Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 27, 2007

Thursday, September 27, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12086

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: New to Raw
From: costrowski75
1.2. Re: New to Raw
From: briargarden07
1.3. Re: New to Raw
From: Yasuko herron
1.4. Re: New to Raw
From: Michelle Grabert

2a. Questions about Pork
From: Delinda Harmon
2b. Re: Questions about Pork
From: Denise Strother
2c. Re: Questions about Pork
From: carnesbill
2d. Re: Questions about Pork
From: katkellm
2e. Re: Questions about Pork
From: katkellm

3.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: briargarden07

4a. Re: 2yr old dog new to raw, sick
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Chickens and Ducks
From: Denise Strother

6a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: djpohn

7a. Re: raw beginner
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: Loraine Jesse

9a. ADMIN/Re: Demodex
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: puking pets
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Demodex
From: Denise Strother

12a. Re: Getting the cat on board
From: Anita Wright

13a. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: Denise Strother

14. {Raw Feeding} Seizures
From: Brandi Bryant

15a. Re: New to the group/questions
From: Denise Strother

16a. Re: raw meat only
From: Denise Strother

Messages
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1.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

"aliciamyan" <alicia_larson@...> wrote:
We usually butcher 2 to 4 steer at a
> time and our customers almost never want the "extras", which means
I'll
> need another freezer!
*****
Oh, many freezers, for sure! One can never be too rich or too thin or
have too many freezers. Merril I think has seven now. All that lovely
trim...umm, umm good.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (39)
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1.2. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "briargarden07" briargarden07@yahoo.com briargarden07
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:13 pm ((PDT))

Now she is my
> best eater (still throws up hamburger) and is looking so good (she
> always looked so sad before). The best change is in doing the doggie
> doo-doo scooping--NO SMELL!!!!! My 10-year-old Irish is playing like
> a pup and his teeth are whitening up and his breath has improved
> beyond belief.

Hi! I just wanted to say that I can relate so much to your above
statement :) Its been years since I first switched to raw, but my now 7
yr old Beagle was probably about 12 months old when he had his first
raw meal. As a pup he'd been on Pukanuba, and he'd had a long, drawn
out, painful case of Pano, poor guy. A few DAYS after switching to raw,
one of my neighbors who loved to fuss over this dog, lol, gave me the
greatest proof that this diet was the way to go. It was almost ver
batum what you mentioned in your post. He told me that this dog always
looked sad before, but today, he finally seemed happy. He had no idea
we'd changed the food ...
Good luck with raw!

Noelle

Messages in this topic (39)
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1.3. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

>I gave my dogs beef ribs last night for the first time and that is
>exactly what they did...ate the meat/cartilage and left the bones!

Hi. I think it depends on how tired the dog is at that time and ability of jaw strength.

I alread fed all protin sources I like to keep one round and,I am on second round,but when it was on first round,my dog corgi consumed all Neck bones and ribs that she got.
A couple of times,she left pinky finger sized bone but that is about it.

oh,no, that is not right.She could not eat ox tail bone at all although she can gnaw and get some bits off from the end.

at first round, since i did not want to give her all feeding size amount at one sitting right off the bat,so,I fed 2 feedings per day and let her adjust to raw meat.

Now,the second round,I am trying to increase one of the two meal size little bigger and the other smaller and trying to work on it and,I decided to give her once a month pleasure to her which is big amount aday and snack next day.

I know that if I feed huge hunk of meat but still bone inside,I thnk by the time she gets to bone,she eating too much and I worry I would end up diarrhea dog,so,I started with long boned Beef rib slab.7-9inch length bone so,it is pretty big in size.It was not bare bone kind of rib and there were enough Meat in slab considering I take bone away if she ate too much of bone from it.And even if she ate all meat off from ribs,not as bad,I thought.Mostly weight is that much due bone I thought.

I gave her about 2lb -3lb slab. it was funny to see she was staring at me and licking the meat,staring at me,licking the meat... I already told palette "ok" and released her to start eating as usual but I guess size of meal got her startled or something.

She finally dived in and it was funny to see how she tuckling ribs.She worked on both sideof ribs and then she put her head in between the ribs trying to chew off the end tendon(?) that still connecting the rib togeher and it was so funny.

This time, she did not eat rib bones while on first round when I gave her short ribs with 3 inches or 2 inches of meat on it,she ate all bone but not this one.

Maybe, too tired from morning walk and tuckling more than before or what,she did not eat the bone,just some edge. So,I traded this bone with chicken feet and she was happy.

After letting her out from kitchen,she soon lay on side and then,on back rubbing on carpet with some mourning with delightful smile and she took a bit of nap that day.

I was wondering if I encounter poo problems but I didn't.Maybe bit softer than usual but not much.

That big meal night,she slept like a baby so deep and,she did not wake up with garage door opening when my husband came home in the next morning.Usually,she notice and bark likecrazy andwake me up from inside the crate.

Really,big meal like this or the meal that needs work out make dog more tired and satisfied I think.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (39)
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1.4. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

I have to say, I am not sure who enjoys raw feeding more, my dogs or me. I look forward to giving it to them everyday as much as they enjoy getting it. This is my favorite thing about it aside from the pleasureable feeling of knowing I am doing something good for them. michelle

briargarden07 <briargarden07@yahoo.com> wrote: Now she is my
> best eater (still throws up hamburger) and is looking so good (she
> always looked so sad before). The best change is in doing the doggie
> doo-doo scooping--NO SMELL!!!!! My 10-year-old Irish is playing like
> a pup and his teeth are whitening up and his breath has improved
> beyond belief.

Noelle

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (39)
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2a. Questions about Pork
Posted by: "Delinda Harmon" dharmon@homenetnw.net delinda_harmon
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:11 pm ((PDT))

The packing plant today where I get meat for my babies, almost refused to
give my pork offal, because they don't want to be responsible for my dogs
getting sick. I have read many times of the members of this site feeding
pork. Is there anything I should be aware of?

Also, if a dog is raw fed, and mine are of course, would the be prone to
taking down farm animals. I have an english mastiff and a boxer. People tell
me that now my dogs have a taste for blood and cannot live near farms or
ranches.

Anyone on here ever have a problem?

Thank you,
Delinda

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Questions about Pork
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

<The packing plant today where I get meat for my babies, almost
refused to give my pork offal, because they don't want to be
responsible for my dogs getting sick. I have read many times of the
members of this site feeding pork. Is there anything I should be aware
of?

Yes, that people talk a lot about things when they don't know what
they are talking about. My 3 dogs and my son's girlfriend's dog just
finishes an 8lb shoulder roast that they have been eating on for
several days.

<Also, if a dog is raw fed, and mine are of course, would the be prone
to taking down farm animals. I have an english mastiff and a boxer.
People tell me that now my dogs have a taste for blood and cannot live
near farms or ranches. Anyone on here ever have a problem?

No. I don't think my dogs would connect their pork roast with a live
pig, or their lamb head with a live lamb, etc. They might chase a
chicken, pig, goat, etc.; but not because the see dinner. They will
chase a cat if it runs too, but they've never eaten one. Denise

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Questions about Pork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Delinda Harmon" <dharmon@...>
wrote:
>
> I have read many times of the members of this site feeding
> pork. Is there anything I should be aware of?

Yes, you should be aware that pork is very good to feed your dogs.
It's nutritious, easily digested, and the bones are relatively soft.

> Also, if a dog is raw fed, and mine are of course, would the
> be prone to
> taking down farm animals.

Nope.

> I have an english mastiff and a boxer. People tell
> me that now my dogs have a taste for blood and cannot live
> near farms or ranches.

I've heard that too. It's not true. There is a cattle farm right
next door to me seperated by a barb wire fence. The dogs can get
through the barb wire with no problem but they don't. Well ... Abby
does occasionally when she's chasing a deer but never to chase
cows. I always wonder what would happen if she finally did catch a
deer. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

>
> Anyone on here ever have a problem?
>
> Thank you,
> Delinda
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: Questions about Pork
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Delinda Harmon" <dharmon@...> wrote:
>
I have an english mastiff and a boxer. People tell
> me that now my dogs have a taste for blood and cannot live near farms or
> ranches.

Hi Delinda,
No, there is no truth to this. Prey drive is prey drive and dogs that
have a high prey drive have it based on lots of factors, none of which
include being raw fed. I live on thoroughbred horse farm. We foal
mares and raise babies. I have a dog, rescued as a 6ish week old pup
from a garbage dump whose mother was a jindo dog that had taken to
running with a pack of coyotes-the suspected father. AC came, took the
pups which were destroyed because they were considered unsafe to
adopt. Well, they missed one puppy, dh brought him home, and he is
now 3 years old. Sid was kibble fed his first year-didn't know any
better--and he had tons of prey drive, tried to take down foals, take
down anything on a bike, eat the neighbor's dog... You get the idea,
lots of training issues

Messages in this topic (5)
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2e. Re: Questions about Pork
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi Delinda,
No, there is no truth to this. Prey drive is prey drive and dogs that
have a high prey drive have it based on lots of factors, none of which
include being raw fed. I live on thoroughbred horse farm. We foal
mares and raise babies. I have a dog, rescued as a 6ish week old pup
from a garbage dump whose mother was a jindo dog that had taken to
running with a pack of coyotes-the suspected father. AC came, took the
pups which were destroyed because they were considered unsafe to
adopt. Well, they missed one puppy, dh brought him home, and he is
now 3 years old. Sid was kibble fed his first year-didn't know any
better--and he has tons of prey drive. We worked through lots of lets
eat the cat,down a foal or steal a lamb type issues, and he learned
what he could chase and what belonged to me. He became an excellent
farm/family dog. Since i started raw feeding, he has not reverted to
his bad boy ways. He didn't go crazy and forgot the rules and start
to attack things. People say lots of things that just plain and
simple ain't true. KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
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3.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "briargarden07" briargarden07@yahoo.com briargarden07
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:14 pm ((PDT))

