Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 11, 2007

Thursday, October 11, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12151

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
2b. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
From: Jaala

3. Introduction and question(s)
From: Di

4a. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: Jaala
4b. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: cypressbunny
4c. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: cypressbunny
4d. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: Sandee Lee
4e. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: Giselle
4f. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: Carol Dunster
4g. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: Jaala
4h. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: Sandee Lee
4i. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: sphynxlover2

5. dog with chronic diarrhea
From: jab48328

6a. PLS HELP ME FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH TO FEED AS A MEAL?
From: angela182548
6b. Re: PLS HELP ME FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH TO FEED AS A MEAL?
From: katkellm

7a. Re: Great Prices on chicken
From: girlndocs

8a. Re: Switching to "big"/Gorge-Fast
From: katkellm

9a. Re: Is this normal??
From: tottime47

10a. Re: duke needs to brush his teeth.
From: Michelle Grabert
10b. Re: duke needs to brush his teeth.
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: girlndocs

12. Raw feeding for Sphynx cats.
From: sphynxlover2

13a. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
From: tottime47

Messages
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1a. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> I do not feed
> veggitables, fruit, legumes, or grains. I have just read some
> information ...

The information you read was wrong. There are no nutrients in
vegetables, fruit, legumes or grains that is not in the meat, bones
and organs of the prey animals that eat them. Those are the animals
you feed to your dog.

> Should I add these other foods to his diet?

Absolutely no.

> If I don't add them, should I supplement to make sure he gets
> all the essential vitamins?

No, there is no scientific evidence that any supplements actually
help any humans or dogs. All the nutrients that your dog needs are
in the meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals they eat. If
that weren't so, wolves would have been extinct hundreds of
thousands of years ago.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:49 pm ((PDT))

Tracy,

I can see why you are confused. Put the book down! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@catt.com>

Well, I have been reading Dr. Pitchairn's book Natual health for dogs
and cats. I get mixed messages and I am getting confused.

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kathleen,

Congratulations if your newbie cats are already eating ground raw. :)

Try increasing the size of the pieces of meat gradually and when a 1-2 oz
piece of beef stew or pork or chicken breast will disappear, use a bone-in
chicken breast piece and see if that all goes away.You might need
to smash up a chicken wing so the cat will realize there's something eatable
inside the bone...

When you feed a bony meal, after the bone, offer an ounce of meaty meat,
since there's not much meat on a wing or a neck piece... (But AFTER, so hungry
boy eats the bone first. Or at least gnaws on it and starts toward
eating it.)

My cats got chicken thighs tonight, with part of the meat cut off, to be fed
as just a meaty meal in the morning.

Lynda

In a message dated 10/11/2007 5:08:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"redshorty1959" writes:

> Cats yes...(I am giving them ground raw on a plate)

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
Posted by: "Jaala" vaughanjaala@aol.com central_tx_angel04
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:21 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

My two short hair dogs keep themselves pretty clean. With my poodle, I
band her ears while she is eating and try to ignore the stuff on her
legs :P

Messages in this topic (8)
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3. Introduction and question(s)
Posted by: "Di" fleabite001@yahoo.com fleabite001
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

My name is Di and I live in Western Australia.

I have a rescue dog called Dexter. He is one year old and a big cattle
dog/sheepdog type, with long legs. I've had him almost 6 weeks. He was
very unhappy in the dogs home though he was well treated of course and
was a big favourite there because of his character and temperament.

When I got him he was very thin, his breastbone was like a knifeblade,
it was impossible to rub his chest without choosing one side or other
of the "knife". His coat was rough and dull and he had no appetite.

The dog's home sold me some k****le they said he'd like, but he
refused it. To get him to eat I gave him some raw meat I had and we
were on our way!

He is now well covered and getting a more adult shape with a broad
chest. His coat is just beautiful. First the hair on his head became
soft and shiny, then every day the good health spread down his body
from there and now he is just beautiful.

I didn't know about introducing foods one at a time, I just bought
what was on special and have fed him chicken, lamb and beef. I tried
fish but he just rolled in it! He has enjoyed playing with a raw egg.
I made him go outside again with it after he bought it in whole and
left it on the couch!

Sometimes his stools are loose, especially the first three weeks.
Recently he seems constipated, trying to "go" unsuccessfully. I have
just fed him a lamb's liver to loosen him up. That's right isn't it?

His appetite has improved so much, he reminds me when it's mealtime now.

I am wondering how to gauge the correct amount to feed him as he is
"bulking up" as a year old dog, also he is a young working dog with
high exercise needs. We walk him twice a day for a total of an hour or
more,which usually incorporates a good play session with some mates.

Yesterday we went on a long run (me on a bike) for a couple of hours,
and he had plenty of energy to play afterwards.
Though this is the first morning he isn't bugging me for a walk!

Should I just feed him as he asks for it? I feed him twice a day.
Usually he asks me for more till he's full then he says "thank you"
and lies down to rest.

I think he's at the right weight at the moment, I can see his last two
ribs and can feel his ribs when I stroke him upwards with both hands,
but now downwards.

Sorry for the length of this. It is partly because I am so proud of
him! and partly for the information.

Thanks to the moderators for running this excellent list

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "Jaala" vaughanjaala@aol.com central_tx_angel04
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:32 pm ((PDT))

When I started my dogs on raw I went from kibble one day to raw the
next and everything was ok.

Giselle said "doom nuggets" and I almost fell out of my chair laughing!
~Jaala

Messages in this topic (15)
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4b. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:34 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> I was reading this in the book by Dr. Pitcairn's natural health for
> dogs and cats. It states to fast a sick animal?? I don't know.

*** If the dog is vomiting or having diarrhea, it makes sense to fast.
Already the system is having trouble dealing with the food, or perhaps
with bad food. Why add more on top of what the body already can't deal
with? Fast for a meal or a day, and then start again with a small meal
and see how it goes. If the illness is not GI related, fasting might
not be appropriate.

Carrie

Messages in this topic (15)
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4c. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:35 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jaala" <vaughanjaala@...> wrote:

> Giselle said "doom nuggets" and I almost fell out of my chair
laughing!

*** She STOLE the term Doom Nuggets from ME!!! I've trade marked it
and nobody can use it without my express written permission!

Just kidding, I get a big kick out of seeing it appear here and there
years after I first said it :-)

Carrie

Messages in this topic (15)
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4d. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

Is she sick?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@catt.com>

I was reading this in the book by Dr. Pitcairn's natural health for
dogs and cats. It states to fast a sick animal?? I don't know.

Messages in this topic (15)
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4e. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

I really like it, too!!

From now on, it'll be Doom Nuggets *tm (Carrie)!! ROFL

And I like to write cr*p-in-a-bag, too. But no one's ever claimed that term!

^_^ Carrie!

TC
Giselle

>
> > Giselle said "doom nuggets" and I almost fell out of my chair
> laughing!
>
> *** She STOLE the term Doom Nuggets from ME!!! I've trade marked it
> and nobody can use it without my express written permission!
>
> Just kidding, I get a big kick out of seeing it appear here and there
> years after I first said it :-)
>
> Carrie
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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4f. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:48:21 -0000, you wrote:

>Can someone let me
>know which would be better, starting raw asap, or fasting 2-7 days.

First I'd say - take a deep breath. Relax. Plan to just feed and enjoy
your new dog. It doesn't make any sense at all to fast for several
days, just spend time with your dog and let the dog show you what you
need to know. It really seems quite simple - though I just started, my
little dogs are having a great time and are thrilled to have "real
food" for their dinner! (They are already used to some raw in their
diet, so the change over is very smooth so far.)

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (15)
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4g. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "Jaala" vaughanjaala@aol.com central_tx_angel04
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:29 pm ((PDT))

She has mange

*~Jaala~*
Diego(Pit bull)~Kelsey(Boxer/shar pei)~Ava(Standard poodle)
Bouncer and Oakley(Cats)~Peekaboo and JT(Cockatiels)
Wally(Bearded dragon)~ and two gold fish. *Welcome to my zoo*

Messages in this topic (15)
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4h. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:34 pm ((PDT))

All the more reason to feed appropriately.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jaala" <vaughanjaala@aol.com>

She has mange

Messages in this topic (15)
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4i. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "sphynxlover2" AST42701@aol.com sphynxlover2
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi Tracy,
I am still new to raw feeding (3 1/2 months in) but I just woke up one
morning and looked at my pet's kibble and thought "I wouldn't want to
eat this every day for my entire life. Why should I expect my pets
to?". I didn't know nearly enough at the time, but I threw out the
kibble and jumped in with both feet that day and I've never looked
back. I had a hard time at first convincing my 6 year old AmStaff, who
has always been an extremely picky eater. Now he gets so excited at
dinner time I can't even believe it's the same dog. My other two (a
Chi and a Sphynx) were easy to convince and seemed to wonder why it
took me so long to figure out. Now, dinner takes just 5 minutes and
comes second nature to us. Just do it and stop thinking so hard.
You'll be so happy you did it for your pets! ;)
Rachelle in MS

Messages in this topic (15)
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5. dog with chronic diarrhea
Posted by: "jab48328" jab48328@yahoo.com jab48328
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, It has been forever since I have written. Hope you haven't just
covered this issue. If so, I'm sorry.

