Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 28, 2007

Sunday, October 28, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12215

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: tripe, now what?
From: Kevin & Nancy McCloskey
1b. Re: tripe, now what?
From: MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com
1c. Re: tripe, now what?
From: Yasuko herron
1d. Re: tripe, now what?
From: MARJORY
1e. Re: tripe, now what?
From: Renate
1f. Re: house cleaning product for dogs
From: Yasuko herron
1g. Re: house cleaning product for dogs
From: Karen Swanay

2a. Green tripe location
From: raffiangel2
2b. Re: Green tripe location
From: moemahood@aol.com
2c. Re: Green tripe location
From: Laurie Swanson
2d. Re: Green tripe location
From: susrob061174
2e. Re: Green tripe location
From: Yasuko herron

3a. Re: Scratching
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. Re: backward??
From: Casey Post
4b. Re: backward??
From: cleavlet

5a. Re: Turkey necks and legs
From: Casey Post
5b. Re: Turkey necks and legs
From: Laurie Swanson
5c. Re: Turkey necks and legs
From: Patty Linden

6a. Re: upset tummy
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: upset tummy
From: Yasuko herron
6c. Re: upset tummy
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: More reasons to go raw!
From: Shannon Parker

8. Bella, yet again.
From: Renate

9a. Re: feeding rabbit meat
From: Yasuko herron

10. How Long to Freeze Fresh Venison (first time)
From: helpshelteranimals

Messages
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1a. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "Kevin & Nancy McCloskey" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:04 pm ((PDT))

I have a silly question.

I keep reading how smelly the green tripe is. Do your dogs smell like it
when they are done feeding on it??? Just curious. My wheatens have long
beards that touch their food while they eat it and I wasn't sure how much
the smell would transfer. Didn't know if I'd have to be prepared for
"smelly dog" when I get around to trying it! LOL!

Thanks,

Nancy

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Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com" MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com mustbluvspaniels
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:51 pm ((PDT))

I had to spray my house with air freshener, and now my dogs need a breath
mint. But they had no hesitation when eating it. It was like something they
would make the people on Survivor eat. Lisa

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (10)
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1c. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:20 pm ((PDT))

>I had to spray my house with air freshener

I am wondering Air freshner is ok to use around dogs because dogs nose is more sensitive than ours andhouse cleaning chemical is no harm to them???

I do not use spray cleaning productsaround my dogs because i worry about it.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (10)
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1d. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "MARJORY" birdgirl@hvc.rr.com lovinalldogs
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

I feed green tripe three days a week. I crush a raw egg, shell and all, on top and the dogs just LOVE IT. Since I've increased feeding green tripe to 3 times a week, I see an amazing difference in their coats. I've been feeding raw for a while, thought my dogs looked great and now they look even better and I KNOW it is one of the best foods they can get. The remainder of their diet is chicken, pork, beef hearts and a rare treat of beef, if not too expensive. I haven't been able to find it whole, but am really satisfied with the Bravo.

I ease the discomfort of the odor by enjoying the scene of them diving in!

Marjory

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Messages in this topic (10)
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1e. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

Good for you, Yassy. I don't spray cleaning products around me cause I know
they will cause fainting spells, and my dogs are a lot smaller than me, so
no way. No chemicals, no cleaning products, and for sure, no febreeze and
no fabric softener.
Renate

On 10/28/07, Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> I do not use spray cleaning productsaround my dogs because i worry about
> it.
>
> yassy
>
>
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

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Messages in this topic (10)
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1f. Re: house cleaning product for dogs
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:27 pm ((PDT))

> I don't spray cleaning products around me cause I know they will cause fainting spells,

lol. Hi,Renate. Especially bath tub cleaning products are (although not spray but real fainting smell and I usually fan on and clean tub).. even fan on,I wonder if I am safe to be around... of course my dog goesdownstairs while i clean upstairs tub.

she knows where to go.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (10)
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1g. Re: house cleaning product for dogs
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:51 pm ((PDT))

I haven't followed this thread but kosher salt and 1/2 a lemon or
baking soda and lemon juice on a sponge will clean your tub
beatuifully with no fumes and no harsh chemicals. I clean everything
with lemon juice, white vinegar, baking soda, borax, lemons, and tea
tree oil. Safe for humans and critters alike. (Tea tree oil can be
toxic to cats...always rinse well.)
Karen

On 10/28/07, Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I don't spray cleaning products around me cause I know they will cause fainting spells,
>
> lol. Hi,Renate. Especially bath tub cleaning products are (although not spray but real fainting smell and I usually fan on and clean tub).. even fan on,I wonder if I am safe to be around... of course my dog goesdownstairs while i clean upstairs tub.
>
> she knows where to go.
>
> yassy
>
--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Green tripe location
Posted by: "raffiangel2" snazgal@aol.com raffiangel2
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:20 pm ((PDT))

Where are you ordering your green tripe from?
I'm getting some from BLue Ridge who delivers to me with his truck..but
its not in raw form...its rolled into one of those logs...
Is this ok or should I find a more 'raw' state of Tripe?
Web sites anyone?
Suggestions?

Thanks..
Phyllis in Delray Beach,Florida

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Green tripe location
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

I order from prey4pets.com? She has whole and ground tripe.? The whole has a few choices -- .5lbs, l or 5 lb bags.? I get the .5 lb bags so I do not need to process.

?Maureen

Thanks..
Phyllis in Delray Beach,Florida

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Green tripe location
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

I'm not familiar with this, but why do you say it isn't raw? Is it
cooked? Dehydrated? Just curious.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "raffiangel2" <snazgal@...> wrote:
>> its not in raw form...its rolled into one of those logs...
> Is this ok or should I find a more 'raw' state of Tripe?

Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: Green tripe location
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "raffiangel2" <snazgal@...> wrote:
>
> Where are you ordering your green tripe from?
> I'm getting some from BLue Ridge who delivers to me with his truck..but
> its not in raw form...its rolled into one of those logs...
> Is this ok or should I find a more 'raw' state of Tripe?

Hey Phyllis

The tripe from Blue Ridge Beef is in a RAW state, but just frozen and
grinded up. It not as messy and its much easier to handle and give to
the dogs.

Susanne, Courtney & The Danes

Messages in this topic (5)
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2e. Re: Green tripe location
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi.I get tripe from Hare-today in PA. They send tube thing that is filled with ground tripe with spleen.

I like to try tripe.com tripe someday (shipping fee to VA from CA is pricy ;57 dollars with about 10lb item in box,so,I cannot order yet.)

if you live in CA or west coast,tripe.com maybe good choice to order.

I have seen canned tripe,but is it any good,everybody?

Is it good to keep around for emergency use for dog?

If so,where do you get the canned tripe from?

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Scratching
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Rae,

You might double-check as to whether the chicken you're feeding could
be enhanced/injected w/flavoring or broth or saline solution.
Sometimes that causes the itchies. A diet high in chicken sometimes
does, too--although it is usually fine (and easy) to start with. Her
system is also taking in less toxins and will be able to eliminate
some of the stored toxins in her body, which can happen through the
skin. So, it could just be temporary. Of course, I'm sure there are
other reasons, too. Sometimes fish body/salmon oil seems to help
with skin issues. You can search the archives for more info on that
if you want.

The vomit sounds like bile, which often happens if the feeding
schedule/frequency changes. The tummy is expecting food and if it
doesn't come, the acids get sent up. Could that be it? Eventually
it's good to get them on a more random schedule (or lack of
schedule). It might also just be her system adjusting to the new
food.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: backward??
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:32 pm ((PDT))

he smells like chee-tos.
>
> Seems yeasty to me,

**Sounds like a good call - the smell is usually a giveaway...staph smells a
bit different.

>> but why yeasty on meat?

**Yeast is an opportunistic beggar. While it thrives on sugars and
starches, it can also bloom simply as a result of the body's immune system
being less than optimal and not able to balance it out as well as it should.

> I'm giving him fish oil capsules (no soy) and he's on
> soloxine .3 mg (is that right?) daily (1.5 2x day) per Dr. Dodds.
>
> He has heartworms too (it's been almost two years since diagnosis).

**Hypothyroid and heartworm + ... both stresses on the immune system.

> I thought th diet would help more???

**Diet is the foundation of health, yes. But it isn't a be-all, end-all to
wellness (unfortunately). Other factors play a role - genetics, stress,
environment, allergies, vaccines, etc.

**If this were my dog, I would have his thyroid rechecked to make sure that
his meds don't need to be adjusted and I'd talk to my vet about reevaluating
the heartworm situation to see if there's any new issues that need to be
addressed. Something is stressing this dog's body more than it used to
be...

