Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 8, 2007

Monday, October 8, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12137

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: NEED MORE ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS FOR MOLLY
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: NEED MORE ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS FOR MOLLY
From: katkellm

2a. Re: Raw Feeding while I'm Pregnant
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: katkellm
3b. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
From: Michael Moore

5a. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
From: spricketysprock
5b. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: List on Freecycle
From: Mona

7a. Re: Chicken Necks
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Chicken Necks
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Re: Calories
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Re: New dog, feeding question
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: New to Group, how do I do a raw diet meal??
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Snowy's front gums are bleeding, no apparent cause...?
From: Sandee Lee

12a. Fwd: Message not approved: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: T Smith
12b. Re: Fwd: Message not approved: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: Fwd: Message not approved: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: Giselle

13a. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
From: ryanbadie
13b. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
From: Sandee Lee

14. itchy spot/hot spot?
From: rocketblasther

15a. Re: Some thoughts/questions
From: Giselle

16a. Re: beef tongue
From: Giselle

17a. Re: WOW! Love the results after nearly 2 weeks!
From: Giselle

Messages
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1a. Re: NEED MORE ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS FOR MOLLY
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to stay calm, but I am getting a bit worried. Any
advice
> for me??? Is it normal to have this kind of reaction to the
> raw food
> now even after she has had no issues in the two weeks prior to
this
> episode?

Nancy, don't panic. This is not normal but not all that uncommon
either. It happens from time to time with certain dogs. Sometimes
it takes a week or so on chicken for tummy to settle down. I
suggest feeding her more bone. Maybe one of her meals each day
could be a chicken back. Lots of bone in them and bone tends to
firm up poop.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: NEED MORE ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS FOR MOLLY
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
> Her system had calmed down...bowels and stomach empty...and then I
> gave her a very small meal on Saturday morning of chicken breast with
> a bit of bone still attached. Sunday I fed her more of the same.

Hi Nancy,
If i am hearing you correctly, you fed chicken breast"with a bit of
bone still attached." If you actually removed some of the bone from
the breast, this might not have been the best plan because bone tends
to firm things up. Skin and fat removal is a great idea, but maybe
you should have left the bone. Second, again if i hear you correctly,
you fed one meal Sat. morning and then nothing until Sunday. I think
that with a tummy that is recovering from being upset several smaller
and more frequent meals might have been better for her. So at this
point i think i would stick with a bone left in chicken breast, hold
the fat and the skin. I would feed 3 smaller meals a day and make
sure you don't increase the amount you feed since you are feeding more
often. I also agree with Carol that some SEPB might help her. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Raw Feeding while I'm Pregnant
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

Rachel,

Continue to practice normal hygiene...washing countertops and hands...and
don't worry about it. Bacteria are everywhere....you will not avoid them by
feeding anything other than raw.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "rach9876" <rach9876@yahoo.com>

Of course, i wash
my hands and the countertops off each time. I guess i just reassurance
that it is ok to continue to feed my dog raw and that i am not posing
any threat to the baby. Thanks.

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
> What is the point of this type of feeding?

Hi Trina,
The advantages to feeding big meals begins with a more challenging
meal. The bigger the hunk of meat, the harder the dog has to work to
eat it. The harder they work, the more they have to twist and turn
and tear and rip and gnaw, the better physical exercise it is for
them. The dental cleaning benefits increase because they have to turn
their heads every which way and use all them there teeth to try to
eat. It is a great mental challenge to a dog to try and figure it all
out-kinda like a jig saw puzzle. A dog's stomach was physically
designed to eat big meals, to stretch. Feeding big meals not only
allows us to feed a natural diet, it allows you to let your dog mimic
the eating habits of a wolf. A dog that is fed a big meal is able to
stop when they are full and not when their people tell them they are
full. There is no contentment like that of a dog who has just downed
a big meal. A dog who is fed random sized meals at irregular intervals
is no longer a clock watcher and is not obsessive over food anymore.
They know what it is like to be really and truly full, not just full
enough to wait for the next little meal. This is not a thing for a
new raw fed dog to do. It is kind a like the five mile jog that you
wouldn't attempt on the first day of training, but is an easy run a
couple of months later. Just i case you couldn't tell, i love to feed
my dogs this way. hth KathyM whose dogs really love big meals,too

Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 8:52 pm ((PDT))

"miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
is there a compelling reason with this model of eating to
> feed twice a day.
*****
The only compelling reasons would be dog related. If health or age
require smaller meals more frequently then that of course is what you
should do. Often it's recommended that small breeds be fed several
times day, but I don't believe there's consensus with this.

Otherwise, there is no reason except human habit to feed twice a day
and there are plenty of good reasons to feed once a day. Or less.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

Laurie,

Good job! :) Glad things went well and the dogs enjoyed their meal!

I think since your dogs are used to eating beef and liver, you would be safe
in continuing with them. If they have loose stools, you could back off a
bit.

You are definitely correct about the bone content in chicken....it is
probably closer to 25% and additional meat is advised!

Fasting isn't necessary unless you are feeding huge meals that would account
for a day or two of food!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "thebestformyboys" <llb6984@comcast.net>

Now we have a couple more questions. The chicken leg qu. 1.1 lbs with
bone and skin seems like a lot more than 10% bone more like 20%? I'm
guessing I shouldn't feed any bone in tomorrow mornings meal (I've
got some prepacked cubed beef 80% with some liver 10%, and just a
couple pieces of kidney and heart from the old diet to use up). Then
feed another leg quarter tomorrow night. Am I thinking right? I don't
have to feed bone with every meal, just make it 10% of the diet. I'm
going to stay with chicken and beef for the first week or so since
they are used to these.
What about fasting? Do I have to do this? Ever?

Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

>>the chicken leg qu. 1.1 lbs with bone and skin seems like a lot more than 10% bone more like 20%? I'm guessing I shouldn't feed any bone in tomorrow mornings meal (I've got some prepacked cubed beef 80% with some liver 10%, and just a couple pieces of kidney and heart from the old diet to use up). Then
feed another leg quarter tomorrow night. Am I thinking right? I don't have to feed bone with every meal, just make it 10% of the diet. I'm going to stay with chicken and beef for the first week or so since
they are used to these. <<

You may be over-thinking this, which I think is common when starting on prey model. It's balance "over time" that's important, not on a daily basis. Over time, IMO, is over weeks, even months. You can certainly feed chicken quarters for long periods without issues. You can also feed boneless meals if you don't mind the possibility of loose stools from that. Depends on your dogs' tolerance and yours. And, BTW, I never even *think* about percentages -- I just feed mainly a lot of meat, a little bone and some organs. I've become quite causual about it.

>>What about fasting? Do I have to do this? Ever?<<

Personally, I don't, usually. I *have* given huge meals and then nothing for one day, or something tiny like an egg. But usually I just feed daily. There's no reason that you *have* to fast your dogs. Ever.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))

My dog does the exact thing. I guess he is cleaning himself after
all... Strange that he doesn't like meat on his face, yet he'll gladly
bathe in mud!

jessica

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 8:31 pm ((PDT))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:
>
> I try to give my dog a piece of chicken or turkey every day or
every
> other day as it seems those are the only bones he can chow down. Is
> that adequate for his bone intake?
*****
Probably more than he needs from a nutritional perspective; not
enough for a good mental and physical workout. What size dog, how
old, any health issues that would get in the way of bone chomping?

> > He doesn't seem to be overly constipated but he stopped pooping
> everyday, it's more like every other day. Is that healthy?
*****
What do you mean overly? Not pooping every day doesn't automatically
indicate constipation. If he's got nothing worth pooping, he won't.
However, since exercise is a great motivator, perhaps if you think
he's taking too long to defecate you might give him a good walk or
other activity.

> I've been having trouble finding organs so the only organs I give
> are chicken hearts and livers.
*****
Hearts are fed as muscle meat, not organ.
Where are you looking? My guess is you haven't broadened your
horizons enough. Beef liver is sold in most grocery stores,
sometimes fresh in a tub, sometimes frozen. If you can't find it,
ask.

I also feed multiple protein sources
> (fish, goat, duck, beef and chicken, soon to try rabbit!) and offer
> cow hooves for treats. Is that enough variety?
*****
Protein variety is fine, what's the status of body part variety? In
what shape are these meat proteins getting to your dog?

> Is it ok to feed goat and rabbit if they're not grass fed or
> organic?
*****
Of course. I'd say most of us do not have access to organic
freerange, or choose not to bother. I think aiming high is the right
way to look at resources but if you can't get there you ought not
lose much sleep over it.

Most commercial goat (and lamb) is pastured. How is it you've found
feedlot goat?

