Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 10, 2007

Wednesday, October 10, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12144

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bonemeal
From: Andrea

2a. Re: Wretching Dog
From: T Smith
2b. Re: Wretching Dog
From: patrice_quinn
2c. Re: Wretching Dog
From: patrice_quinn

3a. Questions about Fish
From: ncrnrgrl
3b. Re: Questions about Fish
From: marblekallie
3c. Re: Questions about Fish
From: costrowski75

4a. Snowy UPDATE on bleeding gums...
From: shefy7
4b. Re: Snowy UPDATE on bleeding gums...
From: katkellm

5a. Re: Nutritional needs during pregnancy
From: diannem200400

6a. Fish?
From: angela182548
6b. Re: Fish?
From: katkellm
6c. Re: Fish?
From: Dawn Crosier

7a. Re: switching kitten to raw
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

8a. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
From: cypressbunny
8b. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
From: cypressbunny

9. flea-bite reaction / fur loss
From: linoleum5017

10a. My dog has a chicken allergy.
From: m.thompson74
10b. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
From: carnesbill
10c. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
From: Jaala
10d. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
From: Nataly A

11a. Cow Lungs?
From: Virginia Snider
11b. Re: Cow Lungs?
From: costrowski75

12. duke needs to brush his teeth.
From: nital1066

13a. Re: plaque
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: Bonemeal
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

There's no need to add bonemeal to a raw diet. Just offer edible bones
covered with meat and you'll be fine.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "fsaforo2003" <fsaforo2003@...>
wrote:

> I need to look into purchasing some, any good/known "human" grade
> bonemeal you recommend?

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

Patrice,
I don't know what breed but small breeds can get gastric upset & bloat as
well as megasophagus....
There's alot of things to be concerned about & perhaps it is nothing to do
with a bone but rather another issue.
depending on the breed, there can be several things to watch for.
As far as your vet 'scolding' you? It's your dogs & you are paying them to
care for it's needs, ALSO you are an ADULT. :-)
If they don't like that, I am sure another vet will happily treat your pet
without harassment.
I do not believe vets should preach food.......JMO
Take Care
Trina

On 10/10/07, patrice_quinn <patrice@patricequinn.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Sandee! I see what you're saying and will take that
> approach with the vet. Meanwhile, she vacillates--yesterday seemed
> better, today not so good until a few minutes ago when she barked for
> the first time since this happened so I'm not as concerned now about a
> stuck bone; do you suppose she just badly inflamed her esophagus?
> Thank you, Sandee, for being supportive! Patrice
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "patrice_quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, Giselle! I picked up the SEBP today and will start her on it
right away. Thank you for giving me some guidelines to use
in "dosing" her. You asked how she is acting--she's been up and down,
sometimes seeming almost normal, then seeming uncomfortable and doing
the "wretching" thing whether or not I've just given her a bit of food
or drink. This morning she seemed uncomfortable and listless.
However, this afternoon the doorbell rang and, for the first time in
six days, she started barking and since that moment, she has seemed a
little brighter than she has since this all started. I did check her
mouth and throat and am sure nothing's there. Until she barked today,
I was concerned a bone could be lodged between her stomach and
esophagus but I'm not so worried about that now. I'm hoping it's all
uphill from here and so appreciate your support! Patrice

Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "patrice_quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi Trina, my dogs are all mini-dachshunds. The one in question is
Sadie, she's 14 and weighs about 10 lbs. Can you tell me what
megasophagus is? Thanks, Patrice

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Questions about Fish
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

I'm new-ish to raw, would like to know a little more about feeding fish
to my large dogs (2 GSDs).

I have for many years used canned sardines as a reward when tracking my
dogs, but have read that you guys feed your dog a whole fish from time
to time. And I read something about freezing the fish for a few days
prior to feeding - but I didn't see why? and what kind of fish? Is this
mainly for the benefit of Omega 3s?

If the general rule is feeding meaty bones as big (roughly) as their
heads, is this the exception to that?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Jenny C.

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Questions about Fish
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi:

It is the salmon from the Pacific Northwest which can pose a problem
if not frozen before feeding. Here is a link to an article about it:
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/salmon.asp

Salmon from other areas or, a cheaper alternative, their heads and
frames and oily fish such as mackrel and whiting are good choices, but
not the only choices. Fish high in Omega 3 is the aim. No need to do
anything to the fish, just feed.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

> And I read something about freezing the fish for a few days
> prior to feeding - but I didn't see why? and what kind of fish?

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Questions about Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:07 pm ((PDT))

"ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
And I read something about freezing the fish for a few days
> prior to feeding - but I didn't see why? and what kind of fish?
*****
Freezing will kill parasites. This is recommended when looking to
feed wild salmon (also trout and steelhead) from the Pacific
Northwest, and in fact all wild game can be frozen first if there is
concern about parasites. Freezing will do squat to accumulated
toxins though, so in addition to sussing out the parasite situation,
you should also ask about agricultural and industrial run off.

Is this
> mainly for the benefit of Omega 3s?
*****
Fish with zipola Omega 3 can still be a good way to add high quality
animal protein variety to the menu. Fish WITH Omega 3 is doubly
beneficial.

> If the general rule is feeding meaty bones as big (roughly) as
their
> heads, is this the exception to that?
*****
"Bigger than their heads" is used as a reference to help people feed
more complicated food. In most cases, a whole fish is indeed a
complicated food regardless of size. Although whole sardines for my
retrievers are hardly more than a blink. Not as efficient as a seal,
but darned close.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Snowy UPDATE on bleeding gums...
Posted by: "shefy7" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

First I'd like to thank everyone who read and/or responded to my
post. Our vet visit today was great. Snowy didn't growl or show his
teeth to the vet once, when he usually does. Of course he got lots
of yummy fish treats.

It turns out he does have GINGIVITIS. He's only 1.5 years old. His
vet was surprised to see his teeth so clean and him so young and
healthy. But she said the bacteria is under the gums where the bully
sticks and bones and meat won't get too...

She said I could put him on antibiotics and do mouth rinses and
brushing, but that would take a long time. She recommended to put
him under anasthesia and do the ultrasonic tooth/gum cleaning. I
told her I'm a bit against that since his condition isn't that
severe. She said go ahead and try everything else first, but if it
keeps coming back we should try the deep cleaning.

Now I've always been a bit hesitant to try the real animal feeding
thing. I mean the bones with the meat on it (You'll have to excuse
me, I'm vegetarian). I'm always reading posts like oh he swallowed a
whole this or that or it splintered bla bla bla.

I would like to give Snowy a bone with meat on it, but I need a huge
piece he can chew on and I can take away after he's had his fill.
I'll have to take it away with one of those meta picker upper things
since he'll probably protect it from me. Any recommendations on
which animal/bone I should feed and is it supposed to be frozen?

Thanks in advance!

I've been putting coconut oil on his mouth twice a day and he's
getting better. But his gums are still a bit red and inflammed, no
more bleeding though...Oh and any ideas on what to do about the
gingivitis? Should I put him on antibiotics to kill the bacteria
under the gums or does anyone know any alternative meds?

Shefy and Snowy

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Snowy UPDATE on bleeding gums...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:41 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "shefy7" <shefy7@...> wrote:
> Now I've always been a bit hesitant to try the real animal feeding
> thing. I mean the bones with the meat on it (You'll have to excuse
> me, I'm vegetarian). I'm always reading posts like oh he swallowed a
> whole this or that or it splintered bla bla bla.

Hi Shefy,
The real animal feeding thing, a hunk of meat with a piece of bone
hidden under the meat somewheres, is necessary to insure all the
dental benefits that a raw diet should offer. I was a vegan when i
started raw feeding, but you have to put aside what you think is best
for you and focus on what is best for your dog. People here usually
only post if they have a problem. No one posts and says how their dog
ate yet another meal with no problems. So if you think that choking
or splintering bones, blah blah blah, are the norm, you are basing
your feelings on a handful of posts in comparison with the almost
10,000 people on the list. I'm sorry, but i don't remember what size
Snowy is, but chicken quarters, or a half or a whole chicken is always
a good starting place. Pork ribs are good food, too--a four star
rating by my 3. You can usually find bone in pork roasts on sale.
Lamb breasts are also a 2 paws up around here. There is no need to
feed any of the food frozen. If dogs/wolves couldn't eat bones safely/
successfully, they would have gone the way of the dinosaurs. I would
also like to suggest that if you haven't already done so, you might
want to join Rawchat and ask for help about resource guarding, the
thing that makes Snowy not want to relinquish his meal to you. KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Nutritional needs during pregnancy
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:06 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the reply, Stephen. I hope your girl has a successful rest
of her pregnancy and whelping! I'd love to hear about your litter!

Dianne M.

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "borodeauxs" <Borodeauxs@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "diannem200400"

> Hi Dianne,..We too have a bitch we have bred and she is looking very
> pregnant,..as for the commercial,..I would stick with your raw diet

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Fish?
Posted by: "angela182548" angela182548@yahoo.com angela182548
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi guys ~ I am new to raw and have been doing it now for the past 5
days. On friday I lost the LOVE of my life.... my 7yr old Staff.
Terrier to cancer. I took him in for sugery on his ears and the Dr.
found a 3lb mass in his abdomen spleen... when he went in he removed
his spleen and found cancer in his liver as well.(I saw pics) He
gave
him a few days to live....so I made the most unselfish decision of
my
life..:-(
It has been tough..but I have 3 other babies that I need to take
care
of and seeing the pics of his insides makes me see where years of
vaccinations, antibiotics, steroids for ear infections, commercial
dog
food, (even the best foods are garbage) took thier toll. I wish I
knew
then.......nevermind.... I just miss my guy.

I must admit, I am a bit nervous about raw but I am going for it.
Tonight I gave them each a piece of fish (talapia) ...then I went
online and started to do some research on dogs and raw fish and
found
lots of different opinions. I was hoping someone could let me know
if
fish is ok...

Thank you, Angela

Messages in this topic (22)
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6b. Re: Fish?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angela182548" <angela182548@...>
wrote:
I lost the LOVE of my life.... my 7yr old Staff.
> Terrier to cancer.

Hi Angela,
I am so very sorry to read about your beloved dog. It always seems to
me that grief is such a high price to have to pay for loving our best
friends.

