Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 17, 2007

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12173

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Beef lungs
From: doreenchui

2a. Re: Flax seed oil
From: Laurie Swanson
2b. Re: Flax seed oil
From: doreenchui
2c. Re: Flax seed oil
From: Sandee Lee
2d. Re: Flax seed oil
From: Finster Boy
2e. Re: Flax seed oil
From: Shannon Parker
2f. Re: Flax seed oil
From: doreenchui
2g. Re: Flax seed oil
From: moemahood@aol.com
2h. Fish oil capsules Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Flax seed oil
From: Pepper

3a. Re: New to raw feeding - loose poo
From: costrowski75

4a. Raw Feeding and LGD
From: siamesekittens4u@aol.com

5a. Anal glands prone to infection
From: Finster Boy
5b. Re: Anal glands prone to infection
From: carnesbill
5c. Re: Anal glands prone to infection
From: Sandee Lee

6.1. Re: Freecycle ad Was: Venison
From: Kathie Middlemiss

7a. Chicken? But she loves Beef! Help.....
From: tiffany
7b. Re: Chicken? But she loves Beef! Help.....
From: carnesbill

8. Is it the eggs?
From: rlayt

9a. Re: Restrictive diet questions
From: carnesbill

10.1. Re: Newbie
From: Diane Young
10.2. Re: Newbie
From: Diane Young
10.3. Re: Newbie
From: Sandee Lee
10.4. Re: Newbie
From: Giselle

11a. Urine Struvites/crystals
From: Corky Becker
11b. Re: Urine Struvites/crystals
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
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1. Beef lungs
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

This is the first time that I am feeding organs. To start with, I will
try beef lungs. How much to feed or start with a 31 lbs dogs? I fed him
beef heart this morning and am thinking of feeding lungs in the evening.
Doreen

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

Hi Doreen,

You can probably tell if it's rancid by smelling or tasting it. But
you're not going to get much recommendation to feed it on this list. :-
) It's really not something dogs are designed to digest. Not very
natural--not something they'd have any access to in the wild (an oil
extracted from a seed).

Laurie

Messages in this topic (10)
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2b. Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

What is ideal for the coat then? Any recommendation?
Thanks.
Doreen
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Doreen,
>
> You can probably tell if it's rancid by smelling or tasting it. But
> you're not going to get much recommendation to feed it on this
list. :-
> ) It's really not something dogs are designed to digest. Not very
> natural--not something they'd have any access to in the wild (an oil
> extracted from a seed).
>
> Laurie
>

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))

Fish oil.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "doreenchui" <doreenchui@yeos.com>

What is ideal for the coat then? Any recommendation?

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "Finster Boy" finster_boy1@yahoo.com finster_boy1
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:33 pm ((PDT))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

I pierce a fish oil capsule and squeeze it on my dog's food. It's a
1,000 mg softgel. He's a companion quailty yorkie , and I get
comments on how shiny his coat is. Plus, his skin is in excellent
condition. No problems w/ fleas -I don't use the toxic frontline
stuff-and only minium ticks when they're "in season". I credit the
fish oil for this.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doreenchui" <doreenchui@...>
wrote:
>
> What is ideal for the coat then? Any recommendation?
> Thanks.
> Doreen
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Doreen,
> >
> > You can probably tell if it's rancid by smelling or tasting it.
But
> > you're not going to get much recommendation to feed it on this
> list. :-
> > ) It's really not something dogs are designed to digest. Not
very
> > natural--not something they'd have any access to in the wild (an
oil
> > extracted from a seed).
> >
> > Laurie
> >
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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2e. Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi Doreen,

Fish oil is great for the coat. Full of the omega fatty acids. I feed pure herring fish oil. Dogs coats look amazing.

Shannon

doreenchui <doreenchui@yeos.com> wrote:
What is ideal for the coat then? Any recommendation?
Thanks.
Doreen

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Messages in this topic (10)
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2f. Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

Pardon me for my ignorance. Pure herring fish oil means salmon oil,
cod liver oil?
Doreen
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Shannon Parker <mrbatisse@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Doreen,
>
> Fish oil is great for the coat. Full of the omega fatty acids.
I feed pure herring fish oil. Dogs coats look amazing.
>
> Shannon
>
>
> doreenchui <doreenchui@...> wrote:
> What is ideal for the coat then? Any recommendation?
> Thanks.
> Doreen
>
>
>
> Recent Activity
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> New Members
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> 1
> New Files
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>
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> Yahoo! Group for
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>
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Messages in this topic (10)
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2g. Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:38 pm ((PDT))

doreenchui <doreenchui@yeos.com> wrote:
What is ideal for the coat then? Any recommendation?

I started feeding more green tripe and that had a significant effect on both the coats and teeth of my two.

I feed whole green tripe not the ground kind -- not sure if that makes a difference on the teeth, but probably.

?Maureen

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Messages in this topic (10)
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2h. Fish oil capsules Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "Pepper" pepperanne14@yahoo.com pepperanne14
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:38 pm ((PDT))

What kind of fish oil capsules? I read that cod liver oil is not a good oil to feed the dogs... is there a different kind?

Finster Boy <finster_boy1@yahoo.com> wrote:
I pierce a fish oil capsule and squeeze it on my dog's food. It's a
1,000 mg softgel. He's a companion quailty yorkie , and I get
comments on how shiny his coat is. Plus, his skin is in excellent
condition. No problems w/ fleas -I don't use the toxic frontline
stuff-and only minium ticks when they're "in season". I credit the
fish oil for this.

Cheers,
Pep

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Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: New to raw feeding - loose poo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:01 pm ((PDT))

"cwnsc" <cwells5@...> wrote:
>
I started him with a split chicken breast and he only ate
> the leg. I reserved the remaining portion for the next night and
he
> ate that along with the an entire split piece Monday.
*****
My guess is too much food. But I don't get where the leg is on a
split chicken breast. Ribs, yes. Skin, sure. Leg? Don't know that
I've ever seen a leg attached to a breast. Do you mean split
chicken, as in a half chicken? If so that would almost certainly be
too much food for now.

I'm assuming it's just the change-over from
> kibble to raw.
*****
Probably, and maybe too much fat as well as too much food. Sometimes
you have to feed several smaller meals, with the real touchy dogs.
Some dogs just can't do chicken. If what he had was loose stools (as
opposed to diarrhea) they're not harmful, just messy. If he really
did have diarrhea (as in not able to control his bowels; explosive
and watery) then it might be something else entirely. I recommend
you skip a meal, let his system settle down.

I hate to cut his fur as it
> makes his beauty
*****
I've never had to cut the pants off any of my goldens.

> I'm hoping the rawfeeding will help with his skin problems. He is
> currently on prednisone which I'm not fond of.
*****
Pred is a nasty bandaid, it is. Not a cure. IF his skin issues are
caused by food, then raw will fix it although it may take a while to
figure out what works. And if his problems aren't "just" diet,
moving him to a species appropriate diet can only help him fight back.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Raw Feeding and LGD
Posted by: "siamesekittens4u@aol.com" siamesekittens4u@aol.com jae91254
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:24 pm ((PDT))

I have a Great Pyrennes that guards my goats. She is a BIG rea fed girl.
She doesn't associate the "food" I give her as those goats she is in the field
with. (We have butchered several goats for the dogs, they get it dead, she has
never tried to take down one of the goats for herself).
Joyce

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Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Anal glands prone to infection
Posted by: "Finster Boy" finster_boy1@yahoo.com finster_boy1
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi- I have a male 10 yr old yorkie who has been on raw feeding for
the past 3 yrs.
I feed him OMAS mix, freeze dried medallions,chicken & turkey necks-
which he will sometimes eat frozen. At night, he was used to eating a
little kibble to go to sleep, so now I've found the grain-free
dry "Instinct" to replace that.

Before switching to raw, he had a constant need to have his anal
glands expressed. Since switching to raw, that problem seemed to have
vanished.
This summer, he was symptomatic again and when the vet expressed the
glands, the fluid was infected. I treated him using alternative
methods instead of antibiotics. He seems to be prone to anal gland
infections. I suspect he has a problem again right now.
The vet is not onboard with raw feeding (are any of them?)
And he blames the diet for the anal gland back-up and infection.

I'm trying to get him to eat more fiber- canned pumpkin mixed w/
ground flax and some cottage cheese w/ acidolpholis added-just as
a "treat", but he has an aversion to veggies-in any form- Plus the
common yorkie- brat-picky eater thing.

