[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11795

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: eminemmmfan
1b. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Lyse Garant
1c. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Nathalie Poulin
1d. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Laurie Swanson
1e. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: mz_boomer2
1f. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1g. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Trish Chapman

2a. Re: squid report
From: Bearhair

3a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
From: costrowski75

4a. newbie - when to start chicken necks
From: quiltingtuppy
4b. Re: newbie - when to start chicken necks
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
From: Bearhair

6a. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
From: Anna Labriola

7a. Re: vomitting as well...
From: Bearhair
7b. Re: vomitting as well...
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

8a. Re: And ONE more???
From: carnesbill
8b. Re: And ONE more???
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

9.1. Re: picky eater
From: carnesbill
9.2. Re: picky eater
From: Giselle

10a. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
From: s c
10b. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Some feeding questions
From: carnesbill

12. kidney proportion as organ meat?
From: emmiemileslouie

13a. Re: Keeping it all clean
From: woofwoofgrrl

14a. Re: Just fed a beef testicle...
From: cdhaik

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "eminemmmfan" hd_sheena@hotmail.com eminemmmfan
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right now. I feel that I
have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others feel is best for
the dogs.
1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed them properly. No
guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do put it in writing etc.
2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
3. Feed eggs, turkey necks and liver almost exclusively for about 6
months. Try hard to stick with 10 10 80 theory.
Unless I can find some cheap CHEAP sources of meat, we may be
resorting to one of these options. As it stands now, they get ALOT of
eggs, and we're spending our last $100 on dog food today.. What would
YOU do?
Courtenay

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:03 pm ((PDT))

I think I'd feed them on the cheapest stuff you can gitcher hands on...[listen to moi grinding my dogs' food the other day..] I think they'll be fine, 6 months is long, but I think it would work, though I am BY FAR no expert!!! Man, I wish I could help you with the rest and I will send good thoughts your way.
Lyse & G & N

eminemmmfan <hd_sheena@hotmail.com> wrote:
We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right now. I feel that I
have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others feel is best for
the dogs.
1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed them properly. No
guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do put it in writing etc.
2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
3. Feed eggs, turkey necks and liver almost exclusively for about 6
months. Try hard to stick with 10 10 80 theory.
Unless I can find some cheap CHEAP sources of meat, we may be
resorting to one of these options. As it stands now, they get ALOT of
eggs, and we're spending our last $100 on dog food today.. What would
YOU do?
Courtenay

Lyse

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

I found a local butcher near my house and if I call
him in advance, he gives me free meat scraps/bones.
I can't always identify what it is, but my dog sure
loves it.
Try looking around for an ethnic butcher who hates
wasting.
At least that way your dogs will be fed some great
meat other than just eggs and turkey necks.
I get goat meat, beef, pork. And the bones are great
too because there's big chunks of meat on them.
I try to shop there too (their prices for beef heart
are awesome!) for the other stuff like liver and
heart. I give them my business, they give me their
scraps!

I couldn't imagine what it would be like to have to
re-home your dogs and I seriously hope you don't, but
please try this before you even THINK about going back
to kibble!

Nathalie

--- eminemmmfan <hd_sheena@hotmail.com> wrote:

> We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right
> now. I feel that I
> have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others
> feel is best for
> the dogs.
> 1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed
> them properly. No
> guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do
> put it in writing etc.
> 2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
> 3. Feed eggs, turkey necks and liver almost
> exclusively for about 6
> months. Try hard to stick with 10 10 80 theory.
> Unless I can find some cheap CHEAP sources of meat,
> we may be
> resorting to one of these options. As it stands now,
> they get ALOT of
> eggs, and we're spending our last $100 on dog food
> today.. What would
> YOU do?
> Courtenay
>
>

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:06 pm ((PDT))

Courtenay,

Where are you located? Perhaps someone local might be able to help you
out in a more specific way with sources, donations, etc. Have you ever
done the freecycle or craigs list thing asking for meat?

Do you WANT to re-home your dogs? Although you said "ick" to kibble,
you didn't give any indication of your emotions about the re-homing
option.

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? You mentioned 6 mos. Is
this a temporary situation?

I'm sure we will all try to help you with ideas and resources.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "eminemmmfan" <hd_sheena@...> wrote:
>
> We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right now. I feel that I
> have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others feel is best for
> the dogs.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "mz_boomer2" mz_boomer2@yahoo.com mz_boomer2
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi Courtenay,

I hear you. I have recently been put to trying times myself and
understand. But if you have obviously cared enough to get to feeding
your dogs on RMB, then you obviously must love them very much. Rehoming
them would not garantee that they could get that same love somewhere
else as you pointed out. Nor would your dogs understand. This very same
subject came up a few weeks ago, but check the archives and you will
see some amazing suggestions that I would have never thought of under
such stress myself.

***YOU DO NOT need to switch back to ki%%l#

Use Freecycle.org or Craiglist.org, ask friends and neighbors for
any older freezer bunrned meet that they may not want and such. When
times are trying you'll be surprised at how resourceful you can be.

Good Luck
Pam
Christine & Halo

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "eminemmmfan" <hd_sheena@...> wrote:
>
> > 1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed them properly.
No
> guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do put it in writing
etc.
> 2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
>

What would
> YOU do?
> Courtenay
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Courtenay,
Sorry to hear about your financial troubles. It's hard out there.
I hope that there is a sunny horizon for you in the near future, if so, maybe you could put the word out that you need some temporary help.
Check some of the freecycles, all of the local ones, asking for freezer burnt meat, and any spare meat, that is raw, that anyone can spare due to your circumstances. We have food closets here that also give to the animals for homeless people too. Maybe some of those places could help. (but might have a problem giving meat, but they might have some that was bad, for people if you promised it was for the dogs)
Maybe someone can pitch in and pay for the food while you care for them? Kind of a helping hand situation. I used to help foster kitties, I would pay for the food, if someone else would keep the kitties at thier homes:) That kind of thing. Check around, with animal welfare groups, and with any groups that your dogs might be related too, like if your dogs are Rotts, then Rott rescue groups, and so on. Let them know you don't want to give them up, just need some help keeping them for a little while.
If you were in my area, I would certainly give to the cause, I would love to give you meat that I have in my freezer to help out. I always have meat to give to a needy animal. Freezer always full here. Check with any groups that you may belong too, they may be willing to do what I would do to help you keep your dogs until you can do better for them yourself. If everyone you could think of gave 5 pounds of meat, that might make a difference, you think? I know it is hard, to ask for help, but it's even harder to give up your fur babies. Ask your friends and family for your babies help, they will understand, I do.
I have food here, I just don't have money to offer, If you are in Sacto, CA come on over, I'll give you food.:)
What would I do? Whatever it took to make sure my dogs were comfortable, healthy and happy, and of course safe with a roof over their heads. Do what you have to do, no one will fault you for taking care of your animals, but don't forget to take care of yourself tooo, if you don't, you can't take care of your animals.
Hope you find your way to your deserved blessings
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1g. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Trish Chapman" twotheark@verizon.net twotheark
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Courtenay,
So sorry that you are in this situation. But I definitely would not rehome.
There is no guarantee that they would fair any better with someone else and
it would be traumatic for them to leave. Watch all the sales in the local
stores. I have gotten unenhanced chicken leg quarters for as low as .29/lb
and unenhanced turkey breast for .49/lb. Often times, the stores will lower
the price as the meat gets closer to the "for sale" date. You may not be
able to feed them "perfectly" but hang in there and just do the best you can
until things get better. There is a website that has links to local stores
and their sales flyers
http://dmoz.org/Business/Food_and_Related_Products/Retail/.

Also, did you
check in your area for wholesale distributors and meat packers? If you
look, you might find something that will work with your budget. But, no
matter what, I wouldn't rehome my dogs. Hope you are able to get through
this without too much distress.

Trish

----- Original Message -----
From: "eminemmmfan" <hd_sheena@hotmail.com>

> We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right now. I feel that I
> have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others feel is best for
> the dogs.
> 1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed them properly. No
> guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do put it in writing etc.
> 2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
> 3. Feed eggs, turkey necks and liver almost exclusively for about 6
> months. Try hard to stick with 10 10 80 theory.
> Unless I can find some cheap CHEAP sources of meat, we may be
> resorting to one of these options. As it stands now, they get ALOT of
> eggs, and we're spending our last $100 on dog food today.. What would
> YOU do?
> Courtenay

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: squid report
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

tammy wrote:

>by the way, the guts look like orange oatmeal.

OMIGOD, IT WAS PREGNANT!

Just kidding.

Lora

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Brad and Pam Barnes
<miningcamp_labs@...> wrote:
Somewhere I read to give my dogs digestive
> enzymes and probiotics for two weeks before starting
> the raw diet and for six weeks into it. I ran out a
> couple of days ago, so I thought I'd see how they do.
> We haven't had any diarrhea problems so far. I have
> seven labs ranging from 9 mo to 6 years. Do any of
> you veterans recommend this?
*****
So without even knowing if your dogs needed digestive help, you
started using these supplements? Or did you run into difficulties
that could not be settled otherwise? Were all seven dogs having
initial digestive problems? Where they the same digestive problems?

What do you do now that you've run out and your dogs have digestive
issues? Stay on pro-b and DE for life?

I think these are two very useful supplements if the dog indicates a
need for them. I believe that using a probiotic with/after
antibiotics is sensible. I don't think either ought to be used
without cause. I think the human and the dog ought to ride the
learning curve together without benefit of supplements in order to
find "normal", to see what foods do what how and when.

To assume that a dog will have digestive issues is premature. To
assume that digestive issues are a result of the food is premature;
almost always beginning digestive upset is caused by operator error--
too much food, too much new food, too much fat. And it's also
premature to assume your dogs' success is a result of the
supplements! You really have no idea if you are feeding to your
dogs' maximal advantage or not.

I recommend probiotics and digestive enzymes--not necessarily
together and primarily the DE--if/when the dog after many changes and
tweaks and adjustments is not doing well. I recommend them if the
human really has tried to make things work; or if the dog was having
significant problems on kibble. Otherwise, I don't see their value.

