Feed Pets Raw Food: Aug 13, 2007

Monday, August 13, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11906

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Processing Tripe
From: PAM CURL

2a. Re: 10 week old Sheltie
From: johkemp

3a. brand new member
From: Tracy Tait
3b. Re: brand new member
From: Caren OConnor

4a. Re: meat from farmers?
From: Yasuko herron
4b. Weston A. Price Foundation/Grass-fed meat (was Re: meat from farmers
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. Re: Beginning
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: Beginning
From: Alan & Andrea Southern
5c. Re: Beginning
From: temy1102
5d. Re: Beginning
From: Laurie Swanson

6.1. Re: Eggs
From: costrowski75
6.2. Re: Eggs
From: Caren OConnor
6.3. Re: Eggs
From: delcaste
6.4. Re: Eggs
From: costrowski75

7a. How do you tell if it's a food allergy?
From: temy1102
7b. Re: How do you tell if it's a food allergy?
From: Giselle
7c. Re: How do you tell if it's a food allergy?
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
From: blechatlb@aol.com
8b. Re: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
From: Pamela Picard

9a. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: blechatlb@aol.com
9b. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: carnesbill

10a. Feeding raw, second time around - intro
From: blechatlb@aol.com
10b. Re: Feeding raw, second time around - intro
From: Laurie Swanson

11a. Re: Older Dog Looking At Me Like I'm Nuts!
From: Pamela Picard

12.1. Re: new to group
From: linoleum5017

Messages
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1a. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "PAM CURL" bpcurl@verizon.net bpcurl
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

I use kitchen scissors to cut my fresh tripe. I have them sharpened
every so many months (these are not expensive scissors)
I get 2-3 stomachs at a time and I do them in my kitchen sink. Tripe is
kept in the trash bag it came in and then that is placed in a cardboard box
which fits into my sink or across it.
I have plastic shoe boxes from the dollar store. I cut the tripe up into
med-large pieces, trim off some of the extra fat if present and put them in
the box.
These boxes fit nicely in my freezer and they are reusable so not as
expensive as bags. It works well for my two Danes and one Irish Wolfhound.
I have a nice selection of knives, but the scissors really works the best
for me.
Pam Curl

Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: 10 week old Sheltie
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi Rosy,

Congratulations on your new pup. As a former Sheltie owner myself I'm
sure you will have many years of fun ahead of you.

Your pup is probably the best judge of how much she need to eat. Just
watch how she behaves after her meals. If she seems hungry give her
more next time. When feeding four or five times a day each individual
meal is really not that important. She won't have the puppy fat of a
commercial fed dog but as long as she grows steadily and her ribs are
covered you will know how she is doing.

As for the chicken necks, now is the best time to start her on them as
she is still learning to chew everything. My 9 month old stafford
chews EVERYTHING and has never choked. She is not a gulper unlike a
lot of the commercial fed dogs I know.

Good luck,

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. brand new member
Posted by: "Tracy Tait" taittracy@yahoo.com taittracy
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:14 pm ((PDT))

I just adopted a 10 year old german shepherd. How do I begin introducing her to a raw feeding diet? She eats twice a day? Can she eat liver and an egg in the morning and chicken in the evening for instance? Should I gradually ween her off the kibble? All suggestions are welcome?

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Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: brand new member
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi Tracy -
Congrats on your new addition to the family.
I've only fed raw for the past three and a half years, so there are many folks on this list far more experienced than me, but I'll share my .02 worth:)
I would not introduce egg and liver when beginning to feed raw. Both can cause loose stools. Chicken is a fair bet to introduce and I'd do so until she tolerates it well. Be prepared for her system to let you know it's adjusting to the new diet, if you know what I mean. Thereafter, I'd introduce pork, then red meat - beef and lamb and buffalo, if you can find it. Also, Rabbit is a nice transition after chicken and pork - forgot about that.
Anyway, hang on this list, e-mail with concerns and questions, but, above all, be very flexible. I consider myself to still be learning and growing in my knowledge. But, I wouldn't go back to kibble for all the tea in China:) My dogs are so healthy and their coats feel luscious. Not to mention the health of their mouths.
My meals this evening - and I vary the times at which I feed so as to keep their stomachs guessing; similar to how they would feed in the wild - were tripe, a tad of salmon, and a tad of liver. I actually try to feed liver every Sunday but missed it yesterday so made up for it today.
Please let us know how your girl progresses on raw:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Tracy Tait <taittracy@yahoo.com> wrote:
I just adopted a 10 year old german shepherd. How do I begin introducing her to a raw feeding diet? She eats twice a day? Can she eat liver and an egg in the morning and chicken in the evening for instance? Should I gradually ween her off the kibble? All suggestions are welcome?

---------------------------------
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Check out fun summer activities for kids.

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:14 pm ((PDT))

>You can also look for a "Weston Price" chapter in your area

Hi,Laurie.Thank you for the link.

I could open up VA place at link you gave me but I don't find the chapter of weston Price.I put it in search box but it came back as failed.

What am I doing wrong?

yassy

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Weston A. Price Foundation/Grass-fed meat (was Re: meat from farmers
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

Try this:

http://www.westonaprice.org/localchapters/index.html

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> I could open up VA place at link you gave me but I don't find the
chapter of weston Price.I put it in search box but it came back as
failed.
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: Beginning
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

"Patty Reid" <pattyannreidster@...> wrote:
hope to decide whether raw feeding is for us or not.
> I have standard poodles. Any suggestions on what is the best meat
to
> introduce to them?
*****
There is no question that a species appropriate diet is best for your
dogs. Usually the question really comes down to whether the human
wants to do it. So, perhaps if you tell us what's got you buffaloed
we can help.

Your dogs can start on any food you would prefer to start with; after
some research on your part, you may find you agree with many who
start with chicken. Chicken is not magic but it is cheap, available
and generally easy to eat/digest. In which case I recommend you buy
some whole birds, whack them into half pound or so hunks (with great
disregard to plan or symmetry or elegance) and feed two or three
hunks a day get yourself going.

Recommended reading:
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net (click on "recipes")

Also browse old messages. Here's how to join Yahoogroups so you can
access the Rawfeeding message archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Beginning
Posted by: "Alan & Andrea Southern" wykham@sa.chariot.net.au seawyndriana
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

When we swapped to raw for our standards we started with chicken frames and lamb shanks, with no dramas.

Alan & Andrea
KITNKABOODLE BURMESE
WYKHAM BRITISH SHORTHAIR
QUINIVA STANDARD POODLES
http://users.chariot.net.au/~wykham
Aldinga Beach
South Australia
Australia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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5c. Re: Beginning
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:33 pm ((PDT))

That is a good question, and I believe one of these things happens:

1. They swallow it.
2. They try to swallow it, it gets stuck, they spit it back up,
swallow it successfully the second time. Maybe the third time.

Like you and many other people, I have heard plenty of experiences
where dogs choked on chicken bones or got fragments stuck in their
systems. But I've heard hundreds more other experiences where that
has not happened. So I leave it to my dog's chewing expertise,
horking skills, and strong stomach acids to take care of things. My
dog could have choked on kibble, or any of the countless strange
objects she's managed to eat in her lifetime. There's a little bit of
luck involved I suppose, but mostly, I trust that because she's a dog,
she can handle this kind of dog stuff, i.e. eating raw bones, or my
swimsuit, or the sofa.

I did however start my dogs on ground mixtures first though. In my
head, it made me feel like their systems were getting used to dealing
with the bones in baby steps. I have no idea how scientifically sound
this is. Also it did nothing for their teeth, so I very quickly moved
on to whole stuff.

That's my experience, hope it helps!

Tammy & Grover

Messages in this topic (6)
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5d. Re: Beginning
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Karen,

I think you will be surprised at what they can eat. And you and the
dogs will be so happy once you all get the hang of it. Just feed big
pieces. Like probably no smaller than a quarter chicken. They can't
choke on something they can't swallow whole, and if they have to work
at their meal and get the message that they're full, they're less
likely to gulp. You can even feed bigger than that and just remove the
food when they've had enough and serve the remainder tomorrow.

Keep reading all the list posts!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kemeryes" <kemeryes@...> wrote:
I'm planning to start
> feeding my English Bull Dogs tonight. My biggest fear is if they do
> get a small chick bone in their portion--what keeps them from
> choking?

