Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, July 26, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11847

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Beef Trachea
From: ginny wilken

2.1. Newbie
From: cosmosis62
2.2. Re: Newbie
From: linoleum5017

3a. Re: meat turning brown
From: mousegirls

4a. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: v_rod_or
4b. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Misty
5b. ADMIN/Re: missing stuff in diet
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
From: Shannon Hully

7a. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
From: Cheryl
7b. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
From: costrowski75

8. Re: Questions RE rawfeeding GSP Sambuca--now he has 'die' 'a...
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

9a. how do i encourage a new to raw dog to eat bones?
From: Eloise Stanley
9b. Re: how do i encourage a new to raw dog to eat bones?
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Chicken feet
From: Cheryl
10b. Re: Chicken feet
From: Morledzep@aol.com
10c. Re: Chicken feet
From: costrowski75
10d. Re: Chicken feet
From: Cheryl
10e. Re: Chicken feet
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

11a. Constipation
From: Cheryl
11b. Re: Constipation
From: Sandee Lee
11c. Re: Constipation
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

12a. cooked bones
From: Cheryl
12b. Re: cooked bones
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: cooked bones
From: bluefilly


Messages
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1a. Re: Beef Trachea
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))


On Jul 26, 2007, at 12:54 PM, Marjorie Trebino wrote:

> Jennifer, I was wondering the same thing. The one thing I did
> hear is that
> you might want to grind it up as it is very tough. I would be
> interested to
> know if everyone thinks you should grind it. It is a muscle? Margie


It's cartilage. You can grind it, but it's a heck of a good chew.

ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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2.1. Newbie
Posted by: "cosmosis62" JLW05@aol.com cosmosis62
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

Hello. I am a new member and the owner of a 3 year old 12 pound
pap. I have been feeding him raw for about two years and have been
happy with the results. Before starting raw feeding, my dog's teeth
were collecting tarter, he had oxylate crystals and would scratch
himself continously. Now his teeth are tarter free, he is not having
a problem with crystals and he no longer scratches constantly.
However, it has come to my attention that I have been too limited in
my approach and I want to correct this. I have been feeding my boy
chicken wings, liver. ground beef, canned sardines and canned salmon
with an occasional egg, yogurt or some veggies. I also give him a
supplement and a teaspon of organic apple cider vinegar several times
a week as I read that this can sometimes helpful to dogs who produce
crytals.As a treat, he also gets a bully stick once a week. Yesterday
I fed him a short rib and today purchased but have not yet fed pork
spareribs. Like many people making changes, I feel a bit nervous
about these new bones. I almost bought pork necks but they seemed so
sharp that I got scared. I know that these bones should be fine and
won't pierce his intestines like I fear but I need some reassurance.
Also,as my dog is 12 lbs and these bones weigh half a lb or more,
they far exceed the recommended amount of food he should eat a day.
Also, my guy is not the type of dog to eat only what fills him up -
he will eat until he bursts. Thanks
Jan

Messages in this topic (93)
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2.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

Jan,

There are lots of things to learn before you act! Which cuts are good
for your dog? How long to wait before changing to another meat? What
bones are good, and not so good? I recommend you read the posts on
this list for a week or two, REALLY READ, and look up the website
links for specific topics. THEN, when you feel more confident, go
ahead, slowly....

Lynne


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cosmosis62" <JLW05@...> wrote:
>
> Hello. I am a new member and the owner of a 3 year old 12 pound
> pap. Like many people making changes, I feel a bit nervous
> about these new bones. I almost bought pork necks but they seemed
so
> sharp that I got scared.

> Jan
>


Messages in this topic (93)
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3a. Re: meat turning brown
Posted by: "mousegirls" mousegirls@gmail.com ladysown
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))

exposure to oxygen will cause that to happen.
OR it could be old meat but that tends to turn greenish more than brown.

outcats4@aol.com wrote:
>
> I just bought a package of meat from the foodstore, ground beef, and
> it went
> from very pink to very brown overnight - does anyone know what might
> cause
> this? It was supposed to be antibiotic, hormone free meat.
>
> barb
>
> .
>
>

--

annette
http://ladysown.blogspot.com/
http://rileysowner.livejournal.com/
http://vellengaviews.blogspot.com/

"What a man is alone on his knees before God, that he is, and no more".-Robert Murray M'Cheyne
"I believe that prayer is the measure of the man, spiritually, in a way that nothing else is, so that how we pray is as important a question as we can ever face"- J.I. Packer

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "v_rod_or" v_rod_or@yahoo.com v_rod_or
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***


I think Spike is okay with the bones. He chews them for a long time
before he swallows. I've inspected his mouth afterwards and haven't
seen any sign of injury.

Still, I'm concerned. Should I just keep feeding him raw and letting
him vomit stuff up? Maybe feed him cooked, boneless stuff for a while
until he recovers? Or...? Any advice you can offer would be greatly
appreciated.

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:17 pm ((PDT))

"v_rod_or" <v_rod_or@...> wrote:
> Still, I'm concerned. Should I just keep feeding him raw and
letting
> him vomit stuff up?
*****
My advice would be to start over. Retreat to easily digested meat
(probably skinless chicken breast) and easy to eat bones (chicken
ribs, conveniently attached to aforementioned chicken breast) and
feed less food more often. Make sure the chicken is as minimally
processed as possible--READ the package to make sure the meat isn't
enhanced or injected or "glazed". If you have to try boneless for a
while, you certainly can. Your goal is to get him stabilized.
Perhaps you may have to move to a different protein altogether.

Make sure he's not getting into other things; you might have to visit
the vet to find out if there are mechanical issues preventing him
from digesting his food. And you may have to consider that stress is
the cause of his vomiting. I don't know. These things don't just
happen...there's a reason somewhere.

Feeding cooked meat won't make the meat more digestible; it will be
less digestible.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Misty" MizzBuckaroo@onewest.net mizzbuckaroo
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:58 pm ((PDT))

From Merriam- Webster's Online Dictionary........
low-end
One entry found for low-end.

Main Entry: low-end
Pronunciation: 'lO-"end
Function: adjective
: of, relating to, or being the lowest priced merchandise in a
manufacturer's line; broadly : INEXPENSIVE

Misty @ Rodeo Ranch USA
(aka Panzino's Ranch for Wayward Dogs)
*******************************

> Melissa,
>
> i'm not going to appologize.. "low end" to me means second class..
not as
> good.. and even lowly community college students should have a
better vocabulary
> and be able to find less offensive ways to express themselves.

> Catherine R. (slapping my wrist so ChrisO won't yell at me)
>


Messages in this topic (17)
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5b. ADMIN/Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:18 pm ((PDT))

Okey dokey, I think we can dispense with the high end/low end debate
now. Let's move on.
Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Squad

Messages in this topic (17)
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6a. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:59 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> My 18 month old GSD has been on raw for about a year. The last couple
> of weeks he's been eating grass and vomiting it up in the morning and
> evening before feedings. Just in the last few days he's started just
> all out vomiting with no apparent provocation. Nothing comes up but
> some yellowish foamy clear liquid (maybe a third of a cup). While
> walking him yesterday, he kept making these noises like vomit was
> surprising him in his throat and he was swallowing it back down.
> His poo looks good. Although he did have one event of violently
> bloody diarrhea two weeks ago that cleared up with he next poo.
> He remains happy, spirited, and full of energy.

It's probably just a bile thing, anticipating food and not getting it
when his internal clock tells him he should (that clock can be VERY
wrong, hehe) but keep an eye on the other end. My GSD ended up getting
EPI, which is actually genetic in the breed, at 18 months. It can come
up at any age in dogs. If he is having normal poos he likely does not
have it so keep your fingers crossed that he just thinks he ought to be
being fed and go with the suggestions of not feeding so by-the-
clock. :-)

Shannon in Michigan

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

not sure if I did this right but I gave her a wing, piece with the bone
and the skin. I read someone said something about taking the skin off.
Was I suppose to?

Cheryl


Laura Atkinson wrote:
> You're at the first step of a big change.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:27 pm ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>
> not sure if I did this right but I gave her a wing, piece with the
bone
> and the skin. I read someone said something about taking the skin
off.
> Was I suppose to?
*****
Leave the skin on. Trying to skin a wing is a lost cause. However,
next time--feed something larger/something meatier than a wing.

I recommend you buy a whole boid and hack it into convenient
servings: a wing cut with a chunk of shoulder attached would be
nicely meaty. As for serving size, my 10lb cat often gets a wing
attached to a bit of shoulder meat. A slightly larger meal than her
weight warrants but a good workout and a healthy hunk of meat ("hunk"
being entirely relative).

