[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12460

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
1b. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
1c. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Yasuko herron
1e. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Tina Berry
1f. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1g. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1h. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: aliciamyan

2a. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: SoldierGrrrl

3a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
From: riceaide

4. Re: fish oil, etc.
From: Darjeelingirl

5a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: mozookpr
5b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: katkellm

6.1. Re: worried
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6.2. Re: worried
From: lauriewolfert
6.3. Re: worried
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
From: T Smith

8a. Re: bones included?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

9a. Re: Leaving RMB's out overnight - indoors?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

10a. Re: Pork ear
From: Morledzep@aol.com

11a. Hello of Denmark
From: Tonny Surrow-Hansen
11b. Re: Hello of Denmark
From: Casey Post

12a. Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: tammyco5@aol.com
12b. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: Amy Tracy
12c. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: Jamie Dolan

Messages
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1a. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:38 pm ((PST))

> My order of meats that IMO are the best is red meat, wild if you can
get it,
> which is why I feed 100% venison. If you can't get red meat, then
turkey,
> pork, chicken are next.
>

Thanks Tina,
Where are you able to get so much venison? Sounds like you've
got lots of dogs, so that's a lot of venison! I'd love to get my
hands on some, but I just haven't been able to locate a reasonable
source.
Erica

Messages in this topic (18)
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1b. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:39 pm ((PST))

Thanks Chris,
I appreciate your input. We just had full blood work done,
actually, with ideal results. He had to go under to have a hernia
corrected ... now that I think about it, this all started within a few
weeks of that surgery. Hmmm. We'll be going in for another follow
up, ASAP.
Anyway, I feel a little more comfortable about the diet. I have
to admit that I have been keeping the fat low, which I am beginning to
see is a mistake. A very close family friend lost their dog (who may
as well have been my dog too) about a year ago from pancreatits
brought on by gorging on cooking fat stolen from the garbage can. I'm
quitting the Dream Coat immediately. Next week my coop is purchasing
salmon oil, so I'll be getting in on that, I think. How much fat
should I be feeding him? What cuts do you suggest? (By the way, I've
always heard to stay away from pork belly because it is so fatty).
Chris, you also suggested feeding more frequently. How often
were you thinking? It seems everyone has a different opinion on
frequency. I've had people tell me to feed once, twice, and three
times daily. What is your opinion?
Thank you!!

Messages in this topic (18)
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1c. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 2:16 pm ((PST))

"millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
> We just had full blood work done,
> actually, with ideal results. He had to go under to have a hernia
> corrected ... now that I think about it, this all started within a
few
> weeks of that surgery. Hmmm. We'll be going in for another follow
> up, ASAP.
*****
I also would inquire into any relationship between surgery his
diminished state. Was he on antibiotics? Also did the initial
bloodwork include a FULL thyroid panel? As in, one that was sent to
a lab, as in not done in-house?

I have
> to admit that I have been keeping the fat low, which I am beginning
to
> see is a mistake. A very close family friend lost their dog (who
may
> as well have been my dog too) about a year ago from pancreatits
> brought on by gorging on cooking fat stolen from the garbage can.
*****
Yeah, well, stop worrying inappropriately. Cooked fat in huge
amounts is not the same as dietary fat attached to body parts you're
feeding regularly but moderately. I understand your concern, but you
gotta understand that protein and fat are the two and only two blocks
in a dog's nutritional pyramid. You can't not feed fat.

I'm
> quitting the Dream Coat immediately.
*****
Oh this stuff is a dog's nightmare, honestly. Whoever wrote that
using it is like feeding grains was totally on target! Stick to
animal-based nutrition, fed properly.

How much fat
> should I be feeding him? What cuts do you suggest? (By the way,
I've
> always heard to stay away from pork belly because it is so fatty)
*****
The easy to way feed fat is to simply not trim the meats you feed.
When you feed chicken, don't trim the skin or the fat. When you feed
pork (and yes, you should include pork), don't trim--OR--trim
moderately as you continue to introduce more fat into his menu. It's
not so much dumping a sudden amount of fat into his life; it's more
that you just feed additional food, some of which will be fatter than
other food.

I would not run out and buy a bunch of pork belly futures, but
certainly feeding it conservatively as you gently and gradually put
weight on the kid will be fine.

Chris, you also suggested feeding more frequently. How often
> were you thinking? It seems everyone has a different opinion on
> frequency.
*****
Well, here's the deal. Feeding Big Food Less Often addresses one
issue, feeding Small Amounts More Frequently addresses another
issue. You have two food issues going on simultaneously, which can
be a poser for sure.

For healthy weight gain, more food and more fat are generally the
program. But if you start feeding lots more food, lots more fat,
and/or lots more new food right out of the blocks, what you're likely
to produce is digestive upset; a sudden, abrupt influx of fat may
cause pancreatitis in a dog unaccustomed to eating fat. So what you
do is, yes, increase the amount of food and the amount of fat, but
no, you don't feed it all at once.

I myself would not hesitate to feed two meals instead of one, three
meals instead of two, and even four meals instead of three it that's
what it takes to put weight on a dog. Usually circumstances are not
so dire as to require four squares a day...but the tool is there to
use if it's needed.

You also have the Picky Eater problem. Get rid of the kibble, I mean
get it outta the house. Stop snacks, or make the snacks part of his
meal plan. Usually letting a dog hungry himself into eating is a
safe way to feed, in which case feeding one big meal a day is fine.
But if you're trying to feed more, you can hardly skip meals.
Feeding smaller meals may be useful here as well, since picking at a
meal that's one-third "normal" size may result in a cleaned plate.

I am a big supporter of Big Food Fed Less Often but I'm also a big
fan of "Doing What It Takes". That's my opinion and I'm sticking to
it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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1d. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:25 pm ((PST))

>How much fat should I be feeding him?

Hi.I am not Chris,but I can post. If your dog has no upset tummy problems or poo problems,you can feed fat as is. No skin off from poultry unless your dog had diarrhea.

Dog needs fat and protin for energy so,low fat is not good. My dog is trying to loose weight and I feed less fat% than before but not low fat,rather moderate fat;40% with less cal with more excersize.

I still do feed fattier meat like tongue /ribs but when I do,I just give with less fattier meat like lamb tongue with boneless lamb.Lamb is fattier meat but tongue is really fatty;70% fat in it but by combining this way,thefat% goes down a little.

My dog once had diarrhea episode on Duck with all skin in meal so, I did combo meal with chicken and now she can have Duck with skin but skin has to be about 2 of 25cents coin size.More than that of skin left on meat,she either get runny poo or diarrhea. Except this Duck,I feed all poultry with skin on.

I think that if you want to put on weight on dog, you can feed more red meat,fattier kinds of protins like lamb,mutton may be good.I am thinking you like to do oposit to what I do so,why not feed fattier meat and give more ? If dog had no problem in health,then,that would help.Ribs are 60% fat in general so,that is fattier category and tongues are fattier too.

And, if you stop dream coat thing,I think situation can improve due all plant base oil is cut out from menu.

yassy

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

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Messages in this topic (18)
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1e. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:26 pm ((PST))

"Where are you able to get so much venison? Sounds like you've got lots of
dogs, so that's a lot of venison! I'd love to get my hands on some, but I
just haven't been able to locate a reasonable source. "

Yep - gotta love Montana and all the deer hunters. There are lots of
butchers around, but only ONE would give me free scraps by the large garbage
can full. So we fill up 3 freezers (one huge chest and 2 uprights) with
venison every fall. Last year we ran out around May but not all 3 freezers
were full. And I posted a sign at my work for carcasses, scraps from
co-workers and had few take me up on it. What's nice about non-professional
butchers is they leave half the meat on the carcass ;-) The butchers do a
good job of leaving just bone but I get lots of scraps.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (18)
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1f. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:37 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/4/2008 11:23:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
millser25@yahoo.com writes:

I really need to help him put on at least 5 pounds but preferably 7-10
pounds. I can see that he's not healthy right now, but I just don't
know how to help him.

Erica,

it sounds to me like you need to take a trip to the vet..

but as far as his diet goes sounds like you're feeding a LOT of bone and not
a lot of meat and fat which should be the bulk of the diet.

you want MEAT to be the main thing, and FAT. Fat is what dogs convert into
energy, like we do with carbs. i can't even think of why you would purposely
stay away from pork belly fat unless it's already smoked or cured into bacon.

i think you'll find if you increase the amount of meat and fat and decrease
the amount of bone, but still feed the same amount of food your dog will gain
some weight or at least stop losing.

I have an old golden dude that will quit eating if i feed him too much bone.
i can give him bone once a week, if he gets a meal with bone 2 days in a row
he'll take his food outside and hide it so the young female wolfdog will get
it. you might find that if you feed more meat that you'll also be able to feed
larger meals because your dog will be more interested in eating.

As far as getting organs in i never worry about it much. i hand organ meats
to the dogs and if they don't eat it that's the end of their meal. there
won't be any food offered again until the following day.. if a meal is even served
the following day. They get the idea pretty quickly that they had better eat
while the eating is good.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

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Messages in this topic (18)
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1g. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:12 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/4/2008 12:27:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
millser25@yahoo.com writes:

The oil supplement I've been giving his is "Dream Coat". The
ingredients are: Soybean Oil, Wheatgerm Oil, Safflower Oil, Sunflower
Oil, Garlic Oil, Cod Liver Oil, Anise.

Erica,

get away from the plant based oils and get some salmon oil or fish body oil
that has no soy in it..

along with more meat and fat and less bone like i said before.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

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Messages in this topic (18)
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1h. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:00 pm ((PST))

> I really need to help him put on at least 5 pounds but preferably 7-
10
> pounds. I can see that he's not healthy right now, but I just don't
> know how to help him. I'm desperate for advice.
> Thank you!
> Erica

Erica,

I would surely follow the advice of the other more experienced raw
feeders first, but I thought I'd share the menu that seems to be
helping my boy. My GSD looked terrible before we switched to raw
over 3 months ago - the sad joke with my family was he looked like a
prehistoric creature. His skin/coat condition improved the first
month feeding primarily chicken and elk. But he didn't start putting
on weight until this last month and a half when I found a source for
beef hearts and tongues - both have a good amount of fat. I think he
should be about 100lbs and feed between 3-4% (3-4lbs in a single
feeding). I hope once I get his weight where it should be, I can cut
back to a maintenace of 2% or so. I alternate between whole fryer
chickens and the hearts/tongues. He looks 100% better and is gaining
steadily, but still has a few too many ribs showing and needs a bit
more on his hip bones before I try cutting back. He prefers the beef
days - he gets pretty excited when he catches a whiff of what's
coming his way. I feed liver on Mondays, but I can't offer any help
there - both my dogs eat it willingly. Hope this helps.