Messages in this topic (6)
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6.1. Re: Eggs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:33 pm ((PDT))

Nathalie Poulin <poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
> I cracked an egg for my dog (shell and alll) and she
> just licked it a little. She didnt' seem to like it.
> Is there a way that I can get her to eat eggs?
*****
Mix it with something she likes. Some ground meat? Tripe? Beef
heart? I recommend removing the shell for the time being and feeding
just the contents; at least til she figures out that the contents are
food.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (84)
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6.2. Re: Eggs
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

Nathalie -
I sometimes put a raw egg over tripe and my dogs lap it up. You might want to try putting it over something they really enjoy. I know I'm playing Russian Roulette, especially with the hair on the rears of my Cavaliers:), mixing a raw egg and the tripe, but sometimes I just have to throw caution to the wind:) I usually try to make this a weekend meal so my dogsitter doesn't fire me:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Nathalie Poulin <poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca> wrote:
I cracked an egg for my dog (shell and alll) and she
just licked it a little. She didnt' seem to like it.
Is there a way that I can get her to eat eggs?

Nathalie

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Messages in this topic (84)
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6.3. Re: Eggs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:27 pm ((PDT))

I wouldn't recommend
> making a habit of feeding cooked eggs, if you are cooking
> specifically for the dog. As leftovers, though, they're great.
>
> Chris Ostrowski
> Tumblehome Retrievers

Hi Chris,

My dogs love their raw egg I mix with meat & some organs but One of
them (the troublesome one) has thrown up her egg twice along with
everything else. She never did eat her egg and ate around her food. Can
I cook hers (slightly cook it)?

Silvina and the pugs with Chino

Messages in this topic (84)
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6.4. Re: Eggs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:48 pm ((PDT))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
One of
> them (the troublesome one) has thrown up her egg twice along with
> everything else. She never did eat her egg and ate around her food.
Can
> I cook hers (slightly cook it)?
*****
If you want.
While cooking may indeed be the court of last resort for some dogs, I
don't see egg as a "by hook or by crook" menu item. Now liver, liver's
a "gotta have' food, so searing and other messing about might be
justified to get it into the dog.

So I shall continue to feed eggs raw...and you can cook them if they
are important to your dog's diet. Only you can decide that.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (84)
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7a. How do you tell if it's a food allergy?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

Tod, my 13 yr. old corgi mix, has always had skin issues that were
treated with a quick-fix of steroid shots by our previous vet. Since
feeding raw for the past 4 months, he hasn't had any flare-ups, which
is pretty good considering he's spent every single summer in the past
with raw, chewed up skin covered in open sores. A few days ago
though, I saw the telltate symptoms: refusing to leave his bed; when
forced to move for walks or meals, running very quickly and
sitting/laying abruptly; movement punctuated with yelps; red inflamed
areas of skin; clawing and clambering at us to get in our laps; and
stress panting. A day after I noticed he wasn't feeling well, he
pooped out a cigarette filter. Do you think that this is a reaction
to that or does it sound like it could be a food allergy? It's been
about 5 days since the cigarette incident. I'm trying to figure out
if I should start him on an elimination diet.

Thanks for any help!

Tammy & G & T

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: How do you tell if it's a food allergy?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Tammy!
Nicotine poisoning in dogs can be fatal. Even if your dog
only ate a filter, there could be enough nicotine in it to cause
serious problems.
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_nicotine_poisoning_in_pets.html

I wouldn't start him on an elimination diet. If Tod were my dog, I'd
be very scrupulous in making sure he never has access to anything
toxic, up to and including banning smoking in my house!

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Tod, my 13 yr. old corgi mix, has always had skin issues that were
> treated with a quick-fix of steroid shots by our previous vet. Since
> feeding raw for the past 4 months, he hasn't had any flare-ups, which
> is pretty good considering he's spent every single summer in the past
> with raw, chewed up skin covered in open sores. A few days ago
> though, I saw the telltale symptoms: refusing to leave his bed; when
> forced to move for walks or meals, running very quickly and
> sitting/laying abruptly; movement punctuated with yelps; red inflamed
> areas of skin; clawing and clambering at us to get in our laps; and
> stress panting.

>>>>>>> A day after I noticed he wasn't feeling well, he
> pooped out a cigarette filter.<<<<<<<
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
> Tammy & G & T
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: How do you tell if it's a food allergy?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:51 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
>
> A day after I noticed he wasn't feeling well, he
> pooped out a cigarette filter. Do you think that this is a
reaction
> to that or does it sound like it could be a food allergy?

It's impossible to tell. It could be either of those or something
else completely different. The only way to tell if it's a food
alergy is to run an elimination diet. Done properly, an elimination
test can take 4 months and is very strict.

It is rare for a dog to have allergies to meat, bones, or organs.
It's like a cow being allergic to grass.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))

**If it were my dog I would take him off the Z/D immediately. I would not
feed him another mouthful of that stuff**
---------------------
I agree! You can't get much worse than that junk - it is awful! Not one
ingredient in it is appropriate for a dog, or much else, either.

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:23 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "melime_lalaith2012"
<white-daisey@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all, I am Amanda ( I live in Japan) and I recently rescued a Toy
> Poodle, he is 1 year old male. He was from a puppy mill, and was kept
> in a small cage with other poodles and never had a bath until he was
> rehomed with me. He was skinny and small ( still is) I was hoping to
> change his diet to raw as soon as possible so that he would gain
> weight and become well.
> > this? I would really appreciate any advice!!! ( I also have a cat who
> has been on raw food since 3 years) The dog and cat get along well,
> though they don`t play with each other, they can go for walks
> together. Thanks for reading this long post! Amanda and Pippin.
>
***
I have a poodle who also had terrible skin allergies, itchy ears,
loose stool, etc. It's the kibble. I'd do exactly as Bill says.
Pamela

Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:34 pm ((PDT))

**I had fed her a little kibble yesterday to give her something easier to
digest **------------------------------------------------------------
Steve,

??? Your statement makes no sense. Kibble is very difficult for dogs to
digest, due to all of the grains and cooked meats. Raw is MUCH easier on their
systems. Ditch the kibble!

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (9)
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9b. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi. For this part,I have question to Bill.
>
> I have heard when I was feeding kibble that you better pick 3
different brands kibble and rotate it now and then to avoid having
allegy to anything that being fed long time.
>
> Is it applied to rawfeeding too?

No, but evidently you got confused somewhere. I have never suggested
feeding chicken only except for a couple of weeks in the beginning
of raw feeding and when your dog has digestive problems that you
can't find a cause for. In that case I recommend beginning the diet
all over again from scratch.

> I mean,if one people feed just chicken,dog gets allegy problems?

Probably not but they won't get all the nutrients they need either.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Feeding raw, second time around - intro
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:36 pm ((PDT))

ELizabeth,

The hard poo is most likely from too much bone in the diet...add a bit of
organ meats and some meatier cuts of meat, like breasts and leg quarters. Why
not add some pork, duck, tripe, raw egg, beef, lamb?

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Feeding raw, second time around - intro
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi Elizabeth,

That's great that you're back to rawfeeding. Keep us posted on how
your dog does--I never get tired of the success stories. And of
course, we're here for any issues you might come upon. I would
suggest adding more meat, more variety, and a bit of organs. Chicken
is a fine start, but dogs eventually need more than that to thrive.
Beef, pork, lamb, goat, fish, rabbit, turkey, venison, eggs--anything
you can get. Don't do too much variety at once for a newbie dog,
though--keep it simple and gradually add things in while his
digestive system gets up to speed. That way you can tell what foods
he's doing well with and which he may not be ready for quite yet.
The items you mentioned are very bony and that's why you're getting
such hard, white poop. You'll probably have trouble with
constipation if you stick with that diet. You can add a whole lot of
boneless meat to supplement those items, or you can just buy meatier
parts (think whole prey, as close to nature as possible).

Veggies as treats seem to be fine for many dogs, but I'll just let
you know that my dog's chronic yeasty ears finally cleared up when I
cut out all veggies. I had already cut out all grains in the form of
treats, and that did help, but I was still feeding pureed veggies
with his raw meat and the yeastiness was still there. When we
switched to prey model and cut out veggies, all gone! We also
started homeopathy, but I feel the diet change was very important.

If you haven't already, you should read some past posts--start with
the last few days and then go from there. There's an amazing amount
of info, as you might guess, with over 9000 members! You can also
search any topic you want ("new," "newbie," "fish," etc.).

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "funder_memphis" <funder@...>
wrote:
> So what's changed in the raw world? I based Linux's raw diet off of
> chicken backs, turkey necks, and chicken leg quarters. Backs and
> necks are cheapest at my local grocery, so that's what Jaime is
> getting. For treats, both dogs get an occasional raw pork
neckbone.
>
> Do people still feed whole eggs?
>
> I noticed that this list doesn't feel veggies are necessary. What
> about veggies as treats? (Both dogs ADORE tomatoes. Honestly, they
> adore everything. They *are* Labs!)
>
> How do I deal with *really* hard poop? They're like little powdery
> rocks. Sorry to be graphic! Is it just his body getting used to
> eating real food? Anything I can do to help?