**Good luck.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: backward??
Posted by: "cleavlet" cleavlet@yahoo.com cleavlet
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

Carol,

Hi. I'm intrigued by your situation. But, you're not getting much
response here (rawfeeding)!? If I might make a friendly suggestion:
try re-posting to one of the closely affiliated raw groups where
disease complication issues might be viewed as more on topic for
discussion. Here are two groups that would fit the bill:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaws/ (thyroid issues discussed...)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawchat/

Also, I'd like to see a little more background on Spencer:
- how old is he and what breed and/or size;
- how long now on a raw diet and what exactly he is fed;
- his feeding (and fasting?) schedule;
- his recent vaccination history;
- his heartworm treatment protocol;
- the soloxine is treating hyperthyroidism, yes?

Regards,

Cleavon

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Spencer was doing great with the raw diet, but he's taken a down
turn in terms of his skin/coat lately.
> I'm giving him fish oil capsules (no > soy) and he's on
> soloxine .3 mg (is that right?) daily (1.5 2x day) per Dr. Dodds.
>
> He has heartworms too (it's been almost two years since diagnosis).
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Turkey necks and legs
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

>My question is, is it wise for me to be feeding him a turkey neck? I have
>read in a number of places, including this list, that turkey necks can be
>dangerous.

**I am not comfortable feeding turkey necks to my (gulper) 90 lb Lab, but am
perfectly comfortable feeding them to my (careful chewer) 25 lb terrier
girl. Turkey necks are one of those things where you watch your dog's
eating style and decide whether or not you are comfortable with how it's
working for them. Since your boy is so little, I would guess that he's not
really capable of gulping a turkey neck, but you have eyes on him, so the
call has to be yours.

>The other question is--what about turkey legs. The bone looks quite large
>and hard. Is there a danger he could either damage his teeth on it, or
>perhaps choke?

**Dogs can choke on anything. Are turkey leg bones more choke-able than any
other food? No.

**As for tooth damage, no, I shouldn't think so. Your Pom may not be able
to consume the bone completely (many cats his size will be able to manage
the knuckle ends, but not the central shaft part), but the workout will
certainly help him build jaw strength, clean teeth, and have a great deal of
pleasure to boot. FWIW, bone in turkey thighs are a favorite of my little
terrier girl.

>>Sorry if these are silly questions--I just want to make sure.

**Not at all! How are you going to find out if you don't ask?

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Turkey necks and legs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi Patty,

I think the turkey necks could be ok for your dog. My dog is a bit
bigger--a 23# Boston--and I've fed him big turkey necks the last
couple days (I bought a package that had one big hunk of neck
weighing about 1.25#). If your dog is chomping them pretty well, and
they aren't really choking-size diameter, it sounds ok. But you're
the one there, seeing how your dog eats and how big these are. Maybe
some others with smaller dogs will chime in.

I have a turkey leg in the freezer to try--I haven't tried that
particular part yet. Some people are afraid of the long leg bone
splintering and remove it at some point. I'm going to give it a
try. It would still be good for your dog to rip the meat off of and
gnaw on part of the bone, even if you remove it at some point. I
doubt it could do any tooth damage, but again, hopefully the smaller
dog people will chime in.

Not silly questions. And I may be being overcautious... :-)

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Turkey necks and legs
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

Thank you, Casey, for your answer.

** Turkey necks are one of those things where you watch your dog's
eating style and decide whether or not you are comfortable with how it's
working for them. Since your boy is so little, I would guess that he's not
really capable of gulping a turkey neck, but you have eyes on him, so the
call has to be yours
My little guy is a slow and careful chewer, so I guess that answers that :-)

>The other question is--what about turkey legs. The bone looks quite large
>and hard. Is there a danger he could either damage his teeth on it, or
>perhaps choke?

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dutcher_katherine"
<katherinedutcher@...> wrote:
>
> Everything I read online has suggested a gradual transition. Until
> joinign this website. I also got lots of advice from raw feeders on
> the dogster forum to feed RMBs for tooth cleaning. Dont some people
> combine kibble and raw (at seperate meals)---

Yes some uninformed people do, but be honest with yourself. If a prey
model diet that dogs have eaten for millions of years is the best diet
for your dog, why would you want to dilute it by feeding kibble? If
you don't believe a prey model raw diet is not the best for your dogs,
why feed any of it?

It's like you want the best of both worlds. Kibble is a grain based
cereal. Why in the world would you want to feed cereal to a carnivore?

In this case, switching a diet from kibble to raw is best done cold
turkey for many reasons. Its easier on both you and the dog. It
helps his body learn to digest real food much faster.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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6b. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

I agree to kathy. I cannot force people how to feed their own dogs but I think rawfeeding is most healthiest feeding way.
<kibble>

*Do you know that how they make the kibble and what is in it?

*Do you know that all the vitamin and mineral etc is by sprayed vitamin mix over the finished kibble? Because kibblecompany wants to compensate for nutrient loss during high heat cooking process of 300F to 400F.And for somedogs,it isway too much vitamin,and forsome dogs,not too enough amount of vitamin and for some dogs,prob with synthetic vitamin(not vitamin from whole foods)and cause itching etc.

*Do you think that what is listed is all in the bag? Some ingredinents not printed sometimes..

*Do you think it is wholesome food when kibble(food) is treated with additive or preservative etc to extendthe shelf life?

Kibble is convenient because just scoop up from bagand feed anddog gets addicted but is it really good for them?

<home-made>

* Everything is cooked and most recipe is based on some kind of rice.And, I think average of receipe is going by 40% carb 30%fat,30% protin or something.
Majority of food they serve is lack of water-content (high water content meanseasy digestion for thedogs)and,many nutrient loss during cooking,and higher % of carb(turn to sugar in body) .And some recipe has salt is added or butter or vegetable oil etc,which I am not sure why give those to dogs..

* Some vegetable in recipe such as sweetpotato(probably popular item in home-made feeder) become more digestable after cooking,but dog does not have enzyme in saliva so unlike us,their digestion starts in stomach,and hard to digest carb that has less water-content in food. High water content food reduce the risk of calcium oxalate stone disease too.

* They tend to make 1week worth food and devide up,and feed same thing day in day out for that week. And they spend hours peeling skin of veg or cooking or pureeing.. I have heard somebody bought 80lb of sweet potato to cook and mash for dogs..They maybe believe that NRC numbers should be met daily and do calculation each meal they feed,and I see some people give what I think unnnecessarysupplement to dogs to make sure they get enough nutrient daily... But like human nutrient pyramid,it changes year by year and they don't know what is really needded for dogs/human. Trying to feed fooddaily that is met to NRC nutrient number sounds good,but if people were not sure about whatreally needed forsure,why stick to those numbers.. I feel that feeding rawfeeding that is high in water content with untouched nutrients in food from various animals would be more whole-some food than home-made. I cannot come up with goodpoint of home-made...maybe people feel better since they cook for
their dogs???

<rawfeeding>

* I think some dogs go through transition period by puking or diarrhea,and it is not fun stuff for owners,and owners need to observe thedogs and need to learn their own dogs behavior pattern (gulper or not gulper) or how the meal should be served for unwelcomed foods,andit require tiny study on their own dog.

*And owner need to overcome handling some yucky items like tripe or liver or tongue etc

* But I think reward is big. Food is having natural nutrients(not deteriorated by heat) and high water content,no preservative,no additive, no salt no butter,no oil...and dog gets to eat all kinds of thing if variety is given andwider food menu than home-made I think.And no carb.Nothing added to food..

*For dogs, fun to eat,food is healthier,and coat andappearence gets better and less farting:-PSmaller poo(meaning digest most of thefood you give)...

Overall,if I feedkibble,I have no control over the food itself and you really don't knowwaht is in there so,I would not back to kibble.

And, home-made, I am not believing that rice should be based of diet andall those added items like salt,or added supplement to food,I do not knowi f it really good for dogs.I think it is unnecessary to fill their meal with bunch of supplementAnd since nutrients gets less for cooking, I see no advantage cooking taking timefordogs if not being able to give as much nutrient as we can with raw state.

Since I belive the dog diet should be based on meat,andrawstatehas more nutrientsandthey can digest the raw better than cooked with nothing added to food,I decided to feed raw andI never regret the decision I made.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (13)
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6c. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:59 pm ((PDT))

katherine dutcher <katherinedutcher@...> wrote:
I am planning on transitiong my doggies to raw and am doing it
slowly. They currently eat wellness core and nature's variety
kibble. I have strated feeding RMBs three nights a week.
*****
You are far enough along now to get rid of the Wellness. The faster
you get your dogs off kibble the better. If you are feeding RMBs
three nights a week, you are feeding more RMBs per week than I
typically do, so IMO you are THERE. Jettison the kibble suspenders
and just rely on the raw belt. Your dogs do not need both. Not
ever, but certainly not at this point.