Alicia
Moose 3yo GSD, Flicka 12yo Lab

Messages in this topic (18)
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2a. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "SoldierGrrrl" soldier.grrrl@gmail.com looking4godgirl
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:25 pm ((PST))

On Jan 4, 2008 3:21 PM, ekendahl <robert@ekendahl.org> wrote:
> > From: "SoldierGrrrl" <soldier.grrrl@...>
> >
> > Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
> > 2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a
> > day. I'd probably round up to eight ounces
>
> Not sure how you did you math. If I put "15 lbs * 3% to oz" into
> google (yes, they have a smart calculator as well) I get 7.2 oz and
> "15 lbs * 2% to oz" I get 4.8 oz.
>
> So to me, 8 oz seems like a lot for her. Unless she's very active my
> guess would be that 5 oz/day is more appropriate.

She's a terrier. To say that she's hyper would be an understatement.
:-) Also, we do try and walk/jog/stagger 2-4 miles a day. We're
working up to a 5k.

Sorry if my math's off. I guess it's also that I can't imagine giving
the muttlet a half-cup (or just a shade over) of food every day. I
realize she's not a human, but that's not much food to look at.

Jen
--
Blonde. It's not just a hair color; it's a way of life.

http://soldiergrrrl.livejournal.com/

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
Posted by: "riceaide" riceaide@yahoo.com riceaide
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:26 pm ((PST))

Thank you for the response. Yes, she does have IBD or IBS. I can't
remember which one, though I've looked them up after the diagnosis,
and figured it was the one that happens in the lower intestine. (mouc
more prone to diarrhea than vomiting).I am not very keen on the idea
of slippery elm, as another raw feeder with a dog who had similar
problems had negative results with the slippery elm. My dog (Hera)
gets sick from many, many things. She does not tolerate dog canine
NSAIDs, brown rice, wheat, Glucosamine/Choindroitin, etc. She has been
unable to eat chicken skin without getting diarrhea and lots of mucus.
Cooked or raw. Turkey has also given her diarrhea. Even in relatively
small amounts. The salmon oil, which I introduced sorta gradually, has
actually been fine. (Thankfully, as it adds some fat to her diet).
While it may be true that cooked chicken and potatoes are not a real
fix, she does appear to feel much better after eating them following a
bout of gastritis. There's a noticeable difference in her
demeanor/activity level. The enzymes have seemed to help, as well.
The bone-in chicken qtrs. were causing her serious discomfort and
blood before I added the enzymes. Within days of the addition, the
blood stopped and her discomfort seemed to abate as well. The enzymes
are ONLY given with meals. They are supposed to be sprinkled on the
food itself, which I do. Hey, if it's working, I'm for it.
I am going to continue with the potatoes for a few days, along with
her chicken, until she seems fully recovered. RIght now she'd okay
with raw chicken, but no bones. The problem is removing bones from raw
chicken (difficult). I'm not in the financial position to afford
boneless chicken in the amount she needs to eat, so it's cooked for
the moment.
>
> > Hi,
> > She no longer gets the vitamins or carrots. When I am cooking the
> > chicken (such as now, when she's had several bad days in a row), I
> > give potatoes and bone meal powder, too. Both seem to help firm her
> > stools, and calm the gastric upset.
> > **** Yes, potatoes, bone meal, even cooked meats can seem to solve the
> > problem - but they work by eliminating fat and skin from the
equation and
> > will add bulk to artificially firm the stool - a fix, but
ultimately not a
> > really helpful one. Giselle ****
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4. Re: fish oil, etc.
Posted by: "Darjeelingirl" darjeelingirl@comcast.net zoookeeeper
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:28 pm ((PST))

ok, this is what I want to know cause I keep reading about people adding
fish oil:

>>>You can give fish
>>>oil of you don't feed fish but nothing else is necessary and I'm not
>>>sure the fish oil is necessary.

>>>Bill Carnes

Is fish oil necessary or not? Why? Can you show me sources?

thanks!

Patsy and the Rawbies

Sherlock Bones August 2007 beagle

Cuthbert June 1998 yellow tabby

Snickers August 2003 tortoiseshell long hair

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5a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:29 pm ((PST))

> I'm sorry but I would have to disagree.
> If I were to eat say a whole chicken for dinner every night for a
> year and then one night decide I'm just going to have a chicken leg
> instead. I can bet that I am going to be looking for more food
> because I won't feel satisfied or as full as I usually do....
>....That's like saying an overweight person can go from what they
> normally eat to a salad a day and not feel hungry.

But you haven't cut back to a chicken leg from a whole chicken,
right? You have cut back from cups of junk food to a smaller but
healthier meal. Would you feel bad about cutting off an obese
child's access to unlimited ice cream, potato chips, and candy, and
offering appropriate amounts of nutritious food instead? Would you
give in if the child complained? (Given the epidemic of overweight
children in this country, perhaps that is a question best unasked...)

I suspect that animals overeat for the same reasons people do:
boredom, bad habits, or simply because FOOD TASTES GOOD!

If you are feeding healthy, appropriate food (please enjoy your salad
bar with other omnivores) and your dog is maintaining the correct
weight, let your mind be at ease. He might want more, but left to
his own devices, he might also want to run out and play in the
street, drink antifreeze, wolf down your leftover Valentine's
chocolate, or do any number of other dangerous things.

As far as the consumption of socks and other non-food items, consider
that behavior motivation to put such items out of reach. The
presence of animals in my home is a terrific incentive to put
possessions I would like unmolested away. (Heaven knows, I needed
SOMETHING to get me organized...<g>).

Good luck with your pup, and congratulations on choosing raw. It's
not always easy (I have one picky dog, to balance your little
piglet), but from what I have seen, it IS worth it.

Cheers,

Wendy, mom to Foxy, Sophie, and a pack of transitioning cats

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5b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:18 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:

> I suspect that animals overeat for the same reasons people do:
> boredom, bad habits, or simply because FOOD TASTES GOOD!

I think that defining overeating is probably where the problem starts.
You use the 2-3% of the dog's ideal body weight and feed accordingly.
If you are feeding twice a day, i understand that according to the
numbers you are feeding the right amount of food. The problem is that
dog full and people full are not the same thing. Dogs don't get full
by numbers. A dog that eats 3lbs at one meal when he is allotted a
pound a day may be overeating his daily allotment of food in terms of
the numbers, but he is not overeating in terms of how a dog was meant
to eat by nature of the design of their stomachs. A wolf will eat to
satiety. They have to because food might not be there tomorrow. That
is how they were meant to eat. Big meals till their stomach distends.
That is dog full. Its not what we have been taught to do, but we
have been taught its bad to feed this way by the same people that
profess kibble is good. Feeding small meals results in a dog that is
always hungry because he has not filled his stomach. The same dog
that eats a pound day and is always hungry can eat 2-3lbs every other
or every third day giving you a dog that isn't hungry because
he actually is full on meal day. A dog's system seems to regulate
itself better on big meals feed less often, or gorge and rest, or
whatever. My lab who was food obsessed and overweight and ate dog
poop and couldn't eat a pound of food a day without plumping, can, on
big meals, eat 7lbs a week, fed a couple of times a week and not be
fat. My jindo dog who was skin and bones and hated food and would eat
only enough to survive before raw won't eat 2lbs a day, but he will
eat 16lbs in a week if fed big meals a couple of days a week. Big
meals are definitely not a requirement of raw feeding, but it is
one variation that has really benefited my dogs. I really believe that
it would help any dog, but it is especially beneficial for a dog who
seems to be food obsessed and needs to be given chew things or offered
veggies to try and do what a big meal will do naturally, feed to
satiety. JMO, KathyM

Messages in this topic (21)
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6.1. Re: worried
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:29 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/3/2008 8:44:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
scarebetty@yahoo.com writes:

I know that anything can happen, but I was just
wondering if anyone that has been feeding raw for a long time has ever
had any of their dogs just die from the scary things that we are all
told about from naysayers, such as a perforated stomach, etc?

Betty,

i once had a 15 year old collie/shepherd mutt die from a broken neck because
she slipped and fell while she was chasing the younger girls in the yard about
1 year after we started raw feeding.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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6.2. Re: worried
Posted by: "lauriewolfert" lauriewolfert@yahoo.com lauriewolfert
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:15 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Betty,
I understand your concern and have the same question, as my husband
and I are only about a week and a half into raw feeding. We have two
small dogs (15lbs) and gave them large chicken legs tonight for the
first time and they left behind several 1/2 - 1 inch shards of bone
that they didn't eat. My husband ready to give it all up because he
is concerned that the bones they DID eat will harm them. Can someone
else give us some peace of mind? The dog falling and dying doesn't
really address our question>
>
> In a message dated 1/3/2008 8:44:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> scarebetty@... writes:
>
> I know that anything can happen, but I was just
> wondering if anyone that has been feeding raw for a long time has
ever
> had any of their dogs just die from the scary things that we are all
> told about from naysayers, such as a perforated stomach, etc?

Messages in this topic (33)
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6.3. Re: worried
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:46 pm ((PST))

Wolves/dogs have been eating raw bones since time began! If there was a
problem, they would be extinct by now. :)

Seriously, there are well over 10,000 members just on this one list, feeding
countless numbers of dogs raw and not one report of dogs dying from
perforated intestines, etc.

Read through rawfed.com and the myth section. A carnivore's digestive
juices are very capable of not only killing harmful bacteria, but also
dissolving bones with no problem at all.

http://rawfed.com/
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "lauriewolfert" <lauriewolfert@yahoo.com>
I understand your concern and have the same question, as my husband
and I are only about a week and a half into raw feeding. We have two
small dogs (15lbs) and gave them large chicken legs tonight for the
first time and they left behind several 1/2 - 1 inch shards of bone
that they didn't eat. My husband ready to give it all up because he
is concerned that the bones they DID eat will harm them. Can someone
else give us some peace of mind?

Messages in this topic (33)
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7a. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:30 pm ((PST))

Actually, the page was sent to me because I was being told I was not feeding
my dogs appropriately by not supplementing them. I defended myself but
that's why I asked, I "thought" I had it right.
When I send people to this list to get the correct info & ask questions, I
wonder why they never do it??

