Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 16, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11813

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Ross Senger
1b. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Kasandra
1c. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Bearhair
1d. Re: 80/10/10?
From: costrowski75

2a. Border Collie pups / RAW
From: Dave Strickland
2b. Re: Border Collie pups / RAW
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: How much heart is too much? Training treats
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
3b. Re: How much heart is too much? Training treats
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: lactating bitch refusing raw
From: tottime47

5a. Re: She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
From: Andrea
5b. Re: She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
From: shefy gupta

6a. Re: Are slightly runny stools a problem?
From: Andrea
6b. Re: Are slightly runny stools a problem?
From: Laurie Swanson

7a. When is a pup no longer a pup?
From: Ross Senger
7b. Re: When is a pup no longer a pup?
From: carnesbill
7c. Re: When is a pup no longer a pup?
From: Laura Atkinson

8a. Re: Little odgs
From: tottime47

9. not eating with her paws
From: Lyse Garant

10a. mucousy poop/bile vomits (was Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: Laurie Swanson

11a. Re: 80/10/10?//scale
From: brutus_buckley

12. starting new puppy on raw food
From: leyssartade

13a. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: linoleum5017

14a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
From: Monica

15a. Re: Fish Question....
From: linoleum5017

16. only salmon?
From: Jessie

Messages
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1a. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:29 pm ((PDT))

>what is the best kind of scale to get for weighing food? I need one
>the is reasonably priced. Any reccomendations?

Cherie,

I just use a normal bathroom scale. I package food in meal size ziploc
freezer bags (2-3lbs). I weigh myself and then weigh myself plus the
food bag. You can get bathroom scales that claim to be accurate within
0.1 lbs.

It is a cheep way :P, I don't know how I would go about measuring for
smaller dogs.

-Ross

Messages in this topic (14)
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1b. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Kasandra" klhesek@yahoo.com klhesek
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:25 pm ((PDT))

Me too... I don't weigh every meal, but for some foods I know my dogs
will get sick with too much, and I'm HORRIBLE at eyeballing it!

Target and Walmart both have good, inexpensive scales...

Kasandra

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I think I have to stand up and say "Hi, My name is Laura, I've
> been rawfeeding for 5 years and I still weigh my dogs' meals."

Messages in this topic (14)
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1c. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

Jessie wrote:

>Laura Atkinson wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I think I have to stand up and say "Hi, My name is Laura, I've
>> been rawfeeding for 5 years and I still weigh my dogs' meals."
>> Phew. I feel much better now :-)

>Good, I'm not the only one!
>Of course I've only been doing this for 7-8 months, but I've got
>Brody doing agility and am trying to keep her as absolutely trim as
>possible. I'd like her thinner than what she is now, but won't
>stress myself over it. . . .
>I got my scale (not digital) for about $10 at Bed Bath and Beyond.
>Its small, easy to keep on the counter but out of the way. It only
>has markers for up to 7lbs but I never use it for anything that heavy.
>>It gets the job done and makes life easier for me. So while a lot of
>people don't use scales, I do and I like it!

I have a digital scale from Bed Bath & Beyond (don't forget your coupon!) and
use it to ensure I avoid my tendency to overfeed. Two of my three came in too
heavy (I knew the Setter would, wasn't sure about the Collie). It's just so
damn FUN to feed 'em and watch 'em eat it, I need the scale to stop me from
handing them everything I have in the fridge!

It has a zero set, so I can place a container on it, zero it, then add the
meat. I only use it for the total, not to calculate 80/10/10.

Lora

Messages in this topic (14)
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1d. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I think I have to stand up and say "Hi, My name is Laura, I've
> been rawfeeding for 5 years and I still weigh my dogs' meals."
*****
Yeah, but you got weird dogs that gain weight when you wave a steak at
them.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. Border Collie pups / RAW
Posted by: "Dave Strickland" dave@outrunbc.com herdnbc
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi ,

A friend of mine is getting ready to have a litter of 2nd generation
RAW fed Border Collies.

Where could I post to get this information out to people that feed RAW?

Thanks,

Dave Strickland
www.outrunbc.com
www.okstockdog.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Border Collie pups / RAW
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:39 pm ((PDT))

"Dave Strickland" <dave@...> wrote:
>
> Hi ,
>
> A friend of mine is getting ready to have a litter of 2nd generation
> RAW fed Border Collies.
>
> Where could I post to get this information out to people that feed
RAW?
*****
Oh jeez, Dave, like I need to know this. Please tell me your friend
lives in some remote inaccessible corner of Oklahoma.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: How much heart is too much? Training treats
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

Bill, what do you use that is that small? Liver? Can you use them for
positive reinforcement with potty training? Thanks! Tamatha

In a message dated 7/16/2007 1:12:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
carnesw@bellsouth.net writes:

--- In _rawfeeding@yahoogrorawfeed_ (mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com) ,
"Suzie G" <gusmyhairyboy@gus> wrote:
>

Training treats should be very tasty and small. The treats I use are
about the size of the head of a pin. I don't think you can cut heart
that small. Regardless, the volume of training treats is so small as
to be an insignificant part of the diet.

Bill Carnes
_http://www.skylarzahttp://www.skylahttp:_
(http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm)

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: How much heart is too much? Training treats
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Hllywoodcaper7@... wrote:
>
>
>
> Bill, what do you use that is that small? Liver? Can you use
> them for
> positive reinforcement with potty training?

