Feed Pets Raw Food

Wednesday, June 13, 2007

[rawfeeding] Re: Is there a need to freeze all fish?

> No, not all species need freezing. In fact if you ever go fishing (in
> a clean lake) you could feed your dog a fresh caught fish! The only
> ones that need freezing are salmon and trout species.

I would just like to note, for safety- if you do fish and feed your
dog what you catch, be careful to check the fish's guts for old hooks,
lures and other inedibles before you hand it over. Otherwise they
could land your pup in some serious trouble!

Crystal and the Zoo


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RE: [rawfeeding] Did I get a deal?

Thanks for all of your encouragement. I'll clear a few things up.

Both of my dogs are Airedale Terriers J Tana weighs a little over 25 lbs at
16 weeks. Sasha's ideal weight is about 55 lbs, but she's about 60 lbs now;
not overweight according to my vet, but since she has a heart murmur (4) I
am cautious about her weight.

I did buy the lambs head just for fun and to give them something to do.
Although I don't trust my big girl to share nicely with my puppy; she's
territorial with food. Funny thing though, as I think about it, when he
comes around her as she's eating a bone, he will wait patiently for her to
be done and she will walk away from it without incidence and he'll take up
where she left off. Hmm. Kinda just like it would be in the wild! Cool.
I guess really she's more territorial with US! What's that tell you? For
you behaviourists out there, is this because she is relinquishing her
authority to him? Or is it because he's the puppy of the pack?

Anyway, it looks like I'll have to look around a little more on the food.
I definitely feel better now about the liver question. I've not given them
ANY organs yet, so I'd better get on that. I can get chicken livers fairly
cheaply at our grocery store. I think I'll try those first. ( l love them
too, but I'll take mine cooked, thank you.)

Oh, and the pigs feet were the whole knee-down portion.

Thanks for the advise. Now to wean them/me off the kibble entirely.

Kendra


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[rawfeeding] Going out of town. Husband wants to feed nature's variety while I am gone.

I am leaving on Monday for 13 days in Italy.

Our Katie is an extremely shy Katrina rescue. I actually think she
may have been feral before the hurricane. She is on prozac for some
of her fear issues as all of the homeopathics we tried just weren't
enough.

Per her behaviourist, all food must be handfed. This way she learns
to trust us, etc. I am fine with this. I hold the drumstick end of
the chiken quarter while she knaws the other end, or the small end of
the lamb shank or neck while she tugs the meat off, or I hold the
bunny ears while she buried her muzzle in the bowels, etc. Only thing
I won't hold is tripe. That gets tossed into the yard.
This took a lot of getting used to. I am vegan and my husband is
vegetarian.

He can't handle it.

He found these Nature's Variety Medalions, and Northwest Naturals Raw
Nuggets, and is planning to feed those while I am gone, this way he
can just pick up a little piece and hand it to her, and not get his
hands dirty.

He will feed Petey normally (real stuff, throw it into the yard).

I guess I'm really just venting, since his mind is made up, and he
already bought the stuff. He's been really good about the raw switch
(meat was not allowed in our home at all until we got dogs), he has
been really good about working to keep our kitchen kosher and still
feed raw (not an easy task), he has been good about stopping all
vaccines (scary since Petey had parvo when we found him as a puppy).
I don't want to fight him on this, its not worth wasting all of that
goodwill.

Here are the ingredient lists. Are there anything in them that will
hurt her (not just be worhtless, but actually harm her)

Nature's Variety:
Venison, Lamb Liver, Lamb Hearts, Ground Lamb Bone, Apples, Carrots,
Pumpkinseeds, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseeds, Chicken Eggs,
Montmorillonite Clay, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Kelp, Salmon Oil,
Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts,
Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Olive Oil, Duck Eggs, Pheasant
Eggs, Quail Eggs, Inulin, Rosemary Extract, Sage, Clove, Mixed
Tocopherols, Citric Acid

Northwest Naturals:
Chicken, chicken liver, salmon, ground bone, broccoli, cantaloupe,
safflower oil, flaxseed, potassium chloride, dried kelp, inulin, salt,
fish oil, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate,
manganese proteinate, mixed tocopherols (as preservative), rosemary
extract, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement.

Nature's Variety claims to be 95% meat and only 5% veggie, so should I
have him increase her portion to make up for the 5% worthless stuff?

Thanks,

Nicole
Katie, Petey and the cats

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Re: [rawfeeding] gulping puppy

Deborah,

What are you feeding her? How large is she and how many times a day are you
feeding her?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "taydeb06" <taydeb06@gmail.com>


I have a 10 week old puppy that swallows her meet whole! Should I be
worried about this? Any suggestions for how to get her to eat more
slowly. I don't want to give her bigger pieces because she is only
supposed to eat 4 oz at a time for now.