How many times a week for fish oil capsules?
Thanks Again!
Trina

On Jan 4, 2008 1:18 PM, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Trina! Stop that! You go out and read websites and have a tendency
> to believe anything you read. Just stop reading sites that you
> don't see recommended here. Vitamin E is totally unnecessary. All
> the dog needs is in the raw meat, bones, and organs he eats. You
> were right originally. No supplements needed. You can give fish
> oil of you don't feed fish but nothing else is necessary and I'm not
> sure the fish oil is necessary.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: bones included?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:30 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/3/2008 10:29:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
zooper1@juno.com writes:

My question is this - when weighing the amount of food they get for a
meal, is the bone weight included or is that just the meat? I have just
started feeding raw with bone so I don't want to starve my dogs! I am
weighing it now until I get better at gauging how much each of them
eats per meal.

Teri,

Edible bone is a very small part of the overall diet. so, yes, the bone is
part of the meal and should be weighed as such.

BUT, it seriously sounds like you're feeding too much bone and cutting up
hunks o prey that don't need to be cut up.

remember, that part of the benefits of this diet is the teeth cleaning and
work out the dogs get from having to rip and tear and work at eating. Feed BIG
food.. even to little dogs.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Leaving RMB's out overnight - indoors?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:30 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/2/2008 10:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
suzmacleod@rogers.com writes:

So I was wondering to those long term raw feeders, do you leave a rmb out
overnight on their feeding blankie, or do you guys pick it up and put it in
the fridge, when it
comes time to go to beddies?

Suz,

the big stuff that doesn't get finished gets picked up and put on the tray on
top of my chest freezers in the garage. Even here in California it's cold
enough to not worry about meal getting too stinky in the garage.

But then again, having BIG dogs, i rarely have anything that needs to be
picked up.. lol.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: Pork ear
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:13 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/3/2008 8:44:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

Hi,since my dog haslimping history,I try to give some cartilidge item here
and there but pork ear is good for joint as well if it is made with cartilidge?

Yassy,

there is a little cartilage in pigs ears.. but certainly not enough to make a
difference. and the last thing you want is smoked or dried pigs ears that
they sell at pet supply stores.

i thought, once upon a time, that since the dried pigs ears were bad that i
would buy raw pigs ears from the grocery store. i bought 8 packs of them (4
ears in each) and handed them out to the dogs and then spent the next hour or so
retrieving them all to throw away, the dogs just weren't interested.

i still see the raw ears in the stores, but i quit wasting my time, no one
wants them and they have very little nutritional value. When i have puppies i
find an asian grocery store and get a pig face mask for the pup to chew, but
that is purely for chewing and keeping the pup busy, not a meal, and not for
nutritional value.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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11a. Hello of Denmark
Posted by: "Tonny Surrow-Hansen" datura@brugmansia.dk tonny_surrow_hansen
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:17 pm ((PST))

Hi everybody,
I just found your forum today.

A little about me:

I am Tonny Surrow-Hansen. I live in Denmark, and have two dogs and
three cats. I have feed them with rawfood for ½ of a year. Especially
the old dog on 11 yrs was pretty messed up from eating the wrong food.
After a week eating raw stuff his bad smell disappeared. He used to
have a bath once a week to remove the smell, but that is not nessesary
anymore. He smell just fine now.

There was a lot more good things happening from changing their diets,
but more about that later.

Greetings of Denmark

Tonny

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Hello of Denmark
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 6:07 pm ((PST))

>There was a lot more good things happening from changing their diets,
but more about that later.

Welcome, Tonny! Wonderful to hear about how well your crew is doing on raw!

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "tammyco5@aol.com" tammyco5@aol.com tamm1232000
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 6:18 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone!
I joined this group a few days ago and I have learned so much from all of
you and have so much more to learn. I am almost sold on this diet as it just
makes so much sense. The part that worries me also are the bones and the trouble
they may cause. Anyways, this is my Pug's 3rd day on this diet. He eats
chicken leg quarters for now.

How much do you all spend a month average? I am in a financial mess right
now so I need to watch every penny. Any suggestions on how to do this frugally?
I'm a vegetarian so asking hunters for heads of deer or meat I need to
butcher just won't work. I did ask for old meat from their freezer on freecycle
that they were going to throw away. Someone is going to give me some and wants
to know what my dog likes. Should I just say everything or is there
something I should avoid?

Thank you in advance!
Tammy

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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12b. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Amy Tracy" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:00 pm ((PST))

Welcome Tammy,
You'll find a fair number of vegetarians and vegans on this list. I am
one as well. On this front, know that you'll grow in your comfort with
meat in stages. At first I couldn't bear to touch or cut it, and now,
almost two months later I'm flipping raw meat right and left. Take
yesterday, for instance: I watched Rosie knaw on a big meaty
three-pound pig leg ... and I also bought a chicken from an Asian
store that kills them for you in back while you wait. All growing
experiences! You'll be negotiating with hunters in no time!! We
probably spend $50 a month on meat. Happy eating!!
Amy (and Rosie)

On 1/4/08, tammyco5@aol.com <tammyco5@aol.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> I joined this group a few days ago and I have learned so much from all of
> you and have so much more to learn. I am almost sold on this diet as it just
>
> makes so much sense. The part that worries me also are the bones and the
> trouble
> they may cause. Anyways, this is my Pug's 3rd day on this diet. He eats
> chicken leg quarters for now.
>
> How much do you all spend a month average? I am in a financial mess right
> now so I need to watch every penny. Any suggestions on how to do this
> frugally?
> I'm a vegetarian so asking hunters for heads of deer or meat I need to
> butcher just won't work. I did ask for old meat from their freezer on
> freecycle
> that they were going to throw away. Someone is going to give me some and
> wants
> to know what my dog likes. Should I just say everything or is there
> something I should avoid?
>
> Thank you in advance!
> Tammy
>
>
>
> **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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12c. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:01 pm ((PST))

> How much do you all spend a month average? I am in a financial mess right
> now so I need to watch every penny. Any suggestions on how to do this
> frugally?

Watch for sales. I paid .69 per pound for unenhanced whole cut up
chickens today. With a larger dog you don't want the cut up chickens,
but my dogs are small (6 to 20 pounds) so a cut up chickens is
perfect. I little boys ate around 9% of there body weight today in
chicken and pork roast. They are soo full....

> I'm a vegetarian so asking hunters for heads of deer or meat I need to
> butcher just won't work. I did ask for old meat from their freezer on

You don't know any hunters or you don't think you can manage to cut up
the meat? If your speaking of cutting up the meat, It's not that bad.
I almost became a vegetarian,,,, then I joined this list and similar
human lists... Anyway, even if you are a vegetarian, you can handle
the meat. Many people do (handel the meat that are vegetarians). I
got myself to go into a slaughter house and dig through organs to get
Tripe for the dogs. It was a little gross at first, but then you get
used to it, and it isn't that bad. I just think of it this way, cows,
pigs, chickens, lamb, etc, they are all prey, there pourpose is to
become food for other creatures dogs / people. I hope this doesn't
offend you. I just wanted to offer my point of view.

> to know what my dog likes. Should I just say everything or is there
> something I should avoid?

Take it all. Offer it to your dog. If you can not get him to eat
something you can always toss it later.

Good Luck. Again, I applogize if I offended you at all, no offense is
intended by my statements.

>
Jamie

Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12459

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: worried
From: homesforallpets

2a. Pork Chittlings?
From: homesforallpets
2b. Re: Pork Chittlings?
From: costrowski75

3a. Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
3b. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Andrea
3c. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
3d. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Tina Berry
3e. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Yasuko herron
3f. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: ekendahl
3g. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: zcdz@aol.com
3h. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: costrowski75
3i. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
3j. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!/pork belly meat
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. Re: Chicken issues???
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: Chicken issues???
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: divasdesignerstore

7a. Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: SoldierGrrrl
7b. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: ekendahl

8a. Supplpements, Vit E, etc
From: T Smith
8b. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
From: Giselle

10a. Re: Allergy
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Re: worried
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:20 am ((PST))

One of their dogs just died all of a sudden. They
> have no idea what happened. They just went out and found her dead.
> Now I am having second thoughts as to whether it was something caused
> by the bones.

Did they have a necropsy done? If not you will never know what
happened. Also how old was the dog? I would not sweat it it was
probably NOT the diet.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (30)
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2a. Pork Chittlings?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:21 am ((PST))

What are these and are they ok to give dogs? Walmart has two sized
packages but all it says is they are chittlings from pigs.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Pork Chittlings?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:36 pm ((PST))

"homesforallpets" <homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
> What are these and are they ok to give dogs? Walmart has two sized
> packages but all it says is they are chittlings from pigs.
*****
That's cuz they are. Chitterlings ("chitlins") are cleaned and
processed pig intestines. They along with cleaned and processed cow
stomach (tripe) go into some interesting ethic and regional foods but
they do not need to go into your dog.

Pass 'em up.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:23 am ((PST))

Sorry this is so long, but I really need help!
I've been feeding raw to my 2 year old GSD mix for about a year and
half. Things have been great for the most part. We've been going
through a learning curve together. For the past couple months, I've
been having some troubles with him, though. He's lost a little weight
and I can't put it back on. He dropped from 85 to about 80 pounds,
but he should weigh about 87 -90 pounds. His poop is normal and his
behavior is normal, but his coat has gotten kind of rough, and he's
been shedding terribly and he's gotten a patch of very dry and flaky
skin. He's also been fasting himself a lot. He'll refuse to eat
about 2 or 3 days a week, and he's not eating enough on the days he
does eat.
I think we're out of balance and I need some advice to get back on
track and fatten him up. Here's our routine:
I feed him twice a day, most days and usually vary the feeding times.
Breakfast is usually between 7:30AM and 12:00, and dinner is usually
between 6:00PM and 10:30PM (a later breakfast calls for a later
dinner, of course). We usually skip breakfast on doggie day care days
and I offer a larger than normal dinner. I've been offering chicken,
beef, pork, and green tripe.
Chicken: I buy whole fryers and roasters when on sale, and he prefers
them quartered.
Beef: I usually offer ribs when they're cheap and readily available in
the summer, but this winter they've been harder to find, so I buy
whatever cut is on cheap mark down, which is often pot roast. I offer
them in approximately one pound strips. He doesn't really like huge
hunks of food, and will refuse to eat them, so I have to cut the hunks
into strips so they are still large enough that they require a lot of
chewing, but small enough that he doesn't feel intimidated.
Pork: Pork riblets are a staple. In addition, I buy whatever cut is
marked down and cheap, and of course stay away from belly meat.
Green Tripe: I provide one pound of green tripe twice a week.
Organs: here is where we're really out of balance and I need help. I
just can't figure out how much and how often to feed them. He doesn't
like organs, so I have to cut them in to tiny pieces and mix them with
his tripe or freeze them. At this point, I'm just kind of feeding
them randomly.
Other: When his skin started getting dry and flaky, I added an oil
supplement. After about a week or so of that, his fur is starting to
get greasy and dull. And, he is getting that "dog" smell about him.
Although, the dandruff has certainly subsided.

