[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12144

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bonemeal
From: Andrea

2a. Re: Wretching Dog
From: T Smith
2b. Re: Wretching Dog
From: patrice_quinn
2c. Re: Wretching Dog
From: patrice_quinn

3a. Questions about Fish
From: ncrnrgrl
3b. Re: Questions about Fish
From: marblekallie
3c. Re: Questions about Fish
From: costrowski75

4a. Snowy UPDATE on bleeding gums...
From: shefy7
4b. Re: Snowy UPDATE on bleeding gums...
From: katkellm

5a. Re: Nutritional needs during pregnancy
From: diannem200400

6a. Fish?
From: angela182548
6b. Re: Fish?
From: katkellm
6c. Re: Fish?
From: Dawn Crosier

7a. Re: switching kitten to raw
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

8a. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
From: cypressbunny
8b. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
From: cypressbunny

9. flea-bite reaction / fur loss
From: linoleum5017

10a. My dog has a chicken allergy.
From: m.thompson74
10b. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
From: carnesbill
10c. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
From: Jaala
10d. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
From: Nataly A

11a. Cow Lungs?
From: Virginia Snider
11b. Re: Cow Lungs?
From: costrowski75

12. duke needs to brush his teeth.
From: nital1066

13a. Re: plaque
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: Bonemeal
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

There's no need to add bonemeal to a raw diet. Just offer edible bones
covered with meat and you'll be fine.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "fsaforo2003" <fsaforo2003@...>
wrote:

> I need to look into purchasing some, any good/known "human" grade
> bonemeal you recommend?

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

Patrice,
I don't know what breed but small breeds can get gastric upset & bloat as
well as megasophagus....
There's alot of things to be concerned about & perhaps it is nothing to do
with a bone but rather another issue.
depending on the breed, there can be several things to watch for.
As far as your vet 'scolding' you? It's your dogs & you are paying them to
care for it's needs, ALSO you are an ADULT. :-)
If they don't like that, I am sure another vet will happily treat your pet
without harassment.
I do not believe vets should preach food.......JMO
Take Care
Trina

On 10/10/07, patrice_quinn <patrice@patricequinn.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Sandee! I see what you're saying and will take that
> approach with the vet. Meanwhile, she vacillates--yesterday seemed
> better, today not so good until a few minutes ago when she barked for
> the first time since this happened so I'm not as concerned now about a
> stuck bone; do you suppose she just badly inflamed her esophagus?
> Thank you, Sandee, for being supportive! Patrice
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "patrice_quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, Giselle! I picked up the SEBP today and will start her on it
right away. Thank you for giving me some guidelines to use
in "dosing" her. You asked how she is acting--she's been up and down,
sometimes seeming almost normal, then seeming uncomfortable and doing
the "wretching" thing whether or not I've just given her a bit of food
or drink. This morning she seemed uncomfortable and listless.
However, this afternoon the doorbell rang and, for the first time in
six days, she started barking and since that moment, she has seemed a
little brighter than she has since this all started. I did check her
mouth and throat and am sure nothing's there. Until she barked today,
I was concerned a bone could be lodged between her stomach and
esophagus but I'm not so worried about that now. I'm hoping it's all
uphill from here and so appreciate your support! Patrice

Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "patrice_quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi Trina, my dogs are all mini-dachshunds. The one in question is
Sadie, she's 14 and weighs about 10 lbs. Can you tell me what
megasophagus is? Thanks, Patrice

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Questions about Fish
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

I'm new-ish to raw, would like to know a little more about feeding fish
to my large dogs (2 GSDs).

I have for many years used canned sardines as a reward when tracking my
dogs, but have read that you guys feed your dog a whole fish from time
to time. And I read something about freezing the fish for a few days
prior to feeding - but I didn't see why? and what kind of fish? Is this
mainly for the benefit of Omega 3s?

If the general rule is feeding meaty bones as big (roughly) as their
heads, is this the exception to that?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Jenny C.