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[rawfeeding] 2 day old kitten (was Re: Help

You might try the rawcat yahoo group.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Brenda Grundt <grundt@...> wrote:
tonight I got a 2 day old
> kitten.
>
> Just what do I feed this little tyke?
>

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[rawfeeding] Re: chicken feet--gulping & glucosamine

Great, thanks Liz & Chris!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
If you feed a
> variety of body parts you are certain to include glucosamine. You
> almost have to work at not feeding any.
> Chris O
>


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Re: [rawfeeding] Help

You need to get some formula from a pet store, he's too young for real food yet. Do you have any milk at all? That would do in a pinch until you get to the pet store, but he needs formula, like from mom. But water it down a little, like two parts milk to one part water, so he hopefully won't get the runs. This is only to hold him over. He might also like some sardines, just the meat and juice, no bones yet. Or maybe a little tunafish, from the can. I still think he is too young though for food, should really try to get some formula. Maybe an all night vet could sell you some.
Hey, if you know any animal rehabers, they all have kitten formula for raccoons and opossoms. Call one of them or their hotline numbers that are listed in the book to get some of theirs! Even puppy formula will work in a pinch.
jeni

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[rawfeeding] gulping puppy

I have a 10 week old puppy that swallows her meet whole! Should I be
worried about this? Any suggestions for how to get her to eat more
slowly. I don't want to give her bigger pieces because she is only
supposed to eat 4 oz at a time for now.
Deborah


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[rawfeeding] ifeprofen...

Someone mentioned they gave theier dog ifeprofen... I thought that was poisonous to dogs ! debbie


-----Original Message-----
From: Steffani Martino <yahoogroups800@earthlink.net>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:57 am
Subject: RE: [rawfeeding] Re: What meat has the most carbs?


Thanks to all for your responses so far. I guess I had thought that dogs
could get carbs from meat as well for energy, but maybe I do need to feed
more fat?

I just had my boy to the vet about 4-6 weeks ago for a complete annual
checkup and blood work to be done to check everything out. This was a new
alternative health vet that I took him to and not a typical vet. He
received a full exam of his body, heart, blood, fecal, etc. with no vaccines
and everything came back normal. So, I guess I wouldnt know where else to
go to check again? In addition to the playing we try to do at home, we do
take him to the park about once every 2 weeks where he can swim and run,
etc. and he goes nuts there and thoroughly enjoys himself, so I figure if he
had anything wrong he would not want to run at the park either. He had a
lot more energy on kibble and while I would never go back to that junk, its
just a comparison in the fact that his decrease in energy has only been
since feeding raw.

So, as far as feeding, he gets chicken quarters, chicken breasts (bone in
and bone out, whatever I find on sale), pork from picnics, the bone from
those when the meat is gone, beef roasts, pork spareribs, whole rabbits,
lamb when the store has it, including the bone, occasional whole duck
although he sometimes turns his nose up at those too, whole cut up turkeys
and turkey legs, either mackerel or salmon, occassional eggs when he will
eat them, and at times I try to stuff him with some 100% ground beef with
ground bones and some ground tripe that I get from my co-op. Otherwise, he
has to eat things that he must chew on, he wont eat anything mushy and
usually promptly throws up his whole meal if I make him eat ground beef or
tripe. He will not eat heart, kidney, liver or gizzards, no matter how I
try to disguise them or dry them out as treats. Of course he will eat
anything ground if I cook it! LOL

I'm trying to figure out first where the problem is before resorting to
supplements, but I think that I do feed him a good variety and not sure what
else to add. Those are all the meats that I can find in my area.
If anyone has any other suggestions on what I might be able to try to get
him some more energy, or if I need to increase the fat content (and with
what meats since I dont remove any fat from anything), please let me know.
Thanks.

Steff with Glory and Freedom

*****
Any amount of carbohydrate is too much for a dog that has no
nutritional need for carbohydrate. Dogs rely on fat for energy.

What I think he needs is a visit to his vet to make sure there aren't
health issues affecting him and two, and I think you need to post in
more detail what you are feeding him. IMO it would be foolish to look
to supplements without first thoroughly scrutinizing his food.

.

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[rawfeeding] Did I get a deal?

Yesterday I went to my local butcher. I've not been there in years.
I braved the truth and told him what I was doing as far as feeding
raw. He said he was selling to another lady who travels 45 miles to
him to get chicken leg quarters! I'd have to buy them in bulk, but it
comes out to be about $.98 a lb. Is this pretty good?

Also, he was willing to get in for me turkey wings at .78 a lb, and
beef liver whole. He warned me that he had another guy feeding a mix
of raw including beef liver and they had runny stools all the time.
Does any have a recomendation on the liver?

Yesterday, for $10, I got 6 pig leg bones (no real meat) cut in half,
two pigs feet and get this; a lambs head! The lamb's head looks so
gross, even though it is frozen. Does anyone have suggestions on how
I should "serve" this to my older dog(few teeth and then pretty worn
down) and my almost 4 month old puppy?