I really need to help him put on at least 5 pounds but preferably 7-10
pounds. I can see that he's not healthy right now, but I just don't
know how to help him. I'm desperate for advice.
Thank you!
Erica

Messages in this topic (10)
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3b. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:51 am ((PST))

The first thing I would do is switch to once a day feeding. I'd try
to feed more pork and beef than chicken as well. It sounds like he's
pretty fussy and he's making you do a lot more work than you need
to. Besides the fur how does he look? Are you starting to see all
of his ribs (or feel them clearly if his coat is long)?

As far as the organs, don't worry too much about them right now. But
if it makes you feel better you can measure out a week's worth of
organ and do your darndest to get him to eat it throughout the week.
If you're feeding him around 1.5lbs a day you would want to give him
about a pound of organ a week (half liver half something else).
Again, don't stress if you aren't getting that much, just keep it as
a target.

> When his skin started getting dry and flaky, I added an oil
> supplement. After about a week or so of that, his fur is starting
> to get greasy and dull. And, he is getting that "dog" smell about
> him.

What kind of oil supplement were you using? Try using fish body oil
(not cod liver oil) for the coat. My dogs have never gotten greasy
coats from fish oil, so hopefully that will help his skin.

So, feed only once a day and try to feed red meat instead of
chicken. Once you are more satisfied with his eating practices we
can work on his fussiness. Let us know how it goes.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (10)
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3c. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:27 pm ((PST))

Thanks Andrea,
Oh yeah, he's really bony. He's got a long coat, but you can
easily feel his ribs. My target weight for him is 87-90 pounds so I'd
like to get him to eat about 1.75-2.5 pounds per day. He's probably
only eating about 1 - 1.5 per day. I've noticed that he's started to
develop some eye goop for the first time. Just these last couple
months, about the same time as his skin started drying out, I noticed
that he'd wake up most mornings with a big boogie in one or both eyes.
I don't know if that is indicative or anything, but he's never had
that before.
So, the symptoms I'm noticing are weight loss, and being very
skinny, frequent fasting and reduced appetite, terrible shedding, dry
flaky skin, dull greasy coat, and eye boogies.
The oil supplement I've been giving his is "Dream Coat". The
ingredients are: Soybean Oil, Wheatgerm Oil, Safflower Oil, Sunflower
Oil, Garlic Oil, Cod Liver Oil, Anise.
Thanks for the help!!
Erica

Messages in this topic (10)
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3d. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:52 pm ((PST))

"I feed him twice a day, most days and usually vary the feeding times.
Breakfast is usually between 7:30AM and 12:00, and dinner is usually between
6:00PM and 10:30PM (a later breakfast calls for a later
dinner, of course). We usually skip breakfast on doggie day care days and I
offer a larger than normal dinner. I've been offering chicken, beef, pork,
and green tripe. Chicken: I buy whole fryers and roasters when on sale, and
he prefers them quartered. "

This sounds like a good mix of meats. I would first find out if anything is
medically wrong with him but only let a licensed homeopath treat him - vets
are good for running some tests.

If there is nothing medically wrong, I would also suggest once a day
feedings, sounds like he has you trained ;-)

My big boy should weigh 95lbs and he gets 1.25 lbs once a day of venison, a
daily egg and fishoil. If I want him to gain weight, I feed more. I also
run him 2 miles per day (playing fetch so I don't have to run). I probably
average 2% of his ideal body weight since he also gets a large meaty bone
every other day or so.

So if nothing is wrong with your boy, feed him once a day at different times
if you can, this will increase his appetite only eating once a day and
hopefully make him not as picky. By switching two once a day, he won't feel
full all of the time. I would try this first.

My order of meats that IMO are the best is red meat, wild if you can get it,
which is why I feed 100% venison. If you can't get red meat, then turkey,
pork, chicken are next.

Oh, and ditch the "dream coat" feed 100% salmon oil - the oil you are
feeding is GRAIN. Which is like feeding him grain everyday - which is why
you are most likely getting the reaction you are getting.

If you are occassionally feeding liver, no need for cod liver oil, this is
Vit A & D and you can feed too much in supplements and it is absorbed by the
body, it is not water soluble like Vit C. Liver is sufficient.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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3e. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

>The oil supplement I've been giving his is "Dream Coat". The
ingredients are: Soybean Oil, Wheatgerm Oil, Safflower Oil, Sunflower
Oil, Garlic Oil, Cod Liver Oil, Anise.

Is this "dream coat" for better coat?? If so,stop the Dream Coat supplement andgive fish body oil.That is much better.

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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3f. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
> I've noticed that he's started to develop some eye goop for the
first > time. Just these last couple months, about the same time as
his skin > started drying out, I noticed that he'd wake up most
mornings with a
> big boogie in one or both eyes.I don't know if that is indicative or
> anything, but he's never had that before.

My two German Shepherds both have gunk in the morning (I find it kinda
cute), so it's probably not indicative of anything.

Have you taken him to the vet? From what you describe it to me feels
like something more then diet is going on.

> The oil supplement I've been giving his is "Dream Coat". The
> ingredients are: Soybean Oil, Wheatgerm Oil, Safflower Oil,
> Sunflower, Oil, Garlic Oil, Cod Liver Oil, Anise.

Ungh, Not sure I would feed my pets that stuff... Seems like a start
of an upset stomach to me.

I heard from my breeder that soybeans are a common allergen for dogs.
Not sure what she based that on.

But if I where you I would worry more about weight and refusing to eat
then fur at this point and eliminate this supplement for now.

Does he have normal energy?

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

3g. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "zcdz@aol.com" zcdz@aol.com zziska
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

Erica,

Apologies if this has already been addressed. Are his gums pale? Is his
energy down? For weight loss and loss of appetite you should take him to the
vet- especially if this is a recent and sudden change in his attitude.

Ziska
www.ziskac.blogspot.com

**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

3h. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:10 pm ((PST))

"millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
> I've been feeding raw to my 2 year old GSD mix for about a year and
> half. Things have been great for the most part. We've been going
> through a learning curve together. For the past couple months, I've
> been having some troubles with him, though. He's lost a little
weight
> and I can't put it back on. He dropped from 85 to about 80 pounds,
> but he should weigh about 87 -90 pounds. His poop is normal and his
> behavior is normal, but his coat has gotten kind of rough, and he's
> been shedding terribly and he's gotten a patch of very dry and flaky
> skin. He's also been fasting himself a lot. He'll refuse to eat
> about 2 or 3 days a week, and he's not eating enough on the days he
> does eat.
*****
Job One IMO is to get bloodwork done including a full thyroid
workup. While you are waiting for an appointment and results you can
be reworking the menu. The changes you describe are just too
numerous and profound to lay off solely on diet.

I've been offering chicken,
> beef, pork, and green tripe.
*****
Green tripe is not generally fatty; if you know the version you feed
is, good; if you don't know, find out. The green tripe I usually get
comes highly recommended for IBD dogs and to feed pancreatitis
patients because it is quite lean.

> Chicken: I buy whole fryers and roasters when on sale, and he
prefers
> them quartered.
*****
How many quarters do you feed? How big are they? Are they nice and
fatty?

Beef: I usually offer ribs when they're cheap and readily available
in
> the summer, but this winter they've been harder to find, so I buy
> whatever cut is on cheap mark down, which is often pot roast.
*****
Pot roasts are nice and fatty. Beef ribs offer fat but there's just
not a lot of food there, so you may be providing the kid with lots of
stuff but not enough nourishment.

> Pork: Pork riblets are a staple. In addition, I buy whatever cut
is
> marked down and cheap, and of course stay away from belly meat.
*****
Pork riblets are good, yes. Pork is good. Why are you of course
staying away from belly meat?

> Organs: here is where we're really out of balance and I need
help. I
> just can't figure out how much and how often to feed them.
*****
Some, occasionally. I rarely if ever know how much organ meat I am
feeding or have fed. If you need numbers, 5% of your dog's diet can
be liver (doesn't matter which critter, just something he likes).
This can be 5% of each meal or 5% of his monthly menu. Doesn't
matter. Some dogs do better with bits in most meals, other dogs are
comfortable with bigger doses fed less often. Feeding "ramdomly" is
not bad. That pretty much describes how I feed organs.

But my guess is your boy's problems are not related to his organ
intake.

I added an oil
> supplement. After about a week or so of that, his fur is starting
to
> get greasy and dull. And, he is getting that "dog" smell about
him.
> Although, the dandruff has certainly subsided.
*****
The oil supplement you use sounds really really excessive, not to
mention largely inappropriate. Your boy doesn't need a single mg of
plant-based oil. Not a one. Nary a zip taste of the stuff. If you
are going to supplement with oil, use a fish- or marine-based body
oil (salmon, mixed fish, or seal) and that's it.

As described, I see little "wrong" with your menu except maybe a lack
of fat. You can add beef heart for more red meat, including the fat
on it; you might cut back on the tripe if it's lean; you may want to
increase the number of meals as well as the amount of food you offer.

I think bloodwork is a priority here.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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3i. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:36 pm ((PST))

No, his gums are fine and energy level are fine.
I should clarify his lack of appetite - he has a lack of appetite for
what I'm feeding him, but he continues to beg for our food, sneak cat
food, gobble down treats, etc. We went to the in-laws for Christmas,
where they feed kibble to their dog. We put the kibble up so he
couldn't get to it, but he kept hanging around her feeding area and
trolling for misplaced kibbles. He's hungry, he's just trying to win
the battle of wills. I shouldn't have called it lack of appetite.
Erica

Messages in this topic (10)
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3j. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!/pork belly meat
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:36 pm ((PST))

Hi Erica,

I'm just curious why do you stay away from pork belly meat?

