[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12141

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Websites for raw information & guidelines
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Feeding raw and skin allergies
From: ginny wilken
2b. Re: Feeding raw and skin allergies
From: Sonja
2c. Feeding raw and skin allergies
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

3a. plaque
From: antarpremal
3b. Re: plaque
From: Sandee Lee
3c. Re: plaque
From: Andrea
3d. Re: plaque
From: antarpremal
3e. Re: plaque
From: antarpremal
3f. Re: plaque
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
4b. Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
From: Giselle

5. Update on 7 disabled furkids on RAW
From: T Smith

6.1. Re: New to Raw Feeding
From: spricketysprock

7a. Re: goat tongue not allowed to harvested in all states in USA???
From: Yasuko herron

8.1. Re: new to raw
From: Michael Moore

9a. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: Giselle
9b. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
From: bel olaÿfffff1o

10a. ADMIN/Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Liquid poo
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: another question on size of food
From: Laurie Swanson

13. Nutritional needs during pregnancy
From: diannem200400

14a. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
From: temy1102

15a. Re: WHEN DO YOU CALL A DOG "TOO" THIN?
From: temy1102

16a. Re: Help! Dog not eating.
From: Giselle

Messages
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1a. Re: Websites for raw information & guidelines
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 1:16 pm ((PDT))

Trina, you aren't stuck! You are doing everything correctly by starting out
slow, letting them get adjusted to properly digesting one protein source, at
which time you will begin adding in variety, lots of meat and some organs.
That's perfect! You can't do any better than sticking to prey model,
feeding variety in proteins and body parts. You might feel like you are
stuck and going too slowly because of your setback with the diarrhea, etc.,
but this isn't a race. You will do your dogs no harm by sticking with one
food for a few weeks if necessary.

You are going to learn the best and most accurate info right here by you
taking advantage of the sites regularly recommended and the archives. Read,
read, read! Go through the entire rawfed.com site, all of the rawfeeding
myths, etc......

http://www.kaossiberians.com/old%20kaos%20pages/rawfeeding.htm
http://www.geocities.com/havens_home/feedraw.htm

http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://rawfed.com/
http://www.RawFedDogs.net/
http://www.rawlearning.com/

There are some good articles on this site....
http://mypetcarnivore.com/

There are a ton of websites dedicated to feeding a raw diet, unfortunately
most are based on the BARF diet (like the njboxers site posted
previously)...stay away from them! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>

> Can anyone point me in the direction of some websites that give me some
> bone, meat, food guidelines & information for raw feeding please?
> I need alot of information & would really like some websites I can read
> otherwise, I don't feel I am doing this raw correctly. We seem to be
stuck
> in first gear & I need to get alot more info.

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Feeding raw and skin allergies
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 1:41 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 9, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Sonja wrote:

> Hi Jen,
>
> Although we really have no idea at this point if Kodie's allergies
> are seasonal, environmental, food related, caused by vaccinosis,
> caused by overuse of antibiotics, or all of the above. One thing is
> for sure...she's itchy and she used to chew her feet 'til they
> bled. We've had dozens and dozens of trips to the vet to take care
> of symptoms. We've tried 5 vets....three conventional, two
> holistic. I've balked and stopped short of allergy testing and
> shots, I'd rather not go that route unless we're really at the
> point of desperation.
>
> We've tried Benedryl, Atarax, malaseb spray, Pavia pads, OTC
> sprays, gentle shampoos, medicated shampoos, anti fungal shampoos,
> and more ointments than I can remember. If you name a brand of
> kibble, we've probably tried it. I kept the raw diet in my back
> pocket as the one thing to try before going in for the allergy tests.
>
> My dog is pretty messed up, so I didn't see the instant results
> that a lot of other people see. In fact, her paws didn't clear up
> until after 6 MONTHS of feeding strictly raw, and even now they're
> not at 100%. The one thing that did improve in a month's time was
> her breath. She used to be able to kill an angry bull with that
> breath, but it went away. I never thought I'd see the day where
> she's as healthy as she is now, and I know it's because of the
> diet. She's still itchy and we still take measures to keep her from
> chewing her paws, but it's nowhere near the critical state it once
> was.
>
> And to my benefit, feeding raw is easier than kibble + all the
> supplements I had her on.
>
> Sonja