I really have no idea where the meat comes from or what
> standards they have, though it is all inspected.
*****
These are things worth knowing, not only for your dog but for your
sake as well.

> I recently saw beef stomach at an ethnic food store... is that the
> same as tripe? It doesn't seem like there would be many nutrients
in
> it. Is it worth feeding?
*****
Not the same, not worth feeding. The only stomach you might try for
is the stomach that's been left with a good dose of green digesta
stuck to it. YOu will NOT find this stinky green version in a
grocery store of any sort, at all. The stomach tissues offers some
nutrients but those are not generally what people are paying for when
they buy green tripe.

> Other random items I saw:
> cow tongue
> duck tongue
> chicken feet
> chicken gizzards
> pork intestine
>
> Are any worth feeding?
*****
Cow tongue is fine, a good tough workout if you feed it in large
enough hunks. Chicken feet are amusing sources of cartilage from
which both glucosamine and chondroitin are derived. Gizzards are
muscle meat like heart but less jam packed with nutrition. When you
buy whole birds you usually get a heart, some liver, some gizzard. I
do not go out of my way to buy additional gizzards.

Duck tongue and pork intestines are not worth writing home about.

> I recently gave my dog a whole duck to consume. Previously I would
> chop up everything beforehand but feeding whole was much more
> convenient and gave him a better workout. He ate the ENTIRE thing,
> head and beak included. When he pooped it was foamy and green. Is
> that from the brain?!
*****
No, it's probably from having eaten too much fat. Ducks are
profoundly fatty. If your dog is not accustomed to the fat attached
to domestic ducks, that's what you get. I recommend you postpone
duck either indefinitely or certainly until later.

y He also swallowed a leg whole - foot included,
> which he had trouble passing. So, from now on I'll probably chop
off
> the head and limbs... or are there significant nutrients in there
he
> needs?
*****
In what way did he have trouble passing these parts? I mean, could
you SEE the parts, were they not digested? Were they actually intact
and stuck? My guess is his difficulty was related to not enough
flesh. Lots of fat, lots of bone, not enough meat.

I don't see domestic duck as being a notable investment, especially
since your menu is not laking for variety.

> Lastly, just about EVERY time after my dog eats, his face seems to
> be very itchy. He always rolls around in the grass and rubs his
nose
> and eyes in the ground.
*****
I'm sure most dogs do this at least sometimes, and some dogs do this
all the time. Perhaps he's cleaning himself off. I've always
assumed that's why all of my dogs have done it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kristin, Good idea, I'll definitely specify unseasoned meat next time.
What a DUH moment! I hadn't thought of it before and I don't like to come
off as rude so I just say thank you and deal with whatever it is at home.

I wish I had hens for fresh eggs & to get the darn grubs! I'm actually
thinking of giving it a go, but that's for another list I guess, LOL!

Mona

Of course, if I did get something I couldn't feed the dog, I bet the
hens would love it :)

Kristin

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Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Re: Chicken Necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 7:55 pm ((PDT))

, "Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
>
> Her dogs almost 8 and bene eating RAW it's whole life. Her dogs also
in
> excellent health and NEVER had a problem with the necks.
*****
I still don't understand your point.
Chris O
Please remember to trim your messages!

Messages in this topic (23)
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7b. Re: Chicken Necks
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

And that makes it appropriate how?????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@hotmail.com>

> Her dogs almost 8 and bene eating RAW it's whole life. Her dogs also in
> excellent health and NEVER had a problem with the necks.

Messages in this topic (23)
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8a. Re: Calories
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 8:16 pm ((PDT))

Susanne,

I wouldn't worry about calories at all. Feed the recommended %'s according
to ideal weight... if the dog isn't getting enough, it's easy to add a bit
more.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "susrob061174" <susrob061174@yahoo.com>

I hate to mention the word "kibbles", sorry. Someone the other day
asked me how many calories do you give to a adult GD that is very
active. I told them I dont worry about it because my dogs are on raw.
This got me thinking, how would you know how many calories you are
giving your dog while on raw or would you worry about it at all. Does
the calories only pretain to kibbles? Thanks

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: New dog, feeding question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

"Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
>
> Then why is it that pretty much every professional will tell you to
feed in
> several smaller meals to prevent bloat?
*****
I doubt very much you've asked enough professionals to come to that
conclusion. But perhaps it's the class of professionals you've
asked, assuming you have asked every professional. Perhaps the
professional is working off of old data, perhaps the professional has
an agenda that precludes getting it straight with bloat. Perhaps the
professionals you've asked are as under-educated about bloat as they
are about species appropriate nutrition.

> And that dogs are more commonly dignoised with bloat with large
meals then
> small?
*****
And this would be according to what study? By whom?

It's hard to do a study when dogs die from it and it's not a long
term
> thing.
WHAT are you talking about?

But from What I've read, heard and semiars I've been to... they get
a
> lot smaller ratio of dogs with bloat after a small meal then a
large meal.
*****
Uh huh. Well that's good to know. Who is they? Perhaps you might
share with us their research.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Re: New to Group, how do I do a raw diet meal??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 9:03 pm ((PDT))

"jessigalloway" <bjbgalloway@...> wrote:
>
> I am totally new and wondering about a raw diet. I am wanting to try
it
> with my two labs but am unsure of where to even start? How do you
make
> a meal for them?
*****
I urge you to access the list archives and read some of the
zillion "how do I?" posts that have accumulated there. I suspect there
will not be ONE question left unanswered. I think you will get more
information quicker simply by browsing the archives.

To access the archives you must join Yahoogroups (email membership does
not include Yahoogroups membership) which is easy peasy. At the bottom
of every rawfeeding post you receive is a link to yahoogroups. Once
there, simply follow the brief instructions.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Snowy's front gums are bleeding, no apparent cause...?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

Is it possible you are brushing too hard (why are you brushing)? Feeding
inappropriate bones? It certainly seems like his gums are irritated...I
just wonder what would happen if you leave his mouth alone for a few days.
Doesn't sound like it is severe enough for a vet visit, certainly not
antibiotics!

Unless he is in severe pain, I'd leave him alone, feed an appropriate diet
(no ground foods or hard bones) and see how it goes.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "shefy7" <shefy7@yahoo.com>

For the past 2 days I noticed him pawing at his mouth. I thought he
got something stuck in there but it was all clear. He has very clean
teeth by the way, thanks to the bones and brushing! However,
yesterday he was licking his paw and I noticed a drop of blood. So I
checked in his mouth and his gum was bleeding, from the upper
canine. Not a lot, but just a drop. I saw a little scratch behind
his little tooth next to the canine (I think he decided to chew some
bark in the backyard...), but that healed up. His upper gums are
reddish and inflammed and there is a little bleeding around the
canines. It's not constant bleeding though. Just after he eats or
chews on a bone. He's not even chewing his pizzle anymore :( His
favorite....

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Fwd: Message not approved: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 9:19 pm ((PDT))

> Thank you.
> I just am having a hard time understanding why someone wants to
allow the
> dog to gorge & then fast/starve their dog intentionally.
> I understand the wolf philosophy but these are still our canine
dogs;
> descendants of wolves, not wolves & they do not have to starve like
wolves
> do. they have the wonderful opportunity & luxury to be fed daily.
Why not
> just 'adopt a wolf' if that is the type of feeding a person wants
to do. It
> seems quite extreme.
> I suppose it will just be something I will not understand &
certainly would
> never ever encourage anyone to do.
> Trina
>
>
> On 10/8/07, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> > The people who feed this way are trying to replicate what might
happen
> > in nature. A wolf might go for a day or two without finding any
> > prey. Personally, I think it's overkill.
> >
> > Bill Carnes

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12b. Re: Fwd: Message not approved: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 10:08 pm ((PDT))

Trina, a dog is not starving after a gorge...he is digesting. This is the
way the canine digestive system is designed to eat.

Dogs *are* wolves...you are feeding little and big wolves in your home. :))
As much as we love and treat them like our kids, they are not. They don't
require two or three nice little tidy evenly spaced out meals per day. They
are much more satisfied when fed large consuming meals.

You don't have to feed gorge and fast method, you don't have to encourage
anyone else to do it, not everyone feeds that way, it's not a
requirement...but it is not extreme, it is not overkill, it is normal!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>

> > I just am having a hard time understanding why someone wants to
> allow the
> > dog to gorge & then fast/starve their dog intentionally.
> > I understand the wolf philosophy but these are still our canine
> dogs;
> > descendants of wolves, not wolves & they do not have to starve like
> wolves
> > do. they have the wonderful opportunity & luxury to be fed daily.
> Why not
> > just 'adopt a wolf' if that is the type of feeding a person wants
> to do. It
> > seems quite extreme.
> > I suppose it will just be something I will not understand &
> certainly would
> > never ever encourage anyone to do.