I have a rescue Chihuahua whom I took in on September 19th. He took
immediately to rawfeeding. He has eaten exactly what my other dogs
eat, both ground chicken with skin, bone, organs etc., whole chicken,
pork ribs, etc.

He has diarrhea that causes him to strain and it shoots out. For
several days in a row, I even gave him chicken backs to increase the
bone. It has not helped.

He had a fecal test that showed nothing.

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions about what may help? I am at
a loss and would like to help him.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Jo Anne Bigler

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. PLS HELP ME FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH TO FEED AS A MEAL?
Posted by: "angela182548" angela182548@yahoo.com angela182548
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:23 pm ((PDT))

Thanks again for your help... The babies thank you!!
ok I am feeding a 70 lb shepherd/chow mix Charlie ~ a 50 lb
pit/beagle mix Lula Belle ~ 7mo old red nose about 30-35lbs Maycie

Tonight I went to the butcher and got turkey necks, gizzards, and
cows feet ...are cows feet ok? they are pretty cool lookin'...
I was ready to get turkey legs and whole chickens.....but I let some
guy that was in line behind me scare me to death... "chicken bones
splinter...they will get lodged in thier throat...I know, I am a
chef"..blah blah blah. He also said the same about the turkey necks
and legs...but the necks were great.. soft & grissely(sp?) so I guess
the legs would be the same?

Tonight I gave them each a turkey neck .. baby only ate half... and
I gave baby 2 gizzards and lula & charlie 3 gizzards. Is that ok? Is
that good for a meal? They are acting like they are starving though,
they keep coming up to me w/ "that look", Lula even brought me her
bowl. Should I give more?
When I give them boneless meat how much should I use?
Thanks for all of your help, Angela

btw: how do I trim my message? I dont know what that means.

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: PLS HELP ME FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH TO FEED AS A MEAL?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:03 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angela182548" <angela182548@...>
wrote:
> Tonight I gave them each a turkey neck .. baby only ate half... and
> I gave baby 2 gizzards and lula & charlie 3 gizzards. Is that ok? Is
> that good for a meal? They are acting like they are starving though,

Hi Angela,
You need to feed 2-3% of their ideal adult weight per day. Your 50lb
dog needs to eat about 1lb a day. Your 70lb dog needs to eat about 1
and a half lbs a day. You'll have to decide how big you think your
puppy will be when full grown and figure out what 2% of that expected
weight will be. So, since i don't think turkey necks weigh a pound,
you probably didn't feed enough food. Also, please don't listen to
people in the store. Turkey necks are not a better choice than
chicken. Turkey necks are too bony to be a meal and due to their size
in relation to the size of your dogs they are the kind of food that
encourage stupid eating by a dog--swallow whole and don't stop and
chew. Cows hoofs which are detached from the leg are an ok chew and
have fun thing, but they are not a meal. I would go back to the store
and because you are so nervous about this, i would start with bone in
chicken breasts. They have very easy eating bones in them with enough
meat to be a good meal. Don't worry about boneless meals yet or
organs. Right now you need the bone to keep your dogs' stools firm.
Honestly, people on this list have helped thousands of people begin to
feed raw, and so you need to believe what you read here and not what
you here elsewhere. Cross my heart, KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Great Prices on chicken
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

> we are getting chicken thigh/quarters meat on sale for a week now at
> .49 at 10 lbs bags.... It's at a store called SAARs. I'm not sure if
> this is a chain or not since I am on an island.

You must be in WA -- we have a Saar's Market Place by us too. ("By
us," heh, that would be my German grandmother coming through there ...)

We snagged a couple bags -- would have got more but we don't have a
big freezer yet. Don't know if you've opened yours yet but they're
pretty big quarters, some of them have the backs attached as well (!)
and I found at least one with some ribs and lungs on.

I don't think the wholesale folks even carry chicken this cheap in the
30-lb cases.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: Switching to "big"/Gorge-Fast
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...> wrote:
> so) but I'm wondering how I figure out when he might be ready for that
> sort of a switch.

Hi Shannon,
This is only how it worked out for me, so its not a this is how it
must be done thing--actually i had NO intentions of ever feeding big
meals, so this is how it just kind of unfolded. I fed each protein
for one week before switching to another. So, that was weeks. Then i
started weeks of today is chicken, tomorrow is pork, the next day
turkey... Then, i got really brave (ok, i'm not a very adventuresome
soul)and fed turkey and pork, chicken and beef...at the same meal.
All this took place over about 4 months. When Thanksgiving came
around, i decided I wanted to give each dog a whole turkey. In
preparation for this, for about a week, i varied the portion sizes,
still feeding once a day-a little more one day, a little less the
next...you know kinda mixed it up a bit. I guess what i think is that
once you have fed all types of proteins and all kinds of combos, and
varied your meals sizes you are ready. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Is this normal??
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

Sometimes they can get a little sick from the 'extras' we give them
and when they are busy trying to digest that little extra, it can
interfer with normal digestion........

Has she munched anything like extra veggies from your plate or maybe
some grass?

If she's doing ok now, I don't think it's anything to really worry
about, just watch the mextra treats.....

Hope this helps a little

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,just a seconds ago,palette vomitted up yelloowish liquid with
pinky nail size of solid stuff.

> Is this normal taking so long to vomit up waht she could not
digest well?
>
> yassy

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10a. Re: duke needs to brush his teeth.
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi, I have seen two terms here and I don't know what they refer too.."wreak" bone and "yarn bone. Can someone please tell me what they are.? Thanks. michelle

iumadness64 <iumadness64@yahoo.com> wrote: I haven't seen any responses that include the 'yarn bone'...maybe since
it isn't a raw item, but considering your post and some talk about
towel shredding, I would think getting a yarn bone from your local pet
store would be a great way for you dog to floss. Every dog I have had
absolutely LOVES theirs. It is good for playing fetch too. Just a
thought.

Mark

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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10b. Re: duke needs to brush his teeth.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:28 pm ((PDT))

Michelle Grabert <chalienme@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I have seen two terms here and I don't know what they refer
too.."wreak" bone and "yarn bone. Can someone please tell me what
they are.?
*****
"Wreck" bones (officially called "rec" or recreation bones) are
called that because the bones generally recommended for such
recreation are beef legs or joints--femurs, marrow bones, soup bones,
knuckles. These bones typically are bare or carry little meat and
are fed solely for gnawing. The problem is, these bones that
supported livestock weighing as much as 2000 pounds are harder than a
dog's teeth and if there is a battle between bone and teeth, teeth
lose. Since rec bones can fracture or break teeth, they're referred
to as "wreck" bones.

A yarn bone, I believe, is a length of rope that's been tied in a
knot at both ends, creating a bone-shaped chew toy with fringe. When
a dog chews the rope, the abrasion cleans the teeth; the fringe may
act like dental floss. They would probably be useful for dogs that
don't feel the need to rip the thing apart.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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11a. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jaala,

> One of my dogs is crazy when it comes to feeding, starts
> foaming at the mouth and turns into dog from hell. Even with bigger
> pieces of meat (chicken halfs, stuff that size) she just kinda bites
> bites then swallows.

That's how she's supposed to be eating :)

Kristin

Messages in this topic (11)
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12. Raw feeding for Sphynx cats.
Posted by: "sphynxlover2" AST42701@aol.com sphynxlover2
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:32 pm ((PDT))

The reason I ask is because I have two Sphynx. One is a 10 year old
male who was a shelter rescue I've had for a year and a half and the
other is a year old male whom I purchased from a breeder about a month
ago.

I made the switch to completely raw for all my pets about 3 1/2 months
ago, and my older Sphynx loved it. He had previously been free
feeding, but with the raw he quickly adapted to letting me know when
he
was hungry and I'd feed him. Sphynx do eat a bit more than the average
cat due to the higher metabolism required to keep them warm, so I let
them eat as much as they want at every meal. Smeagol, my oldest, was
eating about 5-6 ounces of food per day spread over 3 meals and he
maintains a perfect weight (9.1 lbs) at that ratio. (Though Sphynx
conformation exhibitors would prefer them a little heavier than
Smeagol
is, with slight fat pads under the belly)

Sonny, my youngest and newest boy, joined the family in early
September. He was kibble/raw fed by his breeder before I got him, so
he was already accustomed to raw and had no problem with me ditching
the kibble. He will be 1 year old on October 13th and he eats like a
horse! I adopted the same feeding schedule with him, but he "asks" to
eat anywhere from 4-6 times a day, and always at least 2 ounces of
meat at each feeding-sometimes more! He maintains a perfect "show
weight"
on this schedule (10 lbs-he's a large cat), but doesn't that seem like
a LOT of food? Granted, he is a VERY active cat and if he isn't asleep
then he is on the move, plus he's hairless and he's still young.
Smeagol has begun to eat as often as Sonny, but he eats less at each
meal and still ends up eating about the same amount daily. Yesterday
they went through a 1 1/4 pound game hen in 16 hours. Most of that, of
course, was Sonny.