Has anyone else experienced similar problems w/ the anal galnds? Any
suggestions for resolving this problem?
Thanx,
Patricia

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Anal glands prone to infection
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Finster Boy" <finster_boy1@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi- I have a male 10 yr old yorkie who has been on raw feeding for
> the past 3 yrs.
> I feed him OMAS mix, freeze dried medallions,chicken &
> turkey necks-
> which he will sometimes eat frozen.

I'm sorry but I don't consider what you are feeding to be a raw
diet. It's an artificial raw diet. Feed him more real animal parts
and ditch the OMAS crap and freeze dried medallions(whatever those
are).

> At night, he was used to eating a
> little kibble to go to sleep, so now I've found the grain-free
> dry "Instinct" to replace that.

It's still garbage. Dump that also.

> when the vet expressed the
> glands, the fluid was infected. I treated him using alternative
> methods instead of antibiotics.

My suggestion is to skip the alternative stuff and give the poor dog
some antibiotics to get rid of the infection.

> He seems to be prone to anal gland infections.

I doubt he is so much "prone to" but I suspect he still has the
original infection.

> And he blames the diet for the anal gland back-up and infection.

I blame not using antibiotics to get rid of the infection.

> I'm trying to get him to eat more fiber- canned pumpkin mixed w/
> ground flax and some cottage cheese w/ acidolpholis added-just as
> a "treat",

Dang, no wonder the poor dog can't get over his problem. Dogs don't
need fiber or any other of that stuff you listed. Feed him some
boney animal parts to firm him up, give him some real meds to clear
up the infection and he will be ok.

> Has anyone else experienced similar problems w/ the anal galnds?

Yes, when my Goldens were on kibble they both had anal gland
problems. Once switched to a real raw diet (read real animal
parts), their problem went away never to return again.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Anal glands prone to infection
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:45 pm ((PDT))

Patricia,

Anal glands generally are expressed when proper diet is fed. If he's been
eating mixes, medallions, ground foods, kibble (even grain-free), that could
be part of the problem. I would try feeding some nice whole foods...this
isn't going to be fixed by adding pumpkin, flax, cottage cheese or veggies.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Finster Boy" <finster_boy1@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (3)
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6.1. Re: Freecycle ad Was: Venison
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:49 pm ((PDT))

Delinda Harmon wrote:
>
> What kind of ads are you all putting on Freecycle? I always get
> lecture type
> of responses about raw feeding, and when I asked for freezer burned
> meats, I
> received a response asking why I'd feed my dogs something I won't eat.
>

This is what I posted:

Wanted: Meat scrap, trim and other discard. Cleaning your freezer?
Read this!

I make my own dog food and freezer burned or slightly "ripe" meat may
not be good for humans but it's just fine for dogs. I can use feet and
organs (especially liver and stomach/tripe) from beef, poultry, pork,
goat and lamb, and I also use fish (whole with bones and head) as well
as your typical chicken/turkey/pork/beef/lamb products so long as they
are unenhanced (flavor and nitrate free).

I have my own chest freezer, so I can handle large amounts so keep me in
mind if you are cleaning out your freezer/freezer storage.

Also if you are a hunter, I can make use of 'game' meat like
venison/rabbit/quail, etc. If you have stuff in the bottom of your
freezer from two seasons ago that you aren't going to cook, game meats
add wonderful flavor and variety! If you are having something butchered
(or are a butcher) and have trim (organs/tripe/meaty bones) I can make
use of that as well.

Please keep me in mind, very happy to come help you unload your
unwanted/unusable meats!

Hope this helps!

Kathie
Mom to: Jake, Max and Ruby

Messages in this topic (48)
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7a. Chicken? But she loves Beef! Help.....
Posted by: "tiffany" tiffanybrookeburns@sbcglobal.net divasfury
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:50 pm ((PDT))

Hello Everyone! Question.....

My husband and I have a Yorkie that we rescued, she's a 6 1/2 pound
love bug. We've been doing the Honest Kitchen formula and raw ground
beef from a whole foods market. But now that I know she doesn't
really need the grains, we're ditch'n the Honest Kitchen, and since
she actually prefers to eat the ground beef, we're excited to start
feeding her the "Raw only" tonight.

I see that most people recommend chicken first, and I know that it
needs to be more meat to bone ratio. So what part of the chicken
should I start her on? I heard a couple people say that if she's a
gulper to start with something bigger than her head... which she
would probably love. (She'd eat a whole flipp'n cow if we'd let her
at it.) Should I buy her a whole chicken and see what happens? Or
can I start with beef since we know she loves it?

I love this group!! Everyone is so helpful and informative, and I
love learning about "Raw Feeding".... does that make me a geek?

Thanks!

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Chicken? But she loves Beef! Help.....
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tiffany"
<tiffanybrookeburns@...> wrote:
>
> we're ditch'n the Honest Kitchen,

Cool ... good move. :)

> So what part of the chicken
> should I start her on?

You could try leg quarters or bone in breasts.

> Should I buy her a whole chicken and see what happens?

I'm not experienced with dogs that small but I would think something
a little smaller in the beginning would be better.

> Or
> can I start with beef since we know she loves it?

If she's been eating beef with no problem for a few weeks, you could
continue to feed it along with chicken. Eventually you want to get
a variety of meats into the diet.

> I love this group!!

Yeah, yeah, this group loves you too. LOL

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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8. Is it the eggs?
Posted by: "rlayt" rlayt@bresnan.net rlayt
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:38 pm ((PDT))

I gave both dogs a raw egg three days in a row. The next morning my
female BC/Huscky mix had bile vomit. I skipped a few days then gave
each an egg this afternoon. Late in the day she had a sloppy poop.
I am guessing I may have found a food allergy? I use cage-free eggs
from veggie fed chickens.

This is the first sign of any problems on the raw diet. They have
had chicken and turkey so far. Speaking of which, are turkeys bred
for extra-huge breast bones now? That sucker is a strong bone.

Tonight I started on beef ribs and had my doubts as to whether or
not my furry ones would actually chomp down the bone. I'm thinking
there is a piece of bone still around but not much of one.

I am not having any luck finding any good deals, like some of the
prices you all report, around here in my local grocery. Can someone
direct me to a group that is cooping on buying meat or tell me
something about finding anything? I go to the grocery every three
days and have hit different ones just in case but I never see
chicken for less than 1.19 a pound. Beef is much higher.

And, a dumb question here for sure, but why would my butcher have
pieces and parts here? Don't these chain stores like Albertsons,
Safeway etc get their meat already pre-cut and packaged? I keep
seeing advice to ask the butcher for things. Are they actually
getting whole animals? Legs? Rib-cages? What is actually going in
the back door? LOL.

Sorry if these are dumb things to ask. My dogs are really loving
this new way of eating and I want to keep it up, in spite of some
negative reactions. The trainer at class told me dogs shouldn't get
raw because the vet told her 1. Someone who fed raw got bitten by
their dog and got blood poisoning from it, 2. Dogs have evolved
beyond eating raw now.

Robin

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Restrictive diet questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:38 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandrea" <misssweetpeas@...>
wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> I have been raw feeding my crew since last March and the first food
> recall. I have three dogs and three cats. My dogs are:
>
> 1. Greta, 60 pound female bernese mountain dog
> 2. Cliff, 100 pound male great pyrenees dog
> 3. Louie, 26 pound mutt
>
> My dogs are currently eating primarily chicken. They eat the meat,
> the bones, and the fat. When eating only chicken they do just
> fine. Anytime I add some other food to their repertoire, even just
> small amounts, I get liquid diarrhea in the house on the rugs.
What
> does seem to work is an occassional fish treat, such as a smelt
> each, or an ocassional chicken liver as a treat. They all seem to
> do best having bone with every meal as opposed to some bony meals
> and some all meat meals. They also seem to do best with
appropriate
> sized meals as opposed to eating a large meaty bone with tons of
> meat and less bone for a meal and then a lesser amount of food for
> the next meal. They are fed once a day.
>
> When I say they don't do well on the other foods, I mean that they
> are having liquid runny stools. I seem to have the mix of bone and
> meat down fine with the chicken. They do okay with ocassional lamb
> although that is pretty pricy. Beef seems to go right through them
> although if I give a beef rib or two as a supplement they do okay
as
> long as it is once in a week not more often than that. I have
tried
> adding spleen and beef liver without luck. They seemed to do well
> on beef heart but I only found it one time at the very beginning of
> our raw feeding program. I have fed chicken hearts as a meal and
if
> I give some bone too they can do this once in a while.
>
> My vet is all in favor of a raw diet with the exception of pork as
> she says trichinosis has not been totally eradicated yet. I have
> fed pork at the beginning and they love it but unless I can find
> some sort of bone to balance out the large amounts of meat on the
> roast I get diarrhea.
>
> My vet at this point is saying to supplement the dogs with a multi-
> vitamin (Natural Pet Daily Canine Multi-Vitamin, Solid Gold or
Nupro
> multi-vitamin). I have only ever added one item at a time and I
> always go back to the all chicken until stools are stable again and
> then try something else again. We somehow always end up back at
> chicken.
>
> I am open to any advice I can get. I am quite happy feeding raw
> unless a diet such as they seem to tolerate is less healthy than a
> quality kibble.
> Thanks for the help.
> Sandrea

> So, my question is two fold:
> 1. Why can't they tolerate anything but chicken without diarrhea?