Messages in this topic (3)
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12c. Re: Fwd: Message not approved: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 10:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
Allowing the dog to follow his, uh, stomach, and eat to his
heart's content ^_^ and then not offering them another big meal right
away is just trying to replicate the natural pattern in the wild.

I offer Bea BIG Food about twice a month. Its up to her if she eats
until she's replete, or if she eats some at a time, over a few days,
until its gone. She gets the same amount either way. Her choice.

Recently, she's been eating maybe one or two days worth when offered
BIG food. More often, she eats maybe three-four days worth at a time.

The first day after a fast, she gets nothing. By nothing, I mean no
meal. I train with her every day, often short sessions a couple-few
times a day. I mostly use a very high rate of reinforcement with
treats (usually raw), as she's often learning or polishing, some new
behavior around the house or on a walk. When she goes with me in the
van, she gets a treat every time she gets in, as she *still* has
issues from her past life with this. If I eat out, she often gets a
snip of something, for bing a good dog and waiting for me (I used to
have a Schip that blew the horn when he was tired of sitting in the
van). When I cook, or have a snack at home, she gets a bit for being a
sweet girl, lying near me and not begging.

For a day or two after a real gorge, she'll get a snack, several
gizzards or hearts or a pork neck bone to chew, something little. Then
she goes back on a regular-one-meal-a-day schedule, or a bigger meal
every other day.

She's NOT deprived, and is relaxed about feeding times, but ever
hopeful, even after a real gorge meal. She ALWAYS has room for a
special treat!

I'm not a monster, nor is anyone who feeds their dog this way. We are
not being arbitrary or tyrannical. We just have a slightly different
perspective, and maybe are a little more relaxed about feeding.

Feeding this way has helped Bea to be more calm and relaxed about
food. She had some real issues with food guarding when she came to me.
Being able to eat her fill at some meals has been one useful way to
help teach her that food is not a scarce resource to be guarded at all
costs.

I would NEVER adopt a wolf, because they are the descendants of wolves
*who did NOT choose a life with humans*. Our dogs are descendants of
wolves who, for whatever reasons, chose to live near, then among
humans. We evolved together, depending on one another. The modern
world would be a better place if more people depended on dogs the way
they do on us.

Bea could afford to lose a few pounds. So could I. Maybe we'll take it
off on the walks we've started again, since the evenings are getting
cooler now.

TC
Giselle

> > Thank you.
> > I just am having a hard time understanding why someone wants to
> allow the
> > dog to gorge & then fast/starve their dog intentionally.
<snip>
> > I suppose it will just be something I will not understand &
> certainly would
> > never ever encourage anyone to do.
> > Trina

Messages in this topic (3)
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13a. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
Posted by: "ryanbadie" ryanbadie@yahoo.com ryanbadie
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM AND SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. The information
Im unsure about is the crushing of the bones I read about
occasionally. What is the purpose of this and is it necessary?

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 9:27 pm ((PDT))

No, it's not necessary to crush bones. It may have been recommended for a
dog just beginning or lacking teeth, but is not the norm. Certainly not
beef bones!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ryanbadie" <ryanbadie@yahoo.com>

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. The information
Im unsure about is the crushing of the bones I read about
occasionally. What is the purpose of this and is it necessary?

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. itchy spot/hot spot?
Posted by: "rocketblasther" jforbes05@sbcglobal.net rocketblasther
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 9:31 pm ((PDT))

Hello Everyone,
My GSD has what I think is a hot spot, I'm not sure what a hot spot
actually mean, but she keep scratching at one spot with her teeth. I
checked the spot in question and it appears to be what look like a
sore that she can't let heel. I'm going out to buy an E-Collar, but I
was wondering if there is anything that I could use to help soothe and
heal her hot spot? At one point I was feeding her a lot of chicken and
I think this started the problem. She now eats chicken, only once,
maybe twice a week, as oppose to four times a week.

Any Suggestions would Help,
Jim & Sara

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. Re: Some thoughts/questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Fiona!
YQW!

No real need to answer the replies separately.

You can copy and paste parts of different responses into one email to
comment on if you want. Use WordPad or NotePad in the Start menu under
Accessories. Or, you can use Gmail, and have all the messages on one topic
appear together in your email. Much better than glitchy hotmail! ; )

I'm glad you found so much great information to give you confidence to feed
raw!

Bigger food can be a little puzzling for dogs at first, when they are used
to getting their meals in little brown nuggets. It's enjoyable to sit back
and watch them figure out how to eat REAL food!

The first time I gave Bea a fresh pork ham, I had to slash it deeply, so she
would have something to grab onto. And her first turkey? She looked at me
like, "Where do I start?" I pulled the wings out and yanked the legs 'n
thighs until the joints popped, to give her something to tug on.

Did I give you these links?

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758*

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/13433*

*Message #134336*
TC and keep us posted!
Giselle

<snip>

> > Hello everyone. This is my first post. I have a 15 month old
> > Tamaskan dog (Ayasca)who I have been feeding raw since he was around
> 4 months (>
> > Any comments/advice would be gratefully received.
> >
> >
> Hello again
>
> I just wanted to thank Andrea, Bill, Chris O and Giselle for their
> replies. I'm a bit of a forum novice and don't actually know whether I
> should reply to each message.
> <snip>
>
> Anyway, thanks again folks and I'm sure I'll be back with some more
> questions in the near future.
>
> Fiona and Ayasca
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

16a. Re: beef tongue
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Pam!
Tongue is a fattier meatymeat, so it might be best if you cut
a small bit off and add it to a meal with bone to avoid the dreaded
cannon butt. Gradually increase the size of the chunk you add with
each meal, unless/until you get an unwanted digestive response.

No need to cut meatymeat into teensy bits, unless it comes to you of a
size for easy gulping. Just hack off a likely looking collop, and a
bigger one the next day, and the next, until its all gone.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have a 13 month old boxer who has been eating raw for 2 months. I
just got a huge cow tongue. I know it is considered muscle meat, not
organ, but how big of a piece should I feed him the first time? I
did precut it into sections approx 2 inches high & 3 inches wide.
> Thanks,
> Pam

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

17a. Re: WOW! Love the results after nearly 2 weeks!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Alicia!
KEWL!!!

I love to hear the good news!

TC
Giselle

> Just had to share that our 3yo GSD and 12yo Yellow Lab have really
> taken to the raw diet. We have almost finished our 2nd week on raw
> and the results are showing. Moose, our GSD, seemed to respond with
> new energy the first week.
<snip>
Well, now she follows me to the barn and hangs out while I do chores.
She's even taken to carrying around a stick
> in case someone wants to throw a couple for her (so long as Moose
> isn't too close - he's a stick hog). She's just up and moving more
> than she has in quite some time.
<snip>
> Thanks to all who help guide and advise us newbies.
> Alicia
>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12136

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
From: Sonja

2a. Re: black tarry poop
From: Giselle

3a. Re: feeding schedule
From: Michael Moore

4a. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: kiu101
4b. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: katkellm
4c. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: tottime47
4d. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: T Smith
4e. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: {Raw Feeding} OT - My female hasn't come into heat!
From: Gail Edmond
5b. Re: {Raw Feeding} OT - My female hasn't come into heat!
From: Brandi Bryant

6a. Re: NEED MORE ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS FOR MOLLY
From: tottime47

7a. Re: New dog, feeding question
From: katkellm
7b. Re: New dog, feeding question
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: Pregnant and off feed
From: Renate

9. New to Group, how do I do a raw diet meal??
From: jessigalloway

10a. Re: Pup off feed
From: T Smith

11a. Calories
From: susrob061174
11b. Re: Calories
From: carnesbill

12a. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
From: girlndocs
12b. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
From: thebestformyboys

13a. Snowy's front gums are bleeding, no apparent cause...?
From: shefy7
13b. Re: Snowy's front gums are bleeding, no apparent cause...?
From: carnesbill

14. Raw Feeding while I'm Pregnant
From: rach9876

15.1. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: shefy gupta

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock"
<jess.hamway@...> wrote:
>
> I try to give my dog a piece of chicken or turkey every day
> or every
> other day as it seems those are the only bones he can chow
> down. Is
> that adequate for his bone intake?

Yes, definately.

> He doesn't seem to be overly constipated but he stopped pooping
> everyday, it's more like every other day. Is that healthy?

Of course it is. He will poop when he has something to poop.

> I've been having trouble finding organs so the only organs I give
> are chicken hearts and livers.

You should be able to find beef liver in most every grocery store.