Sonny had a checkup 2 weeks ago and is comletely healthy and worm
free. Is he eating this much simply because he's young and active? My
vet
does not support raw feeding so I didn't ask her (Though she did tell
me she contacted a "feline specialist" about the raw diet to try to
come up with a rebuttal to my argument and I really laughed when she
said her "specialist" agreed with me!). I do know other Sphynx owners,
but none of them feed raw (not that I haven't tried to convince them).
Any ideas?
Rachelle in MS

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Off topic post from a moderator-Help Needed
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carrie,

Any way we can send some money without paypal? I no longer have a
paypal acct. long story, and I'm sure others may not either.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cypressbunny" <cypressbunny@...>
wrote:
>
> Here is the info to help:
>
> >>Any financial help is appreciated. Money can be pay paled to his
> sister
> at _blhulsman@..._ (mailto:blhulsman@...)
>
>
> --Carrie
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12150

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: BALANCED EATING
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: mandarini_gg
2c. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: Giselle
2d. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: trayc2244
2e. Re: I am so confused...Please help
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: Giselle

4a. Concerned about missing vitamins
From: trayc2244
4b. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
From: costrowski75
4d. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
From: trayc2244

5a. Re: Gathering Info.
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: Giselle
6b. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: miensasis

7a. Re: Great Prices on chicken
From: Kevin Brown

8a. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
From: angela182548

9.1. Re: Oil
From: debjmays

10a. Switching to "big"/Gorge-Fast
From: Shannon Hully
10b. Re: Switching to "big"/Gorge-Fast
From: temy1102

11a. Re: Wretching Dog
From: mandarini_gg
11b. Re: Wretching Dog
From: patrice_quinn

12a. Re: Is this normal??
From: Yasuko herron

13a. Re: switching kitten to raw
From: temy1102

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: BALANCED EATING
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering---what is the most nutritionally important of
> the 3 components?

Nothing is more important then the others. All are necessary.

> I know we try to achieve the 80-10-10 (w/5% liver)
> ratio, but if you were to err on the side of a little more of
> one of
> the dietary components, which is the healthiest one to do more
> of and
> least nutritive one to do less of?

These are just numbers. They mean nothing. You can't get even
close if you try your hardest. It doesn't matter if you are right
on the money or way off. The health of your dog won't change.

> Also, does anyone know what the
> long-term effects would be of feeding a diet consistently
> with more than the 10% of bone?

There are no long term effects. Excess calcium is excreted through
the kidneys. I am one of those who probably feed 25% to 30% bone.
I actually have no idea how much bone i feed since I never try to
count. I have been doing this for 5 years with no ill effects.
These are just numbers that someone came up with and based on
nothing other than conjecture. Its one of those examples
of "something that is repeated often enough becomes truth."

> I'm really new to this and really just sticking as close
> as possible to the suggested ratio ...

Don't try so hard. Lighten up. Nothing is critical except feed raw
meat, bones and organs from a variety of animals. Everything else
is more or less meaningless. Feed your dogs a lot of animal parts
from a lot of different animals and don't worry. Both you and your
dog will be ok. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:00 pm ((PDT))

You certainly didn't hear that here! No reason to fast....feed the poor
girl...raw of course! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@catt.com>

I am getting my rescue dog tomorrow (which has mange) I was prepared
to start her on the raw diet asap, but I have been reading and have
been informed that I need to make her fast from 2-7 days before
starting the raw diet. I have no idea what to do. Can someone let me
know which would be better, starting raw asap, or fasting 2-7 days.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "mandarini_gg" amanda.gasparini@gmail.com mandarini_gg
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:43 pm ((PDT))

I'm sure it wouldn't do any harm if you did fast for a day or two.
Seven sounds awfully long to me though. I fasted mine for just a day,
in hopes that the my very, very picky Dane (who while in foster care
was fed raw, then fed kibble, and then I put her back on raw) would
eat with gusto and pick it right back up. That didn't happen (it took
a while for her to get back in the swing of things), but hey, it was
worth a shot.

Mandi

Can someone let me
> know which would be better, starting raw asap, or fasting 2-7 days.
>
> Thanks,
> Tracy
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Tracy!
Some people fast before switching a dog to raw, some do not.
If the dog you are switching has some digestive issues on Doom Nuggets, then
maybe a fast, even just a 12 hour or an overnight one, might ease the
changeover.

If I were fasting a dog previously fed DN to raw, I might not fast at all.
But If I did, I'd offer plenty of low sodium beef or chicken broth during
the fast time. If the dog had digestive issues, I'd feed broth with Slippery
Elm Bark Powder, to soothe the system.

More than 24-48 hours fasting is excessive, unless it is for sound medical
reasons, imo.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Can someone let me
> > know which would be better, starting raw asap, or fasting 2-7 days.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tracy
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

I was reading this in the book by Dr. Pitcairn's natural health for
dogs and cats. It states to fast a sick animal?? I don't know.

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> I have been reading and have
> been informed that I need to make her fast from 2-7 days before
> starting the raw diet.

You weren't informed by a knowledgabel raw feeder. All of my dogs
got kibble for dinner one night and chicken backs for breakfast the
next mrorning, never to have kibble again.

Start your dog the first meal after bringing him home. I did that
with my last adopted dog.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))

"Dawn Crosier" <dlcrosier@...> wrote:
>
> Here's the way a good ol' boy vet explained to me about bloat....
>
> Feed a dog a big sloshy meal and then take him out to run is one
sure way to
> cause bloat.
*****
Your good ol' boy was confusing bloat with torsion. Bloat can and
does happen with accompanying torsion. Thank goodnes for that.
Bloat has nothing to do with a stomach swinging from side to side.
Perhaps the good ol' boy was confusing a dog's stomach with a cow's
udder (not a good ol' boy I'd choose to go hunting with!).

That's why many hunting dogs have
> problems, because the hunter takes him to the motel after a long
hard day of
> hunting, feeds a big meal and lets the dog tank up on water, and
then takes
> it out for one last run for the evening.
*****
I suspect your informant was speaking from personal experience.
First off, I don't know that many hunting dogs bloat (I'm on a huge
hunting retriever list and it's not a recurring topic), and secondly
my guess is the enthusiasm that's been bred into the hunting dog
along with the the over top excitement of the hunting experience PLUS
the anticipation for dinner make for high stress, which is definitely
implicated in bloat.

> Made sense to me. I've witnessed a horse who got colic.
*****
Different issues.

> So, my take is this... feed a nice big meal and just like we all
do after
> our huge Thanksgiving dinner - let the dog lay down and sleep it
off.
*****
I would take it one step backwards, and that's from Ma Nature, who
has built wolves to eat big and get on with their lives. Mech writes
of a pack stuffing themselves silly on fresh prey, dozing off for 45
minutes or so, then moving on. Not at a dead run, but up and going.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:36 pm ((PDT))

I totally agree with Kathy, Jaala !
(btw, she did sign her post)

TC
Giselle

> Hi Jaala,
> No, I'm not worried about bloat because all the bloat studies that
> have been done were conducted on dogs fed kibble and do not apply to
> raw fed dogs.
<snip>
Kibble is unnatural for a dog to to eat. Raw food is the natural dog
food for wolves, hence our dogs. Raw food is highly digestible while
> kibble-look at a kibble vs raw poop-is not. A dog that works up to
> eating a big meal has developed stomach muscles that get a great work
> out. A dog may choose to eat until its stomach distends. A gorge fed
> tummy is ready to digest because it gets a work out and it gets to
> work according to the way it was designed to work. We were taught to
> not let our dogs eat all they want or they will get sick. While this
> may hold true for a kibble fed dog or a new to raw food dog, if wolves
> got sick because they ate all they wanted to, they would be extinct by
> now. Stress seems to play a factor in bloating and it seems to me
> when i watch a kibble feed friend's dogs-fed designer kibble twice a
> day- pace around the kitchen when it approaches feeding time that they
> are way too concerned that they are going to eat.
<snip>
A big meal dog knows what it is like to be really and truly full. They
don't eat fast, well since its big food they can't- but its more like
they know how to pace themselves because they are going to be dining
for a long time.
<snip>

JMO, KathyM

--- who
> knows it goes against what we have been taught and knows that it takes
> a leap of faith and thinks that, since raw feeding is an evolving
> journey, even if it sounds crazy now- yep it did to me at first, too-
> if you keep an open mind, it might make tons of sense a little ways
> down the road.

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Concerned about missing vitamins
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:11 pm ((PDT))

I currently only feed meat, bones, and organs. I do not feed
veggitables, fruit, legumes, or grains. I have just read some
information and now I am concerned that my dog may not be getting all
the nutrients that he needs. Should I add these other foods to his
diet? If I don't add them, should I supplement to make sure he gets
all the essential vitamins?

Thanks
Tracy

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

Where are you reading these things, Tracy???? Sounds like you are getting a
bit of misinformation.

Dogs are carnivores designed to eat meat, bones and organs. They have no
need for carbohydrates and certainly don't require veggies, fruit, legumes
or grains.

Everything that is necessary comes from the food they are designed to
consume.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@catt.com>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:00 pm ((PDT))

"trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>I have just read some
> information and now I am concerned that my dog may not be getting all
> the nutrients that he needs. Should I add these other foods to his
> diet? If I don't add them, should I supplement to make sure he gets
> all the essential vitamins?
*****
If these nutrients come from substances that are not species
appropriate, there's nothing to suggest the nutrients are useful for
the dog. If the dog is not getting its appropriate nutrients from the
meat, bones and organs it eats, fix the diet. Supplements are not the
answer.