They get skinless bone in chicken breasts or thighs since I read
chicken is a nice bland RMB for beginniers.
*****
Chicken is fine. You're doing fine. Really. Chicken and RMB. All
you need add is organ and you got months before you reallyl have to
worry about that. In case you haven't noticed, you are feeding a raw
diet.

I know not to add any new protein sources for a while, but Im not
really sure how long to wait.
*****
1. Ditch the kibble. 2. Fed the chicken, feed whatever you are using
for meaty bones (my guess is they're mostly bone and not much mea and
pretty small, but hey, we can do the tweaking later). 3. When your
dogs are eating happily and are not generating unexpected stools and
are generally doing what you'd call thriving, add pieces of a new
protein to the chicken meals.

Feed increasing amounts of new meat until you have a sense of where
your dogs are going with it, then feed the new protein. If stools
get messier than you'd prefer to see, back off, retreat to the
chicken for awhile. If your particular dance is two steps forward
one step back, that's okay.

They also have a little dirrarhea which i know is normal when you are
starting a new food.
*****
Loose stools. Diarrhea is when they can't hold it and it comes out
all watery and goes everywhere.

Loose stools OTOH may be a result of too much food, too much fat, too
much new. Frankly, as long as you are muddying the waters with that
kibble stuff, you don't really know how your dogs are doing. Get rid
of the kibble. Initially the kibble may have helped YOU get along;
now it is counterproductive.

Im wondering how long it will take to go away.
*****
Again. Until you stop feeding the artifice in the kibble, you cannot
know how your dogs are responding to raw food. All kibble, even
Wellness and NV, have stool stabilizers in them--vast amounts of
plant fiber.

It will go away when you have simplifed their diet and you have fed
an appropriate amount of food (whatever that amount is) and they are
eating and digesting well.

do I need to do a raw dinner every night?
*****
Well, you can skip nights but not so you can feed kibble instead. By
and large, yes, at this stage you should be feeding raw every day.

Look: you are there except in your mind. Your dogs are eating raw
meat. They're eating raw meaty bones. Is that not raw? How much
more raw do you want raw to be? This is less an issue of your dogs'
readiness and more an issue of yours. Your dogs are ready.

Now it's your turn.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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7a. Re: More reasons to go raw!
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi Marlena,

No worries. I sometimes get emotional as well, when I see these sites. The thing is, I am on an animal ethics committee for a large canadian university, and have had the chance to learn alot about animals used in research (and this applies to private, and public institutions). Some of the studies that the article vaguely describes would never be allowed to pass, and on top of that, they are not giving any of the facts about how the studies that may be feesible are actually done. There are STRICT guidelines in place for animal research, and though I wish it didn't have to be done, I realize that it is being done as humanely as possible. I guess bottom line is that if more people were educated to proper feeding, they would ditch the kibble and stick to raw. I try to pass on that message more than anything.

Don't worry about coming off as controversial, I could tell from your post, you were just trying to show another positive about rawfeeding. I just find some of the animal rights groups ridiculous, and ask that people, like you said "take it with a grain of salt".

Cheers!

Shannon

marlena_adema <marlena_adema@yahoo.ca> wrote:

Regardless, it wasn't my intention to use this site to get
controversial. I'm new and am learning my way. Thanks for the
feedback.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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8. Bella, yet again.
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

We are now about 2 weeks later, and Bella, my pregnant bitch (due around 11
Nov) still is very resistant to eating the foods she loved when we started
on raw - no chicken, no pork, she is thrilled to bits to eat beef kidney,
but that is about all for major joy-dance reactions. I can hand-feed her a
bit of lamb or beef (but very limited success in this), and entice her to
eat a bone now and again. She'll also eat a bit of chicken liver. And is
usually willing to eat beef heart. I gave my other dogs some pork shanks
and they brought the bones in and she stole one of those tonight and chewed
on that quite happily for an hour. My vet is on my back to feed 'balanced
meals' - science diet is her prescription. and Bella's poop is definitely
reflecting her diet. I'm feeding her 3 times a day now unless I just cannot
make it home. Should I panic? There doesn't seem to be any problem with
her or growth. She does sleep alot, but who wouldn't in her state? I had
to be away all day today and came back to some very black, nasty wet
poopies, not unexpected by any means, considering her resistance to eating
any bone at all, but I guess, being new, I am yet again being pressured by
all these experts (vets) saying I'm not doing the best thing for Bella.
Should I try to get her to eat some egg shells - or am I just crazy-making?
TIA

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

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Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: feeding rabbit meat
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:51 pm ((PDT))

>just started feeding my 2 dogs ground up rabbit meat,,,,they LOVE it....

Hi,Lynn.Good for you! My dog ate rabbit with disgusting face a couple of times anddecided to go on strike for next round and,since I got more variety and,rabbit was not must protin source so, I afterall pulled it from menu..

But may I ask why do you ground? You can feed without grinding.
Or are you feeding groundrabbit thathasorgan and bone andeverything and it is pre-grounded by supplier??

If so, you do not know theratio of bone and organ and meat and,no control over thecontents and dog needs to gnawing ripping pulling etc and not something you like to feed them.

If you got it from supplier the ground up rabbit,then,try getting whole rabbit,fur on or without etc. Hare today in PA has wide selection for rabbit.

Talking of rabbit,one night (I think it was thisweek),I was flipping channel to watch tv and saw ceaser working with animal control officer and the stray dogs that ended up in somebody's garage (there were 2 of them) were surviving to live by hunting rabbit!! I saw carcas laied on garage floor with just back bone and some parts left.

Ceasar was saying"These dog were hunting rabbits!"

So,I thought that it made more sense to me feeding raw meat to dogs.

yassy

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10. How Long to Freeze Fresh Venison (first time)
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:01 pm ((PDT))

Just got fresh venison from the a processing place (got a heart in it
too!!!) for free. I think I got the top parts of the legs (not much
meat but it will be nice for my cats to tear off. I freeze it for 3
to 4 weeks right?

Thanks, sure appreciate it!

Have a good one!

AG & Ruffian (going to have his first ever taste of deer!)

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12214

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. tripe, now what?
From: MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com
1b. Re: tripe, now what?
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: tripe, now what?
From: moemahood@aol.com

2a. Re: menu planning?
From: mousegirls
2b. Re: menu planning?
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Whole turkeys
From: kjdaughtridge
3b. Re: Whole turkeys
From: Denise Strother
3c. Re: Whole turkeys
From: katkellm

4a. Re: Supplement?
From: Shirley

5a. Re: Scratching
From: Shirley

6a. New at this... Need advice...
From: barkingcantaloupe
6b. Re: New at this... Need advice...
From: Anntiga@aol.com
6c. Re: New at this... Need advice...
From: Sandee Lee
6d. Re: New at this... Need advice...
From: katkellm

7a. upset tummy
From: katherine dutcher
7b. Re: upset tummy
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: upset tummy
From: katkellm
7d. Re: upset tummy
From: dutcher_katherine
7e. Re: upset tummy
From: katkellm

8a. Prey Model and some other questions
From: Caitlin
8b. Re: Prey Model and some other questions
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: Prey Model and some other questions
From: katkellm

9. Turkey necks and legs
From: Patty Linden

10a. Re: More reasons to go raw!
From: marlena_adema

11. backward??
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

Messages
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1a. tripe, now what?
Posted by: "MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com" MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com mustbluvspaniels
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:42 am ((PDT))

I bought some green tripe yesterday, made by Bravo. This is the 1st time I
have found some. It looks and smells disgusting. So should I consider this a
treat, of something I can feed a little bit everyday with their meal? Do I
feed it instead of a meal? Lisa

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:43 am ((PDT))

MustBLuvSpaniels@... wrote:
>
> I bought some green tripe yesterday, made by Bravo. This is the 1st
time I
> have found some. It looks and smells disgusting.
*****
Thanks goodness you're not doing the eating!

So should I consider this a
> treat, of something I can feed a little bit everyday with their
meal? Do I
> feed it instead of a meal?
*****
All of that. It can function as a whole meal, it can be a side dish
if you want it that way, it can be a morsel treat if you'd prefer.
What you can afford and the extent to which your dog likes it fully
determine how much green tripe you feed and how you feed it.

Yesterday I gave my dogs several pounds (each) of partly thawed green
tripe wad, courtesy Merril and one very big dead cow (blessings on
you Merril!) along with a chicken quarter. That was yesterday's and
today's meal.

When I have it around, I feed it. When I feed it I typically feed it
in generous servings.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: tripe, now what?
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

Lisa, I feed green tripe all the time.? My dogs love it and my supplier will cut it into .5lb baggies for me so its real easy to feed.? Mine just went through about 20lbs of it and I've ordered some more.?

Is it whole or ground?? I like the whole better because it gives them great chewing time.?