I use Authority Little Liver Treats from Petsmart and sometimes
BilJack Liver Treats. They come in little kibble size chunks. Each
chunk will make about 15 or 20 different treats. Yes, I use them
for postiive reinforcement treats all the time for training any
behavior.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: lactating bitch refusing raw
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

Hi Chris O,

You're probably right, I threw out the wrapper,
but all I know if he wouldn't go near it.......one sniff and he
was gone, lol.

I figure he was like most males, waiting for a steak, hahahaha!

Carol, Charkee & Maggie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:

> Since the presence of melamine went unnoticed in wet petfood until
> cynauric acid got into the act, my guess is your dog was not
responding
> to melamine, but rather that the pork was "enhanced" for flavor
and/or
> juiciness.
>
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:35 pm ((PDT))

I have a couple of ideas for you. First, have you tried giving her
partially frozen foods? It sounds like it might be a texture thing
for her and firming up the meat a little might go a long way.

If you try freezing and it still doesn't work, it's time for some
serious tough love. You're doing pretty well with that already, but
I can tell your heart isn't really in it. Trust me, if she's
healthy, she won't starve herself to death. Stop chopping things up
for her and making the wonderful breakfast patties. At feeding time,
she gets her food, if she doesn't want it, tough. Tomorrow she might
be more hungry.

Not touching things with their paws isn't completely uncommon. Some
dogs take a while to really "get it," and some go their whole lives
keeping paws away from food. They might eat differently, but they
manage and it probably takes more effort on their part.

Keep giving your girl the fish oil capsules, but try to get her to
eat more meat. Oh, and give the hubby a good talking to about the
leftover t-bones. I know his heart is in the right place, but cooked
bones are really bad.

You may consider moving on to pork once her stools settle out. Pork
is more fatty, more flavorful, and more firm than chicken so she
might like it more.

Don't feel like she hates you for being tough. Once she gets the
idea that *you* are in charge instead of her, she'll come around.
Good luck, and let us know how it is going.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mz_boomer2" <mz_boomer2@...>
wrote:

> I have done everything including taking it away and making her
> wait longer and longer in between feedings. Between her stuborness
> and mine she didn't eat for 2 days and finally broke down with the
> chicken the 1 week. My concern is that she is extremely active and
> runs everywhere burning up alot of energy and drops weight rapidly.
> And if I keep "battling witts" with her ...she just eats that much
> less and losing THAT much more weight. I watch my husband like a
hawk
> when he's home...so no more sneaking her stuff, she has no k**b**,
> and she doesn't get treats, and I am home all day with her.
>
> I know I am the bad guy to her now...she doesn't sleep with me
> anymore and she just glares at me across the room! She respects my
> commands and listens well but she is so sullen that its breaking my
> heart.

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:24 pm ((PDT))

hmm i had this problem with snowy, but i don't give him meats yet that he needs to 'hold' down. i catch him holding it down sometimes, but very rarely. mostly he uses his teeth.

if you want to put weight on her and it's becoming a big concern, i'd say give her something she doesn't need to hold down. you can always work on that later. and try a whole crapload of different meats. i feed snowy different varieties of meats by bravo, elk, ostrich, turkey, lamb breast, venison, rabbit, quail... maybe you'll get lucky and find some stuff she likes!

best
shefy and snowy

mz_boomer2 <mz_boomer2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi there,

First off I want to thank everyone for their expertise and
knowledge.

I have been feeding my 2 lab mixes raw for a little over 4 weeks
now. My lab/Sharpei (Halo) is thriving although he still gives me
the "look" ....Starts off by licking his chops with his ears perked,
tail wagging, and then he flattens down his ears (tail stops wagging)
bowing his head as if to say "..awww Mom AGAIN!??" ...sniffs it,
takes it, then proceeds to just guard it for awhile until his
competiion (his sister) starts poking around HIS space, then he eats
it. At least he is eating it.

My main concern was my female lab/Basenji mix (Christine). She was
the reason why I started seeking this diet. Her pickiness was making
me crazy. As if she is worried about her "waist line". She just picks
at the food won't eat again for another day or two. My worry was
increasing rapidly as I saw her ribs more and more. Took her to the
vet got a clean bill of health. Then I found this list and started to
her around a little bit. I want to put more weight on her (maybe
another 6 lbs??) I know it doesn't sound like much but on her
physique it makes quite a bit of difference.

I started off with the chicken 1/4's the first week (sometimes
having to pull it in half because she is such a "dainty eater") and
slowly introduced a little pork chop alternating w/chicken the 2nd.
Then I noticed how her fur became more course and DULL on her
backside and rear haunches. Her tears ducts would get big gloopy
oogies (much more than normal). Poop chalky white. So the only thing
I could think of was that she was getting over calcified. So the 3rd
week eliminated chicken bones or any bones (found out hubbie was
sneaking in T-bones left over from eating out steak dinners when I
STEPPED on several !) ......So, now the 4th week have introduced beef
liver, heart and ground beef with raw egg.

I have found the wonderful world of salmon oil thanks to this
list! And have proceeded to make a daily "breakfast" this week of a
raw hamburger pattie with 1 egg(no shells)and 4 each 1,000mg salmon
oil caps cut and drained into the mixture. Christine has taken very
well to this mix. She ate it up like her old canned food she loved.

Her coat has seemed to improve a little. Its seems "heavier" to
the touch and getting a little gloss back. And her eyes have cleared
up almost over night. And poop has returned to normal. I just don't
know how long its going to take to right her coat with all of her
dainty eating.

Of course, I got the "look" from Halo...but he soon dug in too.
Today I wanted her to have a little liver to "move" out some of the
excess bone she still had in her....I chopped into tiny pieces and
mixed with the raw ground beef mix...the little minx SPIT them ALL
OUT!! and ate everything else. Did the same with heart yesterday too.