I suggest you ask which nutrients are not being provided (proof please)
and I suggest you check out the USDA nutrient database to check what
nutrients your raw foods do in fact offer.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

In fact, here's another:

http://www.nutritiondata.com/
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: Concerned about missing vitamins
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:28 pm ((PDT))

Well, I have been reading Dr. Pitchairn's book Natual health for dogs
and cats. I get mixed messages and I am getting confused.

Tracy

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

Lynette Friedrichs <lraefried@...> wrote:
The chicken in the grocery stores seems to contain 12% broth
solutions. How do you find chicken that isnt filled with this?
*****
Keep hunting.
Also, ask. If you tell us your general location, I'll betcha someone
will be from your neck o' the woods, and will have advice. There are
those who will tell you not to sweat the small stuff. I think you
should sweat the small stuff if you want to--but you may have to do
some leg work (or internet surfing or telephoning).

Also, I spotted some little Cornish game hens that were not filled
with solution. Would these be able to take the place of chicken?
*****
They are chicken, just younger. And some brands are
indeed "enhanced", so don't stop reading those labels. I split game
hens between my 31lb dog and the 10lb cat (not an even split) when I
find game hens cheap. They come and go, they do. For a while a
local store celebrating a "grand reopening" sold game hens for .99/lb
so how could I resist? Whole "real" chickens will be cheaper, you
just have to be persistent.

> When feeding raw, do any of you ever give your dogs your food while
you are eating? Like bits of toast or french fries?
*****
Oh, I certainly do. Not as bad as "one for me, one for you" and not
from the table, but I do share bits and pieces. Toast corners, ice
cream bowls to lick, crumbs to clean up, even table scraps. I don't
see a conflict between a good raw diet and treats. It's when treats
stop being special and start being ordinary that the concept has to
be rethunk.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Nancy!
It must be egg day, today! ^_^

Eggs is good food.
I just looked up the composition of eggs - just the yolk and white, the usda
doesn't list eggshells;
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl
Eggs, scrambled, frozen mixtureNew
Search<http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/index.html>
*NDB No:* 43285 (Nutrient values and weights are for edible portion)
*Refuse:* 0%
Nutrient Units Value per
100 grams Number
of Data
PointsStd.
Error *Proximates* Water g
72.70
0
0
Energy kcal
133
0
0
Energy kj
556
0
0
Protein g
13.10
0
0
Total lipid (fat) g
5.60
0
0
Ash g
1.10
0
0
Carbohydrate, by difference g
7.50
0
0
Fiber, total dietary g
0.0
0
0
Sugars, total g
7.50
0
0

So, there's a LOT of water, some protein, a little fat, and more sugar than
I'd expected.

*Minerals* Calcium, Ca mg
17
0
0
Iron, Fe mg
0.23
0
0
Magnesium, Mg mg
10
0
0
Phosphorus, P mg
30
0
0
Potassium, K mg
147
0
0
Sodium, Na mg
162
0
0
Zinc, Zn mg
0.14
0
0
Copper, Cu mg
0.030
0
0
Selenium, Se mcg
22.9
0
0
*Vitamins* Vitamin C, total ascorbic acid mg
0.0
0
0
Thiamin mg
0.010
0
0
Riboflavin mg
0.300
0
0
Niacin mg
0.090
0
0
Vitamin B-6 mg
0.010
0
0
Folate, total mcg
17
0
0
Folic acid mcg
0
0
0
Folate, food mcg
17
0
0
Folate, DFE mcg_DFE
17
0
0
Choline, total mg
192.6
0
0
Vitamin B-12 mcg
0.17
0
0
Vitamin B-12, added mcg
0.00
0
0
Vitamin A, IU IU
410
0
0
Vitamin A, RAE mcg_RAE
21
0
0
Retinol mcg
0
0
0
Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) mg
0.84
0
0
Vitamin E, added mg
0.00
0
0
Vitamin K (phylloquinone) mcg
1.8
0
0
*Lipids* Fatty acids, total saturated g
1.052
0
0
4:0 g
0.000
0
0
6:0 g
0.000
0
0
8:0 g
0.000
0
0
10:0 g
0.000
0
0
12:0 g
0.000
0
0
14:0 g
0.009
0
0
16:0 g
0.717
0
0
18:0 g
0.318
0
0
Fatty acids, total monounsaturated g
2.339
0
0
16:1 undifferentiated g
0.057
0
0
18:1 undifferentiated g
2.272
0
0
20:1 g
0.004
0
0
22:1 undifferentiated g
0.000
0
0
Fatty acids, total polyunsaturated g
1.778
0
0
18:2 undifferentiated g
1.635
0
0
18:3 undifferentiated g
0.115
0
0
18:4 g
0.000
0
0
20:4 undifferentiated g
0.019
0
0
20:5 n-3 g
0.001
0
0
22:5 n-3 g
0.000
0
0
22:6 n-3 g
0.005
0
0
Cholesterol mg
65
0
0
*Other* Alcohol, ethyl g
0.0
0
0
Caffeine mg
0
0
0
Theobromine mg
0
0
0
Carotene, beta mcg
246
0
0
Carotene, alpha mcg
0
0
0
Cryptoxanthin, beta mcg
0
0
0
Lycopene mcg
0
0
0
Lutein + zeaxanthin mcg
0
0
0

There's also minerals, vitamins, unsaturated and saturated fats and lots of
Beta Carotene

If they're cheap, I'd feed them. But, I'd put them way back on the
introductory priority list, AFTER several types of protein variety and organ
variety.

The disadvantages?
1) They're loosening, so introduce them slowly. I don't feed whole meals of
eggs, just snacks of one or two at a time.
2) The SMELL! Egg farts can be eye stinging and room clearing. Think sulfur!
If it doesn't bother you, or your dog, then, OK.

They can be great fun, and amusement for you and your dog if you feed them
whole.
It doesn't matter if they eat the shells, or not.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/11/07, miensasis <kpmnlm@patmedia.net> wrote:
>
> Hi All...
>
> I was just wondering what effect raw eggs have on bowel habits? Are
> they equivalent of organs in the sense that they can cause runny poo?
> While my newbie wheatens are really just getting adjusted to chicken
> and bone....when would eggs eventually be introduced into the mix?
> After I get to the point of slowly introducing a variety of meat
> sources? Or along with?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nancy
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

"miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
> I was just wondering what effect raw eggs have on bowel habits?
Are
> they equivalent of organs in the sense that they can cause runny
poo?
*****
They should be fed to bowel tolerance and generally require gradual
introduction to the menu. Every new food merits gradual introduction
to the diet; most non-bony foods will cause loose stools if sprung
unaware on a dog. Eggs are no eggception.

Loose stools are not necessarily the sign of anything but too much:
too much new, too much fat, too much quantity. Start with one egg
and move along only as the dog's digestion says move.

While my newbie wheatens are really just getting adjusted to chicken
> and bone....when would eggs eventually be introduced into the mix?
*****
Eggs are good food and they are relatively species appropriate food
but they aren't required. I endorse them but pretty much forget to
feed them. You can feed a single egg now if you want. Eggs are
definitely a "when you want to" food item. If things get messier
than you would prefer, stop feeding eggs.

After I get to the point of slowly introducing a variety of meat
> sources? Or along with?
*****
Feed an egg while you're still in the chicken mode. In fact, I
recommend you also feed chicken liver and heart and gizzard (in
teensy introductory pieces) when you are still in the chicken mode.

In fact in fact, I recommend you add bits of pork and beef and
whatever else you got while you are still in the chicken mode.

Use chicken as a platform to build on, not jump off from.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:28 pm ((PDT))

> Feed an egg while you're still in the chicken mode. In fact, I
> recommend you also feed chicken liver and heart and gizzard (in
> teensy introductory pieces) when you are still in the chicken mode.
>
> In fact in fact, I recommend you add bits of pork and beef and
> whatever else you got while you are still in the chicken mode.
>
> Use chicken as a platform to build on, not jump off from.
> Chris O
>

Chris...

Thanks for the informative response. Your suggestion to look at
chicken as a platform to build on is so helpful and makes perfect sense!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Great Prices on chicken
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

The more time I spend with my mastiffs, the more I realized how foolish
it was to marry...

LOL

Kevin

Baby, Georgeanne & Baxter.
guardiansbythesea.com

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
Posted by: "angela182548" angela182548@yahoo.com angela182548
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:13 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

---
Thanks again for your help... The babies thank you!!
ok I am feeding a 70 lb shepherd/chow mix Charlie ~ a 50 lb
pit/beagle mix Lula Belle ~ 7mo old red nose about 30-35lbs Maycie

Tonight I went to the butcher and got turkey necks, gizzards, and
cows feet ...are cows feet ok? they are pretty cool lookin'...Do you
guys use the feet.. they are big...

Tonight I gave them each a turkey neck .. baby only ate half... and
I gave baby 2 gizzards and lula & charlie 3 gizzards. Is that ok?

When I give them boneless meat how much should I use?