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: menu planning?
Posted by: "mousegirls" mousegirls@gmail.com ladysown
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

Hi Nicole

Welcome
yes, dogs can be fed mice. For a rottweiler you are going to need a lot
of them. :) One adult mouse weighs on average 2 oz. Dogs are
generally fed at 2% ideal bodyweight. So that's 8 mice for a pound.
My guess for a rotty you're looking at about 1.5 pounds of food each day
possibly up to 2 so that 12-16 mice. Now...if you have a big colony of
mice that is eminently doable. That's about 2-3 litters of mice.

Not sure what the resale value of mice are...I find that raising them
and then selling the babies at 6 weeks I get 75 cents a piece for them.
I can buy more meat than I can raise just on mice. In fact between my
mice and freecycle I don't have to use our hard earned money for our
meat anymore. :)

They can eat rats to. Some dogs won't eat the tails. That's normal.
Just toss 'em. A good rat will run at 1-2 pounds or so. Makes the
feeding easier.

To start out, what most people do is pick one meat source and just feed
that for at least 2 weeks before introducing a different meat source.
then every two weeks or so add another. in a couple of months add some
liver, but do so slowly.

annette
http://ladysown.blogspot.com/
http://agilitynut.wordpress.com/

"What a man is alone on his knees before God, that he is, and no more".-Robert Murray M'Cheyne
"I believe that prayer is the measure of the man, spiritually, in a way that nothing else is, so that how we pray is as important a question as we can ever face"- J.I. Packer

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: menu planning?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi Nicole,

For the first week or two, just buy a few chickens, cut into quarters and
hand to dog. Easy, huh??

Once he has adjusted to digesting chicken well, you can slowly begin adding
in variety, more meat and some organs. By then you should be able to see
just how much he requires per meal or per day

Sandee & the Dane Gang

My first question is can anyone supply me with their actual weekly
meals for their dog? I can find lots on what types of things to feed
- but i am kind of wanting a plan to follow for the first week or two
to kick me off. Any suggestions would be great.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Whole turkeys
Posted by: "kjdaughtridge" kjdaughtridge@yahoo.com kjdaughtridge
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:28 am ((PDT))

I got a good deal on turkeys so I decided to feed the whole bird,
intact, over the course of several days. Previously, I've always fed
pieces that were "meal-sized," so I am exited to give them
a "bigger" experience. (At this moment, they are out in the yard
with their birds, doing a lot of licking and pulling at skin--they
know they want it, but can't quite figure out how to eat it--but
that's not my question.)

I got the biggest birds I could find, since there was a limit of two
per purchase. So my question is, How long can I keep hauling these
things out to feed before they are even too ripe for the dogs. For
example, my greyhound is about 90 pounds and needs about 3lbs/day to
maintain his optimal weight. His bird is about 24 pounds so it could
take him 8 days to finish it. My other dog is a 65 lb GSD mix, who
needs about 1.5 lbs/day. With a 20-ish pound turkey, that should
last him a couple of weeks.

Also, any hints on how to gauge when they've had enough for a meal?
These are both dogs that would keep eating until they exploded so I
can't count on them to let me know when they're full.

Thanks! --Kathleen D

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Whole turkeys
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:58 am ((PDT))

Kathleen,
It depends on several things. The weather, how long they stay in the
yard, your nose and the dogs nose. I feed stuff to my dogs (right now
a Pitbull and 2 Chihuahuas) as long as they will eat it and I can
stand it. As to the regulating how much they are eating: I have two
self regulaters and a glutton. I thought the glutton would eat til she
popped. Turns out that she eats until she is just this side exploding.
I mean she looks like she is gonna whelp a litter of 10 puppies at any
moment kinda full. Mind you this is a 5lb Chihuahua. I don't weigh my
dogs food, but one day I'm gonna get a bathroom scale and weigh her
before one of her Roman Bachanalian Eat Fests and after, just to see
the weight difference. Anyway, the next day she just lays around and
sleeps a lot and I don't feed her. Amazingly enough, she will if you
let her. If she still resembles a slightly deflated beachball with
legs the next day, I might give her a snack size meal and leave it at
that. Then feed again the next day when she looks like her normal
svelte self. The other two eat what they want everyday. I've seen some
dogs start to self-regulate on their own after a few gorge type
feedings. Not Sweetie though, if you put it in front of her, she will
try to eat it. Strangely enough, this is a dog that I've had since she
was a couple of months old (she's 9 now) and she has never done
without, the self-regulators are a dog that was rescued off of the
streets starving and a dog that was dropped in the night box at a
nearby shelter. Sweetie doesn't eat this way every day, but, pretty
often as I'm lazy and don't have the desire or time to portion out
pork shoulder roasts and such. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kjdaughtridge" <kjdaughtridge@...>
wrote:
How long can I keep hauling these things out to feed before they are
even too ripe for the dogs.... Also, any hints on how to gauge when
they've had enough for a meal? These are both dogs that would keep
eating until they exploded so I can't count on them to let me know
when they're full.
Thanks! --Kathleen D

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Whole turkeys
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kjdaughtridge" <kjdaughtridge@...>
wrote:
> Also, any hints on how to gauge when they've had enough for a meal?
> These are both dogs that would keep eating until they exploded so I
> can't count on them to let me know when they're full.

Hi Kathleen,
My dogs first big meal was turkey, also, last year at Thanksgiving.
You can always count on your dogs to let you know when they are full;
its just that your definition of full is probably going to be a whole
lot different than theirs. When your dogs quit eating, they are full.
If you take the food away while they are still eating and you gauge
that they should be full, well, they are not full. Different
definitions of full is all. If you have been raw feeding for awhile, i
would like to offer up the idea that you let them tell you when they
are full and let them eat till they stop eating. If your dogs are new
to raw, i think you should still regulate how much they eat. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Supplement?
Posted by: "Shirley" ssthunderpony@yahoo.com ssthunderpony
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:58 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> If my dog rarely gets fish in his diet, is it appropriate to
> supplement with fish oil capsules? And if so, what is the best to
buy?
>
> Thanks,
> Tracy

######## Tracy, If you cannot get the correct fish , not just ANY
fish , that will supply
Omega 3's you can feed fish body oil in caps.

they are very reasonable and found easily at any vitamin counter (
walmart for one , is good for cold water salmon oil caps).

Most meat we feed is fed on grains in a feedlot and are almost
devoid of O 3's.
If you are lucky enough to feed grass fed meat you already have O
3's in the meat.

O 3 oil as a bottled liquid is expensive and you run the risk of it
becoming rancid once opened to the air and it begins to
oxidize ,unless it has preservatives
in
it but then you would not want to feed it anyway.

It is simple to feed oil caps.
to start ............ just prick it with a sharp knife or
snip the end carefully just enough so some oozes out and your dog can
taste it. Before long you can just toss the cap to the dog right out
of the bottle.

My GSDs love them as a treat just as the chicken feet
they get every evening. Geeze, even when I open my own vitamin bottle
they hear it and come running thinking it is something for
them .....lol

Cheers,
Shirley and the Kitchen Wolves

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Scratching
Posted by: "Shirley" ssthunderpony@yahoo.com ssthunderpony
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:24 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "raeminpin24" <raeminpin24@...>
wrote:
> not read the last question I have 3 dogs that this friday I
started on
> raw and now I noticed last night that my german pinscher is
scraching a
> lot, could this be the weather as she came from New Jersey to Pa or
is

######## Hi Rae, it can take several weeks or months with some dogs
to get their digestive system running full speed coming out of the
pathetic state it was in digesting kibble.

My silly Kitchen Wolves seem to like grass sometimes so I just let
them do what they want.

The scratching is allergies to 'something' either indoor or outdoor
environment , vaccines, drugs , worming poisons, anti flea/tick
nerve agents or diet.

Dogs are not allergic to raw meat ! ! !

Remember that allergies and other chronic diseases do not 'suddenly'
appear , they have been long at work before you finally see them
surface in many different ways.

HTH,
Shirley & the Kitchen Wolves

Messages in this topic (9)
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6a. New at this... Need advice...
Posted by: "barkingcantaloupe" CTbarbuto@comcast.net barkingcantaloupe
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:22 am ((PDT))

I am trying my best to read archives and other Internet sources, but
there is a lot of info out there to absorb, so I apologize in advance
if this has been asked/answered before. I transitioned my small Bichon-
mix off of kibble and onto Oma's Pride pre-made mixes over the last few
weeks. Everything seems fine. Under direction of a friend, I gave my
dog a breakfast of chicken necks this morning. I also have a marrow
bone defrosting in my fridge.