I double-dare you to see a homeopath:) Didn't see that on your list
of "everything". Here's an excellent one: Dr. Jeff Feinman,

www.homevet.com. For further discussion, please address this to Rawchat.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: Feeding raw and skin allergies
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

Ginny,

I'd love to take the discussino to Rawchat...I just have to wait until they review and approve my request to join. :-/

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Feeding raw and skin allergies
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:14 pm ((PDT))

I've been some improvement with skin "itchies" since we started raw about 5
months ago. I also purchased an e-collar to interrupt the cycle of itching
and that made a BIG difference. My guy seems to have kind of developed a
habit of licking/itching and didn't seem to mind the collar (i.e., I haven't
seen him trying to scratch in other ways or getting agitated etc...in fact, he
seems more relaxed and sleeps better). When he has flare ups (which still
occur but not as "angry") I've had success with the lemon solution I think I
found on this list (?) with a drop or two of lavendar essential oil added and/or
aloe gel applied directly to the red parts.

Overall I believe the food change made a big difference even though the
allergies necessarily to the food directly.

The lemon solution is: Pour a cup of boiling water over one sliced lemon.
Steep for 24 hours. Strain. Add 1-2 drops lavendar essential oil (my
addition). Apply with cotton ball to affected areas (NOT on open skin though
because it can really sting). Sometimes I apply that AND the aloe gel and
sometimes I alternate. They both seem to give some relief. I also spray the lemon
solution diluted with water from a spray bottle on larger affected areas and
rub it into his skin/coat. He hates the sprayer but seems to enjoy the
solution itself.

Carol

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. plaque
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi Everyone!

This is Jennifer writing about my pup Sasha. Been a while.
She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All went well however
when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque for a gal her age and I
should start to brush her teeth every day.

I was disappointed as this is supposed to be one of the benefits of the diet. I have enough
of a hard time getting my sons teeth brushed and am not too excited about the idea. I
have never had to brush the teeth of other dogs that I have owned and they were fed on
kibble.

Any Ideas? Thanks a bunch for your time and efforts!

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: plaque
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 2:07 pm ((PDT))

What exactly are you feeding, Jennifer?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "antarpremal" <antarpremal@yahoo.com>

This is Jennifer writing about my pup Sasha. Been a while.
She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All went
well however
when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque for a
gal her age and I
should start to brush her teeth every day.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: plaque
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:07 pm ((PDT))

Can you give us an example of what her normal menu looks like? How big
is she? Without hearing the answers I would guess that she needs
larger more difficult meals.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "antarpremal" <antarpremal@...>
wrote:

> when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque
> for a gal her age and I should start to brush her teeth every day.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: plaque
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> What exactly are you feeding, Jennifer?
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "antarpremal" <antarpremal@...>
>
> This is Jennifer writing about my pup Sasha. Been a while.
> She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All went
> well however
> when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque for a
> gal her age and I
> should start to brush her teeth every day.
>
She eats mostly whole chickens
had many pork rib slabs also
sometimes lamb shanks or turkey legs
occassionally lamb steak or ground beef mixed with egg and shell
chicken and beef liver semi regularly
a few times veal heart/kidney
bought a beef roast once and after many times trying with no success gave up and cut it
into pieces
sometimes the chikens have been fed in quarters sometimes whole
sometimes eggs with shell alone
only a few times fish whole and filet both
thats about all I can think of
Shes a golden mix probably some chow in there don't know what else
Thanks , Jen

Messages in this topic (6)
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3e. Re: plaque
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 5:30 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!!!!!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Can you give us an example of what her normal menu looks like? How big
> is she? Without hearing the answers I would guess that she needs
> larger more difficult meals.
>
> Andrea
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "antarpremal" <antarpremal@>
> wrote:
>
> > when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque
> > for a gal her age and I should start to brush her teeth every day.
>
Oh and something I didn't mention she was often getting beef tendon from the pet store
in the earlier chewing stage of puppyhood but not recently
will you also see the re to sandee?