If you NEED to take the skin off, there are easier pieces to tackle.

Remember, if one meal is "too large", you can comfortably remedy the
problem by feeding a subsequent meal that's "too small". It all
works out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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8. Re: Questions RE rawfeeding GSP Sambuca--now he has 'die' 'a...
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:58 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, Giselle!! Great advice and encouragement. :) Today was better. He
still has diarreha but not so bad--tonight is the true test as it always seems
worse at night in the crate. Also, last night he threw up and it was the
same color as poop with bone in it and undigested chicken gizzards. Horrid
smell--like poop. I hope this is normal and not a back up. He vomitted about 6
times after that outside--I noticed that the last few times were yellow bile and
I was not too concerned. He has never done that before and didn't do it all
today either. I did give him SEBP 2X today--I bought it at a local natural
co-op here this afternoon. I hope it will start to take affect soon. I didn't
have any ground meat so I just mixed it with chicken blood and served it with
his chicken quarter and the 2nd time I just mixed it with water and he lapped
it right up. :)Thanks again for everything!! Tamatha :)





Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

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Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. how do i encourage a new to raw dog to eat bones?
Posted by: "Eloise Stanley" e.l.o.i.s.e@sbcglobal.net faintatheart
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:58 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.***


how do I encourage a new to raw dog to eat bones?
eloise has been on raw for a week and I have yet to see her eat a
bone. her poo is very very runny and I am hoping if i can get her to
eat some bones it will help firm things up. do you think they will
firm up soon as she adjusts to raw with out bones? I am only feeding
turkey right now while we start off. I have offered turkey breast
with some back and ribs attached which she attempted and carefully
and skillfully pulled meat away from the bones. I have also offered
turkey wings that were just looked at during meal times. hmm
any advise would be appreciated.
tia


Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: how do i encourage a new to raw dog to eat bones?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:27 pm ((PDT))

Try chicken? Softer bones! How old and what size is she? Does she have
tooth problems that would prevent chomping on bone?

Turkey may just be a bit too hard for a beginner, of course depending on
size and age. You could try smashing the rib bones a bit. Wings are far
too bony.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Eloise Stanley" <e.l.o.i.s.e@sbcglobal.net>
> how do I encourage a new to raw dog to eat bones?
> eloise has been on raw for a week and I have yet to see her eat a
> bone. her poo is very very runny and I am hoping if i can get her to
> eat some bones it will help firm things up. do you think they will
> firm up soon as she adjusts to raw with out bones? I am only feeding
> turkey right now while we start off. I have offered turkey breast
> with some back and ribs attached which she attempted and carefully
> and skillfully pulled meat away from the bones. I have also offered
> turkey wings that were just looked at during meal times.

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Chicken feet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:59 pm ((PDT))

I saw chicken feet at my grocery store. Can a toy poodle eat these as is?
cheryl
--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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10b. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/26/2007 8:00:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
parkbunny@verizon.net writes:

I saw chicken feet at my grocery store. Can a toy poodle eat these as is?



cheryl,

yep.. probably be more than a snack.. but they are just as good for a toy
poodle as they are for my wolfdogs..

Catherine R.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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10c. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:29 pm ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>
> I saw chicken feet at my grocery store. Can a toy poodle eat these as
is?
*****
You betcha. Big fun.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (22)
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10d. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:35 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


how do I know how much meat is enough for a toy poodle of 6 pounds? In
English. i.e. ounces? how much meat do you determine is on a piece of
the chicken wing to know if that's a meal? is it the whole chicken wing
or a piece of the third of the wing that you feed and call it a meal?
.....Cheryl

Morledzep@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/26/2007 8:00:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> parkbunny@verizon.net writes:
>
> I saw chicken feet at my grocery store. Can a toy poodle eat these as is?
>
>
>
> cheryl,
>
> yep.. probably be more than a snack.. but they are just as good for a toy
> poodle as they are for my wolfdogs..
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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10e. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:08 pm ((PDT))

I would say it's up to the toy poodle. My great danes love the chicken feet, they are like candy here at this house.
I would ask your dog, and see what it says:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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11a. Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:27 pm ((PDT))

Does feeding raw cause constipation?
Cheryl
--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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11b. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:35 pm ((PDT))

Only if you feed too much bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>


> Does feeding raw cause constipation?

Messages in this topic (15)
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11c. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:10 pm ((PDT))

No.
Boy, you ask easy questions:)

Now, when you first start the raw diet, alot of people notice, that thier dogs don't go to the bathroom as often, sometimes not even for a day or two, poop, that is, and that is normal. On the raw diet, your dog uses all the nutrients it needs from the food and only discards what it doesn't. And it likes the raw diet and needs alot of what it has to offer and rarely discards alot, so it does take some time for it to have some to discard. Hense the need to go less and you poopscoop less, or wait a day or two, and it goes to powder, and you can just stomp on it, and it is gone:)

Also, when you are working out the kinks in the diet, say the meat to organ or the bone to meat ratio, some times the poos can get a little runny, you might have to tweek the diet a little, that's where this board comes in real handy, tell everyone here what you are feeding, how often, and what the results are, and they can help you figure out what to do to make it better.

Hope that helps.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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12a. cooked bones
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:28 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***


Are pressure cooker cooked bones considered a type of cooked bone that
should not be fed? if so, there are recipes I see people feeding that
use the pressure cooker and they say those bones are okay? Why is that?
--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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12b. Re: cooked bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:47 pm ((PDT))

Pressure cooked, any kind of cooked bones are not appropriate. I don't know
why anyone would say cooked bones are ok...they are not. Cooked bones are
dangerous, sharp, cause impactions. There are many recipes for cooked foods
but that doesn't make them ok.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>

> Are pressure cooker cooked bones considered a type of cooked bone that
> should not be fed? if so, there are recipes I see people feeding that
> use the pressure cooker and they say those bones are okay? Why is that?

Messages in this topic (4)
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12c. Re: cooked bones
Posted by: "bluefilly" bluefilly@gmail.com bluefillyausi
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:09 pm ((PDT))

imho, cooked is cooked. cooked bones can splinter and cause problems.
but some people feed cooked bones and never have any problems with
them.

i remember feeding a cooked chop bone to a cat, and he got an abscess
inside his mouth when it pierced his cheek inside. needed vet
attention. before i knew better :-)

i guess if pressure cooking causes the bone to totally fall apart, it
would be safe.

kim

On 27/07/07, Cheryl <parkbunny@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Are pressure cooker cooked bones considered a type of cooked bone that
> should not be fed? if so, there are recipes I see people feeding that
> use the pressure cooker and they say those bones are okay? Why is that?

--
--------
My inferiority complex is not as good as yours.
Robin Banks
bluefilly@gmail.com


Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11846

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Vomiting up all raw food?
From: v_rod_or
1b. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: Carol Santangelo
1c. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: mwood8402
1d. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: Laurie Swanson
1e. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: help for IBS
From: lhmcmaken
2b. Re: help for IBS
From: ginny wilken

3a. protein percentage?
From: temy1102
3b. Re: protein percentage?
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: protein percentage?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3d. Re: protein percentage?
From: temy1102
3e. Re: protein percentage?
From: temy1102
3f. Re: protein percentage?
From: Sandee Lee
3g. Re: protein percentage?
From: Jai
3h. Re: protein percentage?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Question from Newbie
From: delcaste

5a. Re: Beef Trachea
From: Marjorie Trebino
5b. Re: Beef Trachea
From: cresco299

6a. Another (less severe) vomiting question
From: millser25
6b. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
From: pet.wellness

7. First Day on Fish a Success...
From: delcaste

8a. feeding game birds to hunting dogs
From: blacty
8b. Re: feeding game birds to hunting dogs
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Morledzep@aol.com


Messages
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1a. Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "v_rod_or" v_rod_or@yahoo.com v_rod_or
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

We started feeding our nine-year-old Dal raw about 3.5 months ago.
He's been eating a variety of chicken, pork, and beef, and organ
meats, with an appropriate level of bone and in as "natural" a state
as possible, and has done great...until last week.

A week ago yesterday, I fed Spike a meal of pork "country ribs" -
mostly meat, with some bone - something I have fed him many times
without incident. He clearly had issues, and ran around the yard
eating grass, throwing up, and dry-heaving. I was up all night with
him as he continued to do this.