OTOH, they're better than canned pumpkin.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. newbie - when to start chicken necks
Posted by: "quiltingtuppy" mamacass@iprimus.com.au quiltingtuppy
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi All

I have a puppy and two kittens, wanting to start them all raw together. When I start, is it meat
attached to bigger bones (I understand not beef bones because of their density) only?, or will
they manage poultry necks straight up? I know they're finer and softer, chewable bones but
hate the thought of them getting stuck!

I know, get past the scary start and it will be all good but feeling a bit overwhelmed!

Thanks in advance!, you're an amazing group

Stephanie
Australia

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: newbie - when to start chicken necks
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "quiltingtuppy" <mamacass@...>
wrote:
>
> or will
> they manage poultry necks straight up?

If we are talking about a very small puppy, chicken necks would be
ok now and probably chicken wings. Be ready very soon to graduate to
chicken legs and thighs the shortly again to chicken quarters. My
Great Dane puppy was too big for necks,wings,legs and thighs at 12
weeks. He was eating quarters by then. Since I don't know the size
of your pup I can't tell for sure what would be appropriate for him.

Kittens should be ok on necks for most of their lives. My two grown
cats eat wings and legs most of the time.

> I know they're finer and softer, chewable bones but
> hate the thought of them getting stuck!

The kittens should be ok but if your puppy has any size at all, it
might be best to start him on quarters. It just depends on his age
and size.

You'll get through it. Seems these animals survive in spite of what
we do to them. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

yassy wrote:

> One of them was Mutton. . . . ,I got the meat off from bone,and bagged the meat and hold the bone to get meat off a bit for herself before I get toss it. . . .
> She wanted to get into marrow too.So, I grabbed a chopstick and slide it inside the bone and she had what she wanted as well as some meat off the bone. . . .
> A minutes or two later,she vomited white form. I did not get to see closer look if it had bits of meat in it or not but she re-ate it.
> Then,she started shaking head. She should not have problems with mite etc all the sudden so,I wondered if it is something to do with mutton meat.Or,nausea??
> Right now,she is under the desk and laying down no head shaking.
> Anybody has any ideas why she suddenly started shaking head after re-ate the vomiting?
> I am guessing why she vomit was probably too much marrow came out when I poke the bone and too much marrow for her to digest/to get it stay put.

I agree with you that the richness of the marrow is a good guess as to why it
came up. I have no idea what the head shaking might be about. Has she done it
anymore since this afternoon?

Lora

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...>
> Yeah, I know, but I do have a 4 year old daughter, no yard. Guess
I'll remove his sleeping pad and feed him in his crate.

That's what I Do! Much easier to clean. Also, my pup will now go in
his crate on his own at times.

Anna and Khan(14 week old dobe)

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: vomitting as well...
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:06 pm ((PDT))

Lyse wrote:

>My 16 week old has been at this for 5 days, beef and chicken only so far, no bones yet, and the stuff is cut up pretty well for him. He has vomitted twice on this diet, but never before. I want to stick to it. Is it over feeding? It really bothers me to see him puke, makes me feel like I'm making him sick on this diet!

>I have a welsh terrier, weighs about 12 pounds now, adult weight s/b 20 pounds. I started him on beef, actually, and intro'd the chicken last night. He did fine with the beef.
>So do you still think I should switch over to chicken for two weeks? I'm about to go to the store...haha...
>Oh, and vomitting as well... that was sequed after another's email about vomitting, so it meant my dog's doing that too.

There's no magic about chicken. Just stick with a single protein for awhile
to ensure his digestion of raw is stable, mostly assessed by poop patrol. he
should, however, get some bone, so in that case, going with chicken IS a good
choice, since beef bones are limited as to which you can use and will be too
challenging to a young guy. Quit cutting it up for him. If he can chew, he
should be expected to.

If he throws up, he may have eaten too much, eaten too fast, or tried to
swallow too big a piece. Give him the chance to eat it again - do not sweep
it away, he's behaving perfectly normal and you'll just train him to HIDE his
vomit (likely in your bedroom slipper) for later dining.

1. Amount: 2 - 4 % of your dog's ideal adult body weight, depending on his
activity and metabolism, per day. Watch for body changes (ribs, waist, etc.)
over the next few weeks to determine what the right amount is for him.
For those mathematically challenged, 2 - 4% of 20 pounds is about 6 to 13
ounces.

2. Throw away all kibble and canned dog food.

3. Purchase a whole chicken or leg quarters from the grocery store, ensuring
that they are NOT enhanced with a salt solution or broth (retained water is
okay). Cut up the whole chicken into quarters. (Note: chicken is chosen only
for availability and price - it has no special properties).

4. If the chicken quarter is approximately the appropriate weight for a meal,
hand it to the dog, then step back and occupy yourself with something else
instead of staring at the dog - it will lessen the likelihood that he'll try
to swallow the entire thing in one gulp, thinking that you're about to take
it away.

5. If the chicken quarter is not enough for one meal, feed more. If the
chicken quarter is too much for one meal, either cut it up further, feed it
as is until the dog is full (this works if your dog self-regulates its
intake), or feed it until the dog eats an appropriate portion and then trade
the dog for the remaining meat using his favorite treat. If you can.

6. Continue to feed chicken for a week or so, until you are comfortable with
the concept and your dog is comfortable digesting it (you may see some loose
stool initially, but it should clear up before you proceed to the next step.
You will feed the entire chicken - meat, skin, and bones together. I rip the
excess fat off, when present in chunks, but don't get crazed about it. Take
all of the giblets (the stuff inside of the chicken) and freeze them for
later.

7. Slowly introduce another meat into the dog's meals. Pork is another
available and inexpensive option. Replace a portion of the chicken meat with
an equal amount of pork meat, increasing it each day. Continue to monitor
your comfort and his digestion. You can feed any pork as long as it is raw
and not enhanced with a salt solution or broth and not smoked or cured. Pork
chops (omit the bone), hunks of pork cut from a pork roast or pork shoulder,
etc.

8. When your dog is ready to eat full meals of pork, start adding pork bones.
Any bone that has been sawn is potentially sharp, so we prefer to feed the
bones within pork shoulders and other bone-in roasts, or pork ribs. Pork feet
are also tasty but ride the fence between a meal and a treat because there's
not much meat to them.

9. Now pull out those frozen giblets from the first week or two. Common items
include chicken necks, hearts, gizzard and liver. Out of these, liver is the
only item that is considered an "organ" for the purposes of raw feeding. The
rest is considered meat. In general, heart from any animal is quite rich, so
it's best to feed as a portion of a meal until you know how your dog's
digestion will react.

10. Introducing organ to the meal is done as you've already learned - a
little at a time, with monitoring. Some dogs hate the texture of thawed
liver, but will eat it frozen. Over time, your dog should be fed liver as
about 5% of its total intake (per month, per year, per lifetime), with other
organs making up another 5%. Other organs are identified using the "squidgy
rule" - if you touch and it feels "squidgy," it's an organ. They include
(depending on the animal) kidney, spleen, pancreas, reproductive organs,
lung, and brain. Heart, tongue, testicles, tails, feet, and heads are
considered meat.

11. After pork, you're free to pick another meat, just introduce it as you've
learned, a little at a time, with monitoring. Common choices include beef,
bison/buffalo, goat, lamb, mutton, veal, turkey, duck, goose, elk, venison,
fish, and rabbit. There are some additional rules for feeding wild game and
fish - keep reading the messages on the list and you'll pick those up, or ask
when you're ready.

12. Weight-bearing bones of large livestock (beef, bison, buffalo, elk,
venison, and possibly mutton) are stronger than your dog's teeth and will
break them. Depending on your dog, you can either trim the meat off and toss
the bone away, or feed the meat and bone together and remove the bone when
the meat is gone.

Lora

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: vomitting as well...
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

Lyse,
Yes, do the chicken, for a couple of weeks, that way they have to work at it, take their time eating, and digesting the food, and that is the whole chickens, with the innards too, that way you are covered on the organs, but not overdoing it. You can split the chicken up between the dogs, and the organs too, and then they both get what they need, and you don't have to always guess about meat/bones/organs, ratios and stuff, it all comes together eventually. It just doesn't have to happen at each individual meal. In a perfect world that would be great, but we aren't perfect and neither are our dogs.
Get some whole chickens, with everything, cut into halfs and then quarter those and start with that, and give the organs with the meal on the third or fourth day, after they have finished off the whole chicken. No need to cut it up anymore, or skin it. If you get small young chickens, at about 3 pounds each, a quarter of a chicken could be a good meal, for a day. Maybe less, maybe a little more, depending on how much energy they spend. They will let you know if they are still hungry. If a quarter seems like it wasn't enough, let them try a half, and see how much they eat, or if it seems too much, take it away and give the rest the next feeding. See how the guess work goes away, just like the chicken?! You could try game hens if that is easier than cutting up chickens, you wouldn't have to cut those up at all, give the whole bird:) It's all trial and error, and with the dogs, you really can't muck it up too much, because they get to eat either way:)
Happy shopping.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: And ONE more???
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
>
> Isn't she getting raw chicken all over herself?

You are catching on fast. :) No your daughter won't be injured by
chicken slobber. :) I have never known a child or adult get sick from
a raw fed dog. Many feeders here have children and my grandchildren
come over here so I assume it is no problem.

> If I put the piece on the floor, kitchen has no door,
> he'd immediately take it into the living room, so I'm going to
> feed him in his pen, or shut him up in the bathroom.

