[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11904

There are 23 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Processing Tripe
From: Penny

2a. variety
From: Alison Maffett
2b. Re: variety
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: cmhausrath
3b. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: delcaste
3c. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: delcaste

4a. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: span88888

5a. Re: New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
From: costrowski75
5b. New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
From: Dawn Ruhl

6a. Re: kitten- Asia
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Lamb meat
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Raw and Kibble for Giselle
From: Giselle

9a. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
From: r ej

10a. Re: meat from farmers?
From: Laurie Swanson

11.1. new to group
From: Linda Gower
11.2. Re: new to group
From: Giselle
11.3. Re: new to group
From: Linda H. Gower
11.4. Re: new to group
From: Karen Swanay

12a. Re: meat from farmers?Laurie
From: diannem200400
12b. WA/OR buying group (was Re: meat from farmers?Laurie
From: Laurie Swanson

13a. weight loss
From: nsdbernd
13b. Re: weight loss
From: Andrea

14. New member with IBS Toy Poodle
From: melime_lalaith2012

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "Penny" redpenn2003@yahoo.com redpenn2003
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi Frankie.

Invest in a good sharp knife. You will need it for beef tripe unless you give it to your dogues whole and let them tear it up. My female DDB would bully my male so I choose to cut it up into manageable pieces for myself. Then I freeze the rest in individual large portions for later. It is a dirty job for me but the dogues LOVE it so I suffer :0)

My vet does hose it out before tossing it into her old pickup truck. She then will call me to see if I want any. It is not completely cleaned. There is always some yuck left inside. Yes, I have gotton the whole stomach. It is HUGE from a cow. Usually, we stand in the bed of her truck and hack some LARGE managable pieces.

If you can tackle the smell of deer tripe, well you should be just fine :0) It's just on a larger scale.

I have no special way of cutting it. I just hack away at it..... Pieces that will fit into trash bags. Then I toss the bags into my chest freezer.

HTH,

Penny

doguenanny <Dixie4911@aol.com> wrote:
.....Do you get the whole stomach? What does it look like? I really don't
know what to expect when I start cutting it up. I've gutted and
cleaned deer for the dogs, so I'm not sqeamish about this, I'm just
trying to figure out how to go about getting it all cut up and packed
away in the freezer.

Recent Activity

107
New Members

Visit Your Group
SPONSORED LINKS

Dog health product
Diet and nutrition
Dog health
Dog health food
Dog health problem

Yahoo! TV
"The 9"
Daily count down
of top Web finds.

Green Y! Groups
Environment Groups
Find them here
connect with others.

Moderator Central
An online resource
for moderators
of Yahoo! Groups.

.

Penny Fusner
RED KNIGHTS BORDEAUX
Home of UWP, Multi CH Red Dog Ridge Beaute' Rouge TT, CGC, WDI (2)
J&T North of the Mason Dixon CGC

http://www.geocities.com/redknightsddb

Pedigree indicates what the animal "should be"
Conformation indicates what the animal "appears to be"
But Performance indicates what the animal "actually is!"

~Author Unknown~

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. variety
Posted by: "Alison Maffett" sweettuth23@yahoo.com sweettuth23
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:23 pm ((PDT))

Right now I only feed my dogs pork, turkey, liver, beef heart and just started feeding them kidney and occasionally chicken I know that it's not the best diet for them and they need more of a variety. I plan on ordering from a co-op every month if I add fish and alternate between goat and lamb would that be enough or would they need more of a variety? I plan on buying mackerel for them to eat. How often do people feed fish is once a week good? Thanks a lot, Alison

____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: variety
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

Alison Maffett <sweettuth23@...> wrote:>
> Right now I only feed my dogs pork, turkey, liver, beef heart and
just started feeding them kidney and occasionally chicken I know that
it's not the best diet for them and they need more of a variety.
*****
"Pork and turkey and beef with a touch of chicken" is a fine menu to
start! Your efforts are commendable and I think you can cut yourself
some slack now. Really. Four different protein sources is indeed
variety.