He seemed okay the next day but I didn't feed him as a precaution.
The following day I fed a split chicken breast, intending to ease him
back into eating. He puked that up almost immediately, too.

Since then I've tried feeding him various things, but everything raw
comes right back up. He did eat a piece of beef liver that he'd
previously vomited up (eww), but otherwise no luck with raw. He's
kept down some (cooked) sliced turkey, and some bits of leftover
chicken from our dinners, but I have been reluctant to feed him a lot
of cooked meat.

His "mother" is freaked out and wants to buy a bag of Science Diet.
Any thoughts on how best to proceed? I don't want to go back to
feeding Spike dog food, but also don't want him to starve!

Thanks!

Rod & Spike
Eugene, OR

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Has he been relieving himself normally? Or is nothing going in AND nothing
coming out? Is he acting normal other than not being able to hold food
down?

Carol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

Ack! I definitely don't think Science Diet will help at all. Perhaps
he got into something he shouldn't have? I doubt it's the raw, since
he has been doing well for several months now.

Maybe some slippery elm bark powder would help smooth things over?

Your boy won't starve. When my Sheltie was on kibble, he would
routinely puke for two days straight and wouldn't eat for 3 or
sometimes 4 days total.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "v_rod_or" <v_rod_or@...> wrote:
> His "mother" is freaked out and wants to buy a bag of Science Diet.
> Any thoughts on how best to proceed? I don't want to go back to
> feeding Spike dog food, but also don't want him to starve!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rod & Spike
> Eugene, OR
>


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

Aren't country ribs those ones with lots of meat and the bones cut into
little, sharp, pointy pieces? I would be concerned about one of those
causing a problem. Hopefully some more knowledgeable folks will
reply. Hope you get it sorted out soon.

Laurie


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "v_rod_or" <v_rod_or@...> wrote:

> A week ago yesterday, I fed Spike a meal of pork "country ribs" -
> mostly meat, with some bone - something I have fed him many times
> without incident. He clearly had issues, and ran around the yard
> eating grass, throwing up, and dry-heaving. I was up all night with
> him as he continued to do this.
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:49 pm ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Aren't country ribs those ones with lots of meat and the bones cut
into
> little, sharp, pointy pieces? I would be concerned about one of
those
> causing a problem.
*****
All depends on the dog's approach to raw eating and the human's
insanity level but I prefer to not feed country style ribs because the
shoulder blade bone is sliced into narrow, sharp, daggerlike sections
that are just the right shape for precipitious gulping.

A neat and tidy eater--one that does well on turkey necks for example--
would probably be fine with country style "ribs".

Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

okay guys. I will get some chicken today and feed it to her without
skin. see if she will firm up. i love my dogs and these are two
special harls, but with her emotional baggage from being a rescue and
his from being over bred, it is a constant struggle to keep them well.
thanks
take care,
lynda

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:42 pm ((PDT))


On Jul 26, 2007, at 9:37 AM, metra_co wrote:

> would love to go raw for both dogs but with her diarreaha I am just
> afraid to.

Pardon me, but what have you to lose by trying it? The situation you
are in is absolutely horrible, and unfair to the dogs. On the other
hand, many of us - and that's "many" out of 9000 - have had all sorts
of digestive issues resolve on raw. The little upsets your read about
as folks get started are 99% due to operator error, and are easily
adjusted out of the picture. Dogs with chronic digestive stuff are
much more stable on raw, and more easily managed if not stable.

My own opinion is that both your dogs are carrying a load of chronic
impairment which is the big behind-the-scenes cause of their
instability. But the first step is to give them food that is
appropriate, nourishing, and non-irritating - and that's raw. What
else do you need to hear? We'll tell you. Those guys need help.


ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. protein percentage?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:42 pm ((PDT))

i KNOW that this has to be in the archives somewhere, but every time i
search for it, it comes up with too many results and wants me to
narrow it down. and i'm having difficulty coming up with the magical
set of words that will do that.

but how much protein approximately is in raw meat? i think it was
something like 30%? i remember that it is significantly lower than
than the protein content of kibble, right? i was hoping this would be
in raw myths, since many people think that meat is pure protein and it
will hurt your dog's pancreas, but it wasn't.

going for a visit to the vet today. trying to prepare myself with
good answers to any possible objections he may have to my dog's diet.

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:07 pm ((PDT))

"temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
> but how much protein approximately is in raw meat? i think it was
> something like 30%? i remember that it is significantly lower than
> than the protein content of kibble, right? i was hoping this would be
> in raw myths, since many people think that meat is pure protein and it
> will hurt your dog's pancreas, but it wasn't.
>
> going for a visit to the vet today. trying to prepare myself with
> good answers to any possible objections he may have to my dog's diet.
*****
It's generally less than 30%.
Here's the USDA nutrient database. You can look up any meat you are
feeding or want to feed. In fact, if you think it would help, print
out some options for your vet to read.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

You might also tell your vet about www.rawfed.com so he can read
through the Myth section on his own.

I don't recommend trying to out-science a determined vet unless one
really has the story down. Better to not bring it up (why do people
feel they must bring up diet?).

You can't compare dry weight contents to as-fed. You have to make them
both dry weight or both as-fed, and since vets have been taught
(insofar as they've been taught anything about nutrition) dry weight,
you'll have to convert and do you really want to go there?

I suggest if you bring it up and you have to respond with something,
ask him to write down all his concerns and you'll get back to him.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:28 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/26/2007 2:14:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tammy.a.jp@gmail.com writes:

going for a visit to the vet today. trying to prepare myself with
good answers to any possible objections he may have to my dog's diet.



Tammy,

We have/had a vet in AZ that had on his diagnostic questions a spot that said
"Diet" it had Iams, Science Diet and "needs improvement". Every visit they
would ask the same question.. "what do you feed your dog?" and our answer was
always the same "dog food".

And another time we went to a different vet with our old man wolfdog, Jerry
Lee. The vet didn't ask any history questions, just got his weight, measured
him, listened to his vitals and checked his teeth and looked at us and said
"he's quite a specimen, he's in great shape for 7 year old shepherd." Our
response was "that's wonderful news.. especially since he's 15." (Jerry Lee passed
shortly after his 18th birthday)

It's seriously none of your vet's business what you're feeding. You are
paying him to diagnose a problem. Or even for regular wellness visits and
checkups (which we don't do).

IF and only IF your dog has a digestive issue.. vomitting, full blown
diarrhea, possible poisoning.. then and only then it MAY be necessary to discuss diet
with your vet. And then it's still an iffy situation, the vet probably only
needs to know what was the last thing the dog ate before it got sick.

hope i didn't rant too much..
Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:46 pm ((PDT))

thanks for the link chris! very useful. yea, i definitely don't want
to out-science him since... my head for science is not that great.
but he always asks what my dog's diets are, and since i've started
raw, we haven't seen him. we're back now, and he actually didn't ask
this time, ironically enough. he did mention that everyone is looking
quite fine and dandy. since it was my first vet visit since raw, i
was kind of dreading something like, "this dog is about to drop dead,
get me some kibble stat!" but now, even more, i feel confident about
what i'm doing. thanks to all the help from everyone here!

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:03 pm ((PDT))

no, you didn't rant too much, i totally understand what you mean. but
should i ever be put into a situation where i feel i need to defend
myself, i just want to be prepared. i know that from reading about
other people's experiences, vets will sometimes use the raw diet as a
scapegoat for any illnesses, and so i try to avoid the topic with my
vet as well. however, since i've started raw, i haven't seen him, and
he usually always asks what brand of food i'm feeding, how much, etc.
but i'm excited because i'm moving to an area that has several
holistic vets available and hopefully we can begin seeing one that is
understands why i feed raw.

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3f. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:32 pm ((PDT))

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Some examples:
100g beef chuck
19% protein/62% water

100g pork shoulder
17% protein/62% water

100g chicken
18% protein/66% water

100g domestic rabbit
20% protein/73% water

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@gmail.com>


but how much protein approximately is in raw meat? i think it was
something like 30%? i remember that it is significantly lower than
than the protein content of kibble, right? i was hoping this would be
in raw myths, since many people think that meat is pure protein and it
will hurt your dog's pancreas, but it wasn't.


Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3g. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Jai" JRedwing@alltel.net onesupercat
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:00 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for this information.
Jai
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandee Lee" <rlee@plix.com>
To: <rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] protein percentage?


> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
> Some examples:
> 100g beef chuck
> 19% protein/62% water
>
> 100g pork shoulder
> 17% protein/62% water
>
> 100g chicken
> 18% protein/66% water
>
> 100g domestic rabbit
> 20% protein/73% water
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@gmail.com>
>
>
> but how much protein approximately is in raw meat? i think it was
> something like 30%? i remember that it is significantly lower than
> than the protein content of kibble, right? i was hoping this would be
> in raw myths, since many people think that meat is pure protein and it
> will hurt your dog's pancreas, but it wasn't.
>
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying
> on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated
> with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You
> agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal
> responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs,
> cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you
> don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.20/919 - Release Date: 7/26/2007
> 9:56 AM
>

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3h. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

"temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
> i
> was kind of dreading something like, "this dog is about to drop dead,
> get me some kibble stat!"
*****
This is too funny!
Really, it sounds like something Groucho Marx might say, were he still
with us.

Good to know the visit was uneventful, a let down even.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Question from Newbie
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding raw now for about 4 months? They will eat ANYTHING.
I feed twice a day sometimes only once if the portion is big. They're
20 & 21 pds so 6 and 7 ounces should do it right? The bad gulper,
Violet, will use her paws to tear but tries to swallow the big pieces
anyway and throws them back up. The other pug eats I didn't make
myself clear. He just won't touch it eith his paws. He chews and
chews and chews and goes round and round....I guess I'll have to feed
the gulper an entire chicken. Thank you Laurie, I am hoping that with
time they'll take it easy.

Silvina and the pugs

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> If it's small enough for them to gulp, then it's not big enough! >
> If you give your dogs bigger, more complicated things they have to
work
> at and rip the meat off of, their stomachs will be more ready for
> what's coming in, and it will be in more manageable pieces going
down.
> That should help with the vomiting.
> Laurie
>
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Beef Trachea
Posted by: "Marjorie Trebino" mtrebino39@hotmail.com marjoriettt
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Jennifer, I was wondering the same thing. The one thing I did hear is that
you might want to grind it up as it is very tough. I would be interested to
know if everyone thinks you should grind it. It is a muscle? Margie


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Beef Trachea
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

> Should I feed a whole meal of just trachea or should I add it to one
of their other meals

I'm no expert at this myself, but I have been feeding one of my dogs
beef trachea for two weeks now. I typically cut the trachea into
quarters and give it every other day or so. There's no need to grind
it up. My 30lb aussie shepard loves them to death! It typically takes
her 10-15 minutes just to sit down and chew through it. I feed it
along side what ever else she was getting that day.

She'll choose the trachea over a bone day.

Jeff


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Another (less severe) vomiting question
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

My 18 month old GSD has been on raw for about a year. The last couple
of weeks he's been eating grass and vomiting it up in the morning and
evening before feedings. Just in the last few days he's started just
all out vomiting with no apparent provocation. Nothing comes up but
some yellowish foamy clear liquid (maybe a third of a cup). While
walking him yesterday, he kept making these noises like vomit was
surprising him in his throat and he was swallowing it back down.
His poo looks good. Although he did have one event of violently
bloody diarrhea two weeks ago that cleared up with he next poo.
He remains happy, spirited, and full of energy.

Have an of you experienced this? Is it something to worry about?

Thanks,
Erica

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

That sounds to me like the bile vomit issue. Did you change his
feeding times at all? Sounds like he's expecting his meals a bit early
and his stomach is all prepared and when the food doesn't come fast
enough, his system ejects all the bile. I would try feeding more
randomly, and perhaps less frequently (you could try going to once a
day)--it worked for me and countless others!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> My 18 month old GSD has been on raw for about a year. The last couple
> of weeks he's been eating grass and vomiting it up in the morning and
> evening before feedings.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> My 18 month old GSD has been on raw for about a year. The last couple
> of weeks he's been eating grass and vomiting it up in the morning and
> evening before feedings. Just in the last few days he's started just
> all out vomiting with no apparent provocation. Nothing comes up but
> some yellowish foamy clear liquid (maybe a third of a cup). While
> walking him yesterday, he kept making these noises like vomit was
> surprising him in his throat and he was swallowing it back down.

Yes, my dog has digestive problems like you describe - vomiting "in
his mouth," vomiting a yellowish, foamy liquid (waterbrash), eating
grass. I attribute it to immune problems likely caused by too many
vaccinations. I have also been advised by a conventional vet to give
him 50 mg of Zantac (half a 100mg tab.) He rarely needs the Zantac and
has improved a lot since we switched to raw and worked with a homeopathic.
Pamela

www.pet-wellness-update.com
***Sign our petition to exempt sick and senior pets in Texas from
rabies vaccinations***


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. First Day on Fish a Success...
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

I got some fish the other day (Tilapia) and fed one to the dogs today.
At first, nobody would touch it they just smelled it and looked at me.
I started cutting very small pieces of the fish and two of them ate it
right up! (Thanks Chris!) Mostly 'cause they were watching each other
and no one wanted to be outdone :) My gulper ate the most. The
third "child" licked and gummed and finally wanted nothing to do with
it. The Pittie ran off with the head and laid by it for a while but I
had to take it away after @ an hour....Maybe next time I can just plunk
the fish down and they'll eat away.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. feeding game birds to hunting dogs
Posted by: "blacty" Ty@wetlandsod.com blacty
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:47 pm ((PDT))

I was thinking of using my game bird carcases to feed to my bird dogs.
Do any of you have any experience doing this? Would I have to worry
about my dogs developing a taste for them to where they will eat the
bird they are supposed to retrieve?

Ty

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: feeding game birds to hunting dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:31 pm ((PDT))

"blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> I was thinking of using my game bird carcases to feed to my bird dogs.
> Do any of you have any experience doing this? Would I have to worry
> about my dogs developing a taste for them to where they will eat the
> bird they are supposed to retrieve?
*****
If your hunting dog eats the game it's suppose to hunt, that's a
training issue not a raw food issue. A trained hunting dog understands
it may not eat its job. I recommend you review your dog's basic
training to make sure both of you are clear on the concept.

My retrievers are trained to retrieve the bird in market condition and
to sit to flush (although sometimes I do have to yell "siddown!"). My
big Lab retrieves live bitsy baby birds and will not--no way, never, uh-
uh--eat rabbit or whole fish. My heathen golden bitch that eats whole
baby goats and rabbits and chickens will kill but otherwise leave
untouched bunnies that she manages to catch.

It may be that in moments of extreme temptation you dog might break or
kill a wounded bird, but I also see this in kibblefed dogs. Since it's
a time honored practice to give the dog heads and guts or the carcass
after breasting out a duck, my guess is your fears are unfounded IF
your hunting buddy is properly trained.

If you are still concerned, don't feed the carcasses.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/26/2007 9:24:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mwood8402@hotmail.com writes:

Many times, "low
end"=better deals imo. Though I shop around everywhere for good
deals. I don't know why you find that offensive.



Melissa,

i'm not going to appologize.. "low end" to me means second class.. not as
good.. and even lowly community college students should have a better vocabulary
and be able to find less offensive ways to express themselves.

Apparently my sensitivity isn't shared by the rest of the group.. but i find
prejudice in any form offensive. sorry for taking this so far off topic..

Catherine R. (slapping my wrist so ChrisO won't yell at me)

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11845

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Fish
From: oldhatt45

2a. Re: help for IBS
From: lhmcmaken
2b. Re: help for IBS
From: metra_co
2c. Re: help for IBS
From: chele519
2d. Re: help for IBS
From: mwood8402

3a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: Margaret Martell
3b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: different kinds of meat
From: costrowski75

5a. ADMIN/Re: Heartworm positive?
From: costrowski75

6a. meat turning brown
From: outcats4@aol.com
6b. Re: meat turning brown
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: meat turning brown
From: chandler_baby
6d. Re: meat turning brown
From: Casey Post

7a. Re: Newbie here
From: paperfibe

8a. Re: Gulf of Mexico Fish
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Life after chicken
From: Lauren
10b. Re: Life after chicken
From: mwood8402

11a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: mwood8402

12a. Newbie don't know my number yet
From: Cheryl
12b. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
From: Laura Atkinson
12c. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
From: rosey031801
12d. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
From: Cheryl
12e. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
From: Laura Atkinson

13a. Beef Trachea
From: Jennifer Scheytt


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Re: Fish
Posted by: "oldhatt45" c.d.brengel@att.net oldhatt45
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

From what I know of fish, there are only 3 varieties of Shark that
can/should be eaten by anyone, dogs included. Mako, is one of the good
to eat fish. I don't remember the other 2 since I don't fish for
them. Sharks other then the 3 good ones, excrete their waste through
their skin, making it and the meat somewhat toxic.