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Questions about Fish
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi:

It is the salmon from the Pacific Northwest which can pose a problem
if not frozen before feeding. Here is a link to an article about it:
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/salmon.asp

Salmon from other areas or, a cheaper alternative, their heads and
frames and oily fish such as mackrel and whiting are good choices, but
not the only choices. Fish high in Omega 3 is the aim. No need to do
anything to the fish, just feed.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

> And I read something about freezing the fish for a few days
> prior to feeding - but I didn't see why? and what kind of fish?

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Questions about Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:07 pm ((PDT))

"ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
And I read something about freezing the fish for a few days
> prior to feeding - but I didn't see why? and what kind of fish?
*****
Freezing will kill parasites. This is recommended when looking to
feed wild salmon (also trout and steelhead) from the Pacific
Northwest, and in fact all wild game can be frozen first if there is
concern about parasites. Freezing will do squat to accumulated
toxins though, so in addition to sussing out the parasite situation,
you should also ask about agricultural and industrial run off.

Is this
> mainly for the benefit of Omega 3s?
*****
Fish with zipola Omega 3 can still be a good way to add high quality
animal protein variety to the menu. Fish WITH Omega 3 is doubly
beneficial.

> If the general rule is feeding meaty bones as big (roughly) as
their
> heads, is this the exception to that?
*****
"Bigger than their heads" is used as a reference to help people feed
more complicated food. In most cases, a whole fish is indeed a
complicated food regardless of size. Although whole sardines for my
retrievers are hardly more than a blink. Not as efficient as a seal,
but darned close.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Snowy UPDATE on bleeding gums...
Posted by: "shefy7" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

First I'd like to thank everyone who read and/or responded to my
post. Our vet visit today was great. Snowy didn't growl or show his
teeth to the vet once, when he usually does. Of course he got lots
of yummy fish treats.

It turns out he does have GINGIVITIS. He's only 1.5 years old. His
vet was surprised to see his teeth so clean and him so young and
healthy. But she said the bacteria is under the gums where the bully
sticks and bones and meat won't get too...

She said I could put him on antibiotics and do mouth rinses and
brushing, but that would take a long time. She recommended to put
him under anasthesia and do the ultrasonic tooth/gum cleaning. I
told her I'm a bit against that since his condition isn't that
severe. She said go ahead and try everything else first, but if it
keeps coming back we should try the deep cleaning.

Now I've always been a bit hesitant to try the real animal feeding
thing. I mean the bones with the meat on it (You'll have to excuse
me, I'm vegetarian). I'm always reading posts like oh he swallowed a
whole this or that or it splintered bla bla bla.

I would like to give Snowy a bone with meat on it, but I need a huge
piece he can chew on and I can take away after he's had his fill.
I'll have to take it away with one of those meta picker upper things
since he'll probably protect it from me. Any recommendations on
which animal/bone I should feed and is it supposed to be frozen?

Thanks in advance!

I've been putting coconut oil on his mouth twice a day and he's
getting better. But his gums are still a bit red and inflammed, no
more bleeding though...Oh and any ideas on what to do about the
gingivitis? Should I put him on antibiotics to kill the bacteria
under the gums or does anyone know any alternative meds?

Shefy and Snowy

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Snowy UPDATE on bleeding gums...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:41 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "shefy7" <shefy7@...> wrote:
> Now I've always been a bit hesitant to try the real animal feeding
> thing. I mean the bones with the meat on it (You'll have to excuse
> me, I'm vegetarian). I'm always reading posts like oh he swallowed a
> whole this or that or it splintered bla bla bla.