Thanks for all of your help, Angela

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9.1. Re: Oil
Posted by: "debjmays" djmays1@alltel.net debjmays
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
I have been feeding raw for about 1 mth. I am happy with the results
thus far. I was going to start with fish oil. How much do I give my
dogs? I have two labs. One is 95 lbs and one is 45 lbs. I have the
1000mg fish oil softgels.

Thank you!

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Switching to "big"/Gorge-Fast
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

I have read several times that you ought to wait until your newbie dog
is accustomed to raw before you start to think about switching them to
either once a day feeding or the gorge/fast method. I know we're still
too new for this (he's only been on raw for three and a half weeks or
so) but I'm wondering how I figure out when he might be ready for that
sort of a switch. It sounds like something that would be so good for
him but I'd hate to rush him into something he wasn't ready for
(whenever that may be, hehe).

Also, someone mentioned getting tips on how to start to intruduce whole
prey to the dog. Mine eats whole *little* critters (basically the
cats' food, hehe) but I'm wondering if I'd need to ease him into, say,
bunnies? He eats rats and guinea pigs without the slightest hesitation
and they're furry and uncut. That said, would he likely happily chow
down on a while rabbit when I get him to that point?

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Switching to "big"/Gorge-Fast
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

i wait until it appears that they are reliably eating well with no
digestion problems. the bone vomit and mucus diarrhea have to be long
gone. and then i just go cold turkey to one meal a day. now my big
dog is every other day.

i've heard some people say that their dogs dislike rabbit because of
the very lean meat. i haven't tried furry whole prey yet, but it
sounds like your dog will probably do really well. i wish our co-op
offered whole furry meals!

-tammy

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "mandarini_gg" amanda.gasparini@gmail.com mandarini_gg
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

I'd go to the vet immediately, Not next week. Better safe than sorry.

Mandi

Messages in this topic (13)
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11b. Re: Wretching Dog
Posted by: "patrice_quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:37 pm ((PDT))

Mandi--I am happy to report that, after five days of touch and go,
Sadie barked yesterday for the first time since her choking incident
and cleared a bone that was lodged in her esophagus! She hasn't
gagged or retched since and is returning to her happy little self. I
am continuing to feed her cautiously for a couple of days and giving
her SEBP as Giselle suggested. We will continue to rawfeed but will
not be giving bones anymore. I'll be adding ground eggshells for now
and looking into bonemeal as a substitute to get them the calcium they
need.

Thank you ALL who responded, it's a wonderful comfort to have your
support, Patrice and Michael Quinn and "kids" Sadie, Sophie and Sammy

Messages in this topic (13)
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12a. Re: Is this normal??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:34 pm ((PDT))

>"bile and bone bits vomit", you'll see that lots of dogs experience this -

Hi,Casey. Yes,I knew that if bone was too much and could not handle amount of bone or too big to digest bone,it comes right up.

However,I was not too sure about hoaking up after hours from consumptions.

Thanks,

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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13a. Re: switching kitten to raw
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:36 pm ((PDT))

I'm kind of in the same situation as you, and I'm starting my little
feral baby on chicken, and later tuna and pork. As we speak she is
trying to get into my Dobie's crate while Grover munches on a lamb
leg. :) I considered putting the kitten in there when Grover's
finished and see how she does with a piece of meat and bone 100 times
the size of her. Maybe I will.

-Tammy

Messages in this topic (7)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12149

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
From: Stephanie Sorensen
1b. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
From: miensasis

2a. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: Jaala
2c. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: Kaitlin Fraser

3a. Is this normal??
From: Yasuko herron
3b. Re: Is this normal??
From: Sonja
3c. Re: Is this normal??
From: Yasuko herron
3d. Re: Is this normal??
From: Casey Post

4a. Re: Gathering Info.
From: T Smith
4b. Re: Gathering Info.
From: marclre
4c. Re: Gathering Info.
From: carnesbill
4d. Re: Gathering Info.
From: T Smith

5a. Re: no poop
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: duke needs to brush his teeth.
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Great Prices on chicken
From: Renate

8. BALANCED EATING
From: miensasis

9. QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: miensasis

10a. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
From: Melissa
10b. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Not Eating Much.....?
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Questions about Fish
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: switching kitten to raw
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

14a. Re: BONES TO CLEAN TEETH
From: Giselle

15. I am so confused...Please help
From: trayc2244

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi,

1. Some people have stated that they lay down old blankets or large towels in the kitchen or laundry area and make them stay there to eat. As long as you make sure they know they can't leave that space, that works too. You can just wash the blanket/towels when they're done.

I keep a wet dog towel nearby to wipe mouth and feet if necessary. Mine don't like to use their paws (they're both prima donnas), but one of mine buries her food when she is finished, so I need the towel to get the dirt off, if for nothing else.

2. I usually feed mine out on the back deck. I will probably do that no matter the weather, because it keeps the mess out of my house.

3. My girls usually require about 10 minutes to eat an entire chicken fryer (I have a 55-lb pit bull and a 65-lb lab). They don't gobble or gulp either. They methodically chew it all up and get it all down in that amount of time. Pork shoulders and a rack of beef ribs take significantly longer because the meat, skin and bones are tougher and take more work on their part. About half an hour is as long as it has taken them so far. The beef ribs take the longest, so just don't feed anything like that until you can relax and stick around long enough to supervise.

I hope that helps you in your research. Good luck!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

redshorty1959 <kphhp@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
Questions:

1. Ideas/experience for keeping the dog clean after eating (is it on
their feet, chest and chin??)

2. Ideas/experience where/how to feed so as to give them time to eat,
and not have a mess later.

3. How long does it take them to eat??? (I'm thinking 9-5 work
schedule here, no time to wait half hr while the dog devours his food
in a crate - type thing)

I am doing my research ahead of time. I do not have dogs yet. Cats
yes...(I am giving them ground raw on a plate)

thank you,
kathleen

---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:21 pm ((PDT))

Kathleen...

I'm still really new to raw (not quite 3 weeks) and can really relate
to your concerns because I had them as well. I can tell you that
they really turned out not to be such a big deal. Here is what I
found:

1. On keeping the dog clean after eating: Wheatens have full coats
and I was worried about raw food particles getting caught up in their
beards, but I'm surprised at how clean they are after eating. Plus,
both dogs do a great job of grooming each other's faces after
breakfast which is really cute and cool to watch. Plus...as someone
on this list pointed out to me...dogs lick their butts all the time,
so what's worse?

2. On where to feed to reduce mess: I was particulary challenged
because I live in a townhouse and do not have a true yard at my
disposal. Thus far I have served their chicken parts in their usual
kibble dishes on the linoleum kitchen floor. For the first couple of
days I had to supervise so they wouldn't try to escape the kitchen
and then drag the chicken quarter onto the couch, but they learned
real quick to eat in their usual breakfast spot. They'll usually
grab onto the part, pull it out of the dish, and work on it on the
floor next to the dish. They don't drag it around or anthing. When
they are done the floor (which is white) even looks clean to the
naked eye, but I wash the linoleum where they ate with vinegar and
water to remove any potential bacteria and the dishes go straight
into the dishwasher. You can also use a crate and then clean it with
vinegar and water when done. I've done that a couple of times as
well.

3. On how long it take to eat? I was surprised at how quickly they
eat. My dogs always took forever to eat their k***ble, so eating raw
seems like a breeze. My dogs are really thorough chewers and take
their time with their chicken quarters, etc.. but all in all it still
takes them less than 10 minutes to complete their meal. Unlike with
k***ble, I always supervise them until they are done but I look at it
this way--the extra time I invest in their feeding translates into
less time spent in bio breaks and cleanup. They poop and pee so
infrequently now, it is amazing!

Hope this is helpful...and good luck!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT))

"Jaala" <vaughanjaala@...> wrote:
Are you not worried about bloat (Gastric
> Dilatation-Volvulus)?
*****
With regard to feeding complicated, fully-engrossing, species
appropriate meals? Nope.

With regard to other potential issues in my dogs' lives, sure. I mean,
not enough to significantly limit their lifestyles but certainly enough
to discourage hyperactvity and to be aware of any propensity for bloat
in their pedigrees.

Bloat has been discussed quite thoroughly on Rawfeeding over the
years. You might want to access the archives and do some reading.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "Jaala" vaughanjaala@aol.com central_tx_angel04
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

**No, i'm not worried about bloat because all the bloat studies that
have been done were conducted on dogs fed kibble and do not apply to
raw fed dogs. Its like talking about the adverse effects of drinking
a quart of vodka and then advising people to not drink a quart of oj
because you might get light headed and stagger around**

Ok that does make sence, I just never thought of it that way. Since i
have deep chested dogs it has been pounded into me about big meals and
such but that was feeding kibble. Hmm...I wonder how my dogs would
take to that. One of my dogs is crazy when it comes to feeding, starts
foaming at the mouth and turns into dog from hell. Even with bigger
pieces of meat (chicken halfs, stuff that size) she just kinda bites
bites then swallows.
~Jaala

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

Bloat is generally a kibble based problem because kibble expands when in the
stomach and causes what they eat to get bigger... meat do not expand and are
easily disgested by a dog. The reason for small meals in for kibble more so
then anything else. Because a large meal of kibble expands a lot more then a
small meal causing more problems disgesting and more gasy of a dog( amazing
what you learn in class).