I plan on ordering from a co-op every month if I add fish and
alternate between goat and lamb would that be enough or would they
need more of a variety?
*****
Whatever you can rotate into the menu--when you can--is great. Goat
and lamb are excellent options. Fish is not a required course but if
you like the idea of fish protein (and your dogs like the idea as
well), then feed fish. However, fish is not worth getting tied up in
knots about, so if fish flops, it's okay.

I plan on buying mackerel for them to eat. How often do people feed
fish is once a week good?
*****
Once a week is good. Never is also good.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:28 pm ((PDT))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:

> Do you think the pugs could handle oxtail bones?

"Handle" as in work on safely, sure. "Handle" as in eat completely --
well, you'd have to ask them. =)

> I can't get them whole but I've seen some cut up ones that are pretty
> big.

Are you sure you can't get them whole? Yassy's original post said she
saw them cut up in the store -- the same way I've always seen them --
but she & I have both gotten them whole just by asking the meat guy if
he had any he hadn't sliced up yet. Worth a try!! I would be VERY
reluctant to feed sliced oxtail to any dog bigger than ... maybe a
Chihuahua.

> I would
> give the smaller pieces to the pittie.

I wouldn't! Remember, big dogs need big meals. Your pit would most
likely just gulp these pieces down without a thought -- but remember,
there's a hunk of bone in the middle. Not the best thing to go
swallowing whole.

Go for whole, unsliced oxtail -- if you absolutely can't get it, then
*maybe* you can find a piece big enough for the pit, but more likely
you'll have to give the big pieces to the pugs; I don't know what you'd
do with the small pieces, but I wouldn't feed them. FWIW.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
>
> i'm not sandy, but if i were you, i'd feed the bigger pieces to the
> pit and the smaller pieces to the pugs.

tammy & grover

oops, sorry tammy but I guess the pittie gets the big stuff :)
Thanks.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...>
wrote:
>
> "delcaste" <delcaste@> wrote:
>
> > Do you think the pugs could handle oxtail bones?
>
>
> "Handle" as in work on safely, sure. "Handle" as in eat
completely --
> well, you'd have to ask them. =)

>
> -- sandy & griffin

Hello, Sandy

Well, I'm going to have to skip oxtail. I have asked if I could get
the whole tail and they don't/won't give it to me whole just cut up.
My pugs are gulpers (especially one of them). Maybe I can ask them to
give it to me in half then the pit can have both since he likes to
chew.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "span88888" span88888@yahoo.com span88888
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:43 pm ((PDT))

> You mean dot in poo or quitered in poo? If it were dotted red,I
don't worry about it.It maybe from bone marrow stuff.

She usually goes 2 times a day
There were little spots of blood in the morning and then in the
evening the poo was all red.

> Poo being black maybe from organ if you fed or just being dark
colored poo,it is from pork.

I didn't give any organs in the last 3 days.
I tried to give her beef kidney but she refused it. It was the first
time she refused anything I give her. She nibbled at it and didn't
like the taste or texture and left it alone.

> If tarry poo no matter what you feed,then,I may worry and go see vet.

It was tarry today but I'll have to wait until tonight or tomorrow to
see how it is again.

Thanks for your advice. I'll see how she is tomorrow and let you know.

Steve

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:45 pm ((PDT))

"tolearn4fun" <2learn4fun@...> wrote:
> These kittens have been fed crap-in-a-bag (not sure what the mother
> hunted and what she taught the kittens). They were spayed/neutered
> this week right before their mother was killed, so they still have
> stitches and are on limited activity. She also gave them their
first
> rabies vax. We won't be vaxing further.
>
> How do I start introducing raw food to them?
*****
My current cat come from a shelter at 12 weeks, too young for a
rabies shot! She dug into whole raw meat her first meal and never
looked back. She was so adept at eating whole meats and bones
(chicken necks, whole dressed quail, most of a wing, most of a leg)
that I suspect she may have been introduced to raw but I am only
guessing.

She has never horked a hairball; in fact after three years now the
only time she's vomited anything was ground beef (and I think that's
because she ate it too quickly). Whole beef meat and beef organs
she's a champ with. And yes, her stools are feline delights. I
clear her litter boxes (she has two) every two weeks, plus/minus.
The smell comes from urine, not poop.