>I was hoping someone could let me know if
> fish is ok...

Fish is ok to feed, as in its good, safe food, but it is not normally
the recommended first protein choice. I would think that one of the
reasons for this is that lots of dogs aren't crazy about fish. I
don't know what others will say, but i think i would switch over to
chicken. You didn't mention the size of your other dogs, but chicken
breasts and quarters are good to get ya goin type meals. You want to
feed 2-3% of your dog's ideal body weight per day. Remembering that
not every meal has to be picture perfect, overtime, you should try to
feed 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organs. Normally,
organs should not be fed for at least a week and it helps the dog to
adjust to his new food if you stick to one meat for about a week
before you introduce another. KathyM who learned this quote from Maya
Angelou on this list "I did then what I knew then, when i new better,
i did better."

Messages in this topic (22)
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6c. Re: Fish?
Posted by: "Dawn Crosier" dlcrosier@sbcglobal.net dlc110161
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

HI Angela -

I'm so sorry for your loss! That's really tough!

I firmly believe that you are doing the best thing for all your babies.

Fish is good! Meat is good! Bones are good! Kibble is bad! For right now ~
variety is bad. When switching as I understand it you need to get the
digestive system working correctly. Feeding raw food without bone can cause
loose stools, so feed your babies with bone in. The bone helps firm up the
stools. Cooked is bad since it changes the structure of the bone and creates
an indigestible bone.

Hang in there and know that you have a huge group sitting here ready to
help!

Dawn

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Messages in this topic (22)
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7a. Re: switching kitten to raw
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kristen,

I'd start with chicken, but that's just me, and yes, the ratio's the same.
They tell me cats like variety and don't need to have awhile to settle into one
meat before adding another, but I think I stayed with chicken about 2 weeks
and had them eating chicken neck bones when starting mine, before offering
something else--which was probably whole fish. My 3 love beef stew and beef
heart and tonguetongue, also pork chunks, pieces of lamb, frog legs--rabbit is a
real treat. I've never found spleen but the eat chicken and beef liver and
lamb kidney heartily.

You MAY have to feed your kids separately. I've always had to feed my 3 cats
separately or they just want to run around and try to steal from each other,
instead of eating. :)

Lynda

In a message dated 10/10/2007 6:18:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, "Kristen"
writes:

Chicken or sardines or something else?
Is the ratio for the kitten the same (10-10-80)?
Anything special I need to know?

...and just as a side question: Spleen is an organ right? I usually
feed liver, but I came across a deal I couldn't refuse and bought
spleen yesterday.

I can't wait to see how meal time works out with a dobie pup and
kitten dining together!

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, atyler1462@... wrote:
>
> David has worked tirelessly for nearly 20 years to preserve a rare
breed of
> sighthound, the Azawakh.
> Any financial help is appreciated.

*** Besides the horror of losing one's home, it would be a tragedy to
lose this already too rare breed. I've sent money.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

*** Besides the horror of losing one's home, it would be a tragedy to
lose this already too rare breed. I've sent money.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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9. flea-bite reaction / fur loss
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

Hi, everyone,

The results are in! BoJ is growing some new fuzz, praise God. Just
in time for the cold weather we're getting, too. Not only is he
growing fur back, the fur he still had feels good, again - nice and
soft. Thank you all who sent wisdom about his fur loss likely being a
flea-bite allergy, and not the rawfeeding diet, as the vet and my
friends tried to convince me. Turns out he just needed to ditch those
unwelcome muncherinos. Soft fur and renewed energy are welcome
results. And may the frost come quickly, to freeze those little
buggers solid!

Now if I could only find a vet that supports rawfeeding.....might be
too much to hope for all in one week.

Lynne

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. My dog has a chicken allergy.
Posted by: "m.thompson74" m.thompson74@yahoo.com m.thompson74
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

++++++Mod note: please sign all emails. ++++++++++++

Hi, I'm new to raw food. I'm reading that chicken would be best to
start out with. My problem is that one of my dogs is allergic to
chicken. Is it possible that he may be allergic just to the kibble
form and he may do just fine with raw? Has anyone else had this
issue?

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "m.thompson74" <m.thompson74@...>
wrote:
>
> Is it possible that he may be allergic just to the kibble
> form and he may do just fine with raw?

Not only is it possible, its probable.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
Posted by: "Jaala" vaughanjaala@aol.com central_tx_angel04
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:31 pm ((PDT))

Welcome :)
Kibble is ALOT different than raw. I would give it a try. Let us know
how it goes!
~~Jaala

Messages in this topic (4)
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10d. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
Posted by: "Nataly A" rap_squad@yahoo.com rap_squad
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:35 pm ((PDT))

Hey there,

Dog's proclaimed allergy to chicken is usually false, and is cause by other things in commercial food such as different grains (i.e corn, peanuts etc). some dogs are just plain allergic to the pet food. saying that a dog is allergic to chicken when he is fed on comm. food is simply idiotic cause there is no actual chicken in the foods - it used to be a part of a chicken (and usually not a very good part), but then it went through so many chemical changes that it should be called something else.
so don't be so sure your dog is allergic, switch to raw food, let him finish the detox and then judge for yourself.

Nat.

----- Original Message ----
From: m.thompson74 <m.thompson74@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 6:12:13 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] My dog has a chicken allergy.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Cow Lungs?
Posted by: "Virginia Snider" vsnider@cogeco.ca rawbglass
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

To update, Pug is doing well with the dehydrated smoked turkey although last
week he was given a commercial dog treat and broke out in hives..poor guy.

Cow lungs - organ or meat? Any reason not to feed him this? He likes cow
hearts.

Thanks,

Virginia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Cow Lungs?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:21 pm ((PDT))

"Virginia Snider" <vsnider@...> wrote:
>> Cow lungs - organ or meat? Any reason not to feed him this? He
likes cow
> hearts.
*****
Well, they're organs and they're plenty icky and squishy, but when I've
fed them I don't reall think of them as organs. But they're not hardly
like flesh either. They are, without fanfare, lungs. They are likely
to produce loose stools if feed immoderately.

My dogs like dehydrated lungs and although I never asked if they
actually ENJOY eating fresh lung, they certainly have never
complained. Cutting lungs is sort of like cutting a foam rubber
pillow. It is not a particularly productive experience. I've found
that scissors work better than a knife.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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12. duke needs to brush his teeth.
Posted by: "nital1066" nital1066@hotmail.com nital1066
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

i've been rawfeeding for about a year now, and duke's canines are
slowly getting more and more tarter. the rest of his teeth look ok,
but i did notice the tiny little crevices don't look that clean. what
can i feed him to help clean those teeth? lamb necks, lamb breasts,
beef ribs, pigs feet, pork shoulders are all already part of the menu
rotation. i have not been successful thus far in procuring entire
cow's feet/legs. if i really had to, i do have access to pigs heads,
but i'm rather skeeved out by them, and i'd definately have to wait
until my husband goes out of town before i could pull those out of the
freezer. ;)

duke is a 65 lb lab/dane mix with a bottomless tummy who scarfs down
food as fast as possible. he really only needs a little over one
pound of food a day, but he scarfs that down in no time. what i've
been doing lately is to give him a BIG meal occasionally, followed by
a couple days of "snack sized" meals. however, big and even frozen
haven't slowed him down too much, and i'm reluctant to feed frozen too
often, he gets ice-cream headaches afterwards and flops around on the
group, pawing at his head and rubbing his head against the carpet.

any advice would be much appreciated.
thanks
anita

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: plaque
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT))

"antarpremal" <antarpremal@...> wrote:
> Yeah, her primary diet is whole chikens. I used to cut them into
quartets. Lately I've been
> giving them whole and she tends to eat half in a day. I have fed
her slabs of pork ribs
> often as well. other additions have been turkey legs, (lamb shanks
her favorite) and
> occassionally ground beef with egg and shell, the egg and shell she
gets acouple times a
> week. Afew times fish.
*****
Do ALL her teeth have this plaque, or just the canine and incisors?
My guess would be her premolars and molars are getting a workout but
the front teeth--the ones that need something to sink into--are not.
Chicken for all its size (good that you are feeding big) may not
offer much in the way of resistance; a skin-on pork shoulder roast
presents more rip and tear (rather than slice and dice) opportunity,
and a nice hair-on lamb or goat leg ought clean them teeth right up.
Feeding fur on rabbit generally scrubs the teeth as well, as can
whole, skin-on fish.

Given the complexity involved in finding hair/fur-on body parts, it
might be easiest at this point to brush the kid's teeth. At least
until you can find an acceptable substitute. FWIW and no they're not
natural, I find my dog's various and sundry Mister Stuffies perform
as well toothbrushes in lieu of fur. Oh, and the joy of towel
shredding also helps clean the teeth.

Are you and your vet sure the issue is plaque and not natural
coloration or some sort or a acquired stain?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12143

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. ADMIN/Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
From: Andrea
2c. Re: Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
From: whitezinfendel23
2d. Re: Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
From: cleavlet
2e. Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
From: Diane Heinicke
2f. Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
From: mandyrose1019

3. Update on pit bull losing hair
From: steph.sorensen

4a. Wretching Dog
From: patrice_quinn
4b. Re: Wretching Dog
From: Nataly A
4c. Re: Wretching Dog
From: patrice_quinn
4d. Re: Wretching Dog
From: Nataly A
4e. Re: Wretching Dog
From: Patrice Quinn
4f. Re: Wretching Dog
From: Sandee Lee
4g. Re: Wretching Dog
From: Giselle
4h. Re: Wretching Dog
From: patrice_quinn

5a. Re: plaque
From: antarpremal

6a. Re: Liquid poo
From: Shannon Hully

7. Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
From: atyler1462@aol.com

8a. Change of appetite? Just Being Picky or Red Flag?
From: mgitaville
8b. Re: Change of appetite? Just Being Picky or Red Flag?
From: Giselle
8c. Re: Change of appetite? Just Being Picky or Red Flag?
From: mgitaville

9a. switching kitten to raw
From: Kristen
9b. Re: switching kitten to raw
From: Giselle

10a. Bonemeal
From: fsaforo2003

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. ADMIN/Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT))

Aggression and other behavior issues are not appropriate subjects for
this list. Please take this topic to RawChat. Subsequent posts to
rawfeeding will be deleted.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mandyrose1019" <tarotwoman@...>
wrote:
>
> My question is about raw chicken bones that are sharp. I
> know sometimes when I've been cutting up a whole chicken for
> my family,
> there are bones that seem very sharp to the point of being able
> to cut
> my hand, but I figured that was because they were being cut with a
> knife/scissors.