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Older Dog Looking At Me Like I'm Nuts!
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:22 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "L.Tucker" <ltucker@...> wrote:
>
> My newly adopted Greyhound has taken right to his raw chicken halves
> or quarters but my 10/11 ish terrier/hound mix doesn't know what to do
> with it. He's tried licking it to death but that's about it. I find
> it kind of comical because he's a master chewer-pulls pieces off black
> kongs and will chew old bones for hours.
> Any suggestions how I can "train" him to tackle the raw?
>
> Leanne Tucker
>
***

When I offer whole anything, my dog can't believe his luck. The first
couple of times, I played "tug" so he could get a grip and rip. After
a very short time, instinct takes over. Watch your hand!
Pamela

Messages in this topic (4)
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12.1. Re: new to group
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:55 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Gower" <pudeltime@...> wrote:
>
> Hello to all,
>
> As soon as I finish this bag of Canidae, my guys are going on raw -

****Why wait, Linda? K***le is like cardboard food. Should you wait
until you run out of cardboard? Is it the cost of the 'Can o'Die?'
Would you feed expensive cardboard to a child? If not, then why feed
it one more day to your dogs? Go for the real thing!

> My Standard Poodle, Lance, very lean 65# continued to vomit pieces
of bone even after months of the diet. Is this less of a problem with
the prey model version? I was feeding chicken backs then.

**** You may encounter some vomiting, as dogs can 'swallow large
portions' of the bones w/out ample chomping. People on this list have
made suggestions of feeding frozen whole-prey, to slow down the
impulse to swallow now, puke and rechew later. Chicken backs are
pretty bony, so you will likely fare better with more meaty meat, so
that you cannot even see the bone nestled within a great cushion of
meat.

If you insist on waiting to feed raw until you run out of k***le,
please make an effort meanwhile to browse the archives to glean good
information about which kinds of meat are best,the ratio of
meat/bone/organ that is 'natural,' how often to introduce new meats,
and which bones to avoid completely. May save on the carpet cleaning
bill, you know?

Felicitations,
Lynne

Messages in this topic (54)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11905

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Fw:: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
From: PAM CURL

2a. Older Dog Looking At Me Like I'm Nuts!
From: L.Tucker
2b. Re: Older Dog Looking At Me Like I'm Nuts!
From: Giselle
2c. Re: Older Dog Looking At Me Like I'm Nuts!
From: L.Tucker

3a. Re: dogs on and off of food
From: Andrea
3b. Re: dogs on and off of food
From: mgitaville

4a. Re: weight loss
From: natgs
4b. Re: weight loss
From: Nathalie Poulin
4c. Re: weight loss
From: Doni
4d. Re: weight loss
From: Doni
4e. Re: weight loss
From: Nathalie Poulin

5a. Re: Processing Tripe
From: doguenanny
5b. Re: Processing Tripe
From: Yasuko herron

6a. newbie ? about salmon & diarrhea
From: Louisa
6b. Re: newbie ? about salmon & diarrhea
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
From: carnesbill
7b. Re: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
From: ginny wilken

8a. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: span88888
8b. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: Nathalie Poulin
8c. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: carnesbill
8d. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: variety
From: mgitaville

10a. Beginning
From: Patty Reid

11.1. Eggs
From: Nathalie Poulin

12. Feeding raw, second time around - intro
From: funder_memphis

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. Fw:: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
Posted by: "PAM CURL" bpcurl@verizon.net bpcurl
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

> Hi Amanda,
> Just read your post and I see you give Ester C. Just a quick
> comment-- Vit C can cause loose stools. It is to be fed to bowel
> tolerance; if you have to give it at all. Perhaps you could stop
the Vit. C
> for a while and see if that helps.
> Good Luck with Pippin,
> Pam C

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Older Dog Looking At Me Like I'm Nuts!
Posted by: "L.Tucker" ltucker@sympatico.ca love_rescue_dogs
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

My newly adopted Greyhound has taken right to his raw chicken halves
or quarters but my 10/11 ish terrier/hound mix doesn't know what to do
with it. He's tried licking it to death but that's about it. I find
it kind of comical because he's a master chewer-pulls pieces off black
kongs and will chew old bones for hours.
Any suggestions how I can "train" him to tackle the raw?

Leanne Tucker

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Older Dog Looking At Me Like I'm Nuts!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:41 am ((PDT))

Hi, Leanne!
Try ribboning the meat with a knife or kitchen shears, to
leave strips attached to the main piece of meat that your dog can grab
onto and chew off.

You could also try cutting slits into the meat and rubbing Parmesan
cheese or smelly canned fish into the slits.

You could also try searing the meat quickly in a very hot frying pan
to get some enticing aroma coming odd it. Offer when cooled down a bit.

Um, you could try putting it in his 'special place' where he likes to
chew toys 'n things. Put a towel or old rug on the spot if you're
worried about stains. Take up the Kongs and old bones (what kind of
old bones?), to encourage chewing.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My newly adopted Greyhound has taken right to his raw chicken halves
> or quarters but my 10/11 ish terrier/hound mix doesn't know what to do
> with it. He's tried licking it to death but that's about it. I find
> it kind of comical because he's a master chewer-pulls pieces off black
> kongs and will chew old bones for hours.
> Any suggestions how I can "train" him to tackle the raw?
>
> Leanne Tucker
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Older Dog Looking At Me Like I'm Nuts!
Posted by: "L.Tucker" ltucker@sympatico.ca love_rescue_dogs
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

[ Take up the Kongs and old bones (what kind of
> old bones?), to encourage chewing.]

Thanks Giselle. Great suggestions. Don't worry about the old bones
they've all been thrown out. They were the pre-packaged type you can
buy at pet food stores in the frozen section. Nature's Variety
maybe? Uncooked with a bit of marrow.

Leanne Tucker
> >
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: dogs on and off of food
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

I live in Central Ca and during the summer it is rediculously hot. As
soon as the temp starts to rise my GSP, Geiger, starts to eat less.
During every other season he alternates between big meals/no meals,
meaning one day he'll eat a huge amount of food and the next eats
little or nothing, but in the summer he has no interest in gorging. He
eats once a day and most of the time he only picks at his food. He
isn't as active during the summer, so I guess he just knows he doesn't
need that much food.

You can try feeding frozen or semi-frozen meals if you feel he needs to
eat more. Both of my dogs prefer their food slightly frosty during
these hot months. Good luck.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "redwinejoy" <redwine1@...> wrote:
>
> Does the heat affect any of your dog's appetites like this? He has
> always been finicky and that is one of the reasons I got involved
> researching this to begin with.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: dogs on and off of food
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "redwinejoy" <redwine1@...> wrote:
..... I need to know if I should try some different things, cutting
meat off the bones,
> anything... or just keep offering. Thanks, Joy R.
>

******Just keep offering and if chooses not to eat put it away for the
next day. The heat can certainly change their appetites just as it can
with us humans. Having a bullmastiff that does not tolerate heat well
I see this frequently with our DC summers. I agree with the other
poster about possibly feeding partially frozen - this is not uncommon
for me to do and can help. I also try to make sure to wait an hour to
hour and a half to feed after coming in to give him plenty of time to
cool off (aka being an area rug on the tile floor) before feeding.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: weight loss
Posted by: "natgs" natgs@yahoo.com natgs
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

Hi there.

I would definitely not mix kibble and raw. They are digested
differently, which may cause problems for some dogs (e.g.,
indigestion, diarrhea).

When you were feeding only raw for two weeks, did she poop a lot or a
little? A raw-fed dog who properly digests his/her food should have
small stools that easily crumble (the stool may be a bit lose when
introducing new foods/not feeding enough bone).

Based on what I know from your post, I would fist fast your girl for
24-36 hours to clean up her system. Then start with some easily
digestible raw meals (e.g., chicken leg quarters have a good meat/bone
ratio). Monitor her poop. If too much/diarrhea comes out, then she's
not digesting her food properly, which could be the result of not
enough 'good' bacteria in her colon. If that happens, we can talk more
about what to do next.

Hope this helps,

Natalya

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nsdbernd" <nsdbernd@...> wrote:
>
>I have a great dane who seemed to do well for
> the first 2 weeks on raw. Then she stopped eating and has really lost
> some weight, and she didn't have much to spare!
> I tried to get her through this rough spot buy supplementing with some
> kibble, but now she's having major diarrhea!

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: weight loss
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:40 am ((PDT))

What kind of meat were you feeding her?
I was afraid my girl was losing a little too much
weight and I gave her a few meals of pork and now
she's looking a lot better.
Try reducing the amount of bone you give her and add
lots of meat and fat. Pork, or beef. Even goat, if you
can get it.
If you were only giving her chicken, she might be
bored of it after 2 weeks. I know my dog doesn't like
chicken too much now that i've given her pork and goat
and beef.
Once you go raw, there's really no need to substitute
with kibble. Kibble will only make things worse.
Cut the kibble out immediately. Just give her meatier
chunks of meat with fat and it should work out ok.