Thanks,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:

> Pork: Pork riblets are a staple. In addition, I buy whatever cut is
> marked down and cheap, and of course stay away from belly meat.

Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:27 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dario" <nanterossi@...> wrote:
>
> Question is: How likely is it a chicken allergy ?

Almost none. 3 weeks on exclusivly chicken is really not a big deal.

> Has anyone had this experience ?

> Should I wait until he has finished his Advocate course ( end
> of Jan) before leaving chicken out of his diet?

I wouldn't leave chicken at this point. Everything that happens to
a dog is not diet related. If you are still feeding chicken only
and he is digesting well, I think it's time to gradually add in
other protein sources.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:12 pm ((PST))

Most likely not an allergy. It does sound a little like mange, but also
could be the result of Advocate....nasty ingredients with lots of side
effects.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "dario" <nanterossi@yahoo.co.uk>

My Staffordshire puppy is 4.5 months today and has a couple of bald spots.
one above his
left eye near the ear and one on the left shoulder. They seem stable but not
improving. He
is on Advocate. I am considering that maybe its puppy mange...but could I
have overdone
it on the chicken when I gave it to him exclusively, in different forms for
about 3 weeks at
the beginning of his raw feeding. These patches appeared after that and he
has had them
for about 4 weeks.

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:55 am ((PST))

LOL Evie....been there, done that, even been called names! One lady wrote
me privately and told me I was full of crap! :) I suppose that is a
possibility, but not very likely!! HA!!

But you hit the nail on the head...they don't want to learn. They only want
to defend what they have believed and been doing in the past. One of the
big issues is not being able to discern the difference between fact and
everything else. As we well know, there isn't much fact regarding
appropriate diet on most lists. Many of them are staunch Billinghurst
followers and believe his nonsense about dogs being omnivores, eating the
stomach contents of their prey, etc. To them, cuz he said it, must be true!
:))

Post the real truth (aka facts) with quotes from Mech and others and they
get pissed! There is very little open mindedness or ability to think
logically.
Oh well, kinda like banging your head against a wall. Feels so good when
you quit! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Evie" <archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk>

Well I was accussed of sarcasim (spl?) and vulgarity. So I politely
declinded to take part in the disscussion any further. When someone
is reduced to name calling, it just shows that they have nothing of
intelligence to say and aren't open for an interesting and
enlightening debate. Def not worth the effort!

Messages in this topic (15)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "divasdesignerstore" divasdesignerstore@yahoo.com divasdesignerstore
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "divasdesignerstore" <divasdesignerstore@> wrote:>
> >I also think that when you are
> > switching from a kibble diet to a raw appropriate diet it is a
> shock
> > to their stomach.
> *****
> I think it's more a shock to their expectations, to their brain.
And
> to the human. I am sympathetic to your situation but I really do
> believe you are reading into it more difficulty than it warrants.

****
I'm sorry but I would have to disagree.
If I were to eat say a whole chicken for dinner every night for a
year and then one night decide I'm just going to have a chicken leg
instead. I can bet that I am going to be looking for more food
because I won't feel satisfied or as full as I usually do. Whether it
is my brain or my stomach telling me so. I don't think I am reading
to much into it. I think the point I was trying to make was when you
switch to a raw diet they may not feel as full or satisfied as they
once did on a pile of kibble because the amounts are astonishingly
different.
That's like saying an overweight person can go from what they
normally eat to a salad a day and not feel hungry.
>
> My 30 pound dog only gets about a pound of
> > food a day. They are also supposed to be on a diet. ;)
> Hmm.
> A 30# dog in good stead might get two percent of its weight, which
> would would be between 9 and 10 ounces. A day. A 30# dog that's a
> fuel-injected, hemi-headed hot rod might get three percent of its
> weight, or around 14 ounces. Neither scenario justifies 16 ounces
of
> food a day!
>
> If your pug should oughta weigh 30#, feed him between 9 and 10
ounces
> a day. If your pug should oughta weigh less than that, feed him
two
> percent of what he should oughta be. I guarantee the amount is not
> 16 ounces!

****
I meant 1/2 a pound a day. oops my bad :(

> Check the boy's thyroid, feed an appropriate amount of real food,
> exercise him in whatever small ways you can, and stick to it.

****
Thanks I will do that!

> Chris O
>

****Audrey

Messages in this topic (19)
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7a. Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "SoldierGrrrl" soldier.grrrl@gmail.com looking4godgirl
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

Hi all!

I wanted to drop a quick line and introduce our family and give some
background on us.

Jen- That's me, your lovely author and blonde extraordinaire!

John- My husband, and sometimes, I swear he's a puppy in a boysuit!

Moxie- The 15-17 lb. Horrible Little Dog, also known as the
Four-Legged-Garbage-Disposal-What-Likes-Pickles-and-Apple-Cores. You
can see me, John and Moxie here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/soldiergrrrl/sets/72157603496334314/

So, we adopted Moxie from the shelter in July, and although it's been
a bit of a rocky ride, she's made our lives so much richer!

She does suffer from some food anxiety, since she's convinced that the
only way she's going to survive the impending Great Food and Chewie
Shortage is to eat *everything* in the house that she can Hoover up.
So, I asked about this on the Peaceable Paws list and Giselle directed
me here. I've done a bit of reading and I think I'm getting a handle
on it. I had asked about free-feeding to alleviate the fear of the
food going "poof," and after doing the reading, John and I have
decided to give the raw food a try.

Right now, Moxie just came back from being boarded over our Christmas
trip, and so we're going through the post-kennel blahs (she's been
vaxed for bordatella, but every time she comes back from the kennel,
she's a bit lethargic and tend to run a bit hot, going by the
ear-fins, but I think that's the same post-trip blahs I get.)

Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a day.
I'd probably round up to eight ounces, but that's because it's much
easier to divide eight ounces up than seven. I'm thinking about
dividing it all up to make four feedings a day, one before work, one
at lunch, one after work and one around our dinner time. Good, bad,
indifferent?

I'm guessing a good scale is needed to weight it all out.

Also, we live in Texas, and God knows deer-hunting is big here. Does
anyone else feed venison?

I'm sure you've all heard the questions six million times, but I
thought an introduction would be a good thing. Thanks for reading
this far!

Jen

--
Blonde. It's not just a hair color; it's a way of life.

http://soldiergrrrl.livejournal.com/

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:14 pm ((PST))

Hi Jen,

Yes, you could start out with four meals per day, but those are going to be
some mighty small meals. You may discover that she will do better with
larger, more fulfilling portions. That's something you will have to
experiment with.

Venison is awesome...better than chicken any day! :)

Oh, and OT for this list but NO more vaccs for this girl *ever*!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "SoldierGrrrl" <soldier.grrrl@gmail.com>
>
> Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
> 2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a day.
> I'd probably round up to eight ounces, but that's because it's much
> easier to divide eight ounces up than seven. I'm thinking about
> dividing it all up to make four feedings a day, one before work, one
> at lunch, one after work and one around our dinner time. Good, bad,
> indifferent?

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:37 pm ((PST))

> From: "SoldierGrrrl" <soldier.grrrl@...>
>
> Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
> 2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a
> day. I'd probably round up to eight ounces

Not sure how you did you math. If I put "15 lbs * 3% to oz" into
google (yes, they have a smart calculator as well) I get 7.2 oz and
"15 lbs * 2% to oz" I get 4.8 oz.

So to me, 8 oz seems like a lot for her. Unless she's very active my
guess would be that 5 oz/day is more appropriate.

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Supplpements, Vit E, etc
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

I need more info about supplementing. And percentages...
I was defending the RMB I was taught as 80% meat, 10% bones, 10% organ (5%
is liver)
Fish oil is your dog doesn't eat real raw fish.

This is what I was sent:
follow this basic regime:

60% Raw Meaty Bones (meat with bone – chicken necks, backs,
etc.)

35% Muscle Meat (meat without bones)

5% Organ Meat (liver, kidney, lungs, etc.)

0% veggie mush

It is from this website:

http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdietbasics.htm

Which you will see also recommends vite E, etc

I thought only supplements were fish oil, if they didn't eat raw fish? We
give our salmon....

HELP!
Trina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:29 pm ((PST))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:>
> I need more info about supplementing. And percentages...
> I was defending the RMB I was taught as 80% meat, 10% bones, 10%
organ (5%
> is liver)
> Fish oil is your dog doesn't eat real raw fish.
*****
This is indeed close enough for folk music. The only change I would
make is to suggest feeding fish oil to support the entire diet, not
simply to compensate for missed fish meals. Otherwise, you are good
to go, girl!

> This is what I was sent:
> follow this basic regime:
>
> 60% Raw Meaty Bones (meat with bone – chicken necks,
backs,
> etc.)
>
> 35% Muscle Meat (meat without bones)
>
> 5% Organ Meat (liver, kidney, lungs, etc.)
>
> 0% veggie mush
>
>
> It is from this website:
>
> http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdietbasics.htm
>
>
> Which you will see also recommends vite E, etc
*****
And all this is someone's idea of a raw diet but I promise you on a
stack of Sears catalogs that it's not ours. Do not think of food in
terms of RMBs, think of body parts with meat, with bone or without
bone. Do not think that chicken necks, backs etc. are appropriate
body parts.

Do not worry about vitamin E. Just fish oil, that's plenty good.

I believe you have been doing quite well with the information you've
received on Rawfeeding. I believe your dogs are settling down,
getting along nicely on the menu you've worked up.

Rawdogranch has its own agenda. If the owner of the website were to
visit the rawfeeding list, we could ask why these recommendations
were made. But that's not likely to happen. Stick with what you'vel
learned, kid. You can't go wrong.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:36 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:

> I thought only supplements were fish oil, if they didn't eat
> raw fish? We give our salmon....

Trina! Stop that! You go out and read websites and have a tendency
to believe anything you read. Just stop reading sites that you
don't see recommended here. Vitamin E is totally unnecessary. All
the dog needs is in the raw meat, bones, and organs he eats. You
were right originally. No supplements needed. You can give fish
oil of you don't feed fish but nothing else is necessary and I'm not
sure the fish oil is necessary.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:01 pm ((PST))

Hi, Uh, I'm not sure what your name is!

With a long time 'gastritis' such as your dog has, I'd suspect IBD/IBS
- Irritable Bowel Disease/Syndrome.

If your girl, what's her name?, were my dog, I would simplify, simplify,
simplify, and provide something soothing for her inflamed and irritated
digestive system while a 'new', refocused diet has a chance to take shape.