Hi Shefy,
The real animal feeding thing, a hunk of meat with a piece of bone
hidden under the meat somewheres, is necessary to insure all the
dental benefits that a raw diet should offer. I was a vegan when i
started raw feeding, but you have to put aside what you think is best
for you and focus on what is best for your dog. People here usually
only post if they have a problem. No one posts and says how their dog
ate yet another meal with no problems. So if you think that choking
or splintering bones, blah blah blah, are the norm, you are basing
your feelings on a handful of posts in comparison with the almost
10,000 people on the list. I'm sorry, but i don't remember what size
Snowy is, but chicken quarters, or a half or a whole chicken is always
a good starting place. Pork ribs are good food, too--a four star
rating by my 3. You can usually find bone in pork roasts on sale.
Lamb breasts are also a 2 paws up around here. There is no need to
feed any of the food frozen. If dogs/wolves couldn't eat bones safely/
successfully, they would have gone the way of the dinosaurs. I would
also like to suggest that if you haven't already done so, you might
want to join Rawchat and ask for help about resource guarding, the
thing that makes Snowy not want to relinquish his meal to you. KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Nutritional needs during pregnancy
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:06 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the reply, Stephen. I hope your girl has a successful rest
of her pregnancy and whelping! I'd love to hear about your litter!

Dianne M.

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "borodeauxs" <Borodeauxs@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "diannem200400"

> Hi Dianne,..We too have a bitch we have bred and she is looking very
> pregnant,..as for the commercial,..I would stick with your raw diet

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Fish?
Posted by: "angela182548" angela182548@yahoo.com angela182548
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi guys ~ I am new to raw and have been doing it now for the past 5
days. On friday I lost the LOVE of my life.... my 7yr old Staff.
Terrier to cancer. I took him in for sugery on his ears and the Dr.
found a 3lb mass in his abdomen spleen... when he went in he removed
his spleen and found cancer in his liver as well.(I saw pics) He
gave
him a few days to live....so I made the most unselfish decision of
my
life..:-(
It has been tough..but I have 3 other babies that I need to take
care
of and seeing the pics of his insides makes me see where years of
vaccinations, antibiotics, steroids for ear infections, commercial
dog
food, (even the best foods are garbage) took thier toll. I wish I
knew
then.......nevermind.... I just miss my guy.

I must admit, I am a bit nervous about raw but I am going for it.
Tonight I gave them each a piece of fish (talapia) ...then I went
online and started to do some research on dogs and raw fish and
found
lots of different opinions. I was hoping someone could let me know
if
fish is ok...

Thank you, Angela

Messages in this topic (22)
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6b. Re: Fish?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angela182548" <angela182548@...>
wrote:
I lost the LOVE of my life.... my 7yr old Staff.
> Terrier to cancer.

Hi Angela,
I am so very sorry to read about your beloved dog. It always seems to
me that grief is such a high price to have to pay for loving our best
friends.

>I was hoping someone could let me know if
> fish is ok...

Fish is ok to feed, as in its good, safe food, but it is not normally
the recommended first protein choice. I would think that one of the
reasons for this is that lots of dogs aren't crazy about fish. I
don't know what others will say, but i think i would switch over to
chicken. You didn't mention the size of your other dogs, but chicken
breasts and quarters are good to get ya goin type meals. You want to
feed 2-3% of your dog's ideal body weight per day. Remembering that
not every meal has to be picture perfect, overtime, you should try to
feed 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organs. Normally,
organs should not be fed for at least a week and it helps the dog to
adjust to his new food if you stick to one meat for about a week
before you introduce another. KathyM who learned this quote from Maya
Angelou on this list "I did then what I knew then, when i new better,
i did better."

Messages in this topic (22)
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6c. Re: Fish?
Posted by: "Dawn Crosier" dlcrosier@sbcglobal.net dlc110161
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

HI Angela -

I'm so sorry for your loss! That's really tough!

I firmly believe that you are doing the best thing for all your babies.

Fish is good! Meat is good! Bones are good! Kibble is bad! For right now ~
variety is bad. When switching as I understand it you need to get the
digestive system working correctly. Feeding raw food without bone can cause
loose stools, so feed your babies with bone in. The bone helps firm up the
stools. Cooked is bad since it changes the structure of the bone and creates
an indigestible bone.

Hang in there and know that you have a huge group sitting here ready to
help!