Nathalie

> I'm new to the raw diet. I have a great dane who
> seemed to do well for
> the first 2 weeks on raw. Then she stopped eating
> and has really lost
> some weight, and she didn't have much to spare!
> I tried to get her through this rough spot buy
> supplementing with some
> kibble, but now she's having major diarrhea!

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: weight loss
Posted by: "Doni" nsdbernd@yahoo.com nsdbernd
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Nathalie Poulin
<poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
> What kind of meat were you feeding her?
> I was afraid my girl was losing a little too much
> weight and I gave her a few meals of pork and now
> she's looking a lot better.
> Try reducing the amount of bone you give her and add
> lots of meat and fat. Pork, or beef. Even goat, if you
> can get it.
> If you were only giving her chicken, she might be
> bored of it after 2 weeks. I know my dog doesn't like
> chicken too much now that i've given her pork and goat
> and beef.
> Once you go raw, there's really no need to substitute
> with kibble. Kibble will only make things worse.
> Cut the kibble out immediately. Just give her meatier
> chunks of meat with fat and it should work out ok.
>
> Nathalie
>
> > I'm new to the raw diet. I have a great dane who
> > seemed to do well for
> > the first 2 weeks on raw. Then she stopped eating
> > and has really lost
> > some weight, and she didn't have much to spare!
> > I tried to get her through this rough spot buy
> > supplementing with some
> > kibble, but now she's having major diarrhea!
>
>
>
> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving
junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at

http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
>

I was giving her a variety, beef, pork chicken, even some turkey.
Can I do anything to increase her appetite?
Doni

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: weight loss
Posted by: "Doni" nsdbernd@yahoo.com nsdbernd
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "natgs" <natgs@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there.
>
> I would definitely not mix kibble and raw. They are digested
> differently, which may cause problems for some dogs (e.g.,
> indigestion, diarrhea).
>
> When you were feeding only raw for two weeks, did she poop a lot
or a
> little? A raw-fed dog who properly digests his/her food should have
> small stools that easily crumble (the stool may be a bit lose when
> introducing new foods/not feeding enough bone).
>
> Based on what I know from your post, I would fist fast your girl
for
> 24-36 hours to clean up her system. Then start with some easily
> digestible raw meals (e.g., chicken leg quarters have a good
meat/bone
> ratio). Monitor her poop. If too much/diarrhea comes out, then
she's
> not digesting her food properly, which could be the result of not
> enough 'good' bacteria in her colon. If that happens, we can talk
more
> about what to do next.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Natalya
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nsdbernd" <nsdbernd@> wrote:
> >
> >I have a great dane who seemed to do well for
> > the first 2 weeks on raw. Then she stopped eating and has
really lost
> > some weight, and she didn't have much to spare!
> > I tried to get her through this rough spot buy supplementing
with some
> > kibble, but now she's having major diarrhea!
>

Sorry, what's fist fast? Before she went refused the raw, her
stools were getting condensed and turned chalky after day or two.
But she is actually refusing raw right now. I'm concerned about her
weight loss, she's naturally thin, but looking rather poorly right
this moment.

Doni

Messages in this topic (10)
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4e. Re: weight loss
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))

It might also depend on where you live, if it's hot
where you are, some dogs just don't feel the need to
eat as much.
Maybe try fasting her for a day, and then feed her
closer to lunch instead of the morning after.
Start back with pork (if you know she tolerates it
well) and that might help.
How often are you feeding her? If you're feeding her
more than once a day, try feeding more in a single
meal. Some dogs feel more inclined to eat more if
they aren't sure when the next meal is coming.

Nathalie

>
> I was giving her a variety, beef, pork chicken, even
> some turkey.
> Can I do anything to increase her appetite?
> Doni
>
>

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "doguenanny" Dixie4911@aol.com doguenanny
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:33 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Penny <redpenn2003@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Frankie.
>
> Invest in a good sharp knife. You will need it for beef tripe
unless you give it to your dogues whole and let them tear it up. My
female DDB would bully my male so I choose to cut it up into
manageable pieces for myself. Then I freeze the rest in individual
large portions for later. It is a dirty job for me but the dogues
LOVE it so I suffer :0)
>
I am game for trying this out. If it means being able to feed tripe
more often, I will do it. I think I'll be able to handle it; I help
with gutting and cleaning dear when we get one, and the smell doesn't
bother me (except when I think about it being alive....then it makes
me feel bad! LOL) I don't think the cow's stomach will have the same
effect! I don't think it will be cleaned at all, I think he is just
going to take it from the cow, put it into a container, and call me.
If I have to, I'll buy some type of mask to wear. I know my dogues
love tripe, and it get's to be pretty expensive when feeding as many
as we do.

Anyway, thanks to all of you who answered my questions.

Frankie

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:11 pm ((PDT))

>> Invest in a good sharp knife

Hi.I have never seen Tripe yet but wondering if Joyce Chen scissors that everybody love for cutting anything like butter would work or not.

It is cheaper than knife;I think mine costed 20 dollars or so from amazon.com.

I don't find whole Tripe yet so,the scissor is for poultry mainly but,I am interestd in trying if this scissor cut anything everything.

Anyone tried?

yassy

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. newbie ? about salmon & diarrhea
Posted by: "Louisa" lchandler@austin.rr.com lou_losgatos
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:27 am ((PDT))

Hello, I have been feeding raw for about 2 weeks. I gave the dogs
some raw salmon yesterday and today they have diarrhea. Did I give too
much too soon? What should I feed them today since I know that they
have upset stomachs? Would chicken be alright? That is what I started
them on and it was digested easily.

Thanks for any help/advice,

Louisa C.
Austin, TX

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: newbie ? about salmon & diarrhea
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Louisa" <lchandler@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, I have been feeding raw for about 2 weeks. I gave the dogs
> some raw salmon yesterday and today they have diarrhea. Did I give
too
> much too soon?
*****
Certainly would be my guess. At this early stage, ANY amount of ANY
new protein may be too much. The most common cause of loose stools
is too much food, too much fat, too much new.

What should I feed them today since I know that they
> have upset stomachs?
*****
Nothing. If you are feeding two meals a day, skip one; if you are
feeding one meal a day, feed nothing today.

Skinless chicken would be fine to feed for the next meal. If the
loose stools continue, you might give your dogs some Slippery Elm
powder to soothe their irritated digestive system.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "melime_lalaith2012" <white-
daisey@...> wrote:
>
Hi Amanda,
If it were my dog I would take him off the Z/D immediately. I would
not feed him another mouthful of that stuff. If you look at the
ingredients list you will see it is mostly potato reminants. Not
even whole potatoes. Of course he is not gaining weight.

Do not mix bits of meat with kibble. Just drop the kibble and
start feeding meat, bones and organs. I would drop all the
supplements for now, particularly the esther C. Dogs don't need
vitamin C as they manufacture it internally.

I would feed him chicken necks and wings for a couple of weeks
until his stools firm up then start adding a new protein source each
week. I would not feed any organs for 2 months.

Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it
at http://www.rawmeatybones.com

You can download it in PDF format
for free. Just click on the picture of the book on the main page.

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: New member with IBS Toy Poodle
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:48 am ((PDT))

On Aug 13, 2007, at 7:11 AM, melime_lalaith2012 wrote:
> ... he
> was eating the Z/D, and I would try adding some new meat, just a
> teaspoon to his food, but still he became itchy and would get
> diarhea. I tried him with chicken, turkey, beef, beef heart,white
> fish, lamb and horse so far, sometimes he can tolorate a tiny bit but
> if I up the dose he will get diarhea again. so I stop because he`s
> already a very skinny dog at just 1. 4 kilos! My vet said that maybe
> I shouldn`t try again until he has put on some weight but he`s been
> on the Z/D kibble for a month now without gaining any weight. I did
> once try him with cooked beef and potatoes, and he did well for a
> week, before getting diarhea again when I changed the source of beef
> and now he can`t even eat cooked and in fact if I feed him cooked,
> the next day he`ll become weak like he can`t absorb it!!! Sorry for
> my long post! I have him on probiotics and enzymes and ester c, he
> also recently was treated with homeoapthy as stress seems to upset
> him too, like meeting large barking dogs while out on our short
> walks. Any one elses dog here has been so sensitive to protein like
> this? I would really appreciate any advice!!!

You need to get him on all raw. This is massive systemic confusion
from all the inappropriate ingredients mixed with a bit of good
stuff, and is a frequent contributor to digestive upset. I'm
surprised your homeopath did not recognize the maintaining cause of
poor diet. The little guy is fighting his food with all his energy.