1) NO grains or starches
2) NO veggies or fruits
3) NO supps or additives
4) NO people food or 'treats'
5) NO enhanced meats of any kind

1) Rest her digestive system for a day, or two. Offer lf/ls broth, as much
as she wants, chicken or turkey is fine.

2) Whisk Slippery Elm Bark Powder into the broth. This is a soothing herb
that will reduce the irritation and inflammation in her stomach and
intestines while her system rests.

3) When you reintroduce food, feed a different protein - I'd use turkey.
Whole, minimally processed turkeys, cut into serving size portions. Trim all
visible fat. Maybe trim off most of the skin, too. Don't feed the liver, but
the heart and gizzards should be ok.

4) For the first week, I'd feed only meat, no bone, to minimize the
possibility of irritation. I'd plan to gradually reintroduce more bone
gradually, but keep it to a bare minimum of 10% of her total intake, but be
aware that she may do much better on less than even that.

5) Again, for the first week, I'd feed less than a full day's ration - and
divide it into at least 3 meals. Gradually increase the amount to her full
ration - even if she is too thin, I'd keep the daily portion smaller than
her EIABW (estimated ideal adult body weight) - increase her daily ration by
adding a 4th small meal, and increase that gradually.

6) Sprinkle SEBP onto each meal, to keep her innards soothed and reduce the
possibility of a flare up.

7) I'd keep her on the turkey, or chicken and the SEBP (if I elected to use
minimally processed, unenhanced chicken) for several weeks, until she shows
no evidence of irritation or digestive upset and is gaining weight (if she
needs to gain). You can try trimming less and less of the fat and skin, but
most IBD/IBS dogs don't tolerate much fat and skin amounts need to be
strictly controlled.

8) She may not need enzymes or probiotics, I wouldn't start off with them -
but if I were going to introduce them,
a) enzymes are fed with a meal.
b) probiotics are fed between meals
c) I'd use only human grade products that need to be refrigerated and have
no plant based ingredients or additives.
d) I'd start off with a small dose of each, or either, and wean them away
pdq.

9) After several weeks, or a few months, I'd add a bit of liver to one of
her daily meals, maybe only 1/4 of a chicken or turkey liver, about twice or
three times a week. If she tolerated this, its all she really needs of
liver.

10) After she is tolerating the one protein and liver, I'd add another
protein, gradually. I'd do pork next, myself. I'd trim all skin and fat off.
Add a tiny bit to each meal of the chicken/turkey for a day. No problem?
Add a bit more of the pork to each meal, gradually increasing the amount of
pork while decreasing the amount of chicken/turkey, until I was feeding all
pork.

11) After a few weeks of feeding just pork and chicken/turkey, alternately,
I'd begin to introduce a new protein, maybe beef, maybe, rabbit (it may be
too bony), maybe mackerel or sardines or goat or lamb - but each introduced
gradually, with weeks in between for her to adjust to each addition. And
after a few new proteins are added, I'd introduce several new organs -
kidney, spleen, sweetbreads, etc. in the same small portions that the liver
was introduced.

12) With each addition of a new protein or organ, I'd continue to sprinkle
SEBP on the meals. It won't hurt, and can help to keep the gut soothed.

13) ANYTIME she showed signs of irritation or digestive upset, I'd back off
to the simplest, easiest most well tolerated protein. If there was signs of
more than just a little discomfort - pain, explosive runny stools,
vomiting, frank blood - I'd rest her digestive system for a day or two, feed
broth and SEBP, and restart slowly and gradually.

BASIC STUFF
Dogs need to eat a raw, species appropriate, whole prey model diet - but
there is plenty of room to tweak it, as in the case of health problems such
as IBD/IBS.

Dogs also need protein and organ variety, and variety of body parts. If you
can't feed whole prey, then FrankenPrey it must be!

Dogs need a 'balance' of about 80% meat - muscle, skin, fat, connective
tissue or organs such as heart, gizzards and tongue
10% organs - 3-5% liver and 5-7% 'other', like spleen, kidney, sweetbreads,
etc.
10% EDIBLE bone - relatively soft, completely consumable cartilage and bone
If a bone can't be readily eaten by a dog, then the part that isn't eaten
can't count in the diet - and what isn't eaten should be binned when the
'goodness' is stripped off.

BUT, individual dogs will require more or less the %s quoted, especially
dogs with broken immune systems and health problems. Adjusting each % is a
"Know Thy Dog" thing, and is only learned through experience, and changes as
the dog ages.

Most adult dogs need about 2-3% of their estimated ideal adult body weight
to maintain. This is a general guideline; pups, small/tiny dogs, dogs who
are active or are performance dogs, spend a lot of time outdoors in cold
weather, are pregnant or lactating, etc. may need more, maybe as much as
4-6% or even more. In some cases, large/giant breeds, 'couch spuds',
overweight, elderly, mobility or health challenged dogs may need less than
2% to maintain or lose weight. Again, its a "Know Thy Dog" guesstimate that
changes over time.

I've gotten my SEBP here;
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
but health food stores often carry it in caps and bulk.

Salmon oil can provide needed O3s, but adding oil/fat can be problematic in
an IBD/IBS dog. I'd hold off on this for a few months, and opt to dose in
tiny doses with lean/trimmed proteins and gradually build up to a
therapeutic or maintenance dose, or what she can tolerate.

The best way to keep an IBD/IBS dog on an even keel is to be very cautious,
and feed small, feed often, feed lean, introduce variety slowly and offer
digestive rest, broth and SEBP proactively, whenever a flare seems imminent.

You can print this out if it will help.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jesey

On Jan 4, 2008 1:19 PM, riceaide <riceaide@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> She no longer gets the vitamins or carrots. When I am cooking the
> chicken (such as now, when she's had several bad days in a row), I
> give potatoes and bone meal powder, too. Both seem to help firm her
> stools, and calm the gastric upset.
> **** Yes, potatoes, bone meal, even cooked meats can seem to solve the
> problem - but they work by eliminating fat and skin from the equation and
> will add bulk to artificially firm the stool - a fix, but ultimately not a
> really helpful one. Giselle ****
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: Allergy
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:38 pm ((PST))

>The "novel" meat protein comes into play if the dog responds badly to
all the meat proteins it is normally fed.

Oh ok. Thanks,Chris.I was thinking that elimination diet hasto be on something dog never had before...but I can choose one protin to start with like Bill waswriting in his post then.

Thanks,again

yassy

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12458

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bought today..
From: Andrea

2a. Re: raw feeding success
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Allergies?
From: Carrin
3b. Re: Allergies?
From: costrowski75

4a. Question from semi-newbie
From: Annette
4b. Re: Question from semi-newbie
From: Andrea

5a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Allergy
From: costrowski75

7a. small dog - new
From: zooper50
7b. Re: small dog - new
From: Andrea

8a. Newbie/Lurker question
From: Sherri Johnson
8b. Re: Newbie/Lurker question
From: Chia
8c. Re: Newbie/Lurker question
From: Tina Berry
8d. Re: Newbie/Lurker question
From: Andrea

9. Raw feeding 2 weeks
From: Ashleigh Stevenson

10.1. Re: worried
From: scarebetty

11a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Darjeelingirl
11b. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Chia
11c. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Evie

12a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: divasdesignerstore
12b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: costrowski75
12c. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: ginny wilken

13a. Chicken issues???
From: dario
13b. Re: Chicken issues???
From: costrowski75

14a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
From: riceaide

Messages
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1a. Re: Bought today..
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:07 am ((PST))

Hi, Prism, sounds like you ended up with a good amount of stuff.
Pork rib bones could be baby back, spare ribs? For a Maltese any
kind of pork ribs should be ok.

Your boy should have no problem consuming any of the chicken bones,
but you'll have to determine for yourself whether or not you want to
feed the neck or lone wings. I would imagine that a dog of his size
should be ok eating them but if he isn't a very polite eater you may
want to stash the questionable items in the freezer for a later
date. IMO you shouldn't cut up the neck.

Good for you not buying the supermarket tripe. The white stuff is
for human consumption and doesn't have much nutritional use anymore.
You're doing great, let us know how things go.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:

> I gave my Maltese the meaty thigh bone today which he readily ate
> all up. Did you say he can or can't have the meaty leg bones, neck,
> back? If I recall he can have the back but it's not very meaty, and
> the neck (which makes me nervous) and should I cut up the neck
> bones or just give as one piece?

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: raw feeding success
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "monicabeth10" <monicabeth10@...>
wrote:
>
> I have a couple of questions. First, I got oxtails from a friend who
> raises cattle. Are these safe?

As long as it's the whole tail and not chopped up into little bits,
its safe.

> Second, how important is tripe?

Not at all. I have never fed it in my life.

> I have read this is important.

Some people try to make it a superfood but it's not.

> And
> what is the difference between green and white tripe?
>
Green tripe is unprocessed and has a few nutrients in it. White tripe
is processed and has NO nutrients.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Allergies?
Posted by: "Carrin" mntgrl_2000@yahoo.com mntgrl_2000
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:12 am ((PST))

Uhoh...maybe I should have done more homework before starting. I'm
pretty sure that it is an allergy to something in his environment (when
we are on vacation, he doesn't itch). I just assumed that raw would
help his body cope better with allergies in general.

Poor guy....I am so frustrated for the itchy guy!

Carrin

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Allergies?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:38 am ((PST))

"Carrin" <mntgrl_2000@...> wrote:
>I just assumed that raw would
> help his body cope better with allergies in general.
*****
It certaily can. How long have you been feeding raw and have you also
addressed environmental irritants? You can't get anywhere without a
good species appropriate diet but that alone is rarely the solution to
all problems.

I know I was very fortunate that my golden's allergies dried up and
blew away when I moved him to raw food--in following six years he had
maybe one hot spot and no more hives or rashy tummies--but I also
stopped vaccinating him and quit poisoning him. It all works together
and it does invariably take at least some time.

To over simplify, perhaps consider this: Raw food as a weapon against
food allergies works immediately by ridding the diet of inappropriate
food (or foodlike substances) and replacing the junk with high quality,
easily-digested proteins. That's the first volley, the quick fix.