I've not switched a litter, but I think you should just lay out hunks
of chicken meat or pork meat and see what happens. You might cut
into the meat hunks to make them more approachable. You might also
put out a rib-in chicken breast or perhaps a wing quarter; at room
temperature. Who know? Maybe everything will get et, maybe not.
Maybe there will be vomiting, maybe not. You have to start
somewhere. Why not start with the assumption all will go well? You
can always retreat.

If you DO get immediate approval, I highly recommend you introduce
variety as absolutely fast as you can; kittenhood is the best time to
get variety into a cat's life. FWIW, my kitten got a lamb shoulder
chop as her first meal. She whittled every last bit of meat from the
bone and nibbled the ends. No upset tummy, no nuttin'.

You probably should join RawCat:
Post message: rawcat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawcat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: rawcat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

I recommend you check out rawfedcats as well.
<http://www.rawfedcats.org/index.htm>

Bon boyage!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:59 am ((PDT))

Hey Lori,
It is much easier to switch kittens to raw than older cats. I know
this first hand.
I started out giving mine ground beef with a small amount of liver
mixed in, and
ground chicken with all the organs mixed in. Because my provisions
are all grass
fed and no grains... I didn't have to worry about depleted taurine in
the diet.
They loved it and still do.
Only one cat out of 6 got diarrhea. And it only lasted two days. I
was the big
chicken, because I didn't have anyone to tell me how to feed them.
The oldest
are now 6 & 7 years of age, and the kittens are now 2. <G>
I don't grind anything but chicken anymore. They won't eat chicken
any other way.

The litter box isn't as "mean" as it used to be. Even their urine
isn't as bad.
And only the long hair cat I have has the tendency to chuck up a hair
ball and
not as frequently as she used to. Shoot, they ALL did before I
finally switched them.
Now only she does, but not even half as often.

This site helped me out tremendously- http://www.holisticat.com/

~;*;~ Dawn ~;*;~
"There's enough for a Bull, There's enough for a Bear,
But, there's never enough for a Pig"- John P Ruhl Sr.
http://www.dawnofthedanes.com
~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~
Posted by: "tolearn4fun" Posted by: "tolearn4fun"
2learn4fun@comcast.net tolearn4fun
Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:08 am (PST)

We have not had cats in MANY years, but my hubby agreed to rescue two
16 week old barn kittens this afternoon whose mother was killed by a
cougar (never underestimate the power of hysterical daughters crying,
pleading and begging to their daddy).

These kittens have been fed crap-in-a-bag (not sure what the mother
hunted and what she taught the kittens). They were spayed/neutered
this week right before their mother was killed, so they still have
stitches and are on limited activity. She also gave them their first
rabies vax. We won't be vaxing further.

How do I start introducing raw food to them? I have LARGE raw food for
our huge dogs. Will raw feeding prevent hairballs and help with poop
like it does for our dogs? I will start reading through the archives
for cat things ASAP when the chaos settles down, but any advice will be
greatly appreciated.

Lori

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: kitten- Asia
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:00 pm ((PDT))

"Coco WestCoast" <cocowestcoast@...> wrote:
>
> recently adopted Asia (kitten)which is 3 months, she had first set of
> shots. I know vaccines don't always work so how do you keep pet
> healthy and virus free without shots on a raw diet?
*****
You feed her a healthy species appropriate diet and let natural
acquired immunity happen, well, naturally. You should also consider
joining Rawcat, RawChat and TruthAboutVaccines and/or Justsayno2vaccs
where in-depth vaccine and immunity discussions are legal tender. We
really can't fully address the issue on rawfeeding.

Post message: rawcat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawcat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Post message: jstsayno2vaccs@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: jstsayno2vaccs-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Post message: TruthAboutVaccines@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: TruthAboutVaccines-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Post message: rawchat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawchat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

> Also, I want to raw feed and think chicken breast would be a good
> start for both?
*****
Yes, in different amounts of course, if they both buy into the plan.
Hard to know but it's a good place to start.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Lamb meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Hi,Chris.If you order 6 way cut,you already being decided what you
get?
>
> Or you can decide which cut you want? Isit come with organs?
>
> Curious.
*****
Six-cut means a dressed lamb/goat that's been cut behind the front legs
and then again in front of the hind legs, then sawn in half from head
to tail. The result is six pieces. So far as I know, that's the
industry standard.