> I also feed multiple protein sources
> (fish, goat, duck, beef and chicken, soon to try rabbit!
> and offer
> cow hooves for treats. Is that enough variety?

Yes, but I also suggest some pork occasionally. It's cheap and easy
to find.

> Is it ok to feed goat and rabbit if they're not grass fed or
> organic? I really have no idea where the meat comes from or what
> standards they have, though it is all inspected.

Sure. I think grassfed and organic are hightly overrated anyway.

> I recently saw beef stomach at an ethnic food store... is that the
> same as tripe?

No, don't bother with it.

> Other random items I saw:
> cow tongue
> duck tongue
> chicken feet
> chicken gizzards
> pork intestine
>
> Are any worth feeding?

I don't feed any of those although I have fed cow tongue a few
times. It's just more trouble than it's worth. I prefer beef heart.

> He ate the ENTIRE thing,
> head and beak included. When he pooped it was foamy and green. Is
> that from the brain?!

> He also swallowed a leg whole - foot included,
> which he had trouble passing. So, from now on I'll probably
> chop off
> the head and limbs... or are there significant nutrients in
> there he needs?

In the head, yes. Not that he can't live without eating heads. He
can live a long healthy life never eating another head but there are
some good stuff in it.

> Lastly, just about EVERY time after my dog eats, his face seems to
> be very itchy.

I can't help with this. Mine never do this.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

> Lastly, just about EVERY time after my dog eats, his face seems to
> be very itchy.

I might be able to help with this. The world is my dog's napkin after she eats raw. She's usually so thrilled and happy after eating raw that it ALMOST competes with the "after bath" roll in the grass. She'll walk along the length of our large couch and drag her face along it. She'll throw her face into the carpet and push herself along to get a good rub on her face. She's not itchy, she's just happy. If it's her way of rubbing off leftovers around our house, I don't know, she's always as clean as a whistle when she's done eating.

Could that be a possibility? Does your dog just rub its face like mine or is it using its paw to scratch, too??

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: black tarry poop
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

By, George, she's got it!

; )

TC
Giselle

On 10/8/07, Caren OConnor <cavkist@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Giselle -
> Great analogy:) I got it now. What goes it directly affects what comes
> out! Perfect!
> Caren O'Connor
> Nansemond Cavaliers
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: feeding schedule
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

>>I noticed several posts indicating some of you feed more than once a
day. I was wondering if it is OK to feed once a day in the morning
like I do or is there a compelling reason with this model of eating to
feed twice a day. <<

Boy, Nancy, guess I've missed those! If I had to guess, I'd say more people on this list feed once a day or less. I started with twice dailys because, well, that's what I'd done previously, but moved quickly to once daily feedings. Occasionally, I do gorge feeding, then nothing the next day, but usually feed once daily.
The biggest benefit to feeding once daily (besides being more convenient for me!) is that I can feed larger pieces/parts to my dogs.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "kiu101" kiu101@yahoo.com kiu101
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

Plenty of people feed once a day. Some people don't have time to
monitor their pets in the morning so they feed at night when more time
is available.

Some even do the the gorge and fast method. They would let their pets
eat as much as they can in one sitting and fast them the next day. This
replicates the wild where dogs or wolfs don't get to eat every day. So
when they do bring down prey they eat as much as they can because they
don't know when the next meal will be.

Ken

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
>
> Hi to the group...
>
> I noticed several posts indicating some of you feed more than once a
> day. I was wondering if it is OK to feed once a day in the morning
> like I do or is there a compelling reason with this model of eating
to
> feed twice a day.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nancy
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
> I was wondering if it is OK to feed once a day in the morning
> like I do or is there a compelling reason with this model of eating to
> feed twice a day.
>
Hi Nancy,
Feeding once a day is great. Some posts talk about feeding more than
once a day, but mostly that is a recommendation for newbie dogs who
are just starting raw and are use to eating more often or are having
trouble adjusting. I think that feeding once a day is preferable to
twice because you can offer your dog bigger hunks of food which means
that they get a better dental workout and more challenging eating.
Some of us even feed less often than once a day. This wouldn't be a
good idea for a newbie dog, but would be something to keep in mind
down the road away. KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi Nancy,

I have small dogs and need to feed twice a day, as they can get low
blood sugar easier.

Some with big dogs feed once a day and some only every other day.

Whatever works for you is fine!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
I was wondering if it is OK to feed once a day in the morning
> like I do
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nancy

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 5:16 pm ((PDT))

I am asking this nicely:
What is the point of this type of feeding?

"Some even do the the gorge and fast method. They would let their pets

> eat as much as they can in one sitting and fast them the next day. This
> replicates the wild where dogs or wolfs don't get to eat every day. So
> when they do bring down prey they eat as much as they can because they
> don't know when the next meal will be. Ken ""
>

Trina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4e. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> I am asking this nicely:
> What is the point of this type of feeding?
>
> "Some even do the the gorge and fast method.

The people who feed this way are trying to replicate what might happen
in nature. A wolf might go for a day or two without finding any
prey. Personally, I think it's overkill.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: {Raw Feeding} OT - My female hasn't come into heat!
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

My shih was 10 months old when she first came into heat.

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: Brandi Bryant <bbryant573@gmail.com>
To: [Raw Feeding] <rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 8 October, 2007 6:41:51 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] {Raw Feeding} OT - My female hasn't come into heat!

My Whippet mix who's not quite 10 months old hasn't come into heat, yet!
I'm not really all that concerned, because she's eating, she playing and
acting normal. Has anybody else experience this? Oh, and the male dogs
that I do have are fixed.

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetraini ngclubofbartlesv ille.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
now.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: {Raw Feeding} OT - My female hasn't come into heat!
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 4:06 pm ((PDT))

Ok, thank you that makes me feel better. I'm gonna have her spayed soon.
I'm not really in that big of a hurry to do it just yet...

thanks again,
Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

On 10/8/07, Gail Edmond <windybond1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> My shih was 10 months old when she first came into heat.
>
> Recent Activity
>
> - 123
> New Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMnVlZDBkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc0MjM1MjYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDIxMDgwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExOTE4ODMxNTQ->
>
> Visit Your Group
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>
> Useful info for the
>
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>
> Check it out<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j2ckbeh/M=493064.11127061.11695037.8674578/D=groups/S=1707421080:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1191890354/A=4763759/R=0/SIG=11ou7otip/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/bestofyahoogroups/>
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--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: NEED MORE ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS FOR MOLLY
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 4:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi Nancy,

Maybe you could try adding a little slippery elm bark powder to her
meals, or make some little meat balls with the slippery elm bark
powder inside them and give her one several times a day for a day.

It won't harm her if you have to do it for a couple of days. It is
just a stomach and bowl coating that gives the intestine time to heal
if it's irritated.

You can get SEBP capsules at any health food store or drug store or
even from Walmart in a pinch.
There are also good brands you can order online.

Sometimes when they get diarrhea the bowls remain a little irritated,
even after their tummy settles down.

I have a smaller dog and one capsule over one day seems to straighten
him out.

Hope this helps you some.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:

> I posted to the group last Friday about my 1 year old wheaten
terrier
> Molly who was having her first episode of explosive diarrhea

Nancy

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: New dog, feeding question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 4:20 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
>> Then why is it that pretty much every professional will tell you to
feed in several smaller meals to prevent bloat?

Hi Kaitlin,
Most professionals will also tell you to feed kibble. All of the
bloat studies that have been done, regardless of whether you view them
as flawed or inconclusive or definitive, have been done on kibble fed
dogs. These studies don't apply to raw fed dogs. Meals that have to
be worked on to eat, versus small gulping ones, allows the stomach to
stretch and strengthen and function as Mother Nature designed a wolf's
stomach to, and the closer we can stick to the plan the less the chance
of trouble. To the best of my knowledge, limited as it is, we have
never had a report of a raw fed dog bloating after a big meal. jmo,
KathyM

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: New dog, feeding question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 5:17 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...>
wrote:
>
> Then why is it that pretty much every professional will tell
> you to feed in
> several smaller meals to prevent bloat?

Because they think they have to have an answer. They don't have the
ability to say, "I don't know." Actually NO ONE knows that causes
bloat. My studies seem to show bloat to be more related to stress
than any other single factor.

> And that dogs are more commonly dignoised with bloat with
> large meals then small?

Where do you get that information? I don't believe it.

> It's hard to do a study when dogs die from it and it's not a
> long term
> thing. But from What I've read, heard and semiars I've been
> to... they get a
> lot smaller ratio of dogs with bloat after a small meal then
> a large meal.