Messages in this topic (6)
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3f. Re: plaque
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 9:12 pm ((PDT))

"antarpremal" <antarpremal@...> wrote:
>
> She is now 7 months old and I just had her spayed a few days ago. All
went well however
> when the doc checked her teeth he said that she has a lot of plaque
for a gal her age and I
> should start to brush her teeth every day.
*****
Yes, this would be distresssing. Even when my dogs were fed kibble at
seven months their teeth were mighty white.

What are you feeding her? Has she gotten ample opportunity to work on
meaty body parts? Any health issues that might be connected,
medications?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 2:03 pm ((PDT))

This is probably off-topic, so send me off to rawchat if need be, mod
squad. I'm late on this thread so if this is already covered, my
apologies. When dogs guard any high-value item (including raw food),
it's a training issue, pure and simple. Either we train them not to do
this, or we end up managing the dogs at every mealtime for the rest of
their lives. Training is probably easier.

Here is what I recall about training dogs not to guard valuable
resources like toys, beds, or food. Give the dog his high-value item
(raw dinner, or prized toy). Take it away, but quickly replace it with
an item of equal or greater value (more raw food, or a prized toy). Do
this until the dog realizes that it's okay for you to take away an item
of high value because you are going to pay him every time. Perhaps
start with a toy, if the food is just too important to mess with at
first.

Once the dog is comfortable with you taking away the high-value item,
you can start to vary the number of seconds between removing a
high-value item and replacing it with another one, so the interval is
unpredictable (not always ten seconds; sometimes three seconds,
sometimes 11 seconds, and when they get good at this, sometimes 46
seconds and sometimes 4).

Also, if they growl and snap but you know they won't bite you, you can
simply take their food away and not give it back until they are polite
about it. I have also used the time out to great advantage in training
out other undesirable behavior.


Carolyn J. Garnaas and Molly Toy Poodle, Who Will Occasionally Growl if
I Give Her a Kiss While She is Babysitting Her Dinner. I Just Scold Her
And Give Her the Kiss Anyway. She's Not Going to Bite Me.

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Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:25 am ((PDT))

Hi, Nancy!
If I could just add a few points to the other responses;

1) This is not about your dog having a 'sweet' personality, its about her
being a dog, and being a wolf. A survival skill is not letting food be taken
away from you; that is resource guarding. If a dog or wolf didn't have that
instinct, they wouldn't survive. Resource guarding can extend to *anything*
valuable to a dog; food, chewies, toys, his sleeping areas, doorways, 'his'
car, 'his' person, etc. It is only problematical when dogs live with people,
we can't allow a dog to resource guard from us.

1) The best way to teach a dog not to resource guard from us, is to teach
him that when we want something he has, it means he gets better things from
us! If we do this enough times, he will look at giving up food, or other
valuable resources as not a scary thing, or at us as rivals for resources,
but as a sign that he may get something better instead.

3) This means NOT taking something away, then giving it back, or even
approaching closer than he is comfortable with. This will only teach him
that you DO want 'his' stuff, and make him anxious when people get close to
'his' stuff. Give him his meal and move away until he is not concerned with
your presence. Sit in a chair, not facing him, nor staring at him. Toss
special yummy treats onto his eating spot, so that all he has to do is stop
eating briefly, eat the treat, and go back to his meal. What the the treats
are don't matter, as long as they are as good or better than what he is
eating. Cheese, 'people food' or bits of raw meat work fine! Over the course
of a week or so, sit closer to him at each meal. Anytime he stops eating,
growls, 'glares', freezes or shows concern about your proximity, you're too
close.