Allergic reactions, if they persist once diet is fixed, are indeed a
sign of chronic weakness which homeopathy is uniquely suited to
resolve, but you may need a different practitioner. If you want to
discuss this aspect further, please take it over the Rawchat. But in
the meantime, forget the vet's recco and feed him raw. He probably
doesn't have a real problem with any of these proteins in their
natural state. He needs nothing else, just meat and bones and a bit
of organs, and he can learn to eat them and tolerate them, too, if he
is not thrown off-track by inappropriate grains and cooked,
denatured, junk food.

Let us know....

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "span88888" span88888@yahoo.com span88888
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:15 am ((PDT))

Her stool last night was dark red at the tip but was otherwise normal.
This morning, it was greenish brown which is a huge relief.

I had fed her a little kibble yesterday to give her something easier
to digest and it seems to have helped. She was full of energy today,
something I haven't seen in her in the past few weeks.

I've seen big improvements on changing to raw. Her coat doesn't smell
and feels much softer, her teeth are whiter and her breath is clean.
She even listens more. But on the negative side, she's lazier (doesn't
run as often), vomits frequently, and her stool is inconsistent. I
realize I have to be more attentive to what I feed her but it's hard
to figure out.

I also have a 4 year-old belgium sheppherd that had problems with raw
meat in the beginning but has adapted nicely.

The beagle on the other hand adapted right away, but started having
problems 2-3 months later. I have to keep her on mostly chicken
because she doesn't seem to adapt completely to anything else. And
recently, she started having problems with chicken too.

This is where I'm conflicted because from one feeding of kibble, I
noticed she was back to her old playful, energetic self. I haven't
given up on the raw diet, but I may start cooking her meat or mixing
kibble in when I feel it will help.

Thanks

Steve

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

I don't remember if you've stated this already, but
what EXACTLY are you feeding the dog?
During the week, what does the menu look like?

Nathalie

>
> I had fed her a little kibble yesterday to give her
> something easier
> to digest and it seems to have helped. She was full
> of energy today,
> something I haven't seen in her in the past few
> weeks.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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8c. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "span88888" <span88888@...> wrote:
>
> I had fed her a little kibble yesterday to give her
> something easier
> to digest and it seems to have helped.

Believe it or not meat and bones are easier to digest than kibble.
Don't go throwing in the junk stuff to try to solve problems. In
reading this post and your past posts, I don't see any serious
problem. I see more or less normal results of a relatively new raw
fed dog.

> She was full of
> energy today,
> something I haven't seen in her in the past few weeks.

Of course she is. She got a shot of sugar yesterday evening.

> But on the negative side, she's lazier (doesn't
> run as often),

Some people would see that as a positive (not as hyper).

> vomits frequently, and her stool is inconsistent.

I'm suspecting meals are too large. That could cause both of these
problems as well as bone fragments in stool.

> I realize I have to be more attentive to what I feed her but
> it's hard to figure out.

Don't worry, it a very short period of time you will feed her
without thinking twice about it. You are to uptight about it now.
Just feed her a little less and see what happens.

> The beagle on the other hand adapted right away, but started having
> problems 2-3 months later. I have to keep her on mostly chicken
> because she doesn't seem to adapt completely to anything else. And
> recently, she started having problems with chicken too.

Feed less and maybe take the skin off. I'm pretty sure one of those
two will fix that problem.

> This is where I'm conflicted because from one feeding of kibble, I
> noticed she was back to her old playful, energetic self.

Sugar

> I haven't
> given up on the raw diet, but I may start cooking her meat
> or mixing
> kibble in when I feel it will help.

Both of those "non-solutions" will do more harm than doing nothig at
all.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:08 pm ((PDT))

>> I have to keep her on mostly chicken because she doesn't seem to adapt completely to >anything else. And recently, she started having problems with chicken too.

Hi. For this part,I have question to Bill.

I have heard when I was feeding kibble that you better pick 3 different brands kibble and rotate it now and then to avoid having allegy to anything that being fed long time.

Is it applied to rawfeeding too?

I mean,if one people feed just chicken,dog gets allegy problems?

> I haven't given up on the raw diet, but I may start cooking her meat or mixing
> kibble in when I feel it will help.

If you cooking meat, you cannot give bone because cooked bone is not good to give,so,you loose nutrition value from meat itself and loose calcium source due dog cannot get to eat bone. If you cook,you need to add calcium by grinding Egg shell etc,but I think rawfeeding is much much easier and nutritious than any option you can think of.

If you mix kibble to raw meat/cooked meat,the dog's digestion system may wrecked/suffer because kibble digestion,and meat digestion is different. You may have hard also that kibbledigestion takes much longer than meat digestion.So,digesting kibble is harder than meat too like Bill told you here .

Raw feeding isreally very simple way of feeding. Stick to one protin and if dog did ok with it,move on to the other. You may need longer time on particular type of protin like me;I had problem with lamb feeding with my dog so, whenI introduced lamb,I was on lamb for about 2 weeks...,but you can always back to basic protin the dog does well on and tweek the feeding stuff with obserbation.You can solve by doing ;feeding less,cut back new protin and more well digested meat more or add more bone or get rid of fat from meat by trimming stuff or get rid of skin from meat or ..reduce bone if constipated,reduce liver/Egg if too loose poo etc..

Everyone here has good suggestion so,if you follow,you can do it.

Good luck

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: variety
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Alison Maffett <sweettuth23@...>
wrote:
>
> Right now I only feed my dogs pork, turkey, liver, beef heart and
just started feeding them kidney and occasionally chicken I know that
it's not the best diet for them and they need more of a variety. I
plan on ordering from a co-op every month if I add fish and alternate
between goat and lamb would that be enough or would they need more of
a variety? I plan on buying mackerel for them to eat. How often do
people feed fish is once a week good? Thanks a lot, Alison
>

******You really aren't doing a bad job with variety. We all wish we
could get, could afford, could find, etc. all sorts of different
animals to feed, but that it isn't always the case. You have to
occasionally remind yourself that you are going for good variety over
time, not every week. I have some months that are solely pork,
chicken, and beef. (with organs) Do I love that? No, but there are
other times where I might have goat, deer, rabbit, duck, etc. to put
in their diets regularly depending on the deals I have gotten and
what I can dig out of the freezer. I have one that doesn't love
turkey so I feed rarely and is allergic to lamb so that takes out 2
possibilities right there.

My long winded point is to do the best you can, but not blow your
budget or drive yourself crazy trying to get variety in every week
b/c sometimes it just doesn't happen.

You didn't mention eggs - that can be another easy option. Just not
too much too soon. Some dogs can't handle them initially.

Fish not required, but if you want to feed once a week is plenty. I
haven't fed mackeral as I had a Salmon deal so can't help you there.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (13)
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________________________________________________________________________

10a. Beginning
Posted by: "Patty Reid" pattyannreidster@gmail.com pattyannreid
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:08 pm ((PDT))

Hello,
I'm new to this list & hope to decide whether raw feeding is for us or not.
I have standard poodles. Any suggestions on what is the best meat to
introduce to them?

--
Patty
www.monetstandards.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

11.1. Eggs
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

I cracked an egg for my dog (shell and alll) and she
just licked it a little. She didnt' seem to like it.
Is there a way that I can get her to eat eggs?

Nathalie

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Messages in this topic (80)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. Feeding raw, second time around - intro
Posted by: "funder_memphis" funder@gmail.com funder_memphis
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Way back in '99 I got my first Lab puppy, Linux. I bumbled along as
best I could, reading everything I could find on the internet about
dogs. Ran into raw feeding when I was looking for more natural
solutions to his recurrent ear infections and itchy skin. Back then I
had a very not progressive vet, who never even mentioned "allergies" -
I just assumed he had nasty ears because I let him swim a lot. So I
tried feeding Linux raw and he absolutely thrived on it. Ear problems
went away, skin problems went away, shiny teeth - you all know what
I'm talking about.

The years went by and I got divorced, then remarried. My current DH
is remarkably squeamish. He never could get used to the
crunch-crunch-gulp noises, he constantly complained about the chicken
in the fridge, and he flat-out refused to ever feed the dog. I was
gradually pressured into switching back to kibble. Linux's teeth got
cruddy but he stayed otherwise healthy.

Last October I found a little Lab limping down the side of the highway
and I took him home and begged to keep him. Jaime had a broken pelvis
which healed ok through crate rest. This spring, the ear infections
started. I figured the first one was a fluke, so I treated it and
kept feeding them pet-store dog food. When he got the second ear
infection, a couple weeks ago, I knew I couldn't keep on.

My new vet is young, cares a lot about her job, and is really well
educated. She's still a fairly traditional vet. Doesn't recommend
raw feeding, blah blah. She diagnosed Jaime with food allergies and
recommended some special Science Diet food for the rest of his life.
I just couldn't do it. Jaime's symptoms are identical to Linux's when
he was a young dog. And Linux was cured of his "food allergies" when
he started eating raw. So we're going back down the raw-diet path.