I don't know but I have some suggestions. First, try switching to 2
smaller meals a day. Try adding a different protein source one or
two meals a week. Not a whole meal of the different meat but mabye
1/4 or 1/2 the meal something new.

It's ok to feed pork. Your vet is wrong assuming you live in the
US, Canada, or Australia and assuming you are buying your pork at a
grocery store. Pork would be a good thing to attempt to add to the
diet. It digests easily and you could get a picnic roast or Boston
butt roast and cut chunks off it to feed. The Boston butt roast has
a nice bone to chew on also. Just a few chunks with a meal once or
twice a week. GRADUALLY increase the amount until you are feeding
whole meals once a week or so of pork or turkey or whatever. Only
try introducking ONE thing at a time. Don't switch to a third meat
until they are eating the second with no problems.

> 2. Are they okay just eating a diet of chicken getting perhaps 2-3
> chicken livers a week.

Probably so but it would be better to have two or three more
different meats you could occasionally feed. I feed chicken or
turkey 4 or 5 days a week. The other two or three days they get a
variety of other stuff.

The
> vet put him on antibiotics last Friday for what she terms "garbage
> gut" and he has been just fine since.

"Garbage gut" means, "I have no clue what the problem is but I will
sell you some meds and MAYBE he will be better in a few days."

Good luck with adding new meats to their diet. After typing this
post and as I think more about your dog's problems, the more I
wonder what you could be doing wrong. I don't see three unrelated
dogs all having exactly the same digestive problems because of the
same physical problem with each dog. There has to be more to it but
I don't know what it might be. Something else is making your dogs
sick. Maybe its the way you are feeding ... maybe you are feeding
too much volume ... maybe there is too much excitement around when
they are eating ... maybe they are being hovered over while they eat
something new ... maybe they feel more tension from you when they
eat something new ... i have no idea but I don't see it as being
something wrong with each dog. What is different when they eat a
new meat?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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10.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Diane Young" dkyoung63@yahoo.com dkyoung63
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

I disagree about the veggies, kelp, etc. Some of you here feed a prey diet, but that isn't the only raw diet and those who feed veggies and other stuff like yogurt shouldn't keep being told that the way they're feeding is wrong. I have had perfectly healthy dogs with feeding the other stuff and variety is not a bad thing. Dogs eat grass and leaves when you take them outside, and my dogs have all LOVED apples.

The only things I know that absolutely should be avoided even as part of a raw diet are chocolate and onions, and there is some debate about tomatoes so I'm careful with them. Flaxseed oil is just as good as fish oil for Omegas in the diet, and is included as part of the mixes I feed my dog, which are made by a breeder in OH who has been raw feeding for most of her life.

~Diane Young

You do not have to do any of that makework nonsense except feed meat,
bones and organs. No above ground veggies, no below ground veggies,
no leafy greens, no ground nuts, no kelp, no alfalfa, no supplements
at all (except fish body oil maybe).
Chris O

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

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Messages in this topic (186)
________________________________________________________________________

10.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Diane Young" dkyoung63@yahoo.com dkyoung63
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:41 pm ((PDT))

I agree, I feed in crates as well since I have found that the dogs like to drag it around the house and I don't like cleaning it off of the carpet or furniture. A squirt with a cleaner containing bleach and a paper towel cleans the crate right up and makes my life easier.

Diane Young

Carol Dunster <cedunster@centurytel.net> wrote: On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:57:34 -0000, you wrote:

> Where to feed the dog in our house,
>whether to use a rug or mat or some other idea, what to use for clean up, what about wiping
>the dogs paws or beard....tips?

My four Silkys have eaten in their crates all their lives. I find
that very convenient.

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

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Messages in this topic (186)
________________________________________________________________________

10.3. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:55 pm ((PDT))

If you are feeding a carnivore, prey model *is* the only appropriate way to
feed. Variety when it comes to body parts and animals is great, but adding
inappropriate foods such as yogurt and veggies, uhuh! Doesn't work.
Carnivores require meat, bones and organs!

Mixes are not appropriate...flax definitely isn't. The essential
ingredients in flax aren't even available without being converted, a process
that is very inefficient. There is no comparison between flax and fish
oils.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Diane Young" <dkyoung63@yahoo.com>

> I disagree about the veggies, kelp, etc. Some of you here feed a prey
diet, but that isn't the only raw diet and those who feed veggies and other
stuff like yogurt shouldn't keep being told that the way they're feeding is
wrong. I have had perfectly healthy dogs with feeding the other stuff and
variety is not a bad thing. Dogs eat grass and leaves when you take them
outside, and my dogs have all LOVED apples.
>
> The only things I know that absolutely should be avoided even as part of a
raw diet are chocolate and onions, and there is some debate about tomatoes
so I'm careful with them. Flaxseed oil is just as good as fish oil for
Omegas in the diet, and is included as part of the mixes I feed my dog,
which are made by a breeder in OH who has been raw feeding for most of her
life.

Messages in this topic (186)
________________________________________________________________________

10.4. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Diane!
You can feed your dogs however you like.

Anyone can.

But this list's stated purpose is to support and promote a species
appropriate raw whole prey model diet for the people who come here for
education and help.

If you don't agree with the purpose of this group, to give approved advice
and encouragement to people honestly looking for an optimum diet for their
dogs, why are you here, hassling volunteers and confusing newbies?

And, how can you tell if your dogs *are* perfectly healthy and that there is
no room for improvement, if you haven't given whole prey model, and only
whole prey model a real trial?!

Please read the information on the list owner's website on raw feeding;
http://www.rawlearning.com/index.html
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html
http://www.rawlearning.com/premaderaw.html

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12172

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Venison
From: Giselle
1.2. Venison
From: Delinda Harmon
1.3. Re: Venison
From: T Smith
1.4. Re: Venison
From: Giselle

2a. About to start
From: Lynette
2b. Re: About to start
From: T Smith

3a. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
From: joni savage
3b. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
From: Laura Atkinson
3c. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
From: joni savage
3d. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
From: nikkisevy@aol.com

4a. HOW DO I GET THERE?
From: totaly_his
4b. Re: HOW DO I GET THERE?
From: Giselle

5.1. Re: Newbie
From: T Smith

6a. Re: Just switched to raw- question
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

7.1. New Here
From: Marti

8a. Re: bin it or feed it?
From: Giselle
8b. Re: bin it or feed it?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: {Raw Feeding} OT - My female hasn't come into heat!
From: Tina Berry

10a. New to raw feeding - loose poo
From: cwnsc
10b. Re: New to raw feeding - loose poo
From: T Smith
10c. Re: New to raw feeding - loose poo
From: cwnsc

11. sucess
From: Mary Tinder

12. Restrictive diet questions
From: Sandrea

13a. Flax seed oil
From: doreenchui
13b. Re: Flax seed oil
From: doreenchui

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Re: Venison
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:23 pm ((PDT))

Ah - Ha!

Feeding raw is a continually eye opening experience! ^_^

More fun and lots more educational than teevee.