4) Separately from this, its time to teach him "Trade" or "Give". Give him a
chewie or toy, something he likes but isn't wild over. when he takes it,
show him the handful of yummy treats you have in your hand. Tell him "Trade"
in a pleasant tone of voice, and lure his head way from his chewie with the
treats under his nose. AS he is eating the treats in your hand, use your
other hand to pick up the chewie. Give it right back to him, and repeat,
repeat, repeat. As you practice, he will start to drop or leave the
chewie/toy to look happily for his treats. YaY! Gradually increase the value
of the chewie/toy, and ALSO the treats, over a week or more, practicing a
couple times a day.

5) When he is comfortably dropping the chewie/toy on the cue "Trade", and he
is comfortable with you sitting on the floor near him while he eats, and
happily taking the special treats from you, then you can start asking him to
"Trade" his meal for the treats, then giving it back to him. Make sure the
treats are extra special yummy ones!

6) This can work for stuff he picks up that he shouldn't have, too. Once he
has the "Trade" concept down pat, if he has something you don't want him to
have, just say excitedly, Lets go "Trade" something yummy for that, and
watch him fork it over for a bit of treat!
HTHs
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/9/07, Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US) <carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com> wrote:

> This is probably off-topic, so send me off to rawchat if need be, mod
> squad. I'm late on this thread so if this is already covered, my
> apologies. When dogs guard any high-value item (including raw food),
> it's a training issue, pure and simple. Either we train them not to do
> this, or we end up managing the dogs at every mealtime for the rest of
> their lives. Training is probably easier.
> <snip>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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5. Update on 7 disabled furkids on RAW
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

My senior Lhasa is battling severe skin issues again after starting raw BUT
it's been on going for 11 years. He had just cleared up again so any advice
here on maybe ... geez, I don't even know what to ask for advice on.... he's
on chicken. Bright red skin again, shewing & itching. I gave them a bite
of turkey neck last night but he was red much before that. He gets Ester-C,
vitamin E & Fish Oil as per opthomologist & dermatologist recommendations.
He also is being treated for thyroid & medicated baths twice weekly.

My other senior Lhasa girl has been incredibly over weight (double her
weight) for many years & we've just struggled with her. Including she just
had 11 teeth removed & was on canned food only (1 can a day only). She had
started losing a wee bit of weight but since raw (almost 2 weeks?) she is
losing weight *looking good* & gets 2 chicken legs per day & treats. She is
finally getting some weight of her deformed joints. What I do with the 3
Lhasas (2 ten pounders & one 20 pounder) is cut a thigh/leg piece into 3
parts (if I don't have just drum sticks) & divide it up between them all &
rotate the next feeding so they get the whole piece in 3 different feedings.

The Danes are a whole 'nother story.
Casper is just huge (7 1/2 months & over 140 pounds now of Euro Dane) &
loving the raw bit been sick this past week (NOT from raw!!) so he's had a
belly ache from the meds & recycling the food & some diarrhea (he doesn't
recycle that!). Besides that he is ok.

Louie the middle pup (5 1/2 months old) is really enjoying the chicken, he
gets about 3+ quarters a day & holding his weight (he's a lean Am. Dane)

Whisper (the 4 1/2 month old thin Am. Dane) has been the problem (so to
speak). She had the runny poo the night before her gran mal seizure &
hadn't eaten......she then had normal poo during the seizure.....after that
she stopped eating chicken & we cannot have her not eat...period.... the
seizure could have been a couple things but she's been a special needs pup
since I brought her home & low blood sugar is a huge concern so we offered
her boneless chicken breast & she accepted that) & ground beef (that was ok
too) & a turkey neck (this is over a few days time mind you)....I'd rather
deal with runny poo than a seizure or dead pup. Unfortunately, it is this
important that she eat often. She then ate the beef rib so i found out she
LOVES them; though how she ate it wasn't pleasing! Note: When I fed her
the turkey neck, I held the other end and made her chew it. I know this is
stepping way ahead for her & this diet but 7 of my 9 dogs are special needs
& I think I am having to make some adjustments that others wouldn't even
need consider.