My questions are:
1) Is it safe to give my dog chicken necks?
2) It seems the majority of people on this discussion group are against
marrow bones. What the heck do I give him if not marrow bones for
recreation?
3) It also seems that RMB is more M than B. Is this the case?
4) I saw a website with horror stories about raw bones getting stuck in
the dog's esphagus, mouth, etc. How is this prevented?
5) I am a vegetarian and have never prepared more than a chicken breast
and a steak for my husband. I have no idea what a "chicken back" is or
how to buy these types of things. How do I know what RMB to give my
dog?

I am far more confused than I was a week ago, due to all of the
different opinions in my area and on the Internet. HELP!

Thank you for your time,
Claudia

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: New at this... Need advice...
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

Hi!

I have a 54 pound Portuguese Water Dog but what I will say will work for
your dog too.

1) Is it safe to give my dog chicken necks?
I would feed big chunks of raw meat and raw chicken breasts (cut the breast
into fourths), bone included, instead of chicken necks. Chicken necks don't
have a great deal of meat on them. I would never feed a dog my size chicken
necks because he could choke on them.

2) It seems the majority of people on this discussion group are against
marrow bones. What the heck do I give him if not marrow bones for
recreation?
Marrow bones can break teeth very easily. They are called "wreck Bones" on
this list. You can give your dog a marrow bone if you know the dog will not
try to chew it, and you watch your dog all the time. I do give my guy a
marrow bone each night. He gets the marrow out and is very happy. The second I
hear that he might be trying to eat the bone he gets the bone taken away. He
eats the marrow bone about five feet from me, I monitor him the entire time
he has the bone, and after he is done I throw it out.

3) It also seems that RMB is more M than B. Is this the case?
Yes, 80% raw meat, 10% organ meats and 10% raw bone. You can include a few
raw eggs in the raw meat percentage. If your dog wants to eat the shell that
is fine. My dog breaks the shell, eats the yoke and white part, then leaves
the shells to munch on throughout the day. This makes a mess so he just
gets the egg without the shell.

4) I saw a website with horror stories about raw bones getting stuck in
the dog's esophagus, mouth, etc. How is this prevented?
There are many horror sites that will try to scare you away from raw
feeding. Dogs choke on kibble and ground food also. My first dog was very ill when
I started feeding him raw. He thrived. My 19 month old has been on prey
model raw since 12 weeks old. Neither dog ever choked on a bone. Ask the list
an additional question about the specific bones to feed and the size for
your dog.

5) I am a vegetarian and have never prepared more than a chicken breast
and a steak for my husband. I have no idea what a "chicken back" is or
how to buy these types of things. How do I know what RMB to give my
dog?
The back is between the two breasts. The back and the neck are very bony.
I get whole chicken breasts, skin on, bone in. Cut the breasts in fourths or
ask the butcher to do so. If you are feeding the back, feed as part of
the breast and not as a separate piece.

For what kind of meats to get check out the following website:
_http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes_ (http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes)

Click on any of the "recipes." You will see a picture of what the meat
looks like and how it should be fed.

Neither of my dogs were ever weaned to raw feeding. Both were switched cold
turkey (no pun intended) and they both did great. My first dog, as I said,
was very ill, and had Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Switching with no
transition did not cause him any problems.

Good luck. Keep asking questions. Feeding your dog prey model raw is the
best thing you can do for him.

Ann
Norman (19 month old PWD) and Angel Scamp
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: New at this... Need advice...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:53 pm ((PDT))

Claudia,

Once you begin feeding some nice whole meaty parts to your dog, you will
probably find he won't need recreational bones at all. Ground up mixes and
an occasional chicken neck are not going to be very satisfying or provide
much in the way of exercise or enjoyment. Food should provide more than
nutrition.

Chicken necks are too small for most dogs...in any case, they are far too
bony, especially when offered with a premade mix which is already high in
bone content and lacking meat and fat. If anything, you would want to add
nice large, consuming chunks of meat. Overall you'd do better by just
dumping the Oma's and start feeding your guy "real" food! :) So for now,
go buy a whole chicken, cut into serving sized portions and hand to dog. As
he adjusts to digesting the chicken, you will slowly begin adding in
variety, lots of nice red meat and some organs.

Ignore the horror stories......if even a fraction of them were true, I doubt
there would be 9929 members of this list and countless numbers of dogs
successfully being fed raw. Stick around here where you will hear facts,
read through rawfed.com and the myths section. That will help in allaying
your fears! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "barkingcantaloupe" <CTbarbuto@comcast.net>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: New at this... Need advice...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barkingcantaloupe" <CTbarbuto@...>
wrote:

Hi Claudia and welcome,
> 1) Is it safe to give my dog chicken necks?

Chicken necks are too small to feed to all but the tiniest of dogs.
Since you didn't mention what size dogs you are feeding, i wouldn't
say don't feed them because of their size, but because they are too
bony to be really useful.

> 2) It seems the majority of people on this discussion group are against
> marrow bones. What the heck do I give him if not marrow bones for
> recreation?

I don't own a kong, but lots of people stuff them with frozen ground
beef for your dog's entertainment. Since most marrow bones that you
see sold in grocery stores are stripped naked of all meat, they are
inadvisable to feed because of tooth wear and breakage. Some people,
however, are able to feed leg bones with meat still covering the bones
and then toss the bone when it becomes a bare naked bone. If you are
worried about your dogs because they like to chew stuff, i think
you'll find that a lot of that energy will be drained by eating their
raw food.

> 3) It also seems that RMB is more M than B. Is this the case?

Absolutely, positively, 100% it is the case. A typical prey animal
that a wolf would eat, on average, is 80% meat. That's a lot of meat
compared to 10% bone. The other 10% would be the organs. While those
are just numbers, they are useful to help feed your dog
proportionately balanced meals over time.

> 4) I saw a website with horror stories about raw bones getting stuck in
> the dog's esphagus, mouth, etc. How is this prevented?

I would guess that is precisely what they are-stories-fiction-not
fact. Of course a dog can choke on anything, kibble, a tennis ball, a
sock..so i would never say never, but if it were a frequent occurrence
the wolf, whom our dogs are a direct descendant of, would be extinct.
What could be safer than feeding a species appropriate diet to the
species.

> 5) I am a vegetarian and have never prepared more than a chicken breast
> and a steak for my husband. I have no idea what a "chicken back" is or
> how to buy these types of things. How do I know what RMB to give my
> dog?

Here is a link to a list that Cris O posted from a while ago. I used
this list the first few times i went shopping. I saved it to help
others and just recently found it hidden away in my folder.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/113215

HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. upset tummy
Posted by: "katherine dutcher" katherinedutcher@hotmail.com dutcher_katherine
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:19 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!

Hi, Im sorry if this topic has been addressed before but there is just so much information on the group page. I am planning on transitiong my doggies to raw and am doing it slowly. They currently eat wellness core and nature's variety kibble. I have strated feeding RMBs three nights a week. They get skinless bone in chicken breasts or thighs since I read chicken is a nice bland RMB for beginniers. I know not to add any new protein sources for a while, but Im not really sure how long to wait. They also have a little dirrarhea which i know is normal when you are starting a new food. Im wondering how long it will take to go away. Especially since Im now feeding RMBs only three nights a week friday saturday and wednesday Im wondering if these days are spaced to far apart for them to adjust to the raw. do I need to do a raw dinner every night? Id rather start a few days a week first and then transition to every night and then to every meal. Thanks
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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:36 pm ((PDT))

Before even thinking about adding in other sources of protein, you need to
dump the kibble and begin feeding totally raw. You are not doing your dogs
any favors by continuing kibble and you aren't going to know how well they
are digesting the chicken and when to move on until you rid their system of
all those carbohydrates.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "katherine dutcher" <katherinedutcher@hotmail.com>

Hi, Im sorry if this topic has been addressed before but there is just so
much information on the group page. I am planning on transitiong my doggies
to raw and am doing it slowly. They currently eat wellness core and
nature's variety kibble. I have strated feeding RMBs three nights a week.
They get skinless bone in chicken breasts or thighs since I read chicken is
a nice bland RMB for beginniers. I know not to add any new protein sources
for a while, but Im not really sure how long to wait. They also have a
little dirrarhea which i know is normal when you are starting a new food.
Im wondering how long it will take to go away. Especially since Im now
feeding RMBs only three nights a week friday saturday and wednesday Im
wondering if these days are spaced to far apart for them to adjust to the
raw. do I need to do a raw dinner every night? Id rather start a few days
a week first and then transition to every night and then to every meal.
Thanks

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, katherine dutcher
<katherinedutcher@...> wrote:
>Id rather start a few days a week first and then transition to every
night and then to every meal.