I've feb kibble in the past.... never had a bloat case but I have a lot more
problematic stomachs as far as being able to take them walking after a
meal.... My raw fed rest an hour or two... and no problem... kibble
feeders... if fed the large meal puke ever piece of it up. Because the
stomach gets upset because it's hard to digest.

Bloat isn't a raw fed problem... it's more so a kibble fed problem. Even
breeds who have major bloat problems... raw fed breeders havn't had the
cases that kibble feeders do even with percautions.

Chicken doesn't expand.... beef doesn't expand.... kibble does....

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC majorPTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with free Messenger emoticons. Check out
freemessengeremoticons.ca

Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Is this normal??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi,just a seconds ago,palette vomitted up yelloowish liquid with pinky nail size of solid stuff.

I told her it is ok to re-ate it and she picked the solid stuff and crunch crunch crunch..

I think it was bone piece.Bone I gaveher up to thistime is lamb neck bone yesterday night 7pm, and now is 5:30pm..little shy of 24hours later after consumption. Is it possible the bone comes out taking so long time out from mouth?

Another thing I can think of is..after she had breakfast around 7:30am, she was gnawing Deer Antler and little agressively than usual,and heard bit of cracking sound.So,she may have ate the bone of Antler too.

If the fragment in the vomit was Antler,then,it is after about 8-9hours from comsumption.

she did not eat liquid stuff so,I cleaned it.Not much liquid,maybe 2-3tbs worth of liquid..umm,maybe less,not big puddle or anything like that.

She is acting normal,running around and still like to hung around me so,I don't think she is sick.

Is this normal taking so long to vomit up waht she could not digest well?

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Is this normal??
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:20 pm ((PDT))

When my mom was watching our dog, she (the dog!) stole a corn cob out of the trash and my mom didn't get to her until half of it was consumed. She felt horrible about it but told us the whole story. Three days later, Kodie started horking something up in the middle of the night, and sure enough, it was a chunk of corn cob!

When she was a pup she used to eat her plastic dog house....the pieces would come up in 1, 2, or 3 days. So I would say a day's time is normal to hork something up that isn't digesting.

Then again, I could just have a weird dog....

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Is this normal??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:37 pm ((PDT))

>she (the dog!) stole a corn cob out of the trash and my mom didn't get to her until half of it >was consumed.

Hi,Sonja.Thanks for sharing your story. I did not poke the puke stuff to see what the stuff coming out,so,not sure what it was..

I think that if dog took about 1-3 days to hoak up stuff in your case,then,it maybe normal to hoak up something from day before i guess,then.

>Three days later, Kodie started horking something up in the middle of the night, and
>sure enough, it was a chunk of corn cob!

thanks,

yassy

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Is this normal??
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:51 pm ((PDT))

> Is this normal taking so long to vomit up waht she could not digest well?

Yassy,

Yes, a normal and healthy response to something that hasn't digested
properly in that time. If you go back through the archives searching on
"bile and bone bits vomit", you'll see that lots of dogs experience this -
especially early on and with bone heavy foods/treats.

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

On 10/11/07, Lynette Friedrichs <lraefried@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> <snip> The chicken in the grocery stores seems to contain 12% broth
> solutions. How do you find chicken that isnt filled with this?
>

I figure the 'other' stuff *ki***e* has so much crap in it that the chicken
is better off no matter what!!

> <snip>When feeding raw, do any of you ever give your dogs your food while
> you are eating? Like bits of toast or french fries?
>

I give them many things I eat. They are our own pets & what I gather from
this list is that there are people who do things similar but in their own
ways. I will NOT gorge my dogs, not fast them unless medically necessary,
never feed a whole animal or head......but that doesn't mean that they nor
myself are wrong.
I even shared some yogurt with my Dane today. Not alot, but a bit.
I don't think you can go so wrong with a fry or two. but I am new to raw!
Trina
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

"The chicken in the grocery stores seems to contain 12% broth solutions. How do you find
chicken that isnt filled with this? Also, I spotted some little Cornish game hens that were
not filled with solution." "When feeding raw, do any of you ever give your dogs your food
while you are eating? Like bits of toast or french fries?"

***Hi Lynette

Check whether there are any rawfeeding coops in your general area as you can usually
really increase variety and lower cost that way. Start off with just the one protein (chicken's
a good candidate) and move on to include as much variety as possible.

You may be able to locate a range-fed chicken producer nearby which is the very best kind
of chicken you can feed.

If that's not possible then look for chickens that are whole (everything still attached inside)
and as unprocessed as possible Ie. without broth. I sometimes get pretty good deals on
chicken at my local Target Superstore but they're not range fed and unfortunately
generally gutted. Otherwise nothing added.

Cornish game hens are perfectly fine in addition to or instead of chicken but they can be
pricey.

I personally never share anything I'm actually in the process of munching on with my dog
or any other dogs in my care - however this is a behavioural issue rather than a health
concern. I definitely wouldn't make stuff like bread & potatoes a staple component of your
dog's diet but the odd yummy french fry or delicious bit of buttered toast certainly aint
gonna kill him ;) Bit like us ;);)

Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lynette Friedrichs
<lraefried@...> wrote:
>
> The chicken in the grocery stores seems to contain 12%
> broth solutions. How do you find chicken that isnt filled
> with this?

It's no big deal. I don't worry about it. Someitmes I feed
enhanced chicken and sometimes its not. Neither me or the dogs can
tell the difference. Its BROTH! Its not harmful in the least.
Many people feed their dogs broth without it being on the chicken.

> When feeding raw, do any of you ever give your dogs your
> food while you are eating? Like bits of toast or french fries?

It's not all that harmful but it's a LOT more harmful than feeding
enhanced chicken. I don't know why you would consider feeding
greasy french fries and bread and be concerned about enhanced
chicken at the same time. Eventhough it's not harmful, its a bad
habit to get into and best avoided. Feeding them the same things
AFTER the meal is much more preferable.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

>
> Thank you,
> Lynette
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4d. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

On the packages I get it says:

"No preserves
No additives
Federal government prohibits the use of steroids or hormones in chickens"

How would I know about this broth additive you are all discussing?
I don't see it on there. either way, I've purchased 2 freezers full of
chicken....couple hundred pounds... won't last long when these guys eat over
10 pounds a day....
And with the sale going on at .46/lb for 10/lb bags, I will keep stocking
up :-) As long as they have it.
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: no poop
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

"rawnewfie" <rawnewfie@...> wrote:
Last night she
> had a big meal sliced pork toungue, some chicken gizzard and a
little chicken livers. after
> dinner went for a walk, she tried to go and two little rabbit
turds. today no poop.
*****
Seems pretty obvious to me that the intake was easily and fully
digested.

this is now
> well over 30 hours without defecating.
*****
Some years ago I boarded one of my Labs (then kibblefed) for a week
and she didn't poop the entire time she was there because she was
expected to poop in her kennel and no way was she going to. She
defecated five count 'em five times the day I picked her up. Heck,
if a kibblefed dog can find it in herself not to poop for a week and
live to tell about it, I myself would not worry about 30 hours.
That's not even close to two days. Highly bio-available food is
highly digestible.

Tonight my new Newfoundland puppy arrived. I fed
> them both rice with a little bit 1/2 cup of milk over it, and some
chicken livers.
*****
Boy, if that's not a recipe for digestive upheaval I don't know what
is. You have an interesting take on species appropriate.

I know the
> group is against any grain at all. But I wanted to try and get
things moving for the retriever,
> and frankly I don't know what to give this 8 week old pup.
*****
Well, as I am sure others have already told you--what you feed an
eight week old pup is not rice and milk, and should include mere bits
(if any at all) of liver.

I don't think there's much in your retriever to get moving!
Certainly feeding a bony meal will help bulk things up, and if indeed
things that should be moving aren't, a largish dose of liver or fish
oil or even olive oil will lube the tubes. What perhaps you need to
do is contemplate the fundamental difference between kibble
ingredients and the "ingredients" in a species appropriate diet.

> I have heard from several sources that newfies are historically fed
on some sort of meal
> meaning porridge or something.
*****
And I have heard from several--reputable--sources that worms are
caused by spontaneous generation and October is earthquake season
here in California! It's simply amazing what some people will say,
and it's equally amazing what some people will believe.

Please don't respond with that dogs are 99% wolf DNA.
*****
Ah, that must be because you aren't completely up on your reading,
yes? No question that anyone who has been paying attention knows
that dogs are in fact wolves. Thousands of years of human
intervention is squat when it comes to effecting the sort of
physiological changes you have in mind. Your conclusions need some
attention I fear.

Have you been reading William Cusick?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (24)
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6a. Re: duke needs to brush his teeth.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:06 pm ((PDT))

>
> I haven't seen any responses that include the 'yarn bone'...maybe
since
> it isn't a raw item, but considering your post and some talk about
> towel shredding, I would think getting a yarn bone from your local
pet
> store would be a great way for you dog to floss.
*****
Except for the big galoot Lab my dogs pluck yarn bones apart. Yarn
is nothing. I have tried rope knots, they are plucked. I have even
tried rope monkey puzzle knots (which have no loose ends and by all
rights ought to be impervious). Not. Even the BC when she was a pup
would dismantle monkey puzzle knots, although at least it took her
several days. The big galoot Lab just carries his around like the
good retriever he is.