I guess if you set your mind to it, you could actually cut a piece
of bone that was sharp enough to cut your hand but the pieces broken
in the dogs mouth are not nearly as sharp as they appear.

Have you actually tried to cut your hand with a bone from your dog's
mouth? You MIGHT be able to if you use enough pressure but in real
life it's just not a problem.

I have been feeding chicken parts every day for 5 years to 2 to 3
dogs each day without one single problem. There are 10,000 other
people on this list just like me with no problems feeding chicken
parts.

None of us would knowingly feed our dogs something that had a good
chance of hurting them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

Yes, bones do break into scary looking pieces, but I assure you the
dog's digestive system is perfectly capable of handling them. Lone
bones might irritate the throat going down, but I think the reason we
find "sharp looking" bone bits on the floor is because the dog looks at
it and says "no thanks."

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mandyrose1019" <tarotwoman@...>
wrote:

> when Travis was finished with his chicken quarter, there was a
> splinter of bone left on the mat that was extremely sharp. Could
> this type of bone splinter actually cause him harm?

Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
Posted by: "whitezinfendel23" whitezinfendel23@yahoo.com whitezinfendel23
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:27 am ((PDT))

Moderator's note: Please trim your posts.

*****************************************

Hi Amanda - This is my concern too. I am just starting out and I am going to start out with fresh meat NEVER FROZEN. I am sure after a while I will feel more comfortable as he heals and give him defrosted meat from the freezer. ....Holly

mandyrose1019 <tarotwoman@comcast.net> wrote: Hi, everyone. I've been lurking here for a couple of months, and this
week I was very excited to start my 3-year-old greyhound, Travis, on
his first raw chicken quarters. He took to it like a natural--I loved
how he kept looking at me like, "Is this real?"

I know, of course, not to feed any bones that are cooked, because they
can splinter. My question is about raw chicken bones that are sharp. I
know sometimes when I've been cutting up a whole chicken for my family,
there are bones that seem very sharp to the point of being able to cut
my hand, but I figured that was because they were being cut with a
knife/scissors. But today when Travis was finished with his chicken
quarter, there was a splinter of bone left on the mat that was
extremely sharp. Could this type of bone splinter actually cause him
harm? Is there something I need to know or do before giving him another
piece of raw chicken? (He chews everything pretty well before it goes
down.)

Thanks!

Amanda Horton

---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
Posted by: "cleavlet" cleavlet@yahoo.com cleavlet
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

Amanda,

I've noticed the same long leg bone splinters, and it does tend to
give one pause! My 15 week old Aussie (16.5 lbs. now) has been eating
chicken leg quarters regularly for about 4-5 weeks. He'll often leave
a splinter, just like you described, but come back for it awhile
later (greedy little devil :-). I watched very closely (and
anxiously) the first couple/few times and was relieved to see him
crunch it up somewhat before downing it.

I think our animals go through a learning curve, and I think we have
to leave room for that to happen. I ask myself: "Why did he leave
that splinter in the first place"? Possible answer: More trouble than
it was worth, i.e. not much of a prize for something that he might
have sensed could be problematic... (Admittedly presumptuous of me).

Suggestion: Trust the dog, but stand guard initially. Or, just pick
up any leftovers without delay.

Cleavon

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
Posted by: "Diane Heinicke" dheinicke@sbcglobal.net dalethah
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:27 am ((PDT))

I have a greyhound, too. He's been doing great on his raw fed diet. The easiest meal for me to feed him is when I take a whole chicken, cut it in half right down the middle, and hand it to him. That's about two pounds - he's about 63 lbs. There are some bones in there that seem sharp, but he's not had a problem. I usually give him a little liver and/or kidney afterwards for dessert.
He gets a whole fish every week or so, and they have sharp fins, etc. I hand him those, too, and he has been just fine.
Diane

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2f. Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
Posted by: "mandyrose1019" tarotwoman@comcast.net mandyrose1019
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:34 pm ((PDT))

Thank you all so much for your responses--I feel so much better now!
I'm so glad I found this list--it's such a great resource for a newbie
like me. I'm looking forward to many long years of healthy living for
Travis, and fun for me--I really enjoy watching him eat now!

Amanda Horton

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. Update on pit bull losing hair
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

Hi all,

I just wanted to update all of you on Scarlet's condition. She
seems to have some outdoor skin allergy of some sort on her belly
that flares up more at night. I think the onset of cooler weather
will help with that.

Regarding her hair loss, it is growing back in!! I fed them whole
chickens (chicken fryers from the grocery store) for a couple more
weeks, and recently started integrating pork shoulder again (because
they REALLY like it!). The small patches where her hair was thin
are growing back in and she is looking nice!

They still take their fish oil caps every day (even though I have to
force feed Lucy hers), and it is showing.

Thanks for all the advice I got a couple of weeks ago when this
problem started. Scarlet is still shedding some, so I don't think
the coat change is complete yet. Since I heard it takes several
months with some dogs, I'll just let time do its work on her.

Thanks again!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Wretching Dog
Posted by: "patrice_quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:29 am ((PDT))

I'm extremely worried and hope someone can help me. Six days ago, one
of my dogs was eating a raw chicken drumstick when she started
wretching and bringing up only white foam. Her abdomen was fully
distended and hard. I gently tried to help her release the air and
she finally did but only after almost 10 minutes of wretching up only
white foam. No food came up. She wouldn't eat for two days after.
Now she is ravenously hungry but can't keep down more than 1/2
teaspoon of baby food turkey given every twenty minutes and even that
sets off this wretching reflex for a short spurt then stops. She
drinks water and pees and she has pooped but I'm worried that she
isn't getting enough in. She's losing weight (she's only ten pounds
to start with). Will this resolve itself and should I give it time?
If I take her to the vet, he's going to scold me for rawfeeding her
and make her get "caught up" on vaccinations. I'm really scared here.
Please, can anyone help me? Thank you, Patrice Quinn

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "Nataly A" rap_squad@yahoo.com rap_squad
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:26 am ((PDT))

hey patrice,

what you're describing can very well be gastric dilation (canine bloat) which can often be deadly. i don't wanna scare you or anything, but this could be serious.
often what the vet does is indeed take out all the air from the stomach, but sometimes it's not enough cause the bowls or stomach is twisted.

i understand your concern about the vets reaction, but rest assure that these things happen to commercial food pets ALOT. so just tell him politely to treat the dog, and leave her nutrition out of it.
Nat.

----- Original Message ----
From: patrice_quinn <patrice@patricequinn.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 5:16:08 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Wretching Dog

____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC

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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "patrice_quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:08 am ((PDT))

Thank you, Nat. I don't think she's twisted as she is peeing and
pooping. She is not expressing pain. But she's had very little to eat
in five days now and this morning she started walking a little oddly.
She's no longer bloated. How long do you think I can keep nursing her
with these small amounts in hopes that her esophagus or stomach will
heal? Is it possible that a bone from the chicken could be lodged and
if it were, wouldn't it have digested by now? Patrice

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "Nataly A" rap_squad@yahoo.com rap_squad
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

hey patrice,

what worries me about what you say is the fact that she can't contain food (and is losing weight). the trauma to the body is great, but it should have passed by now, atleast to the amount that the dog would eat significantly more than 2 spoons of turkey mash.
i am not one to be scared by a fasting pet nor am i a big fan of vets, however, i do think the dog needs a checkup. better safe than sorry.

Nat.

----- Original Message ----
From: patrice_quinn <patrice@patricequinn.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:53:38 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Wretching Dog

____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4e. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "Patrice Quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

Thank you, Nataly. I just called the vet (reluctantly) and have an appt for
next Tuesday unless she significantly worsens. I am still very interested in
anyone's input on this forum as I continue to nurse her through this,
Patrice

-------Original Message-------

From: Nataly A
Date: 10/10/2007 10:28:18 AM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Wretching Dog

hey patrice,

what worries me about what you say is the fact that she can't contain food
(and is losing weight). the trauma to the body is great, but it should have
passed by now, atleast to the amount that the dog would eat significantly
more than 2 spoons of turkey mash.
i am not one to be scared by a fasting pet nor am i a big fan of vets,
however, i do think the dog needs a checkup. better safe than sorry.

Nat.

----- Original Message ----
From: patrice_quinn <patrice@patricequinn.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:53:38 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Wretching Dog

__________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4f. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

I would take her to the vet. Six days is far too long for this to go on. I
wouldn't even tell them what you feed...just give the symptoms and say you
wonder if there is something caught in her throat or something! Make them
look for a cause rather than blaming diet.

Don't worry about the vaccs...if they bring it up, just say no thank you.
Not today. If they would read the vaccine insert it states they are only to
be given to healthy dogs!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "patrice_quinn" <patrice@patricequinn.com>

Messages in this topic (8)
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4g. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:02 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Patrice!
I vote for the vet check, too, with all the stated
precautions.

If she were my pup, I'd offer her plenty of low sodium chicken or beef
broth. I'd make a paste with a couple ounces of broth and some
Slippery Elm Bark Powder (2 tsp.), then mix it with 1-2 cans of broth,
and offer it to her frequently.

"SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb that
soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is
âœused to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis, colitis &
irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect & lubricate mucous
membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of kennel cough &
other types of bronchitis.â
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
You can also get SEBP at health food stors.
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in Â½ ounce meatballs,
for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or,
fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer
plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day.
Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after, gradually
increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often
see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it
soothes the digestive system, and the dogâ™s body will do the same
sometimes even without SEBP."

How is she acting?
Can you check her mouth, soft palate and the back of her tongue?
If there is no underlying disease or illness causing this problem, and
there's nothing 'stuck' causing the vomiting, then the SEBP can help
soothe her digestive system.