Chip the Dal is a piggie :-) He loves the diet but he's old & it took me a
long time to get the extra 40 pounds off him when he was obese. So, he gets
2 - 3 thigh quarters a day. He is 98 pounds. Suggestions? he seems to be
ok with the weight but sometimes I think he is thin. His spine bone sticks
up a we bit due to bone degeneration & he has a huge abdominal tumor that
takes up space so i also feed him at least twice a day to ensure his belly
gets enough food from that growth taking space. No, he cannot have it
removed. We just work around it, literally :-)

Their poo is much better & this morning the two Danes were ok! perhaps that
one turkey neck was the reason?
I just bought another freezer (it was 530$ on sale & alot of cubic feet)
because last night there was a huge sale & I need to go stock up. 10 pounds
of thighs & legs for 9$. Also turkey necks on sale! I despise shopping but
I don't mind shopping for their food.
Also a friend has offered me another deep freezer that I will pick up in a
day or two. That should stock a bit more meats!

So, is it ok to keep adding a neck to help their poop become more firm.
Remember now, my Danes have never had normal poo....so could the turkey
necks be the right staple in their diet? It was just an off the wall thing
I gave it a try & it worked........

The Lhasas still have a bit of white poo, so more bone than necessary.... I
am trying to find just the drum sticks for them at all feedings since it has
more meat? perhaps another part would be better for the little ones?
Advice?
The do need to eat twice daily.
There's a few other things I am trying to work around.....but this is long
enough. thanks for any advice & hope the positive report helps out anyone
in question just starting out that is newer than me. I suppose if my
handicapped dogs can do this diet, than any dog can!
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

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6.1. Re: New to Raw Feeding
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

> I am new to raw feeding and have been doing lots of reading but
have not made the switch yet. I would greatly appreciate any advice
and knowledge anyone would be willing to share with me on making the
switch and what others feed. Thanks in advance.

I've been feeding raw for 7 or 8 months now with no problems. Here's
my advice:

1. When switching over, do not feed kibble at all as it digests
differently. Start with nothing but chicken for at least 2 weeks. If
your dog eats too fast you can freeze it. Digestive upsets are
normal and should pass. Vomiting bile is normal if your dog is used
to eating kibble throughout the day. Feeding twice a day helps if
this is a problem. Constipation or diarhea are also normal but if
you are feeding large chunks of chicken, the bone/meat content is
perfect to offset this.

2. Feed large chunks of meat, preferably at least as big as your
dog's head. This minimizes the risk of choking or eating too fast.

3. Over time, variety is the most important thing. Gradually
introduce new protein sources. Liver is essential for its nutrient
content, but shouldn't be fed often. Once a week or so is good, the
amount depends on the size of your dog. Stick with chicken only in
the beginning, though.

Those are the basics I can think of. There is a ratio of 90% meat
and 10% organs, 5% of which should be liver. There is also a
guideline of feeding 2-3% of your dog's weight. But I've never paid
any attention to ratios and very few people weigh their dog's food
or consciously think of numbers.

Good luck!

Jess and Toby

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7a. Re: goat tongue not allowed to harvested in all states in USA???
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

>Great and interesting site! Thank You!

Hi. I thought it was interesting too. I was sort of looking for taste info on game meat because I thought that could be used to decide what flavor my dog did not care for andsuch if I compare that to what palette hesitate to eat...

But I am not sure if dog's taste and human tastes can match to describe meats'
flavor.