This butcher was very willing to work with me, although he was not
willing to sell me his "ends" at any better a price because he makes
his own sausage and all those things go into his mix. He's very
willing to order, from the slaughter house, anything he can leagally
sell to me. I asked for the "gullet" but he called it the esophagus.
NOt to sound dumb, but is this the same?

Another thing; I don't remember reading, except in some snips and such
from messages here this week, that I should be introducing one kind of
meat at a time?! How important is this? I guess I screwed up with
that then, because they've had turkey, chicken beef and pork all in
one week! Yipes?! Can someone clear this up for me?

Thanks,
Kendra

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[rawfeeding] Re: how much and what types

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "noveltycakedecorator"
<Elaine@...> wrote:

> This is the first time I've done this kind of thing, both online
> and having a pup which eats raw.

Well, welcome on both accounts. I'm sure you'll learn a lot from
this group!

> I found today that she should be eating approx 10% of her body
> weight in food ie 2kg, Is this right?

Since the puppy's weight will fluctuate as she grows, it's usually
easier to feed 2-3% of the ideal adult weight every day split into 2-
3 meals a day. That being said, I recently was adopted by a
Newfoundland/Lab mix and I have absolutely no idea how big he
intends to be, so I'm starting off with 10% of puppy weight and then
going by feel from there.

> I am currently giving her minced beef and tripe for breakfast, a
> mix of meat chunks ( equal portions of beef, beef heart, beef
> liver, tripe) for lunch and minced beef and tripe for tea.

Well, first off, whole foods will be much more beneficial to your
pup than mince and chunks. You seem to be missing the meaty bone
portion of the diet as well. Most people start with whole chickens,
whacked into quarters, and then add from there.

> and I give her dried pig ears or sausages as treats most days.

A great alternative to dried pig ears are raw pig ears. They are
really chewy and can last even longer if you freeze them first.

> Also the breeder said she should have biscuits to fill her out, so
> she gets a couple of hand fulls of beta puppy biscuits at bedtime.

I'm all for giving a good puppy some treats, but I wouldn't give
them "just to fill out." No one wants a pudgy pup, especially a
giant breed. But as long as the treats don't interfere with the
regular diet, I see no problem with it.

> I am told that as she is a big dog, she shouldn't have to much
> protein whilst growing

No need to worry about too much protein. As fed, raw is only about
18% protein. Besides, raw fed pups grow at a much slower more
natural rate than their kibblefed counterparts. Lots of people on
the list have raised giant breed pups on raw with no problems.

> I have not included any chicken or fish in the diet but was
> thinking that I ought to.

Great idea! Once pups get used to digesting raw, they are really
good at incorporating variety without digestive upsets. Lots of
adult dogs need to have a week or so between introductions of new
meats, but puppies generally can tolerate new stuff every other
day. The more variety you get her to eat early, the less likely
she'll ever become one of those dreaded picky eaters.
Congratulations on your choice, and welcome to the group!

Andrea

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[rawfeeding] Re: how much and what types

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "noveltycakedecorator" <Elaine@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi
> This is the first time I've done this kind of thing, both online and
> having a pup which eats raw. So please bare with me.
>
> My pup is a 13wk Mastiff, approx 20 kg. I found today that she should
> be eating approx 10% of her body weight in food ie 2kg, Is this right?
>
> Also, what exactly should I give her? I am currently giving her
> minced beef and tripe for breakfast, a mix of meat chunks ( equal
> portions of beef, beef heart, beef liver, tripe) for lunch and minced
> beef and tripe for tea.
> and I give her dried pig ears or sausages as treats most days.
>
> Also the breeder said she should have biscuits to fill her out, so
> she gets a couple of hand fulls of beta puppy biscuits at bedtime.
>
> I am told that as she is a big dog, she shouldn't have to much
> protein whilst growing and that she should have several small meals
> to prevent bloat.
>
> I have not included any chicken or fish in the diet but was thinking
> that I ought to.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated as this is all a bit new to me.
>
> Regards
> Elaine
> England UK
>


Elaine,
Your breeder is weird, and those statements make no sense to me. All
dogs are the same species and require a diet based on animal protein
as they are all carnivores. Wolves, like mastiffs, are big creatures
that do not do life-stage feeding. Also, since he is a puppy he will
need to eat double the amount of that. Like 4% or more since he is
growing. Chicken and fish are excellent sources of protein, and fish
should be fed once a week. If you are worried about chicken causing
allergies, with a raw diet this is a non-issue as raw protein has been
unaltered compared to its cooked counterparts.
-Liz

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Re: [rawfeeding] how much and what types

"Also the breeder said she should have biscuits to fill her out, so she gets
a couple of hand fulls of beta puppy biscuits at bedtime."

No No - no non-raw food. Ditch the biscuits. If she needs to fill out,
feed her more meat.

"I am told that as she is a big dog, she shouldn't have to much protein
whilst growing and that she should have several small meals to prevent
bloat."

Hogwash on the too much protein. Multiple meals is okay in the beginning
until they are about 6-8 months. I fed mine 3 times a day until about 4
months, then twice a day til 8 months, then once a day thereafter.