Hi,
I know that you think that you are doing the right thing for both you
and your dog by preceding at this pace, but, even though it sounds
safer to you or more logical, you are actually making the transition
harder for yourself and your dog. It is best to just jump right in,
take that leap of faith, ditch the kibble completely, and just feed
the chicken. KathyM

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

7d. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "dutcher_katherine" katherinedutcher@hotmail.com dutcher_katherine
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

Everything I read online has suggested a gradual transition. Until
joinign this website. I also got lots of advice from raw feeders on
the dogster forum to feed RMBs for tooth cleaning. Dont some people
combine kibble and raw (at seperate meals)---
In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, katherine dutcher
> <katherinedutcher@> wrote:
> >Id rather start a few days a week first and then transition to every
> night and then to every meal.
>
> Hi,
> I know that you think that you are doing the right thing for both you
> and your dog by preceding at this pace, but, even though it sounds
> safer to you or more logical, you are actually making the transition
> harder for yourself and your dog. It is best to just jump right in,
> take that leap of faith, ditch the kibble completely, and just feed
> the chicken. KathyM
>

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

7e. Re: upset tummy
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dutcher_katherine"
<katherinedutcher@...> wrote:
> Dont some people
> combine kibble and raw (at seperate meals)---

Hi,
Yes, some people do combine them. Some people feed just kibble. Some
people cook meat for their dogs and make homemade dog food. Some
people feed pre made raw patties. I guess what i think is that just
because some people do it doesn't mean that it is right or that it is
what is best for a dog. I think the question would better be asked,
"What would be the advantage of combining kibble and raw?" If you
asked me that i could say with all sincerity, nothing. Just because it
can be done that way doesn't mean it should be done that way. The
best way to feed a species is with the diet the species was designed
to eat. Mixing the two only detracts from the diet and adds nothing.
I don't mean to sound "soap boxy," and i apologize if i do. Its
just that you are sooo close to making the best choice for your dog by
feeding an all raw diet. KathyM

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Prey Model and some other questions
Posted by: "Caitlin" caitlin@baileyridgedogs.com fancyfacepoms
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:01 pm ((PDT))

I'm still fairly new at this but I am LOVING being a part of this list!

I've been feeding my two Poms the premades from Northwest Naturals,
Nature's Variety, and Oma's... but I've been seeing a lot of posts
pertaining to feeding in a prey model way. Can you guys describe that a
little further or provide me with some links? Is prey model feeding the
"standard" 80% meat 10% bone 10% organ ratio, or is there much more
involved?

Also, if there's any other links you guys could point me in the
direction of, that would be WONDERFUL. I'm assuming I can find a bunch
in the files on yahoogroups?

Another thing...

Lindsay, my 6 year old Pom is quite the gulper. I either have to hold
onto what she eats to make sure she chews, or cut everything up pretty
fine (hence why at the moment we're doing the ground premix). I gave her
some chicken gizzards a while back and she nearly choked on it which was
a very frightening situation for me... so I'm a little gun-shy with her.
My boy, Kyler, is kind of what I would consider the "dream" raw dog.. he
knows when to stop eating, he chews, he minds his own business... while
Lindsay is the nightmare! Eats super fast, doesn't chew, very food
aggressive (we're working on that...) and as soon as she finishes she
tries her hardest to steal Kyler's through the crate. Anything you could
suggest with either the food aggression or the gulping? Like I said,
I've tried holding her food (she HATES that and usually tries to get my
fingers) and feeding her things that are partially thawed so she has to
chew... but when it's only partially thawed she won't even touch it. I
want to get her off of ground meats, but there are times when I'm
working and my parents feed the dogs for me, and I don't want her
choking on something when they're the only ones here with the dogs and
have no idea what to do.

Thanks in advance,

Caitlin
BaileyRidge Poms

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Prey Model and some other questions
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:54 pm ((PDT))

Caitlin,

Prey model is just as it sounds...feeding according to the natural prey of a
carnivore. The majority of their diet consists of large ungulates which are
approximately 80% meat, 10% edible bone and 10% organs. It's just that
simple! :)

In contrast ground up mixtures generally contain too much bone, not enough
meat or fat, various ingredients which are of no benefit (fruits, veggies
and supplements) and provide no exercise, tooth cleaning or lasting
satisfaction as they are gulped in a few seconds.

To slow down a gulper, you want to feed large portions of food....chicken
quarters, various roasts, racks of ribs, etc.
When feeding ground, there is nothing to chew...and as you can see, holding
the food is counterproductive. She's trying to get that food as quickly as
possible for fear you are going to take it away from her.

Read through rawfed.com and the rawfeeding myths.
http://rawfed.com/myths/preymodel.html - description of prey model
http://rawfed.com/myths/ground.html - ground vs. whole foods
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://rawfed.com/
http://www.RawFedDogs.net/ - check out the Recipe section

And here are some cute pictures of small dogs and puppies eating nice large
meals! :))
http://homepage.mac.com/rhbmgmt/PhotoAlbum14.html
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=7040435&uid=171870&members=1
http://i5.tinypic.com/14ybct1.jpg
http://rawfed.com/myths/toybreeds.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Caitlin" <caitlin@baileyridgedogs.com>
>
> I've been feeding my two Poms the premades from Northwest Naturals,
> Nature's Variety, and Oma's... but I've been seeing a lot of posts
> pertaining to feeding in a prey model way. Can you guys describe that a
> little further or provide me with some links? Is prey model feeding the
> "standard" 80% meat 10% bone 10% organ ratio, or is there much more
> involved?
>
> Also, if there's any other links you guys could point me in the
> direction of, that would be WONDERFUL. I'm assuming I can find a bunch
> in the files on yahoogroups?
>
> Another thing...
>
> Lindsay, my 6 year old Pom is quite the gulper. I either have to hold
> onto what she eats to make sure she chews, or cut everything up pretty
> fine (hence why at the moment we're doing the ground premix).

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Prey Model and some other questions
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caitlin <caitlin@...> wrote:
Is prey model feeding the
> "standard" 80% meat 10% bone 10% organ ratio, or is there much more
> involved?

Hi Caitlin,
Yep, its that easy. I could take it down a notch and say to feed a
variety of parts from a variety of critters and over time, all will be
well. The diet only seems harder initially because our dogs are use
to eating inappropriate food, kibble, and we are use to thinking in
inappropriate ways in regard to feeding. After the transition is
made, digestive for the dog and concepts for his person, its very simple.

> Lindsay, my 6 year old Pom is quite the gulper. I either have to hold
> onto what she eats to make sure she chews, or cut everything up pretty
> fine......

The solution is to feed bigger pieces. Feed Lindsay pieces that are
bigger than the size of her head. There is no way she can gulp it
down then. Actually, holding on to food for a dog makes them worse
because they feel like they need to grab the whole thing and get it
away from you. Small pieces rob a dog of the dental benefits that
come with a raw diet. I think that if you feed bigger pieces and
relax and don't crowd over Lindsay when she eats she'll do just fine.
After a few meals, i think you will be comfortable enough with the
situation to leave the dogs with your parents at feeding time. I'm
happy you are so happy to be here. Its way nice to meet you, KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9. Turkey necks and legs
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
I am so impressed with the knowledge in this list -- am new to raw feeding, and have a couple of questions about feeding turkey. My 13 lb. pom began eating raw about a month ago. Because he has had 3 attacks of pancreatitis since I adopted him 3 years ago, I kept him on chicken for the first 3-4 weeks, not wanting to introduce a new protein source too quickly. I then found some nice, big turkey necks on sale a week ago. He loves chewing on it. I do give him cut up chicken breast with this. My question is, is it wise for me to be feeding him a turkey neck? I have read in a number of places, including this list, that turkey necks can be dangerous. Would that just apply to dogs bigger than a pom? The other question is--what about turkey legs. The bone looks quite large and hard. Is there a danger he could either damage his teeth on it, or perhaps choke? Sorry if these are silly questions--I just want to make sure. Thank you for any advice-- :-) Patty

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: More reasons to go raw!
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!

Three weeks ago I adopted a 6 mos. old Shepard mix from a shelter.
Since I got her, I have been doing soooooo much research on the
internet - mostly to learn about this 'raw meaty bone diet'. (I
have concluded that it's the best thing I can do for my girl and she
has been on it for a week now.) This site is a great source of
information and I really appreciate the free exchange of ideas and
advice.

My research has taken me in so many directions, following links and
such. One thing I have learned is it seems everything is a
controversy! Some people thinking raw feeding is crazy and think WE
are radical, some dog training websites say Cesar Milan is nuts etc
etc. I agree with you Shannon, you have take it all with a grain of
salt, and I suspect I had an emotional reaction to that website when
I stumbled upon it. (Anything that even smells of animal cruelty
and I react!) Pardon my naivete, but could this organization make
such strong accusations and just get away it? Where there is smoke
blah blah blah...