Did you check the site? Yea,the priceisexpensive anddefinitely not for bulk buys for me but I checked ground shipping can be costing around 29 dollars to VA from TX.So,not bad if you see just shipping fee.

And,for west coasters,they have branch retailer of same name in seattle,other than San Antonio,TX.so,I think if anybody was interested in game meats,then,anybody can get them with not too expensive shipping fee although meat itself is pricy looking.

I am sort of interesting to try game meat too if I had chance too. how dare:-P

I read that wild Boar is quite lean meat than meat of regular pork,so,maybe,for fat sensitive dogs,Wild boar could be another choice instead of Pork.

>All of them would be safe to feed immediately, expensive but safe for dogs!

That was what I suspected but raw rattle snakes for dogs?? lol

if sold for human consumption,then,all raw meat is ok for dogs to eat then.

>Might be ordering some treats myself, once winter gets here, lol.

I tend to do that too when I order game meat. Buffalo ham that i tried was pretty good.

But so far,just browsing because freezer still close to full...Maybe next month or so.

Oh yea,have anybody heard about Goattongue cannot be harvested by law??

Since my dog go nuts about Goat,so,I did search farm of Goat in Maine.so,I was asking shipping fee andavailability of waht I may get regulary when stock got low.

The lady told me that in Maine,no processors are allowed to harvest Goat tongues and she thought that if she asked processors to keep the tongues,she could get for me but no,all processors in Maine are not allowed to get them.

Is it applied to all processors in US or just state of maine??

Curious. The lady could not know why cannot get it by law but let me know about it so, I was curious.

Anybody knows about this?

yassy

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Messages in this topic (3)
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8.1. Re: new to raw
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

>>I am new to raw feeding and have been doing lots of reading but have not made the switch yet. I would greatly appreciate any advice and knowledge anyone would be willing to share with me on making the switch and what others feed. Thanks in advance.<<

Michelle -- with about 10,000 people on this list, that's a rather general approach. Have you been reading posts? Check the archives, too, for a wealth of information on various aspects of rawfeeding. If you have specific concerns or questions, please ask, though.
Switching: Buy a chicken. Give it to your dog. Or, if a smaller dog, cut chicken into quarters (or smaller). Give to your dog. I'm not being sarcastic, it really is this simple to do.

What I feed my dogs -- various pieces/parts of pork, chicken, turkey, venison, elk, lamb, rabbit, beef heart, various organs.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (47)
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9a. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 4:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, bel!
Hmmm, chicken backs and necks are awfully bony as a staple in the
diet. Necks may be a choking risk for dogs of their breeds, if they don't
chew, but swallow them whole.
Never heard of fish meal, is it cooked, dehydrated, processed?
How much of their daily meal is liver?
How much do each of your dogs weigh? How old are they? How active?
Without knowing your dog's weights, I can't really guess, but given their
respective breeds, 12.7 oz a day (I don't 'do' grams) doesn't seem like
enough.
We do recommend that people feed 2-3% of a dog's estimated ideal adult
weight per day, as a starting point. If your dog's are older, not active,
small for their breeds, or easy keepers, then 12.7 oz daily may be enough.
But, if they are pups, young adults of average size, normally active or
performance dogs, this may not be adequate, especially given the amount of
bone you seem to be feeding.

Recreational bones, or wreck bones, are not good for a dog - they wear teeth
down and cause breakage and fractures. You're feeding beef marrow or knuckle
bones, right? Beef bones are generally TOO dense for dogs. They hold up
whole cows, and are harder than a dog's teeth! You want edible bones in
their diet, but they are already getting more than enough of that. Dental,
mental and physical activity can and should be provided by the size, variety
and composition of the whole prey or animal parts in a dog's diet, not just
by bones.

This list supports and promotes a species appropriate whole raw prey model
diet.