Your diet sounds good, but a lot of tripe - this is good for them, but can
be rich and cause loose stools. I would give liver and tripe once a day;
liver in moderate amounts as this has vitamin A & D which is stored in the
body and can get too much. I give mine a 2lb liver meal once a week to give
you an idea. But a little daily is fine - liver/organs (not heart) and
tripe can cause loose dark stools so don't be alarmed. Heart is a muscle
and I have fed daily with no worries.

I don't see any bone in your diet. The guideline is 10% bone, 90% meat.
You don't have to mince anything for your little/big guy. I started mine on
bone in chicken breasts and graduate to half a chicken, red meat is the best
when you can get it. I have better results with turkey than with chicken
and have been told on this list turkey is better for them than chicken, it's
closer to the "wild" then domesticated meat.

Congrats for feeding raw!!! You will get lots of good advice from this
list.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


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Re: [rawfeeding] how much and what types

Good heavens...give her something to chew! <grin>

Seriously, I feed puppies at 2%-3% of their anticipated adult weight,
because with purebreds it's a pretty easy guess.

She's ready to chew things. Give her CHUNKS of beef, 1/2 chickens, etc.

And skip the biscuits, except as treats...they're really not necessary.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"


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[rawfeeding] Re: Proteins for dogs just starting on raw

ON another group I am on for German Shepherds, the owner feeds a raw
diet AND she takes her dog to the ocean once a week. The salt water
does something to stop the itchiness. So if you have a salt water lake
or ocean nearby, that might help too.
Kimberly

This morning her paws were
> > inflamed and we have the beginnings of an ear infection.

My Great Dane Diesel has been a "problem child" as well. He seems to
go through stages where he is really itchy. Since adding "Wild Salmon
Oil" to his diet he is showing some improvement but still has issues
sometimes.


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Re: [rawfeeding] Proteins for dogs just starting on raw

Thanks for your response!

I'm not looking for a miracle cure, but since I'm still really new to raw I don't quite know what to expect. I had a shepherd that took two months to "detox" from a crappy kibble to a good kibble (oxymoron?) and his symptoms were similar to what my lab is going through (sporadic random flare-ups).

My Lab has been through a LOT, I just want to do what's right for her without throwing too much at her too quickly. I'm having trouble finding solid numbers on how long I should try a protein before adding a new one (for a sensitive dog), or when I should start adding organs and in what quantity (again, for a sensitive dog)?

Knock on wood, we've been able to keep solid stools even with the addition of turkey necks, but I'm almost wondering if the lack of vitamins (ie organs) in the diet could be a problem? She's been on ground turkey and had 2 necks in a month's time.....that isn't exactly variety. I'm worried about trying salmon oil because we're really trying to keep to turkey to find out if we're dealing with a food or airborne allergen. Can salmon oil be an allergen or is it generally well tolerated by most?

Sonja

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[rawfeeding] how much and what types

Hi
This is the first time I've done this kind of thing, both online and
having a pup which eats raw. So please bare with me.

My pup is a 13wk Mastiff, approx 20 kg. I found today that she should
be eating approx 10% of her body weight in food ie 2kg, Is this right?

Also, what exactly should I give her? I am currently giving her
minced beef and tripe for breakfast, a mix of meat chunks ( equal
portions of beef, beef heart, beef liver, tripe) for lunch and minced
beef and tripe for tea.
and I give her dried pig ears or sausages as treats most days.

Also the breeder said she should have biscuits to fill her out, so
she gets a couple of hand fulls of beta puppy biscuits at bedtime.

I am told that as she is a big dog, she shouldn't have to much
protein whilst growing and that she should have several small meals
to prevent bloat.

I have not included any chicken or fish in the diet but was thinking
that I ought to.

Any advice would be appreciated as this is all a bit new to me.

Regards
Elaine
England UK

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: When to start the puppies on raw

"I did worm the puppies today and they all act kind of sluggish. I know one
of them
has worms because he has such a pot belly"

I would recommend using DE for a natural wormer - it works great. Here is a
link where I got mine - you have to make sure you are buying human/food
grade (not yard/swimming pool grade).

http://www.blackkatherbs.com/pets.htm

For puppies I'd give 1/2 tsp daily for 3 weeks; adults it's 1 TB daily for 3
weeks. I mixed mine with a raw egg.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


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Re: [rawfeeding] Proteins for dogs just starting on raw

> I check her ears and paws for infection at least once a day since
> she's been a problem child in that area. This morning her paws were
> inflamed and we have the beginnings of an ear infection.

It is easy to blame the diet for problems like these (ear infections, etc). I don't know your dogs history and won't pretend to be an expert.

My Great Dane Diesel has been a "problem child" as well. He seems to go through stages where he is really itchy. Since adding "Wild Salmon Oil" to his diet he is showing some improvement but still has issues sometimes.