> The puppies are related but very distantly. I thougth the same thing
> as you did about the house and stuff. Puppies just don't get it that
> young and that violent and strange form. I have nothing in the house
> that a puppy can chew on that is not safe, only dog toys, bones and
> raw hide from the pet store. Dogs never run around unattended. So all
> I can suspect is food and/or water or cheimicals I use to clean the
> floor.
>
>

I was just about to ask this very question when I saw someone else
already beat me to it. I am curious as to exactly why you would suspect
diet is making your dogs sick when, since you mention they are
distantly related, you are not taking GENETICS into account here?
Obviously, this pup is the same breed as your last dog. Were they both
from the same breeder? Can you find out if the dogs in your pup's
vertical pedigree are dying of cancer? This means the siblings of your
dogs sire, dam, grandparents, ect. You need to contact this breeder and
let her know of your concerns, and demand, oh yeah, DEMAND she give you
references of owners who have siblings of your dogs sire & dam, and
those who have full or half littermates to your pup.
As a breeder myself, I can tell you that far too often genetic
disease is swept under the carpet by breeders AND pet owners. If I had
a dog of the same breed, especially one that shared common ancestors in
a 3-4 gen pedigree, I'd be focusing my suspicions on genetics. Don't
tell yourself that a dog a few generations back, especially if there
was inbreeding or close linebreeding, will not contribute any to the
health and temperament of your pup. These problems have to come from
somewhere, and you already know they are distantly related.
What you need to do is call the breeder and let her know of your
suspicions. If possible, get references from owners of the full and
half littermates to your pup, and the littermates of your dog's sire &
dam. Ask those references if they've ever encountered cancer.
Cancer in some breeds (Goldens, Boxers) is genetic - its basically
the inheritance of a poor immune system. Check your dog's pedigree. Is
the same dog listed 3x or more in three generations? Are there more
than one dogs whose names are listed 2-3x in three generations? If so,
the pup is inbred or very closely linebred. Some lines do well with
inbreeding in moderation, others become a veritable genetic mess. I
think thats what you have on your hands, a genetic problem, pure and
simple.
I can guarantee you that if you switch your dog to cooked or
kibble, the symptoms will still persist. You cannot place a stopper on
a genetic timebomb ... you can take out the batteries, cut the wires -
but it will still eventually explode :(
My advice would be to get your dog to a good Vet and explain your
concerns. You may be able to catch something before it gets out of
control, and prolong the life of the dog significantly.
You asked for others opinions on this and I wil give you mine.
When my pups eat raw foods, their coats are thicker, richer. They do
not suffer from the foul body odor and stool smell as do kibble fed
litters. They do not have eye discharge. Their bone structure actually
improves if the bitch is fed raw while in whelp. When their puppy teeth
fall out, kibble fed pups will loose teeth that are a dingy white - raw
fed pups's teeth are so bright white I wonder if they could glow in the
dark. My raw fed pups do not catch corona, but my litters eating kibble
or cooked meats do. We had a bout of corona a while back, and like
clockwork, the kibble/cooked foods litter get a full blast of it if
they are too young to be vaccinated. My pups who are grown on raw do
not get Pano. They grow strong, healthy. They don't have breathing
problems, greasy or thin coats. Their ears are sparkling clean. While
my litters raised on good quality kibble, and ESPECIALLY those who ate
some canned foods have had snoring problems (which goes away when
kibble is taken out of the equation), oily coats, infected, smelly
ears, body odor until kibble is removed, dirty teeth at a young
agethinner coats, poorer bone structure ...... You just can't compare
the pups I have raised on kibble as opposed to raw.

Noelle

Messages in this topic (47)
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4a. Re: 2yr old dog new to raw, sick
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kay" <k12lytle@...> wrote:
>
> However, she's having bouts of vomiting. I don't remember
> how many
> weeks it's been since I switched her. Maybe 3.

> It isn't all the time. We've had 2 small
> spots that contained bone pieces that were the size of 1/2
> a cracker several weeks ago. Then today she's barfed
> everywhere, liquid & grass.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You began your dog on
chicken backs about 3 weeks ago. She threw up twice in the first
few days and had a bone fragment or two each time. The next 2 weeks
or so, no problem. Then today she threw up a few times with no bone
present, only liquid and grass. She had buffalo ribs last night
before she threw up.

If I have the picture correct, I don't see a big problem here. Just
a little tweaking. You are still early into raw feeding and may
have rushed things a little bit.

Here's what I would do if it were my dog. For the next week, feed
nothing but chicken backs, quarters, and turkey necks. More
quarters than anything. It seems she does well on chicken and
turkey. The next week after that feed the same thing except two
meals would be pork roasts (not ribs). If all is still ok, the next
week throw in a new protein source for a meal or two, mabye beef or
even buffalo or veal but feed real meaty pieces, not ribs. Also
don't feed a lot of meals with a new protein source to give the dog
time to adjust.

If all is still ok, I think you could pretty much feed what you
want. Be sure you are not feeding too large of meals for the next
couple of weeks. In general I think some more meaty meals would be
good.

Again, I don't see a real serious problem here. Just go more slowly
to give time to adjust.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Chickens and Ducks
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:21 pm ((PDT))

No, they don't equate the live chickens with the stuff you're feeding
them. I don't know why people think this. Most of the poultry and/or
livestock killing dogs I've known were kibble fed. I guess I should
admit that switching a stock killing kibble fed dog to raw won't make
the dog stop killing stock. That's one thing rawfeeding can't cure.
Denise

> If I start feeding my dogs raw will they bother my chickens and
ducks that they now get along fine with?
> Thank You
Francine

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:23 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cavkist" <cavkist@...> wrote:
>
> She told me that
> by feeding raw I'm giving my puppies too many calories from
protein
> and their front legs are starting to "bow out" because of the
> improper nutrition.

Can you see the legs "bowing out" or do you just take the judges
word that they are? Many people mistakenly think that too much
protein causes growth problems. If your judge knew about raw, she
could possibly "imagined" they were "bowed" thinking that too much
protein will cause it eventually. Laura is right, too much calcium
(bone) COULD cause this problem as well as too much nutrition.

If it was my dog and I could actually see bowed legs, I would feed
less bone AND less total food. I'm sure you know that puppies
should be on the thin side.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "djpohn" dpohn@aol.com djpohn
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cavkist" <cavkist@...> wrote:
>
> Hello group -
> I had my litter of Cavalier pups evaluated today by a well-known AKC
> judge who routinely evaluates litters for breeders. She told me that
> by feeding raw I'm giving my puppies too many calories from protein
> and their front legs are starting to "bow out" because of the
improper
> nutrition.

Caren,
If they pups legs are bowing this might be an indication of "rickets"
which is actually caused by a vitamin D deficiency not too much
protein. This could be a result of a deficiency that occurred during
the pregnancy or something lacking in the diet. I didn't see where you
posted what you are feeding them now and what you fed the female when
she was pregnant.

Hope everything is ok.

Diana

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7a. Re: raw beginner
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:33 pm ((PDT))

"lamar.vaughan" <jlamarvaughan@...> wrote:>
>
> Would it upset
> his system if I made a sudden change over or should he be slowly
> introduced to raw?
*****
Digestive upset can be greatly reduced by feeding an appropriate
amount of food, by sticking to one meat for a while, by limiting fat,
by feeding edible bones, by feeding more rather than fewer meals to
start with. Since these "arrangements" can be made prior to the Big
Day, there is no reason to prolong the insult of kibble.

I have transitioned dogs from kibble to raw and I have also dumped
the kibble and started a fully-raw diet with no transition at all.
The cold turkey method is no more likely to screw things up than the
transition method if you do it sensibly.

I recommend getting the pup off kibble without delay.

Also, does it matter if I serve raw room temperature
> or should it be served right out of the fridge?
*****
There's no dietary or digestive reason to feed straight from the
fridge. Some dogs prefer cold food, some people prefer to feed cold
food. I prefer to feed room temperature and my dogs have not shown
any preference one way or the other.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:43 pm ((PDT))

Michelle Grabert <chalienme@...> wrote:
>
> ok, so whatever fowl or critter you are feeing they get ALL, fur
and feathers?
*****
Theoretically. Some dogs dig right in, other prefer to take the hair
off, some won't go NEAR the thing til it's been processed. Once you
know how your dogs eat, you'll know how much processing you must do
to feed them these things.

Of my three adult retrievers, one eats rabbit and other small
critters without any intervention from me. Another eats rabbit after
it's been skinned. The third will have nothing to do with rabbit or
whole fish but he will enjoy a skin-on cow foot or a hairy sheep
leg. All three are willing to eat fully feathered chickens but
they're not thrilled by having to slow down to get rid of the
feathers.

Do they eat the fur and feathers>?
*****
Depends on the dog. It's surely possible.

And with fish....fed whole...all those needle sharp bones inside are
perfectly ok for pups/dogs to swallow and eat?
*****
Yes. When fed raw they are quite pliable. If fish bones don't make
it for you, feed boneless filets or bag fish entirely. It's not that
big a deal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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8b. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:59 pm ((PDT))

Would smelt be okay to feed puppies as young as 5 wks?
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. ADMIN/Re: Demodex
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:50 pm ((PDT))

As long as this thread remains on topic (that is to say: raw feeding)
it's appropriate to the Rawfeeding list. The moment it goes off into
other Demodex issues it will be OFF topic and will have to move
promptly to RawChat.

Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: puking pets
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Todd!
Don't forget the heads, we like to talk about eating heads,
too! ^_^

New-to-raw dogs often have bone bits in their poop and sometimes hork
up bone bits, too. This is often because their digestive systems
aren't up to speed enough to entirely digest bone. Being dogs, they
have NP horking it up. Thats a good thing. ; ) The other reason why
newbie dogs get BBV or 'fossil poop' is because newbie owners are
often enamored of their dog's need for and ability to crunch and
consume bone, hence, they feed them too much of it.
10% edible bone is an essential part of the diet, but a small part.

Personally, the only time I've seen my Bea hork up anything, its been
beef bone, which she gets very little of. When she eats beef, its
usually heart, or on-sale-OMG-its so-cheap-I-can't-pass-it-by ground
beef, or slabs of beef ribs that I toss out once she's done
'flossing', or something less frequent and more exotic like bison
tongue - a special treat.

I think your guys would do better with easily consumable/digestible
bone, much less or no, beef bone, plenty more meat with a little bone
meals, lots more meatymeat-no-bone meals.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> mostly I think it was bone bile vomit. my wife was home and tried to
describe it, she saved a bone about 1.5 inch to show me. I think she
threw up three times after some beef bones and pig necks. her poop
looks like a snakes poop, dry with a white bone finish. I am so happy
I have found people who enjoy talking about guts, puke and dog poop as
much as me:)
> Todd

Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. Re: Demodex
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi Christy,

I am not the one with the bulldog, but I do fostering and come
across more than my fair share of demodex. Yes, raw feeding will
make a huge difference with demodex. Here's the deal. All dogs have
demodex mites. They live in the hair follicles. The mites migrate
from the momma dog to the puppies and most of the time are not an
issue. BTW, people can have these mites. Anyway, the mites become a
problem when the dogs immune system is not good. The mites overgrow
and cause the problem. The vets normally treat the symptom, the
mites, instead of the illness, a bad immune system. Feeding raw and
not poisoning the dog helps to repair the immune system. You can put
a few drops of lavender essential oil in a carrier oil and apply it
to the itchy spot th relieve the itching. There are other things you
can do also, I'm sure others will give you recipes for anti-itch
stuff. I like the oil based ones because it seems like the oil based
stuff works better on demodex to sooth the skin. I'm sure homeopathy
will help. I haven't tried that because of the expense and because
rawfeeding, no vaccinations, no poison, no antibiotics and a little
lavender oil have done the trick. The last foster I had with demodex
had generalized demo and went from having no hair to hair all over
in about 6 weeks. I'm sure you will hear from other rescuers and
fosters especially. Hope this helps. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cr008k" <crakoczy@...> wrote:
Molly has a mild case of localized demodex and was put on some kind
of medicine from the vet that she gets orally by a syringe once a
day. My question, for the person who said they fed their bulldog
with demodex on raw and that the dog was looking great (or anyone
else who has experience with this) will the raw food really have an
affect on the demodex and if so, how long will it take to see an
improvement in her itching. She's been on the meds from the vet for
almost 3 weeks and she still has a red spot on one of her legs and
she is still itching :( We're planning on starting on chickens
(either whole or the chicken quarters) and then slowly introducing
other proteins and organs.
Thanks!
Christy

Messages in this topic (7)
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12a. Re: Getting the cat on board
Posted by: "Anita Wright" craftyhoosiermama@gmail.com anita42776
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:55 pm ((PDT))

------------------------------------Quote--------------------------------------------
Hi, Anita!
I have to get a clarification from you for my own peace of mind;
You are only feeding chicken BACKS now?
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

well chicken backs, breasts and eggs actually, but the eggs are in a
different container. Sorry that wasn't more clear, I have a 2 yr old who
loves climbing on me whenever I sit down to check emails;)
--
~Anita

Keep up with us at http://craftywrights.blogspot.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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13a. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:55 pm ((PDT))

Trina,
I feed on towels. Here is how I trained my dogs to stay on the towel.
I put the towel down, put the meat on the towel and let the dog start
to eat. If the dog tries to leave the towel with the meat, I take it
from him/her and put it back on the towel. After a while they get it.
How long varies from dog to dog. If this won't work for you, feed in
crates. When they are finished wipe the floor of the crate with a
50/50 solution of white vinegar and water. No mess, no odor, no
chemicals. BTW, vinegar is anti-bacterial also. Denise

I'm having the same problems but i never free fed the dogs i have now!
Unfortunately, they are dragging the chicken around & I have a 2 year
old son. I can't mop every single day my whole house...... I need to
be realistic here.
Trina

Messages in this topic (14)
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14. {Raw Feeding} Seizures
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:55 pm ((PDT))

Ok, I got some more information from my friend that has the female
sheltie that's having seizures. She will be 2 in Jan., she started
having seizures in April - started out that wouldn't have the seizures
about every month and they started increasing. Now she's having them
every 2 weeks. She's on 32.16 mg of Phenabarbertor (sp) - half that
amount 16 something which she gives her pup twice a day. She's
interested in RAW if she thinks that it would help her with the
seizures.

Any suggestions I could give her?

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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15a. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:56 pm ((PDT))

Me three. When I found out about raw prey model feeding it just made
good sense to me. Also, having lived in rural areas where my dogs ran
loose, I was used to them dragging stuff up that they found dead or
killed and eating it. I've seen dogs run crows and buzzards off of a
nice roadkill. Denise

> I'll have to stand next to Chris :-)

> On 9/26/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> I would just like to state for the record that I was not a wreck and
I thought the sound of crunching bones was utterly amazing.

Messages in this topic (22)
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16a. Re: raw meat only
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:57 pm ((PDT))

I disagree with your premise. I have seen dogs with chronic ear
infections on a BARF diet, that when switched to raw prey model,
disappeared.(The infection, not the dog) Dogs on meds for arthritis
that were able to cut back on amounts or eliminate all together when
switched. Now this might not be "scientific" in your eyes, but, it's
proof enough for me. Besides, if you go by scientific studies, then
you ought to know the ones done by the dog food companies say that you
should be feeding their food anyway. Denise

Its true that wolves do not go around eating veggies. From what I have
found there is no scientific proof whether it benefits the dog to have
them, at least that I have found. A dog will be fine without them but
its up in the air whether they may do better with them. Figuring that
one out would require 20 years of study most likely.
peter

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12085

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Chickens and Ducks
From: Francine-Texas
1b. Re: Chickens and Ducks
From: Andrea
1c. Re: Chickens and Ducks
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

2a. Re: When starting out...how much is too much?
From: Andrea
2b. Re: When starting out...how much is too much?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Is my dog starving?
From: k9dine

4a. Re: Nutrtion seminar in Lexington Ky
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Getting the cat on board
From: Giselle

6.1. Re: New to Raw
From: aliciamyan

7a. How do I start?
From: luvmy4shihtzus

8a. raw beginner
From: lamar.vaughan
8b. Re: raw beginner
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: Michelle Grabert

10a. Re: RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
From: Giselle
10b. Re: RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
From: eyed_blue
10c. Re: RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
From: girlndocs

11.1. Re: Venison
From: Tina Berry

12a. Re: Confused about beef bones
From: cleone4100

13a. Re: Demodex
From: cr008k

14.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Shannon Hully
14.2. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: vickies_28

15a. 2yr old dog new to raw, sick
From: Kay
15b. Re: 2yr old dog new to raw, sick
From: Laura Atkinson

16a. Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: cavkist
16b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Laura Atkinson

Messages
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1a. Chickens and Ducks
Posted by: "Francine-Texas" francie43@sbcglobal.net fcampinose
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

If I start feeding my dogs raw will they bother my chickens and ducks that
they now get along fine with?
Thank You

Francine
francie43@sbglobal.net

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Chickens and Ducks
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:18 pm ((PDT))

If they get along fine now they will get along fine when fed a species
appropriate diet.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Francine-Texas" <francie43@...>
wrote:
>
> If I start feeding my dogs raw will they bother my chickens and ducks
> that they now get along fine with?

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: Chickens and Ducks
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:18 pm ((PDT))

my dogs don't like doing the plucking of the birds at our house, they did find a dead pigeon out back and played with it like a stuffed toy, so I don't think they put the two together that it could have been food.
I do alot of rehabing here with birds and that was a concern of mine too. I don't feed my dogs birds with feathers though, so that may be the difference. If you do feed with the feathers on, that, would be a problem, I would think, then they would know, that is a bird, and I might like a snack:)
My dogs like to jump up for the birds coming down in to get seed, and I am constantly training for them not too, so it's a training thing in mho. Up to you.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: When starting out...how much is too much?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

I'd say start off between 1-1.5lbs a day. You'll know pretty quickly
if you are feeding too much and you can back off. I'm going off a
guestimate of around 65lbs ideal adult weight. Don't worry too much
about loose stools, they are the only way for you to know when you've
given too much too fast.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lester <iumadness64@...> wrote:
>
> I am ready to try the 'raw diet' for my 9mo golden retriever/yellow
lab. I got her approx a week ago from the shelter. I keep reading
that when you start the dog on the 'raw diet' that too little is better
than too much. This reduces the chances of loose stool. She is approx
45lbs. How much is too much to feed her?

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: When starting out...how much is too much?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:56 pm ((PDT))

Mark Lester <iumadness64@...> wrote:
I keep reading that when you start the dog on the 'raw diet' that
too little is better than too much. This reduces the chances of
loose stool. She is approx 45lbs. How much is too much to feed her?
*****
Okay, so there are some variables to consider. One, there's too much
food as in one simply gives the dog too much to eat. That issue can
be reduced by feeding at the low end of the recommended range. My
guess is a reasonable adult weight for this Lab/golden girl might be
55lb.

Using a 2%-3% range (a good enough place to start), you might feed
her as little as a generous pound or as much as a healthy pound and a
half. It is harder with rescue or shelter dogs since you don't know
the actuals, but the generals usually suffice. If she's a skinny,
leggy 45lb, she'll probably weigh more than 55lb. If she's compact
and her parts are in pretty good proportion, she will be probably
mature closer to 55lb.