Unfounded urban legend. Most dogs who bloat don't bloat after a
meal. Bloating seems to have no relationship to eating. Don't
believe everything you read or see in a seminar.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Pregnant and off feed
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 4:21 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, Gail. There are really no signs so far other than this eating thing
and lots of sleeping. But I caught them tied 3 times so that just verifies
it.
Renate

On 10/8/07, Gail Edmond <windybond1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Havent bred myself but my friend who breeds her bitch always go's off
> her food and she uses that as a sign that she is pregnant.
>
> Gail
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com <renate.tideswell%40gmail.com>>
> To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 October, 2007 12:17:36 AM
> Subject: [rawfeeding] Pregnant and off feed
>
> We are in about the 3rd week of raw. I had introduced some pork ribs in
> addition to the chicken. Suddenly 3 days ago, Bella my shih tzu bitch who
> is 3 weeks pregnant, stopped eating. I just kept taking it away and
> bringing it back. As far as I know she's eaten nothing except maybe cat
> poo
> in 3 days. I'm getting worried now. In these circumstances should I
> persist? I tried sprinkling her chicken with garlic (which she usually
> loves) and she still wouldn't eat it. She's been sleeping a lot but that
> started a couple of weeks ago and I put it down to the pregnancy. She only
> weighs about 9lbs, so I am quite concerned at this point. Should I try
> feeding her something else? If so, what? She is quite a prima donna, so
> at first I wasn't concerned too much, but this is going on a bit.
>
> --
> Renate
> 'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good
> http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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9. New to Group, how do I do a raw diet meal??
Posted by: "jessigalloway" bjbgalloway@aol.com jessigalloway
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 5:16 pm ((PDT))

I am totally new and wondering about a raw diet. I am wanting to try it
with my two labs but am unsure of where to even start? How do you make
a meal for them?

Jessi
WA

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Pup off feed
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 5:17 pm ((PDT))

On 10/8/07, harrynala <michelle@synertex.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Anyway, I was closely monitoring her and saw a live worm in her grass
> poo (that's all it consisted of, pure undigested grass), so promptly
> dewormed her with DrontalPlus. No more worms came out as far as I
> could tell and sickness stopped.
>

Usually that medicine will disinegrate the worms.

This is really unlike her as she's always had a huge appetite. All
> other aspects are fine, bright, lively, poos fine, not visibly losing
> any weight etc.
>
> Not sure if I should be worried, or whether she's just naturally not
> needing all the food now she's got rid of her worm?
>

I think this is correct

Not sure how to proceed really. Not much point going to the vet as I

> live in rural Bulgaria where veterinary care is still a bit primitive
> when it comes to the finer points!
>

I think if she does eat, looks good, acts healthy, she is fine.

Trina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Calories
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 5:17 pm ((PDT))

Susanne

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Calories
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "susrob061174" <susrob061174@...>
wrote:
>
> This got me thinking, how would you know how many calories you are
> giving your dog while on raw or would you worry about it at all.

Calories pertain to everything you eat. I don't worry about
calories my dogs eat because I just monitor their build and adjust
food amounts accordingly.

If you feel you must calculate calories that you feed, check out

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ ... when you enter
search criteria be sure to use the word "raw" ... for example "raw
chicken" or "raw beef" etc. You will find that chicken quarters
have 237kcal/100grams. I'm not sure how that translates into
calories. I think its more complicated than just 1,000 calories.
I'm sure someone here can tell you. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 5:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi Laurie,

> I'm reading on this list that there isn't really a need to
> supplement. I'm having a hard time with this! I don't understand how
> crunching up bones will replace some of these things.

It's really very, very simple :) Humans have one set of nutritional
requirements. Dogs have nutritional requirements too, but they are
totally and completely different.

All this supplementing and mixing and veggies and grains -- that is
thinking in terms of HUMAN nutrition.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (6)
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12b. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
Posted by: "thebestformyboys" llb6984@comcast.net thebestformyboys
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

> I'm new to the group and have been lurking for a week or two. I'm
not
> new to raw feeding though and have been rawfeeding my two 3 1/2
year
> old Golden Retrievers Logan and Cooper for 2 1/2 years along with
> three kittens from 8weeks.
>
> I joined this group for a few reasons. I'm so tired of cutting meat
>

Both the boys had a chicken leg quarter for dinner tonight. It went
great! Cooper knew exactly what to do and polished it off in about 10
minutes. No problem.
Logan was unsure and needed a little help. I cut some on the leg and
got some pieces hanging off he he'd chew them off and stop and wait.
I did it 3 times, then he got the hang of it and finished in about 20
minutes. My husband and I are thrilled. The dogs are thrilled!

Thanks to everyone for their responses, I will now have more time to
research! I went from a support group of about 1000 members to this
huge group and I feel like I've hit a gold mine!

We've decided not to add all the stuff we were adding (supplements,
etc.) and see how it goes.

Thanks for your help,

Laurie B
Port St. Lucie, FL
Golden brothers, Logan & Cooper

Messages in this topic (6)
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13a. Snowy's front gums are bleeding, no apparent cause...?
Posted by: "shefy7" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 5:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi Everyone,

Snowy has been doing great! His behavior is extremely better than
when I first got him. He's potty trained, obedient, affectionate. I
recently added in Oma's pride meats along with his bravo... He's on
a meat and bone only diet. Once in awhile I'll give him a little
apple or carrot.

I thought it would go away thinking it was just irritation, but it's
not. I rubbed coconut oil on his gums for an antibacterial... Today
I checked and his lower canine was also bleeding a bit. Now I mean
where the gum stops and the tooth visibly starts... He's also being
aggressive/defensive when I try to check his mouth.

He's really healthy otherwise, but he does seem bothered by this.
He's eating with his front teeth, like scraping the food as though
he's getting relief from the frozen meat. I've scheduled an
appointment with the vet tomorrow. I'm guessing she'll want to do
antibiotics since he's got great teeth (he's 1.5 years old btw) and
no other apparent cause...

I just wanted to have all of your opinions as to what this may be?
The only new thing I can think of is I gave him pheasant for the
first time on Friday...Maybe it was infected with something and that
got in his gums? Or the bark he chewed into was?

Thanks in advance everyone,

Shefy and Snowy

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: Snowy's front gums are bleeding, no apparent cause...?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "shefy7" <shefy7@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I
> recently added in Oma's pride meats along with his bravo...
> He's on
> a meat and bone only diet.

Two contradictory statements. Is he on a meat and bone diet or
Oma's pride paddies and Bravo paddies?

> His upper gums are
> reddish and inflammed and there is a little bleeding around the
> canines. It's not constant bleeding though. Just after he eats or
> chews on a bone. He's not even chewing his pizzle anymore :( His
> favorite....

What kind of bone is he chewing on? What you are describing COULD
be the beginnings of periodontal disease. This won't happen if you
are feeding a real raw diet of animal parts instead of paddies. I'm
not 100% sure exactly what you are feeding.

> I've scheduled an
> appointment with the vet tomorrow. I'm guessing she'll want to do
> antibiotics since he's got great teeth (he's 1.5 years old
> btw) and no other apparent cause...

IF your dog has periodontal disease the apparant cause it an
improper diet. Like I said, I'm not sure what you are feeding so I
may be all wet.

> The only new thing I can think of is I gave him pheasant for the
> first time on Friday...Maybe it was infected with something
> and that got in his gums?

Real pheasant or pheasant paddies. If its real pheasant, I can
assure you it wasn't infected with something that got into his gums.

> Or the bark he chewed into was?

Nope, not the bark either.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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14. Raw Feeding while I'm Pregnant
Posted by: "rach9876" rach9876@yahoo.com rach9876
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

I just found out about a week ago that I am pregnant. I am a little
nervous about continuing to feed raw bc I have no idea if or how the
bacteria would effect a developing fetus. I am not saying that it
would, just that I am clueless as to the risk, if there is any. I
understand that since I have a normal immune system, most of the
bacteria such as salmonella would not hurt me but would it effect a
fetus? I know people cook meat while they are pregnant without blinking
an eye, but I am handling raw meat every day, twice a day, and not just
chicken or beef but pork brains and cow intestines. Of course, i wash
my hands and the countertops off each time. I guess i just reassurance
that it is ok to continue to feed my dog raw and that i am not posing
any threat to the baby. Thanks.