I bought a mini-fridge and put it in the puppy's room. Only dog meat
lives in there. It took a week for my husband to notice the little
fridge (I am 100% responsible for my dogs, for various reasons), and
when he finally saw it he agreed that he hadn't noticed the smell or
the crunching. Feeding raw is way cheaper than the vet's recommended
diet, too!

So what's changed in the raw world? I based Linux's raw diet off of
chicken backs, turkey necks, and chicken leg quarters. Backs and
necks are cheapest at my local grocery, so that's what Jaime is
getting. For treats, both dogs get an occasional raw pork neckbone.

Do people still feed whole eggs?

I noticed that this list doesn't feel veggies are necessary. What
about veggies as treats? (Both dogs ADORE tomatoes. Honestly, they
adore everything. They *are* Labs!)

How do I deal with *really* hard poop? They're like little powdery
rocks. Sorry to be graphic! Is it just his body getting used to
eating real food? Anything I can do to help?

Thanks!
-Elizabeth

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11904

There are 23 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Processing Tripe
From: Penny

2a. variety
From: Alison Maffett
2b. Re: variety
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: cmhausrath
3b. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: delcaste
3c. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: delcaste

4a. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: span88888

5a. Re: New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
From: costrowski75
5b. New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
From: Dawn Ruhl

6a. Re: kitten- Asia
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Lamb meat
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Raw and Kibble for Giselle
From: Giselle

9a. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
From: r ej

10a. Re: meat from farmers?
From: Laurie Swanson

11.1. new to group
From: Linda Gower
11.2. Re: new to group
From: Giselle
11.3. Re: new to group
From: Linda H. Gower
11.4. Re: new to group
From: Karen Swanay

12a. Re: meat from farmers?Laurie
From: diannem200400
12b. WA/OR buying group (was Re: meat from farmers?Laurie
From: Laurie Swanson

13a. weight loss
From: nsdbernd
13b. Re: weight loss
From: Andrea

14. New member with IBS Toy Poodle
From: melime_lalaith2012

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "Penny" redpenn2003@yahoo.com redpenn2003
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi Frankie.

Invest in a good sharp knife. You will need it for beef tripe unless you give it to your dogues whole and let them tear it up. My female DDB would bully my male so I choose to cut it up into manageable pieces for myself. Then I freeze the rest in individual large portions for later. It is a dirty job for me but the dogues LOVE it so I suffer :0)

My vet does hose it out before tossing it into her old pickup truck. She then will call me to see if I want any. It is not completely cleaned. There is always some yuck left inside. Yes, I have gotton the whole stomach. It is HUGE from a cow. Usually, we stand in the bed of her truck and hack some LARGE managable pieces.

If you can tackle the smell of deer tripe, well you should be just fine :0) It's just on a larger scale.

I have no special way of cutting it. I just hack away at it..... Pieces that will fit into trash bags. Then I toss the bags into my chest freezer.

HTH,

Penny

doguenanny <Dixie4911@aol.com> wrote:
.....Do you get the whole stomach? What does it look like? I really don't
know what to expect when I start cutting it up. I've gutted and
cleaned deer for the dogs, so I'm not sqeamish about this, I'm just
trying to figure out how to go about getting it all cut up and packed
away in the freezer.

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Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. variety
Posted by: "Alison Maffett" sweettuth23@yahoo.com sweettuth23
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:23 pm ((PDT))

Right now I only feed my dogs pork, turkey, liver, beef heart and just started feeding them kidney and occasionally chicken I know that it's not the best diet for them and they need more of a variety. I plan on ordering from a co-op every month if I add fish and alternate between goat and lamb would that be enough or would they need more of a variety? I plan on buying mackerel for them to eat. How often do people feed fish is once a week good? Thanks a lot, Alison

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Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: variety
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

Alison Maffett <sweettuth23@...> wrote:>
> Right now I only feed my dogs pork, turkey, liver, beef heart and
just started feeding them kidney and occasionally chicken I know that
it's not the best diet for them and they need more of a variety.
*****
"Pork and turkey and beef with a touch of chicken" is a fine menu to
start! Your efforts are commendable and I think you can cut yourself
some slack now. Really. Four different protein sources is indeed
variety.

I plan on ordering from a co-op every month if I add fish and
alternate between goat and lamb would that be enough or would they
need more of a variety?
*****
Whatever you can rotate into the menu--when you can--is great. Goat
and lamb are excellent options. Fish is not a required course but if
you like the idea of fish protein (and your dogs like the idea as
well), then feed fish. However, fish is not worth getting tied up in
knots about, so if fish flops, it's okay.

I plan on buying mackerel for them to eat. How often do people feed
fish is once a week good?
*****
Once a week is good. Never is also good.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:28 pm ((PDT))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:

> Do you think the pugs could handle oxtail bones?

"Handle" as in work on safely, sure. "Handle" as in eat completely --
well, you'd have to ask them. =)

> I can't get them whole but I've seen some cut up ones that are pretty
> big.

Are you sure you can't get them whole? Yassy's original post said she
saw them cut up in the store -- the same way I've always seen them --
but she & I have both gotten them whole just by asking the meat guy if
he had any he hadn't sliced up yet. Worth a try!! I would be VERY
reluctant to feed sliced oxtail to any dog bigger than ... maybe a
Chihuahua.

> I would
> give the smaller pieces to the pittie.

I wouldn't! Remember, big dogs need big meals. Your pit would most
likely just gulp these pieces down without a thought -- but remember,
there's a hunk of bone in the middle. Not the best thing to go
swallowing whole.

Go for whole, unsliced oxtail -- if you absolutely can't get it, then
*maybe* you can find a piece big enough for the pit, but more likely
you'll have to give the big pieces to the pugs; I don't know what you'd
do with the small pieces, but I wouldn't feed them. FWIW.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
>
> i'm not sandy, but if i were you, i'd feed the bigger pieces to the
> pit and the smaller pieces to the pugs.

tammy & grover

oops, sorry tammy but I guess the pittie gets the big stuff :)
Thanks.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...>
wrote:
>
> "delcaste" <delcaste@> wrote:
>
> > Do you think the pugs could handle oxtail bones?
>
>
> "Handle" as in work on safely, sure. "Handle" as in eat
completely --
> well, you'd have to ask them. =)

>
> -- sandy & griffin

Hello, Sandy

Well, I'm going to have to skip oxtail. I have asked if I could get
the whole tail and they don't/won't give it to me whole just cut up.
My pugs are gulpers (especially one of them). Maybe I can ask them to
give it to me in half then the pit can have both since he likes to
chew.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "span88888" span88888@yahoo.com span88888
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:43 pm ((PDT))

> You mean dot in poo or quitered in poo? If it were dotted red,I
don't worry about it.It maybe from bone marrow stuff.

She usually goes 2 times a day
There were little spots of blood in the morning and then in the
evening the poo was all red.

> Poo being black maybe from organ if you fed or just being dark
colored poo,it is from pork.

I didn't give any organs in the last 3 days.
I tried to give her beef kidney but she refused it. It was the first
time she refused anything I give her. She nibbled at it and didn't
like the taste or texture and left it alone.

> If tarry poo no matter what you feed,then,I may worry and go see vet.

It was tarry today but I'll have to wait until tonight or tomorrow to
see how it is again.

Thanks for your advice. I'll see how she is tomorrow and let you know.

Steve

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:45 pm ((PDT))

"tolearn4fun" <2learn4fun@...> wrote:
> These kittens have been fed crap-in-a-bag (not sure what the mother
> hunted and what she taught the kittens). They were spayed/neutered
> this week right before their mother was killed, so they still have
> stitches and are on limited activity. She also gave them their
first
> rabies vax. We won't be vaxing further.
>
> How do I start introducing raw food to them?
*****
My current cat come from a shelter at 12 weeks, too young for a
rabies shot! She dug into whole raw meat her first meal and never
looked back. She was so adept at eating whole meats and bones
(chicken necks, whole dressed quail, most of a wing, most of a leg)
that I suspect she may have been introduced to raw but I am only
guessing.

She has never horked a hairball; in fact after three years now the
only time she's vomited anything was ground beef (and I think that's
because she ate it too quickly). Whole beef meat and beef organs
she's a champ with. And yes, her stools are feline delights. I
clear her litter boxes (she has two) every two weeks, plus/minus.
The smell comes from urine, not poop.

I've not switched a litter, but I think you should just lay out hunks
of chicken meat or pork meat and see what happens. You might cut
into the meat hunks to make them more approachable. You might also
put out a rib-in chicken breast or perhaps a wing quarter; at room
temperature. Who know? Maybe everything will get et, maybe not.
Maybe there will be vomiting, maybe not. You have to start
somewhere. Why not start with the assumption all will go well? You
can always retreat.