Regardless, it wasn't my intention to use this site to get
controversial. I'm new and am learning my way. Thanks for the
feedback.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. backward??
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Spencer was doing great with the raw diet, but he's taken a down turn in
terms of his skin/coat lately. Itching, scratching, kind of dull, almost
powdering, singed looking coat in parts, and he smells like chee-tos.

Seems yeasty to me, but why yeasty on meat? No grains or veggies (except
extremely once in awhile a bite of raw carrot or apple or something he'll find
outdoors etc). I'm giving him fish oil capsules (no soy) and he's on
soloxine .3 mg (is that right?) daily (1.5 2x day) per Dr. Dodds.

He has heartworms too (it's been almost two years since diagnosis).

I bathe him in Dr. B's lavendar and rinse with apple cider vinegar or lemon
solution. Using the lemon solution and/or aloe on the most aggravated areas.
Both seem to help. He's worse in dampness and also licks sometimes just
out of habit I think (?). He can be interrupted and doesn't seem to try to get
at himself when he's wearing the e-collar.

I thought th diet would help more???

Carol

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Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12213

There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: ri_bulldogs
1b. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: katkellm
1c. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: ri_bulldogs
1d. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: katkellm
1f. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: ri_bulldogs

2. feeding rabbit meat
From: lrosem3

3.1. Re: Deer
From: Loraine Jesse
3.2. Re: Deer
From: Loraine Jesse
3.3. Re: Deer
From: costrowski75
3.4. Re: Deer
From: Tracey WAGC
3.5. Re: Deer
From: susrob061174
3.6. Re: Deer
From: Loraine Jesse

4a. Supplement?
From: trayc2244
4b. Re: Supplement?
From: cozumel_leaann

5. photos question
From: beaulah_2001us

6a. menu planning?
From: Nicole
6b. Re: menu planning?
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: menu planning?
From: katkellm

7a. Scratching
From: raeminpin24

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "ri_bulldogs" ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com ri_bulldogs
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Strother"
<denisestrother@...> wrote:
>

> You don't say how old this dog is or how much he weighs. Let us
know
> these things too. But, barring the issue of too much food, it could
> be just one of those things. If he is acting his normal self, I
> would skip a meal and see how things are tomorrow and go from
there.
> Glad the others are doing well. Denise
>

Sorry. I was trying to be soo thorough too LOL. He is 11 months old
and weighs approximately 53lbs.

We had already fed him again before we got this reply. So fingers
are crossed that he will be ok. He does seem a little sleepy, but
all of the pups have been sleeping after eating lately. But they are
bulldogs so I figured maybe they were getting a good work out for
their food.

We are feeding the pups who are all in the 50 - 55 pound range 1 1/2
pounds a day (broken into 2 meals). Husband thinks maybe we overhead
him?

These pups were also getting probiotics twice a week. But stopped
when we began to raw feed. Perhaps we should start them back up?

Thanks for your help.
Becky

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ri_bulldogs" <ri_bulldogs@...>
wrote:>This afternoon he had an accident in the house (he has
> not done this since he was trained) it was definately diarhea (loos
> amost liquid consistency), there was quite a bit of mucous with it.
>No blood no bones nothing else.

Hi Becky,
Don't worry about the mucous. The mucous is produced as a response to
irritation in the intestines and is the body's way of soothing and/or
moving things along. As Dennis said, i would fast this dog for a meal
and then offer him his chicken with no skin or fat again. I would
probably offer him a smaller than normal portion for his first meal.
If all goes well, you can feed another smaller meal later on. There
are two things to consider. The skin and fat could have just been a
little too rich for him at this point in his raw feeding journey, or
the addition of the skin and fat, as Dennis said, could just have
resulted in your feeding him too much food. I am glad the others are
doing great. This little guy will do fine, too, just a little fine
tuning is required because his system just seems to be more sensitive
than your other guys. KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "ri_bulldogs" ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com ri_bulldogs
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "amvilppu" <amvilppu@...> wrote:

>
> I am not a raw expert as I am new to this too, but our pup has
giardia right now and the
> mucousy pooh and diarrhea are symptoms of giardia. It could just
be transitioning to raw
> but I would be skeptical since nothing has changed in the diet and
the pup was tolerating it
> fine. Others will have better advice, but I would monitor it and
do stool sample to rule out
> other factors if it persists. Good luck. Nothing worse that a pup
not feeling well.
>
> Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila
>

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the thought. Giardia is also
accompanied by a nasty smell most times. None of the dogs are
experiencing that. Also none goes out without supervision so the
chances are pretty slim. We live with quite a few dogs so we are no
strangers to parasites and run fecal evals ourselves pretty
regularly. Especially since all but one are bulldogs and if anything
can go wrong it will go wrong with a bully. I checked the stool
under the scope and ran a float test prior to posting and saw nothing
remiss ( a few bits of bone but nothing major).

Much luck with your puppy.
Becky

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:32 pm ((PDT))

"amvilppu" <amvilppu@...> wrote:
> I am not a raw expert as I am new to this too, but our pup has
giardia right now and the
> mucousy pooh and diarrhea are symptoms of giardia.
*****
They are also symptoms of pancreatitis and IBD and colitis. They also
happen when plain old unadorned digestive upset happens. Mucous is a
natural lubricant, it greases the pipes in order to move out the
irritant.

I agree that a fecal should be on the list of considerations; but I
also think backing up, simplifying the diet and adjusting it to suit
the needs of the dog should be happening even as other options are
considered.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:35 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ri_bulldogs" <ri_bulldogs@...> wrote:
> We are feeding the pups who are all in the 50 - 55 pound range 1 1/2
pounds a day (broken into 2 meals). Husband thinks maybe we overhead
him?

Hi Becky,
Me thinks dh is right. 2% of their weight is closer to one pound a
day. I'm not saying that you should only feed a pound a day for
forever, some dogs need more, some need less, but less food is always
better to start with and then adjust upwards if you see the dog needs
more. I think you did the right thing in dropping the probiotic. I
don't believe that it is necessary for a healthy dog on a raw food
diet. KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "ri_bulldogs" ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com ri_bulldogs
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
As Dennis said, i would fast this dog for a meal
> and then offer him his chicken with no skin or fat again. I would
> probably offer him a smaller than normal portion for his first
meal.
> If all goes well, you can feed another smaller meal later on. There
> are two things to consider. The skin and fat could have just been a
> little too rich for him at this point in his raw feeding journey, or
> the addition of the skin and fat, as Dennis said, could just have
> resulted in your feeding him too much food. I am glad the others
are
> doing great. This little guy will do fine, too, just a little fine
> tuning is required because his system just seems to be more
sensitive
> than your other guys. KathyM
>
Kathy,
It must have been overfeeding then, cuz we never gave anyone skin or
fat. We removed all of it. Maybe it would be best to continue not
giving fat and skin for a very long time.

Thanks everyone.
Becky

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2. feeding rabbit meat
Posted by: "lrosem3" lrosem3@yahoo.com lrosem3
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:54 pm ((PDT))

just started feeding my 2 dogs ground up rabbit meat,,,,they LOVE it....Lynn

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3.1. Re: Deer
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

Does it make any difference where you live for the deer? I live in Alberta, Canada and apparently the deer are supposed to have some sort of fading disease (have no idea what that means). Would that affect the dogs? In this area it is illegal to take deer off of the road and fish and wildlife do monitor. So battling my Husband about this is kind of hard. How would you know how long the deer has been dead for, like if it was rotting for a few days or, weeks, would you still feed it?
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (61)
________________________________________________________________________

3.2. Re: Deer
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

Here is a link to the site that talks about what is happening to the deer in this area. As mentioned if I could get one, not sure if it would be safe to feed to my dogs? http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/whatsnew/features/060119.aspx
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (61)
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3.3. Re: Deer
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:22 pm ((PDT))

Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...> wrote:>
> Here is a link to the site that talks about what is happening to
the deer in this area. As mentioned if I could get one, not sure if
it would be safe to feed to my dogs?
*****
There is no research that indicates CWD is transferrable to wolves.
Cats, yes. Dogs, no.

Where CWD has been an issue in the US, natural culling by wolves of
ailing deer is believed to keep down the spread of the disease to
other deer. When wolf populations decrease, the level of CWD
appears to increase. Artifically culled herds lead almost
invariably to decreased wolf populations, since wolves depend on
stable deer populations. When the wolf population drops, the
incidence of CWD rises. And then the F&W have to kill more deer,
not less.

The big problem (at least as it presents itself here in California,
a state that does not currently have CWD) is the inability of
hunters to move deer into a non-CWD area from even a potential CWD
area. This diminishes by a LOT how much venison the custom butchers
receive to process and virtually stops the supply of trim to
opportunistic rawfeeders.

If you get a deer locally, you can feed it to your dogs without
worrying about CWD---IF the local F&W guys allow you to keep it.