So at noon a little while ago I gave her a chicken breast. She
takes it by the skin and when she eats it her paws are out to her
sides (like a Y) she jiggles the meat from the skin, lets it drop
then crunches on the bones and spits out skin and meat!! She leaves
behind about 60% of the meat with the bone in the middle and walks
away! ...its almost like she refuses to get her paws dirty to hold
and tear into her meal !! But she will run & play in the mud !

I have had her all her life and I have never seen this strange
behavior for a dog. She loves anything that crunches. I have given he
pigs feet and she uses her paws to hold and tear and actually
FINISHES that little meal. She is not taking raw steak, roasts, or
anything large or anything meaty. And she SPITS OUT the organs. I am
getting confounded !!

I have done everything including taking it away and making her
wait longer and longer in between feedings. Between her stuborness
and mine she didn't eat for 2 days and finally broke down with the
chicken the 1 week. My concern is that she is extremely active and
runs everywhere burning up alot of energy and drops weight rapidly.
And if I keep "battling witts" with her ...she just eats that much
less and losing THAT much more weight. I watch my husband like a hawk
when he's home...so no more sneaking her stuff, she has no k**b**,
and she doesn't get treats, and I am home all day with her.

I know I am the bad guy to her now...she doesn't sleep with me
anymore and she just glares at me across the room! She respects my
commands and listens well but she is so sullen that its breaking my
heart. I am strong enough to break up the stubborn streak in her, but
her inability to eat even a decent amount of anything is making me
nuts !!

Sorry for this lengthy post, but I wanted give as much info as
possible for you guys.

Any suggestions ? Anyone else had this problem?

Thanks in advance,
Pam
Christine & Halo

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Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Are slightly runny stools a problem?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:35 pm ((PDT))

Lori, you are right, loose stools sometimes happen. More often than
not, they are a reflection of what went in. Feed a whole meal of beef
heart, get dark slightly loose stools out. Some people have a "food
diary" when they start that keeps track of what was fed and any
interesting observations about what then came out. I agree, unless it
is diarreah or chronic loose stool that upsets the dog, I never give a
second thought to them.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...>
wrote:
>
> This forum is a little similar to baby groups...it's amazing how much
time a bunch of grown-ups spend discussing poop! So here I go with
another:

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Are slightly runny stools a problem?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi Lori,

Well, I'm not a medical professional but I don't worry about it
anymore (I did a bit in the beginning). Loose stools always make
sense with regard to being new to raw, or what I've fed previously (a
much bigger meal than usual, a new food, a few boneless meals,
something really fatty--especially a big meal of this). And they
don't accompany any other symptoms, and they resolve (change) back
to "normal" as I take note of things and adjust (reduce food
quantity, fat-content, etc.). I do believe it's something to be
aware of and not let go on too long. I mean, it just doesn't seem
natural for there to be constant squirts--plus I don't want to be
having to wipe my dog's butt all the time. I think you will know
if/when there's cause for concern (chronic, doesn't seem logically
related to what's being fed, other symptoms, etc.).

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...>
wrote:

is it a health concern or indicative of a problem if a dog's stool is
runny now and then? Or just something harmless that happens every now
and again, and no big deal, as with humans?

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. When is a pup no longer a pup?
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:35 pm ((PDT))

I have an eight month old Great Dane that has been eating raw since
about 6 months old. She is a pig and will eat whatever I give her.

I have been feeding 2-3 lbs a day (gauging from her mothers weight of
150lbs); according to what I have read this might not be quite enough (%
3 or 150 = 4.5lbs), but she seems to be pretty thick... and I don't
want her to start getting fat.

At what point can a puppy start eating once per day? Up to now I have
been dividing her meals into three one lb packages.

Thanks

Ross

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: When is a pup no longer a pup?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ross Senger" <rosssenger@...>
wrote:
>

> I have been feeding 2-3 lbs a day (gauging from her mothers
> weight of
> 150lbs); according to what I have read this might not be
> quite enough (%
> 3 or 150 = 4.5lbs), but she seems to be pretty thick... and
> I don't
> want her to start getting fat.

Don't worry about percentages of weights. You have been feeding her
long enough now that you can judge what her build is like. If she's
too heavy, feed less. To thin? Feed more. Those percentages are
just starting points. You are beyond starting points now. :)

> At what point can a puppy start eating once per day? Up to now
> I have
> been dividing her meals into three one lb packages.

I started feeding my Thor 2 meals a day at 12 weeks when he came to
live with me and all was ok. I still feed both my dogs 2 meals a
day just because thats the way I prefer. If I were you, I would go
to 2 meals for a couple of months then go to one if you wish. If
she starts getting the runs with one meal, go back to two for a
while longer.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: When is a pup no longer a pup?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:56 pm ((PDT))

When you get a daily amount into her that doesn't cause loose stools
and you can stand listening to her whine in the AM that she's not
getting breakfast anymore <grin>.

On 7/16/07, Ross Senger <rosssenger@shaw.ca> wrote:

> At what point can a puppy start eating once per day? Up to now I have
> been dividing her meals into three one lb packages.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ross

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Little odgs
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:36 pm ((PDT))

Hi Geraldine,

Glad to hear Brandy loves it too! It's super lean meat so very good
for them....

I was feeling bad cause he lost a tooth, but the vet, saint that he
is, said he didn't spot it either and he always checks his mouth
when we go in...

He gave me the tooth and it's odd, nice and clean on the outside but
you can tell the root is gone and decay inside.......