But good species appropriate food also helps rebuild the immune system
(along with environment management) by working from within. This is
the long term project, the rebuilding after the war, the reassembling
of the infrastructure. It takes time.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Question from semi-newbie
Posted by: "Annette" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:13 am ((PST))

Hi everyone! My 8 year old 26lb. dachshund has now been on raw for
about 3 weeks.So far so good I guess. Her poops are still quite soft
and she's been itching a bit although I don't know if the itching could
be due to the dry air.I feed her a chickendrumstick and some pieces of
steak.I still braise the chicken for just a few seconds before giving
it to her to bring out the flavor more. Am I feeding enough and could I
also give her some lean ground beef or some pork chops? I've been
reading posts on fish oil,how do give that? Mine will not take capsules
no matter how I give them to her,even if they wrapped in meat she will
take it but then spit out the capsule.Thanks in advance for your
advice! Annette.

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Question from semi-newbie
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:42 am ((PST))

The general guideline for feeding is about 2-3% of the ideal body
weight per day. After that starting point you adjust to see what looks
good on the dog. If she's on the chunky side and not leaning out you
may want to decrease the food, if she's losing weight that she doesn't
need to you can increase the food.

> could I also give her some lean ground beef or some pork chops?

Ground beef doesn't have much to offer since there is no chewing
required. I don't buy it unless it is on super duper sale. Pork would
be a good protein to go to if she's good with the beef and chicken, but
I wouldn't use pork chops. The cut bone can have sharp edges and
depending on the size of the dog it could be a choking hazard. I have
much more luck with pork roasts or slabs of ribs when they are on sale.

> I've been reading posts on fish oil,how do give that? Mine will not
> take capsules no matter how I give them to her

Have you tried giving her fish oil capsules yet? Many dogs who aren't
fans of pills happily take fish oil capsules. My cats not so much, so
I have to pierce the gelcap and squeeze some of the oil out before they
will eat it. You could also get the oil in liquid form and squirt it
onto the food.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:49 am ((PST))

"vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
But I do feed a lot of chiken,
> since it's a good bone source and he digests it well. So I am
> wondering if we are all getting the same problem from chicken.
****
It's possible but you won't know if chicken is your dog's problem til
you stop feeding it for a while. If his symptoms diminish you might
assume the cause was the chicken; but if other influences in his life
were also changed you might not have as clear a picture as you would
like.

Certainly leave off the chicken for now; doing something is better than
doing nothing in this case. Also consider what environmental irritants
may be at work.

You should also, in the bigger picture, work to get variety into his
diet. A chicken-heavy menu isn't necessarily the worst thing in the
world but it sure can be improved.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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6a. Re: Allergy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:07 am ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> We still can use the protin source that dog hashad before?? I
thought we couldn't.
*****
The "novel" meat protein comes into play if the dog responds badly to
all the meat proteins it is normally fed.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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7a. small dog - new
Posted by: "zooper50" zooper1@juno.com zooper50
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:47 am ((PST))

What bones are small enough and "good" enough to give a 4 lb. dog?

Teri

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: small dog - new
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 9:51 am ((PST))

At first a tiny dog may not be able to do much damage to anything
larger than small chickens or cornish game hens. As time goes on the
jaw strength will increase and larger bones might be consumed. The
good thing is you can give large bones to a little'un even if they
won't consume the bone. I'd imagine that many pork bones would be too
big to consume as well as deer, some goat, etc. But you never know how
strong the little guys can be.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "zooper50" <zooper1@...> wrote:
>
> What bones are small enough and "good" enough to give a 4 lb. dog?

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Newbie/Lurker question
Posted by: "Sherri Johnson" edana@shaw.ca edanaaussie
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:48 am ((PST))

Hi All,

I have been lurking and learning here for awhile and started bringing some of the info I was getting back to hubby.just before Christmas. He wasn't into the idea of raw feeding but is getting used to it now. Especially since I brought home our new family member. She is a 9 week old Brittany Spaniel pup (8 lbs). Bliss (the pup) is being fed Natures Variety (add a .com for their website) and loves their rabbit formula. I want to switch her as well as my Aussies (ranging from 1-8 years and 30-48 lbs) over to raw. My aussies do get chicken/turkey necks and backs as well as they absolutely love beef liver. And of course thier kibble (Purina ProPlan Preformance).
My worry is that hubby only wants to buy prepackaged stuff. He is not open to the idea of feeding bones (unless they are knuckle bones) to the pup.
Where can I go to show him the difference in prepackaged raw versus barf raw?

Thanks in advance and I really love this list. Many new ideas!!

Sherri Johnson
http://www.edana.ca

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Newbie/Lurker question
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 9:03 am ((PST))

Hi All,

I have been lurking and learning here for awhile and started bringing some
of the info I was getting back to hubby.just before Christmas. He wasn't
into the idea of raw feeding but is getting used to it now. Especially since
I brought home our new family member. She is a 9 week old Brittany Spaniel
pup (8 lbs). Bliss (the pup) is being fed Natures Variety (add a .com for
their website) and loves their rabbit formula. I want to switch her as well
as my Aussies (ranging from 1-8 years and 30-48 lbs) over to raw. My aussies
do get chicken/turkey necks and backs as well as they absolutely love beef
liver. And of course thier kibble (Purina ProPlan Preformance).

##### congratulations on your new puppy! It is so odd, I am not sure,
exactly, why MEN seem to always have issues with raw feeding. I suppose it
is because women are a bit more pro-active in the health of themselves,
their children, and their pets. I know that doesn't apply to all, BUT, it
seems, always, that husbands etc are always a royal pain in the #@#^ . ;-))

Nature's Variety must be some sort of ground concoction? This is NOT
appropriate food for your little carnivore. Your husband objects because he
just doesn't have the knowledge of how a dog's body digest and eliminates
food. Once one becomes empowered with knowledge, it is VERY obvious that
feeding a particular species appropriate for what they were meant to digest
in nature is the BEST for them, period.

Check out and read ALL the links @ www.rawfeddogs.com and MOST if not ALL of
his and your questions will be answered. Make sure and read all about the
damages of vaccines there as well since you should be questioning not just
what you feed but the other chemicals and poisons that mainstream vets harm
our beautiful pets with.

I am unsure as to why you say 'of course' their kibble. Kibble is toxic
garbage, much like feeding your children junk food. There is NOTHING
positive about feeding it whatsoever. It is chemicals, dyes, cooked
protein, and sugars/grains. Feeding raw and kibble in unison usually
creates digestive stress and your dog has no way of telling you. Tampering
with nature predisposes animals to unnatural outcomes when ALL of this can
be avoided by just feeding fresh, raw, REAL foods.

Imagine a Wolf...imagine Wolf puppies. See the Mom bringing or
regurgitating up hunks and slabs of meat for a younger pup. Once your pup
is slightly older, she can have whole carcasses or VERY large pieces but it
is best too feed fairly large, right from the get-go, so your pup can learn
how to rip, tear, chomp. This not only warms up those stomach acids,
something that NEVER happens with ground crap, but it creates a contented,
tired pup, and will eventually assist her with those baby teeth coming out
without anyone's assistance.

So, read up....Purchase whole chickens, lop into half, then maybe a quarter,
and feed it to her three times per day until gone. Stick with that for a
week or two before introducing new proteins or organs. This is simple.
Expensive pre-ground mixes have things added to it that are NOT appropriate
and the meal itself is TOO quickly consumed and completely non-beneficial in
any way.

Chia & Ricco

(p.s. knuckle bones should NEVER be given...tooth damage just waiting to
happen. Your husband and yourself just need to read up and trust nature.
Remember, there are THOUSANDS of us here that do this every day. You will
NOT find people, anywhere else, who love their dogs and make sure they get
the very best ,as you will here. Most of us plan, shop appropriately, do
not give chemicals and drugs, and stand up to mainstream society's warped
view of appropriate health care)

My worry is that hubby only wants to buy prepackaged stuff. He is not open
to the idea of feeding bones (unless they are knuckle bones) to the pup.
Where can I go to show him the difference in prepackaged raw versus barf
raw?

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8c. Re: Newbie/Lurker question
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 10:11 am ((PST))

"My worry is that hubby only wants to buy prepackaged stuff. He is not open
to the idea of feeding bones (unless they are knuckle bones) to the pup."

Congrats on your new puppy. Pre-packaged stuff is not only expensive, but
lots of the fillers they use (ie. fruits/veggies) are simply not needed.
Knuckle bones for an adult dog will break their teeth and/or grind them down
to nubs over time. For a pup, they may not cause much damage but are simply
for recreation, not nutrition.

Keep it simple - buy whatever is on sale. If you live where there are
butchers, meat processors, hunters, the best to feed is wild game. If this
is not an option, then my first choice is turkey on sale. I've also fed 50%
whole chickens (no additives, hormones) and 50% beef heart for a year when I
lived in the city.

Currently mine get 100% venison, a daily egg and fishoil - that's it. Every
few days they get a rack of ribs as my venison is meat only, no bone, in
8lbs bags of scraps from the butcher.

Good luck with your new pup - and remember to keep it simple; raw should be
easy.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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8d. Re: Newbie/Lurker question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 10:17 am ((PST))

I think the lure of prepackaged food is that people still feel it
is "balanced" for what their dog needs. He is probably concerned
that it would be too hard to get that same "balance" all on your
own. You could compare the premade stuff to ensure or baby formula
or even the packaged meals from weight watchers. Technically those
contain all the vitamins and minerals people need, but are they as
good as real food without the who knows what in them? Yeah, the
prepackaged stuff seems easier to deal with, but there are some real
serious drawbacks that you could point out to him:

1. The stuff is ground and doesn't do anything for dental health and
does nothing to mentally stimulate the dog.

2. There are all kinds of unnecessary ingredients including
vegetables and supplements that not only take up space but can cause
allergic reactions in some dogs.

3. Most mixes have way too much bone and veggies, not enough meat.
The dog ends up eating more in order to get the same amount of
nutrition they should get from whole parts.

4. They are insanely expensive. Point out how much they cost per
pound and let him know that many people feed their dogs for around $1
per pound.

At least he's coming around, he just might take some time to get all
the way there. My bf was wary about raw feeding at first, but when
he watched our little puppy rock out a chicken quarter it all made
sense to him. Now he's proud to feed the dogs big hunks of food and
watch them rip tear and crunch their food. You could alwas ask him
to tell you why he feels prepackaged is better than whole. Once he
tells you what his hangups are we can work on helping him get over
them. Good luck.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sherri Johnson <edana@...> wrote:

> My worry is that hubby only wants to buy prepackaged stuff. He is
not open to the idea of feeding bones (unless they are knuckle bones)
to the pup.
> Where can I go to show him the difference in prepackaged raw versus
barf raw?