TC and let us know how she does!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I would take her to the vet. Six days is far too long for this to
go on. I
> wouldn't even tell them what you feed...just give the symptoms and
say you
> wonder if there is something caught in her throat or something!
Make them
> look for a cause rather than blaming diet.
>
> Don't worry about the vaccs...if they bring it up, just say no thank
you.
> Not today. If they would read the vaccine insert it states they are
only to
> be given to healthy dogs!
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
I'm extremely worried and hope someone can help me. Six days ago, one
of my dogs was eating a raw chicken drumstick when she started
wretching and bringing up only white foam.
<snip>
No food came up. She wouldn't eat for two days after.
Now she is ravenously hungry but can't keep down more than 1/2
teaspoon of baby food turkey given every twenty minutes and even that
sets off this wretching reflex for a short spurt then stops. She
drinks water and pees and she has pooped but I'm worried that she
isn't getting enough in. She's losing weight (she's only ten pounds
to start with). Will this resolve itself and should I give it time?
If I take her to the vet, he's going to scold me for rawfeeding her
and make her get "caught up" on vaccinations. I'm really scared here.
Please, can anyone help me?
Thank you, Patrice Quinn

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4h. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "patrice_quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:34 pm ((PDT))

Thank you, Sandee! I see what you're saying and will take that
approach with the vet. Meanwhile, she vacillates--yesterday seemed
better, today not so good until a few minutes ago when she barked for
the first time since this happened so I'm not as concerned now about a
stuck bone; do you suppose she just badly inflamed her esophagus?
Thank you, Sandee, for being supportive! Patrice

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: plaque
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:31 am ((PDT))

Hi Chris. Jennifer and sasha again.

I realized I didn't answer all you questions.

No health issues, and she is a golden chowmix and whatever else....

She does have one eye that continues to get goopy after 2 rounds of pink eye meds,
although she's been tested for dry eyes etc.

Thanks Chris.
Jen

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Liquid poo
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:28 am ((PDT))

Well, since I know that dogs evolved to eat "high" food I just kept
feeding through the stuff in the fridge, at least until he had a few
more poos to let me see if I figured it was a problem with the food.

He didn't go for 24 hours (no biggie for him) and this morning it was
still very soft but was formed so I'm guessing that he's either
adjusting (he threw up a couple of times after eating this stuff,
but hoovers it back up again and is fine after that, so I'm guessing
it's just another adjustment period for him) or it wasn't the food.
If it *is* the worms, then YAY!! LOL Better out than in. ;-)

Shannon H.

> I forgot to mention that he had hookworms and I've been giving
him
> DE for that.

> Um, yeah.
> I think that mighta done it.
> While it's not impossible that stinky food would set him off, it's
not
> likely.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
Posted by: "atyler1462@aol.com" atyler1462@aol.com atyler121462
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

Last Wednesday, October 3rd a fellow dog person and dear friend, David
Moore, had his 200 year old farm house burn to the ground. Nine dogs died in
the fire. There was nothing David could do. He also lost all of his
possessions.

David has worked tirelessly for nearly 20 years to preserve a rare breed of
sighthound, the Azawakh. This breed is almost extinct with probably only
about 2000 in the world and fewer than 200 in the USA.

He desperately needs help to recover from this tragedy. His home was
insured , but the insurance will just cover the mortgage.

Any financial help is appreciated. Money can be pay paled to his sister
at _blhulsman@alltel.net_ (mailto:blhulsman@alltel.net)

Thanks,

Alison
Moderation Team

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Change of appetite? Just Being Picky or Red Flag?
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

Hello all.... for whatever reason there is just something bugging me
about my bullmastiff's change in appetite recently. I could easily
say it is the warm weather that returned (high 80s) after a brief
cooler week. I could say it is "just because" and be glad since he
needs to slim down a couple of pounds. I could say it is b/c he
turned 3 in June and his metabolism has slowed..... I think you get
where I am going with this.

The thing is something about it bugs me and I believe it is b/c he
has a small purplish spot on his rear hind leg that popped up last
friday that is peculiar. Not a hotspot though that was my first
thought when it was clotted fur. Not really a cyst b/c not raised up
much though does have some fluid to it. My dog has not had skin
issues since going raw nearly 2 years ago so this stuck me as
peculiar.

Anyways, this post is not about his spot on his leg except to say
maybe I am letting this raise a flag about his diet I otherwise would
not....wondering if they are connected and a sign of something else.

My gut tells me this is him being picky lately. He eats, but not
much and walks away from stuff quickly. I put down a rib slab the
other night after his whole chicken was finally finished 3 or 4 days
later from when we started (was only 4.5 lbs) and he was far more
enthusiastic about his favorite meal of rib slabs, but as you know
not much meat there so still only about 1/2 his normal size meal was
eaten.

Sorry for the ramble.... the question in all this is I guess when do
some of you move beyond the "go-to" reasons or stop assuming he is
just being picky? He acts compeltely normal otherwise by the way,
but there is a clear decline in his interest of food lately.
Possible he is just bored with stuff recently?

Thanks for any input.
Marguerita

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Change of appetite? Just Being Picky or Red Flag?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Marguerita!
No clue about the reduced appetite aspects of this,
except to say that it could be related to all the reasons you've
mentioned and that the giant breeds do reach full physical maturity at
about 3 yo. Much later than even large breeds do.

The purplish spot could be a histiocytoma, a benign tumor;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histiocytoma_(dog)
There's a couple pics in the link for comparison.

Maybe he's not bored with his food, but maybe just complacent, and has
learned to self-regulate, since he knows its not a scarce commodity?

^_^

Since the weather is getting cooler, perhaps you could get him
involved in some fun activities to relieve boredom, burn some calories
and pique his appetite?

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello all.... for whatever reason there is just something bugging me
> about my Bull Mastiff's change in appetite recently. I could easily
> say it is the warm weather that returned (high 80s) after a brief
> cooler week. I could say it is "just because" and be glad since he
> needs to slim down a couple of pounds. I could say it is b/c he
> turned 3 in June and his metabolism has slowed..... I think you get
> where I am going with this.
>
> The thing is something about it bugs me and I believe it is b/c he
> has a small purplish spot on his rear hind leg that popped up last
> Friday that is peculiar. Not a hot spot though that was my first
> thought when it was clotted fur. Not really a cyst b/c not raised up
> much though does have some fluid to it. My dog has not had skin
> issues since going raw nearly 2 years ago so this stuck me as
> peculiar.
>
> Anyways, this post is not about his spot on his leg except to say
> maybe I am letting this raise a flag about his diet I otherwise would
> not....wondering if they are connected and a sign of something else.
<snip>
He acts completely normal otherwise by the way,
> but there is a clear decline in his interest of food lately.
> Possible he is just bored with stuff recently?
>
> Thanks for any input.
> Marguerita

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Change of appetite? Just Being Picky or Red Flag?
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:34 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Marguerita!
> No clue about the reduced appetite aspects of this,
> except to say that it could be related to all the reasons you've
> mentioned and that the giant breeds do reach full physical maturity
at
> about 3 yo. Much later than even large breeds do.

***** Generally, this would be the case, but this bullmastiff is very
small for size - growth plates closed around 18 months at the hip.
He only weighs in at 100lbs. and is about 2" shorter to shoulder than
normal. Only state this to say that he matured earlier than most as
a result.
>
> The purplish spot could be a histiocytoma, a benign tumor;
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histiocytoma_(dog)
> There's a couple pics in the link for comparison.
>
******Thanks for the suggestion as it is quite curious....he had one
of these as a puppy, but this isn't the same. It isn't raised at all
like the tumors or cysts normally would be. Spider bite that caused
irritation but no swelling is the best I can come up with now but
area is about the size of a quarter.

> Maybe he's not bored with his food, but maybe just complacent, and
has
> learned to self-regulate, since he knows its not a scarce
commodity?
>
> ^_^
>

*****This is very likely - had him since a pup and rawfed for nearly
2 years of his 3 with me so he doesn't have the same "respect" for
food the rescues did.

> Since the weather is getting cooler, perhaps you could get him
> involved in some fun activities to relieve boredom, burn some
calories
> and pique his appetite?
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>

*****He gets usually 30 minutes of activity in evenings with other
dogs/tennis ball chasing. But perhaps it is time to get longer walks
going again if we can get out of the high 80s. Good thought.

Thanks
Marguerita

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. switching kitten to raw
Posted by: "Kristen" kristengilkinsonrmt@rogers.com kgilkinson
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:33 pm ((PDT))

Hi there,

I'm bringing home a kitten in a couple of weeks. The mom is feral and
had the kittens outside the home of a family that leaves food out for
those feral cats. Mom has now left the kittens behind and I'm
bringing one of them home. The family is feeding a commercial food
and I'll be switching to raw immediately.
My question is this: how do kittens compare to puppies? I have tons
of kitten appropriate food in my freezer, but I want to know what is
best to start. I'd like to use just one type of meat until the
transition is tolerated and then introduce new items. What is best to
start? Chicken or sardines or something else?
Is the ratio for the kitten the same (10-10-80)?
Anything special I need to know?

...and just as a side question: Spleen is an organ right? I usually
feed liver, but I came across a deal I couldn't refuse and bought
spleen yesterday.

I can't wait to see how meal time works out with a dobie pup and
kitten dining together!

Thanks =D
Kristen

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: switching kitten to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kristen!
I'd recommend that you check out these sites, they're
great resources for feeding cats raw;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://rawfedcats.org/
rawfedcats.org

Cats are somewhat different than dogs. Carnivorous, but different

The 80%-10%-10% whole prey model works for a cat, too. Advice is that
a cat should be offered many different proteins right away, lest they
get imprinted and fixated on just one, and refuse anything else. Thats
one of the things that makes cats hard to switch to raw. Kittens are
easier to switch, I understand.