Carol, Charkee & Maggie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Carol,
> Wow, 1 bad tooth in 9 years is darn good! I just bought some rabbit
> and Brandy LOVES it.
>
> geraldine
Carol, Charkee & Maggie

Messages in this topic (8)
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9. not eating with her paws
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:25 pm ((PDT))

Christine & Halo;

Hi there, sounds like you're having a rough time. Isn't it just possible that this diet is not going to work for this dog? If my dog weren't enjoying this diet, let alone tolerate it, I wouldn't do it.
I know all you hard liners will disagree with me, but there's a time when one has to say, enough is enough. I'd give it another week at most.

Lyse

Lyse

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Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. mucousy poop/bile vomits (was Re: Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

I wonder if she might just need more time to adjust to lamb. Maybe
you could add it in more gradually. Start small and gradually work
up to larger amounts. Like Chris talks about (thanks, Chris! :-))
adding a small bit sometimes, then a little bit more, etc. Then
again, if you don't want to deal with it right now, you could give
her more time on raw and try it again later when her digestive system
is stronger.

Does she do well with other meats than lamb and chicken at this point?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> I am not sure if I should pull out lamb from feeding plan or not.
I was thinking to stick to half chicken half lamb for a while since
she seemed fine yesterday and obiously not today..and have to think
if I feed her again as meal or not.

Messages in this topic (22)
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11a. Re: 80/10/10?//scale
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

I bought a cheapie one at Target when I started raw, because I didn't
have much faith in my ability to eyeball the portions out. I stopped
using it after a few months when I relaxed a little. I tend to
complicate things unnecessarily, so, to justify my own neurotic
behavior, I will say this: I see no fault with using a scale if you are
so inclined. However, it's one step less in the process if you learn to
let it go.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (14)
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12. starting new puppy on raw food
Posted by: "leyssartade" leyssartade@yahoo.com leyssartade
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:23 pm ((PDT))

Hi, I'm a triple newbie: to dog ownership, raw feeding, and this list.
I will be bringing home my Havanese puppy in 2 weeks, and want to start him on raw food.
He will be 10 weeks old and a little under 2 lbs. My questions are:
1. what pieces are appropriate for a puppy of that size/age? (chicken thighs? wings? backs
only?)
2. should I transition him from the breeder's diet (Royal Canin) or go straight to raw feeding?
3. does anyone know of a good raw pet food supplier in New Mexico, or have other
suggestions for suppliers?
Thanks in advance!
Jackie

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>
> Oka, my boys hat eliver.
> I mean HATE it.
>
>
> Kae
>

Kae,

As I discovered through this group a month ago, there are many ways
to present liver, but it's not worth getting worked up about.

My puppy (who HATED liver) now is a great fan, as well as my cat,
since I seared it a bit before giving it to them. Mine hated the
texture, and freezing/drying it wasn't helpful. A little frying,
(less each time,) brought them right around.

Let us know how you fare.

Linoleum

Messages in this topic (19)
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________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

Sorry for the delay in replying - everyone has been home these last
two days and computer time is at a premium LOL!

Thank you, THANK YOU, for all the helpful suggestions. I will try to
answer questions here and I also have a question based on your posts.

Many of you have suggested that pancreatitis may be the problem my
Loki has. I've done some reading since the suggestion and it sure
sounds like it to me as well (thanks for leading me in this
direction!!!!!)My vet is closed today, but I will call tomorrow to
see if she checked that in the blood work.

If the dog DOES have pancreatitis, how do I feed for that? Everything
I read says low protein, low fat. A pure protein diet doesn't seem to
work there. I'm sure others of you have had dogs with this condition -
how can you maintain a raw diet without being "high protein"??? I
really welcome suggestions as I deeply believe this is the way to
feed my babies but find the two theories conflicting.

Also, to answer the question asking if Loki has had distemper
vaccines - yes, he has. As a puppy, and once after that. Then I
stopped vaccinating (except rabies - law) and began titering the dog
instead. I am NOT fond of vaccines. So he was maybe 18mths at the
last distemper. Would a shot that old begin affecting him at 4yrs?

To answer the other questions:

> What breed of dog is he?
Keeshond

> How much does he weigh?
60lbs

> What is his overall appearance like = Too thin/too fat, glossy
> coat/dull coat, etc.?
His weight is right for his build, his coat looks as glossy as a kees
will ever be. He *looks* correct for his breed.

> What exactly do you feed him?
Its a variety. The staple is chicken quarters, although we rotate
pork neck bones, pork cuts, turkey, veal, lamb, chicken or beef
livers, turkey necks, heart, gizzards etc. as they come on sale. I
try to look for variety. He loves beef but gets the squirts as the
bone is not edible in the cuts I've offered (are any??) Loki needs
more bone than our other Kees (who has an iron gullet) to remain
regular so I do have to be careful. He will not eat fish of any kind
except canned mackeral (immediate liquid stools)and has only enjoyed
rabbit once but has refused since, so those are not fed.

> When?
Dinner time.

> How much at a meal?
Kees are prone to gaining weight easily (they are lazy dogs - bred t
guard barges), so we have to be very careful not to overfeed. We keep
meals at 3/4 to 1lb each, give or take (maybe a larger meal one
night, a smaller one the next...you know)

> What other items might he eat; food, treats, stuff he buries or
>finds in the yard or walks, or other?
Not much in treats. Some dehydrated chicken livers or homemade jerky
every so often. We live in a townhome so we have to walk him several
times a day (no yard)and we have never observed him eating on walks.

> Who else feeds him, besides you?
Hubby - although he always asks what to feed LOL!