You have a some choices here. Feeding in crate or bathroom or laundry
room is each a viable choice. Training is another. If you stay right
with the dog and the instant he leaves the kitchen you take the food
away from him and put it back in the kitchen, very quickly he will
learn where he is to eat. If you want him to eat on a table cloth,
the instant he steps off the table cloth with the food, put him back
on it. They learn very quickly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: And ONE more???
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

My two great danes, eat chicken among other things all the time, and lick and kiss on me and my husband, all the time. My husband won't admitt to it, but they do. My husband has a terminal disese, and he has no immune system. We are always careful, but that is the extent of it. He is very clean. I keep the kitchen somewhat clean, not too clean. I feed the dogs, when he does it, he does it with the tongs, or with gloves, not because of his immune system, because it grosses him out:) Our dogs are made to handle the viral load and the germs that come with eating raw meat of all kinds. And when it comes to transmitting stuff back and forth to your daughter, I think, and have been told by doctors, that it doesn't work that way. Dogs don't give us what they have, and we don't give them what we have. Except fleas. And a very rare few things not worth mentioning here. Salmonilla not one of them. Slobbering is not going to be a problem for you, it hasn't been one in our
house, and I'm sure it won't be in yours. And remember, they lick their behinds too, so we aren't worried about getting poopy mouth from that now are we?! Keep the area your dogs eat in clean, crates are good, a towell is sufficiant, the floor is fine, Teaching the dogs a spot to eat in is a wonderful training tool for you and your daughter to share in with the dogs, and learn to do it together. Wash up after, and wash your daughters face once in a while and I'm sure you could even kiss her too! I remember my old room mates daughter who used to pick her nose, and scratch her you-know what, and then would put her hand in her mothers mouth, and I would just gag, now, I just laugh, I eat while I clean up all sorts of stuff, nothing fazes me anymore, germs are out there, and we just need to keep ourselves a little cleaner:)
Goodluck mommy, and enjoy the wonderful world of puppydom/motherhood
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9.1. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Feed her in the kitchen as she's used to, on a big towel.

.... lots of other stuff cut out for brevity ....

I agree 100% with Giselle except I wouldn't do anything to the thing
you are feeding. After 10 or 15 minutes of no action, put it in the
fridge and bring it back out next meal time. Nothing else in the
way of food, snacks, or treats until next meal time and then start
all over with the exact same piece. Some dogs have been known to go
4 or 5 days but usually a day or two is all thats needed. Keep
telling yourself, "No dog will starve itself to death in the
presence of food." Be tough.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

9.2. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:54 pm ((PDT))

Kewl!
Next meal, don't do anything to the chicken. ; )
We may have soft hearts, but we also have the big brains!
Good job!
TC
Giselle

> Giselle,
> I am doing precisely what you advised, right at this minute, and
Ruby has just eaten one piece of chicken. You're right, she seems to
be the boss around here! (for now!) :0)
> Becky

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
Posted by: "s c" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

One reason I finally took the plunge to feeding raw was that after trying all sorts of "very good" kibble my dogs were still not at their peak of health. Also, my sister's dogs, all five of them, went into acute kidney distress after I recommended a "very good" kibble diet to her. Two had to be put down. Forget China you don't want anything that comes from there. Sorry if I sound bitter.

Silvina

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:59 pm ((PDT))

Not bitter, Silvina! Just cautious.
After all, melamine was found in some farm fish food in this country!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> One reason I finally took the plunge to feeding raw was that after
trying all sorts of "very good" kibble my dogs were still not at their
peak of health. Also, my sister's dogs, all five of them, went into
acute kidney distress after I recommended a "very good" kibble diet to
her. Two had to be put down. Forget China you don't want anything that
comes from there. Sorry if I sound bitter.
>
> Silvina

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Some feeding questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:13 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, jeff wissler <wisslewj@...> wrote:
>
> First off, beef spleen?

I have Great Danes but what I aay about them will apply to your
little ones as well. Feed the spleen.

> Are there any precautions to
> giving these?

No

> Are there any hormones they can get too
> much of there or is it more like liver?

I don't think so but remember, organs should be fed in very small
amounts.

> Feed what
> they can handle every so often?

Exactly

> And the same question goes for beef kidneys. Just
> feed with no worries?

Remembering to feed in small amounts, yes. Don't make a meal out of
organs.

> Brains, guts, skin, noses, eyes (eeew) etc.
> and the glands.

Feed them.

> First, any precautions to wild deer or rabbit?

There is some disagreement. Some say freeze for a few weeks to a
month, others like myself don't worry about it. My dogs catch wild
prey pretty regularly and eat it on the spot.

> Second, how do I regulate what they can get and what
> they cant?

You will learn with experience. Your dogs will tell you what they
can't handle. Remember to feed organs in moderation and I doubt
there will be any problems.

> How much thyroid gland or adrenal for
> example?

A little bit. Assume your dogs could eat the whole animal in one
sitting ... what percentage of the diet would those glands be? Feed
them in the same porportion and you will be safe.

> Are there any inedible parts?

Probably intestines and bladder.

> I know these things are healthy and wild dogs self
> regulate but honestly mine would eat plastic if it was
> covered in blood!

So would wild dogs. :)

> Also chi's would never down a deer
> and hence the glands are probably too large for any
> one sitting. (not to mention toxic in excess.)

Absolutely ... again, imagine them eating the whole carcass and try
to judge how much of the diet would be each of those organs and
porportion accordingly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. kidney proportion as organ meat?
Posted by: "emmiemileslouie" lklora@sbcglobal.net emmiemileslouie
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Finally, after a long hunt, I found some kidney as the only other organ
meat aside from liver available in my area. My question is do I have
to limit the kidney ratio to 5% or less as with liver? Also, I had a
choice of both lamb and pork kidney. Is one better than the other?

Thanks,
Linda

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

Marion,
If you are not already, I would use a clean dish cloth each time you
wash dishes - or switch to a dish brush that is easy to rinse in hot
water and *dries out completely* between dish washing sessions. Dish
cloths are notorious bacteria farms.

http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Dishcloth.html
http://web.extension.uiuc.edu/mclean/kitchen/020828.html
http://www.agriculture.technomuses.ca/english/FoodForHealth/WhoKeepsYourFoodSafe/Wash_Away_the_Bacteria.html

Christine

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: Just fed a beef testicle...
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rach9876" <rach9876@...> wrote:
i just fed a raw beef testicle. I found
> these at an Asian Market. It was about 10 oz. Is this an organ that
is
> very rich, like liver? What have your experiences been with feeding
> testicles. I'm hoping it doesnt give him an upset tummy or anything.
> Thanks.

I feed these too. They seem to be a bit fatty and the first time i fed
them the dogs had the squirts once or twice so now i feed the whole
er ... hmmm what to call it ... thing ... haha... divided between my
three dogs with rest of a meaty meal. Can't stand the smell of them
myself but the dogs enjoy them and they are easily available and
considered a huge delicacy in soup here.

Caren y Amber y Rain

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11794

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bone shards - questions
From: Courtney
1b. Re: Bone shards - questions
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
From: Eve
2b. Re: Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
From: Giselle
2c. Re: Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
From: Brad and Pam Barnes
3b. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
From: Lyse Garant
4c. Re: And ONE more???
From: Lyse Garant
4d. Re: And ONE more???
From: Giselle
4e. Some feeding questions
From: jeff wissler

5a. Re: vomitting as well...
From: Lyse Garant

6a. Re: Keeping it all clean
From: Sandee Lee
6b. Re: Keeping it all clean
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

7a. Just fed a beef testicle...
From: rach9876
7b. Re: Just fed a beef testicle...
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
7c. Re: Just fed a beef testicle...
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

8a. Re: New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia
From: Yuliya Brown

9a. picky eater
From: Becky Brooks (Marsh)
9b. Re: picky eater
From: Sandee Lee
9c. Re: picky eater
From: Giselle
9d. Re: picky eater
From: becky brooks
9e. Re: picky eater
From: becky brooks

10a. Re: Black Lab in serious need of help
From: Yuliya Brown

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Bone shards - questions
Posted by: "Courtney" courtneyredhead@yahoo.com courtneyredhead
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:16 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR POSTS OR RISK LOSING THEM.***

I'm finding these now and again. Not poking through stools like a Safari tracker... even I
have my limits! LOL I notice the shards as they are either sticking out or can be found near
the 'pile'.

They don't seem to mind these, I do. I'm wondering if they are causing internal distress as
they travel through their systems.

I can certainly 'beef up' on what I'm giving them. Most of the items are pretty meaty. The
ribs are not, but they seem to love to chew on them!

I'll try giving more meat and see what happens. The majority of their meals are very meaty.

Thanks so much for your suggestions!
Courtney & pups

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Bone shards - questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

"Courtney" <courtneyredhead@...> wrote:
> They don't seem to mind these, I do. I'm wondering if they are
causing internal distress as
> they travel through their systems.
*****
I think by now you'd have recognized indications of distress.

I can certainly 'beef up' on what I'm giving them. Most of the items
are pretty meaty. The
> ribs are not, but they seem to love to chew on them!
*****
Beef ribs ARE good for chewing. I'm not necessarily singling beef
ribs out. However, I've yet to meet a "very meaty" pork neck bone
and unless you are feeding all parts of a chicken you are probably
relying on less meaty chicken parts. If you feed wings or backs or
necks without either a. larger whacks of chicken or b. added meat,
you are feeding pretty darn bony parts.

So I'm sticking with my theory.
Yes add meat, at least to see if it makes a difference.

Let us know how it turns out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
Posted by: "Eve" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:17 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE SIGN AND TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks Jeni!

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Eve!

> Here's my next round of questions:
>
> 1. Every so often he gets a funny smell from his
> mouth. Don't know if it's coming from his stomach or
> from his teeth. (which are yellow, a couple bordering
> brown--after just getting them cleaned at the vet a
> month ago mind you). I am worried this might be a
> bigger problem. How can I get him to start chomping on
> and consuming bones so maybe he can "brush" his teeth
> and hopefully fix this stinky problem? I seriously can
> smell it from across the room--this is worrying me.

**** This can be from the still tartary teeth, or from his stomach. It
takes awhile for a dog's digestive system to adjust to optimum from
kibble. Give it some time. He will get 'brushing' action from ripping
and shearing chunks of meat, too. ****
>
> 2. What are some good second options to chicken for
> going into next week? I am not into giving whole
> animals with fur and all attached. I want to keep this
> fairly bearable for myself as well.