So to avoid this version of "too much" feed the lesser percentages,
and adjust up as you see need.

Then there's the too much that relates to meal size. You might
decide on an appropriate amount to feed her but given her iffy
history, you may have to feed her three times a day instead of two,
or two instead of one in order to minimize digestive distress.

To avoid this version of "too much", start with smaller more frequent
meals and move to fewer meals when you see she's literally and
figuratively solid.

And then there's the "too much fat", which can be mitigated by
feeding lean for a while.

And of course there's the "too much new" which is pretty much the
same as "too much variety". The threat of that can be lessened by
choosing one protein source and sticking to it until she's good and
comfortable with it. And then moving gently to the next protein
source.

Keep in mind though that loose stools are not bad things. They can
be unfortunate and distressing to the human, but at their best they
merely represent what was fed. They give you an indication of what
you have to do next. If there is a total disconnect between what you
fed and the quality of stool, it's a clue that something else may be
going on besides too much food.

As you get to know your girl's stomach, you'll be able to anticipate
the various too muches.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Is my dog starving?
Posted by: "k9dine" k9dine@yahoo.com k9dine
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

What temperature is the food? Warmer food has a greater scent, so
maybe warming it up to at least room temperature before you give it to
her will help (for my cats I run warm tap water over the bag with their
goodies from the fridge - not that they need much encouragement). I've
also heard rubbing the sliced-into food with something good and smelly
can help. Maybe crush a few kibbles (if you still have some, that is)
or put some stinky canned food on it (or parmesan cheese, or egg if the
dog likes egg).

Good luck!

Amanda

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Nutrtion seminar in Lexington Ky
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT))

We discussed this earlier in the year when he was a guest on Oprah. He
*says* raw feeding is best but then goes on to say he cooks meat, rice,
potatoes, pasta, etc. In his book he recommends that a meal contain 1/4
meat, 1/2 grain and 1/4 veggies.

I really think you will get better information hanging around here! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Felicia Kost" <saphiradane@yahoo.com>

> Yes, that is a great idea. My computer skill are lacking to say the least.
The advice on this list is free so maybe I don't want to pay for his. It
sounded good though. So far he seems to promote raw feeding first. He seems
to reccommend small amounts of fresh vegtables though. I like his idea if
treating the whole animal nutrionally. Thanks Felicia

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Getting the cat on board
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Anita!
I have to get a clarification from you for my own peace of mind;
You are only feeding chicken BACKS now?
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
"I just keep a big container of chicken backs in the fridge. "
<snip>
Any other suggestions or ideas?
> TIA
> --
> ~Anita
>
> Keep up with us at http://craftywrights.blogspot.com/

Messages in this topic (8)
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6.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:18 pm ((PDT))

Thanks again for the replies.

I think we are on the same page about the beef. I just needed to make
sure it wasn't beef bones in general. The only bones we've given are
ones worth chewing on - which is the meaty kind. The large "clean"
bones aren't worth packing home for any reason. We too dispose of the
remaining bone - not safe for the dog or for bystanders when the
lawnmower hits them. As for making requests to the butcher, thanks for
the encouragment. I have a tendency to be too accomodating for my own
good. Sounds a bit strange, but I can't wait for the next batch of
steers to grow up. Maybe I'll head out with the hubby at feeding time
and throw them extra hay - jk! We usually butcher 2 to 4 steer at a
time and our customers almost never want the "extras", which means I'll
need another freezer! To think what we've been "wasting" all these
years while feeding our dogs the other stuff makes me sick.

Alicia

Messages in this topic (35)
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7a. How do I start?
Posted by: "luvmy4shihtzus" luvmy4shihtzus@yahoo.com luvmy4shihtzus
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:18 pm ((PDT))

I have VERY picky small dogs. How do I get started with raw feeding?
What do I feed them that will address all of their issues? Do I need a
meat grinder so they don't choke? Here are my kids:

12 year old female Shih Tzu with heart failure, cancer, bronchitis,
immune system weakening, extremely picky eater, bad teeth, and
underweight (cardiac cachexia, possibly)

12 year old female Shih Tzu (sister) with heart murmur, allergies, and
overweight

6 year old male Shih Tzu with sensitive stomach, severe fish allergy

5 year old male terrier rescue with skin allergies, aggressive with
other dogs when he's eating his food, food gulper/hoarder, skin
allergies, overweight

9 month old male Shih Tzu with skin allergies

4 month old male Shih Tzu, very little, adult teeth almost in but not
yet, has runny poop when I try to feed him anything other than kibble

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Kristi

Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. raw beginner
Posted by: "lamar.vaughan" jlamarvaughan@hotmail.com lamar.vaughan
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

I have a puppy that I am starting to change over to raw. Would it upset
his system if I made a sudden change over or should he be slowly
introduced to raw? Also, does it matter if I serve raw room temperature
or should it be served right out of the fridge?

J.L.

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: raw beginner
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

Toss the kibble stuff and just feed him <g>. I found that Robin tended to
hork fridge temp meats up and re-eat them again...sort of a pre-warming
cycle?...but she grew out of it.

On 9/27/07, lamar.vaughan <jlamarvaughan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have a puppy that I am starting to change over to raw. Would it upset
> his system if I made a sudden change over or should he be slowly
> introduced to raw? Also, does it matter if I serve raw room temperature
> or should it be served right out of the fridge?
>
> J.L.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

ok, so whatever fowl or critter you are feeing they get ALL, fur and feathers? Do they eat the fur and feathers>? And with fish....fed whole...all those needle sharp bones inside are perfectly ok for pups/dogs to swallow and eat? thanks. michelle

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: "rawnewfie" <rawnewfie@...> wrote:
>
>I know the Newf
> was fed a diet based on fish and some kind of grain meal on the
working boats of old.
*****
This does not necessarily make either fish or grain an appropriate
menu item. Newfs were bred from other dogs which were bred from
other other dogs which were bred from other dogs and when you take it
back not so far at all those dogs were bred from wolves and despite a
mere couple of centuries, Newfs are still wolves. The breed as a
whole has no unique dietary requirements. Some Newfs--just as
certain dogs of any breed--may have health issues that require
specific menu adjustments, but that's it. I assume your pup will be
well bred and healthy.

Your Newf has no nutritional need for grain and no physiologial means
of access to it. Do the kid a favor, skip the grains.

Fish can indeed be a useful and nutritious part of the diet
especially when you feed whole fish (as in intact, head to tail) but
I recommend you include other critters as well. The more red meat
you can get into your dogs the better, and you'll need to feed lovely
juicy meaty bones for the dental benefits and occasionally you'll
probably want to toss in some liver, although if you are feeding
whole fish (and you will be, no?) then you'll have most of if not all
of the liver needs covered.

Also I was thinking of trying some whole rabbits and
> game birds as I find them.
*****
The more the merrier. The wholer the better.

My sweet old retriever? I just don't see her grubbing a rabbit, She
> is more likely to mourn for it. Should I um, well... "open" it
first or something?
*****
You may have to anyway, it's hard to know beforehand how even our
youngsters will take to fur and hair. For your sweet old dog, I
recommend you feed whatever works, whenever it works, however you
need to offer it. Dear seniors deserve at least that. You might
consider keeping meals small and simple, and feed as many of them
through the day as she does best on.

> What about prey drive? My dogs have always lived amongst my garden
laying hens and
> tortoise?
*****
If they honored the hens and tortoise on kibble, they will when fed
raw. If your dogs were disrespectful hooligans on kibble, raw will
not fix the behavior. It's a training thing.
Chris O

---------------------------------
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
If I were you, and I *was* there at one point, I'd forget
trying to convert kibble measurements to raw measurements or vice
versa. It makes your head hurt, has no redeeming value, and, since all
your dogs are going to make the switch to raw and NEVER look back, its
ultimately an exercise in futility. ^_^

Your calculations will be easier and more helpful to you and your dogs
if you just decide on a starting amount for each dog, the lower amount
is almost always where you should start, and plan to ADJUST and TWEAK
for the rest of the dog's life! Feeding raw to your dogs is more an
act of love, and an art - not a scientific calculation or 'tab A fits
into slot B' sort of procedure.

Most experienced raw feeding peeps on this list, I dare say, don't
weigh their dogs, or the dog's food. You might start out that way, but
it quickly becomes apparent that its not necessary. Get used to really
looking at each dog's appearance, feel of his ribs and back bone and
hip bones, and feed a bit more if the dog is getting a little lean, a
bit less if the dog is getting too 'fluffy'. Its a dynamic, and
organic process. And fun, if you let it be.

A lot of peeps (US) make a plan to spend less than $1 per pound of
protein - they make that, and under, by taking advantage of all the
freebies they can source, and spending more $$ on protein variety or
parts or organs they have to buy.

Once you factor in future savings on vet care, you'll be good to go!
You may even find you need to reevaluate and reduce, or eliminate,
meds for some of the dogs. Raw feeding helps dog's bodies to repair
their immune systems and physical health. Its not a cure-all, but it
is remarkable. Its not just soft coats, bright eyes, sparkly teeth and
increased energy that you'll be seeing as positive changes in your
dogs happen, but a lot of intangible benefits, too.