In terms of other good to eat fish in the gulf that you might be likely
to catch are; tuna, grouper, and redfish. THose are the only ones that
come to mind right now, there are probably others.

Hope this helps.

Drew

Messages in this topic (143)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:52 am ((PDT))

thanks to all for your thoughts. 6 times we have cleaned up since i
posted. sleeping inside she soiled her bed. am going to try the clay
and get her stable. your kind words have encouraged me. this is very
hard. thanks.
take care,
Lynda

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:47 am ((PDT))

would love to go raw for both dogs but with her diarreaha I am just
afraid to. In the reading of the posts to this group, it seems upset
stomach and bowels is commen. Sorry for this long post but I am
confused about what to do, and very sad that both dogs can no longer be
housedogs.

Rusty used to get explosive, watery diarrhea, in bouts that would last
a couple days and I would need to take him outside about every hour-and-
a-half all night long. It used to happen every couple of months, then
progressed to every week or two from Jan-March.

I finally switched him (from the "best" k***le) to raw food in the
beginning of April, and he has not had even a single episode since. The
first week or two of raw he did have some loose, mucousy stools, but
not any diarrhea. (And he only had one accident, which was completely
my fault, because after a few successful days, I gave him two new types
of meat plus a piece of liver--verrry stupid of me!)

Metra


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:30 am ((PDT))

Lynda, one of my dogs was the same way before we started raw. One
night I was up almost every 1/2 hr with her. No one could ever tell me
what was wrong. As soon as she got off kibble and the grains, it all
cleared up. She has had solid stool consistently since then, 1 1/2
years now. Even my skeptical, conventional vet agreed with me that she
was not digesting the grains. If you are leaving them outside anyway
right now, why not try it and see what happens? I did not have any
problems, in fact, the loose stools cleared up in just a couple days
and she never had the mucous stuff.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
>
> Hello. I have two great Danes. Both have been on the best kibble and
> now on canned. My male has had skin issues his whole life,
>I would love to go raw for both dogs but
> with her diarreaha I am just afraid to.


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:33 am ((PDT))

All I can tell you is that I switched my IBD dog to raw and it's the
only thing that has ever helped him. If you want some tips on starting
out, let me know.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
>I would love to go raw for both dogs but with her diarreaha I am just
afraid to.


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am ((PDT))

: Sorry for the delay but I've spent all evening at the vets weighing my
options. Sassy was diagnosed with Parvo this afternoon, and In my
vets eyes, one of the worst cases he's seen in a while. While I'm
relived that her condition was not brought on by her raw diet, I
almost wish it was. That way I could get my slap on the wrist bring
her home.

Jeff and Sassy
*********
Jeff, I'm very sorry to hear about the Parvo. My thoughts and hopes are with you, your wife and poor, sick Sassy! Hang in there!
Margaret & Zahra



---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:58 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@...>
wrote:
>
> Sassy was diagnosed with Parvo this afternoon, and In my
> vets eyes, one of the worst cases he's seen in a while.

I'm really sorry to hear that, Jeff. I hope it all works out for the
best.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: different kinds of meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:43 am ((PDT))

"doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> Can I feed cod fish and venision meat?
*****
Yes. The fish should be raw and unprocessed. Venison is perfectly
lovely; feed as much of it as you can.


I understand to start with small
> amount. I currently feed 400gms of meat a day. Does that mean for
fish
> as well?
*****
Yes, it's generally more comfortable for human and dog alike to
introduce new foods little by little. Start with a small amount of
fish, then as your whippet gains experience with it you can feed larger
portions.

What I would do, I think, is feed a small amount of fish separate from
the main meal, then feed the "real" meal later, as I normally would.
Or perhaps I would feed fish as the meal du jour but make the meal a
scant one that would with successful experience gradually increase in
size.

But you can toss a chunk of fish into the "real" meal if you want. You
know your dog's eating habits, I don't!

My dogs would probably eat around the fish chunk.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. ADMIN/Re: Heartworm positive?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:50 am ((PDT))

Please take this topic to DogHealth, RawChat or private; it is not
appropriate for this list unless one is looking for rawfeeding support.
Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. meat turning brown
Posted by: "outcats4@aol.com" outcats4@aol.com barb5ducks
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))

I just bought a package of meat from the foodstore, ground beef, and it went
from very pink to very brown overnight - does anyone know what might cause
this? It was supposed to be antibiotic, hormone free meat.

barb

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: meat turning brown
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:12 am ((PDT))

outcats4@... wrote:
>
> I just bought a package of meat from the foodstore, ground beef, and
it went
> from very pink to very brown overnight - does anyone know what might
cause
> this? It was supposed to be antibiotic, hormone free meat.
*****

What you see is meat "rusting"; you see it because the meat surface was
exposed to air and there were no preservatives added to to keep it
fresh-looking and pink. Deeper inside, the meat should still be pink.

The meat is fine.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: meat turning brown
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:36 am ((PDT))

>
> I just bought a package of meat from the foodstore, ground beef, and
it went
> from very pink to very brown overnight - does anyone know what might
cause
> this? It was supposed to be antibiotic, hormone free meat.

Barb, it is my understanding that some meat counters will all
something to their meat to give it a nice red color. As it ages, that
red color goes away giving the meat an old appearance. Even air will
brown it sooner too.

when you buy meat from a fresh meat locker, the meat is never that
bright red color and it has a much better smell.

someone else maybe will have a better answer for you.

Roxane

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Re: meat turning brown
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:57 am ((PDT))

>I just bought a package of meat from the foodstore, ground beef, and it
>went
> from very pink to very brown overnight - does anyone know what might cause
> this? It was supposed to be antibiotic, hormone free meat.

Oxidation. No biggie. While it may look less appealing to you, it's fine.

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Newbie here
Posted by: "paperfibe" CollageStudio@bendbroadband.com paperfibe
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))

thanks Pamela, The boys so far are loving this and think that each
meal is a treat!..I've not fed chicken yet so far just elk. their
poo is now a white color and very little compared to huge poo
piles!..Doc seems less itchy today, so I think its starting to come
around!
:)
deb and the boys
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pet.wellness" <pet.wellness@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "paperfibe" <CollageStudio@>
wrote:
> >
> > Hi all, I've been reading posts and thought I'd better introduce
> > myself and my new raw fed crew two one year old bulldogs Doc and
Wyatt..
> > They have been eating Canidae kibble until last week. I made the
> > decision to switch to Raw and have started the boys with elk so
far.
> > Heres a link to their blog of their change over.
> > http://docwyattraw.blogspot.com/
> >
> Love your blog! Great looking guys too.
>
> I also have an itchy dog. I stopped feeding chicken. He is less and
> less itchy every day. It is such a relief! You might want to go
slowly
> in adding variety.
> Pamela
>


Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Gulf of Mexico Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

"michelleraia1" <michelleraia1@...> wrote:
>
> We are going deep sea fishing soon. Does anyone know which deep sea
> fish out of the Gulf of Mexico would be safe? King fish and shark
are
> popularly caught. Thanks.
*****
Michelle, you posted this question on July 25 and I provided an answer
on July 25.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/137180

If this is not adequate, please repost the specifics you seek.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:07 am ((PDT))

"Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...> wrote:
I've
> actually managed to get mine on whole prey so I just buy them small
> animals on-line and feed them those. It's so satisfying to hear them
> crunching away!
*****
When I can afford them, I will. But since there are other less pricey
sources for crunchy bones, no one is going without.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Life after chicken
Posted by: "Lauren" lfunaiol@yahoo.com lfunaiol
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eve <loulou_bean@...> wrote:
>
Does anyone
> have a recommendation for the introduction of a 2nd
> meat?
>


Hi Eve,

I also recommend pork as a nice 2nd meat. My 4 dogs eat lots of it
because it is cheap, tasty, and has nice soft edible bones. Typical
cuts I buy: picnic roast, spare ribs, and country ribs. You can
usually get the butcher at the market to cut the roast into smaller
pieces that are closer to meal size. Spare ribs should be fed in small
slabs of attached ribs. Cut any tiny bone slivers out of country ribs
before you give them to the dog.

Lauren Funaiole

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Life after chicken
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

For what it's worth, the second protein I introduced was beef and we
never had an incident. I introduced it painfully slowly though. I
think I read that the easiest way is to do turkey then pork then beef.
Or something like that. But I kind of think you can do whatever you
want. Good luck!