**** You could stay with chicken for awhile longer. Its not written in
stone that you have to add another protein right away. Chicken has the
most edible bones of the readily available protein sources. You could
get some Game hens if he still isn't eating bone. These are chickens,
just younger, with softer bones. Are you adding in the heart and
gizzards, with a tiny bit of liver to each meal? After that; turkey,
pork, beef, fish, rabbit.... ****
>
> 3. Is an organ (if given in a larger amount)
> considered one full meal?

**** I don't recommend that you feed a meal of just organ right now.
Add bits of organ to 'regular' meals. Too much 'squidgy' organ can
cause runny poops. ****
>
> 4. It's hard to measure if he ate the correct
> percentage from what's left on the chicken. I let him
> just eat the chicken until he walked away from it as
> it seemed like he was full. Is this ok?
>
**** After you've been feeding him for a few weeks, you should be able
to tell better if he's getting enough or too much. Get used to feeling
his ribs, backbone and hip bones every few days. If they get too bony,
feed him more. If they start to develop a pad of flesh between them
and your fingers, cut back a little. ****

> 5. Would ground bone suffice sometimes for his fill of
> bone? How do I go about serving this and where would I
> find it? I think someone answered this already but
> can't find it but, what are a few good easy, edible
> bones for him? How will he know he needs to eat the
> bone? For some reason I don't see him wanting to rip
> into a bone

**** Remember, you only need about 10% bone in his overall diet, and
he doesn't have to get some every day. You can not worry 'bout it
until he gets used to eating raw and starts to crunch the bones. You
might cut into the gristle at the ends of the bones and let it hang
off partially, like 'ribboning' the meat. Ground bone can form
together in a lump like cement - not a good idea to feed this. ****
>
> 6. I haven't seen much on this list about water. I've
> read that it's better to give them filtered or even
> bottled water vs. regular tap because of chemicals,
> etc. Any feedback?

**** I give Bea the water I drink, from my well. If its good enough
for you, its good enough for your dog, I think. Most raw fed dogs
don't consume as much water on raw as they did on kibble. Raw has a
higher natural water content. Kibble is very dry, and salty, so dogs
have an abnormal thirst for water so they can digest it. ****
>
> 7. Can I sometimes feed small chunks of meat as long
> as he's chewing it? Or is it almost certain that he
> will just swallow them?

**** Since he's a gulper, you want to keep the meat large and
difficult to scarf down. ****
>
> 8. I am still going to give him fish oil. I used to
> open it up and mix it into his food. Now that won't be
> so easy. How do I give it to him? The ones I have are
> called Skin Formula 3V Caps, which contains fish oil
> and omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Is this what
> I should be giving? Suggestions?

**** Fish oil is fine. Make sure it is Salmon or Fish Body oil. No
need for vitamin E or soy, or any other additives. Let him eat it as a
treat from your hand, if he will, or drip it on his meat or bone. ****
>
> Again, apologies for the lengthy email. Just want to
> make it out of the first week without doing too much
> damage! :)

**** NP, glad to help.
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thanks again,
> Eve, NY

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eve <loulou_bean@...> wrote:
>
> 1. How can I get him to start chomping on
> and consuming bones so maybe he can "brush" his teeth
> and hopefully fix this stinky problem?

Feed him boney pieces and make sure he finishes them before you
offer him more meat. He will probably fill up on meat only if he
has enough of that to make a meal. Feed him a piece of chicken and
if he doesn't finish it, put it up until next meal then re-feed it.
That way he will get bone as well as meat.

> 2. What are some good second options to chicken for
> going into next week?

I suggest turkey, then pork the next later then beef then fish but
it's really not critical. I would wait 3 or 4 weeks on beef because
of its richness but many feed it earlier with no problem. Others
have problems. I wouldn't worry about a 2nd meat until he is eating
all the chicken parts including bones.

> 3. Is an organ (if given in a larger amount)
> considered one full meal?

You don't want to feed that much organ. Just a little glob
occasionally as part of a meal is sufficient.

> 4. It's hard to measure if he ate the correct
> percentage from what's left on the chicken.

Put the remainder back in the fridge and feed THAT PART again next
meal. This will assure that the entire chicken was eaten over time.

> 5. Would ground bone suffice sometimes for his fill of
> bone?

NO, ground bone will not help his dental problem. There is also
controversy about how much good ground bone does nutrionwise also.
I would avoid it.

> what are a few good easy, edible
> bones for him?

All chicken bones

> How will he know he needs to eat the
> bone?

He's a dog. Dogs know those things. Usually the problem is
preventing them from eating too much bone. :)

> For some reason I don't see him wanting to rip
> into a bone

It's too easy for him to rip into the soft meat you are giving him.
As long as you give him more than enough meat, he may never try to
consume bone.

> 6. I haven't seen much on this list about water. I've
> read that it's better to give them filtered or even
> bottled water vs. regular tap bacause of chemicals,
> etc. Any feedback?

Tap water is fine. A lot of bottled water is tap water anyway.
Don't worry about it.

> 7. Can I sometimes feed small chunks of meet as long
> as he's chewing it?

NO, he could swallow it whole and he may not eat bones as long as
you keep handing him meat chunks.

> Or is it almost certain that he
> will just swallow them?

Yes that will happen. I feed my 2 Great Danes sometimes a chunk of
beef heart that is the size of my fist and they swallow that whole.

> 8. I am still going to give him fish oil.

Don't worry about fish oil for a while. In a couple of months you
will have your other problems worked out and then you can figure out
the fish oil question.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
Posted by: "Brad and Pam Barnes" miningcamp_labs@yahoo.com miningcamp_labs
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi Leanne,
I'm brand new to raw feeding. . . only five days into
it. Somewhere I read to give my dogs digestive
enzymes and probiotics for two weeks before starting
the raw diet and for six weeks into it. I ran out a
couple of days ago, so I thought I'd see how they do.
We haven't had any diarrhea problems so far. I have
seven labs ranging from 9 mo to 6 years. Do any of
you veterans recommend this?
Pam and her Mining Camp Labs

____________________________________________________________________________________
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Pam,

Digestive enzymes and probiotics are generally are not necessary. Save the
supplements for when they are needed!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Brad and Pam Barnes" <miningcamp_labs@yahoo.com>
> I'm brand new to raw feeding. . . only five days into
> it. Somewhere I read to give my dogs digestive
> enzymes and probiotics for two weeks before starting
> the raw diet and for six weeks into it. I ran out a
> couple of days ago, so I thought I'd see how they do.
> We haven't had any diarrhea problems so far. I have
> seven labs ranging from 9 mo to 6 years. Do any of
> you veterans recommend this?

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...>
wrote:
>
> The idea of putting a chicken leg on the floor...and I don't
> have a yard yet. Also the idea of having an entire bone and
> meat gulped down at once doesn't work for me yet.

He is a dog. Thats the way things work for a dog. Get used to him
eating animal parts on the floor. If it makes you feel better limit
him to the kitchen and put down a plastic table cloth for him to eat
on.

> Am I wrong for chopping his beef and chicken [so far
> skinless and boneless breast on the chicken and cheap steaks
> for the beef] and putting it in a bowl?

Yes. He has teeth. Let him use them. Give him some bones. They
are a necessary part of the diet.

> Also, I will be adding chicken bone-age to the mix today
> if possible. I think I need a scale so I can more precisely
> weigh the meat so I don't accidently over feed which might
> be causing the puking.

Don't worry so much about the weight of the food. If you think he
is puking because you are feeding too much, feed less and see what
happens. I already told you in another post why I think he is
puking.

> No, the chicken was not enhanced as far as I know, it
> was skinless/boneless breasts.

I wouldn't care if it was. I havn't been convinced that a little
saline solution will have an adverse effect on a dog. I strongly
some people say "enhanced chicken" because they don't know what else
the problem might be.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

Yeah, I know, but I do have a 4 year old daughter, no yard. Guess I'll remove his sleeping pad and feed him in his crate.
My daughter's already had digestive problems since we got Guinness. I have to consider her.

John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Yes, he should be doing the chopping with his own teeth, that is best for him, and you should give him a big enough piece that he has to chew it, so if needed give him half the chicken, and let him go. Then take some away when you think he has had his fill. And it isn't supposed to work for you silly, it's supposed to work for the dog:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyse

---------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: And ONE more???
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

Ok Ok, so whole pieces, I get it. One last question. He, immediately after eating, might lick my daughter, chew her toys, or whatever, they are all over each other. Isn't she getting raw chicken all over herself?
Don't laugh at me, she's my one and only. I care more for her than anything/anyone.
If I put the piece on the floor, kitchen has no door, he'd immediately take it into the living room, so I'm going to feed him in his pen, or shut him up in the bathroom.
Lyse & Guinness [and Natalie!!]

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...>
wrote:
>
> The idea of putting a chicken leg on the floor...and I don't
> have a yard yet. Also the idea of having an entire bone and
> meat gulped down at once doesn't work for me yet.

He is a dog. Thats the way things work for a dog. Get used to him
eating animal parts on the floor. If it makes you feel better limit
him to the kitchen and put down a plastic table cloth for him to eat
on.

> Am I wrong for chopping his beef and chicken [so far
> skinless and boneless breast on the chicken and cheap steaks
> for the beef] and putting it in a bowl?

Yes. He has teeth. Let him use them. Give him some bones. They
are a necessary part of the diet.

> Also, I will be adding chicken bone-age to the mix today
> if possible. I think I need a scale so I can more precisely
> weigh the meat so I don't accidently over feed which might
> be causing the puking.

Don't worry so much about the weight of the food. If you think he
is puking because you are feeding too much, feed less and see what
happens. I already told you in another post why I think he is
puking.

> No, the chicken was not enhanced as far as I know, it
> was skinless/boneless breasts.