If you DO get immediate approval, I highly recommend you introduce
variety as absolutely fast as you can; kittenhood is the best time to
get variety into a cat's life. FWIW, my kitten got a lamb shoulder
chop as her first meal. She whittled every last bit of meat from the
bone and nibbled the ends. No upset tummy, no nuttin'.

You probably should join RawCat:
Post message: rawcat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawcat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: rawcat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

I recommend you check out rawfedcats as well.
<http://www.rawfedcats.org/index.htm>

Bon boyage!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:59 am ((PDT))

Hey Lori,
It is much easier to switch kittens to raw than older cats. I know
this first hand.
I started out giving mine ground beef with a small amount of liver
mixed in, and
ground chicken with all the organs mixed in. Because my provisions
are all grass
fed and no grains... I didn't have to worry about depleted taurine in
the diet.
They loved it and still do.
Only one cat out of 6 got diarrhea. And it only lasted two days. I
was the big
chicken, because I didn't have anyone to tell me how to feed them.
The oldest
are now 6 & 7 years of age, and the kittens are now 2. <G>
I don't grind anything but chicken anymore. They won't eat chicken
any other way.

The litter box isn't as "mean" as it used to be. Even their urine
isn't as bad.
And only the long hair cat I have has the tendency to chuck up a hair
ball and
not as frequently as she used to. Shoot, they ALL did before I
finally switched them.
Now only she does, but not even half as often.

This site helped me out tremendously- http://www.holisticat.com/

~;*;~ Dawn ~;*;~
"There's enough for a Bull, There's enough for a Bear,
But, there's never enough for a Pig"- John P Ruhl Sr.
http://www.dawnofthedanes.com
~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~
Posted by: "tolearn4fun" Posted by: "tolearn4fun"
2learn4fun@comcast.net tolearn4fun
Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:08 am (PST)

We have not had cats in MANY years, but my hubby agreed to rescue two
16 week old barn kittens this afternoon whose mother was killed by a
cougar (never underestimate the power of hysterical daughters crying,
pleading and begging to their daddy).

These kittens have been fed crap-in-a-bag (not sure what the mother
hunted and what she taught the kittens). They were spayed/neutered
this week right before their mother was killed, so they still have
stitches and are on limited activity. She also gave them their first
rabies vax. We won't be vaxing further.

How do I start introducing raw food to them? I have LARGE raw food for
our huge dogs. Will raw feeding prevent hairballs and help with poop
like it does for our dogs? I will start reading through the archives
for cat things ASAP when the chaos settles down, but any advice will be
greatly appreciated.

Lori

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: kitten- Asia
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:00 pm ((PDT))

"Coco WestCoast" <cocowestcoast@...> wrote:
>
> recently adopted Asia (kitten)which is 3 months, she had first set of
> shots. I know vaccines don't always work so how do you keep pet
> healthy and virus free without shots on a raw diet?
*****
You feed her a healthy species appropriate diet and let natural
acquired immunity happen, well, naturally. You should also consider
joining Rawcat, RawChat and TruthAboutVaccines and/or Justsayno2vaccs
where in-depth vaccine and immunity discussions are legal tender. We
really can't fully address the issue on rawfeeding.

Post message: rawcat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawcat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Post message: jstsayno2vaccs@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: jstsayno2vaccs-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Post message: TruthAboutVaccines@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: TruthAboutVaccines-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Post message: rawchat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawchat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

> Also, I want to raw feed and think chicken breast would be a good
> start for both?
*****
Yes, in different amounts of course, if they both buy into the plan.
Hard to know but it's a good place to start.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Lamb meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Hi,Chris.If you order 6 way cut,you already being decided what you
get?
>
> Or you can decide which cut you want? Isit come with organs?
>
> Curious.
*****
Six-cut means a dressed lamb/goat that's been cut behind the front legs
and then again in front of the hind legs, then sawn in half from head
to tail. The result is six pieces. So far as I know, that's the
industry standard.

No head, no feet (legs below the knee/hock), no tail, no organs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Raw and Kibble for Giselle
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:20 pm ((PDT))

Well, TYVM!
Its not 'my' list, but is a very creative, well thought out
and pretty comprehensive post by another list member that I liked so
well, I started posting it when the original writer didn't. She has
given me permission to post at will, and even sent me an updated
version, which I've been using.
Its not a price argument per se, but ways to cheaply or for free!, to
source meats so that your cost of feeding raw can be very low. BTW, it
can also be used to source and add variety of protein and body parts
to your dog's diet.
Thanks again, Lis!
> where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

1) look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) you may be able to join a barter group.
4) google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) if you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8) if you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) see if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or google to see.
10) try Craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) and I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
Freecycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sams Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) definitely watch the the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) a great tip I learned here a while back â" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. see if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. and sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill (like deer)
22) you can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room
23) post a message in CarnivoreFeed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) speak to local farmers
25) also look for heart, tongue, and gizzards which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats
26) find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Hi Giselle

I really liked your feeding points for Brian.
I would be interested in your list to help with costs of feeding
raw.
Thanks
georgia gilham

> I would be interested in seeing your price argument also.
>
> Audrey Johnson
>
>
> "My Goal in Life is to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am!"

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
Posted by: "r ej" ejtwins2002@yahoo.com ejtwins2002
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:25 pm ((PDT))

i have a black lab who is 14 yrs old and has been on raw for about 3 years. within 2 weeks of starting raw, she had a total improvemenrt in her fur, teeth, odor, breath odor, ears. its the best thing we ever did for her!!
ej

Joanne Thompson <tho0123@earthlink.net> wrote:
Laeny,

I have a Giant Schnauzer that is 12.5 and has been on raw since I got
him at 18 months. He lived on a farm, prior to me getting him, and he
was killing the chickens and eating them, so off to the shelter he
went. He has perfect teeth (never been cleaned since I've had him),
terrific coat with no skin problems, and still works on our sheep and
llama farm.

Joanne Thompson
Black Diamond Kennels
Working Giant Schnauzers
Bellvue, CO 80512

> ___

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

I don't know exactly how the ranchers' co-op works, but I think it's
just a bunch of farmers that come together to sell their
product/market more easily. I did some searching for grass-fed beef
in my state and looked on the eatwild site (http://www.eatwild.com)
and found Cascade Range Beef in WA. I had contacted Cascade Range,
but their normal thing is for people to buy a half or whole cow and I
wasn't able to do that at that time. I can't remember how reasonable
those prices were. But when they had a huge order of processed meat
(big roasts, organs, ground beef) that a restaurant backed out of,
they put it out to their mailing list at $3/lb.

You can also look for a "Weston Price" chapter in your area--they
will have a list of farmers/sources for grass-fed meat (not sure how
cheap, though).

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> HI,Laurie. Ranchers co-op is something each state may have? How
did you google?
> Just put ranchers in search key word?
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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11.1. new to group
Posted by: "Linda Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:13 pm ((PDT))

Hello to all,

As soon as I finish this bag of Canidae, my guys are going on raw - this kind of raw - prey model. I tried the old style, raw plus veggies a few years ago and finally gave up in disgust. I couldn't get everyone regulated in that someone was always having diarrhea. I knew it was from the veggies, but thought I HAD to have them. Now I'm learning and know better!!!

I do have a question before I get started again. My Standard Poodle, Lance, very lean 65# continued to vomit pieces of bone even after months of the diet. Is this less of a problem with the prey model version? Without the interference of the vegetables does their stomach learn to handle the bone better? I was feeding chicken backs then.

Looking forward to learning more and more in the month remaining of ki**le.

Linda Gower - Mid-TN
Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
Chase (MP) OA, AXJ
in memory of Cocoa (70-88), Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI. (89-04)
and Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, HIC, Delta Pet Partner (97-04)
Cherish every run. RUN FOR FUN!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (53)
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11.2. Re: new to group
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Linda!
Oooh, just toss out the kibble - you really don't need to
feed the rest of *that* to your dogs......
donate it to your local animal shelter, and deduct it from your taxes.

Probably the BBV was because you were feeding TOO MUCH bone, as well
as the veggies. It does take a bit of time for a dog's digestive
system to adjust itself to dissolving bone - sometimes the bone bits
come out the other end, too. But, unless the dog's health is
compromised, they soon adapt, much as they had to adapt to eating
kibble when they were weaned from their mother's milk. Too much bone
will just be rejected by the dog's digestive system. Too much bone?
Hork it out!

Chicken backs are way too bony to feed, unless they are attached to
the rest of the chicken. : )

Think about what feeding a species appropriate raw prey model diet
means for a moment. Its what dogs would eat if they were with their
wolf cousins in the wild, right? They'd eat the entire critter,
muscle, fat, organs, skin, connective tissue, and bones - barring some
too dense bones from the larger herbivores - and those they would
crack for the marrow, if they were hungry enough.

But, most of us cannot afford to buy or source whole, undressed out
prey. So, we make do - we feed as wide a variety of animal parts from
as many protein sources as we can.