> What changes may have happened just before or at the onset of the
> vomiting/loose stools?
It was a week before vacation so there was a lot of commotion which
I'm sure was stressful for the dogs - they definitely knew something
was up. There schedules were maintained. Nothing else unusual.

> Environmental = inside / outside?
See above

> Lifestyle?
See above

> Does he drink from puddles of water, ponds, lakes?
Nope.

> Swim in them?
Nope

> Was testing done for parasites such as Giardia, more than once?
I believe so - they test the stool right? Only the day of his
illness onset, however.

> Slippery Elm Bark Powder should help soothe his digestive system
>until you can pinpoint the problem;

Thank you, Giselle - I will look for that tomorrow when I have the
car.

And again, thank you EVERYONE who is helping me figure this out. He's
still so young, I am so afraid for him.

Monica and Loki
(and Tyr who feels fine plus 3 ornery cats...)

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. Re: Fish Question....
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:22 pm ((PDT))

I got frozen smelts (ocean is cheaper,) and my cat and dog took to
them like ducks on a junebug.

: )
Lynne

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

16. only salmon?
Posted by: "Jessie" O_snobunnie_O@hotmail.com osnobunnieo
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:22 pm ((PDT))

I have a friend who started working at a fantastic vet's office when
she moved out of town. Ever since she started I've been envious and
wish I lived and worked where she does. Its a mixed practice with
some conventional medicine and some "alternative" medicine,
including a doctor who advocates raw diets.

Here's the catch - her idea of a raw diet as far as I can tell is
salmon and green beans. Yup, that's IT.

Now this friend recently adopted a Maine Coon cat from the doctor
who breeds (or used to?) them. She now has her on a diet of
salmon... and may add in beef or hamburger at some point if she can
convince herself its worth the trouble. As much as I've talked raw
with her (its not something she knew much about and is very
cheap/lazy when it comes to pet food) this is what she thinks is a
good diet for her cat. Not sure if she plans on switching over her
Beagle, but she might at some point. She also uses a supplement
called Whole Body Support.

Now... before I pass major judgement I thought I would ask. Does
there seem to be ANY logic behind this at all?? I mean, this woman
is a doctor and is advocating this diet to others??

I'm pretty sure I know what answers I can expect, but still thought
I'd toss it out there.

Jessie

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11812

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Most valuable/least valuable meat?
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Drinking a Ton of Water
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Drinking a Ton of Water
From: Yasuko herron
2c. Re: Drinking a Ton of Water
From: VBSUSAN

3a. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Laura Atkinson
3b. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Jessie
3c. Re: 80/10/10?
From: carnesbill
3d. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Laura Atkinson

4a. Re: How much heart is too much? Training treats
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Quest
From: Laura Atkinson

6a. Re: Cage free Egg Brown)and plain Organic Egg(white) Egglands' best
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: Feeding poultry - home grown vs store bought
From: Marion

8a. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
8b. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
From: Laura Atkinson
8c. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
From: Sandee Lee
8d. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

9a. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) LOVE it! *QUESTIONS
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
9b. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) LOVE it! *QUESTIONS
From: Laura Atkinson

10a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
From: Sandee Lee

11a. Re: training treats
From: Michael Moore

12. Are slightly runny stools a problem?
From: Lori Poirier

13a. Re: How much heart is too much?
From: Ross Senger

14. She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
From: mz_boomer2

15a. Re: mucousy poop/bile vomits (was Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: Yasuko herron

16. Where Can I get meat products in NEw Jersey?
From: creativevazquez

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Most valuable/least valuable meat?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:56 am ((PDT))

"Kristen" <kristengilkinsonrmt@...> wrote:
A few I remember hearing include: rabbits bred for meat
> consumption (I think it had something to do with what they were fed),
*****
Rabbits bred for meat will have been fed no worse than chickens or
beefs or pigs fed for meat. If the rabbits are for human consumption
the food will not be species appropriate but it won't be any more
poisonous than the rest. I generally feed show culls and while I
suspect they are fed less well than meat rabbits are, my dogs have not
suffered from the meals.

> groundhogs (I don't know where this comes from =S),
*****
I imagine groundhogs are a time-honored food for farm dogs and strays.
If people can eat them (and they do) dogs should be able to.

and I can't think
> of any more at the moment...oh yeah, someone said mature duck wasn't
> good, but young was.
*****
Mature ducks, like mature chickens and rabbits and virtually all other
mature critters, have been around long enough to produce some mighty
strong bones. Such bones are not likely to be crunched through as
quickly as the bones from commercial meat rabbit or six week old
chickens. Perhaps the reason why some dogs don't do "so well" with
turkey is that turkeys linger longer on this planet than chickens do.

The way I look at "mature" critters is if my dogs eat their bones,
good, if not, that's good too. Left to their own devices, I think dogs
will not necessarily want to consume old bones. They'll eat of them
what they can and move on. A mature duck has lots to offer a dog!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Drinking a Ton of Water
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:06 am ((PDT))

Eve <loulou_bean@...> wrote:
> My peke started on all raw this past week. He's been eating chicken
to start, and he drinks almost his entire bowl of water, much more than
he ever drank on any other diet. I bought the chicken at our local
supermarket.
*****
Little dog, lots of chicken, lots of injected saline solution? Check
the label for evidence of "enhancement" or injections or "glazing".
That'd be my first best guess. Beyond that, treats maybe?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Drinking a Ton of Water
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

>He's been eating chicken to start, and he drinks almost his entire bowl of water, much >more than he ever drank on any other diet. I bought the chicken at our local supermarket.