Have you looked at The Lis List for creative ways to obtain cheap &/or
free protein variety?
You could print it out, highlight the most likely items to start with,
and use it to refer back to later, to explore other options and get
more sources pinned down. You can even use The Lis List to find free
or cheap freezers to keep all the meat you'll be finding!
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/140467
post # 140467

You can always keep a little cheap ground meat on hand to make
meatballs to feed supps in. Chicken or turkey hearts make a great
medicine time treat. Just slip the pill into the cavity and watch them
gobble them up!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
> My old Dal gets a powdered medicine... I wonder should I roll his
chicken in
> it like a coating? His other supplements we are still giving in a
ball of
> canned. These are necessary for his health as well as the others taking
> specific supplements & medications.
> I didn't do well in math so if I made a mistake, help me out!!
> I hope I am getting this right.
<snip>
we all get the hang of things. I
> don't plan to go back!
> Trina
> --
> Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
> Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
> Louie (hearing Great Dane)
> Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
> Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
> Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

Messages in this topic (5)
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10b. Re: RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:13 pm ((PDT))

My pup was in and out of the vets before 'going raw' and since the
very first meal of being raw fed has not had to see a vet once.
Prior to this I had spent about £150.00+ in just one month on
consultation fees, diahrea tab's, eye-drops, AB's, steroid,
antihistamines..... and the problems were still there, add to that
he could be fine on a food then if something gave him the runs, I
couldnt get him back on the food, thats half a bag of food wasted,
the cost of buying and trying other food only for the remainder to
be given or thrown away....

Almosty every symptom that he has ever had has almost dissapeared
since we started raw feeding and his very bad excess gas and colitis
hasn't returned once since raw feeding.

I now realise that what I have is a healthy dog whos body was
rejecting all the crap that they put into the so-called premium
pet 'food' that I was paying a fortune for.

Also I buy from what you would call a co-op type set-up so I only
spend what a 'good' k****e would cost, if not less. Even if I bought
from the butcher all the time it would only be the same cost as
ki**le/cans.

Add that to not having to smell stinking poo when i pick up after
him, as well as that there's less to pick up less often.

Have recently spoken to someone who's had to pay £500.00 for dental
treatment on their spaniel and is now spending money feeding two
denta-sticks a day to prevent another £500. bill in the future, I'm
confident it's not likley I will need to spend money on either
sticks or serious dental work (which also carries the worry of
anaesthetic)

Raw feeding also reduces the risk of thyroid trouble/cancer brought
on by BHA/BHT, which is used even in some very well known brands,
labelled as an ec additive or antioxidant.

I dont use supplements for a few reasons and so that cost does not
even exist. When it comes to medicines you will have to give these
anyway, regardless of what you are feeding (although I believe long
term you wont need as many if raw fed = less expense)

When you think of all this RAW FEEDING MORE THAN PAYS FOR ITSELF!!

Sorry if this was a bit long winded, I do try to limit my posts but
never seems to work!! lol

Natalie

Messages in this topic (5)
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10c. Re: RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi Trina,

If you feel you absolutely have to be able to compare kibble
unit-to-unit with raw (and it can definitely be helpful, for example
to do a reality check on how different the cost of raw may or may not
be) I find the easiest and most usable way to do that is to compare
them on a per-day basis, not per cup or per pound.

Divide the cost of a bag of kibble by how many days it lasts you and
you have the per-day cost to feed that kibble.

Calculate the pounds of meat per day you feed by the average price per
pound you pay (or expect to pay) and there's your cost per day to feed
raw.

Do NOT forget that there are benefits not included in this comparison,
for instance, the cost of dental work and cleanings is pretty much
completely eliminated with raw prey-model feeding, and that's nothing
to sneeze at. Similarly you want to consider that there may be fewer
vet bills for other issues, less work picking up poop, there will
surely be better overall health and quality of life for your dogs, you
may have better peace of mind about the safety of their food source,
and so on.

In my case when I did the numbers I found that feeding raw costs the
same as it would to feed the lowest price kibble I consider edible
(not ideal, but edible), which happens to be Canidae. I budget a
dollar a pound for Zoe's meat; I get quite a bit of that cheaper, so
I'm able to spend a bit over $1/lb for some items and it all comes out
in the wash.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (5)
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11.1. Re: Venison
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:13 pm ((PDT))

Ditto what Bill said; and mine have eaten venison not frozen yet, just
refrigerated for years and been fine.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (42)
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12a. Re: Confused about beef bones
Posted by: "cleone4100" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:13 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Misty Sargent <jrtlover27@...>
wrote:
>
> What part of the leg are you giving them?

I get a bag from the grocery store that contains knuckles (knees &
hocks?) and sawn portions of the leg bone. So if the knuckles are
okay, it is the leg bone now that has me concerned. These are cut
into slices about 1-3" thick, depending on the width of the bone,and
have little on them other than the marrow. My dogs enjoy them so
much, I was disappointed when I saw the concerns mentioned in the
emails. And it makes a big difference in their teeth.

So what do you think, leave the knuckles but lose the leg slices?

>
> Thanks, Carey, Biscuit & Gravy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
user panel and lay it on us.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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13a. Re: Demodex
Posted by: "cr008k" crakoczy@gmail.com cr008k
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:13 pm ((PDT))

Hello
I'm new- we have 2 beagles (Molly- 9 months; Bailey almost 4 months)
that we are going to be switching over to raw food very soon. Molly
has a mild case of localized demodex and was put on some kind of
medicine from the vet that she gets orally by a syringe once a day.
My question, for the person who said they fed their bulldog with
demodex on raw and that the dog was looking great (or anyone else who
has experience with this) will the raw food really have an affect on
the demodex and if so, how long will it take to see an improvement in
her itching. She's been on the meds from the vet for almost 3 weeks
and she still has a red spot on one of her legs and she is still
itching :(
We're planning on starting on chickens (either whole or the chicken
quarters) and then slowly introducing other proteins and organs.
Thanks!
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Why do you think your girl doesn't do well with whole foods? Feeding
> ground food really limits the variety you can find and it does
> nothing good for your dog's dental health. If your girl tries to
> swallow her food whole I think you should try giving her really big
> pieces. So big that she physically cannot swallow it without ripping
> and tearing into it. To start with I would say feed around 1.5lbs to
> each dog and reduce or increase the amount as necessary. There's no
> need to try and get it perfect at first because all dogs are
> different. If you feel your girl is too skinny, increase the amount
> of food. Easy peasy.
>
> Andrea
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sarajane" <leopardjunkie@>
> wrote:
>
> > We have an american bulldog that has been on raw due to demodex and
> > is looking so fantastic no chemicals. We feed ground as she does
> > not do well with whole or chunks.
> >
> > She weighs about 65 pounds and is skinnier than I would like she
> > could gain a few pounds
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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14.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...>
wrote:
>
Well, our experience was that our puppy had diarrhea, loss of
appetite, and vomiting. He'd always been prone to vomiting bile when
he figured it was feeding time and we didn't though (possibly a
warning sign). My poor boy lost so much weight he was pretty much
*literally* skin and bones before the vet found the right test to try
to pinpoint his problem. :-( He was a long-haired Shepherd so you
didn't notice it as easily looking, but if you ran your hands along
his sides they would bump in and out on each rib, then they cut right
to the spine at the end of the ribs, it was awful! We were going
crazy trying to find out what was wrong with him. He had been on
antibiotics for something to do with his stomach (sorry, it's been
almost 13 years!) right before this, may have been a warning sign,
may have been a trigger, I have no idea. :-(

I'd cut way back on the fat until he's feeling better (assuming
you're actually having any problems along these lines!) then slowly
bring it back.

Have you looked up pancreatitis on-line at all? I bet you could find
a plethora of good info out there that might help you to either know
what tests to ask your vet to do or what to look for yourself.

Good luck, knowledge is half the battle!

Shannon H.

> What are the symptoms of pancreatitis and how would I suspect my dog
> has it? Until we saw that crazy vet I didn't even think he had a
> digestive problem.,and don't think he does now.
> We saw the vet for the sneezing and fever and not feeling well. But
> after we got the antibiotics for upper respiratory infection the dog
> seems better.

Messages in this topic (46)
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14.2. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks, Shannon.
What if a dog doesn't have any of these symptoms? just the blood work?

Vickie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@>
> wrote:
> >
> Well, our experience was that our puppy had diarrhea, loss of
> appetite, and vomiting. He'd always been prone to vomiting bile
when
> he figured it was feeding time and we didn't though (possibly a
> warning sign). My poor boy lost so much weight he was pretty much
> *literally* skin and bones before the vet found the right test to
try
> to pinpoint his problem. :-( He was a long-haired Shepherd so you
> didn't notice it as easily looking, but if you ran your hands along
> his sides they would bump in and out on each rib, then they cut
right
> to the spine at the end of the ribs, it was awful! We were going
> crazy trying to find out what was wrong with him. He had been on
> antibiotics for something to do with his stomach (sorry, it's been
> almost 13 years!) right before this, may have been a warning sign,
> may have been a trigger, I have no idea. :-(
>
>

Messages in this topic (46)
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15a. 2yr old dog new to raw, sick
Posted by: "Kay" k12lytle@flash.net kay12327
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:39 pm ((PDT))

I recently converted a foster dog I have to the raw diet. Her teeth
had a good amount of plaque, coat not good, etc. Her teeth are
looking great - white for the first time!

However, she's having bouts of vomiting. I don't remember how many
weeks it's been since I switched her. Maybe 3. She had 1 day of
fasting, then the following day I started her on chicken backs. When
on processed food, she was a gulper.

I don't know if I started her too fast, or what. Could the raw diet
be causing the puking? It isn't all the time. We've had 2 small
spots that contained bone pieces that were the size of 1/2 a cracker
several weeks ago. Then today she's barfed everywhere, liquid &
grass.

If she eats her food too fast could it cause this? By this afternoon
she was ready to eat & had a tin of sardines & a big chunk of veal
w/bone. Yesterday she had buffalo ribs. Before that it was always
either chicken backs or turkey necks.

I was worried about a bone puncture in the gut, but now she's
running, jumping & climbing like usual. When I checked out her guts
this morning & pushed around (after the puking) she groaned, but
didn't cry. I didn't feel anything suspicious.