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eve <loulou_bean@...> wrote:
>Does anyone
> have a recommendation for the introduction of a 2nd
> meat? We've read mixed reviews about beef. Any
> advice would be great.
> Eve, Dan, and Louis
>


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

There is no need to be offended. Please notice the quotation marks
around "high end" and "low end". I don't know how else to convey the
meaning. I'm not an upper crusty rich folk... in fact I'm a college
student. I'm quite sure you have more cash on hand than I do right
now. I was saying that many times there is a better selection at
grocery stores where the prices aren't as high. Many times, "low
end"=better deals imo. Though I shop around everywhere for good
deals. I don't know why you find that offensive.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
> Melissa,
>
> not all of us are upper crusty rich folks that only shop at "high
end"
> groceries.. and yes.. i'm offended.
>
> Catherine R.
>


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Newbie don't know my number yet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT))

Hi all,
I'm also a newbie.
Quite overwhelmed at the thought of thinking of a new diet.
I know I have plenty of files to read, links and so forth but i have to
say this is a lot to swallow. I just don't know how far to go with the
raw. Meaning. I have to work and I don't have a lot of money for meat. I
think the reason a lot of pet owners don't do raw may be because of the
time and thought involved. Maybe there is no time and thought but for
me, it seems like I will be learning a different language. I brought up
the thought of raw to a colleague and now, we don't speak any more. Just
because, she would never feed her dog raw.
So, i feel like I sit alone trying to figure my way around how to feed
my 18 week young puppy, poodle. I have given her Natures Variety and she
does like it. I need to add some more to her diet as I forget to take
out the medallions or I feel that she only has two varieties to choose
from. I will be going back to the food store today and see if they will
take back this Solid Gold puppy. I thought she liked it but there it
will sit for about 2 days. Then, I give her the Natures Variety and she
chows.
I feel that that is too much soft food also. Is it?

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:33 am ((PDT))

You're at the first step of a big change.

None of us have unlimited amounts of money to feed the dogs, we find
deals, watch for expiring grocery store mark downs, find other
like-minded raw feeders and order in bulk, etc.

However, you'll find that the overall investment in her health, by
feeding raw, will be more than offset by a decrease in visits to the
vets, no dentals, and, in general her increased health.

Start easy. Go pick up a bag or package of chicken quarters or a
whole chicken (they're frequently on sale for less than $1/lb) , chop
into appropriate service size pieces for her. It really is just that
easy to get started. And while you're working your way through the
first couple of weeks of chicken, you can hang out here and prepare
for adding the second protein source, organs and all sorts of other
fun things.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

It sounds like you need to read, read and read some more. I read all
posts for two weeks before I even thought about switching, then I felt
confident I could do it. It is not complicated once you learn what the
dog needs. Just hand your dog a chunk of meat once a day, or twice if
you want. No canned cra*, no kibble, just raw meat. It's very
affordable if you get the meat when it's on sale, just like most of us
do for our human families.With a small dog it will be so cheap. My dog
at 25lbs. eats less than a lb. a day. I feed him for under a dollar a
day, sometimes for .39 cents a day when the sales are there on chicken.
Good luck
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12d. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES AND TRIM THE TEXT BELOW WHERE YOUR SIGNATURE WOULD BE IF YOU HAD INCLUDED IT. ***


Wow. Now that's what I like. A response I can follow. thank you Laura.
Will do it today. :)

Laura Atkinson wrote:
> You're at the first step of a big change.
>
> None of us have unlimited amounts of money to feed the dogs, we find
> deals, watch for expiring grocery store mark downs, find other
> like-minded raw feeders and order in bulk, etc.
>
> However, you'll find that the overall investment in her health, by
> feeding raw, will be more than offset by a decrease in visits to the
> vets, no dentals, and, in general her increased health.
>
> Start easy. Go pick up a bag or package of chicken quarters or a
> whole chicken (they're frequently on sale for less than $1/lb) , chop
> into appropriate service size pieces for her. It really is just that
> easy to get started. And while you're working your way through the
> first couple of weeks of chicken, you can hang out here and prepare
> for adding the second protein source, organs and all sorts of other
> fun things.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12e. Re: Newbie don't know my number yet
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:10 am ((PDT))

You're welcome. The KISS (Keep it simple, silly...which I find nicer
than the more commonly used alternative) usually works for me <grin>

If you hit my website www.kaossiberians.com and click, I think on the
Natural Rearing link, down about 2/3 of the page is a Raw Feeding
Primer. It's just something I threw together to give prospective pet
buyers somewhere to start when they start looking at feeding raw, as
my puppies will only be going to raw feeding homes.

On 7/26/07, Cheryl <parkbunny@verizon.net> wrote:
> Wow. Now that's what I like. A response I can follow. thank you Laura.
> Will do it today. :)
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Beef Trachea
Posted by: "Jennifer Scheytt" jscheytt@yahoo.com jscheytt
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

I just got my order from TPF and I orded some beef trachea as I have heard it is a good thing to feed for joints and glucosimine and since my beardies are active in herding and agility this sounded good to me. I am just not sure how often I should feed it and how much at a time. Should I feed a whole meal of just trachea or should I add it to one of their other meals (I feed twice a day). I am also excited to try the whole tripe strips.
Thanks Jenny and the beardies


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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11844

There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: help for IBS
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Questions RE rawfeeding GSP Sambuca--now he has 'die' 'a' 'rear'
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Raw Chicken
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3b. Re: Raw Chicken
From: Nathalie Poulin

4a. Re: Newbie here
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: Newbie here
From: pet.wellness

5. different kinds of meat
From: doreenchui

6a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: cresco299

7. Re: Newbie With a Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

8a. Re: Question from Newbie
From: Laurie Swanson

9.1. Metabolism - WAS: Re: recreational bones
From: Laurie Swanson

10a. Re: Duck
From: Katie

11a. Re: Heartworm positive?
From: Katie

12a. Re: Last nights disaster
From: Marilyn Neil

13.1. Re: turkey necks
From: Alan & Andrea Southern

14. Gulf of Mexico Fish
From: michelleraia1

15a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Shannon Hully


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
>
> Her problem is diarrhea
> that starts for no reason I can figure out, and can continue
> for more
> then a week.

> I would love to go raw for both dogs but
> with her diarreaha I am just afraid to. In the reading of the
posts
> to this group, it seems upset stomach and bowels is commen.

Hey Lynda,
You need to get these dogs on a raw diet. Check out my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Follow the
recomendations on my page and your dogs stools should firm up pretty
quickly. You might want to remove the skin and fat from the backs
for a couple of weeks until the dogs adjust. This will help if not
eliminate the diarrhea problem as well as the skin problem.

Yes, sometimes newly switched dogs do have digestive upsets, but
often a dog with a diarrhea problem will clear up with a lot of bone
in the diet. Backs have a lot of bone.

After you get your dogs started, Read the book "Work Wonders" by
Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at http://www.rawmeatybones.com


You can download it in PDF format for free. Just click on the
picture of the book on the main page.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html


Good luck and keep us posted.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm


Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Questions RE rawfeeding GSP Sambuca--now he has 'die' 'a' 'rear'
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Tamatha!

> Sambuca has been RAW fed for a week and a half now. He has been
getting
> minimally/or not enhanced chicken quarters, whole fryer chickens
quartered,
> gizzards, and a few hearts for over a week with no problems.
>
> Now two days ago, in a moment of daftness, I decide to get some
chicken liver
> and instead of giving him a small amount (I found out after I gave
it to him)
> I loaded the boy up with about 2 1/2 Tablespoons worth in a day.
Too much?
> Yeah for him I think so. :)

**** We all learn by our mistakes. Sloooow introduction of squidgy ick
organs in *tiny* amounts is safer for pup and keeping sanity in the
household. ****
>
> And to make it worse, that same day I also bought different chicken
than I
> had been feeding (Perdue--enhanced with 12% chicken "broth")--again,
mistake as
> I forgot to read the package. So along with the enhanced chicken
and the
> 'McD's supersized' serving of liver my boy developed explosive
diarrhea that day
> and the next. The last two nights and days have not been too
incredibly fun
> and lesson learned--never shop on three hours of sleep and always
read the fine
> print . . .

**** Have you been having insomnia, too? : ) No fun. ****
>
> Today is the third day of the upset tummy, but it has improved
because when I
> realized my mistake yesterday evening, I made a point to return to
the store
> early this morning and buy the right chicken for him. I bought what
I had
> been feeding him previously with no problems--chicken without
enhancements and no
> additional liver for the time being.