Rachel

Messages in this topic (1)
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15.1. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

oh goodness, don't let the vet do surgery on her if it's not necessary. NO WAY! I hope she is ok. bone should show up in an xray.... take another if necessary to see where it is and if it's causing the problem...maybe it just scratched her esophagus on the way down and that's causing the inflammation...

stay with her, she needs you.

best

shefy and snowy

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
Of course the bone will digest. Do not let the vet do surgery!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From:

> I am new to this area, and I do not know this vet at all.? I went to the
nearest place.? He stabilized her and took x-rays immediately.? There is
nothing odd in the x-ray, no blockage now, but her little throat(remember
this is a frenchie) was so swollen and irritated that she was choking on all
the saliva.? She is on O2 and IV's and is doing well, she is calm and though
she is still having a hard time breathing, it is not because she has a
blocked airway.? NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take out
whatever is in her stomach!? That sound slike a disaster to me, all the
secondary infections of opening a gutt!
> Does anyone have any advice?? If she got the bone down, will it
digest...PLEASE HELP ME!

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12135

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. New Member Intro--sorry long
From: thebestformyboys
1b. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
From: Andrea
1c. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
From: carnesbill
1d. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Raw Beef ribs?
From: ryanbadie
2b. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
From: Andrea
2c. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
From: carnesbill

3. WOW! Love the results after nearly 2 weeks!
From: aliciamyan

4a. Re: fast results?
From: Melissa
4b. Re: fast results?
From: alexanderdewey
4c. Re: fast results?/new subject ticks
From: Lene Andersen

5a. Re: Chicken Necks
From: Melissa
5b. Re: Chicken Necks
From: Kaitlin Fraser

6a. Re: black tarry poop/reply
From: ginny wilken

7a. What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethora of
From: spricketysprock
7b. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
From: Andrea
7c. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
From: Lene Andersen

8a. Re: {Raw Feeding} An idea on how to get meat - brainstorming?
From: tillandsiausneoides

9. New to raw diet and need help on getting started...Thanks!!
From: fanhchan

10a. Re: New dog, feeding question
From: Sandee Lee
10b. Re: New dog, feeding question
From: Kaitlin Fraser

11a. Re: Pregnant and off feed
From: Gail Edmond

12. NEED MORE ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS FOR MOLLY
From: miensasis

13a. Re: overweight PWD
From: Gail Edmond

14. FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: miensasis

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. New Member Intro--sorry long
Posted by: "thebestformyboys" llb6984@comcast.net thebestformyboys
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:45 am ((PDT))

I'm new to the group and have been lurking for a week or two. I'm not
new to raw feeding though and have been rawfeeding my two 3 1/2 year
old Golden Retrievers Logan and Cooper for 2 1/2 years along with
three kittens from 8weeks.

I joined this group for ta few reasons. I'm so tired of cutting meat
for 2 75lb dogs and three kittens I could cry (and sometimes do).
And both dogs have stinky breath, one has almost spotless teeth and
the the other's teeth are distusting, brown tartar covered. This dog
(Logan) also has nasty ears.....from 8 weeks to 3 1/2 years. They
haven't looked perfect for more than 2 months at any one time.
Both dogs have loose stools more often than not it seems. Not fun
with those feathers on a golden retriever :(

This diet has been a wonderful improvement on their overall health,
coats, temperment. You don't have to convince me that raw is the only
way--I could never go back to garbage in a bag. But obviously
something is lacking or just wrong. I thought I was doing good by
refusing to serve ground meat. But.....lapping up cubes and
swallowing really isn't any different!

Quick review of their diet: Morning meal : Grains (I also fed long
time without) Currently no grains for a week I'm over it and so are
they! Cubed chicken about 5oz each-little more since no grains.
Yogurt or kefir, safflower oil, blackstrap molassas, vit c, b
complex, vit e, fish oil pill, little bone meal, a little raw pureed
veggie. 4 eggs per week. (yes, i drag all this out before going to
work each day, don't forget 3 kittens)
Evening meal: Usually beef and liver sometimes chicken and liver. I
also add some heart, kidney, gizzards couple times per week. This is
coated with a powered dry mix of: Wheat bran, wheat germ, kelp, vit
c, nutritional yeast, bone meal and a fish oil pill. Garlic, cod
liver oil, a green leafy veggie, raw, pureed. See what I mean! This
is 5 days per week , we have 2 no meat days, one of which is a 1/2
day fast.
They get raw chunks of veggies and homemade liver treats for snacks.
You can see why I want my life back.
I'm reading on this list that there isn't really a need to
supplement. I'm having a hard time with this! I don't understand how
crunching up bones will replace some of these things. I'm trying to
not think about balancing too much. This diet felt safe....it is
backed up with years and years of blood work. But as I run out of
things I will not replace them and see how it goes. I KNOW I'll get
improved oral health with RMB diet, and maybe one of these
supplements is causing ear problems. I will stop the bone meal
immediately (can't wait to get rid of this) as I like to start them
on some crunchable bones tonight maybe.
I 'm a little nervous on what to start with. I bought some chicken
backs and some whole leg quarters. Cooper has a huge head and mouth
so I thought a leg quarter for him, he is a power chewer. Logan has a
much smaller mouth and is picky (and lazy) and examines everything
before eating so maybe a chicken back for him? The back doesn't look
like enough but would 2 be two much bone? I'd hate to add any chunked
meat to a crunchy bone meal.
I'm so excited about not cutting meat! You have no idea. Any
suggestions to help my first few meals go smoothly would be
appreciated.
I'm sure I'll have lots more questions as I add variety. I promise to
keep future posts short!

Laurie B
Port St. Lucie, FL

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

Laurie, I'm so glad you found us! Just reading what you do every day
made my anxiety level rise, there's soooo much time involved there!
Get ready because your life is about to get a whole lot easier.

The problems you have with stinky breath and bad teeth will be easily
taken care of once you start feeding whole foods. Cutting out the
supplements will probably solve the nasty ear problem too.

I'm sure it isn't easy to get off of oversupplementing. You could
take our word for it that a varied raw diet isn't lacking in vitamins
or such, but I'll bet it isn't that easy, right? Why don't you make
a list of all the supplements you give and list why that supplement
is "necessary." Then ask yourself if a healthy dog should need this
supplement. If it is a necessary vitamin, amino acid, etc. I'll bet
it is found in appropriate amounts in the meat/bones/organs of a prey
animal. If you have questions on specific supplements and why they
aren't needed, feel free to ask on the raw chat list.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat

As far as how to start, it's really simple compared to what you have
been doing. Buy a chicken, cut it into quarters, feed quarter to
dog. Usually I advise that newbie dogs get just chicken with no
organs for a week or two, and you might want to cut the organ out for
the first week just so you can make sure their stools are good. No
more worrying about chopping, pureeing veggies, rolling in oats,
etc. Doesn't that sound nice?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "thebestformyboys" <llb6984@...>
wrote:

> Quick review of their diet: Morning meal : Grains (I also fed long
> time without) Currently no grains for a week I'm over it and so are
> they! Cubed chicken about 5oz each-little more since no grains.
> Yogurt or kefir, safflower oil, blackstrap molassas, vit c, b
> complex, vit e, fish oil pill, little bone meal, a little raw
> pureed veggie. 4 eggs per week.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "thebestformyboys" <llb6984@...>
wrote:
>

Hey Laurie,
I'm glad your eyes are finally opening. I think a lot of us when
the route you went in the beginning. The problem is you are
equating dog(carnivore) nutrition with human(Omnivore) nutrition.
All the nutrients a dog needs is in meat, bones, and organs.

My dogs have not had a veggie, fruit, grain, or any other supplement
in 5 years and they are very healthy with good ears, good breath,
good coats, etc. I think your dog's problems are directly related
to oversupplementation.

> But.....lapping up cubes and
> swallowing really isn't any different!

Exactly correct.

> I'm reading on this list that there isn't really a need to
> supplement. I'm having a hard time with this! I don't
> understand how
> crunching up bones will replace some of these things.

Crunching up bones doesn't replace anything except the bone meal you
have been feedng AND it keeps the teeth, gums, and entire mouth
healthy. You see, you were feeding all they needed and much much
more. Meat, bones, and organs contain all the nutrients your dogs
need for a long healthy life. If you wonder what nutrients are in
the food you feed, you may go to

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ ... this is a web page
by the USDA and lists the nutrients in different foods. In your
search criteria use the word raw (raw chicken, raw beef, etc).

If nutrients were missing from this diet, wolves would have gone
extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago.

> ... maybe one of these
> supplements is causing ear problems.

Without a doubt, one, maybe more were causing that problem and
probably others.

> I 'm a little nervous on what to start with. I bought some chicken
> backs and some whole leg quarters.

Cool, I feed backs every day and quarters about 3 times a week.

> Cooper has a huge head and mouth
> so I thought a leg quarter for him, he is a power chewer.
> Logan has a
> much smaller mouth and is picky (and lazy) and examines everything
> before eating so maybe a chicken back for him?