Puts me in mind of "Dogs in Elk"
http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~solan/dogsinelk/
http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~solan/dogsinelk/validity.htm
http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?14@@.ee90352/1317

TC, Kathie
Giselle

On 10/17/07, Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I had thought my dogs were in love with their raw diet.
> I only believed they really loved their meals.
>
> This afternoon after handing them a venison rump roast, I see how very
> wrong I was.
>
> My three went after this hunk of meat as if they were starved. Tails
> wagging as they playfully snarfled at each other waiting their turns at
> the meat, both paws planted to hold it in place as they tore into it.
>
> Thanks to a Freecycle ad I have a half a freezer chock full of goodies
> like this as well as some moose and the promise of another phone call in
> November to give me more.
>
> *This* is how dogs should be I think!
>
> Kathie Mom to:
> Jake, Max and Ruby
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (47)
________________________________________________________________________

1.2. Venison
Posted by: "Delinda Harmon" dharmon@homenetnw.net delinda_harmon
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:36 pm ((PDT))

What kind of ads are you all putting on Freecycle? I always get lecture type
of responses about raw feeding, and when I asked for freezer burned meats, I
received a response asking why I'd feed my dogs something I won't eat.
Always negative responses on feeding my dogs raw meats, and as of yet have
not received a bite of meat or a positive response. The grocery stores tell
me it is illegal to give away or sell dated meat. So the destroy it somehow,
not by just putting it in dumpster. I'd appreciate some ideas on how to word
an ad, so I might be able to post to freecycle again and get a better
response and maybe some dinner for my babies.

Thank you,
Delinda

Use what talent you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang
except those that sang best.
Henry Van Dyke.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (47)
________________________________________________________________________

1.3. Re: Venison
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:47 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

I just had a lady contact me to come get a shelf full of frozen meats!
I used an ad that Maggie sent to me. The wording was perfect. I got a
couple replies but there wasn't a negative one, perhaps it was the wording!

Maggie? Step on up to the pedestal, eh?
I wonder WHAT the grocery stores do do with their meats.... ancient Chinese
secret, huh?
Trina

On 10/17/07, Delinda Harmon <dharmon@homenetnw.net> wrote:
>
> What kind of ads are you all putting on Freecycle? I always get lecture
> type
> of responses about raw feeding, and when I asked for freezer burned meats,
> I
> received a response asking why I'd feed my dogs something I won't eat.
> Always negative responses on feeding my dogs raw meats, and as of yet have
> not received a bite of meat or a positive response. The grocery stores
> tell
> me it is illegal to give away or sell dated meat. So the destroy it
> somehow,
> not by just putting it in dumpster. I'd appreciate some ideas on how to
> word
> an ad, so I might be able to post to freecycle again and get a better
> response and maybe some dinner for my babies.
>
> Thank you,
> Delinda
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (47)
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1.4. Re: Venison
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
Most supermarket/butcher store chains have contracts to sell
expired meat to companies that sell to pet food manufacturers. Who then, of
course, cook it, add all sorts of additives and inappropriate ingredients to
it, then make the mess into Doom Nuggets *tm (Carrie! ^_^)
Sad, isn't it?
Small independent stores, I suspect, just do toss it in the dumpster.

Did ya ever read;

http://www.amazon.com/Food-Pets-Die-Shocking-Facts/dp/0939165562/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-3464703-4909651?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192659708&sr=8-1
*http://tinyurl.com/28fy7g

*TC
Giselle

>
> <snip>
> I wonder WHAT the grocery stores do do with their meats.... ancient
> Chinese
> secret, huh?
> Trina
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (47)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. About to start
Posted by: "Lynette" lraefried@sbcglobal.net cherrysmomma
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:34 pm ((PDT))

I am about to start feeding Cherry her raw diet. I beleive I start with
chicken for the first couple weeks. When just starting should I take
the skin off? I thought I read something about too much fatty stuff
would not be a good idea, is skin fatty? Hope I do not sound like a
complete idiot.

Lynette

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: About to start
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:48 pm ((PDT))

You don't sound like an idiot :-)
I kept the skin on and all for mine.
I have 9 dogs, small & GIANT....
We are 3 weeks-ish into this and give chicken, turkey necks, hamburger &
ribs.
This is what we are sticking with for a few more weeks.
Every now & then I sneak in a bit of liver or heart if they eat it.
Trina
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

On 10/17/07, Lynette <lraefried@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> I am about to start feeding Cherry her raw diet. I beleive I start with
> chicken for the first couple weeks. When just starting should I take
> the skin off? I thought I read something about too much fatty stuff
> would not be a good idea, is skin fatty? Hope I do not sound like a
> complete idiot.
>
> Lynette
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
Posted by: "joni savage" jonivelvet@yahoo.com jonivelvet
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sarah,
I think you're right. That's pretty much what we are thinking too. I've read that poms can whelp earlier than the standard 9 weeks, so she could definitely be ready to go. Thanks for your reply and reassurance. By the way, her status is the same: still not eating, refusing to come out of the whelping box, a few moans every now and then. Not digging quite as much as she was at 4:30 this morning. I offered her some lunch but she was not interested. So I think we are within hours of the big event. Thanks again.
Joni

Maofryan@aol.com wrote: Joni
All bitches go off food when they are ready to whelp...it is one of the
signs of early labor. I have GSDs all the time at 58 days...you will be fine.
Sarah

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

The period of gestation is 63 days...from the date of ovulation. Breeding
can happen either before or after ovulation and still take, but the puppies,
extraordinary circumstances notwithstanding, will be born 63 days from the
date of ovulation. If you don't do progesterone testing, then you're using
a "best guess" to determine when the due date is based on when you had ties.

It's normal, I've read, for bitches who are within a day of whelping to
decide they're done eating for a bit. Keeping vanilla ice cream around for
a bitch in whelp is a good idea. It adds a little bit of sugar (energy)
during the whelping process and the calcium will keep contractions strong.
I'm not sure where you find "raw" vanilla icecream though, so go for the
stuff that's got as few chemical names in the ingredients as possible.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
Posted by: "joni savage" jonivelvet@yahoo.com jonivelvet
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:06 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES OR THEY WILL BE DELETED.***

Sounds like Haagen Daaz to me! Maybe the light version so it won't be too rich. I had read the ice cream tip in several places, but recall reading that is better to hold off until after the whelping to give any extra calcium?

Thanks for the gestation info. Yes, I was making my calculation from the date of the first tie, and had forgotten about the unknowns of the actual conception.

At this point, I'm figuring she's within 24 hours of whelping and she must have enough nutrition in her system to get her through it. Like I said in a previous post, she's been eating pretty healthy portions for the last week or so.

Thanks for your reply!
Joni

Laura Atkinson <llatkinson@gmail.com> wrote: The period of gestation is 63 days...from the date of ovulation. Breeding
can happen either before or after ovulation and still take, but the puppies,
extraordinary circumstances notwithstanding, will be born 63 days from the
date of ovulation. If you don't do progesterone testing, then you're using
a "best guess" to determine when the due date is based on when you had ties.

It's normal, I've read, for bitches who are within a day of whelping to
decide they're done eating for a bit. Keeping vanilla ice cream around for
a bitch in whelp is a good idea. It adds a little bit of sugar (energy)
during the whelping process and the calcium will keep contractions strong.
I'm not sure where you find "raw" vanilla icecream though, so go for the
stuff that's got as few chemical names in the ingredients as possible.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
Posted by: "nikkisevy@aol.com" nikkisevy@aol.com mavreenhering
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

Joni,

Keep us posted on the big event. I hope all goes well and you have
healthy, happy pups and mom.