**** Good plan!!! ****
>
> His poop is better today (more frothy (sorry) now and mucousy--but
not as
> watery but again not yet solid). DH was freaking out on me in the
wee hours of
> the morning and discussing the horrid K word to firm him up
temporarily. NOPE
> not going happen and didn't. :) HA!

**** Slippery Elm Bark Powder can help with soothing his digestive
system and returning everything to normal. Just mix 1 tsp to 1 oz of
ground or minced chicken and roll into a meatball. You can make a few
days worth up at a time, and feed before every meal, and in between
meals, too, if needed.

http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm ****
>
> So today is the first day of returning to serve him the non-enhanced
chicken
> and I am wondering when he will be back to "normal" as far as his
poops are
> concerned? I did notice today was better and not so sudden and
frequent nor as
> volatile. :)

**** I would offer plenty of water, even low/no salt chicken broth to
make sure he's well hydrated. You could fast him for a couple meals or
for the day, and dose him with the SEBP several times. I would also
cut back slightly (by about a 1/4) his portions on the first or second
day back on solid food. Feed though whole chicken parts and dose with
SEBP before each meal. Return him to full portions after 1-2 days or
temporarily add an extra meal for a few days to compensate. He'll get
back to normal much sooner this way. ****
>
> How long is too long for diarrhea for a 9 week old pup?

**** You want to be very proactive about avoiding diarrhea and even
frequent runny stools in young pups, they dehydrate quickly. Offer
plenty of fresh cold water, and even the chicken broth I mentioned
above. ****
>
> Next question. . . if it was just the liver I think I would have
noticed an
> improvement by the third day of not feeding anymore, correct? Going
on this
> assumption, I think it was more of the enhanced chicken that has
caused this
> issue. Possibly it could have been a double whammy too.

**** I Dunno. Its your best guess. I would proceed cautiously with
organs, adding only pinky fingernail sized amounts once daily and
gradually increasing first the frequency of feeding organs, then the
amounts. Organs need only be 10% of the diet, and there's no hurry to
add them. Also, I be very careful about reading labels from now on. ****
>
> Also, it couldn't be from switching him from K (breeder's) to raw
and it just
> finally taking effect after 1 1/2 weeks could it? He had been doing
so well
> until I made those two dietary changes, unfortunately all in the
same day.
>
> What do you think?

**** I don't think so, myself. It may just be that he will be an
individual you have to introduce new stuff to carefully and
cautiously. Or maybe not. If there is a reoccurrence of diarrhea,
without any dietary reasons, you might should get him checked for
parasites. ****
>
> P.S. Anyone have any good human recipes for cooking 10lbs + of
enhanced
> chicken quarters and bone in breasts??? ;) LOL! Guess what is for
dinner
> tonight. . .

**** Fire up the grill!!! Its BBQ time!! Roasted ears of corn, cole
slaw and watermelon, too! ; ) ****
>
> Another note. . how can you tell the difference between too skinny
and a healthy
> lean? I can now see a waistline on him and feel more ribs, but I
also wonder
> if he looks "too caved in" on the sides and can feel his backbone
more. What
> is normal?? Again, Sambuca is 9 weeks old today and he weighed 16.9
lbs when
> I got him 1 1/2 weeks ago and today he weighed 19 lbs. He is also
getting
> taller so that might be part of the weight gain too.
>
**** Its a "know thy dog" thing. If you've not had dogs, or pups
before, he's your learner. : ) After you get him over this gastric
distress episode, you want to feed him as much at each meal as he will
eat without causing loose stools, 3-4 times a day. On raw, he should
be able to gain weight commensurate with his skeletal growth, without
too much disparity. Sometimes, tho', pups do get a little thin
looking/feeling while having a growth spurt, then even out and catch
up until next time. I think he's looking a bit thin now because of the
upset his body's been going through the past few days. He should catch
his weight up soon after you get him back on regular meals with no
dreaded 'D'. Get used to feeling him all over and looking at him
daily, so you can get a 'feel' for how his ribs, backbone and hipbones
are when they're padded by a bit of weight gain. Pups shouldn't be
roly poly, but a little meat on their bones is a good thing. : )****

> Also, might be worth mentioning here. . the past two days I have
noticed an
> occasional clicking sound when he walks. Almost sounds like nails
on hardwood
> floors but it does it on carpet and on the grass except a little
deeper. He
> doesn't seem to notice or act any different nor be in any pain. I
took him to
> a reg vet today (1st visit and last as we are in the process of
finding a
> holistic vet who's views are similar to ours). The vet mentioned he
was tender in
> his left rear leg near the knee and that both knees had cartiledge
deposits
> on them and they might be flapping around. Has anyone heard of this
esp at 9
> weeks?? He said we need to watch it and if it worsens or if we see any
> lameness we need X-rays. As of right now just wait it out and
monitor him and he may
> outgrow it.
>
> Again, Sambuca doesn't act any different and the clicking doesn't
happen all
> the time. The vet 'mentioned' (ha using that word lightly) that it
could be a
> result of his current inadequate diet. Tsk Tsk, right? Yeah right.
Anyway,
> he suggested I supplement for the "best nutrition"(get this. . you
ready. . )
> with K? And Purina no doubt. YIKES! I knew this visit would be
unpleasant
> but never realized to this extreme. He said dogs are not carnivores
but
> omnivores and they also need vitamins that only Purina K can
provide. Sounds like
> the commercial, doesn't it?? I almost silently laughed myself into
hysteria.
> So again last visit, but my biggest concern was the clicking. Any
feedback?
>
**** I would be sure to allow him frequent play sessions, but not wild
tearing around, especially on slippery surfaces or with other dogs or
pups. No jumping up or off of things. I would severely limit stairs,
making sure he is on lead and WALKING up and down them, under
supervision. No enforced walks for exercise, just short leisurely
ones. Bone and connective tissue in his diet will add glucosamine to
help him build strong bones and tendons. It wouldn't hurt to give him
the occasional trachea and chicken foot to chew on.
No comment on the vet. ****
>
> Am I doing something wrong since I have noticed a visual weight loss
even
> though it may be how he is supposed to look? I know this is the
only beginning
> stages and until the diarrhea clears up I want to wait on adding
another
> protein source. I doubt it is what I am doing but thought I would
ask in case I am
> missing something simple.

**** Its much better to let things get normal, then gradually add a
new protein, then another, etc. You'll have the rest of his long life
to feed him a variety of proteins and body parts and organs, take it
slow for now. No hurry, no worry. : ) ****
>
> Thanks again for your advice and for your patience in reading my
diatribe. :)

**** NPs, keep us posted!!! ****
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
>
> Tamatha and Sambuca (GSD)


Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Raw Chicken
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:44 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/25/2007 6:35:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kristinasantes@yahoo.com writes:

I have been giving her chicken breasts with no bones. I thought it
used to be said that dogs can choke on small chicken bones. Please
correct me if i am wrong. Can I give just a whole chicken wihh all the
bones there?
Sorry, I am relly new to this, but I have best wishes for me dog :)



Kristina,

that would be true of cooked bones.. but RAW bones are edible.. completely.

the dogs need the calcium in the bones.. so they can NOT be left out, but
they don't need bone in every meal. approximately (just guess, no need to
measure) 10% of the over all diet should be edible bone. And chicken bones are
about as edible as bones get. lamb, goat and pork bones are also great for most
dogs.

NEVER feed a bare naked bone, all bones should be well covered in the meat
that comes on them naturally.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (12)
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3b. Re: Raw Chicken
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:36 am ((PDT))

If they were cooked bones, then there is definitely a
huge chance of her choking or getting impacted.
But raw chicken bones are highly edible and digestible
for your doggy! Not to mention full of nutrients!

Nathalie


> I have been giving her chicken breasts with no
> bones. I thought it
> used to be said that dogs can choke on small chicken
> bones.


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Messages in this topic (12)
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4a. Re: Newbie here
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:34 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "paperfibe" <CollageStudio@...>
wrote:
>
Hey Deb,
I strongly suggest you check out my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

After that read the
book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at

http://www.rawmeatybones.com and download it in PDF format for free.
Just click on the picture of the book on the main page.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (19)
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4b. Re: Newbie here
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "paperfibe" <CollageStudio@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all, I've been reading posts and thought I'd better introduce
> myself and my new raw fed crew two one year old bulldogs Doc and Wyatt..
> They have been eating Canidae kibble until last week. I made the
> decision to switch to Raw and have started the boys with elk so far.
> Heres a link to their blog of their change over.
> http://docwyattraw.blogspot.com/
>
Love your blog! Great looking guys too.