I wouldn't care if it was. I havn't been convinced that a little
saline solution will have an adverse effect on a dog. I strongly
some people say "enhanced chicken" because they don't know what else
the problem might be.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Lyse

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: And ONE more???
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lyse!
Baby gates are very useful, for dogs and kids.
http://www.google.com/products?q=dog+baby+gates&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=6pQ&um=1&sa=X&oi=froogle&ct=title
http://tinyurl.com/3boxnt
I have a one and only, too. And I was very protective, believe me.
He's thirty now, but used to shut himself in crates with the dogs at
shows, complain to me about the dogs as if they were sibs, and share
out dog treats including himself when he got hungry and food wasn't
forthcoming fast enough to suit him. He lived to grow up to be a
pretty normal husband and father. He does have a strong affinity for
wolves, tho' ; )
TC
Giselle

<snip>
> Don't laugh at me, she's my one and only. I care more for her than
anything/anyone.
> If I put the piece on the floor, kitchen has no door, he'd
immediately take it into the living room, so I'm going to feed him in
his pen, or shut him up in the bathroom.
> Lyse & Guinness [and Natalie!!]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4e. Some feeding questions
Posted by: "jeff wissler" wisslewj@yahoo.com wisslewj
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

Hey all,

I will soon come into quite a bounty of free meat as
well as organs etc and had a few questions about
these.

First off, beef spleen? Are there any precautions to
giving these? Are there any hormones they can get too
much of there or is it more like liver? Feed what
they can handle every so often?

And the same question goes for beef kidneys. Just
feed with no worries?

Next, wild deer and rabbit. Here we are talking whole
animals. (cut up as these are chihuahuas I am
feeding!) Brains, guts, skin, noses, eyes (eeew) etc.
and the glands.

First, any precautions to wild deer or rabbit?
Second, how do I regulate what they can get and what
they cant? How much thyroid gland or adrenal for
example? My buddy is butchering them himself so I can
have whatever I want. Are there any inedible parts?

I know these things are healthy and wild dogs self
regulate but honestly mine would eat plastic if it was
covered in blood! Also chi's would never down a deer
and hence the glands are probably too large for any
one sitting. (not to mention toxic in excess.)

Its rare that I have access to so much wild deer meat
and parts. Since the Govt, is so hell bent on
regulating away the healthy organs and such, I barely
get them. I get the liver, heart and tongue and thats
it as thats all I CAN get. But now I have a bounty
and need to know how to feed it lol.

Any help is appreciated.

God Bless
jeff

____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: vomitting as well...
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:02 pm ((PDT))

I have a welsh terrier, weighs about 12 pounds now, adult weight s/b 20 pounds. I started him on beef, actually, and intro'd the chicken last night. He did fine with the beef.
So do you still think I should switch over to chicken for two weeks? I'm about to go to the store...haha...
Oh, and vomitting as well... that was sequed after another's email about vomitting, so it meant my dog's doing that too.

John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Lyse,
Vomitting as well as what else?
And why are you doing beef and Chicken?
When you start out with raw, you should always stick to one source of meat, so you can pinpoint a problem, if one should occur.
You should back off on one meat, I would suggest sticking with just chicken, and doing the whole chicken, not just the meat. Your dog needs the bones too. And the organs. Use the whole chicken. Read the archives here, do some research. But stay on chicken for at least a couple of weeks before you try a different meat source.
What kind of dog do you have, how big is it, and what exactly are you feeding it and how much are you feeding?
And vomiting only two times, is not really bad, maybe just getting used to raw. Does it eat it back up again afterwards? If so, that is ok, and perfectly normal, and no need to worry.
Let us know some more info, and keep us posted, this place is a wealth of information.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyse

---------------------------------
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:19 pm ((PDT))

Tamatha,

You definitely don't want to feed on treated lawn...in fact I would keep a
young child and dog off treated lawn completely.

I'm sure you could find a tray but don't count on him leaving the food on it
either. I use pie plates to transfer my dogs meals from the kitchen to
their eating spots but the first thing they do is take the food out, lick
the bowl, then proceed to eat! :) Where ever you decide to feed,
vinegar/water is all that is necessary for cleanup.

I do feed outsize quite often, but inside I feed on towels or blankets and
throw them in the wash once in a while!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com>

> Outdoor feeding would do best but in inclement weather it would be a pain,
esp with
> him coming back into the house all wet. Also, I have thought of the grass
> instead of the deck, but sometimes we have it treated by the lawn care
company so
> that probably isn't the best idea either. So I am leaning to indoors but
> below is my delimma too.
>
> I was also wondering about cleanliness in the RAW feedings, esp since we
also
> have a 5 yr old child.
>
> Our floors are wood though so I am limited to vinegar and water or our
> Shaklee products.
>
> I am thinking he may not like the bowl idea at all--I wonder if they make
a
> stainless steel feeding tray. That would be cool! LOL!

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:30 pm ((PDT))

Sounds great! Sandee :) I have some great ideas from everyone--most are
the same some are different so I like that--I have options and can switch it up
too. :)

Thanks again!

Tamatha

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Just fed a beef testicle...
Posted by: "rach9876" rach9876@yahoo.com rach9876
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

And to think a year ago i wouldn't even handle raw chicken. What we do
for our dogs! Anyway, yes, i just fed a raw beef testicle. I found
these at an Asian Market. It was about 10 oz. Is this an organ that is
very rich, like liver? What have your experiences been with feeding
testicles. I'm hoping it doesnt give him an upset tummy or anything.
Thanks.

Rachel(who is kind of grossed out right now) and Tyler (who is very
happy his mom is adventurous with his food!)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Just fed a beef testicle...
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:56 pm ((PDT))

YUMMY. . ugh! LOL! Taylor's Tasty Testicle Treats

ROFLOL!

Tamatha ;)



In a message dated 7/11/2007 7:29:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rach9876@yahoo.com writes:

And to think a year ago i wouldn't even handle raw chicken. What we do
for our dogs! Anyway, yes, i just fed a raw beef testicle. I found
these at an Asian Market. It was about 10 oz. Is this an organ that is
very rich, like liver? What have your experiences been with feeding
testicles. I'm hoping it doesnt give him an upset tummy or anything.
Thanks.

Rachel(who is kind of grossed out right now) and Tyler (who is very
happy his mom is adventurous with his food!)

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: Just fed a beef testicle...
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:56 pm ((PDT))

ops! mesntt Tyler's Tasty Testicle Treats-- not Taylors LOL! You have me
all discombobulated ;) Tamatha

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia
Posted by: "Yuliya Brown" yuliya_brown@yahoo.com yuliya_brown
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

Russian is not my
> first language
> and I have a hard time to explain to the butcher
> what I want ï?Š
>
> Thank you again and hoping for your advices
>
> Gabriella and Bridge (that’s the dog ï?Š>

Gabriella,
I am from Russia, well formally, I am no longer there
but let me know if you have any questions. I think you
got already lots of good advices.
Yuliya

____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. picky eater
Posted by: "Becky Brooks (Marsh)" kidcreations1@yahoo.com kidcreations1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

HI,
This is our third day of rawfeeding and our 11 mo Great Dane will not
eat the raw meat! We've tried chicken quarters and pork roast, cold,
in big chunks, cut up into bite sized pieces, searing it, seasoning it
with garlic and parmesan, cutting it to ribbons, putting it on the
deck and leaving her alone, handfeeding her... she just turns her head
away. My husband is getting concerned - any more ideas out there we
could try??? These ideas worked for our other three dogs and they are
loving their new diet, but Ruby refuses to eat. One big change is
that she used to eat with us in the kitchen and now she is outside in
the yard - we think she's used to a specific routine and doesn't like
the change. I will try letting her eat in the kitchen tomorrow, but
I'm certainly open for any other ideas anyone might have because that
could make a huge mess! Thanks,
Becky

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:48 pm ((PDT))

Hi Becky,

I would definitely bring her back into her comfort zone in the kitchen while
making the switch. Just put a towel or blanket down...or let her make a
mess and get out your vinegar! :)

Then decide what the meal is going to be, put it down and if she doesn't
eat, pick it up, put away and offer at the next meal. No hovering, begging
her, fussing over her, offering a smorgasbord! LOL

Raw is really bland. When I switched my newly adopted 6-year-old Dane, I
warmed the food and sliced into it in a few places, then sprinkled with
Parmesan (even smashing some down into the slices). It worked! It only
took a couple of meals and now he about runs me over at feeding time! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Becky Brooks (Marsh)" <kidcreations1@yahoo.com>
This is our third day of rawfeeding and our 11 mo Great Dane will not
eat the raw meat! We've tried chicken quarters and pork roast, cold,
in big chunks, cut up into bite sized pieces, searing it, seasoning it
with garlic and parmesan, cutting it to ribbons, putting it on the
deck and leaving her alone, handfeeding her... she just turns her head
away. My husband is getting concerned - any more ideas out there we
could try??? These ideas worked for our other three dogs and they are
loving their new diet, but Ruby refuses to eat. One big change is
that she used to eat with us in the kitchen and now she is outside in
the yard - we think she's used to a specific routine and doesn't like
the change. I will try letting her eat in the kitchen tomorrow, but
I'm certainly open for any other ideas anyone might have because that
could make a huge mess! Thanks,
Becky

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/894 - Release Date: 7/10/2007
5:44 PM

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Becky!
You tried all that already, and you're only 3 days into raw feeding?
Tell me, are you sure her name isn't Princess Ruby? ; )

Feed her in the kitchen as she's used to, on a big towel.
Do this while the other dogs are eating, one of you should feed her,
the other should watch the other dogs eat.
Do *one* thing to the food, then put it down and walk away.
Do not cut up the meat.
Breathe.
Stay several feet away from her.
Sit down in a chair and turn partially away.
Don't stare at her directly.
Don't coax or talk to her.
Do not pick up the food for any reason until after you are sure she's
finished eating.
Or not.
Wait about 15 minutes for her to decide to eat.
Or not.
Take it up and put it in the fridge.
No treats, other food, sharing your food, or chewies!
Do one other thing to the food.
Offer the food again the next meal.