If you can feed it but you are worried about CWD transferring to
your dog, don't feed the brain, neck, spine or tail.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (61)
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3.4. Re: Deer
Posted by: "Tracey WAGC" wagc@sasktel.net frustrated_tracey
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

CWD or Chronic wasting disease in Saskatchewan, we cull the deer and Elk here in certain zones, SERM gives you three tags and after you fill them you cut the head off and turn it in and they give you three more tags, they test a small piece of the brain for CWD if it comes back negative, you can eat the deer. SERM also says CWD does not pose a threat to humans if you consume a deer. But then again will you trust the govenment. On that note though in zones outside the CWD zones rarely does one send in the head to get tested so the deer could have CWD and one would not know it, unless of course the deer is so sick that it looks sick. I killed one a few years back and when I skinned it it had no fat to speak of and looked thin. I can't remember if we ate that one or not. CWD is in the spinal fluid and brain stem so as long as your not eating that (eeeww) then you should be ok. It's actually not a bad idea if you know someone that goes out and culls the deer, last year one guy got 72 deer and gave them away to people and churches and all they had to do was wait for the test results that take about 2 weeks.
As for not knowing how long a deer has been dead for, I know that you can leave a dead deer over night and gut it the next day and it will still be ok as long as the weather is cold, if its warmer they bloat faster and stink if you press on the gut, (accidently came across someone elses kill that they lost, pretty stinky and gross, the smell of death I call it). As for feeding an old rotting one to your dog, I'm new also so someone else could answer that. Farmers around here will take a deer of the road if its close to home and give it to the farm dogs. It's illegal here but then again there are so few CO's that the percentage of getting caught is low. As for getting one thats a few weeks, well if you can get close enough to it and have the stomach to pick it up through the maggots then by all means your a better female that I. If you can do that then you could probably go ask any rancher where his dump site for his cattle are and ask him if you can go chop up some fresh cows. Now that I wrote that, its not a bad idea. Just ask the farmers when they kill a lame cow to call you and you could have alot of meat for little work.

Tracey

----- Original Message -----
From: Loraine Jesse
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: [rawfeeding] Re: Deer

Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (61)
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3.5. Re: Deer
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:59 pm ((PDT))

Infections are known in wild mule deer, elk, and white-tailed deer in
a small area of the western US and in Wisconsin/Illinois, In addition,
infections have been found in game farm cervids in USA (various
states), Canada (Saskatchewan, Alberta), and Korea. Recently, isolated
reports in wild deer in some of these regions have occurred.

Thank you for all of yall concerns, but however I am not worried about
CWD. I live in Ga, and it not a major concern here, yet. As for the
deer, it was only a couple hours old. I dont get anything that is
stiff, rotting, ants or maggots (ewwww). I always get when the insides
are still warm. Freshly killed. I live at a crossing for deer on our
land both sides of the road. It not hard to miss a deer. Its not
against the law here in our county to pickup roadkill either. Besides,
I call the sheriff department everytime when I pickup one, to let them
know the size, sex and reason for death. The major reason why I have
so much deer, is they call me to pickup deer throughout the county.
Small county and town. No one else ask for them. Thanks for the advise
on the cattle ranchers, we a have lot around here, never thought of it.

Susanne, Courtney & The Danes

Messages in this topic (61)
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3.6. Re: Deer
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:53 am ((PDT))

Thank-you. Very interesting indeed and good advice. I live near allot of farmers yet, travel hours just to pick up meat and chickens. Appreciate the ideas.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: wagc@sasktel.net
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Messages in this topic (61)
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4a. Supplement?
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
If my dog rarely gets fish in his diet, is it appropriate to
supplement with fish oil capsules? And if so, what is the best to buy?

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Supplement?
Posted by: "cozumel_leaann" cozumel_leaann@yahoo.com cozumel_leaann
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi! I feed raw and often add a product called Grizzly Salmon Oil to
my dogs' food. It comes in a pump bottle, and I just squirt it over
the food. It beats trying to shove a capsule down their throat, or
messing with puncturing one and squirting it all over the place.

That's just my opinion!

Good luck with it!
Lea Ann

Messages in this topic (2)
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5. photos question
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:53 am ((PDT))

Can someone please tell me why I cannot create a photo album? There is
not place that says creat photo album. Is this feature shut down?

Sandy

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. menu planning?
Posted by: "Nicole" reotec@mertonrush.com.au mammosgrub
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:53 am ((PDT))

Hi to everyone.

I am new to the site so thought i would intro myself (and pets) before
i ask my question.

My name is Nicole and i live in Melbourne, Australia, with my 9yo
Rottweiler dog (Maverick) and 2yo Burmese cat (Remi). I am just
switching my pets over to raw, hence me visting your site.

I am wanting something like: meal#1 = ##kg diced beef with ##grams
liver with #x chicken carcases?? or meal#2 = 2xchick drumstick with
turkey carcass or meal#3 = ##kg beef brisket with #gms Ox tails....etc

My other question is can dogs be fed frozen mice/rats? If so how many
would be a meal?

Many thanks for any responses.

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: menu planning?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:20 am ((PDT))

Hi Nicole,

Welcome. Start with around 2-3% of the dog's body weight in food per
day, fed as frequently as you're currently feeding. I don't have
cats but they're similar, although can be trickier to switch. You'll
get some cat advice here, but there is also the sister list, RawCat,
where you can get a lot more help.

For the first week or two, you'll want to keep it simple and try not
to overfeed or feed too much variety or too much fat, to keep from
having digestive issues. Most people find chicken easy to start
with. You can just buy whole chickens, cut into halves or quarters
for your dog, and feed. Save the organs for a couple weeks down the
road or more, when things are going well. Then you can start
gradually adding in more variety, too.

After several years of raw, and a year of prey model, my 23# dog's
current diet looks something like this: Because this is what I had
around for a new rescue I just adopted, yesterday he had about 1/4#
chopped turkey breast and 1/4# of a very large turkey neck. The day
before, he had another 3/4# of the same large turkey neck. The day
before that, he had about 1/2# boneless lamb meat plus worked on the
meat and cartilage of some lamb leg bones. The 2 previous days, he
had Kongs (red rubber toys you fill w/food/treats) filled with either
ground rabbit or beef. He's also been eating a lot of big pork necks
with added meat (usually lamb). Sometimes I feed boneless hunks of
lamb or beef with a chicken foot or two as well (to add some bone to
the meal). I love to get him big hunks of goat, too, so if I do
that, he'll work on a 5# leg or other part for several days. When I
have it and think about it (every few days to every couple weeks) I
throw in a small piece of pork spleen, lamb or beef liver,
pork/beef/lamb/turkey heart or any other organs. I find he does
better if I don't feed more than 1 or 2 boneless meals in a row (the
bone helps firm up the stool). I have also fed the occasional egg.

Dogs can eat mice and rats, but I personally haven't fed them. Maybe
others can help out on that one.

So, the diet will depend on what you have access to and what your dog
does well with. You will learn your sources over time. And, it all
balances out over time. You don't have to get all the
nutrients/variety in in one day or week or two.

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole" <reotec@...> wrote:
> I am wanting something like: meal#1 = ##kg diced beef with ##grams
> liver with #x chicken carcases?? or meal#2 = 2xchick drumstick with
> turkey carcass or meal#3 = ##kg beef brisket with #gms Ox
tails....etc

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: menu planning?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:42 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole" <reotec@...> wrote:
> My first question is can anyone supply me with their actual weekly
> meals for their dog? I can find lots on what types of things to feed
> - but i am kind of wanting a plan to follow for the first week or two
> to kick me off.

Hi Nicole,
Nice to meet you and Maverick and Remi. For the first week, your menu
will be very easy. You need, for your dog, to pick one protein
source, normally the recommended first meat is chicken, and feed it
for a week. How much chicken to feed is determined by figuring what
2%of your dog's ideal body weight is and then you feed that amount
daily. Since your dog's digestive system needs time to adjust to raw
food, your dog needs to gradually build up the ability to handle a
variety of parts from a variety of critters. If you feed too much new
food too soon, you are liable to end up with lots of loose stools. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Scratching
Posted by: "raeminpin24" raeminpin24@yahoo.com raeminpin24
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:20 am ((PDT))

I did so well figuring out how to post that after I did so and everyone
who answered me was so nice I have another question. For those who did
not read the last question I have 3 dogs that this friday I started on
raw and now I noticed last night that my german pinscher is scraching a
lot, could this be the weather as she came from New Jersey to Pa or is
it the raw diet and something I'm not or doing needs changed? She has
been with me since July 5th of this year. I also have her and my
minature pinscher eating grass and wanting out to get it more often and
my other Fox Terrior thew up some yellow acid color but dosen't eat the
grass as often. Any sugestions would be much welcome.

Thanx Rae

Messages in this topic (8)
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