You may have some issues with a feral kitten. Cats are much less
domesticated than dogs. There is even some research that doubts
they're domesticated at all, but developed in a symbiosis with humans.
Cats hunted small rodents, therefor they were tolerated in human
communities for this pest control ability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat
http://www.feralcat.com/taming.html
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/538

Unfortunately, you shouldn't assume that the kitten and pup will get
along right away. A feral kitten will probably not like an unfamiliar
pup anymore than he'll like an unfamiliar human. And, pups/dogs can
not recognize a kitten's/cat's body language cues to 'back off'. and
then, there's the excitement of the chase that a pup can get caught up in.
'Tricia McConnell, author of "The Other End of the Leash" and "For the
Love of a Dog" is an accredited ethologist and animal behaviorist
specializing in aggression in dogs. She also has a very well known
radio show on Wisconsin public radio, "Calling All Pets" on Saturdays.
She answers live calls and emails, and a lot of her callers from all
over the country have Qs about cat problem behavior.
You can listen to her archived shows on the website, and also email or
call her on the show. Check it out.
http://www.wpr.org/pets/

Spleen is indeed an organ, a very blood rich one;
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spleen

HTHs
Giselle

> Hi there,
>
> I'm bringing home a kitten in a couple of weeks. The mom is feral and
> had the kittens outside the home of a family that leaves food out for
> those feral cats.
<snip>
> ...and just as a side question: Spleen is an organ right? I usually
> feed liver, but I came across a deal I couldn't refuse and bought
> spleen yesterday.
>
> I can't wait to see how meal time works out with a dobie pup and
> kitten dining together!
>
> Thanks =D
> Kristen

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Bonemeal
Posted by: "fsaforo2003" fsaforo2003@yahoo.com fsaforo2003
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:34 pm ((PDT))

Hey folks,

I need to look into purchasing some, any good/known "human" grade
bonemeal you recommend?

Thanks

Flo

Messages in this topic (5)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12142

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: WHEN DO YOU CALL A DOG "TOO" THIN?
From: Giselle

2a. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: annartisan
2b. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: annartisan
2c. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: annartisan
2d. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: annartisan
2e. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Nutritional needs during pregnancy
From: borodeauxs

4. Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
From: mandyrose1019

5a. Re: plaque
From: antarpremal

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: WHEN DO YOU CALL A DOG "TOO" THIN?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:28 am ((PDT))

Hi, Nancy!
Oooops!
'Fluffy' is a term I use, and have noticed others using too. To me,
its a southernism, it doesn't refer to coat type or length, it refers
to packin' on the pounds!

'fluffy' = chubby

I have a full coated breed, too. The way I keep track of how Bea's
doing in the 'fluffy' department is to run my hands down her ribs, if
I can feel them but they're covered with a light pad of flesh, and I
can feel the ribs through it, that's right to me. Also, I feel along
the backbone and hip bones, too. Again, I want to feel them, but not
have them really prominent. I run my hands underneath, too, from chest
to belly, there should be a nice, tight 'tuck up', no flab. I don't
know how Wheatens are, but Newfies will tend to develop a loose pad of
fat in the fore chest, too, if they're carrying too much weight. Labs
do, too.

If you are uncomfortable with how your dogs look, add a bit to their
diet. See how you like the way they feel in a week or two. When they
reach a good weight that you are satisfied with, taper off or keep
their meals at an amount that will maintain that weight.

If you are going to feed more, I'd suggest you add a bit of meatymeat
in the evening at first, until they are adapted to larger portions.
Some heart or a handful of gizzards, maybe. After that, you can always
increase the morning meal portion and eliminate the evening 'snack'.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I keep reading on the posts to adjust meals according to how your dog
> looks. What do you do in the case of a "fluffy" dog like a wheaten
> terrier that always looks bigger with the hair then it actually is?
<snip>
Both
> dogs eat in the morning and while they come lie down on the floor in
> the kitchen while we eat dinner or come investigate when I go into the
> kitchen at night, they don't really beg. Their energy level is good,
> too. At the start of the new raw diet they weighed 30 lbs, which is
> already on the low end for a wheaten. Any thoughts?
>
> Nancy
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "annartisan" annartisan@yahoo.com annartisan
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:42 am ((PDT))

I held off on replying to all of the responses to this question until
I had a chance to try out the various suggestions. He still has the
odor, though it's a tad less strong. In the hopes that answering all
the questions put to me might lead to a cure, here goes...

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>

> If you're not giving the pup any supps or no one is slipping
> him other foods as treats,

no supps and there is no way anyone else can be slipping him anything

it may just be his body's reaction to an
> all venison diet.
>
> Put him back on chicken for a week or two, give him a bath in a gentle
> oatmeal or pure castile shampoo, and see if that makes a difference in
> his body odor.

He's back on chicken, and I'll try the shampoo in a few days.

> In what form are you feeding the venison? What kind of parts? With
> bones? What about organs? Is he getting his 3-5% liver?

The venison we've been feeding is, unfortunately, bone and organ-free.
(Meat, muscle and fat.)

> Is there any change in his coat? Texture? Oily, greasy? Dandruffy,
> flaky skin?

His coat seems fine. It does seem less "puppyish" but I figured that
was to be expected as he grows. (He is now five months old)

Thanks for your reply, Giselle

AnnA

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "annartisan" annartisan@yahoo.com annartisan
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:42 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon
<jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
> Mine eat venison and don't have any weird smell. Are you sure there
isn't any chicken in the backyard, somewhere that he has stashed away
somewhere, like a private place, and he's going to it, and rolling in
it? <

He has been burying his chicken quarters the last couple of weeks.
But I haven't seen him "rolling" in it (though there are a couple of
spots in our yard where he could do it unnoticed.)

>I've heard of animals smelling like the food they eat, and my dane
sometimes does, but he has really rolly skin under his lips; we have
to keep it clean after feedings. So he smells like whatever we are
feeding him at the time.<

Our pup is a Boxer, so he has pretty "rolly" skin around his face (and
neck), too. But the objectionable smell also comes from the middle of
his back.

> But if you are feeding venison, he shouldn't smell like chicken:)

Thank you for noticing that BIZARRE aspect of this problem!

AnnA

Messages in this topic (10)
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2c. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "annartisan" annartisan@yahoo.com annartisan
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:42 am ((PDT))

I'd suggest a vet visit; changes in metabolic action aren't
> necessarily bad but vets go to school for a long time to learn to
distinguish
> between health and illness.

Honestly, I've been wanting to see a vet about this smell. But I
can't go to my "old" vet because he pressured me to vaccinate him when
he was very ill. I need a new vet, but my options in this town are
somewhat limited. And I suspect that if I tell a "regular vet" that
my dog is reeking of raw chicken s/he will try to use that as a reason
to quit raw feeding.

AnnA

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "annartisan" annartisan@yahoo.com annartisan
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:42 am ((PDT))

> I'm also thinking he has found something to roll in. Check him close
> and see if the smell is coming from either the side of his face, his
> neck or his shoulers. If so, he's definately rolling. :) :) :)
>

Okay, Bill - I checked him over and the smell emanates from EVERY part
of him, but it IS much stronger around his face and shoulders. I've
moved his meals indoors on a tablecloth so that I can supervise more
closely. I sure hope this solves the problem, because I miss the
physical snuffalupagus stuff that became de rigueur when we quit
kibble and he lost that yucky, "typical", doggie odor.

AnnA

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: Coat has strong, disagreeable odor
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

Here's my experience, I didn't answer before because it could be
completely coincidental, but who knows, right? My newf pup had
pretty dry skin when he started shedding his puppy coat and his new
coat came in a lot denser than I had expected. When I was brushing
him I noticed a funky dog smell in his coat, but I figured he rolled
in something smelly. About a month after the funky smell appeared I
started giving him fish oil for his dry skin (about 6 capsules a day
for a 60lb puppy). After a week his skin was much better and the
funky smell is gone. Don't know if it was the fish oil or not, but
you could try and see if it helps.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "annartisan" <annartisan@...>
wrote:

> his coat developed a strong odor. My daughter calls it a "fishy"
> smell, but my husband and I both think it smells like raw chicken.
> It's really strong... you can smell it on him when you're standing
> over him and he's lying on the floor.

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Nutritional needs during pregnancy
Posted by: "borodeauxs" Borodeauxs@googlemail.com borodeauxs
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:46 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "diannem200400"
<diannem200400@...> wrote:
>
> I have just had a bitch bred and although we do not have
confirmation
> of pregnancy yet, I want to be sure that she is getting everything
she
> needs from the start. Should I be doing anything more or less
than the
> usual formula? I know not to increase the calcium, but is there
> anything else I should be aware of? She is getting additional
fish oil
> to boost her immune system (12000 mg's daily; she is 130 lbs). Is
this
> safe?
>
> You will not be surprised that the vet at the veterinary teaching
> hospital where the insemination was performed asked about her
diet. He
> didn't say anything about raw, but the aftercare instructions
noted
> that she should be put on a high grade commercial diet so that she
gets
> the full array of nutrients she needs!
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Dianne M.
>

Hi Dianne,..We too have a bitch we have bred and she is looking very
pregnant,..as for the commercial,..I would stick with your raw diet
as she will recieve all the nutrients she needs,..this is our 3rd
time we have mated our bitch and was going to be the last try after
2 previous misses,..We can not say the raw changed the
results ,..but I believe so,..they is just too many preservatives
and other nasty stuff in commercial dog food,..
I would continue as normal and increase the amount within the last
few weeks,..our bitch will be 7 weeks this friday and has not been
off her food at all,
compared to previous matings when on commercial,..maybe this is the
bitch asking for other foods,..the bitch knows what is best,..And my
feelings are that she is not off her food as she knows the diet is
right,..hope this has helped a little and best of luck with the pups
Stephen www.Borodeauxs.com

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4. Sharp Raw Chicken Bones?
Posted by: "mandyrose1019" tarotwoman@comcast.net mandyrose1019
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:02 am ((PDT))

Hi, everyone. I've been lurking here for a couple of months, and this
week I was very excited to start my 3-year-old greyhound, Travis, on
his first raw chicken quarters. He took to it like a natural--I loved
how he kept looking at me like, "Is this real?"

I know, of course, not to feed any bones that are cooked, because they
can splinter. My question is about raw chicken bones that are sharp. I
know sometimes when I've been cutting up a whole chicken for my family,
there are bones that seem very sharp to the point of being able to cut
my hand, but I figured that was because they were being cut with a
knife/scissors. But today when Travis was finished with his chicken
quarter, there was a splinter of bone left on the mat that was
extremely sharp. Could this type of bone splinter actually cause him
harm? Is there something I need to know or do before giving him another
piece of raw chicken? (He chews everything pretty well before it goes
down.)

Thanks!