She will eat, but you have to have the patience to wait for her to
figure it out. Otherwise, she's training you.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> HI,
> This is our third day of raw feeding and our 11 mo Great Dane will not
> eat the raw meat! One big change is
> that she used to eat with us in the kitchen and now she is outside in
> the yard - we think she's used to a specific routine and doesn't like
> the change. I will try letting her eat in the kitchen tomorrow, but
> I'm certainly open for any other ideas anyone might have because that
> could make a huge mess! Thanks,
> Becky
>

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________

9d. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "becky brooks" kidcreations1@yahoo.com kidcreations1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

Sandee,
Thanks for the encouragement - I will try a meal in the kitchen right now and see how it goes!
Becky

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote: Hi Becky,

I would definitely bring her back into her comfort zone in the kitchen while
making the switch. Just put a towel or blanket down...or let her make a
mess and get out your vinegar! :)

Then decide what the meal is going to be, put it down and if she doesn't
eat, pick it up, put away and offer at the next meal. No hovering, begging
her, fussing over her, offering a smorgasbord! LOL

Raw is really bland. When I switched my newly adopted 6-year-old Dane, I
warmed the food and sliced into it in a few places, then sprinkled with
Parmesan (even smashing some down into the slices). It worked! It only
took a couple of meals and now he about runs me over at feeding time! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Becky Brooks (Marsh)" <kidcreations1@yahoo.com>
This is our third day of rawfeeding and our 11 mo Great Dane will not
eat the raw meat! We've tried chicken quarters and pork roast, cold,
in big chunks, cut up into bite sized pieces, searing it, seasoning it
with garlic and parmesan, cutting it to ribbons, putting it on the
deck and leaving her alone, handfeeding her... she just turns her head
away. My husband is getting concerned - any more ideas out there we
could try??? These ideas worked for our other three dogs and they are
loving their new diet, but Ruby refuses to eat. One big change is
that she used to eat with us in the kitchen and now she is outside in
the yard - we think she's used to a specific routine and doesn't like
the change. I will try letting her eat in the kitchen tomorrow, but
I'm certainly open for any other ideas anyone might have because that
could make a huge mess! Thanks,
Becky

----------------------------------------------------------
----

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/894 - Release Date: 7/10/2007
5:44 PM

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________

9e. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "becky brooks" kidcreations1@yahoo.com kidcreations1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:37 pm ((PDT))

Giselle,
I am doing precisely what you advised, right at this minute, and Ruby has just eaten one piece of chicken. You're right, she seems to be the boss around here! (for now!) :0)
Becky

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, Becky!
You tried all that already, and you're only 3 days into raw feeding?
Tell me, are you sure her name isn't Princess Ruby? ; )

Feed her in the kitchen as she's used to, on a big towel.
Do this while the other dogs are eating, one of you should feed her,
the other should watch the other dogs eat.
Do *one* thing to the food, then put it down and walk away.
Do not cut up the meat.
Breathe.
Stay several feet away from her.
Sit down in a chair and turn partially away.
Don't stare at her directly.
Don't coax or talk to her.
Do not pick up the food for any reason until after you are sure she's
finished eating.
Or not.
Wait about 15 minutes for her to decide to eat.
Or not.
Take it up and put it in the fridge.
No treats, other food, sharing your food, or chewies!
Do one other thing to the food.
Offer the food again the next meal.

She will eat, but you have to have the patience to wait for her to
figure it out. Otherwise, she's training you.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> HI,
> This is our third day of raw feeding and our 11 mo Great Dane will not
> eat the raw meat! One big change is
> that she used to eat with us in the kitchen and now she is outside in
> the yard - we think she's used to a specific routine and doesn't like
> the change. I will try letting her eat in the kitchen tomorrow, but
> I'm certainly open for any other ideas anyone might have because that
> could make a huge mess! Thanks,
> Becky
>

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Black Lab in serious need of help
Posted by: "Yuliya Brown" yuliya_brown@yahoo.com yuliya_brown
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

> I have a friend who has a 3 year old black lab
> called Clyde. His vet
> has diognosed his condition as being allergic to
> house dust mites.
Hi, this seems very odd to me, just because I never
heard of such thing. Was any tests ran on the dog to
confirm the diagnosis? What I heard of,however, are
the mites that live in in dogs hair follicals that
causes hair to fall out and makes the dog completely
misirable. Try doing search on it and see if it
looks like that dogs problem.

>
> Clyde has over the last 10 months developed very
> severe itchy skin
> which causes the dog to pull out its own fur from
> its legs and feet.
I personally concern with ammount of steroids that was
put into that poor dog. and in this situation I would
try pretty much anything. so I'd say give the raw diet
a shot. Also I heard that many people sware by using
homeopathy to treat allergies, I don't have any
experience with this, but that might be another
option. Also, what does vet says causes reaction from
dust mites? I thought it's what ever waste they
produce, and there are many suggestions for how people
can minimize exposion to it. Matress covers, air
filters etc. you can look at any allergy website for
ideas.

Yuliya

____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11793

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Keeping it all clean
From: carlarae3
1b. Re: Keeping it all clean
From: mz_boomer2
1c. Re: Keeping it all clean
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
1d. Cutting up chicken
From: Marion
1e. Re: Keeping it all clean
From: aliinfl
1f. Re: Cutting up chicken
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1g. Re: Cutting up chicken
From: carnesbill

2.1. Re: allergies
From: hjbartling

3a. Re: How much bones?
From: Andrea

4. Re: Not fullly aware of all the plunge entails...
From: Lori Poirier

5. After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong with h
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Laura Atkinson

7a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
From: Laura Atkinson

8. Re: Panosteitis/pano
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. vomitting as well...
From: Lyse Garant
9b. Re: vomitting as well...
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
9c. Re: vomitting as well...
From: Yasuko herron
9d. Re: vomitting as well...
From: carnesbill

10a. Fly Issues
From: rosey031801
10b. Re: Fly Issues
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

11a. Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
From: Eve
11b. Re: Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

12a. Re: squid report
From: Yasuko herron

13a. one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
From: Lyse Garant
13b. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "carlarae3" carladc2b@charter.net carlarae3
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:02 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Marion" <mbldesigns@...> wrote:
>
>Sheets I think would allow the chicken juices to go through and
contaminate the floor.
My dogs eat pretty fast, so the chicken doesn't spend much time on the
sheet.

>The tablecloths should be alright sitting for 12 hours or so till the
next feeding, right?
I only wash the sheet 1x a week if I remember.

> Glass cutting board? OK, that sounds like it might come cleaner.
I hope you aren't using wood or a poly-plastic cutting board now,
those are no-no's for chicken. I'm not much of an antibacterial soap
user, I just use HOT water and dish soap to clean.

> Scissors to cut chicken? Which type?
Mine are Farberware and I have a pair of Fiskers. I've used them for
a year and never need sharpening. You can also pop alot of the
chicken joints with your hands.

HTH Carla

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "mz_boomer2" mz_boomer2@yahoo.com mz_boomer2
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:03 pm ((PDT))

Okay, here is something that I can contribute to.. since it is a
method I have used for ALL household sanitizing.....

**Moderators: I will keep this short and not stray from too far from
our primary focus, my appologies otherwise.

Use a mixture of HYDROGEN PEROXIDE (3% is safe for food grade) and
water. Aproximately 1 capful for 1 cup of water for proper dilution.

IT IS EXTREMELY SAFE !!! for any creature 2-legged or 4.

Here is a webpage to refer to further educational reference only:

http://www.h2o2-4u.com/house.html

The hollistic benefits are outstanding.

You can get that anywhere for less than a buck and is in nearly every
household.

**Water and white vingar are a must as well. Wonderful solution for
all as well.

Good luck
Pam
Christine & Halo

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Hllywoodcaper7@... wrote:
>
> hmm. . .I am interested as well.
>
>> I was also wondering about cleanliness in the RAW feedings, esp
since we also
> have a 5 yr old child.
>
> Our floors are wood though so I am limited to vinegar and water or
our
> Shaklee products.
>
> >>
> Thanks!
>
> Tamatha
>
>

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the hydrogen solution mixture and the website link! Great stuff!
Tamatha :)

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Cutting up chicken
Posted by: "Marion" mbldesigns@yahoo.com mbldesigns
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Actually I have to cut the pieces a whole lot smaller for 3 of my
dogs. Bernie the sheltie can sort of chew through the thigh bone, but
not really the leg bone. Connie a 50lb mutt however will swallow his
pieces whole and that includes an entire leg, meat and bone and all.
He choked last night and fell over and this was on a thigh bone. I
dont' know what's wrong with him that he won't chew. His teeth are fine
and he is actually at my feet right now chewing on a stick, though it
is only with his front teeth. Frankie a black lab/blue heeler won't
even touch his chicken unless it's in bite size pieces. He chews a bit
and then swallows. Thankfully the other 3 have figured out how to
chew, but the are bigger dogs. Am I doing something wrong in feeding
these 3 thighs and legs?

Thanks,
Marion

. You can also pop alot of the
> chicken joints with your hands.
>
> HTH Carla
>

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "aliinfl" aliinfl3@aol.com aliinfl
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT))

Marion,since your dogs are so good at eating in one spot why dont you
try cheapo vinyl placements? Same concept as the tablecloth but much
easier to wipe up since they are stiff and you wont be wasting all
that water and electricity using the washing machine so much. I also
would revert back to simple vinegar and water. Bleach[clorine] is
really not healthy for anyone anyway. I am sure you are leary since
your H got so sick, but it's hard to say with 100% certainty that is
was from the meat and he could have as easily caught something from
anywhere,even his desk at work.Bacteria is everywhere and studies
show the worst culprits are countertops,desktops and door handles.So
from this info[and it could even be more so a mental thing],I do use
a separate washcloth or sponge for dishes,than I use for wiping down
countertops/tables.I do have separate veggie and meat boards,but I
throw my meat cutting board in the dishwasher so I cant really help
you there. I dont have to cut up my dog's meat,but meat is meat so I
dont see any reason to use a separate board for them.If the wood
seems too slimey and the glass too loud to you, try plastic. I would
just use a separate washcloth for all the dogs things and hang it up
to dry and reuse for the week or until it started stinking. Like
Chris O,I am not really so concerned with bacteria from my dog's food
being a huge threat since lord knows whats on our shoes or the dogs
paws. I'm more afraid of the handles on the grocery carts cuz I dont
know where those people hands have been!
Alicia~

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Marion LoPrinzi <mbldesigns@...>
wrote:

>
> OK, you're probably wondering why would I be so concerned. Well my
husband is just getting better from 4 days home extremely sick in bed
with food poisoning. He and I ate all the same things, but he cuts up
the chicken because he has the strength to get through the bones (we
have 2 dogs who swallow whole pieces, yikes). We wash our hands
well, but something obviously didn't get washed properly, or maybe
something got splashed. So I need help and recommendations.
>
> Thank you in advance for everything,
> Marion
>

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Cutting up chicken
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:28 pm ((PDT))

Marion,
If you make the chicken, whole, or half, (and it sounds like your dogs are big enough to handle a half a chicken just fine) it will be in such a big piece that the dog can NOT choke on it, they will HAVE to chew it more to eat it. And they don't have to eat the whole big piece you give them. You can take away whatever they don't eat and give the rest at the next meal. That might help with the choking, and it will help make them chew their food. You have to train them to chew, not let them train you to cut up the food for them.:) And the chewing is important, it keeps the teeth clean and the gums massaged and from getting diseases and stuff. So hang in there and be firm.:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1g. Re: Cutting up chicken
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:12 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Marion" <mbldesigns@...> wrote:
>
> Actually I have to cut the pieces a whole lot smaller for 3 of my
> dogs. Bernie the sheltie can sort of chew through the thigh
> bone, but
> not really the leg bone.