Nicole

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. HOW DO I GET THERE?
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, I am new to this forum and I sent a message about what to give for a treat to my raw
feeding dog. The Moderator sent me a message telling me to go to "Raw Chat" for this
discussion. How do I get there? Thanks so much and thanks for your time moderating this
forum Jackie

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: HOW DO I GET THERE?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Jackie!
Welcome!
This raw feeding list is high volume, a LOT of people that are looking for
answers and help post here. So the solution, to keep the responses doable,
is to restrict the topics here to the "Why?" "What?" "When?" "Where?" and
"How To?" of raw feeding for newbies and to redirect the off topic subjects
to Raw Chat, a sister list;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350

There have been many discussions on RAW treats on this list;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/142146

message # 142146
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?date=any&DM=------------&DD=----&DY=----&DM2=------------&DD2=----&DY2=----&AM=contains&AT=&SM=contains&ST=treats&MM=contains&MT=&charset=UTF-8
*http://tinyurl.com/3ymqm7*

and Raw Chat;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/msearch?date=any&DM=------------&DD=----&DY=----&DM2=------------&DD2=----&DY2=----&AM=contains&AT=&SM=contains&ST=treats&MM=contains&MT=&charset=UTF-8
*http://tinyurl.com/39ybk5
*
HTHs, Jackie!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/17/07, totaly_his <totaly_his@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, I am new to this forum and I sent a message about what to give for a
> treat to my raw
> feeding dog. The Moderator sent me a message telling me to go to "Raw
> Chat" for this
> discussion. How do I get there? Thanks so much and thanks for your time
> moderating this
> forum Jackie
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:36 pm ((PDT))

Hi Michelle, I am one of those "neat freaks" Catherine mentions :-)
My best solution was to use crates for the dogs to eat in. Easy to clean
when done.
The rest of the cleaning would be like she says.... same as for humans. I
tend to use alot of bleach though & mop alot when they get the ribs because
they chew on them on the floor instead of in their crates since it takes
them a long time to enjoy.
Dogs usually clean themselves or each other really well. If they have long
hair you can trim it or braid it... also long ears can be put in a snood.
Trina

On 10/17/07, Morledzep@aol.com <Morledzep@aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/17/2007 7:59:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> m.chelap@sbcglobal.net <m.chelap%40sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
> Good to know! I'm trying to imagine some logistics. Where to feed the dog
> in our house,
> whether to use a rug or mat or some other idea, what to use for clean up,
> what about wiping
> the dogs paws or beard....tips?
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (182)
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6a. Re: Just switched to raw- question
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

"reachpanda" <reachpanda@rea> wrote:
> what about the prepackaged raw patties? I want to feed her 100% on my
own, but what
> about keeping some patties on hand for emergencies?

*****

Can't speak for emergencies with feeding dogs, but when I first started
rawfeeding my 3 cats at the time of the pet food recalls in March, I was worried
about having something safe on hand "for emergencies." So I bought first 2
cans to sample (they loved it), then a 24-can case of the best no-grain cat
food I could find.

I still have the entire, unopened case. I must not have had any
"emergencies." :)

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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7.1. New Here
Posted by: "Marti" pioneertown@cox.net martidrost
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:47 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
Just wanted to introduce myself. I have a 8 yr. old pug, a 2 yr. old
French bulldog and a 9 week old French bulldog that we are keeping from
our litter we just had. I am totally new to raw feeding and I am
anxious to learn all I can. I have heard that the flat faced breeds are
notorious for gulping their food and that feeding raw could lead to
choking. Anyone care to comment or have any experience with that sort
of thing? If it is true, then, would it be ok to just give them smaller
pieces? Just wondering!
Thanks,
Marti

Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: bin it or feed it?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Donna!
Umm,that would be Brawn, or in my neck of the woods (New
Jersey, not too far from Pennsylvania Dutch country), Souse!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_cheese
http://www.karlehmer.com/ProductImages/0375SuelzeLarge.jpg

I like red beet pickled eggs better;
http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Pennsylvania-Dutch-Pickled-Beets-and-Eggs/Detail.aspx
http://images.allrecipes.com/site/allrecipes/area/community/userphoto/small/7342.jpg

An some cracklin's would be lovely - fried pork rinds just aren't the same.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
You know, it might be that no one eats fresh made still greasy

> > crackling any more. I grew up with it but I sure nuf don't make it.
> > Goes along with the headcheese and pickled eggs...gone, gone.
>

> I'm glad you wrote. Do it more often, stranger.
> > Chris O
>

ps
> what the h**l is headcheese? lol!
>
> love
> donna
>
> pps
> got any sheep yet?
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: bin it or feed it?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:

> Umm,that would be Brawn, or in my neck of the woods
(New
> Jersey, not too far from Pennsylvania Dutch country), Souse!
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_cheese
> http://www.karlehmer.com/ProductImages/0375SuelzeLarge.jpg
>
> I like red beet pickled eggs better;
> http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Pennsylvania-Dutch-Pickled-Beets-and-
Eggs/Detail.aspx
*****
Okay, so it's OT but it's food. And some of it is food people might
otherwise give to their dogs. Probably even raw.

From my Swedish grammy it was headcheese (Barnegat Light, Wildwood)
but we also lived in Lititz which is about as Pennsylvania Dutch as
you can get. The pickled red beet eggs were from Lititz, big jars of
them. The pickled herring was Swedish but the pickled pig's feet
were Polish.

All good.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: {Raw Feeding} OT - My female hasn't come into heat!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

"My Whippet mix who's not quite 10 months old hasn't come into heat, yet!"

My gsd pup had her first heat at 12 months; up to 15 months is normal for
the first heat.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. New to raw feeding - loose poo
Posted by: "cwnsc" cwells5@charter.net cwnsc
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

Hello all, I began raw feeding w/my 3 yr old male golden retriever
this Sunday. I started him with a split chicken breast and he only ate
the leg. I reserved the remaining portion for the next night and he
ate that along with the an entire split piece Monday. I was thinking
Yahoo - here, we go!! However, Monday afternoon, Tuesday, and again
this morning, he had diahreeah (it is very difficult to clean up the
hind quarters on a golden <grin> and he is an inside dog. Bad doggie
farts would be much easier to deal with!

I only know of the diahreeah from the evidence on the fur of the hind
quarters and tail. He has much vanity and goes behind a tree line
that I cannot access! I'm assuming it's just the change-over from
kibble to raw. He did not go tonight. I hate to cut his fur as it
makes his beauty.

I'm hoping the rawfeeding will help with his skin problems. He is
currently on prednisone which I'm not fond of.

Cindy

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: New to raw feeding - loose poo
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

Add some chicken neck? Others would be better to confirm that but turkey
neck made my big guys right on normal poop....something they NEVER had until
raw (with) the necks. We add neck every day now. Perhaps it's just this
breed that is sensitive. My Lhasas are doing well on a drumstick twice
daily, but that's alot of bone for them, they chew them up when eating,
where the giants tend to swallow more whole so I think the Lhasas get more
out of the bone at each meal.
I'm guessing here, I'm very new to raw :-)
Trina

On 10/17/07, cwnsc <cwells5@charter.net> wrote:
>
> I was thinking
> Yahoo - here, we go!! However, Monday afternoon, Tuesday, and again
> this morning, he had diahreeah (it is very difficult to clean up the
> hind quarters on a golden <grin> and he is an inside dog. Bad doggie
> farts would be much easier to deal with!
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: New to raw feeding - loose poo
Posted by: "cwnsc" cwells5@charter.net cwnsc
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the info. I will keep at it. I truly believe raw is the
way to go!

Cindy

Messages in this topic (3)
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11. sucess
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!

We spent over an hour watching our dogs eat the chicken, a
huge "roaster" that could have been mistaken for a small turkey.
Absolutely fascinated both of us watching the Dane learn how to cope.
It didn't take too long for the others, smaller dogs, to finish their
portions.

Thanks to all for guidance. It still amazes me the incredible resourse
this internet has become.

My goat will be ready Friday, cut to order, with hide!

Messages in this topic (1)
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12. Restrictive diet questions
Posted by: "Sandrea" misssweetpeas@verizon.net sandreaelyse
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:56 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!

I have been raw feeding my crew since last March and the first food
recall. I have three dogs and three cats. My dogs are:

1. Greta, 60 pound female bernese mountain dog
2. Cliff, 100 pound male great pyrenees dog
3. Louie, 26 pound mutt

My dogs are currently eating primarily chicken. They eat the meat,
the bones, and the fat. When eating only chicken they do just
fine. Anytime I add some other food to their repertoire, even just
small amounts, I get liquid diarrhea in the house on the rugs. What
does seem to work is an occassional fish treat, such as a smelt
each, or an ocassional chicken liver as a treat. They all seem to
do best having bone with every meal as opposed to some bony meals
and some all meat meals. They also seem to do best with appropriate
sized meals as opposed to eating a large meaty bone with tons of
meat and less bone for a meal and then a lesser amount of food for
the next meal. They are fed once a day.

When I say they don't do well on the other foods, I mean that they
are having liquid runny stools. I seem to have the mix of bone and
meat down fine with the chicken. They do okay with ocassional lamb
although that is pretty pricy. Beef seems to go right through them
although if I give a beef rib or two as a supplement they do okay as
long as it is once in a week not more often than that. I have tried
adding spleen and beef liver without luck. They seemed to do well
on beef heart but I only found it one time at the very beginning of
our raw feeding program. I have fed chicken hearts as a meal and if
I give some bone too they can do this once in a while.