Hi,Eve. My dog started raw about 2 months ago,and drank much less water compared to kibble fed time. It is because meat has so much water retained and no need to drink much water.

However,when I bought herring in salt water package(raw fish but in water salt added),and fed it after throughly washed,she did eat it but drank water like crazy and went to pee zillions of time.I heard her ringing the gottago bell every 45 min to 1 hour and it got me tired with just going to potty with her.

It was because i think too much salt still in it even if I washed it,and needed water a lot.

So,my suggestion is that,check the chicken package and see if it had any flavored or salt watered or something other than just added water to meat itself. It could be because the chicken was too salty or something and drank water much much more.

Or,it is just simply too hot outside and needed to cool down.

Hope it helps.

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Drinking a Ton of Water
Posted by: "VBSUSAN" vbsue@comcast.net VBSUSAN
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

Could be the chicken is "enhanced" with a sodium (salt) solution. Read
the fine print on the pkg. Also see how many mgs. of sodium there is
listed. They love to sneak this solution in as it plumps up the meat
and of course, you are now paying meat prices for salt water! Sometimes
they call it "broth" ... hmmm ... really?! This so-called enhancement
is something I avoid. Dogs and cats don't need the extra sodium
(neither do I) and sometimes this solution upsets their systems.

Sue

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:10 am ((PDT))

Ok, I think I have to stand up and say "Hi, My name is Laura, I've
been rawfeeding for 5 years and I still weigh my dogs' meals."

Phew. I feel much better now :-)

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Jessie" O_snobunnie_O@hotmail.com osnobunnieo
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, I think I have to stand up and say "Hi, My name is Laura, I've
> been rawfeeding for 5 years and I still weigh my dogs' meals."
>
> Phew. I feel much better now :-)
>

Good, I'm not the only one!

Of course I've only been doing this for 7-8 months, but I've got
Brody doing agility and am trying to keep her as absolutely trim as
possible. I'd like her thinner than what she is now, but won't
stress myself over it.

With that, I base her meals on a 60lb dog (she's usually around 61-
64) and 2% would be 1.2lbs... she's also pretty active though. I try
my best to keep her meals at or under 1.5lbs. I don't weigh every
meal - in fact I do go weeks without weighing. Then I see her weight
start creeping up.

I don't use exact portions of meat/bone/organ. I'm really bad about
remembering liver... gotta drill it in my head to buy it while I'm
scoping out sales on meat.

I got my scale (not digital) for about $10 at Bed Bath and Beyond.
Its small, easy to keep on the counter but out of the way. It only
has markers for up to 7lbs but I never use it for anything that heavy.

It gets the job done and makes life easier for me. So while a lot of
people don't use scales, I do and I like it!

Jessie

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:20 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> "Hi, My name is Laura, I've
> been rawfeeding for 5 years and I still weigh my dogs' meals."

W H Y ? ? ? ?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:00 pm ((PDT))

'cause I started using one when I started raw feeding and it's just
habit. Probably latent control issues...whatever. I'm fine with it.

On 7/16/07, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > "Hi, My name is Laura, I've
> > been rawfeeding for 5 years and I still weigh my dogs' meals."
>
> W H Y ? ? ? ?
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: How much heart is too much? Training treats
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Suzie G" <gusmyhairyboy@...> wrote:
>

Training treats should be very tasty and small. The treats I use are
about the size of the head of a pin. I don't think you can cut heart
that small. Regardless, the volume of training treats is so small as
to be an insignificant part of the diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Quest
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:16 am ((PDT))

Wooooaaahhhh Nellie. What breed is this dog? My 60 lb boys don't
even get almost 2 lbs of food. I feed puppies at 3% or so of their
anticipated adult weight (easy to do with purebreds or identifiable
mixed breed dogs) and split that into as many meals a day as they're
going to get.

My 4 1/2 mo old puppy gets either a small chicken quarter (less than
3/4 a lb) or the thigh/back portion and I give the leg to someone else
with a handful of meat. For a while, while her teeth were coming in,
she'd frequently leave some of the long leg bone...no big deal and now
she crunches it down like a pro.

I feed mine in crates, so they hang out in their crates and clean up
their feet...but a quick wipe with a damp washcloth would do the trick
as well.

I think you handled that well. I try to always end on a positive note
with things like that, so pick your battles. AND teach your 5 yr old
not to bug the dog while he's eating. You need to do that initial
training, 'cause you have more advanced observation and reasoning
skills.

Rinse off the remaining quarters (most of the smell is surface
bacteria) and put some of 'em back in the freezer...that's what I'd
do. It's fine to continue feeding.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Cage free Egg Brown)and plain Organic Egg(white) Egglands' best
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:21 am ((PDT))

>Good question about the egg difference. I have no idea

Hi,Garaldine. I do know that Egg shell color is from different breed of chicken and,to me,I think taste similar. Only difference i can see from reading package is that brown one is sold as cage free and white one is not,but both organic;no antibiotic or hormon.

Anybody knows if dogs fed cage free Egg,their gut react differently to the Egg not cage free?

I just bought this cage free one because it looked better in package this week.

My dog has fed raw Egg before and she looves raw Egg and she had no problem with plain organic white shelled non cage free Egg while fed cagefree one with Lamb tongue,she had watery poo. It could be lamb tongue was too fatty and poo was actually from lamb not egg but I was curious if dog react differently.

>Brandy doesn't like raw egg, we're working on it.
I know that raw is best but you maybe can feed boiled Egg and then if she like it then,maybe sunny side up and the if ok,then could feed raw Egg,I am guessing.