Amanda Horton

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: plaque
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:02 am ((PDT))

Hi Chris.
Yeah, her primary diet is whole chikens. I used to cut them into quartets. Lately I've been
giving them whole and she tends to eat half in a day. I have fed her slabs of pork ribs
often as well. other additions have been turkey legs, (lamb shanks her favorite) and
occassionally ground beef with egg and shell, the egg and shell she gets acouple times a
week. Afew times fish.
Beef and chicken liver are parts of the regular diet. I keep it frozen and give it as treats.

otherwise she's had veal kidney and heart a few times and elk once which she did not like,

That's about it? Suggesstions?

> > She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All
> went well however
> > when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque
> for a gal her age and I
> > should start to brush her teeth every day.
> *****
> Yes, this would be distresssing. Even when my dogs were fed kibble at
> seven months their teeth were mighty white.
>
> What are you feeding her? Has she gotten ample opportunity to work on
> meaty body parts? Any health issues that might be connected,
> medications?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12141

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Websites for raw information & guidelines
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Feeding raw and skin allergies
From: ginny wilken
2b. Re: Feeding raw and skin allergies
From: Sonja
2c. Feeding raw and skin allergies
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

3a. plaque
From: antarpremal
3b. Re: plaque
From: Sandee Lee
3c. Re: plaque
From: Andrea
3d. Re: plaque
From: antarpremal
3e. Re: plaque
From: antarpremal
3f. Re: plaque
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
4b. Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
From: Giselle

5. Update on 7 disabled furkids on RAW
From: T Smith

6.1. Re: New to Raw Feeding
From: spricketysprock

7a. Re: goat tongue not allowed to harvested in all states in USA???
From: Yasuko herron

8.1. Re: new to raw
From: Michael Moore

9a. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: Giselle
9b. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: bel olaÿfffff1o

10a. ADMIN/Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Liquid poo
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: another question on size of food
From: Laurie Swanson

13. Nutritional needs during pregnancy
From: diannem200400

14a. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
From: temy1102

15a. Re: WHEN DO YOU CALL A DOG "TOO" THIN?
From: temy1102

16a. Re: Help! Dog not eating.
From: Giselle

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Websites for raw information & guidelines
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 1:16 pm ((PDT))

Trina, you aren't stuck! You are doing everything correctly by starting out
slow, letting them get adjusted to properly digesting one protein source, at
which time you will begin adding in variety, lots of meat and some organs.
That's perfect! You can't do any better than sticking to prey model,
feeding variety in proteins and body parts. You might feel like you are
stuck and going too slowly because of your setback with the diarrhea, etc.,
but this isn't a race. You will do your dogs no harm by sticking with one
food for a few weeks if necessary.

You are going to learn the best and most accurate info right here by you
taking advantage of the sites regularly recommended and the archives. Read,
read, read! Go through the entire rawfed.com site, all of the rawfeeding
myths, etc......

http://www.kaossiberians.com/old%20kaos%20pages/rawfeeding.htm
http://www.geocities.com/havens_home/feedraw.htm

http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://rawfed.com/
http://www.RawFedDogs.net/
http://www.rawlearning.com/

There are some good articles on this site....
http://mypetcarnivore.com/

There are a ton of websites dedicated to feeding a raw diet, unfortunately
most are based on the BARF diet (like the njboxers site posted
previously)...stay away from them! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>

> Can anyone point me in the direction of some websites that give me some
> bone, meat, food guidelines & information for raw feeding please?
> I need alot of information & would really like some websites I can read
> otherwise, I don't feel I am doing this raw correctly. We seem to be
stuck
> in first gear & I need to get alot more info.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Feeding raw and skin allergies
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 1:41 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 9, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Sonja wrote:

> Hi Jen,
>
> Although we really have no idea at this point if Kodie's allergies
> are seasonal, environmental, food related, caused by vaccinosis,
> caused by overuse of antibiotics, or all of the above. One thing is
> for sure...she's itchy and she used to chew her feet 'til they
> bled. We've had dozens and dozens of trips to the vet to take care
> of symptoms. We've tried 5 vets....three conventional, two
> holistic. I've balked and stopped short of allergy testing and
> shots, I'd rather not go that route unless we're really at the
> point of desperation.
>
> We've tried Benedryl, Atarax, malaseb spray, Pavia pads, OTC
> sprays, gentle shampoos, medicated shampoos, anti fungal shampoos,
> and more ointments than I can remember. If you name a brand of
> kibble, we've probably tried it. I kept the raw diet in my back
> pocket as the one thing to try before going in for the allergy tests.
>
> My dog is pretty messed up, so I didn't see the instant results
> that a lot of other people see. In fact, her paws didn't clear up
> until after 6 MONTHS of feeding strictly raw, and even now they're
> not at 100%. The one thing that did improve in a month's time was
> her breath. She used to be able to kill an angry bull with that
> breath, but it went away. I never thought I'd see the day where
> she's as healthy as she is now, and I know it's because of the
> diet. She's still itchy and we still take measures to keep her from
> chewing her paws, but it's nowhere near the critical state it once
> was.
>
> And to my benefit, feeding raw is easier than kibble + all the
> supplements I had her on.
>
> Sonja

I double-dare you to see a homeopath:) Didn't see that on your list
of "everything". Here's an excellent one: Dr. Jeff Feinman,

www.homevet.com. For further discussion, please address this to Rawchat.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Feeding raw and skin allergies
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

Ginny,

I'd love to take the discussino to Rawchat...I just have to wait until they review and approve my request to join. :-/

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Feeding raw and skin allergies
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:14 pm ((PDT))

I've been some improvement with skin "itchies" since we started raw about 5
months ago. I also purchased an e-collar to interrupt the cycle of itching
and that made a BIG difference. My guy seems to have kind of developed a
habit of licking/itching and didn't seem to mind the collar (i.e., I haven't
seen him trying to scratch in other ways or getting agitated etc...in fact, he
seems more relaxed and sleeps better). When he has flare ups (which still
occur but not as "angry") I've had success with the lemon solution I think I
found on this list (?) with a drop or two of lavendar essential oil added and/or
aloe gel applied directly to the red parts.

Overall I believe the food change made a big difference even though the
allergies necessarily to the food directly.

The lemon solution is: Pour a cup of boiling water over one sliced lemon.
Steep for 24 hours. Strain. Add 1-2 drops lavendar essential oil (my
addition). Apply with cotton ball to affected areas (NOT on open skin though
because it can really sting). Sometimes I apply that AND the aloe gel and
sometimes I alternate. They both seem to give some relief. I also spray the lemon
solution diluted with water from a spray bottle on larger affected areas and
rub it into his skin/coat. He hates the sprayer but seems to enjoy the
solution itself.

Carol

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. plaque
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi Everyone!

This is Jennifer writing about my pup Sasha. Been a while.
She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All went well however
when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque for a gal her age and I
should start to brush her teeth every day.

I was disappointed as this is supposed to be one of the benefits of the diet. I have enough
of a hard time getting my sons teeth brushed and am not too excited about the idea. I
have never had to brush the teeth of other dogs that I have owned and they were fed on
kibble.

Any Ideas? Thanks a bunch for your time and efforts!

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: plaque
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 2:07 pm ((PDT))

What exactly are you feeding, Jennifer?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "antarpremal" <antarpremal@yahoo.com>

This is Jennifer writing about my pup Sasha. Been a while.
She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All went
well however
when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque for a
gal her age and I
should start to brush her teeth every day.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: plaque
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:07 pm ((PDT))

Can you give us an example of what her normal menu looks like? How big
is she? Without hearing the answers I would guess that she needs
larger more difficult meals.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "antarpremal" <antarpremal@...>
wrote:

> when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque
> for a gal her age and I should start to brush her teeth every day.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: plaque
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> What exactly are you feeding, Jennifer?
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "antarpremal" <antarpremal@...>
>
> This is Jennifer writing about my pup Sasha. Been a while.
> She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All went
> well however
> when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque for a
> gal her age and I
> should start to brush her teeth every day.
>
She eats mostly whole chickens
had many pork rib slabs also
sometimes lamb shanks or turkey legs
occassionally lamb steak or ground beef mixed with egg and shell
chicken and beef liver semi regularly
a few times veal heart/kidney
bought a beef roast once and after many times trying with no success gave up and cut it
into pieces
sometimes the chikens have been fed in quarters sometimes whole
sometimes eggs with shell alone
only a few times fish whole and filet both
thats about all I can think of
Shes a golden mix probably some chow in there don't know what else
Thanks , Jen

Messages in this topic (6)
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3e. Re: plaque
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 5:30 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!!!!!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Can you give us an example of what her normal menu looks like? How big
> is she? Without hearing the answers I would guess that she needs
> larger more difficult meals.
>
> Andrea
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "antarpremal" <antarpremal@>
> wrote:
>
> > when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque
> > for a gal her age and I should start to brush her teeth every day.
>
Oh and something I didn't mention she was often getting beef tendon from the pet store
in the earlier chewing stage of puppyhood but not recently
will you also see the re to sandee?

Messages in this topic (6)
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3f. Re: plaque
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 9:12 pm ((PDT))

"antarpremal" <antarpremal@...> wrote:
>
> She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All
went well however
> when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque
for a gal her age and I
> should start to brush her teeth every day.
*****
Yes, this would be distresssing. Even when my dogs were fed kibble at
seven months their teeth were mighty white.

What are you feeding her? Has she gotten ample opportunity to work on
meaty body parts? Any health issues that might be connected,
medications?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 2:03 pm ((PDT))

This is probably off-topic, so send me off to rawchat if need be, mod
squad. I'm late on this thread so if this is already covered, my
apologies. When dogs guard any high-value item (including raw food),
it's a training issue, pure and simple. Either we train them not to do
this, or we end up managing the dogs at every mealtime for the rest of
their lives. Training is probably easier.

Here is what I recall about training dogs not to guard valuable
resources like toys, beds, or food. Give the dog his high-value item
(raw dinner, or prized toy). Take it away, but quickly replace it with
an item of equal or greater value (more raw food, or a prized toy). Do
this until the dog realizes that it's okay for you to take away an item
of high value because you are going to pay him every time. Perhaps
start with a toy, if the food is just too important to mess with at
first.

Once the dog is comfortable with you taking away the high-value item,
you can start to vary the number of seconds between removing a
high-value item and replacing it with another one, so the interval is
unpredictable (not always ten seconds; sometimes three seconds,
sometimes 11 seconds, and when they get good at this, sometimes 46
seconds and sometimes 4).