My vet is all in favor of a raw diet with the exception of pork as
she says trichinosis has not been totally eradicated yet. I have
fed pork at the beginning and they love it but unless I can find
some sort of bone to balance out the large amounts of meat on the
roast I get diarrhea.

My vet at this point is saying to supplement the dogs with a multi-
vitamin (Natural Pet Daily Canine Multi-Vitamin, Solid Gold or Nupro
multi-vitamin). I have only ever added one item at a time and I
always go back to the all chicken until stools are stable again and
then try something else again. We somehow always end up back at
chicken.

I am open to any advice I can get. I am quite happy feeding raw
unless a diet such as they seem to tolerate is less healthy than a
quality kibble.
Thanks for the help.
Sandrea

So, my question is two fold:
1. Why can't they tolerate anything but chicken without diarrhea?
Soft stools I can understand, but that is not what I am talking
about. I am talking about liquid squirting out when they defacate.

2. Are they okay just eating a diet of chicken getting perhaps 2-3
chicken livers a week. They will all eat cornish game hen fine
although it is quite bony for the two larger dogs. With the
exception of Greta the others will also eat rabbit, but again it's
quite bony. Rabbit is the only food Greta has ever declined and she
has gone days without eating rather than accept the rabbit. I am
allowing her her one dislike. Louie, my mutt, has had pretty
regular bouts of diarrhea and then began throwing up recently. The
vet put him on antibiotics last Friday for what she terms "garbage
gut" and he has been just fine since.

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

13a. Flax seed oil
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

I am feeding my dogs Flax seed oil(in oil form). I often buy 6 bottles
at one time. I now have 1 bottle that have expired end August. Is it ok
to feed?
Doreen

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: Flax seed oil
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

I forgot to add, it's chilled.
Doreen
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> I am feeding my dogs Flax seed oil(in oil form). I often buy 6
bottles
> at one time. I now have 1 bottle that have expired end August. Is it
ok
> to feed?
> Doreen
>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12171

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Newbie
From: jonivelvet
1.2. Re: Newbie
From: rosey031801
1.3. Re: Newbie
From: Carol Dunster
1.4. Re: Newbie
From: costrowski75
1.5. Re: Newbie
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
From: jonivelvet
2b. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
From: Maofryan@aol.com

3a. Re: Very odd poo
From: Marilyn Neil
3b. Re: Very odd poo
From: Laura Atkinson
3c. Re: Very odd poo
From: jennifer_hell
3d. Re: Very odd poo
From: jennifer_hell
3e. Re: Very odd poo
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: Raw Feeding and LGD
From: costrowski75

5a. HELP! Just Started
From: totaly_his
5b. Re: HELP! Just Started
From: Andrea

6a. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: Sandee Lee
6b. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
From: pretty24355

7a. Re: New at Raw Feeding
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Re: Just switched to raw- question
From: reachpanda
8b. Re: Just switched to raw- question
From: carnesbill
8c. Re: Just switched to raw- question
From: costrowski75

9a. bin it or feed it?
From: colliewoman
9b. Re: bin it or feed it?
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: bin it or feed it?
From: colliewoman

10.1. Venison
From: Kathie Middlemiss

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "jonivelvet" jonivelvet@yahoo.com jonivelvet
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:30 am ((PDT))

Hi Michelle,
We use an x-pen lined with old towels to protect our carpet. And
since we have small dogs, we can use the same pen, arranged into two
sectioned "cubes". Each dog goes in his/her cube to eat their bones.
We have to separate them or our female (Mishka) will steal our male's
(Mickey's) bone every time. He always lets her get her way, so a long
time ago we came up with this solution. (Throwing their bones outside
for them to eat out there doesn't work for us because we live in
Montana so it's too cold in the winter for that, plus...we would still
have to do the x-pen thing outside to make sure Mickey gets something
to eat!)

As for their bloody paws, they usually enjoy licking their paws as a
post-meal activity! You can opt to keep them closed in the pen for a
little while after eating to give them time to clean themselves up.

Joni & Mike and the poms, Mickey & Mishka
Pics here: glacierpoms.com

Where to feed the dog in our house,
> whether to use a rug or mat or some other idea, what to use for
clean up, what about wiping
> the dogs paws or beard....tips?
>
> Michelle
>

Messages in this topic (181)
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1.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I feed my dog outside and he loves it. Although with bad weather it can
be a problem.

Messages in this topic (181)
________________________________________________________________________

1.3. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:57:34 -0000, you wrote:

> Where to feed the dog in our house,
>whether to use a rug or mat or some other idea, what to use for clean up, what about wiping
>the dogs paws or beard....tips?

My four Silkys have eaten in their crates all their lives, since I
used to have several more (I was breeding and showing them). I find
that very convenient. I noticed some rotten meat odors around their
faces - which looked pretty clean - so now I'm giving them a cleaner
look on their haircuts. :) I'm pretty lazy anymore!

I'd think that some of the "waterless" shampoo and a washcloth would
take care of beards though. Just squirt it on the beard and rub it off
with a washcloth or towel and they should stay really nice. Most of
the time they aren't all that messy, I think my odor problem was a raw
liver meal that is stickier than the chicken.

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (181)
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1.4. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:48 am ((PDT))

"mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:
> I'll sit back and read the Files section and start learning.
*****
Not just the files, also browse the archives. Start with any topic,
or start your search by entering a message number, then read where it
takes you. You'll see most if not all your questions answered in the
archives. You need to join Yahoogroups to access the archives, but
you'll find a link at the bottom of every rawfeeding email you
receive.

> I've already read "Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats" by Kymythy
Schultze. It seems a tad
> overwhelming now,
*****
Yes, that book is chock full of overwhelmingness! Here's what you
do: read the text. Ms Schultze pretty much gets the text right. The
text is well-thought-out. Her WHY makes sense.

Then totally, without apology, ignore her how-to section. Her
lovely, sensible conclusions about dogs/wolves fly OUT THE WINDOW
when she gets to telling us HOW to feed our dogs/wolves. I do not
know why she falls so short at the end, but she does and that's why
you are overwhelmed.

Several years ago she joined a raw list and I took the opportunity to
comment (not awfully tactfully, but hey that's me all over) on her
commplicated feeding instructions. And you know what? Besides being
a little peeved at my attitude (something I'm sure most people on
this list can understand), she said she feeds whole prey, always has.

Blow me down.

The "why" of her feeding recommendations remained unanswered however.

Moral? Don't worry about what Kymythy Schultze.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (181)
________________________________________________________________________

1.5. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:04 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/17/2007 7:59:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
m.chelap@sbcglobal.net writes:

Good to know! I'm trying to imagine some logistics. Where to feed the dog
in our house,
whether to use a rug or mat or some other idea, what to use for clean up,
what about wiping
the dogs paws or beard....tips?

Michelle,

feeding indoors isn't a problem, even for neat freaks. i chose to get
something big enough for the dogs to lay down on, since most of my dogs like to lay
down and enjoy a big hunk o meat.. i bought the $12 dog blankets at Costco.
2 for every dog (not all at one time.. lol). for the dogs that eat on carpet
i put one of the blankets down and put their food on the blanket.

it takes a couple days of you constantly returning the food to the blanket
for them to get the idea that that is where food is supposed to be eaten. But
they learn quick. I wash one set of blankets about every other week.. the dogs
clean up the blankets pretty good when they are done eating.

as far as cleaning up afterwards, i don't do anything differently than if i
was cooking meat for my family. i wipe the food prep area with warm water,
vinegar and SOMETIMES.. a couple drops of dish soap.

the dogs seem to do a pretty good job of cleaning themselves, i've never
cleaned any dog faces or paws. But we have had to wipe a couple butts after some
loose stools that i wasn't thrilled with. But that kinda thing comes with
almost any diet change and generally goes away quickly.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (181)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
Posted by: "jonivelvet" jonivelvet@yahoo.com jonivelvet
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

Hi all,
I've been lurking for a few weeks and this is my first post. We've
been feeding our two poms raw since they were puppies (they're 2.5
years old). Our female is pregnant and just hit the 56th day (8
weeks) yesterday. I should mention this is our first time breeding
and while we've done a lot of reading, we are still newbies and
obviously are nervous (AND excited) and still have lots of questions
about what to expect.