Dawn

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Messages in this topic (22)
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7a. Re: switching kitten to raw
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kristen,

I'd start with chicken, but that's just me, and yes, the ratio's the same.
They tell me cats like variety and don't need to have awhile to settle into one
meat before adding another, but I think I stayed with chicken about 2 weeks
and had them eating chicken neck bones when starting mine, before offering
something else--which was probably whole fish. My 3 love beef stew and beef
heart and tonguetongue, also pork chunks, pieces of lamb, frog legs--rabbit is a
real treat. I've never found spleen but the eat chicken and beef liver and
lamb kidney heartily.

You MAY have to feed your kids separately. I've always had to feed my 3 cats
separately or they just want to run around and try to steal from each other,
instead of eating. :)

Lynda

In a message dated 10/10/2007 6:18:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, "Kristen"
writes:

Chicken or sardines or something else?
Is the ratio for the kitten the same (10-10-80)?
Anything special I need to know?

...and just as a side question: Spleen is an organ right? I usually
feed liver, but I came across a deal I couldn't refuse and bought
spleen yesterday.

I can't wait to see how meal time works out with a dobie pup and
kitten dining together!

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, atyler1462@... wrote:
>
> David has worked tirelessly for nearly 20 years to preserve a rare
breed of
> sighthound, the Azawakh.
> Any financial help is appreciated.

*** Besides the horror of losing one's home, it would be a tragedy to
lose this already too rare breed. I've sent money.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, atyler1462@... wrote:
>
> David has worked tirelessly for nearly 20 years to preserve a rare
breed of
> sighthound, the Azawakh.
> Any financial help is appreciated.

*** Besides the horror of losing one's home, it would be a tragedy to
lose this already too rare breed. I've sent money.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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9. flea-bite reaction / fur loss
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

Hi, everyone,

The results are in! BoJ is growing some new fuzz, praise God. Just
in time for the cold weather we're getting, too. Not only is he
growing fur back, the fur he still had feels good, again - nice and
soft. Thank you all who sent wisdom about his fur loss likely being a
flea-bite allergy, and not the rawfeeding diet, as the vet and my
friends tried to convince me. Turns out he just needed to ditch those
unwelcome muncherinos. Soft fur and renewed energy are welcome
results. And may the frost come quickly, to freeze those little
buggers solid!

Now if I could only find a vet that supports rawfeeding.....might be
too much to hope for all in one week.

Lynne

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. My dog has a chicken allergy.
Posted by: "m.thompson74" m.thompson74@yahoo.com m.thompson74
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

++++++Mod note: please sign all emails. ++++++++++++

Hi, I'm new to raw food. I'm reading that chicken would be best to
start out with. My problem is that one of my dogs is allergic to
chicken. Is it possible that he may be allergic just to the kibble
form and he may do just fine with raw? Has anyone else had this
issue?

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "m.thompson74" <m.thompson74@...>
wrote:
>
> Is it possible that he may be allergic just to the kibble
> form and he may do just fine with raw?

Not only is it possible, its probable.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
Posted by: "Jaala" vaughanjaala@aol.com central_tx_angel04
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:31 pm ((PDT))

Welcome :)
Kibble is ALOT different than raw. I would give it a try. Let us know
how it goes!
~~Jaala

Messages in this topic (4)
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10d. Re: My dog has a chicken allergy.
Posted by: "Nataly A" rap_squad@yahoo.com rap_squad
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:35 pm ((PDT))

Hey there,

Dog's proclaimed allergy to chicken is usually false, and is cause by other things in commercial food such as different grains (i.e corn, peanuts etc). some dogs are just plain allergic to the pet food. saying that a dog is allergic to chicken when he is fed on comm. food is simply idiotic cause there is no actual chicken in the foods - it used to be a part of a chicken (and usually not a very good part), but then it went through so many chemical changes that it should be called something else.
so don't be so sure your dog is allergic, switch to raw food, let him finish the detox and then judge for yourself.

Nat.

----- Original Message ----
From: m.thompson74 <m.thompson74@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 6:12:13 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] My dog has a chicken allergy.