Also, if they growl and snap but you know they won't bite you, you can
simply take their food away and not give it back until they are polite
about it. I have also used the time out to great advantage in training
out other undesirable behavior.

Carolyn J. Garnaas and Molly Toy Poodle, Who Will Occasionally Growl if
I Give Her a Kiss While She is Babysitting Her Dinner. I Just Scold Her
And Give Her the Kiss Anyway. She's Not Going to Bite Me.

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Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:25 am ((PDT))

Hi, Nancy!
If I could just add a few points to the other responses;

1) This is not about your dog having a 'sweet' personality, its about her
being a dog, and being a wolf. A survival skill is not letting food be taken
away from you; that is resource guarding. If a dog or wolf didn't have that
instinct, they wouldn't survive. Resource guarding can extend to *anything*
valuable to a dog; food, chewies, toys, his sleeping areas, doorways, 'his'
car, 'his' person, etc. It is only problematical when dogs live with people,
we can't allow a dog to resource guard from us.

1) The best way to teach a dog not to resource guard from us, is to teach
him that when we want something he has, it means he gets better things from
us! If we do this enough times, he will look at giving up food, or other
valuable resources as not a scary thing, or at us as rivals for resources,
but as a sign that he may get something better instead.

3) This means NOT taking something away, then giving it back, or even
approaching closer than he is comfortable with. This will only teach him
that you DO want 'his' stuff, and make him anxious when people get close to
'his' stuff. Give him his meal and move away until he is not concerned with
your presence. Sit in a chair, not facing him, nor staring at him. Toss
special yummy treats onto his eating spot, so that all he has to do is stop
eating briefly, eat the treat, and go back to his meal. What the the treats
are don't matter, as long as they are as good or better than what he is
eating. Cheese, 'people food' or bits of raw meat work fine! Over the course
of a week or so, sit closer to him at each meal. Anytime he stops eating,
growls, 'glares', freezes or shows concern about your proximity, you're too
close.

4) Separately from this, its time to teach him "Trade" or "Give". Give him a
chewie or toy, something he likes but isn't wild over. when he takes it,
show him the handful of yummy treats you have in your hand. Tell him "Trade"
in a pleasant tone of voice, and lure his head way from his chewie with the
treats under his nose. AS he is eating the treats in your hand, use your
other hand to pick up the chewie. Give it right back to him, and repeat,
repeat, repeat. As you practice, he will start to drop or leave the
chewie/toy to look happily for his treats. YaY! Gradually increase the value
of the chewie/toy, and ALSO the treats, over a week or more, practicing a
couple times a day.

5) When he is comfortably dropping the chewie/toy on the cue "Trade", and he
is comfortable with you sitting on the floor near him while he eats, and
happily taking the special treats from you, then you can start asking him to
"Trade" his meal for the treats, then giving it back to him. Make sure the
treats are extra special yummy ones!

6) This can work for stuff he picks up that he shouldn't have, too. Once he
has the "Trade" concept down pat, if he has something you don't want him to
have, just say excitedly, Lets go "Trade" something yummy for that, and
watch him fork it over for a bit of treat!
HTHs
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/9/07, Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US) <carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com> wrote:

> This is probably off-topic, so send me off to rawchat if need be, mod
> squad. I'm late on this thread so if this is already covered, my
> apologies. When dogs guard any high-value item (including raw food),
> it's a training issue, pure and simple. Either we train them not to do
> this, or we end up managing the dogs at every mealtime for the rest of
> their lives. Training is probably easier.
> <snip>
>
>

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5. Update on 7 disabled furkids on RAW
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

My senior Lhasa is battling severe skin issues again after starting raw BUT
it's been on going for 11 years. He had just cleared up again so any advice
here on maybe ... geez, I don't even know what to ask for advice on.... he's
on chicken. Bright red skin again, shewing & itching. I gave them a bite
of turkey neck last night but he was red much before that. He gets Ester-C,
vitamin E & Fish Oil as per opthomologist & dermatologist recommendations.
He also is being treated for thyroid & medicated baths twice weekly.

My other senior Lhasa girl has been incredibly over weight (double her
weight) for many years & we've just struggled with her. Including she just
had 11 teeth removed & was on canned food only (1 can a day only). She had
started losing a wee bit of weight but since raw (almost 2 weeks?) she is
losing weight *looking good* & gets 2 chicken legs per day & treats. She is
finally getting some weight of her deformed joints. What I do with the 3
Lhasas (2 ten pounders & one 20 pounder) is cut a thigh/leg piece into 3
parts (if I don't have just drum sticks) & divide it up between them all &
rotate the next feeding so they get the whole piece in 3 different feedings.

The Danes are a whole 'nother story.
Casper is just huge (7 1/2 months & over 140 pounds now of Euro Dane) &
loving the raw bit been sick this past week (NOT from raw!!) so he's had a
belly ache from the meds & recycling the food & some diarrhea (he doesn't
recycle that!). Besides that he is ok.

Louie the middle pup (5 1/2 months old) is really enjoying the chicken, he
gets about 3+ quarters a day & holding his weight (he's a lean Am. Dane)

Whisper (the 4 1/2 month old thin Am. Dane) has been the problem (so to
speak). She had the runny poo the night before her gran mal seizure &
hadn't eaten......she then had normal poo during the seizure.....after that
she stopped eating chicken & we cannot have her not eat...period.... the
seizure could have been a couple things but she's been a special needs pup
since I brought her home & low blood sugar is a huge concern so we offered
her boneless chicken breast & she accepted that) & ground beef (that was ok
too) & a turkey neck (this is over a few days time mind you)....I'd rather
deal with runny poo than a seizure or dead pup. Unfortunately, it is this
important that she eat often. She then ate the beef rib so i found out she
LOVES them; though how she ate it wasn't pleasing! Note: When I fed her
the turkey neck, I held the other end and made her chew it. I know this is
stepping way ahead for her & this diet but 7 of my 9 dogs are special needs
& I think I am having to make some adjustments that others wouldn't even
need consider.

Chip the Dal is a piggie :-) He loves the diet but he's old & it took me a
long time to get the extra 40 pounds off him when he was obese. So, he gets
2 - 3 thigh quarters a day. He is 98 pounds. Suggestions? he seems to be
ok with the weight but sometimes I think he is thin. His spine bone sticks
up a we bit due to bone degeneration & he has a huge abdominal tumor that
takes up space so i also feed him at least twice a day to ensure his belly
gets enough food from that growth taking space. No, he cannot have it
removed. We just work around it, literally :-)

Their poo is much better & this morning the two Danes were ok! perhaps that
one turkey neck was the reason?
I just bought another freezer (it was 530$ on sale & alot of cubic feet)
because last night there was a huge sale & I need to go stock up. 10 pounds
of thighs & legs for 9$. Also turkey necks on sale! I despise shopping but
I don't mind shopping for their food.
Also a friend has offered me another deep freezer that I will pick up in a
day or two. That should stock a bit more meats!

So, is it ok to keep adding a neck to help their poop become more firm.
Remember now, my Danes have never had normal poo....so could the turkey
necks be the right staple in their diet? It was just an off the wall thing
I gave it a try & it worked........

The Lhasas still have a bit of white poo, so more bone than necessary.... I
am trying to find just the drum sticks for them at all feedings since it has
more meat? perhaps another part would be better for the little ones?
Advice?
The do need to eat twice daily.
There's a few other things I am trying to work around.....but this is long
enough. thanks for any advice & hope the positive report helps out anyone
in question just starting out that is newer than me. I suppose if my
handicapped dogs can do this diet, than any dog can!
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

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6.1. Re: New to Raw Feeding
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

> I am new to raw feeding and have been doing lots of reading but
have not made the switch yet. I would greatly appreciate any advice
and knowledge anyone would be willing to share with me on making the
switch and what others feed. Thanks in advance.

I've been feeding raw for 7 or 8 months now with no problems. Here's
my advice:

1. When switching over, do not feed kibble at all as it digests
differently. Start with nothing but chicken for at least 2 weeks. If
your dog eats too fast you can freeze it. Digestive upsets are
normal and should pass. Vomiting bile is normal if your dog is used
to eating kibble throughout the day. Feeding twice a day helps if
this is a problem. Constipation or diarhea are also normal but if
you are feeding large chunks of chicken, the bone/meat content is
perfect to offset this.

2. Feed large chunks of meat, preferably at least as big as your
dog's head. This minimizes the risk of choking or eating too fast.

3. Over time, variety is the most important thing. Gradually
introduce new protein sources. Liver is essential for its nutrient
content, but shouldn't be fed often. Once a week or so is good, the
amount depends on the size of your dog. Stick with chicken only in
the beginning, though.

Those are the basics I can think of. There is a ratio of 90% meat
and 10% organs, 5% of which should be liver. There is also a
guideline of feeding 2-3% of your dog's weight. But I've never paid
any attention to ratios and very few people weigh their dog's food
or consciously think of numbers.

Good luck!

Jess and Toby

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7a. Re: goat tongue not allowed to harvested in all states in USA???
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

>Great and interesting site! Thank You!

Hi. I thought it was interesting too. I was sort of looking for taste info on game meat because I thought that could be used to decide what flavor my dog did not care for andsuch if I compare that to what palette hesitate to eat...

But I am not sure if dog's taste and human tastes can match to describe meats'
flavor.

Did you check the site? Yea,the priceisexpensive anddefinitely not for bulk buys for me but I checked ground shipping can be costing around 29 dollars to VA from TX.So,not bad if you see just shipping fee.

And,for west coasters,they have branch retailer of same name in seattle,other than San Antonio,TX.so,I think if anybody was interested in game meats,then,anybody can get them with not too expensive shipping fee although meat itself is pricy looking.

I am sort of interesting to try game meat too if I had chance too. how dare:-P

I read that wild Boar is quite lean meat than meat of regular pork,so,maybe,for fat sensitive dogs,Wild boar could be another choice instead of Pork.

>All of them would be safe to feed immediately, expensive but safe for dogs!

That was what I suspected but raw rattle snakes for dogs?? lol

if sold for human consumption,then,all raw meat is ok for dogs to eat then.

>Might be ordering some treats myself, once winter gets here, lol.

I tend to do that too when I order game meat. Buffalo ham that i tried was pretty good.

But so far,just browsing because freezer still close to full...Maybe next month or so.