Last year he had a piece of fluff from the grass in his ear that ended up in an ear infection, before that it was a yeast infection of some sort... Since starting on raw he has gotten allot better, but still has some issues. You have to remember that ...

A raw diet provides an excellent platform upon which great health for
your dog may be achieved. However, it is not the panacea
for all problems. It is not a miracle cure.

Kibble sometimes serves to "hide" other health issues, there may be some genetic issue (as with my dog).

I guess I probably haven�t helped much, but the point is to keep your eyes open! It is very important to find a vet that can keep an open mind and look past the fact that your dog eats raw.

Ross Senger


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[rawfeeding] Re: House fly or common fly's

> You should maybe worry when a 400 pound gorilla sits on one of your
> dog's RMB. Or maybe fire ants. Flies is just flies. IMO.

LOLOLOL Now THAT I would like to see! You're too funny Chris. It
just started to warm up her in Toronto, so I'm feeding their Ostrich
Necks and stuff out on the porch...tonnes of flies....Funny I can plow
through a bag of goat insides, but these flies give me the willy's!!!!

BTW, Just converted my friend to raw, Told her to join this list - the
best learning tool she could possibly have. Keep an eye out for Kate
and her dog Macy and cat Dragon!!
Suz


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[rawfeeding] Re: Proteins for dogs just starting on raw

I followed the advice I received here and have stopped all supplements
as of a few weeks ago, and have started adding whole turkey necks (2
in the last three days) to Kodie's usual fare of ground turkey.

I check her ears and paws for infection at least once a day since
she's been a problem child in that area. This morning her paws were
inflamed and we have the beginnings of an ear infection. She has NOT
gotten into anything else, the only change was the addition of the
turkey necks. We are not giving organs yet. Stools as of this morning
were normal.

She's been on raw since mid-May. I know that it can take at least
three months before the results are really apparent, but has anyone
seen anything like I'm describing? Or is it just coincidence that we
added the necks just before these infections cropped up?

Should I add the enzymes and probiotics back into her diet? They made
a huge difference when she was eating kibble, but now that she's on
raw I've been able to cut them out completely, and the itching has
only increased a little. I couldn't even lower the dose when she was
on kibble without having her go into horrible itching fits.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

Sonja Johnson


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[rawfeeding] Cheap Chick Quarters @ Food 4 Less

This week's flyer is announcing 10lb bags of frozen chicken quarters at
our local Food 4 Less for 59c lb. I'm in the SoCal Palm Springs area.

happy hunting!
Barb

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re:safe bones (for tiny breeds)

I have no experience with small breeds but I imagine "safe" bones is the wrong term, The question should be about what "edible" bones there are.

I have two Great Danes and I have seen them crunching up a deer femur (well after working on it for half the day). On the same hand I would never feed a detached wing (they would probably swallow it hole and end up choking on it.

As for toy breeds... I wouldn�t worry about "safe bones" but more about what bones they are able to crunch and consume.

Cheers

-Ross Senger


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[rawfeeding] Re: feeding frequency and fat intolerance

He is not losing weight.

Ive given him about 5 lbs and he throws up his food.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...>
wrote:
>
> "Sabrina S" <salter6826@> wrote:
>
> > For those of you who feed big dogs (100 lb rottie who is hitting a
> > growth spurt at 4 yrs)
>
>
> Better start with a disclaimer: I do not feed a big dog. My
> pipsqueak is just 65ish pounds. But don't worry, I'm not trying to
> give you advice -- just asking some clarifying questions.
>
> Starting with: a growth spurt at 4 years old?? What makes you
think
> this? (Or are you joking and I'm being slow on the uptake?)
Because
> to my knowledge, the only growth spurt you'd see in a 4-yr-old
Rottie
> is *sideways*. Not really the kind of growth anyone wants to
> encourage.
>

my dog is 4 yrs old and he still looks like a puppy. my husband was
telling me that they take 5 yrs to grow fully. so that wasnt a joke.


> > Ive been feeding him 3-4 lbs once a day, but he seems to be so
> hungry
>> Does he just *act* hungry, or is he actually losing weight? Is he
> maintaining weight? Are you actually feeding him more already in
> response to his acting hungry?

Ive been feeding him just 3.5-4 since I noticed he's been hungry. he
is acting super excited about food and really watching us when we eat.

> > he doesnt tolerate fat so I have to do the grueling job of
> > skinning 99% of his meals. And I cant feed him too much at one
time or he gets the runs.
>
>
> Is 3-4 pounds at a time "too much" for him? Or is he doing okay
with
> that? How much is "too much"?

Ive given him 5 before and he got the runs.

>
> Given this fat intolerance thing, I have to wonder: just what are
you
> feeding the guy? Could you give us a sample of a week or so, what
> you feed and how much? There could be a lot of things in play
here,
> and you're likely to get more detailed and more helpful responses
if
> you give us more detail to work with.
>
> -- sandy & griffin (who's now looking positively shrimpy)

Im feeding him a variety of meats-pork roasts, beef, whole chickens,
and organs.


salter6826

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[rawfeeding] Re: Runny bowel movements

"costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
How about a
> smashed chicken breast fed alone or with some added meat?
*****
What a dork I are.
No, NOT smashed chicken breast. I meant smashed chicken BACK. Oy.
Sorry.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: What meat has the most carbs?