We suggest about 80% meat (muscle, skin, fat, connective tissue) - 10%
EDIBLE bone - 10% organ (5% is liver, 5% is 'other')

I'd suggest you add more meat, as in quartered or halved whole chickens,
ditch the wreck bones, and the fasts, add more VARIETY of protein, such as
pork, beef, rabbit or goat and organs, like kidney, spleen, or sweetbreads
into their diet.

Dairy, after a pup has been weane, isn't necessary as dogs become lactose
intolerant.

Have you read any of these archived links and websites?

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

You can copy and print out information that you want to refer to later, or
save it to a file in MS Works, Word, or WordPad on your desktop, if you
want.

Here is a link to a source for whole prey in the UK;

http://www.livefoods.co.uk/
I've read that a few people in the UK use, uh, Londo's, Landy's, maybe
Landywoods? Can someone help my memory out here?

TC and tell us all about your dogs!
Giselle

On 10/9/07, bel ola€ ¦ÿfffff1o <bel_the@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks again...
>
> I'm feeding 360g of chicken back and necks with chicken liver per meal to
> my dal and pitbull at least 4x/week, fish meal (sardines/yellow fin)
> twice/week and recreational beef bones every Sunday (fasting day) with a cup
> of milk in between (and lots of water)
>
> I would reconsider fasting though.
>
> been in raw feeding for 6 weeks already and my dogs love it...
>
> bel
>
>

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Messages in this topic (13)
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9b. Re: FEEDING SCHEDULE
Posted by: "bel olaÿfffff1o" bel_the@yahoo.com bel_the
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:10 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks Giselle, I appreciate it...
I am from the Philippines, we have pre-packed whole fish (uncooked) called "fish meal" here. And pre packed (frozen) chicken back and neck with heart and liver called "chicken soup bone".
Charla and Scarlet weighs 18.14kgs (forgive me, we use metric system here). 2% of their body weight should me 360g A pack of "chicken soup bone" (inclusve of heart and liver) is more or less 360g.
Thanks agian.

BEL

Messages in this topic (13)
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10a. ADMIN/Re: FOOD AGGRESSION ON RAW??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 8:13 pm ((PDT))

Um, sorry guys but food aggression is not about diet but rather about
resource guarding and it should not be discussed on rawfeeding but
rather on Rawchat. Please take all related discussion to Rawchat.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (10)
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11a. Re: Liquid poo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

"Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, I forgot to mention that he had hookworms and I've been giving
him
> DE for that. Could the liquid poo this morning just be his body
> getting rid of them or something related to that?
*****
Um, yeah.
I think that mighta done it.
While it's not impossible that stinky food would set him off, it's not
likely.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: another question on size of food
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi Shawna,

I had the same question in the beginning and got some help
understanding it (thanks Carrie and others)! With small items like a
chicken wing, and anything other than a tiny dog, they will often
just gulp it and could choke. When it's attached to a 1/4 or 1/2 or
whole bird (the best size of meal depends on the dog), they have to
work more to dismantle it and will more naturally figure out the best
way to eat it and break it down into more manageable pieces. And by
the time it's broken down into a smaller piece, they're fuller and
their brain seems more engaged (not just in gulping mode), so they
aren't as stupid about swallowing things that might not fit down the
throat. They seem to be thinking more about what they're eating by
then. Does that make sense? I mean, if I give my dog a bite-size
piece of meat w/bone, he'll probably not really think about what it
is and just take it and swallow/try to swallow it. If he gets
something he has to work at, he starts ripping and tearing and gets a
sense of what it is, and where the bone is located, etc.

Things also usually calm down as they get used to this type of food.
My dog was a real gulper in the beginning. Now, a year into prey
model, he's much smarter. He is starting to leave small bits of bone
now--I don't have to be right on top of grabbing them all the time
anymore.

But, dogs also do often swallow some hunks we'd consider quite big!
My dog swallowed a really big hunk of boneless lamb today and it came
back up for further ripping and tearing (learning! :-)).