Oh yea,have anybody heard about Goattongue cannot be harvested by law??

Since my dog go nuts about Goat,so,I did search farm of Goat in Maine.so,I was asking shipping fee andavailability of waht I may get regulary when stock got low.

The lady told me that in Maine,no processors are allowed to harvest Goat tongues and she thought that if she asked processors to keep the tongues,she could get for me but no,all processors in Maine are not allowed to get them.

Is it applied to all processors in US or just state of maine??

Curious. The lady could not know why cannot get it by law but let me know about it so, I was curious.

Anybody knows about this?

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

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8.1. Re: new to raw
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

>>I am new to raw feeding and have been doing lots of reading but have not made the switch yet. I would greatly appreciate any advice and knowledge anyone would be willing to share with me on making the switch and what others feed. Thanks in advance.<<

Michelle -- with about 10,000 people on this list, that's a rather general approach. Have you been reading posts? Check the archives, too, for a wealth of information on various aspects of rawfeeding. If you have specific concerns or questions, please ask, though.
Switching: Buy a chicken. Give it to your dog. Or, if a smaller dog, cut chicken into quarters (or smaller). Give to your dog. I'm not being sarcastic, it really is this simple to do.

What I feed my dogs -- various pieces/parts of pork, chicken, turkey, venison, elk, lamb, rabbit, beef heart, various organs.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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9a. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 4:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, bel!
Hmmm, chicken backs and necks are awfully bony as a staple in the
diet. Necks may be a choking risk for dogs of their breeds, if they don't
chew, but swallow them whole.
Never heard of fish meal, is it cooked, dehydrated, processed?
How much of their daily meal is liver?
How much do each of your dogs weigh? How old are they? How active?
Without knowing your dog's weights, I can't really guess, but given their
respective breeds, 12.7 oz a day (I don't 'do' grams) doesn't seem like
enough.
We do recommend that people feed 2-3% of a dog's estimated ideal adult
weight per day, as a starting point. If your dog's are older, not active,
small for their breeds, or easy keepers, then 12.7 oz daily may be enough.
But, if they are pups, young adults of average size, normally active or
performance dogs, this may not be adequate, especially given the amount of
bone you seem to be feeding.

Recreational bones, or wreck bones, are not good for a dog - they wear teeth
down and cause breakage and fractures. You're feeding beef marrow or knuckle
bones, right? Beef bones are generally TOO dense for dogs. They hold up
whole cows, and are harder than a dog's teeth! You want edible bones in
their diet, but they are already getting more than enough of that. Dental,
mental and physical activity can and should be provided by the size, variety
and composition of the whole prey or animal parts in a dog's diet, not just
by bones.

This list supports and promotes a species appropriate whole raw prey model
diet.

We suggest about 80% meat (muscle, skin, fat, connective tissue) - 10%
EDIBLE bone - 10% organ (5% is liver, 5% is 'other')

I'd suggest you add more meat, as in quartered or halved whole chickens,
ditch the wreck bones, and the fasts, add more VARIETY of protein, such as
pork, beef, rabbit or goat and organs, like kidney, spleen, or sweetbreads
into their diet.

Dairy, after a pup has been weane, isn't necessary as dogs become lactose
intolerant.

Have you read any of these archived links and websites?

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

You can copy and print out information that you want to refer to later, or
save it to a file in MS Works, Word, or WordPad on your desktop, if you
want.

Here is a link to a source for whole prey in the UK;

http://www.livefoods.co.uk/
I've read that a few people in the UK use, uh, Londo's, Landy's, maybe
Landywoods? Can someone help my memory out here?

TC and tell us all about your dogs!
Giselle

On 10/9/07, bel ola ¦ÿfffff1o <bel_the@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks again...
>
> I'm feeding 360g of chicken back and necks with chicken liver per meal to
> my dal and pitbull at least 4x/week, fish meal (sardines/yellow fin)
> twice/week and recreational beef bones every Sunday (fasting day) with a cup
> of milk in between (and lots of water)
>
> I would reconsider fasting though.
>
> been in raw feeding for 6 weeks already and my dogs love it...
>
> bel
>
>

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9b. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "bel olaÿfffff1o" bel_the@yahoo.com bel_the
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:10 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks Giselle, I appreciate it...
I am from the Philippines, we have pre-packed whole fish (uncooked) called "fish meal" here. And pre packed (frozen) chicken back and neck with heart and liver called "chicken soup bone".
Charla and Scarlet weighs 18.14kgs (forgive me, we use metric system here). 2% of their body weight should me 360g A pack of "chicken soup bone" (inclusve of heart and liver) is more or less 360g.
Thanks agian.

BEL

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10a. ADMIN/Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 8:13 pm ((PDT))

Um, sorry guys but food aggression is not about diet but rather about
resource guarding and it should not be discussed on rawfeeding but
rather on Rawchat. Please take all related discussion to Rawchat.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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11a. Re: Liquid poo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

"Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, I forgot to mention that he had hookworms and I've been giving
him
> DE for that. Could the liquid poo this morning just be his body
> getting rid of them or something related to that?
*****
Um, yeah.
I think that mighta done it.
While it's not impossible that stinky food would set him off, it's not
likely.
Chris O

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12a. Re: another question on size of food
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi Shawna,

I had the same question in the beginning and got some help
understanding it (thanks Carrie and others)! With small items like a
chicken wing, and anything other than a tiny dog, they will often
just gulp it and could choke. When it's attached to a 1/4 or 1/2 or
whole bird (the best size of meal depends on the dog), they have to
work more to dismantle it and will more naturally figure out the best
way to eat it and break it down into more manageable pieces. And by
the time it's broken down into a smaller piece, they're fuller and
their brain seems more engaged (not just in gulping mode), so they
aren't as stupid about swallowing things that might not fit down the
throat. They seem to be thinking more about what they're eating by
then. Does that make sense? I mean, if I give my dog a bite-size
piece of meat w/bone, he'll probably not really think about what it
is and just take it and swallow/try to swallow it. If he gets
something he has to work at, he starts ripping and tearing and gets a
sense of what it is, and where the bone is located, etc.

Things also usually calm down as they get used to this type of food.
My dog was a real gulper in the beginning. Now, a year into prey
model, he's much smarter. He is starting to leave small bits of bone
now--I don't have to be right on top of grabbing them all the time
anymore.

But, dogs also do often swallow some hunks we'd consider quite big!
My dog swallowed a really big hunk of boneless lamb today and it came
back up for further ripping and tearing (learning! :-)).

Sounds like you are doing ok w/size of food, but you might also try
feeding bigger and see how it goes. It's fun to experiment. You
might notice your dog slows down if you do 1/2 a chicken. If that's
too much for one day, feed a snack the next day, like a piece of
boneless meat or a Kong stuffed w/ground beef (frozen, if you want to
give a further challenge).

HTH (hope that helps!),

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shawna" <Mavides@...> wrote:
> Anyway - I keep hearing people saying that items such as chicken
and
> turkey necks and chicken wings are too small for large dogs due to
> the choking hazaard. What is the difference if a dog is given a
> chicken wing or if he pulls off a chicken wing from a whole
> chicken...isn't the piece that he ends up eating exactly the same?

Messages in this topic (2)
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13. Nutritional needs during pregnancy
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:10 pm ((PDT))

I have just had a bitch bred and although we do not have confirmation
of pregnancy yet, I want to be sure that she is getting everything she
needs from the start. Should I be doing anything more or less than the
usual formula? I know not to increase the calcium, but is there
anything else I should be aware of? She is getting additional fish oil
to boost her immune system (12000 mg's daily; she is 130 lbs). Is this
safe?

You will not be surprised that the vet at the veterinary teaching
hospital where the insemination was performed asked about her diet. He
didn't say anything about raw, but the aftercare instructions noted
that she should be put on a high grade commercial diet so that she gets
the full array of nutrients she needs!

Thanks for any advice.

Dianne M.

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14a. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:11 pm ((PDT))

I would definitely not want to crush beef ribs for feeding. The small
pieces scare me to death. If my dog needed soft food, I'd probably
grind it. Beef ribs, especially in a whole slab, make an awesome
chewy meal. None of my dogs will actually eat the bones, but they'll
work on them for a long time, getting the meat off and nibbling the
ends of the naked bones. They all eat pork ribs though, like it's a
loaf of bread.

-Tammy

Messages in this topic (7)
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15a. Re: WHEN DO YOU CALL A DOG "TOO" THIN?
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:11 pm ((PDT))

My rule of thumb is that if I rub their sides (like when we're playing
and I just grab Grover and rub her up and down making howl sounds) and
can feel the ribs, that's fine. As long as I can't make a drumming
sound by running a stick down them like a fence. I don't like to be
able to feel her hip bones however, and I didn't know that there were
breeds that you're SUPPOSED to feel hip bones on. Also, a couple back
bones are okay to feel since the backs arch a little (at least on
Dobes), but more than 1 or 2 is too much.

Also, it's important to remember that age has a lot to do with it.
During the "teenage" years I just assume they're all gonna be gawky
and leggy and skinny no matter how much they eat. Now that Grover is
almost 2, she's become much meatier and heavier although still with
the right amount of fat.

Another also, Grover just kind of goes up and down a pound or so all
the time. Some days she's a lean machine and some days she's
downright paunchy. But I think it all goes to the raw feeding mantra
"balance over time."

-Tammy and Grover who is offended that I called her paunchy.

Messages in this topic (4)
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16a. Re: Help! Dog not eating.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 11:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sibyl!
I have a few suggestions.
1) offer her some low sodium chicken or beef broth, as often as she
wants it. This will tide her over until she feels like solid food, and
may help her feel hungry. You can offer it right out of the can, or
lukewarm.

2) Offer her some tripe. Mix some with a little ground chicken or turkey.

3) Mix a little Slippery Elm Bark Powder into her broth, or with the
tripe, to soothe her digestive system.
HTHs
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> OK, Trinity, my ESS, is not eating. She is raw fed, loves to eat but
> I think she got a bit of motion sickness from our long drive home
> last night (8+hours in the car).
<snip>
> Any suggestions? (hope this post is OK for this group, if not please
> direct me to a raw fed group that may be able to help).
>
> -Sibyl-
> Trinity & Titan thank you too!

Messages in this topic (6)
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