If that did not work,you can pour Apple cidar vinegar mix with raw honey like a sauce and she may like it. I use this mix only when my dog protested not to eat and she eat whatever she is protested not to eat right away.

My dog loves Egg in any way of cooking. When I eat sunny side-up,I give some to her too and she loves it.Mostly she gets raw Egg but she likes all form of Eggs.

Even if she was resting under our bed,when I pull out the egg package and open to use Egg for my cooking,she comes right out and give me a pleading eyes.

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Feeding poultry - home grown vs store bought
Posted by: "Marion" mbldesigns@yahoo.com mbldesigns
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:43 am ((PDT))

OK thank you. Yeah these were definitely older roosters, hatched last
year, one was hatched this year, but probably 3-4 months old. The
drakes were at least a year old if not 2. So I guess it will take them
longer to eat, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to hurt the
dogs' teeth. Yes, Bernie the sheltie chewed off the knuckles and left
the center bone. Boston the lab leaves bits of bone that he doesn't
like, but much. I'll try to feed earlier so they can finish in time
for my schedule. And I have to remember to let Badger the GP out of
his pen, I forgot for about an hour today, but he has water in there,
so it wouldn't be the worst thing.

Thanks again, you all are so helpful,
Marion

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

A german shepherd. Oh wow! I had been reading puppies should get 10% of
current weight. YIKES! I hope I didn't hurt him any. He seems ok; sleeps alot
but also will play.

Someone also just emailed me and said that he shouldn't be eating the weight
bearing bones of chickens right now either, only breasts, backs, and wing
tips. But then others have told me no wings, but chicken quarters. I am so
confused.

The larger bones of the chicken quarter he cleans them but leaves them so I
pick them up--one of them he may have eaten a quarter of it. He only pooped
once yesterday and today so far (It was darker, firm--may have seen some
bone--didn't smell that great (not that it should--smelled still a little like K***le
poop) but I think it was from K***le leftovers he got from breeders on
Saturday. Not sure but so glad to see it was normal and firm but still moist.

I sure hope he is fine. I didn't hear back from anyone yet so I had already
feed him another whole chicken quarter this morning--it weighed about a pound.
So I guess by that he is done eating for the day? I am worried about him
now even though he seems okay.

Any thing I should be on the look out for if he did eat too much or might
signal an impaction?

Thanks!

Tamatha (more confused and worried now than ever)

In a message dated 7/16/2007 1:16:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
llatkinson@gmail.com writes:

Wooooaaahhhh Nellie. What breed is this dog? My 60 lb boys don't
even get almost 2 lbs of food. I feed puppies at 3% or so of their
anticipated adult weight (easy to do with purebreds or identifiable
mixed breed dogs) and split that into as many meals a day as they're
going to get.

My 4 1/2 mo old puppy gets either a small chicken quarter (less than
3/4 a lb) or the thigh/back portion and I give the leg to someone else
with a handful of meat. For a while, while her teeth were coming in,
she'd frequently leave some of the long leg bone...no big deal and now
she crunches it down like a pro.

I feed mine in crates, so they hang out in their crates and clean up
their feet...but a quick wipe with a damp washcloth would do the trick
as well.

I think you handled that well. I try to always end on a positive note
with things like that, so pick your battles. AND teach your 5 yr old
not to bug the dog while he's eating. You need to do that initial
training, 'cause you have more advanced observation and reasoning
skills.

Rinse off the remaining quarters (most of the smell is surface
bacteria) and put some of 'em back in the freezer...that'bacteria)
do. It's fine to continue feeding.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians _http://www.saveourdhttp://_ (http://www.saveourdogs.net/)
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT))

Ah, well then he's going to grow up to be a big boy. It could very
well be that he'll be eating almost 2lbs a day as an adult, in that
case, your 1.7 lbs would be an ok amount. Divide that amount you've
decided on into 3 feedings or more..not each meal <grin>. I use the
3% of anticipated adult weight 'cause then I don't have to worry about
weighing the puppy regularly, etc and adjusting amounts.

The weightbearing bones of chickens are young, hollow bones...hardly
the density of the weight bearing bone of a cow and are fine to feed.
Wings, alone are a boney proposition, but attached to the front
quarter of a chicken that you hack up yourself, are a wonderful
project for the puppy to eat.

If he's getting too much food in a meal, you'll get messy, sloppy
stools. No big deal, just cut back a little bit...maybe add a 4th
snack sized meal, ya know? Balance it out, it's not rocket science
:-)

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:23 am ((PDT))

Well, they are just full of misinformation now, aren't they! :))

The warning about weight bearing bones only pertains to those critters that
have weight to bear...you know, like a buffalo, moose, cow!!! LOL I'd be
far more afraid of wings unless attached to a larger portion of the chicken.
They are far too small and bony.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com>
>
> Someone also just emailed me and said that he shouldn't be eating the
weight
> bearing bones of chickens right now either, only breasts, backs, and wing
> tips. But then others have told me no wings, but chicken quarters. I am
so
> confused.

Messages in this topic (4)
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8d. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

Oh thank God! (Seriously) I was in tears after reading a few emails; I was
so worried about him or that I hurt my little baby.

What I did on the first day of feeding was give two chicken quarters 12 hours
between each feeding (once at 7am and the again at 8:30 pm--one chicken
quarter each time). The reason it was so long btwn feeding was b/c he wasn't
hungry the whole day--just interested in sleeping and playing--no wonder.