The general "newbie" rule of thumb guideline is; 80% meat - muscle,
skin, fat, connective tissue, anything, really, that isn't bone or
organ. 10% edible bone (not all bones that are fed need to be entirely
consumed) and 10% organs, half of which needs to be liver.

I'd recommend that you start with whole chickens and, depending on
your dog's sizes; feed them whole, or cut into halves or quarters.
Toss the gizzards and heart in the meals as meatymeat, feed a tiny bit
(pinky fingernail sized) of the liver with some meals.

Feed chicken for a couple weeks, until the dogs are adjusted and you
aren't seeing any problems. Add one new protein, such as turkey,
rabbit, pork, beef, lamb, fish, goat, etc. every one to two weeks. Let
their response to each new addition be your guide for how fast to
proceed to the next. Introduce new organs such as; kidney, spleen,
sweet breads, etc. after several new proteins are well accepted. Only
feed a small bit of one type of organ at several meals for a week,
then move on to another.

You can also use this as a starting point; feed each dog 2-3% of its
ideal adult weight per day. Smaller breeds, more active dogs,
gestating or lactating bitches, puppies and dogs that need to gain
weight may need as much as 4-6%. Larger or giant breeds, couch
potatoes and dogs that need to lose weight may only need 1-2%. Start
out where you think you need to be for each dog, and adjust
accordingly to what happens with each dog over a few weeks time.

FMI, I suggest you read as many messages daily as you can, search the
archives with keywords for any subject you can think of that interests
you, read the files, and post if you need answers to questions you
can't don't see.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello to all,
>
> As soon as I finish this bag of Canidae, my guys are going on raw -
this kind of raw - prey model. I tried the old style, raw plus veggies
a few years ago and finally gave up in disgust. I couldn't get
everyone regulated in that someone was always having diarrhea. I knew
it was from the veggies, but thought I HAD to have them. Now I'm
learning and know better!!!
>
> I do have a question before I get started again. My Standard Poodle,
Lance, very lean 65# continued to vomit pieces of bone even after
months of the diet. Is this less of a problem with the prey model
version? Without the interference of the vegetables does their stomach
learn to handle the bone better? I was feeding chicken backs then.
>
> Looking forward to learning more and more in the month remaining of
ki**le.
>
>
> Linda Gower - Mid-TN
> Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
> Chase (MP) OA, AXJ
> in memory of Cocoa (70-88), Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI. (89-04)
> and Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, HIC, Delta Pet Partner (97-04)
> Cherish every run. RUN FOR FUN!

Messages in this topic (53)
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11.3. Re: new to group
Posted by: "Linda H. Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:48 am ((PDT))

> Probably the BBV was because you were feeding TOO MUCH bone, as well
> as the veggies. It does take a bit of time for a dog's digestive
> system to adjust itself to dissolving bone - sometimes the bone bits
> come out the other end, too. But, unless the dog's health is
> compromised, they soon adapt, much as they had to adapt to eating
> kibble when they were weaned from their mother's milk. Too much bone
> will just be rejected by the dog's digestive system. Too much bone?
> Hork it out!
>
> Chicken backs are way too bony to feed, unless they are attached to
> the rest of the chicken. : )

Ahhhh - thanks Giselle. That makes much sense!! Okay, chicken's on the list for the next grocery run. I've got a 65# Standard poodle and a 13# mini poodle. So both ends of the spectrum - ought to be able to utilize a whole chicken pretty easily.

Thanks - I spent a couple hours last night browsing the archives. Wish I had found this list when I was trying raw before!

Linda G

Linda H. Gower
Mid TN
Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
Chase, (MP) OA, AXJ
In memory of Cocoa (who started it all)'70-'89
Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI great little buddy '89-'04
Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, Delta Pet Partner - best partner I could dream for '97-'04
RUN FOR FUN!!!!

Messages in this topic (53)
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11.4. Re: new to group
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

You can put the kibble outside, other critters will eat it or donate it to
your local shelter. Because even though it's kibble, it's better than what
shelters usually feed.

Welcome to the group

Karen

>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (53)
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12a. Re: meat from farmers?Laurie
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:46 pm ((PDT))

Laurie:

Can you tell me more about this buying group? I live east of you,
about 100 miles from Seattle. Thanks,

Dianne M.
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:

> I live in Seattle and shop primarily at the grocery stores (bigger
> stores and health food stores) and Asian markets. I joined our local
> WA/OR buying group and got a bunch of grass-fed lamb from a farmer
> through the group.

Messages in this topic (9)
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12b. WA/OR buying group (was Re: meat from farmers?Laurie
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:59 am ((PDT))

Sure, Dianne, here you go:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/wazzuor_barf/

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "diannem200400" <diannem200400@...>
wrote:
>
> Laurie:
>
> Can you tell me more about this buying group? I live east of you,
> about 100 miles from Seattle. Thanks,
>
> Dianne M.
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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13a. weight loss
Posted by: "nsdbernd" nsdbernd@yahoo.com nsdbernd
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:00 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS

hi,
I'm new to the raw diet. I have a great dane who seemed to do well for
the first 2 weeks on raw. Then she stopped eating and has really lost
some weight, and she didn't have much to spare!
I tried to get her through this rough spot buy supplementing with some
kibble, but now she's having major diarrhea!

Please help. I'm very worried about my girl!!!

Messages in this topic (5)
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13b. Re: weight loss
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:49 am ((PDT))

What have you been feeding her? Did anything change during the time
she started to refuse food? How are her stools and energy? How do you
feed her (in her crate/with other dogs, where do you go while she eats)?
When she refuses food what happens?

If there is nothing wrong with her other than she doesn't want to eat
what you give her, giving some ki**le isn't an answer. Other than the
dry stuff, what has she been eating? Sorry I don't have any answers,
just questions. We'll get to the bottom of this.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nsdbernd" <nsdbernd@...> wrote:
>
> I have a great dane who seemed to do well for the first 2 weeks on
> raw. Then she stopped eating and has really lost some weight, and
> she didn't have much to spare! I tried to get her through this rough
> spot buy supplementing with some kibble, but now she's having major
> diarrhea!

Messages in this topic (5)
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14. New member with IBS Toy Poodle
Posted by: "melime_lalaith2012" white-daisey@lapis.plala.or.jp melime_lalaith2012
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

Hi all, I am Amanda ( I live in Japan) and I recently rescued a Toy
Poodle, he is 1 year old male. He was from a puppy mill, and was kept
in a small cage with other poodles and never had a bath until he was
rehomed with me. He was skinny and small ( still is) I was hoping to
change his diet to raw as soon as possible so that he would gain
weight and become well.

He was on kibble royal canin since he was born and at first I
continued with it and wanted to gradually add raw meat to his diet. I
had noticed that he scratched alot behind the ears and would usaully
rub his face in his blanket and cry abit too while doing that. I
checked him for fleas as he was just clipped and I could see his skin
easily, I found no fleas and wondered maybe it could be an allergy to
something in his food. Sometimes he would have diarhea too.

Well ,he has been with me for 4 months now, and I tried changing his
diet and at first I seemed to see a connection between chicken meat
and his scratching, so I stopped the chicken meat, and added beef
heart to his kibble but he was still itching, so I took him to the
vets and they said he may have IBS, so they put him on Science diet
Z/D kibble and it seemed to help him, but he still didn`t put on any
weight, so I added back the beef heart and although he scratched
abit, he actually put on 100 grams within a week!! but then he had
an accident and broke his front leg, I don`t know why, maybe from the
shock but after that things changed and he seemed to get diarhea if I
tried to add the beef heart again! so I let his system rest and he
was eating the Z/D, and I would try adding some new meat, just a
teaspoon to his food, but still he became itchy and would get
diarhea. I tried him with chicken, turkey, beef, beef heart,white
fish, lamb and horse so far, sometimes he can tolorate a tiny bit but
if I up the dose he will get diarhea again. so I stop because he`s
already a very skinny dog at just 1. 4 kilos! My vet said that maybe
I shouldn`t try again until he has put on some weight but he`s been
on the Z/D kibble for a month now without gaining any weight. I did
once try him with cooked beef and potatoes, and he did well for a
week, before getting diarhea again when I changed the source of beef
and now he can`t even eat cooked and in fact if I feed him cooked,
the next day he`ll become weak like he can`t absorb it!!! Sorry for
my long post! I have him on probiotics and enzymes and ester c, he
also recently was treated with homeoapthy as stress seems to upset
him too, like meeting large barking dogs while out on our short
walks. Any one elses dog here has been so sensitive to protein like
this? I would really appreciate any advice!!! ( I also have a cat who
has been on raw food since 3 years) The dog and cat get along well,
though they don`t play with each other, they can go for walks
together. Thanks for reading this long post! Amanda and Pippin.

Messages in this topic (1)
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