I wouldn't worry about Bernie. He can get as much of the bone as he
needs and in time will probably get better at eating them.

> Connie a 50lb mutt however will swallow his
> pieces whole and that includes an entire leg, meat and bone
> and all.

I would feed Connie larger pieces. I suggest leg quarters. They
are even cheaper/lb than legs by themselves. Connie doesn't need to
be fed small pieces. She will swallow them whole and sometimes get
choked. :) :) :)

> Frankie a black lab/blue heeler won't
> even touch his chicken unless it's in bite size pieces. He
> chews a bit
> and then swallows.

Frankie is the trainer of the group. He has you trained to do his
work for him. Give him a chicken quarter or something larger and
just stand back and let him do the work. Stay out of his way and
don't hover. If he walks away from it or stops playing with it for
10 minutes, take it up and put it away until next meal. No food or
snacks or treats between meals for Frankie until he learns he must
do his own chewing.

> Am I doing something wrong in feeding
> these 3 thighs and legs?

Legs and thighs are ok for very small dogs. For medium to large
dogs, backs and quarters should be the minimum size.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: allergies
Posted by: "hjbartling" hjbartling@comcast.net hjbartling
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:04 pm ((PDT))

Bill,

I've never heard of it either. But...not dealing with allergies much, I
wondered if a full blown allergic response could involve respiratory
symptoms too. I really think it's environmental. The only reason she
isn't as bad as she was is because we've been in the air conditioning
due to the current heat wave we've been experiencing.

My hours have changed, so there really isn't any need for the premix
now anyway. I'll be continuing just the meat/bones/organs and benadryl
I guess and hope for some relief for her.

Joanne

> I don't think food allergies cause sneezing. If he has a food
> allergy, you will not be able to determine it as long as you feed
> premix. I just made a post in another thread about an elimination
> diet that can be tried to determined if your dog has a food allergy
> and what the allergen is if he does. It will not work with premix
> in the diet.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (59)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: How much bones?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kate, let's start by changing "raw boney meats" to "raw meaty
bones." You want lots of meat, with only some bone. You can start
feeding your bichon 2-3% of their ideal adult weight every day.
Little dogs often need up to 5% depending on their activity level.
Start on the lower end and if you notice her getting to skinny, add
more food.

Really, you probably don't have to worry about a bloody mouth. Most
dogs are great at cleaning up after themselves. My GSP is primarily
white but he never has stains around his mouth. Well, sometimes if
he eats something like fresh beef heart he'll have a little joker
smile for a couple of minutes, but he wipes his face on his towel and
it is gone. Since your girl has longer fur, you might wipe her face
with a towel if she doesn't clean herself enough for you.

Supermarkets are good places for food finds when there is a sale on.
Keep an eye out for the sale flyers and when you go shopping for
yourself. Depending on where you are in the country, there is
probably a buying group that you can join. When you buy in bulk it
is a whole lot cheaper. I would love to feed nothing but humanely
raised, pasture fed animals, but my pocketbook can't support it. I
do buy it when I find a good deal though. I generally don't buy meat
for more than $1.30/lb, and most often less than $1/lb unless it is
someone's birthday or a holiday.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "deep_ocean_of_sorrow"
<deep_ocean_of_sorrow@...> wrote:

> how much raw boney meats i should give my bichon frise (weighs about
> 17lbs)?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4. Re: Not fullly aware of all the plunge entails...
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the backpacking tips, Jen, and for being nice about it. I got the info from the archives, and it pretty much sound like what I do for human food, except that I use salt as a preservative for mine...not such a good idea for the dog! Guess being dry would keep it fresh enough, even without salt, as long as it was used shortly after dehydration.

RE: I would encourage you to explore your current perceptions of feeding raw and see if it's really as difficult or time-consuming (or expensive or dangerous or whatever might be holding
you back) as you think.

There is nothing in particular holding me back, and as more and more of the meals I am giving are raw, I may end up on an all-raw diet before too long, just by default. I had never heard of an all-raw diet until a few weeks ago, and didn't think other presumed-to be-normal pet owners fed their pets raw. When my former vet found out how I fed, he was horrified, and persuaded me to switch to processed food to my severly epileptic dog, clearly a poor choice, in hindsight. It's nice to know there is a community of people who feed more naturally, to get better information.

Also good to have found a more holistic vet!

Lori

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5. After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong with h
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi. Today,I got meat box and I was bagging meat and bones in zipbags.

One of them was Mutton. I am not going to introduce the meat yet but I wanted to gather meat before weather get more hot.

I usually give her some sample when bagging because it gives me a good idea whether she is going to hesitate to bite it or ignore it or eat right away,and before introducing meat,I have a little idea what she will be like.

Mutton bone I got did not look shoulder,more like leg bone that I am not comfortable to feed bone to her,so,I got the meat off from bone,and bagged the meat and hold the bone to get meat off a bit for herself before I get toss it.

She did loved it and very motivated.

She wanted to get into marrow too.So, I grabbed a chopstick and slide it inside the bone and she had what she wanted as well as some meat off the bone.

The bone got cleanly meat off,so,I tossed the bone.

A minutes or two later,she vomited white form. I did not get to see closer look if it had bits of meat in it or not but she re-ate it.

I cleaned the area and,I continued what I was doing.

Then,she started shaking head. She should not have problems with mite etc all the sudden so,I wondered if it is something to do with mutton meat.Or,nausea??

Right now,she is under the desk and laying down no head shaking.

Anybody has any ideas why she suddenly started shaking head after re-ate the vomiting?

I am guessing why she vomit was probably too much marrow came out when I poke the bone and too much marrow for her to digest/to get it stay put. I do not think meat was problem because it was probably about 1 table spoon worth meat or so.

thank you

yassy

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:20 pm ((PDT))

On one of my other lists, a vet just posted a bunch of info on giant breed
puppies and that it's not protein...it's excess calcium with a bunch of
citations to read. I'll get her permission and post 'em to rawchat.

There are plenty of breeders in plenty of breeds who have misconceptions
such as this one based on lack of sufficient knowledge.

On 7/10/07, Angela Brown <irisbarbata@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***
>
>
> There are plenty of raw feeders in the mastiff community as well as
> raw mastiff breeders that would agree with me and I feel confident in
> their knowledge and experience on this topic. I am not talking about
> out of control growth but controlled growth. You can give "too much"
> protein to a mastiff puppy, of this I am certain. If you don't believe
> me then look into it. An example would be giving too much red meat
> like beef.
> Angie Brown
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
> "Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

Try cutting some of the fatty stuff off. Cut back each meal just a smidge,
amount wise. It's amazing how much just a few ounces seems to affect a
puppy that way.

Other than that...just give him some time to adjust. If, after a couple of
weeks, he's still got sloppy stools, consider a fecal check for parasites.

On 7/11/07, rottinluvr <rottinluv@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Ok, my new guy is eating chicken leg quarters great! I'm feeding him 3-
> 4 times a day. It's averaging about 1.5 to 2# a day.
>
> He still has liquid poop! He's having to go anywhere from every one and
> a half hours to maybe 3 hours tops. I know puppies go quite often, but
> this seems excessive. He's had a total of two semi firm ones in the 6
> days he's been here. He's acting normal... total puppy terror!
>
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. Re: Panosteitis/pano
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:38 pm ((PDT))

This is forwarded, with permission, from a vet on another one of my lists.
While she's a kibble feeder, so her solution is to go with a large-breed
puppy kibble which has less calcium, a simpler solution for us is to
obviously not feed excessive amounts of calcium (ie bones). I posted this
over to raw chat so it's there for continued discussion should our wonderful
mod team decide this is too OT for rawfeeding.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is known since the early 70's that panosteitis is something associated
with fast growth in large breed.

*The protein content is not in cause for panosteitis*. The problem is more
complex than that. The calcium intake is one of the major concerns in large
and giant breed puppies only. There are many studies about it since the
70's.

A miniature breed puppy doesn't have the same needs than a giant breed puppy
as the Chihuahua stop to grow at about 6 months and the Great Dane at about
18 to 24 months.

In the early 80's, there was no puppy food intended for large breed puppies,
but our vet (and the specialist at University of Montreal College of Med Vet
who did the x-rays on some of our dogs) was already changing large breed
puppies with panosteitis to a adult food (lower calcium).