I think she's getting close because her temp has dropped, she has
started digging and you can feel the pups moving in her belly. She is
now refusing food. Yesterday she reluctantly ate her morning chicken
wing, but I had to cut it up for her AND hand feed it. This morning I
tried: round 1) chicken with ground bone & organ meat, round 2)
salmon mixed with a raw egg, and finally round 3) something she never
refuses, Charlie Bear treats. But she wasn't having any of it.

Is this ok for her to skip food? Anyone have any suggestions? BTW,
she has been eating very healthy the last couple of weeks - about
twice her normal portions - and she has been especially interested in
the organ meat. I'm guessing she knows what her body needs, and maybe
she has enough nutrition in her at this point to give her puppies the
nutrition they need?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Joni & Mike and the poms, Mickey & Mishka
Pics here: glacierpoms.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Pregnant female not eating (57th day)
Posted by: "Maofryan@aol.com" Maofryan@aol.com waldorfsarah
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:10 am ((PDT))

Joni
All bitches go off food when they are ready to whelp...it is one of the
signs of early labor. I have GSDs all the time at 58 days...you will be fine.
Sarah

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "Marilyn Neil" ems1classic@btinternet.com marilyn9751
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

Maybe you can tell me why not give natural yogurt. Im constantly having my emails blocked so no point in trying to explain my thoughts

jennifer_hell <jenniferhell@web.de> wrote: --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> I may be in trouble for suggesting this. Try giving natural live
yogurt first thing in the morning, around a small pot sized. this
will help replace the friendly bugs back into the gut. As soon as all
the good bugs are built up the sloppy poos will stop.
>
> Marilyn

No, not in trouble, but why would you give yogurt? The poo will be
back to normal when the digestive system has gotten used to the new
raw food.It's not a problem that needs to be solved.The dog is not sick.
Yogurt is not part of the natural diet of a canidae.

Jennifer with Mandy
(who still waits for an explanation on why veggies, oats, honey, goat
yogurt, milk are part of a species appropriate canidae diet if uncooked)

Ems xxx

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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3b. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:48 am ((PDT))

The entire premise of raw feeding is to stick with species appropriate
foods. Yogurt, or any dairy for that matter, doesn't fall into the category
of species appropriate.

If you give it as a treat, fine...'cause treats are treats (don't ask about
the pound of candy corn I have stashed in the freezer for the one dog who
will stand on her head for candy corn <grin>). But if you give it as part
of a meal, you're depriving the dog of the nutrition they need from what
should be in that portion of the meal - meat, bone and organ.

I suspect if you remember to sign your posts, they'll slide through
moderation more easily too.

On 10/17/07, Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe you can tell me why not give natural yogurt. Im constantly having
> my emails blocked so no point in trying to explain my thoughts
>
>
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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3c. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe you can tell me why not give natural yogurt. Im constantly
having my emails blocked so no point in trying to explain my thoughts
>
Your emails are being reviewed and then posted, because you're new (as
I am still, too). You might get one blocked if you forget to trim and/
or sign them repeatedly. There is a lot of newbie info in the files
section. =)Also check out the links provided there.
Why not give natural yogurt? Because it's not a part of a diet
appropriate for a canidae. Canidae don't ferment themselves some
yogurt because they like to eat it. They don't need yogurt. It makes
not much sense to feed it. This list advocates a prey model diet. As
you can imagine, yogurt, grains, veggies and whatever stuff some
people feed their dogs is not part of the natural prey of a canidae.
Please explain your thoughts. Trim and sign your message and it will
appear on the list (albeit it may take a little until it has been
reviewed, as the mods here are quite busy).

Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (13)
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3d. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:10 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
But if you give it as part
> of a meal, you're depriving the dog of the nutrition they need from what
> should be in that portion of the meal - meat, bone and organ.
>
You said it so much better than I did! =D

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (13)
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3e. Re: Very odd poo
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

Not only is dairy not a normal part of a carnivore's diet, there would be
little if any probiotic effect. Those powerful stomach acids that are
designed to kill harmful bacteria will also kill any possible beneficial
bacteria (which isn't much) found in yogurt.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Marilyn Neil" <ems1classic@btinternet.com>

> Maybe you can tell me why not give natural yogurt.

Messages in this topic (13)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Raw Feeding and LGD
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:02 am ((PDT))

"Kathryn" <paintedgoatfarm@...> wrote:
I ask because lgd's are supposed to be fed with their charges
> and I'm a little sensitive about giving a dog meat in front of the
> vegetarian sheep and goats.
*****
The people who created the various LGD breeds did so without benefit of
kibble or other processed foods. The dogs ate raw food and butchered
scraps and whatever else was available. If a LGD chased or killed its
charges it was removed from the gene pool. No three strikes rule for
an errant LGD.

There is no reason for a healthy, properly trained LGD to attack its
livestock. If it does, it is not because of the raw food it eats but
because it was trained improperly or because it is badly bred or is
ill. There is a big disconnect between livestock on the hoof and dead
meat.

Fortunately, there are several rawfeeders on this list who rely on LGDs
to guard their herds. I hope they will respond. If not, you can (and
should anyway) browse the list archives for past discussions.

Also some have recommended leaving the
> hide on do you think this is a good idea for an lgd?
*****
Based on my experiences with hunting dogs, I don't think it matters one
way or the other. My retrievers have been trained not to eat their
jobs, period. I assume your LGD will have been similarly trained.
Perhaps you might want to remove the hide til you see what the dog's
all about, what its capabilities are.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. HELP! Just Started
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:08 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please take ALL treat-making advice to RawChat.***

This is my third day of raw-feeding. Starting yesterday she had a few
bouts of a tummy-ache. She lowers her upper body down to the floor and
stretches and whines a little. Is this just part of the "changeover"
and her digestive system getting re-adjusted? I gave her some pure
pumpkin but that didn't stay down. She is still eating/drinking fine
and seems like she is still hungry at times(begging for my food). Am I
feeding her enough food? She is having bowel movements and they are
fine...just covered a little in mucous. No diarrhea or vomiting except
when she vomited the pumpkin up.
Day 1: 3 chicken thighs w/ bones
Day 2: 3 chicken thighs/no bones
Day 3: 2 chicken thighs/ bones
Also, I would like to be able to give her a treat sometimes. What do
you suggest. I heard someone say on the forum that they get livers and
bake them. Could you be more specific and tell me how? Thank you, Jackie

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: HELP! Just Started
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

What kind of dog do you have and how big is she? A good starting point
is to give 2% of the ideal adult weight every day.

I doubt there is anything wrong with her, maybe a mild upset with the
diet change, but if she has good stools there is no reason to worry.

Treats are treats, so you can give whatever she likes in moderation.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...> wrote:

> This is my third day of raw-feeding. Starting yesterday she had a
> few bouts of a tummy-ache. She lowers her upper body down to the
> floor and stretches and whines a little. Is this just part of
> the "changeover" and her digestive system getting re-adjusted?

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

Probably not many. Poultry isn't often on the menu and if it were, the neck
would be attached to the rest of the bird which would solve the swallowing
whole problem.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Marilyn Neil" <ems1classic@btinternet.com>

> I wonder how many wild dogs chocked on turkey necks. Just shows that
there are risks in raw feeding. Our dogs love the necks, sadly for them
they are now off the menu.

Messages in this topic (22)
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6b. Re: Whole Turkey Necks
Posted by: "pretty24355" blackdogshaven@hcinet.net pretty24355
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:24 am ((PDT))

Hi Marilyn,

> I wonder how many wild dogs chocked on turkey necks. Just shows that
there are risks in raw feeding. Our dogs love the necks, sadly for
them they are now off the menu.>

Taking turkey necks off the menu for your dogs is probably a very good
choice. However, that does not prove or disprove risks in raw
feeding. All it continues to prove is the "Know Thy Dog Rule" which we
say over and over again on our list. What some dogs can eat, others
simply cannot. Dogs choke on many items, kibble being one of them.
Our list owner knows a Chow breeder whose young puppy choked to death
on a small bit of cream cheese.

I have fed whole turkey necks to 27 dogs for well over 8 years. I am
now down to 24 dogs due to age-related illnesses. My dogs just love
them. They are big a favorite at my house.