Any thoughts? I'd like to be able to rule out the raw diet.:)

Thanks,

Kay

Messages in this topic (2)
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15b. Re: 2yr old dog new to raw, sick
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:53 pm ((PDT))

Too much bone too soon would be my diagnosis. Start her on something with
some more meat on it. And if she's still giving you bile urps, give her a
small snack in between meels.

On 9/27/07, Kay <k12lytle@flash.net> wrote:
>
> I recently converted a foster dog I have to the raw diet. Her teeth
> had a good amount of plaque, coat not good, etc. Her teeth are
> looking great - white for the first time!
>
> However, she's having bouts of vomiting. I don't remember how many
> weeks it's been since I switched her. Maybe 3. She had 1 day of
> fasting, then the following day I started her on chicken backs. When
> on processed food, she was a gulper.
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
> Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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16a. Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "cavkist" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))

Hello group -
I had my litter of Cavalier pups evaluated today by a well-known AKC
judge who routinely evaluates litters for breeders. She told me that
by feeding raw I'm giving my puppies too many calories from protein
and their front legs are starting to "bow out" because of the improper
nutrition. She said a puppy in the wild would never be given the
quality and quantity of protein I'm feeding.
May I have some feedback from others who have had success in weaning
pups onto raw. I'm sold on raw just a little rattled by the comments.
Your thoughts and comments in this regard, please.
Thanks so much.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Messages in this topic (2)
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16b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:15 pm ((PDT))

Ok, here it goes.

You are not feeding a high protein diet. You are feeding a combination of
vitamins, minerals, WATER, protein, fat and even some limited carbs.
(there's a recent thread about feeding 100% protein, it's just not
happening)

If there's a nutritional aspect to the legs bowing, then let's evaluate WHAT
you're feeding them and fix that. My suspicion (as usual) is that you're
probably feeding too much calcium (aka bone) for the puppies. But let's
start with what they're eating and go from there.

On 9/27/07, cavkist <cavkist@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello group -
> I had my litter of Cavalier pups evaluated today by a well-known AKC
> judge who routinely evaluates litters for breeders. She told me that
> by feeding raw I'm giving my puppies too many calories from protein
> and their front legs are starting to "bow out" because of the improper
> nutrition. She said a puppy in the wild would never be given the
> quality and quantity of protein I'm feeding.
> May I have some feedback from others who have had success in weaning
> pups onto raw. I'm sold on raw just a little rattled by the comments.
> Your thoughts and comments in this regard, please.
> Thanks so much.
> Caren O'Connor
> Nansemond Cavaliers
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12084

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: Shannon Hully

2a. Re: Nutrtion seminar in Lexington Ky
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Nutrtion seminar in Lexington Ky
From: Felicia Kost

3a. Re: Serving Size
From: Yasuko herron
3b. Re: Serving Size
From: Andrea
3c. Re: Serving Size
From: girlndocs

4a. RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
From: T Smith
4b. Re: RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
From: Olga

5a. Raw with Puppy.
From: borderlicious
5b. Re: Raw with Puppy.
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Raw with Puppy.
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

6a. Re: puking pets
From: Olga

7a. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
From: Olga

8a. Re: New to the group/questions
From: Michael Moore
8b. Re: New to the group/questions
From: Pamela Picard

9a. bones in poo!
From: patti.h310
9b. Re: bones in poo!
From: Andrea

10.1. Venison
From: mariola9000
10.2. Re: Venison
From: carnesbill

11a. Re: Confused about beef bones
From: Misty Sargent

12a. Re: Is my dog starving?
From: eyed_blue

13a. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
From: heathermcpher822
13b. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
From: Laura Atkinson
13c. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
From: heathermcpher822

14. When starting out...how much is too much?
From: Mark Lester

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

Trina,

I don't have quite the same amount to clean up, having only a Greyhound
and two cats, but what we've done (well, what *I've* done, hehe) is
train my Grey to eat on a towel in the kitchen and my cats to eat on
their portion of the kitchen floor (I had to start them in the bathroom
because they used to play with their little furry bodies before eating
them. You wouldn't believe how high a cat can throw a mouse... LOL)

At any rate, I only have the kitchen floor in a few spots to clean up!
It only took my Grey two meals to get it, and I've only had him a week
and a half! (he's an off-the-track rescue). I don't know how big your
kitchen is ;-) but that would work for some. Some could eat in the
garage, and you could feed some at a time. My aunt used to have 13 dogs
at one point (she bred Shih-Tzu and had some Bouviers) and she fed
cooked homemade. She'd have some in one room, some in another, some in
the kitchen... Sorry I'm not more help with that.

Good luck! :-)
Shannon H.

>
> I'm having the same problems but i never free fed the dogs i have now!
> Unfortunately, they are dragging the chicken around & I have a 2 year
old
> son. I can't mop every single day my whole house...... I need to be
> realistic here.
> Trina

Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: Nutrtion seminar in Lexington Ky
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:10 am ((PDT))

Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
> Dr. Goldstein (from Newyork I belive) is doing a seminar on dog
nutrtion, raw feeding and vaccines.
*****
Perhaps you should Google him and see if what he says is what you want
to pay to hear.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Nutrtion seminar in Lexington Ky
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:47 pm ((PDT))

Yes, that is a great idea. My computer skill are lacking to say the least. The advice on this list is free so maybe I don't want to pay for his. It sounded good though. So far he seems to promote raw feeding first. He seems to reccommend small amounts of fresh vegtables though. I like his idea if treating the whole animal nutrionally. Thanks Felicia

*****
Perhaps you should Google him and see if what he says is what you want
to pay to hear.
Chris O

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Serving Size
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

>She weighs about 65 pounds and is skinnier than I would like she could
>gain a few pounds,

hi,here is amount to start (guideline),since you write you want ideal weight 68lb or so...

If 2% feed,68x16x0.02=21.76oz (1.36lb)
If 3% feed,68x16x0.03=32.64oz(2.04lb)

>We also just got a male that is 66 pounds and switching from yucky
>beneful to raw..Now he is short and stalky he could loose a few pounds
>but not much.

Now,he is.. since you like to loose couple of lb,so... say 63lb ideal weight.

If 2% feed,63x16x0.02=20.16oz(1.26lb)
If 3% feed,63x16x0.03=30.24oz(1.89lb)

>They are both 14 months old and get fed once a day with supplements.

You mean,Fish body oil??

> I do ground turkey, chicken and rarely pork with ground organ.

so,you get pre-made or you grind meat yourself?

If pre-made,I feel that you really have no control over bone amount,organ amount and I rather prefer feeding chunks.Your dog have teeth/jaw prob?If you grind meat yourself,you still have control over how much bone,how much organ to go into dog's but you arestealing fun to work on meat from dog,and no mental excersise is provided. why do you think your dog does not eat chunk of meat?

> I also supplement and feed mackeral and occasional pumpkin as well.

Why pumpkin?? I know home-cooking diet people give pumpkin forfiber and to firm up poo but in raw feeding,bone does the same thing;firming up the stool,anddog cannot digest veggie enough to utelize nutrient from it and why do you feed?

yassy

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Serving Size
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

Why do you think your girl doesn't do well with whole foods? Feeding
ground food really limits the variety you can find and it does
nothing good for your dog's dental health. If your girl tries to
swallow her food whole I think you should try giving her really big
pieces. So big that she physically cannot swallow it without ripping
and tearing into it. To start with I would say feed around 1.5lbs to
each dog and reduce or increase the amount as necessary. There's no
need to try and get it perfect at first because all dogs are
different. If you feel your girl is too skinny, increase the amount
of food. Easy peasy.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sarajane" <leopardjunkie@...>
wrote:

> We have an american bulldog that has been on raw due to demodex and
> is looking so fantastic no chemicals. We feed ground as she does
> not do well with whole or chunks.
>
> She weighs about 65 pounds and is skinnier than I would like she
> could gain a few pounds

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Serving Size
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sarajane,

It's not really very complicated, don't let the math part scare you off :)

You probably already know that you aim for 2-3% of ideal adult body
weight. The way I do it is I go like this:

ONE percent of 65 is .65

.65 multiplied by two is 1.3, which is between 1 and 1 1/2 lbs

.65 multiplied by three is 1.95, a bit over one and three-quarters

So, for a 65-lb dog, I would start out with something in the middle of
those weights -- probably 1 1/2 lbs/day -- and tweak it a little
higher or a little lower depending on whether I liked the shape my dog
was in after a few weeks or so.

Another way to do it would be to calculate 10% of ideal adult weight
(10% is always easy) and give slightly less than a third of the figure
you arrive at. Whichever.

Mind if I ask what kind of problems your American Bull has with whole
meaty chunks? The #1 thing I love about a prey-model diet is that it
provides such wonderful dental benefits, which you don't get with ground.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:42 am ((PDT))

Approximately 4.5 cups of k***le = 1 pound of RAW chicken.
Casper eats (he was dropping down), let's say, 10 cups a day to make is
easy... so we have 2.5 pounds of k***le per day.....
One chicken leg & thigh = 1 pound so if Casper eats one of these twice a
day, he is close to the amount of k***le he was eating, less 8 ounces!
His weight estimated would be about 200. Right now he is over 130 (7 month
old) so ideal weight would be 4 - 6 pounds RAW per day. I am going to go
more to the 4 lbs because he is neutered and MELLOW! So his metabolism
isn't fast.
K***le for him was special diet so it was about .90cents/lb. The others ate
a food that came out to about .50/lb.
I am trying to find a way to make RAW as cost effective as the k***le was
:-) because i am feeding 9 dogs. Mind you we add canned in & one of my old
dogs eats canned ONLY & RAW will certainly be much cheaper for her in the
long run so it should balance out?
My old Dal gets a powdered medicine... I wonder should I roll his chicken in
it like a coating? His other supplements we are still giving in a ball of
canned. These are necessary for his health as well as the others taking
specific supplements & medications.
I didn't do well in math so if I made a mistake, help me out!!
I hope I am getting this right. I just offered a friend our extra bag of
food for the cost we paid if she wanted it. I still have the 5 others on
k***le until I get the first 4 switched & we all get the hang of things. I
don't plan to go back!
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: RAW vs k***le, cost & supplements/medicines
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:56 am ((PDT))

Ok, I'm a math person, but this totally confused me. I think you're
making it more complicated than it needs to be.