A big old slab of beef ribs works fine if the dog doesn't have access
to whole hairy prey. Anything with lots of sinew is Ma Nature's own
dental floss.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. Re: Great Prices on chicken
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:36 pm ((PDT))

Are you in Canada and do you mean SAANs?
Renate

On 10/11/07, T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but we are getting
> chicken thigh/quarters meat on sale for a week now at .49 at 10 lbs
> bags....
> It's at a store called SAARs. I'm not sure if this is a chain or not since
> I am on an island. My husband has been picking up all but one pack at
> night
> to stock up..... he says he likes to leave one for other people :-) I'm
> greedy on good deals lol
> Trina
> --
> Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
> Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
> Louie (hearing Great Dane)
> Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
> Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
> Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8. BALANCED EATING
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi....

I know that its the balance of meat/skin/connective tissue, organs,
and bone that forms the perfect nutritional balance for this way of
raw eating. I've been seeing posts that its balance over time that
really counts, but some have posted that they think the amount of
bone they feed can be actually be more like 25-30% over the long-
term. I was wondering---what is the most nutritionally important of
the 3 components? I know we try to achieve the 80-10-10 (w/5% liver)
ratio, but if you were to err on the side of a little more of one of
the dietary components, which is the healthiest one to do more of and
least nutritive one to do less of? Also, does anyone know what the
long-term effects would be of feeding a diet consistently with more
than the 10% of bone?

I'm really new to this and really just sticking as close as possible
to the suggested ratio with chicken meat on the the bone and the
occasional organ for the time being (I am for sure feeding bone
probably more in the 20-25% range to my newbie dogs since I do a lot
of leg quarters and split bone-in breasts or quartered whole
chickens), but these are questions I have as I read the posts and
think about feeding my dogs raw over the long term.

Thanks,

Nancy

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9. QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi All...

I was just wondering what effect raw eggs have on bowel habits? Are
they equivalent of organs in the sense that they can cause runny poo?
While my newbie wheatens are really just getting adjusted to chicken
and bone....when would eggs eventually be introduced into the mix?
After I get to the point of slowly introducing a variety of meat
sources? Or along with?

Thanks,

Nancy

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10a. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
Posted by: "Melissa" mwood8402@yahoo.com mwood8402
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:03 pm ((PDT))

I use chickens for my bone source. I typically feed through whole
chickens, but will get chicken parts if I find them on sale. I
usually get some kind of turkey meat. Turkey bones are partially
edible for my 20 pounder. So it serves as a source of a bit of bone
and some meaty meat. I almost always get pork shoulder and feed that
at a meaty meal. Then, I try to get something more "exotic" for
variety. Like duck, rabbit, emu, quail, fish. I toss in whatever
organs I can find and ta da! I usually feed one boney meal and one
meaty meal a day. I include organs with boney meals. I hope that helps.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angela182548" <angela182548@...>
wrote:
> I was hoping that I could get a few examples of your weekly (or a few
> days) feedings.

Messages in this topic (5)
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10b. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT))

"angela182548" <angela182548@...> wrote:
>> I was hoping that I could get a few examples of your weekly (or a
few
> days) feedings
*****
Angela, when you ask for examples, it's a good idea to tell us what
size dog you are feeding, age, and any health issues you may have to
address. What I feed my 85lb Lab might not be relevant to what
someone feeds a 5lb toy poodle!

Yesterday I fed my "big" retrievers chuck roast and green tripe.
Tomorrow they will get whole chickens. Today they got nothing.
Yesterday my border collie also ate chuck roast and green tripe;
today she got a leg quarter; I don't know what I'll fed her
tomorrow. When she's older she'll start eating big every other day
if it works for her. For now, she gets fed once a day.

Recently I fed lamb breasts, turkey quarters, pork shoulder, lamb
trim, beef trim, venison, beef heart, salmon steaks (border collie
and cat only).

I am sitting here getting ready to toss the veggie
> mush and start over per your advice
*****
TOSS that veggie mush! Set yourself free, Lee! The last time I fed
veggies was, um, well, it was last week actually when I dumped on the
floor the somewhat soggy remains of a bag of salad mix. Seemed a
waste to just throw the stuff out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. Re: Not Eating Much.....?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Meredith Soriano <mom2mytwinz@...> wrote:>
> My dog Chloe is not eating very much....she is a chi-poo and 4-6
lbs.
*****
What does "not very much" mean to you? Your expectations may be
kibble based. A 6lb dogster in good health might suck down as much
as five ounces of food a day or perhaps as little as three ounces.
Do these small amounts represent what she's eating?

> Also I caught her eating a piece of chicken from days ago
outsde...is that ok?
*****
If it's still raw, it's still okay. If it's cooked or dried out,
well not so okay. But these found treasures may be diminishing her
appetite. Perhaps you might want to check the premises for other
stashes, and monitor her meals if you don't want her saving some for
later.

As far as eating outside goes, there's nothing wrong with it as long
as the area is safe for the dog.

> Any other food (RAW) suggestions that I can try on her?
*****
Oh my. There are thousands of messages in the archives dealing with
that question. Even if you were to narrow your search to "small
dogs" or "small breed" or "toy breeds" you could find more than
enough information to build a shopping list with.

For pictures (I believe there are small dogs available for your
viewing pleasure) of recipes and of dogs eating the recipes, check out
<http://rawfeddogs.net>
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Questions about Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:22 pm ((PDT))

"susrob061174" <susrob061174@...> wrote:
>
> I believe the reasoning for freezing the fish is to kill any worms,
> bataria lurking on or in the fish.
*****
Bacteria don't all up and die. Some do, some just doze off till
things warm up again. Freezing is for parasite control.

The only fish I heard not the
> feed your dog is the Northern Pacfic Salmon.
*****
Actually, "northern Pacific Salmon" are probably okay, depending I
guess on how you define "northern Pacific". Southern Alaskan waters
may offer up infected salmon, but further north the salmon are okay.
OTOH, that area might be Arctic Ocean, not Pacific.

> Yes, The dog is getting it Omega's and a varity of meat.
*****
Not all fish provide meaningful levels of Omega 3. For those looking
to feed high O3 fish, there are many websites to refer to.

Just picture yourself as a wolf and what
> they would eat, wheather its hunting or a salvenger.
*****
Well, better perhaps to picture your dog as a wolf! But that would
be the right notion, absolutely!
Chris O

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13a. Re: switching kitten to raw
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT))

Yikes, and I thought $4 for a pound of rabbit was bad! At least I can get
about 2 meals for all 3 cats from that. I've been buying mine from somebody at a
local farmer's market, which is also where I get beef heart, one of my
staples--at $2 a pound. (All meat has taurine in it, but heart has the most, and
cats can't manufacture their own taurine.).

One of my local groceries has frog legs fairly often, in the fish section.
They are packaged 2 pairs for about $4 and that will be one meal for my 3
cats, so we don't do a lot of that. :)

Lynda

In a message dated 10/11/2007 9:53:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, "Kristen"
writes:

I was wondering where you get frog legs?

I'm trying to find a rabbit breeder in the Toronto area (meat - not pet
rabbits) but I'm having trouble and I just can't spend $18 on a little
thing at the grocer ;-)

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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14a. Re: BONES TO CLEAN TEETH
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:50 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Angela!
TYVM! ^_^

Chicken bones are pretty soft. That is why most of us experienced raw
feeders recommend that new-to-raw feeders start their dogs with chicken for
all but the tiniest of dogs and pups.

There has been a spate of "HELP, my dog choked on a bone!" topics on this
list recently. Virtually ALL of them have been posted by people new to raw.
Dogs choke - unless they are VERY new to raw, its rarely a problem. As dogs
gain experience, IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO without interference (but with a
watchful eye) by their owners, and provided with species appropriate foods,
they soon relax about mealtime and learn how BIG a chunk is too big to
swallow. A lot of choking 'problems' are not problems at all, just a dog
experimenting with what works. Some choking problems are caused by too small
portions for the size of a dog - the solution? Bigger portions, not holding
it, nor cutting it smaller. When a dog swallows a too small portion, or a
part with a bone with a sharp edge, it can cause a cut or scrape in the
mouth or esophagus. This can cause irritation and/or swelling and discomfort
- so the dog won't eat, because it hurts. Providing plenty of fresh water,
low sodium broth and maybe some Slippery Elm Bark Powder to soothe and
reduce irritation for a day or two, and a few boneless meals (which he
should get plenty of, anyway) is usually all that is needed for the dog to
get back to regular meals. I think if a bone were lodged in a dog's throat,
that it would cause such swelling that the airway would close up. It happens
with kibble, it happens with too-small-for-the-dog balls, it happens with
household objects the dog shouldn't have access to, its not just about raw
food. We just have to be ready by supervising mealtimes, like we would do
with a child, to sweep the mouth, and throat or push down or pull up,
anything that just doesn't fit right.