You can feed both dogs backs and both dogs quarters, they will be
fine. :)

> The back doesn't look
> like enough but would 2 be two much bone? I'd hate to add any
> chunked
> meat to a crunchy bone meal.

Adding meat to any meal is ok. I often add beef heart to meals 3 or
4 times a week. Sometimes I add other meat.

> I'm so excited about not cutting meat! You have no idea. Any
> suggestions to help my first few meals go smoothly would be
> appreciated.

Some people on here buy whole chickens and cut them up. I prefer to
buy chicken parts. No cutting and they are cheaper. I buy backs by
the case and I buy quarters at Walmart in 10lb bags. Both are very
cheap when bought that way.

You are really going to love this once you get your new routine
set. :) :) :)

Ask questions whenever you feel the need.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: New Member Intro--sorry long
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:30 pm ((PDT))

Oh my....yes, I can see why you want your life back. Yikes! Get rid of all
the ground up concoctions, the veggies and supplements, buy a nice chicken
and hand to dog! See, isn't that simple?????

Seriously, dogs are carnivores. Everything they require is found in the
diet nature designed...meat and lots of it in nice large hunks, a little
bone and organs. Much of what you are feeding is not only unnecessary, but
definitely contributing to nasty teeth, and most likely responsible for
loose stools and nasty ears. You don't need a replacement for any of that
stuff.

And BTW, bloodwork cannot determine whether a diet is nutritionally sound.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "thebestformyboys" <llb6984@comcast.net>

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Raw Beef ribs?
Posted by: "ryanbadie" ryanbadie@yahoo.com ryanbadie
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: please sign your posts ***

Hi Im new to raw feeding. Can I just give my 1 year old dog a slab of
ribs for his first raw meal or do i need to crush the bones and cut it
into smaller pieces? Im getting contradictory info. Thanks

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

Beef ribs aren't the best idea for first meal, IMO. There isn't much
meat per se, but there is a lot of fat which will probably give the
newbie dog loose stools. Beef rib bones aren't always consumed by dogs
and they are too dense for the first time bone intro for me. If the
dog eats the bone and the stomach isn't ready to digest it you'll end
up with bone bit bile vomit, which is pretty distressing the first time
you see it. It would be much better to start with a meatier meal with
some easy peasy bone inside.

Later on, beef rib slabs are good fun.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ryanbadie" <ryanbadie@...> wrote:

> Hi Im new to raw feeding. Can I just give my 1 year old dog a slab of
> ribs for his first raw meal or do i need to crush the bones and cut it
> into smaller pieces? Im getting contradictory info. Thanks
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ryanbadie" <ryanbadie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Im new to raw feeding. Can I just give my 1 year old dog
> a slab of
> ribs for his first raw meal or do i need to crush the bones
> and cut it
> into smaller pieces? Im getting contradictory info. Thanks

You don't get a whole lot of conflicting info here about beginning a
raw diet. I don't think anyone suggests beginning a raw diet with
beef or beef ribs. Most suggest chicken to begin with because bones
are relatively soft and the meat is relatively easily digested. I
suggest beginning with chicken backs. Others suggest chicken
quarters or half chickens.

IMO Beginning with beef is asking for trouble.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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3. WOW! Love the results after nearly 2 weeks!
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

Just had to share that our 3yo GSD and 12yo Yellow Lab have really
taken to the raw diet. We have almost finished our 2nd week on raw
and the results are showing. Moose, our GSD, seemed to respond with
new energy the first week. We are waiting for his coat to catch up
with his demeanor, and it seems to be (a new sheen is appearing a bit
more each day and the shedding is slowing down a bit). Flicka is
arthritic and spends most of her days napping on her bed. She'll
greet us from her bed with a wag of the tail and occasionally will
follow us to the car. Well, now she follows me to the barn and hangs
out while I do chores. She's even taken to carrying around a stick
in case someone wants to throw a couple for her (so long as Moose
isn't too close - he's a stick hog). She's just up and moving more
than she has in quite some time. Flicka was also in need of loosing
a few pounds - which was near impossible before. Moose had little to
no interest in his k****e, so Flicka, being the garbage gut she is,
would move quick to finish his leftovers before one of us removed his
dish. Now, there are no leftovers. She gets her serving and that's
it - and she seems satisfied with what she gets since it takes a bit
longer to consume.

Thanks to all who help guide and advise us newbies.
Alicia

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: fast results?
Posted by: "Melissa" mwood8402@yahoo.com mwood8402
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

I noticed the stools, breath, coat and nails within the first 1-2
weeks. He was on raw for a month or two before he stopped getting ticks.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "andrew_schoener"
<andrew_schoener@...> wrote:
> Are fast results common? Or am I just seeing things knowing he is raw
> fed.

Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: fast results?
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "andrew_schoener"
<andrew_schoener@...> wrote:

> Are fast results common? Or am I just seeing things knowing he is
raw
> fed.

That's funny. Mine has been on raw for only 9 days but I find my self
thinking the same thing. I see what I think is 'improvement' in
several areas already...

Is it all in our heads or is it real? I bet it's a little bit of both.

When I feed myself appropriately for a week straight, I feel better
and look better, so I don't think that's too short a time to see
results/changes in a dog either.

Good luck with yours,
Alex

Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: fast results?/new subject ticks
Posted by: "Lene Andersen" leneandersen@ntribs.com leneaa2004
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:42 pm ((PDT))

Melissa W wrote:

>>He was on raw for a month or two before he stopped getting ticks.<<

Reading your remark, made me realize that I haven't removed any ticks from
my dogs the last couple of month, which is about the same time they have
been fed a mostly raw diet. I'm wondering however what the correlation is
supposed to be, do you (or anyone else) know?

Regards Lene, NJ USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: Chicken Necks
Posted by: "Melissa" mwood8402@yahoo.com mwood8402
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:49 am ((PDT))

I gave a chicken neck to my 20 pounder once when I was first starting
out, but I took it away before he finished. It looked like a choking
accident waiting to happen. I haven't given him one since.

-Melissa W

Messages in this topic (21)
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5b. Re: Chicken Necks
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

Her dogs almost 8 and bene eating RAW it's whole life. Her dogs also in
excellent health and NEVER had a problem with the necks.

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC majorPTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>From: "katkellm" <katkellm@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Chicken Necks
>Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 18:01:22 -0000
>
>--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
> > The first person I ever knew to fed Raw owns a Saint Ber. And feeds
>a lot of
> > chicken necks...
>
>Hi Kaitlin,
>Good thing you joined this list because you can help her St. out by
>explaining to the St.'s owner that chicken necks are too small and too
>bony for all but the smallest of dogs. You can explain that they are
>a choking hazard and bombard an empty stomach with way too much bone
>to digest comfortably. If she feeds lots of chicken necks to a dog
>that size, her dog has been robbed of the mental, physical, and dental
>benefits that a raw diet should offer. You could explain to her that
>chicken quarters, halves or a whole bird would make her dog a much
>better meal. When i first started to research raw diets for dogs, i
>though chicken necks were great food because all the Barf style diet
>sites recommended them, so your friend just might be feeding veggies
>to a carnivore, too. Honestly, with all the food parts out there they
>just score a zero on everything except the fact they are food. KathyM
>

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Messages in this topic (21)
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6a. Re: black tarry poop/reply
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 12:09 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 8, 2007, at 5:05 AM, Caren OConnor wrote:

> Lynda -
> No, it's no bother I was just wondering what causes the color and
> consistency. Is it the blood in the organs or the iron?
> Caren O'Connor
> Nansemond Cavaliers

Yes. It's the iron in the blood which gives it the color. As well,
the iron in tissues, developed with use, gives them their bright red
color. This is quite observable in salmon and poultry, for instance.
Farmed salmon is fed red coloring to produce a color that would
develop naturally in open waters.

Since organs are blood-rich compared even to muscles, you get a lot
of pigment.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
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7a. What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethora of
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

I try to give my dog a piece of chicken or turkey every day or every
other day as it seems those are the only bones he can chow down. Is
that adequate for his bone intake?

He doesn't seem to be overly constipated but he stopped pooping
everyday, it's more like every other day. Is that healthy?

I've been having trouble finding organs so the only organs I give
are chicken hearts and livers. I also feed multiple protein sources
(fish, goat, duck, beef and chicken, soon to try rabbit!) and offer
cow hooves for treats. Is that enough variety?

Is it ok to feed goat and rabbit if they're not grass fed or
organic? I really have no idea where the meat comes from or what
standards they have, though it is all inspected.

I recently saw beef stomach at an ethnic food store... is that the
same as tripe? It doesn't seem like there would be many nutrients in
it. Is it worth feeding?

Other random items I saw:
cow tongue
duck tongue
chicken feet
chicken gizzards
pork intestine

Are any worth feeding?