Hey Steff- could it be that your boy is just growing up? You started
feeding raw about 6 months ago and now he's 3, right? I don't know
what breed he is, but my boy, Blake, who is a lab did a LOT of growing
up around that age (although I had been wishing for it since he was
about 18 months!). He went from a maniac on paws to a playful
gentleman around 2 1/2 - 3 years old.

Emily and Blake (who is wondering if he REALLY heard mom call him a
playful gentleman)

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[rawfeeding] Re: What meat has the most carbs?

"Steffani Martino" <yahoogroups800@...> wrote:
I guess I had thought that dogs
> could get carbs from meat as well for energy, but maybe I do need
to feed
> more fat?
*****
Liver contains a wee bit of carbohydrate; other meats may offer trace
amounts but nothing like vegetables add. Fat would be your preferred
source of energy food, yes. How much fat do you leave on the meats
you feed?


He
> received a full exam of his body, heart, blood, fecal, etc. with no
vaccines
> and everything came back normal.
*****
Was a full thyroid test done? Not just the T4, the whole shootin'
match.


> lot more energy on kibble and while I would never go back to that
junk, its
> just a comparison in the fact that his decrease in energy has only
been
> since feeding raw.
*****
Was his kibble energy manic energy? Lunatic, over the top
excitement? Is his current level of activity appropriate for his
breed, for the interactions you provide him? It may be his kibble
self was not the healthy one and his raw fed self is. Or is closer
to being. It may be he has the ability to be sensible now, with no
grains and difficult to digest food substitutes.


He will not eat heart, kidney, liver or gizzards, no matter how I
> try to disguise them or dry them out as treats. Of course he will
eat
> anything ground if I cook it! LOL
*****
In the main, your dog's menu seems fine. Except for the lack of
liver (although heart and kidney should be fed, liver really is job
one). Have you tried searing the liver--and have you tried liver
from different critters? While chicken and beef are the most common,
they are only two options. Try pork or lamb. And if you can get a
whole rabbit into him, he will be of course eating its liver, at
least one can hope. Whole fish liver counts. Will he eat whole fish?


if I need to increase the fat content (and with
> what meats since I dont remove any fat from anything), please let
me know.
*****
How trimmed out are the meats you feed? Beef chuck for example can
be served quite fatty but top, bottom or round roasts are lean.
Brisket is fatty. Pork roasts can provide lots of fat; pork loin
does not. Usually fatty meats are cheaper than lean meats, so if you
are not buying cheap, consider doing so. Lamb of course is plenty
fatty. Goat is generally not.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] recalled ground beef

Would our dogs be affected by e-coli or salmonella?
Thanks.
Arney

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[rawfeeding] Re: I'm getting scared!!

> Ahhhh....they are BARF lists...what would you think they promote?
Certainly
> not prey model!

***That's what I thought too, but the WazzuBarf list is focused on
ordering products and there are several prey model feeders on there.
Diet isn't really discussed; usually it is just getting databases,
payments and deliveries set up. So even if it say 'barf' it's worth
checking out.
-Renee W.

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[rawfeeding] Re: I'm getting scared!!

> Ahhhh....they are BARF lists...what would you think they promote?
Certainly
> not prey model!

***That's what I thought too, but the WazzuBarf list is focused on
ordering products and there are several prey model feeders on there.
Diet isn't really discussed; usually it is just getting databases,
payments and deliveries set up. So even if it say 'barf' it's worth
checking out.
-Renee W.

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[rawfeeding] Re: Runny bowel movements

"mypapito_ri" <mypapito_ri@...> wrote:
>> I take him outside 3-4 times a day. I also try to squeeze in a
long
> walk when possible.
>
> Thanks for your interest,
*****
I have not been following this although it appears I maybe should
have been, so my comments may be snooze news. If so, I apologize.

If you feeding skin, remove it. Trim off dangly fat. Change the
brand of chicken you use. Maybe the bones you feed are causing the
problem. Have you tried skinless bone-in chicken breast halves (cut
out the breastbone if you find it daunting right now)? How about a
smashed chicken breast fed alone or with some added meat? How about
game hens that are even easier to eat than chicken?

Are you giving him supps or meds? I assume you have sussed the boy
out for parasites and/or illness? What's the water quality like?

Are these 3-4 outside visits potty visits or in addition to potty
visits? IMO a 9wo pup should be doing potty visits every three hours
at the least, plus after waking, eating, playing, before bedtime and
whenever the activity level changes. And a long walk is not
necessarily productive for a wee small baby.