What to remember is that; 1) People aren't going to post on the list every
day, if its just a hohum, SOSO, raw feeding day. Its not the nature of the
beast. ^_^
2) People come looking for , or are referred to, this list because they
need help and reassurance. For whatever reasons, even though they KNOW raw
feeding is best, they either don't have the knowledge or the confidence to
feed raw.
3) People post when something happens that they don't understand, or have
the experience to think through.
4) This list has 10,000 members! Not all of them post every day or even
every week, not even some of them. Why? Because they got what they needed,
and check in only occasionally. Some post Qs on raw chat.
5) This list represents a VERY small part of the people who are online, all
over the world, who feed raw successfully every day. They never found the
list, never needed it, or aren't online. They aren't vocal, except to
friends and neighbors or relatives, don't advertise, don't have a website or
blog. (although there are plenty that do), have no axe to grind. They just
happily, quietly, feed their dogs a species appropriate raw diet.

If you can get on the other side of a few weeks of feeding appropriately
sized meals with bone, your dog will be well on his way to being an
experienced eater of raw! And you will be a lot more experienced and
confident feeder of raw, too!
A link to an archived message about dog/wolf dentition;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301
Eggs is eggs. Good nutrition. But not a meal in itself, at least not at my
house. My reasons?
1) Eggs can be loosening. Entire meals of eggs can be VERY loosening. I feed
one or two a week as a snack meal.
2) The SMELL. Eggs can cause a dog to become very aromatic, room or house
clearingly so. The more eggs, usually the stronger the odor and the longer
it lasts. If it doesn't do this to your dog, well, then, OK.
Shells - some dogs eat 'em, some dogs don't. some dogs eat 'em sometimes. Or
not. Doesn't matter.
There are great fun to feed whole, tho'. Put a whole egg in front of a dog
and watch him figure out what to do with it!

Ah, the good ole barfie veggie glop - NOT! Dogs are carnivores, they have
not evolved to derive nourishment from vegetable matter. A few hundred, or
thousand years of living along side of humans cannot change that. Fresh,
frozen, cooked, or just whizzed up in a food processor, no veggies, nor
grains, nor fruits are species appropriate for dogs. Save your time, save
your money. Dogs have only been fed processed cr*p-in-a-bag since the
beginning of the 20th century. MOST dogs in the USA have only been fed
Doom Nuggets since the '50s, when tv ads became prevalent. That's not
evolution, thats commerce!
http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2004/09/history-of-dog-food.html
http://www.petfoodinstitute.org/petfoodhistory.htm

Dogs ARE wolves, as much as some people want to deny it, whether to line
their pockets, or to promote some fanaticism, or from pure wrong headedness.

wiki says, in part;

** DOG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

Conservation status

Domesticated

Scientific classification

Domain: Eukaryota

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Mammalia

*Order: Carnivora*

Family: Canidae

Genus: Canis

Species: C. lupus

Subspecies: C. l. familiaris

Trinomial name

Canis lupus familiaris

Wolf ancestors

Although all wolves belong to the species Canis lupus, there are (or were)
many subspecies that had developed a distinctive appearance, social
structure, and other traits. For example, the Japanese Wolf and the Eastern
Timber Wolf possess different distinctive coloration, hunting and social
structures. The origin of the dog is so ancient and so worldwide that many
varieties of wolf played a part in it. It is wrong to say that dogs
descended from modern wolves. They descended from ancestral wolves, and this
difference must always be kept in mind. Ancestral wolves of many varieties
existed all over the world.

The Indian Wolf is thought to have contributed to the development of more
breeds of dogs than other subspecies. Many of today's wild dogs, such as the
dingo and the pariah dogs, are descended from this wolf. The Indian Wolf is
also thought to have bred with descendants of the European wolf to create
the Mastiffs and eventually leading to the development of such diverse
breeds as the Pug, the Saint Bernard, and the Bloodhound. The Tibetan
Mastiff is an example of an ancient breed.

The European wolf, in turn, may have contributed many of its attributes to
the Spitz dog types, most terriers, and many of today's sheepdogs. The
Chinese wolf is probably ancestor to the Pekingese and toy spaniels,
although it is also probable that descendants of the Chinese and European
wolves encountered each other over the millennia, contributing to many of
the oriental toy breeds.

The Eastern Timber Wolf is a direct ancestor to most, if not all, of the
North American northern sled dog types. This interbreeding still occurs with
dogs living in the Arctic region, where the attributes of the wolf that
enable survival in a hostile environment are valued by humans. Additionally,
unintentional crossbreeding occurs simply because dogs and wolves live in
the same environment. The general reproductive isolation which is required
to define dogs and wolves as separate species is purely a result of lack of
opportunity, stemming from a general mutual unfamiliarity, suspicion,
mistrust, and fear.
The phenotypic characteristics that distinguish a wolf from a dog are
tenuous. Wolves typically have a "brush tail" and erect ears. While some dog
breeds possess one of these characteristics, they rarely possess both.

** WOLF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf

Conservation status

Least Concern [1]

Scientific classification

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Mammalia

*Order: Carnivora*

Family: Canidae

Genus: Canis

Species: C. lupus

Binomial name

Canis lupus

The Gray Wolf (Canis lupus), also known as the Timber Wolf or, simply, Wolf,
is a mammal of the order Carnivora. The Gray Wolf is the largest member of
the genus Canis. Its shoulder height ranges from 0.6 to 0.9 meters (26–36
inches) and its weight typically varies between 32 and 62 kilograms (70–135
pounds). As evidenced by DNA sequencing and genetic drift studies, the gray
wolf shares a common ancestry with the domestic dog (Canis lupus
familiaris). [2]

Relation to the dog

Much debate has centered on the relationship between the wolf and the
domestic dog, though most authorities see the wolf as the dog's direct
ancestor. Others postulate that dogs descend from the Golden Jackal. Because
the canids have evolved recently and different canids interbreed readily,
untangling the true relationships has been difficult.

**** But molecular systematics now indicate very strongly that domestic
dogs and wolves are more closely related than either is to any other canid,
and the domestic dog is now normally classified as a subspecies of the wolf:
Canis lupus familiaris. ****

The main differences between wolves and domestic dogs are that wolves have,
on average, 20% larger brains, better immune systems, a better sense of
smell, and are generally much larger than domestic dogs.[4

**Coyote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote

Conservation status

Least Concern [1]

Scientific classification

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Mammalia**

*Order: Carnivora*

Family: Canidae

Genus: Canis

Species: C. latrans

Diet and hunting

Coyotes are versatile carnivores with a 90% mammalian diet. They primarily
eat small mammals, such as eastern cottontails, thirteen-lined ground
squirrels, and white-footed mice, though they will occasionally eat birds,
snakes, large insects and other large invertebrates. Though they will
consume large amounts of carrion, they tend to prefer fresh meat. Part of
the coyote's success as a species is it's dietary adaptability. As such,
coyotes have been known to readily eat human garbage and household pets.
Fruits and vegetables are a significant part of the coyote's diet in the
autumn and winter months.[2]

Coyotes will sometimes mate with domestic dogs, usually in areas like Texasand
Oklahoma where the coyotes are plentiful and the breeding season is extended
because of the warm weather. The resulting hybrids called coydogs maintain
the coyote's predatory nature, along with the dog's lack of timidity toward
humans, making them a usually more serious threat to livestock than pure
blooded animals. This cross breeding has the added effecct of confusing the
breeding cycle. Coyotes usually breed only once a year, while coydogs will
breed year-round, producing many more pups than a wild coyote. A
distinguishable feature in a coydog is the ears and tail.[9]

Coyotes have also been known on occasion to mate with wolves. The offspring,
known as a coywolf is generally intermediate in size to both parents, being
larger than a pure coyote, but smaller than a pure wolf. A study showed that
of 100 coyotes collected in Maine, 22 had half or more wolf ancestry, and
one was 89 percent wolf. A theory has been proposed that the large eastern
coyotes in Canada are actually hybrids of the smaller western coyotes and
wolves that met and mated decades ago as the coyotes moved toward New
England from their earlier western ranges.[8] The red wolf is considered by
some to be a wolf/coyote hybrid, due to its habit of readily mating with
coyotes and the fact that it carries no unique genetic trait that would make
it distinct from coyotes and grey wolves.[10]

Canidae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae

scientific classification

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Mammalia

Order: Carnivora

Suborder: Caniformia

Family: Canidae

G. Fischer de Waldheim, 1817

Genera

* Alopex

* Atelocynus

* Canis

* Cerdocyon

* Chrysocyon

* Cuon

* Cynotherium †

* Dusicyon †

* Dasycyon †

* Fennecus (Part of Vulpes)

* Lycalopex (Part of Pseudalopex)

* Lycaon

* Nyctereutes

* Otocyon

* Pseudalopex

* Speothos

* Urocyon

* Vulpes

TMI?

TC
Giselle

On 10/11/07, angela182548 <angela182548@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> -Thanks so much Giselle ~ You are awesome...great info...makes things
> a little clearer. How do you feel about chicken bones and raw eggs?
> what about veggie mush? I juice the veggies and fruit first and then
> put everything in the food processor. ???
>

Thanks so much, Angela
>
>

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15. I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:57 pm ((PDT))

Thanks,
Tracy

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