To start, commercial foods usually have a guideline based on the dog's
weight - was he at the top or bottom of that range? That will tell
you if you should err on the low or high side of feeding him. To
figure out your feeding costs, weigh how much food you give him per
day (i.e. the kibble), then divide the bag amount by that. For
example, if the bag is 30 lbs and you feed him 2 lb of kibble per day,
at $30/bag, you're spending $2/day. Makes sense?

Then onto raw - I would start at 2% of his weight per day (divided
into as many meals as required). For example, a 100 lb dog would get
2 lbs per day at 2%. Keep in mind that toy breed dogs sometimes need
up to 4% and giant breed dogs sometimes need under 2%, just because
it's not a linear scale. So assuming 2% of his weight, you know how
many pounds he needs per day. Then multiply that by price per pound
to get your daily feeding costs. Hope I didn't confuse you too much
there!

The supplements and stuff you can mix with a little bit of ground
meat, or hide it in a chicken/turkey heart or something like that.
Usually you need no supplements (except for maybe fish oil) once you
switch to raw, except for stuff that you give for a medical reason.
Also, I found that feeding raw drastically reduced our vet costs,
which some people don't count because it's not a "fixed" expense. But
so far we have skipped 3 dentals, which would cost $300-400 each.

Olga

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Raw with Puppy.
Posted by: "borderlicious" borderlicious@yahoo.com borderlicious
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:44 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I'm new here, I'll be getting a puppy and need some help!

Your suppost to be 2-3% of there body weight, well how do you do that
with a growing puppy?

Do they need different things from adult dogs? Protien, carbs, ect?

Can they eat the same bones, ect with puppy teeth?

Also, those of you who who have had puppies and fed raw from the
beginning, could you tell me what all you fed and when(almost
something like a menu?)

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Raw with Puppy.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:35 pm ((PDT))

"borderlicious" <borderlicious@...> wrote:
> Your suppost to be 2-3% of there body weight, well how do you do that
> with a growing puppy?
*****
The recommendation is to feed 2-3% of the ideal adult weight.
Alternatively, until the dog is 16 weeks or so, you can also feed 10%
of the pup's current weight. When that exceeds the "2% of adult"
formula, you switch to the "2% of adult" formula. IMO, this is
unnecessarily complicated.

I suggest you feed 2-3% of ideal adult weight OR you don't use a scale
at all and simply feed amounts that keep the pupster looking and acting
happy and healthy. Whichever method you use though, plan on adjusting
as necessary forever.

> Do they need different things from adult dogs? Protien, carbs, ect?
*****
Not if you are feeding a menu reasonably based on what prey animals
deliver. You will probably have to feed smaller amounts in more meals;
you will probably have to make the body parts smaller and more
approachable. But overall, the fine tuning changes, not the
ingredients.

> Can they eat the same bones, ect with puppy teeth?
*****
Most people start with easy food like rib-in chicken breast or chicken
backs (maybe wings or even necks if the pup is quite small). I've had
great luck with dressed quail and cornish game hens. Given the
opportunity, most pups will step right up to the challenge. You just
have to play T-ball instead of major league baseball. Meat and organs
ought not present a problem unless they are overfew.

> > Also, those of you who who have had puppies and fed raw from the
> beginning, could you tell me what all you fed and when(almost
> something like a menu?)
*****
I started my BC (the most recent pup) on about a pound a day, divvied
into three meals. I fed whole quail (butterflied to make them more
complicated), game hen parts and chicken backs as meaty bones; and
lamb, venison, emu, beef, turkey, goat and pork meat (virtually
everything I had available) for meatymeat meals. Sometimes she got
meaty bones, sometimes she got meat. When I had them, I would give her
whole lamb shanks and trimmed out pork shoulder blade bones for the fun
and the workout. Wrestling with these meaty bones made teething a non-
issue. I also started adding bits of heart, liver, kidney, spleen and
green tripe after a week. With three squares a day, it's pretty easy
to rotate new food into the menu (three meals a day is 21 meals a
week!).

At four months I moved her to two meals; at 10 months I moved her to
one meal and reduced her intake to 3/4lb, more or less.

If you prefer to take it more slowly (as much for your sake as your
pup's) I suggest chicken with bone and chicken without bone til you get
settled. A very nice thing about switching pupsters to raw is their
lack of experience. Most of them are quite willing to sample variety.
Use this openness to introduce as many taste and texture sensations as
you can. Do not be afraid to offer oversized meaty bones. Let the kid
get whatever nutrition and joy it can from the event, then collect up
the remains.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Raw with Puppy.
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:50 pm ((PDT))

Dear Borderlicious,
Puppy, what kind.
I had danes, so they ate what I thought they should weigh, for #120, about. But they would get two to three meals a day, since they are giant breed dogs, and they stopped when they were full.
I fed chicken to start, the whole thing. In halfs. And they did fine. They got the organs from the chicken at the end of the week, so they had the meat, the bones, and the organs, all in one, and you do that for several weeks until you are good at it, and have done your research, and your reading, then you try adding in other meats/protiens. Here we do the prey model way, no need for other sources like carbs and such, they get what they need from the whole prey model, Like the whole chicken.
Feed when you want to on your schedule, so they are doing what you want, not what they want, you are in charge, not the dog.
Depending on the type or breed of dog, is how often and how much you would feed, so that we would need to know.
Puppy teeth do very well with bones, even better than adults, they are so sharp:) so no worries there.
Read the list notes, you were sent and recommended reading. It will help.
I recommend "work wonders" by Tom Lonsdale, it's fast and easy to read and to the point. You can get it online at www.rawmeatybones.com
and it's funny too.
Goodluck. And don't forget to sign your name next time.:)
Jeni

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6a. Re: puking pets
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

Sounds like what she ate was really heavy in bone. Hence the dry and
white poop, and vomiting of excess bone. I would suggest adding extra
meat to meals like this.

Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:08 pm ((PDT))

My mixed breed will also swallow, or try to swallow, boneless pieces
of meat. Usually she's fine with this, but if it's frozen it doesn't
seem to go down very easily, and she'll stumble around with her eyes
kinda bulging out trying to decide if she should bring it up, or keep
it down. I'm not sure if this is the behaviour you are describing as
"seizures"?

Basically what I do, is try to give her most of her food bone-in, and
when I'm giving boneless meat I cut it into pieces that she can
swallow. I don't give her frozen boneless meat anymore.

Olga

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:48 pm ((PDT))

>>Question: Can I please get some detailed information on how most of you wean your puppies and exactly how and with what food and when? What kind of feeding instructions do you give your puppy people? <<

Lorraine -- I started rawfeeding my Corgi puppies at around 4.5-5 wks., with bone-in chicken breasts, and cut "ribbons" into the chicken so they could grab on. They just licked at it for a few days, but within a week were cleaning the meat off the bones. Within another week, they were also eating the bones in their entirety. Within a couple of weeks, I had introduced boneless venison, pork, beef heart, fish, rabbit, and elk. They handled it all well.
I provide a great deal of information to my puppy buyers, and include 10 pages of info on rawfeeding, including how much, how often, benefits, etc., etc.

>>For those of you who have been feeding strictly prey raw feeding for many years now......... .....have you had any puppies/dogs that choked from the whole raw food or, surgery from bowel impacts, etc? <<

If six years qualifies as "many years," then I'm there. I have never had any dog (I have averaged feeding 7-10 dogs daily for those 6 yrs.) choke on whole raw food. I have had dogs "try" to eat pieces too large, vomit them back up and eat them more sensibly. My puppies have done this -- and continue to eat on this learning curve. Twice my GSD rescue did have severe constipation from pork necks and we administered enemas; this was *my* error -- way too much bone for her, and I finally learned on the second episode. She did not require surgery.

>>Did you have any problems with the pups growing confirmation wise (too fast, too slow, low pasterns, splayed feet) And finally what were your average results with OFA?<<

My first weaned-to-raw litter is just 5 mos. old, so this is not "complete" -- my puppies *were* smaller than typical Corgi pups at 9 wks., but as they have grown, they have caught up, size-wise. Interestingly enough, a puppy from the litter was switched to ki**le when he left here, and he is leggier, more "tubular" looking than the two littermates I kept. My two girls have wonderful proportions, more substance and more ligamentation and better muscling than their brother. Fascinating in my mind. (And FYI, because I'm a grammar person, it's conformation with an "o" -- spelled with an "i" it's a Catholic sacrament! Sorry -- can't resist, it's a bone of contention with me!)
Hope this is the kind of information you were interested in.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (21)
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8b. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:58 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie McGuirk <humming@...> wrote:
>
t 100% independently yet -- is
> a new and needy eater for me to think about.
>
> I say this in sympathy with the person who asked the question. Yes,
> I'm a wreck starting out. Embrace your wreckness, let it be.
>
> Stephanie of the Australian shepherd puppy
>
***

Mi too. It's just new. Once we've been doing it a while, it gets
easier. it helps too if your dog eats the same as your family. Like I
eat chicken, fish, turkey, beef and a little pork. So I buy more of
what he can eat when I shop for myself. Plus he gets rabbit, which I
have eaten in the past (but can't bring myself to eat now.) My partner
is vegan. Oh well. Nothing's perfect.