I am still concerned that he probably got almost his whole daily feeding in
one meal today too (one smaller chicken quarter and three gizzard pieces. I
feel so bad. I figured that most chicken quarters probably weigh a pound
anyway. So if he is supposed to get 10% of current puppy weight (17 lbs) that is
1.7 lbs for the day.

So, now that I think about it, 10% of his current weight right now is still
about what I would feed him at 2% his ideal adult weight for a male GSD (85
lbs)--he might be as big or bigger than his dad who is almost 100 but lean. So I
just need to feed him a 2-3 times a day, dividing the 1.7 lbs into 2-3 meals
for the whole day. Got it! :)

Thanks so much for the peace of mind, Sandee!

Tamatha

In a message dated 7/16/2007 2:25:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rlee@plix.com
writes:

The warning about weight bearing bones only pertains to those critters that
have weight to bear...you know, like a buffalo, moose, cow!!! LOL I'd be
far more afraid of wings unless attached to a larger portion of the chicken.
They are far too small and bony.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) LOVE it! *QUESTIONS
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

So if he is to eat a chicken quarter for example, I would divide that chicken
quarter up into small portions for the whole day? Thanks! Tamatha

In a message dated 7/16/2007 1:16:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
llatkinson@gmail.com writes:

My 4 1/2 mo old puppy gets either a small chicken quarter (less than
3/4 a lb) or the thigh/back portion and I give the leg to someone else
with a handful of meat. For a while, while her teeth were coming in,
she'd frequently leave some of the long leg bone...no big deal and now
she crunches it down like a pro.

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) LOVE it! *QUESTIONS
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:14 am ((PDT))

Keeping in mind that my puppy will be a fraction of the weight of
yours at adulthood (siberian husky female 35-40 lbs <G>), take his
full day's amount of food and divide it up into as many meals as
you're going to feed. If I have to divide a chicken quarter, for
example, I will generally give the puppy the meatier portion and give
one of the adult male dogs the bonier piece with some off-bone meat to
add up to whatever they're supposed to get...or not if I don't have
any meat thawed and I'll gone with a boneless meal the next time
around.

Not every meal has to have edible bone.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT))

Monica,

Did they check pancreatic enzymes? It does sound like some sort of
pancreatic disorder, in which case supplementing with a good digestive or
pancreatic enzyme might be worthwhile.

Regardless, raw is far easier to digest and healthier than processed
starches and sugars. I certainly wouldn't want to tax her system further by
feeding inappropriate foods.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Monica" <mommyof2gals@comcast.net>

Here's the thing. He still vomits dinner several nights a week. Some
days he is right as rain, others he seems ill (listless, whiney,
upset tummy). The vet can't find anything wrong with him but I am
terrified that he is really sick.

She suggested either switching to Evo for a while (she does support
the rawfeeding but is wondering if since his illness he needs easy to
digest food - meat without bone gives him the runs) and/or to add
digestive enzymes to see if that helps. What do you all think?

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11a. Re: training treats
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:16 pm ((PDT))

Sometimes we really do overthink things as a species. Training or other treats (just 'cause you're cute, perhaps) are one of those times. Treats, IMO, compose such a small portion of a dog's diet as to be inconsequential. I train my dogs a lot . . . well, actually, I train a lot of dogs a little. When I'm gearing up for a competition, I might train two short sessions daily with a dog. Some days I train all seven adults and the four pups for several quick sessions.
I buy whatever strikes my fancy for treats. I slice hot dogs and put a little garlic on them for treats (I'd be glad to share that info privately), freeze-dried chicken hearts, string cheese, and commercially purchased treats such as Zuke's (small size, chewy rather than crunchy) and Charlee Bears. To me, it's not a big deal. I'm feeding them as treats, not meals.

Just my .02 worth.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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12. Are slightly runny stools a problem?
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:16 pm ((PDT))

This forum is a little similar to baby groups...it's amazing how much time a bunch of grown-ups spend discussing poop! So here I go with another:

Sometimes my dog's stool is is a bit runny. That hasn't concerned me, because I figure that's just normal for him, for whatever he ate, or perhaps because he was more active/less active...who knows? We humans do not always produce perfectly uniform stools, either, and unless it is diarrhea, or chronic...it's just no big deal, and doesn't seem to be much of an issue. He seems to be just fine the next time, and I didn't think anything of it, until I started reading so many concerns. We just changed to all raw, but he has had occasional slightly runny poops since we adopted him, about two months ago. He didn't have any difficulty with crossing over from home-cooked to raw. He was eating it at least for half of his meals anyway.

Vets seem to ask even more about stools than pediatricians. So I guess my question regards dog poop in raw feeding, as well as in general...is it a health concern or indicative of a problem if a dog's stool is runny now and then? Or just something harmless that happens every now and again, and no big deal, as with humans?

Lori

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13a. Re: How much heart is too much?
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:17 pm ((PDT))

> Is it advisable to supplement a large portion of a raw diet with heart
> and tongue muscle (Maybe 3-4 meals per week)? The rest of the meals
> would be chicken and pork products with bone.

I have been feeding my Great danes 1-2 lbs of hears every day for the
last month. The rest of there ~3lb daily feed comes from Lamb, Pork,
Chicken, Turkey, Fish, Bison, Deer, anything I can find at a resonable
price.

Since I am able to find heart at very cost effective prices I am able
to buy more expensive meat to give variety.

Work the heart in slowly, it can cause bowel issues..... But once they
are use to it ;P

I feel heart is the best and cheapest way to get red meat into the diet!

-Ross
(The guy with the big heart)

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14. She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
Posted by: "mz_boomer2" mz_boomer2@yahoo.com mz_boomer2
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

Hi there,