Sounds like you are doing ok w/size of food, but you might also try
feeding bigger and see how it goes. It's fun to experiment. You
might notice your dog slows down if you do 1/2 a chicken. If that's
too much for one day, feed a snack the next day, like a piece of
boneless meat or a Kong stuffed w/ground beef (frozen, if you want to
give a further challenge).

HTH (hope that helps!),

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shawna" <Mavides@...> wrote:
> Anyway - I keep hearing people saying that items such as chicken
and
> turkey necks and chicken wings are too small for large dogs due to
> the choking hazaard. What is the difference if a dog is given a
> chicken wing or if he pulls off a chicken wing from a whole
> chicken...isn't the piece that he ends up eating exactly the same?

Messages in this topic (2)
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13. Nutritional needs during pregnancy
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:10 pm ((PDT))

I have just had a bitch bred and although we do not have confirmation
of pregnancy yet, I want to be sure that she is getting everything she
needs from the start. Should I be doing anything more or less than the
usual formula? I know not to increase the calcium, but is there
anything else I should be aware of? She is getting additional fish oil
to boost her immune system (12000 mg's daily; she is 130 lbs). Is this
safe?

You will not be surprised that the vet at the veterinary teaching
hospital where the insemination was performed asked about her diet. He
didn't say anything about raw, but the aftercare instructions noted
that she should be put on a high grade commercial diet so that she gets
the full array of nutrients she needs!

Thanks for any advice.

Dianne M.

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14a. Re: Raw Beef ribs?
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:11 pm ((PDT))

I would definitely not want to crush beef ribs for feeding. The small
pieces scare me to death. If my dog needed soft food, I'd probably
grind it. Beef ribs, especially in a whole slab, make an awesome
chewy meal. None of my dogs will actually eat the bones, but they'll
work on them for a long time, getting the meat off and nibbling the
ends of the naked bones. They all eat pork ribs though, like it's a
loaf of bread.

-Tammy

Messages in this topic (7)
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15a. Re: WHEN DO YOU CALL A DOG "TOO" THIN?
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 10:11 pm ((PDT))

My rule of thumb is that if I rub their sides (like when we're playing
and I just grab Grover and rub her up and down making howl sounds) and
can feel the ribs, that's fine. As long as I can't make a drumming
sound by running a stick down them like a fence. I don't like to be
able to feel her hip bones however, and I didn't know that there were
breeds that you're SUPPOSED to feel hip bones on. Also, a couple back
bones are okay to feel since the backs arch a little (at least on
Dobes), but more than 1 or 2 is too much.

Also, it's important to remember that age has a lot to do with it.
During the "teenage" years I just assume they're all gonna be gawky
and leggy and skinny no matter how much they eat. Now that Grover is
almost 2, she's become much meatier and heavier although still with
the right amount of fat.

Another also, Grover just kind of goes up and down a pound or so all
the time. Some days she's a lean machine and some days she's
downright paunchy. But I think it all goes to the raw feeding mantra
"balance over time."

-Tammy and Grover who is offended that I called her paunchy.

Messages in this topic (4)
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16a. Re: Help! Dog not eating.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2007 11:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sibyl!
I have a few suggestions.
1) offer her some low sodium chicken or beef broth, as often as she
wants it. This will tide her over until she feels like solid food, and
may help her feel hungry. You can offer it right out of the can, or
lukewarm.

2) Offer her some tripe. Mix some with a little ground chicken or turkey.

3) Mix a little Slippery Elm Bark Powder into her broth, or with the
tripe, to soothe her digestive system.
HTHs
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> OK, Trinity, my ESS, is not eating. She is raw fed, loves to eat but
> I think she got a bit of motion sickness from our long drive home
> last night (8+hours in the car).
<snip>
> Any suggestions? (hope this post is OK for this group, if not please
> direct me to a raw fed group that may be able to help).
>
> -Sibyl-
> Trinity & Titan thank you too!

Messages in this topic (6)
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