Hi, I'm new to raw food. I'm reading that chicken would be best to
start out with. My problem is that one of my dogs is allergic to
chicken. Is it possible that he may be allergic just to the kibble
form and he may do just fine with raw? Has anyone else had this
issue?

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11a. Cow Lungs?
Posted by: "Virginia Snider" vsnider@cogeco.ca rawbglass
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

To update, Pug is doing well with the dehydrated smoked turkey although last
week he was given a commercial dog treat and broke out in hives..poor guy.

Cow lungs - organ or meat? Any reason not to feed him this? He likes cow
hearts.

Thanks,

Virginia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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11b. Re: Cow Lungs?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:21 pm ((PDT))

"Virginia Snider" <vsnider@...> wrote:
>> Cow lungs - organ or meat? Any reason not to feed him this? He
likes cow
> hearts.
*****
Well, they're organs and they're plenty icky and squishy, but when I've
fed them I don't reall think of them as organs. But they're not hardly
like flesh either. They are, without fanfare, lungs. They are likely
to produce loose stools if feed immoderately.

My dogs like dehydrated lungs and although I never asked if they
actually ENJOY eating fresh lung, they certainly have never
complained. Cutting lungs is sort of like cutting a foam rubber
pillow. It is not a particularly productive experience. I've found
that scissors work better than a knife.
Chris O

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12. duke needs to brush his teeth.
Posted by: "nital1066" nital1066@hotmail.com nital1066
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

i've been rawfeeding for about a year now, and duke's canines are
slowly getting more and more tarter. the rest of his teeth look ok,
but i did notice the tiny little crevices don't look that clean. what
can i feed him to help clean those teeth? lamb necks, lamb breasts,
beef ribs, pigs feet, pork shoulders are all already part of the menu
rotation. i have not been successful thus far in procuring entire
cow's feet/legs. if i really had to, i do have access to pigs heads,
but i'm rather skeeved out by them, and i'd definately have to wait
until my husband goes out of town before i could pull those out of the
freezer. ;)

duke is a 65 lb lab/dane mix with a bottomless tummy who scarfs down
food as fast as possible. he really only needs a little over one
pound of food a day, but he scarfs that down in no time. what i've
been doing lately is to give him a BIG meal occasionally, followed by
a couple days of "snack sized" meals. however, big and even frozen
haven't slowed him down too much, and i'm reluctant to feed frozen too
often, he gets ice-cream headaches afterwards and flops around on the
group, pawing at his head and rubbing his head against the carpet.

any advice would be much appreciated.
thanks
anita

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13a. Re: plaque
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT))

"antarpremal" <antarpremal@...> wrote:
> Yeah, her primary diet is whole chikens. I used to cut them into
quartets. Lately I've been
> giving them whole and she tends to eat half in a day. I have fed
her slabs of pork ribs
> often as well. other additions have been turkey legs, (lamb shanks
her favorite) and
> occassionally ground beef with egg and shell, the egg and shell she
gets acouple times a
> week. Afew times fish.
*****
Do ALL her teeth have this plaque, or just the canine and incisors?
My guess would be her premolars and molars are getting a workout but
the front teeth--the ones that need something to sink into--are not.
Chicken for all its size (good that you are feeding big) may not
offer much in the way of resistance; a skin-on pork shoulder roast
presents more rip and tear (rather than slice and dice) opportunity,
and a nice hair-on lamb or goat leg ought clean them teeth right up.
Feeding fur on rabbit generally scrubs the teeth as well, as can
whole, skin-on fish.

Given the complexity involved in finding hair/fur-on body parts, it
might be easiest at this point to brush the kid's teeth. At least
until you can find an acceptable substitute. FWIW and no they're not
natural, I find my dog's various and sundry Mister Stuffies perform
as well toothbrushes in lieu of fur. Oh, and the joy of towel
shredding also helps clean the teeth.

Are you and your vet sure the issue is plaque and not natural
coloration or some sort or a acquired stain?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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