Messages in this topic (4)
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9. Raw feeding 2 weeks
Posted by: "Ashleigh Stevenson" ashleighstevenson30@yahoo.com ashleighstevenson30
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:49 am ((PST))

I have been raw feeding now for 2 weeks......
My two malamutes could not be happier. They are 10 mo and 8mo, I have had problems with them having supposed 'sensitive stomaches' since we got them. My vet had me put them on prescription food which is terrible when you read the ingredients list. Any way , on kibble we had lots of pudding poop to clean up every day. Since raw no pudding poop, it is amazing how excited you can get watching your dog have a solid poop for the first time ! Let's hope the neighbours didn't see us .......

Ashleigh
Nanuq and Siku

---------------------------------
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10.1. Re: worried
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:49 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Betty,
>
> While this is a horrible tragedy, I don't know why you would even
think this
> has anything to do with diet. Appropriate diet does not kill dogs.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>
>

Sandy,

I dont know anything about dogs just dying all of a sudden. I dont
think that the dog died from an appropriate diet, but I just wanted
some of you that have fed raw for so long to tell me whether you have
ever had that experience.
We just recently had a long discussion on our breeds website about
feeding raw and I know all the 'come-backs' for the people who are
against prey model diet. I did a good job of denying all of the myths
that they came up with, but I didnt want someone saying that the dog
died from prey model diet without me having some backup from you
people that have fed raw for so long. They have not said anything
about the raw, but I know that someone will blame the diet. There is
one dingbat that has been feeding raw for a good while and she posted
on the website that she was 'forced' to start feeding raw because of
her dogs skin problems. Her dog is doing great, but she says that she
will go back to kibble when her dog 'outgrows' his allergies. It's
just stupid people like that that will come on and say 'I told you
so.' I want to be able to reassure my friends that a dog doesnt just
up and die from a bone perforating its stomach.
I dont know if they did any kind of test on the dog after she died. I
havent pushed any questions. I just gave them my sympathy and let it
go. The dog has been dead since right after Christmas and I just
found out about it.

Bill,
Thanks for your response about the symptoms of the perforated stomach.
I am pretty sure that they just went out there and she was dead. She
was a young dog and it was totally unexpected. Had the dog shown any
signs of being very sick, I know that they would have taken the dog to
the vet.

I appreciate everyones response. I hope that they will continue to
feed prey model. I know that I will continue, as I dont think it was
the diet that was to blame. If anyone else has any experiences, I
would like to hear them.
Thanks,
Betty

Messages in this topic (29)
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11a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Darjeelingirl" darjeelingirl@comcast.net zoookeeeper
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 8:52 am ((PST))

>>>>Since clearly the dog cannot digest the
>>>>vet unless it's pureed...

tee hee hee - subconscious slip here? wishful thinking.?

a good laugh ;-)

Patsy

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11b. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 9:04 am ((PST))

>>>>Since clearly the dog cannot digest the
>>>>vet unless it's pureed...

tee hee hee - subconscious slip here? wishful thinking.?

a good laugh ;-)

#### that is too funny, although most vets wouldn't puree too easily...

Chia & Ricco

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11c. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:16 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
> tee hee hee - subconscious slip here? wishful thinking.?
>
> a good laugh ;-)
>
> #### that is too funny, although most vets wouldn't puree too
easily...
>
> Chia & Ricco

Lol, I think perhaps just proof that I'm spending way too much time
furiously typing away on my keyboard here.
Glad it gave you guys a giggle, as it did me when you pointed it
out. (Not that I would ever advocate pureed vet as a feed for your
dogs; besides it ain't good for the blender!)

Well I typed up my last reply in the veg debate, including alot of
the info you guys helped provide, Thank you. ;o)
I added the line at the bottom about feeding horses and cows meat and
bone, with a wee wink to show it was not to be taken seriously.....

Well I was accussed of sarcasim (spl?) and vulgarity. So I politely
declinded to take part in the disscussion any further. When someone
is reduced to name calling, it just shows that they have nothing of
intelligence to say and aren't open for an interesting and
enlightening debate. Def not worth the effort!

Thanks Guys.
Evie
xx

Messages in this topic (14)
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12a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "divasdesignerstore" divasdesignerstore@yahoo.com divasdesignerstore
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 10:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susano" <tekritesue@...> wrote:
>
> I won't get into the veggies/no veggies debate, but I'll just agree
> that pugs don't have an "I'm full" sensor. They want to eat all the
> time.

* I think you are right there but I also think that when you are
switching from a kibble diet to a raw appropriate diet it is a shock
to their stomach. Because on some of those kibble bags their
recommended feeding amount is like 2-3 cups for a 20-30 pound dog.
And they get used to that amount. But then when you switch them over
to a more bio available diet that they don't need tons of it to use
it's a big difference. My 30 pound dog only gets about a pound of
food a day. They are also supposed to be on a diet. ;)
But going from 2-3 cups of food to 1/2 pound twice a day or a pound
once a day. Their stomaches have got to be saying "hey where's the
rest?" therefore they don't get that "full" feeling that they are
accustomed too.
And just for the record it was a suggestion by my vet to use the
veggies I don't usually feed them but because my pug has arthritis
issues and he is just so overweight it hurts him to do much of
anything and getting the weight off has been challenging.
We literally had to cut his food in half and I guess I feel bad that
I am the one who put himn in this situation!
Anyone with diet suggestions would be so appreciated????
Hard to exercise him much with his leg but we try a little walk once
a day. Weather permitting of course ;)

>It's tempting
> to give in, but I do as Chris O suggested you do and ignore the
little
> beggers. Yes, they think it's food time whenever I open the fridge,
> but I just tell them to get lost. If they're being really annoying I
> just make them leave the kitchen.

*I guess I am going to have to try a little tough love! Oh but those
faces get me everytime! ;)
>
> Congratulations on switching to raw, BTW!
>
> Susan

*Thanks Susan

Audrey

Messages in this topic (18)
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12b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 10:47 am ((PST))

"divasdesignerstore" <divasdesignerstore@...> wrote:>
>I also think that when you are
> switching from a kibble diet to a raw appropriate diet it is a
shock
> to their stomach.
*****
I think it's more a shock to their expectations, to their brain. And
to the human. I am sympathetic to your situation but I really do
believe you are reading into it more difficulty than it warrants.

My 30 pound dog only gets about a pound of
> food a day. They are also supposed to be on a diet. ;)
*****
Hmm.
A 30# dog in good stead might get two percent of its weight, which
would would be between 9 and 10 ounces. A day. A 30# dog that's a
fuel-injected, hemi-headed hot rod might get three percent of its
weight, or around 14 ounces. Neither scenario justifies 16 ounces of
food a day!

If your pug should oughta weigh 30#, feed him between 9 and 10 ounces
a day. If your pug should oughta weigh less than that, feed him two
percent of what he should oughta be. I guarantee the amount is not
16 ounces!

> it was a suggestion by my vet to use the
> veggies I don't usually feed them but because my pug has arthritis
> issues and he is just so overweight it hurts him to do much of
> anything and getting the weight off has been challenging.
*****
I think if you've been reading here for any length of time you'll
know that there's plenty of empirical evidence that vets don't know
squat about canine nutrition. And less about raw diets. That a vet
recommends veggies only tells me the vet knows they exist, not that
the vet knows who/what to feed them to.

Check the boy's thyroid, feed an appropriate amount of real food,
exercise him in whatever small ways you can, and stick to it. Also,
if this were the RawChat list, I'd suggest you consider his nonfood
eating habits not as a sign of hunger but as symptoms of vaccine
damage. But it's not, so I won't. You could however subscribe to
RawChat for more information.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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12c. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:00 am ((PST))

On Jan 4, 2008, at 1:18 AM, Virginia Snider wrote:
>
> If I don't give him something he will then go for the shoes/paper/
> clothes
> which I have to take off him and give him something chew appropriate.
>
> If I make sure his 30 minute Chewfest need is met then he leaves
> everything
> alone.
>

This could well be totally unrelated to diet, although the tendency
certainly predisposes to overfeeding - by you.

Oral compulsions, including chewing or consuming inappropriate
objects, are one clear indication of chronic disease, usually from
vaccines. This is treatable by homeopathy, and the oral stuff is just
the tip of the iceberg.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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13a. Chicken issues???
Posted by: "dario" nanterossi@yahoo.co.uk nanterossi
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 10:12 am ((PST))

My Staffordshire puppy is 4.5 months today and has a couple of bald spots. one above his
left eye near the ear and one on the left shoulder. They seem stable but not improving. He
is on Advocate. I am considering that maybe its puppy mange...but could I have overdone
it on the chicken when I gave it to him exclusively, in different forms for about 3 weeks at
the beginning of his raw feeding. These patches appeared after that and he has had them
for about 4 weeks.

Question is: How likely is it a chicken allergy ?

Has anyone had this experience ?

Should I wait until he has finished his Advocate course ( end of Jan) before leaving chicken
out of his diet?

MAny thanks
d.

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:00 am ((PST))

"dario" <nanterossi@...> wrote:>
> I am considering that maybe its puppy mange...but could I have
overdone
> it on the chicken when I gave it to him exclusively, in different
forms for about 3 weeks at
> the beginning of his raw feeding.
*****
I doubt this is related to chicken except that a chicken-only diet may
not support his immune system adequately; chicken is not likely to have
caused the bald spots but it certainly won't fix them.

Whether the spots are parasitic or fungoid or bacterial in origin, a
strong immune system is basic in getting the spots gone. Please rework
the menu and consider appropriate medical attention.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
Posted by: "riceaide" riceaide@yahoo.com riceaide
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:19 am ((PST))

Hi,
SHe no longer gets the vitamins or carrots. When I am cooking the
chicken (such as now, when she's had several bad days in a row), I
give potatoes and bone meal powder, too. Both seem to help firm her
stools, and calm the gastric upset.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> You said that you cut out the potato, are you still giving the
> vitamins, carrots and bone meal powder? When you gave the bit of
> beef how big was the bit? I would suggest starting with nothing
> larger than thumbnail size since she has proven to be so sensitive
to
> new things. If that goes down ok keep feeding the same size piece
> with her regular meals for a while and slooooowly increase the piece
> of food. You may want to start with pork instead of beef with your
> next protein. You don't necessarily want her to eat only chicken
> forever but you don't have to rush into variety. I hope that helps
a
> bit.
>
> Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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