I also have an itchy dog. I stopped feeding chicken. He is less and
less itchy every day. It is such a relief! You might want to go slowly
in adding variety.
Pamela

Messages in this topic (19)
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5. different kinds of meat
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:34 am ((PDT))

Can I feed cod fish and venision meat? How much of fish meat can I feed
at one time? My whippet weighs 14.5kg. I understand to start with small
amount. I currently feed 400gms of meat a day. Does that mean for fish
as well?
Doreen

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:35 am ((PDT))

> That said, I wish we'd hear from Jeff an update on his Sassy.
> Pamela
>

Sorry for the delay but I've spent all evening at the vets weighing my
options. Sassy was diagnosed with Parvo this afternoon, and In my
vets eyes, one of the worst cases he's seen in a while. While I'm
relived that her condition was not brought on by her raw diet, I
almost wish it was. That way I could get my slap on the wrist bring
her home.

It is truly amazing how quickly I've been turned into a pariah by the
neighbors and family. They all assume that because I've been feeding
my kids this horrible diet, that it's my fault sassy is so ill. It
just makes me want to shake the snot out of each and every one of
them. None of them have lick of sense or the ability to think for
themselves.

Per our vet, we are looking at dropping $1,500-$2,000 over the next 5
days to keep her on an IV and antibiotics. I pulled every string I
could but cannot fund her treatment. After several hours of calling,
I found another hospital who "quoted" me $400-$800. So tomorrow my
wife will transfer her from our current vet to the new one. I really
hate bargain shopping for health services, but it's either that or
have her put to sleep.

I thank everyone for their posts and their concern. My wife is truly
amazed that there are so many caring "strangers" out here in yahoo
land. I even received several e-mails from nice people wishing me and
Sassy the best.

I don't care what my father-in-law thinks about you, you're all a
great group of people!

Jeff and Sassy

Messages in this topic (17)
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7. Re: Newbie With a Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:35 am ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/25/2007 11:01:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com _ (mailto:summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com?Subject=
Re:%20Newbie%20With%20A%20Feeding%20Dilemma%20-Won't%20Eat%20Frozen%20Either)
writes:

Nor can they handle cold meat. Since they eat only what they kill, and they
usually don't kill
anything large, their system isn't evolved to deal with meat that has been
left to cool.

****
That's interesting. Not only do my 3 cats not care whether it's fresh meat
or a couple of days thawed, but they don't care that I always feed them
straight out of the refrigerator. Sometimes it's something that's still pretty cold
and hard--like if I just remembered to pull something out of the freezer when
I'm home at noon and then feed them when I come in after work. If I'm paying
attention to them and not rushing to get out the door, I may run hot tap
water on a piece of meat that hasn't been out of the freezer overnight and feels
hard, but I'm sure I don't always manage to do even that...and nobody has
ever seemed to have any problem with it.

Of course, that may be because they know I'll just stick it back in the
fridge if they walk off from it, and they won't get anything until next morning!
:)

Lynda

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Question from Newbie
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:36 am ((PDT))

If it's small enough for them to gulp, then it's not big enough! :-)
What exactly are you feeding, and how often? Are they new to raw or
new to prey-model? I have a very enthusiastic-eating Boston, so I know
about gulping. He slowed down a lot after a few/several months on prey
model. Don't get me wrong--he likes his food, but he is much better
about not trying to fit crazy things down his throat. I still try to
feed pretty big hunks, and am careful about the size/cuts of bones I
give him.

If you give your dogs bigger, more complicated things they have to work
at and rip the meat off of, their stomachs will be more ready for
what's coming in, and it will be in more manageable pieces going down.
That should help with the vomiting.

If they're new to this type of food, they might learn how to eat better
(using paws, etc.), but some dogs just won't. As to the one who tries
not to get near the meat, he does eventually eat, I assume? If he has
food he has to work at and can't gulp in one bite, he'll have to figure
something out! :-)

Laurie


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
>
> My two pugs gulp their food, whatever it is big or small and once
they
> have gulped everything, they swallow it and immediately throw it back
> up.

Messages in this topic (2)
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9.1. Metabolism - WAS: Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:36 am ((PDT))

Hi Nathalie,

I love watching my Boston eat a goat leg!

Since the poop is dry and crumbly and you mention it seems like she
doesn't go "completely," it does sound like too much bone and
constipation. If the stools were runny, then it might be too much
food overall.

I think Carrie has talked about how she feeds in the morning or
night, but not the afternoon, to avoid nighttime bathroom trips. I
usually feed in the late afternoon or evening and don't really have
to worry about nighttime poops unless I've fed too much--then we
might be up a few times. Sometimes he'll poop soon after a meal (I
think that's the previous meal coming out), often it will be several
hours later (maybe 6 or 7 or so), and sometimes it will be the next
day.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Nathalie Poulin
<poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>> Another thing, I notice she's been pooping a LOT
> lately, even though it's pretty dry and crumbly
> (probably from all the bone she eats).

> How fast do your dogs metabolize a meat meal? Or a
> bonier meal?
>

Messages in this topic (39)
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10a. Re: Duck
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:36 am ((PDT))

How long did it take for the symtoms to go away?

i have goldens with allergies . . . their "allergy testing" showed that clancy is allergic to lamb,
duck, some kind of fish (don't remember which) and tonka is allergic to venison and poultry
(didn't specify - just said "poultry mix".

I'd been told that they may not be allergic to those foods in raw form, so we've been
experimenting a little. i tried pork last week, and clancy immediately started itching like
crazy. i retreated back to giving him chicken . . . but am wondering how long he'll itch ofr!

...katie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
>
> When I started raw i did an elimination diet. Chicken made her ears
> beet red and extremely itchy within 30 minutes. I went back to pork
> and waited til the symptoms went away and tried beef and then turkey.
> Each of those took a few days for symptoms to start and they weren't
> as bad as with the chicken but still obvious.

Messages in this topic (16)
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11a. Re: Heartworm positive?
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:53 am ((PDT))

what kind of experience? i have fostered many HW positive golden retrievers while they are
going through heartworm treatment.

...katie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Anyone on this list have experience with heartworm positive dogs? Please
> refer me. I don't think this is the place to actually discuss it.
> Thanks.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (6)
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12a. Re: Last nights disaster
Posted by: "Marilyn Neil" ems1classic@btinternet.com marilyn9751
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:08 am ((PDT))

Yes you are right, it was olive oil. hehehehe

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> When this happened to my sister lab (although fresh food) the vet
suggested a bottle of cod liver oil, this helped enomously, the kibble
basically slid through the gut without swelling.
*****
Gadzooks! A whole bottle of cod liver oil will deliver to a dog many
times the safe amount it should ingest. That's--heck, I can't even
figure out how much vitamin A and vitamin D the dog would be getting in
one stunning blow.

Nay, I say, nay!

It's much safer, if you urgently need to lube the tubes, to use olive
oil or even corn or canola cooking oils.
Chris O


Ems xxx

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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13.1. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "Alan & Andrea Southern" wykham@sa.chariot.net.au seawyndriana
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:07 am ((PDT))

I have fed 3" pieces of turkey neck to our cats.

Alan & Andrea
KITNKABOODLE BURMESE
WYKHAM BRITISH SHORTHAIR
QUINIVA STANDARD POODLES
http://users.chariot.net.au/~wykham
Aldinga Beach
South Australia
Australia


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14. Gulf of Mexico Fish
Posted by: "michelleraia1" michelleraia1@yahoo.com michelleraia1
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:10 am ((PDT))

We are going deep sea fishing soon. Does anyone know which deep sea
fish out of the Gulf of Mexico would be safe? King fish and shark are
popularly caught. Thanks.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (1)
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15a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:34 am ((PDT))

LOL I certainly don't run out and hunt for their fresh dinner! I've
actually managed to get mine on whole prey so I just buy them small
animals on-line and feed them those. It's so satisfying to hear them
crunching away! It's funny, getting them to eat chicken bones and
such was near impossible (except my youngest who we've nicknamed iron
guts and will eat anything) but once they got whole animals they were
just in seventh heaven.

Shannon

> *****
> Ah, well it's a good thing my cats can't read. I'll not tell them
> they're not supposed to eat "old" food and I certainly won't tell
them
> I'm supposed to be feeding them freshly killed food and I suspect
we'll
> continue to get by.
>
> Good to know though. Thank you.
> Chris O
>


Messages in this topic (18)
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