Your pup needs activity that suits his attention span, which at this
point in his life is maybe 5 minutes. Babies eat, sleep and go to
the bathroom, with brief but dynamic bursts of energy. It may well
be you are stressing the kid out with these long walks. His exercise
should be completely self-determined at this age.

Chris O

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RE: [rawfeeding] Re: What meat has the most carbs?

Thanks to all for your responses so far. I guess I had thought that dogs
could get carbs from meat as well for energy, but maybe I do need to feed
more fat?

I just had my boy to the vet about 4-6 weeks ago for a complete annual
checkup and blood work to be done to check everything out. This was a new
alternative health vet that I took him to and not a typical vet. He
received a full exam of his body, heart, blood, fecal, etc. with no vaccines
and everything came back normal. So, I guess I wouldnt know where else to
go to check again? In addition to the playing we try to do at home, we do
take him to the park about once every 2 weeks where he can swim and run,
etc. and he goes nuts there and thoroughly enjoys himself, so I figure if he
had anything wrong he would not want to run at the park either. He had a
lot more energy on kibble and while I would never go back to that junk, its
just a comparison in the fact that his decrease in energy has only been
since feeding raw.

So, as far as feeding, he gets chicken quarters, chicken breasts (bone in
and bone out, whatever I find on sale), pork from picnics, the bone from
those when the meat is gone, beef roasts, pork spareribs, whole rabbits,
lamb when the store has it, including the bone, occasional whole duck
although he sometimes turns his nose up at those too, whole cut up turkeys
and turkey legs, either mackerel or salmon, occassional eggs when he will
eat them, and at times I try to stuff him with some 100% ground beef with
ground bones and some ground tripe that I get from my co-op. Otherwise, he
has to eat things that he must chew on, he wont eat anything mushy and
usually promptly throws up his whole meal if I make him eat ground beef or
tripe. He will not eat heart, kidney, liver or gizzards, no matter how I
try to disguise them or dry them out as treats. Of course he will eat
anything ground if I cook it! LOL

I'm trying to figure out first where the problem is before resorting to
supplements, but I think that I do feed him a good variety and not sure what
else to add. Those are all the meats that I can find in my area.
If anyone has any other suggestions on what I might be able to try to get
him some more energy, or if I need to increase the fat content (and with
what meats since I dont remove any fat from anything), please let me know.
Thanks.

Steff with Glory and Freedom

*****
Any amount of carbohydrate is too much for a dog that has no
nutritional need for carbohydrate. Dogs rely on fat for energy.

What I think he needs is a visit to his vet to make sure there aren't
health issues affecting him and two, and I think you need to post in
more detail what you are feeding him. IMO it would be foolish to look
to supplements without first thoroughly scrutinizing his food.

.

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=7423526/grpspId=1707421080/msgId
=132872/stime=1181749061/nc1=3848648/nc2=3848443/nc3=4025302>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Black runny stool

> "Mary" <halle4@...> wrote:
>
> > I have fed some heart meat to
> > them and I think this might be causing the liquid black stool

Heart always makes my Dane's stools very dark. He has been raw fed for a little over a month and a half. I introduced heart slowly over a few week period and I managed to avoid away from the runny black poo.

> > I just bought a whole beef heart too....what to do?

I would still feed the heard but in small dosages. I feed my 2 Danes (100-150lbs) about 1 lb of heart each 3-4 times per week. Some dogs seem to be able to take a full hear meal and others can't.


I wish you the best.

-Ross Senger


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[rawfeeding] Re: House fly or common fly's

"Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...> wrote:
>
> After my dogs eat a rmb...and they like to leave it for a bit, then
> pick at it, and then leave it...a lot of fly's jump on and off of
it.
> How harmful is this as I have seen then land on dog poop too?
*****
And that's only what you SEE them landing on! How's THAT for fuel for
your worries?

IMO there is nothing to be concerned about. Heck, the flies could lay
eggs and produce maggots and that still would not necessarily be
harmful to your dogs (although it would indeed gross you out).

You should maybe worry when a 400 pound gorilla sits on one of your
dog's RMB. Or maybe fire ants. Flies is just flies. IMO.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: What meat has the most carbs?

"floridasun5" <yahoogroups800@...> wrote:
my boy dog has sort
> of lost his spunk and energetic ways that he used to have. Even
when
> I try to play ball or hose (he loves chasing the water LOL) with
him,
> he will play for about 5 minutes and be done...and even when he
does
> play, its still at an almost disinterested or tired level. He's
only
> 3 years old, so he shouldnt be acting like he is 10! I had given
it
> several months of raw feeding to see if it came back, but it still
> hasnt and I'm wondering if maybe he isnt getting enough
> carbohydrates?
*****
Any amount of carbohydrate is too much for a dog that has no
nutritional need for carbohydrate. Dogs rely on fat for energy.

What I think he needs is a visit to his vet to make sure there aren't
health issues affecting him and two, and I think you need to post in
more detail what you are feeding him. IMO it would be foolish to look
to supplements without first thoroughly scrutinizing his food.