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Messages in this topic (21)
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9a. bones in poo!
Posted by: "patti.h310" patti.h310@yahoo.com patti.h310
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.***

I'm new to raw feeding and my 50lb. Beardie loves me for it. However,
he's very particular! Chicken wings and leg quarters are ok, but he
won't touch necks. Beef Ribs give him loose stooles. Won't touch
turkey necks or any kind of liver. Will not even consider lamb. He
loves pork neck bones but sometimes I find large, quarter sized pieces
of hard bone in his poo. (I poked it with a stick!) Should I stop
giving him the pork neck bones?

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9b. Re: bones in poo!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:12 pm ((PDT))

What you describe is mostly boney and not so much meaty. I suggest
adding more meat to the diet. I also suggest taking a stronger stance
with your boy when it comes to feeding time. If you let him decide
what he will and will not eat now you are setting yourself up for hard
times in the future. Variety is key in a raw diet and allowing your
dog to decide he only wants chicken wings and pork necks doesn't give
you variety. You put down dinner, dog eats it or does not. After 20
minutes or so, food goes back in the fridge for next mealtime. Process
is repeated as many times as necessary before dog realizes that he
doesn't get to dictate what he eats.

Do some dogs have least favorite meals? Absolutely. Geiger gives
me "the look" every time he gets duck for dinner. For some reason he
just isn't a big fan, but he eats it or he goes without. Now that I
know he really doesn't like duck, I don't give it to him often. But
the point is that he will eat it and anything else he is given. It's
hard to do tough love but it works out so much better for both of you
in the end, trust me.

The bone in your pup's poo isn't a terrible thing, but obviously not
what you always want to see. I think adding more meat to the meals
will help with the problem. You should shoot for mostly meat, some
bone and some organ. Try giving liver from different animals, freezing
it, or mixing it with egg/green tripe/ground meat.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "patti.h310" <patti.h310@...> wrote:

> I'm new to raw feeding and my 50lb. Beardie loves me for it. However,
> he's very particular! Chicken wings and leg quarters are ok, but he
> won't touch necks. Beef Ribs give him loose stooles. Won't touch
> turkey necks or any kind of liver. Will not even consider lamb. He
> loves pork neck bones but sometimes I find large, quarter sized pieces
> of hard bone in his poo. (I poked it with a stick!) Should I stop
> giving him the pork neck bones?
>

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10.1. Venison
Posted by: "mariola9000" mariola9000@yahoo.com mariola9000
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

I might be lucky to have finely found a source of venison for my dog.
At least it seems this way (I'm keeping my fingers crossed).
I talked to a hunter's wife and she promised me some of the meat when
her husband comes back from the hunting trip next week.

My questions:

1. Do I ask for scraps with lots of meat, big pieces or anything they
give me, organs, antlers (someone here once said they are a great
chewing object)?

2. Is there anything I should NOT be taking, considering a novice dog
(she never had venison and and so far had chicken, pork, beef, duck,
turkey and lamb)?

3.Is it wise to stock up on a new protein? How likely is it that my
dog will refuse venison?

4. How much should I expect to be paying for venison? I'm in Northern
California and the man hunts in Oregon.

5. How long do I have to freeze the venison meat for and at what
temperature?I hope an upright freezer is good enough for that purpose.

Mariola and Cookie

Messages in this topic (41)
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10.2. Re: Venison
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:58 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mariola9000" <mariola9000@...>
wrote:
>
> 1. Do I ask for scraps with lots of meat, big pieces or
> anything they
> give me, organs, antlers (someone here once said they are a great
> chewing object)?

Take anything that is offered and experiment with it. My dogs love
the leg bones for chew toys. I've never fed antler because I've
never had any.

> 2. Is there anything I should NOT be taking, considering a
> novice dog
> (she never had venison and and so far had chicken, pork,
> beef, duck,
> turkey and lamb)?

I wouldn't want intestines or bladder but I think those are disposed
of in the field. Anything else incuding head are great.

> 3.Is it wise to stock up on a new protein?

Usually its not wise. In the case of venison, do it.

> How likely is it that my dog will refuse venison?

Very close to zero. I'm sure once I make my next statement someone
will write in and tell me i'm wrong, but I have never known a dog
that didn't LOVE deer meat.

> 4. How much should I expect to be paying for venison? I'm
> in Northern California and the man hunts in Oregon.

I THINK its illegal to sell venison. It's ok to give it away. That
may differ in different states.

> 5. How long do I have to freeze the venison meat for and at what
> temperature?I hope an upright freezer is good enough for
> that purpose.

I wouldn't worry about feeding it immediately. Depending on how
much you get, most of it will be frozen a while anyway. I don't
think I would feed venison exclusively until it's gone. I usually
feed it a couple of times a week when I have it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (41)
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11a. Re: Confused about beef bones
Posted by: "Misty Sargent" jrtlover27@yahoo.com jrtlover27
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:50 pm ((PDT))

What part of the leg are you giving them? I give my dogs beef knuckly bones (the knee of the cow) just as chew treats and dispose of them once they get the meat off. I have never had a problem with them, and the dogs love it, not to mention they are great for cleaning their teeth, much more than smaller bones.

Misty

cleone4100 <cleone4100@aol.com> wrote:
Hi there,

Is it only the beef leg bones that are a problem? I just bought a big
rack of beef ribs. Those are okay right? My dogs have been getting cut-
up raw beef leg bones, strictly for entertainment, for the past 3
months. After they have chewed off all the meaty scrapes and
cartiledge, they lose interest in them and I throw the bones away.
Well, other than to parade around with it in front of each other to
torment each other! Is it okay to give them these leg bone pieces, or
can their teeth be damaged just by chewing to get the scraps off?

Thanks, Carey, Biscuit & Gravy

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

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12a. Re: Is my dog starving?
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:52 pm ((PDT))

Dont give in to her! I wouldnt wait that long 15 mins is fine, might
even do her good to start with a 'clear system' when she does eat the
raw food.

Natalie

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13a. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
Posted by: "heathermcpher822" heathermcpher822@yahoo.ca heathermcpher822
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Can anyone tell me then how that translates to actual food?
I am have trouble with the volume.
Right now he gets about 4 very meaty chicken backs, 1 smallish( about
fist size) pork neck or riblet some (1 cup /day veg- not more than
about 1/4 cup) that is blended with liver and /or kidney and/or
giblets and/or whole fish.
He was 8 weeks yesterday and weights about 23lbs.
Mum and Dad are smallish ( 150-165 lbs) but I think he might be headed
for much bigger things ......<grin>

Thanks for your help so far
Heather & family ( Guinness & Hamish included)

Messages in this topic (10)
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13b. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

Right off the bat, too much bone, not enough meat. Too much bone may
exacerabate the rapid growth issues that giant breed dogs (who are fed crap
in a bag) seem to be prone to. Challenge yourself to find him meat. Pork
and beef hearts are excellent places to start, as they're a nutrient dense
meat. Every meal, heck every day, does not need to include edible bone..if
it does, you're likely feeding too much bone.

In my world, there's no such thing as a "meaty chicken back." Even if
you're cutting up the chicken yourself, look at the amount of meat on the
back as opposed to a breast or even thigh.

Here's what Robin gets (in general) over the course of the week. She's 7
months now.

Breakfast: pork heart, beef heart, chicken quarter, leftovers from previous
night
Dinner: pork brisket, beef heart, chicken quarter, turkey neck, lamb flank,
fish, tripe, whatever + the organ d'jour (an unmeasured hunk of liver,
kidney or a glop of ground organ blend).

She probably gets edible bone 2-3x a week, not daily, nor have any of my
other puppies, the oldest of which is now <sob> going to be five in
November. He's not lacking in bone or size (see Ryder on my webpage).

I don't measure Robin's breakfast (look, Chris, no scale!) just hand her
whatever's in the "breakfast bag" in the fridge. Heck, I don't usually
measure her dinner either, because she's so active she'll never be fat...and
if she is, I'll just give her smaller meals. Everyone else, I seem to turn
into little balloons when I don't measure, especially the spayed/neutered
(and older) dogs who are less active. She probably gets, based on her pile
compared to some of the measured ones, between a pound and 1 1/2 lbs a day.
She'll probably finish up at about 38 lbs, so I'm feeding her WAY more than
2% of her anticipated adult weight...but whatever she's getting is the
amount that keeps her at a good weight now, while she's growing. Otherwise
I'd always be playing catch up when I wake up one day and realize she's a)
grown in her sleep and b) looking a little thin.

On 9/27/07, heathermcpher822 <heathermcpher822@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Can anyone tell me then how that translates to actual food?
> I am have trouble with the volume.
> Right now he gets about 4 very meaty chicken backs, 1 smallish( about
> fist size) pork neck or riblet some (1 cup /day veg- not more than
> about 1/4 cup) that is blended with liver and /or kidney and/or
> giblets and/or whole fish.
> He was 8 weeks yesterday and weights about 23lbs.
> Mum and Dad are smallish ( 150-165 lbs) but I think he might be headed
> for much bigger things ......<grin>
>
> Thanks for your help so far
> Heather & family ( Guinness & Hamish included)
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

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13c. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
Posted by: "heathermcpher822" heathermcpher822@yahoo.ca heathermcpher822
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Robin,
I appreciate the help.
So that's what we will move to more heart and meat.

-- Hamish (8 weeks) is like a little tazmainian devil when he eats.
Guinness 4yrs Lab 100lbs( but lean)
just finishes in 3 gulps and walks away.
Regards,
Heather

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14. When starting out...how much is too much?
Posted by: "Mark Lester" iumadness64@yahoo.com iumadness64
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:03 pm ((PDT))

I am ready to try the 'raw diet' for my 9mo golden retriever/yellow lab. I got her approx a week ago from the shelter. I keep reading that when you start the dog on the 'raw diet' that too little is better than too much. This reduces the chances of loose stool. She is approx 45lbs. How much is too much to feed her? Thanks for any assistance.

Mark Lester

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