I recently gave my dog a whole duck to consume. Previously I would
chop up everything beforehand but feeding whole was much more
convenient and gave him a better workout. He ate the ENTIRE thing,
head and beak included. When he pooped it was foamy and green. Is
that from the brain?! He also swallowed a leg whole - foot included,
which he had trouble passing. So, from now on I'll probably chop off
the head and limbs... or are there significant nutrients in there he
needs?

Lastly, just about EVERY time after my dog eats, his face seems to
be very itchy. He always rolls around in the grass and rubs his nose
and eyes in the ground. If he's indoors he'll wipe his face on the
furniture. He doesn't appear to have any allergies or dry skin. Has
anyone heard of such a thing?

Thanks for the tips. I'm loving this group!

Jess and Toby

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

> Is that adequate for his bone intake?

Depending on how small your dog is it sounds fine. 10% bone isn't
that much and if you can't find other sources of edible bone it isn't
a big deal.

> he stopped pooping everyday, it's more like every other day. Is
> that healthy?

Lots of dogs only go every other day or so, I wouldn't be worried.

> the only organs I give are chicken hearts and livers.

Heart isn't considered an organ in rawfeeding terms. Unless I order
from a buying group I have a hard time finding anything besides liver
and kidney in the organ department. Keep looking around and you
might find something.

> Is that enough variety?

Yes, the protein variety sounds pretty good. You could try pork too.

> Is it ok to feed goat and rabbit if they're not grass fed or
> organic?

Yes. Most of us don't have the funds to only buy grass fed,
unfortunately.

> I recently saw beef stomach at an ethnic food store... is that the
> same as tripe?

Nope, that has been sanitized for human consumption. Supermarkets
aren't allowed to sell the unprocessed green tripe.

> cow tongue - Yes!
> duck tongue - Yes!
> chicken feet - Good chew toys, but not a meal
> chicken gizzards - I don't buy these since I get them w/a whole bird
> pork intestine - No this is also processed beyond recognition

> He ate the ENTIRE thing, head and beak included. When he pooped it
> was foamy and green. Is that from the brain?!

(= No, it was probably because he at the whole thing in one sitting.
Too much food at once for his stomach to digest it all.

> from now on I'll probably chop off the head and limbs... or are
> there significant nutrients in there he needs?

IMO, the more whole the food is the better. If you must cut the feet
off you could freeze them for treats to be given later. I would
definitely leave the head on.

> He always rolls around in the grass and rubs his nose and eyes in
> the ground. If he's indoors he'll wipe his face on the furniture.
> He doesn't appear to have any allergies or dry skin. Has anyone
> heard of such a thing?

I doubt he's itchy, he's just cleaning up his face! Both of my dogs
use the rug as a "napkin" after eating unless I leave a towel down
for them. Watching them rub their faces after eating has become one
of my favorite things.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: What edible bones are there besides chicken bones? and a plethor
Posted by: "Lene Andersen" leneandersen@ntribs.com leneaa2004
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

Andrea wrote:

>>Unless I order from a buying group I have a hard time finding anything
besides liver
and kidney in the organ department. <<

What is a buying group?

Thanks - Lene NJ, USA

_,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: {Raw Feeding} An idea on how to get meat - brainstorming?
Posted by: "tillandsiausneoides" amwagner@botany.ufl.edu tillandsiausneoides
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...> wrote:
>
> I just come up with this idea, what if you made poster/flyers - like the
> ones that you see the people wanting to sell something and they have
their
> name and number down at the bottome of the page on littl cut outs!
Could
> you do something like that but say that you're looking for meat and that
> you'll come and pick it up?
>
> Something like at the groomers and vets offices?
>
> Good/Bad -----thoughts??
>

Hi Brandi,

I think it might be good to post the flyers at feed stores (ask for
culls) or hunting supply shops (ask for organs and other unwanted parts).

Ann

Messages in this topic (4)
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9. New to raw diet and need help on getting started...Thanks!!
Posted by: "fanhchan" fanhchan@yahoo.com fanhchan
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 1:13 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

I am a mom to a 1 year old Yorkie. She is currently on Canidae and I
would like to switch it to RAW diet.

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: New dog, feeding question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:04 pm ((PDT))

Not necessarily. The canine stomach is designed to stretch and hold many
pounds of food at one time, then take a rest to digest it all. There is no
evidence to suggest that feeding multiple small meals lessens the chance of
bloat or that large meals increase the chance of bloat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jaala" <vaughanjaala@aol.com>

Im confused? wont letting dogs "gorge" increase chances of bloat?

Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Re: New dog, feeding question
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

Then why is it that pretty much every professional will tell you to feed in
several smaller meals to prevent bloat?
And that dogs are more commonly dignoised with bloat with large meals then
small?

It's hard to do a study when dogs die from it and it's not a long term
thing. But from What I've read, heard and semiars I've been to... they get a
lot smaller ratio of dogs with bloat after a small meal then a large meal.

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

_________________________________________________________________
Send a smile, make someone laugh, have some fun! Check out
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11a. Re: Pregnant and off feed
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

Havent bred myself but my friend who breeds her bitch always go's off her food and she uses that as a sign that she is pregnant.

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 8 October, 2007 12:17:36 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Pregnant and off feed

We are in about the 3rd week of raw. I had introduced some pork ribs in
addition to the chicken. Suddenly 3 days ago, Bella my shih tzu bitch who
is 3 weeks pregnant, stopped eating. I just kept taking it away and
bringing it back. As far as I know she's eaten nothing except maybe cat poo
in 3 days. I'm getting worried now. In these circumstances should I
persist? I tried sprinkling her chicken with garlic (which she usually
loves) and she still wouldn't eat it. She's been sleeping a lot but that
started a couple of weeks ago and I put it down to the pregnancy. She only
weighs about 9lbs, so I am quite concerned at this point. Should I try
feeding her something else? If so, what? She is quite a prima donna, so
at first I wasn't concerned too much, but this is going on a bit.

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

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12. NEED MORE ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS FOR MOLLY
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone...

I posted to the group last Friday about my 1 year old wheaten terrier
Molly who was having her first episode of explosive diarrhea and
vomiting after being on raw for 2 weeks. It was suggested that I
might have introduced variety a bit too fast (a beef meal with a dab
of liver was fed Thursday morning) and that I should step back and
just stick with plain chicken and edible chicken bones.

Well, I skipped Molly's feeding on Friday to give her system a rest.
Her system had calmed down...bowels and stomach empty...and then I
gave her a very small meal on Saturday morning of chicken breast with
a bit of bone still attached. Sunday I fed her more of the same.
The chicken came from a whole organic chicken and had no enhancements
and I trimmed away much of the excess fat to avoid stressing her
system. Molly had her first bowel movement Sunday afternoon. It was
small and started firm and then changed to runny. Since then she has
continued to have liquid bowel movements. Also, I am finding nickel-
sized gelatinous stool droppings in my house. Her stool is so runny
and mucousy that she is "leaking". (Thank God I ripped up the carpet
this year and put down hard wood floors...lol.)

I'm trying to stay calm, but I am getting a bit worried. Any advice
for me??? Is it normal to have this kind of reaction to the raw food
now even after she has had no issues in the two weeks prior to this
episode? Anyone out there experience this with their new to raw
dog? How long can I expect this to go on before she adjusts? My 2
yr old wheaten Riley has been eating identical to Molly and his
system is handling it all perfectly...not a single loose stool.

Thanks, in advance, for your help.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: overweight PWD
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

Just bought a bag of dried up tripe strips for treats, totally natural and the dogs love them, they do smell still though

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 8 October, 2007 3:01:51 AM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Re: overweight PWD

>You might not want the stomachs, which is tripe, and SMELLS. But it too, is good
>for dogs

I agree! It is not amagical food item but i think,it is goodaddition to menu.

With curiousity of waht tripe really does to dog,I found an article about it on www.greentripe. com, and it was interesting.

If anybody still not reading about tripe articles on the site,you may find it interesting to read.

It said it would give,energy up and skin and coat improvement and,it has enzyme in it to help digest food waht dog eats with tripe,and not only that,tripe has acidphilus?? umm,,
the probiotic agent often found in Yogurt,so, tripe can work like probiotic too.

Probably not as effective as Slippery Elm or probiotic itself but,it said it has it.

The smell made me nausea but,it was worth. my dog likes it and feel great to know i giving her good stuff for body.

yassy

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14. FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi to the group...

I noticed several posts indicating some of you feed more than once a
day. I was wondering if it is OK to feed once a day in the morning
like I do or is there a compelling reason with this model of eating to
feed twice a day.

Thanks,

Nancy

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