And of course Missing Link is utterly inappropriate for a rawfed
dog. It even advertises itself as a source of nutrients for the
kibble crowd.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Hello, I'm new. I need some help please.

> Hello, my name is Laura. I live in Corona, CA with my husband
> and "zoo". For the purposes of this group - I have 4 dogs, 130# Great
> Dane, 74# GSD mix, 72# GSD and a 12# DoxiPoo mix.

Laura,

I try to keep to <$1 per pound for RMB's. assuming that you feed %3 of
the dogs bodyweight per day you would be looking at about
8.64lbs/day....

> I spent about $25 between Bulk supply stores
> (Costco, Sam's Club) and ethnic markets (because their meat is
> cheaper vs. regular markets) that only covered us for about 2 &#150; 3
> days.

So $9/day x 3 days = $29.

If you were feeding kibble...say Canadae all life stages going by the
recommended amounts on the website your requirement per day would be
about 3.5 lbs. I think it comes in 40 lb bags so you would have to feed
about 3 bags per month. So (assuming $60/bag) that would be ~$180 per
month as opposed to $240/month feeding raw (at $1 per lb).

I know this is a bit more money but you will more then likely save on
vet bills. If you can get below the $1/lb mark it is very possible to
make feeding raw cheaper then the premum Ki*le.

Well... Thats my rant, For me with two Great Danes the price is almost
the same. After seeing the health benifits of feeding the prey model
diet I dont think I will ever go back to kibble.

Cheers,

Ross Senger

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[rawfeeding] Re: Elbow Displaysia/O.C.D. and Raw Diet

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Veronique Cartier
<cartiervero@...> wrote:
>
> there is a lot of hype about the benefits of Glucosomyne/ and
> Vit. C
> for Adult dogs But.if anyone can point to some good
> reading sources,
> I would love to research this issue.

I don't have reading sources but I have personal experience. I had
an arthritic hip and my two goldens at the time had bad hips also.
We all three took glucosimine and althought my wife swore she
thought the dogs were better on glucosimine, I could tell no
difference in either myself nor my dogs.

I have been told that you must take it for a period of time to
notice a difference. I view with a huge grain of salt
any "medicine" you must take for a month before you can tell if it
is doing any good. It's difficult if not impossible to compare pain
today with pain a month ago and your mind can convince you of most
anything in a months time.

As for Vit C, I have this information:
L-ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is necessary for hydroxylation of
proline and lysine during biosynthesis of collagen, a major
component of ligaments and bones. Food devoid of Vitamin C fed to
puppies for 147 to 154 days neither affected growth nor caused
skeletal lesions.12 There are no known dietary requirements for
Vitamin C in the dog.*

Ozanis DA; The AAFCO Dog and Cat Food Nutrient Profiles, In Current
Veterinary Therapy XII, Ed by JD
Bongura, Philadelphia, WS Saunders, 1995, pp 1418-1421.

Dogs produce their own vit C internally in their liver. What I
gather from this study is that no additional Vit C will have any
positive effect.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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[rawfeeding] Re: raw feeding

"fireandice_88" <fireandice_88@...> wrote:
>
> my pug named zelda sue is on raw diet. she has a bit of a problem
from
> time to time. somtimes she wants her meat baked. what she realyy
likes
> is her veggies cooked on the grill. and of course she gets it lol
*****
What? This is funny?
She doesn't need veggies from a nutritional perspective, so if you
are grilling her veggies I hope you are feeding them as treats. Not
especially good ones at that.

Zelda Sue has figured you out for a chump and she is playing you all
she can. You do not have bake her meat (bake meat?) and you are
ultimately shortchanging her by cooking out the meat's nutrition.
Baking is not about preserving nutrients!

Perhaps you might post Zelda Sue's menu so that we can help you
optimize her diet. Cooked meat and veggies are not part of a raw
diet.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Elbow Displaysia/O.C.D. and Raw Diet

Veronique Cartier <cartiervero@...> wrote:
>I cannot tell what part of his diet is working,but it is!!.
*****
No one part, the whole thing. The whole is greater than the sum of its
parts. That's why over-reacting in one area almost always produces
other problems. Continue feeding a good species appropriate diet.


> there is a lot of hype about the benefits of Glucosomyne/ and Vit. C
> for Adult dogs But.if anyone can point to some good reading sources,
> I would love to research this issue.
*****
Often to get the information you want you have to do the prelim
research as well read what others have already found. Google will of
course help you tremendously; what we can do perhaps is help you sort
through the hype...or help you know how to winnow the hype from the
legit. Clearly, if the website or spokesperson is selling what you're
reading about, the source would not be a first rate reference. When
you are evaluating information, always look to who benefits. (As any
good detective would do! Cui bono?)

It's important to remember that there are indeed many potentially
useful supplements. After you have rejected the obvious scams, your
final analysis may be how your dog does on the product. There is no
one solution. Sometimes switching to a different brand of the same
supplement can make a difference.

Chris O

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