*Nutrition and skeletal development: recent advances*

H.A.W. Hazewinkel DVM, PhD, Dipl. ECVS, Dipl. ECVCN

(…) in Great Danes puppies nourished by the bitch and given in addition a
high Ca diet only at

the age of 3 till 6 weeks, an increased CT-response on plasma Ca increase
could be noticed till the age of

4 months and in all these dogs radiological confirmed enostosis
(panosteitis) could be diagnosed at the

age of 4 months but not in the control fed 1.1%-food all the time
(Hazewinkel et al, 2000). *So temporal*

*high Ca intake, even not noticed by the breeder and new owner, can have
consequences in later life. (…)*

* *

*Preventive Measures in Canine Orthopaedic Medicine *

Åke Hedhammar, DECVIM
Professor Internal Medicine-Companion Animals Department of Small Animal
Clinical Sciences, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
Uppsala, Sweden

* *

b. Oversupplementation--excessive amounts of specific nutrients

In our study at Cornell, by design, we used a diet with a high calcium
content (2,1 %). During our study it became apparent that such a high
calcium content add to the detrimental effects of overfeeding. It was
postulated that excessive food--*overfeeding *as well as excessive amounts
of calcium--*oversupplementation *with calcium* is* not compatible with
optimal skeletal characteristics in large sized breeds. The Dutch research
group in Utrecht have then proven that a too high calcium content in a diet
have negative effects also when fed in more restricted amounts *(Goedegebuure
et al. 1986) and that negative effects are not caused by level of protein
(Nap et al. 1991) (…)*

2. Panosteitis

(…)Usage of complete and balanced diets in restricted amount is the only
preventive measures that can be instituted in this condition and of utmost
importance during recovery. As excessive calcium intake during an early
phase of growth (3-6 weeks of age) have been related to panosteitis
(Hazewinkel* et al. 2000), **it is essential to keep the calcium level at an
optimal level already from that age. *

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. vomitting as well...
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT))

My 16 week old has been at this for 5 days, beef and chicken only so far, no bones yet, and the stuff is cut up pretty well for him. He has vomitted twice on this diet, but never before. I want to stick to it. Is it over feeding? It really bothers me to see him puke, makes me feel like I'm making him sick on this diet!
Lyse & Guinness

Lyse

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: vomitting as well...
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

Lyse,
Vomitting as well as what else?
And why are you doing beef and Chicken?
When you start out with raw, you should always stick to one source of meat, so you can pinpoint a problem, if one should occur.
You should back off on one meat, I would suggest sticking with just chicken, and doing the whole chicken, not just the meat. Your dog needs the bones too. And the organs. Use the whole chicken. Read the archives here, do some research. But stay on chicken for at least a couple of weeks before you try a different meat source.
What kind of dog do you have, how big is it, and what exactly are you feeding it and how much are you feeding?
And vomiting only two times, is not really bad, maybe just getting used to raw. Does it eat it back up again afterwards? If so, that is ok, and perfectly normal, and no need to worry.
Let us know some more info, and keep us posted, this place is a wealth of information.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: vomitting as well...
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

>My 16 week old has been at this for 5 days, beef and chicken only so far

Hi. I think that since the dog is still new to this diet,you may want to stick to one protin for about a week or so til he gets use to it,and then introduce next protin source and stay with it a while until he gets used to it and move on to the other will be better.

Maybe too many kinds of meat at one time too soon,although he is not getting to use to this diet yet and vomit I think.

Take a time and he will be fine.

My dog was on chicken one week,no organ,no fish no nothing but chicken til I think she got used to it. I try introducing one thing at a time so that you know what is causing problems.

Good luck!

yassy

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9d. Re: vomitting as well...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:15 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
> Is it over feeding? It really bothers me to see him puke, makes
> me feel like I'm making him sick on this diet!

Lyse,

You are being an over protective mommy. You should have him on
chicken only at this point. He is not yet ready for beef. Check out
my web page at http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm to see why.
You are not doing him a favor by feeding him boneless and cutting up
his food. My Thor was eating chicken quarters at 12 weeks, not cut up
and with bone.

I suspect your over protectiveness is causing him to throw up. He is
getting too much food into his stomach too fast to handle. It doesn't
mean you are feeding him too much, it means the food is making it to
his stomach too fast. He should be working at it, ripping and tearing
meat, and crunching bones.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Fly Issues
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT))

"but you really should be picking up the food after he is done"...

I pick up the leftovers and I still have a problem. I think it is the
blood that seeps into the grass. I was sitting on my swing and the flys
were swarming on the grass as if the meat were still there. Gross!!!
I am going to try to spray the grass but will it get on the meat?

Cheryl

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Fly Issues
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:13 pm ((PDT))

hmm. .I would maybe spray the area down with a hose pipe to disperse and
dilute the juices. No chemicals though as your dog could ingest them from residue
left on the grass and in the soil. Someone mentioned the fly trap
website--that looked really awesome! Tamatha

In a message dated 7/11/2007 5:14:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rosey031801@sbcglobal.net writes:

"but you really should be picking up the food after he is done"...

I pick up the leftovers and I still have a problem. I think it is the
blood that seeps into the grass. I was sitting on my swing and the flys
were swarming on the grass as if the meat were still there. Gross!!!
I am going to try to spray the grass but will it get on the meat?

Cheryl

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
Posted by: "Eve" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

Sorry I have quite a few questions, but I'm going into
my third evening on all raw and I'm still a little on
edge as I am hoping he is eating enough. Have been
giving him chicken to start for the week. He finally
started consuming the chicken last night, vs. licking
it as he did the first night. (He's a pekingese.)

Here's my next round of questions:

1. Every so often he gets a funny smell from his
mouth. Don't know if it's coming from his stomach or
from his teeth. (which are yellow, a couple bordering
brown--after just getting them cleaned at the vet a
month ago mind you). I am worried this might be a
bigger problem. How can I get him to start chomping on
and consuming bones so maybe he can "brush" his teeth
and hopefully fix this stinky problem? I seriously can
smell it from across the room--this is worrying me.

2. What are some good second options to chicken for
going into next week? I am not into giving whole
animals with fur and all attached. I want to keep this
fairly bearable for myself as well.

3. Is an organ (if given in a larger amount)
considered one full meal?

4. It's hard to measure if he ate the correct
percentage from what's left on the chicken. I let him
just eat the chicken until he walked away from it as
it seemed like he was full. Is this ok?

5. Would ground bone suffice sometimes for his fill of
bone? How do I go about serving this and where would I
find it? I think someone answered this already but
can't find it but, what are a few good easy, edible
bones for him? How will he know he needs to eat the
bone? For some reason I don't see him wanting to rip
into a bone

6. I haven't seen much on this list about water. I've
read that it's better to give them filtered or even
bottled water vs. regular tap bacause of chemicals,
etc. Any feedback?

7. Can I sometimes feed small chunks of meet as long
as he's chewing it? Or is it almost certain that he
will just swallow them?

8. I am still going to give him fish oil. I used to
open it up and mix it into his food. Now that won't be
so easy. How do I give it to him? The ones I have are
called Skin Formula 3V Caps, which contains fish oil
and omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Is this what
I should be giving? Suggestions?

Again, apologies for the lengthy email. Just want to
make it out of the first week without doing too much
damage! :)

Thanks again,
Eve, NY

____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Trying to get my little guy on bones, etc.
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:32 pm ((PDT))

Eve,
You should stay on chicken for a couple of weeks just to make sure all is well, don't rush to change things up so fast, it's not needed, you're doing fine. The whole chicken, with the innards, the gizard, liver, and heart, are all you need for your bones, and organs for the whole diet.. No need to add anything else. At all. Your chicken, has the bones, the meat, and the organs. All wrapped in a neat and tidy package. And letting it eat until it is done is usually fine, unless it is a gulper. Yours sounds like it is doing good.
Cleaning the teeth will take some time, you have lots of buildup on the teeth from old kibble even after the cleaning done professionally. When you can, later, in a couple of weeks, add some pork or beef ribs to the diet, or some pigs feet, and those bones will help with cleaning the teeth, just like eating the chicken bones will.
Organs, alone don't make a good meal. Neither do ground bones alone. When you give the whole chicken, and it eats this whole chicken, eventually it gets all of what it needs. It doesn't have to get all it needs at each individual sitting. It all works out in the wash so to speak.
All chunks of meat are good, feed away. Most bones are good too, except some weight bearing bones, but larger dogs do well with some of those too, it just depends on the dog, you'll find these things out as you go along.
On the fish oil, try later on, giving your dog a fish, see how that works, then you don't have to do the suppliments. I find mine don't like fish.
And on the water, all my dogs get tap outside, filtered inside, that is just how it works out here, and it's totally up to you. I think as long as it is fresh and cold, and not filled with bugs and stuff it will be fine.
Experiment, try new things, but take it slow, work out the kinks first, then move to other stuff, don't take it too fast, and not too much boney stuff all at once, it will make the poops too runny. And that isn't fun.
Keep up the great work
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: squid report
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:28 pm ((PDT))

>the squid was successful in a sense. , i bought them uncleaned, and then snipped out the >beaks with a pair of kitchen shears.

Hi,Tammy.Thank you for the report. I guess some dogs love it and some not too much,then.
I have seen my mom clean squid all the time,so I can imagine what you did to it.

The squid I get to see at fish counter is all frozen and I do not think it had tentacles.

If the price was not too bad,then,I might like to try giving it too.

And, my mom used to make Ika meshi now and then. She stuff the squid body with the teriyaki/soy ginger flavored rice and steam it.She used Mochi gome;much stickier rice than normal Japanese rice.

You can try this while your dog having squid dinner:-P

Kind of feeling nice to have similar meal to dogs togeher,don't you think?

yassy

---------------------------------
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:30 pm ((PDT))

all of Guinness' meat? The idea of putting a chicken leg on the floor...and I don't have a yard yet. Also the idea of having an entire bone and meat gulped down at once doesn't work for me yet.
Am I wrong for chopping his beef and chicken [so far skinless and boneless breast on the chicken and cheap steaks for the beef] and putting it in a bowl? Also, I will be adding chicken bone-age to the mix today if possible. I think I need a scale so I can more precisely weigh the meat so I don't accidently over feed which might be causing the puking. No, the chicken was not enhanced as far as I know, it was skinless/boneless breasts.

Lyse

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

Yes, he should be doing the chopping with his own teeth, that is best for him, and you should give him a big enough piece that he has to chew it, so if needed give him half the chicken, and let him go. Then take some away when you think he has had his fill. And it isn't supposed to work for you silly, it's supposed to work for the dog:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------