Karen

Messages in this topic (22)
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7a. Re: New at Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:22 am ((PDT))

May not be cooked but just because it's raw doesn't make it appropriate for
a carnivore. They have no requirement for carbohydrates. Oats, yogurt,
honey and veggies are off limits. They need meat, bones and organs...and
that's all!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Marilyn Neil" <ems1classic@btinternet.com>

> Well it certainly isnt cooked!!
>
> It certainly is appropriate.

Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Re: Just switched to raw- question
Posted by: "reachpanda" reachpanda@hotmail.com reachpanda
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:24 am ((PDT))

> *****
> What sort of emergency do you mean?
>
> Raw prefab patties must be frozen. Any emergency that can undo
frozen
> whole foods will also undo prefab patties. And whole foods will
stay
> frozen longer than patties, unless the patties are bulk-packed.
>
> Any food shortage emergency that requires thawing will require
prefab
> patties to be thawed as well. An "oh I forget to thaw something
for
> dinner" situation is not an emergency. At the very least you can
> skip the meal entirely, since there are few dogs that cannot quite
> safely miss a meal. And should you have one of them, defrosting
> plain, unadulterated ground meat is no more difficult than
defrosting
> a prefab puck.
>
> If things are really and truly dire, canned or dehydrated food
(and,
> alas, dry or wet dogfood) are what will hold up. Raw prefab has
the
> same physical limitations as raw whole food and if you're referring
> to Katrina-like emergencies neither will have a lengthy shelf life.
>
> What do you mean by store bought meat "at any cost?" Taken
> literally, prefab patties will invariably be more expensive than
> whole "human grade" foods and offer less value. So what other
costs
> are you referring to?
>
> Please advise!
> Chris o
>

I guess I should be more aware of my wording around here! By
emergency, I just meant the "forgot to get something for dinner"
variety. And since I'm new to raw feeding Im still worried about
feeding the right balance. I'm trying to break myself from thinking
that 'prepackaged' means more balanced or better in some way. I'll
just have to keep reading everyones great advice!

Andrea

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: Just switched to raw- question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "reachpanda" <reachpanda@...> wrote:
>
> And since I'm new to raw feeding Im still worried about
> feeding the right balance.

Stop worrying about that right now. There is no such thing as "right
balance". Don't shoot for it. It doesn't exist. Feed your dog a
variety of animal parts from a variety of animals and all will be ok.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: Just switched to raw- question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:33 pm ((PDT))

"reachpanda" <reachpanda@...> wrote:
> By
> emergency, I just meant the "forgot to get something for dinner"
> variety
*****
Ah.
Well, that can be dealt with by feeding nothing, or cobbling together
some leftovers. Or thinking ahead for the next time by buying a few
pounds of ground meat and making your own patties that are easily
defrosted.

And since I'm new to raw feeding Im still worried about
> feeding the right balance. I'm trying to break myself from thinking
> that 'prepackaged' means more balanced or better in some way.
*****
Balance is not a natural conceit. It is needed when the ingredients
are finite and the food is never ever different. If you are living
in a closed system, there's no way to adjust so everything gosh darn
better be "in balance." Commercial dog food is a closed system.

Feeding a variety of body parts from a variety of animals is a wide
open system that not only allows for change but also encourages it.
If you "miss" something today you can "make up for it" tomorrow and
tomorrow and tomorrow. You do not need to make each day--each meal--
perfect because, like Old Man River, life just keeps rolling along.
In a raw diet, "sooner or later" and "eventually" work just fine.

Prepackaged food, even if spreadsheet perfect, isn't necessarily the
most healthy. Prepackaged inappropriate ingredients--regardless of
how clinically "balanced" they are--are still inappropriate
ingredients.

All commercial menus can do is hope to emulate Ma Nature. A diet
based on what prey provides IS Ma Nature.

Remember to breathe.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. bin it or feed it?
Posted by: "colliewoman" donna.frankland@ukonline.co.uk colliewoman
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))

oh yes, i have been the queen of blag AGAIN!!!
nice mr butcher man ina village on one of my rounds at work (i do
kerbside recycling) is now giving, yep, GIVING me a sack of 'stuff'
every week.
'stuff' varies from week to week, it used to be lots of beef bones but
i asked him not to put those in (beggars CAN be choosers, ya just have
to be cheeky ;) )
so now it tends to be;
chicken carcasses and wings,
lamb ribs and necks,
long pigs feet (WOOOOOO HOOOOOOOO!!!)
raw pigs ears, ick, but it keeps em busy for a bit,
piggy tails,
random bits of meat, i have no idea what!
and large squares of pig skin/fat (why do they remove this? does no
one eat crackling any more?)
the last one, is it worth/safe/wise to feed this?
i know the rest is on the boney side, but thats where i fill in with
beef trim and tripe. but the extra fatty stuff? i dunno what to do!

but whilst i'm gloating (hahahahahaa!) i also got given 6 whole lambs
plucks! with liver and heart and trachea and everything still joined
on in one whole squishy blob! gooooo meeeeeeeeee!
everyone should know a small hobby sheep farmer ;)
AND the green grocers next to the butcher gives me a huuuuuuge sack of
greens and trimming for my rabbits.
i'm trying to come up with a realistic blag for the bakers on the
other side of the butcher, 'i was wondering if you could save me any
unsold cream cakes for my ....er.... rats?' do you think it would
work. at least until i put on 50lb?

love
donna

Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: bin it or feed it?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:52 pm ((PDT))

"colliewoman" <donna.frankland@...> wrote:
> and large squares of pig skin/fat (why do they remove this? does no
> one eat crackling any more?)
> the last one, is it worth/safe/wise to feed this?
> i know the rest is on the boney side, but thats where i fill in with
> beef trim and tripe. but the extra fatty stuff? i dunno what to do!
*****
Donna!
It is so GOOD to see your post! Absolutely no baloney the truth I
was just thinking about you. Appears things are better now, and WHAT
a haul you made! Job well done.

You know, it might be that no one eats fresh made still greasy
crackling any more. I grew up with it but I sure nuf don't make it.
Goes along with the headcheese and pickled eggs...gone, gone.

Anyway, more for the pups. I'd say, if your herd can eat fat include
it in the menu, little by little if that would work better. The lamb
breasts I feed are extra fatty and except for an occasional runny
stool (white, from the bones, very whitewash-y looking) my dogs do
fine. If it doesn't work, don't do it again.

I'm glad you wrote. Do it more often, stranger.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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9c. Re: bin it or feed it?
Posted by: "colliewoman" donna.frankland@ukonline.co.uk colliewoman
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:15 pm ((PDT))

> Donna!
> It is so GOOD to see your post! Absolutely no baloney the truth I
> was just thinking about you. Appears things are better now, and WHAT
> a haul you made! Job well done.
>
> You know, it might be that no one eats fresh made still greasy
> crackling any more. I grew up with it but I sure nuf don't make it.
> Goes along with the headcheese and pickled eggs...gone, gone.
>
> Anyway, more for the pups. I'd say, if your herd can eat fat include
> it in the menu, little by little if that would work better. The lamb
> breasts I feed are extra fatty and except for an occasional runny
> stool (white, from the bones, very whitewash-y looking) my dogs do
> fine. If it doesn't work, don't do it again.
>
> I'm glad you wrote. Do it more often, stranger.
> Chris O

tis good to be back hun, though i must admit my absence has been down
to lazyness! my laptop died for a long time and i lost my bookmarks
etc, so kept thinking 'ooh i must google rawfeeding soon'..... and of
course never did!

but yes i am dead chuffed with my haul, i have been very lucky and i
hope it lasts. if it doesnt i may actually have to start PAYING for
animal feed! heavens forbid!

ps
what the h**l is headcheese? lol!

love
donna

pps
got any sheep yet?

Messages in this topic (3)
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10.1. Venison
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

I had thought my dogs were in love with their raw diet.
I only believed they really loved their meals.

This afternoon after handing them a venison rump roast, I see how very
wrong I was.

My three went after this hunk of meat as if they were starved. Tails
wagging as they playfully snarfled at each other waiting their turns at
the meat, both paws planted to hold it in place as they tore into it.

Thanks to a Freecycle ad I have a half a freezer chock full of goodies
like this as well as some moose and the promise of another phone call in
November to give me more.

*This* is how dogs should be I think!

Kathie Mom to:
Jake, Max and Ruby

Messages in this topic (43)
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