No head, no feet (legs below the knee/hock), no tail, no organs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Raw and Kibble for Giselle
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:20 pm ((PDT))

Well, TYVM!
Its not 'my' list, but is a very creative, well thought out
and pretty comprehensive post by another list member that I liked so
well, I started posting it when the original writer didn't. She has
given me permission to post at will, and even sent me an updated
version, which I've been using.
Its not a price argument per se, but ways to cheaply or for free!, to
source meats so that your cost of feeding raw can be very low. BTW, it
can also be used to source and add variety of protein and body parts
to your dog's diet.
Thanks again, Lis!
> where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

1) look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) you may be able to join a barter group.
4) google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) if you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8) if you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) see if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or google to see.
10) try Craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) and I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
Freecycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sams Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) definitely watch the the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) a great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. see if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. and sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill (like deer)
22) you can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room
23) post a message in CarnivoreFeed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) speak to local farmers
25) also look for heart, tongue, and gizzards which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats
26) find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Hi Giselle

I really liked your feeding points for Brian.
I would be interested in your list to help with costs of feeding
raw.
Thanks
georgia gilham

> I would be interested in seeing your price argument also.
>
> Audrey Johnson
>
>
> "My Goal in Life is to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am!"

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
Posted by: "r ej" ejtwins2002@yahoo.com ejtwins2002
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:25 pm ((PDT))

i have a black lab who is 14 yrs old and has been on raw for about 3 years. within 2 weeks of starting raw, she had a total improvemenrt in her fur, teeth, odor, breath odor, ears. its the best thing we ever did for her!!
ej

Joanne Thompson <tho0123@earthlink.net> wrote:
Laeny,

I have a Giant Schnauzer that is 12.5 and has been on raw since I got
him at 18 months. He lived on a farm, prior to me getting him, and he
was killing the chickens and eating them, so off to the shelter he
went. He has perfect teeth (never been cleaned since I've had him),
terrific coat with no skin problems, and still works on our sheep and
llama farm.

Joanne Thompson
Black Diamond Kennels
Working Giant Schnauzers
Bellvue, CO 80512

> ___

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

I don't know exactly how the ranchers' co-op works, but I think it's
just a bunch of farmers that come together to sell their
product/market more easily. I did some searching for grass-fed beef
in my state and looked on the eatwild site (http://www.eatwild.com)
and found Cascade Range Beef in WA. I had contacted Cascade Range,
but their normal thing is for people to buy a half or whole cow and I
wasn't able to do that at that time. I can't remember how reasonable
those prices were. But when they had a huge order of processed meat
(big roasts, organs, ground beef) that a restaurant backed out of,
they put it out to their mailing list at $3/lb.

You can also look for a "Weston Price" chapter in your area--they
will have a list of farmers/sources for grass-fed meat (not sure how
cheap, though).

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> HI,Laurie. Ranchers co-op is something each state may have? How
did you google?
> Just put ranchers in search key word?
>

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11.1. new to group
Posted by: "Linda Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:13 pm ((PDT))

Hello to all,

As soon as I finish this bag of Canidae, my guys are going on raw - this kind of raw - prey model. I tried the old style, raw plus veggies a few years ago and finally gave up in disgust. I couldn't get everyone regulated in that someone was always having diarrhea. I knew it was from the veggies, but thought I HAD to have them. Now I'm learning and know better!!!

I do have a question before I get started again. My Standard Poodle, Lance, very lean 65# continued to vomit pieces of bone even after months of the diet. Is this less of a problem with the prey model version? Without the interference of the vegetables does their stomach learn to handle the bone better? I was feeding chicken backs then.

Looking forward to learning more and more in the month remaining of ki**le.

Linda Gower - Mid-TN
Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
Chase (MP) OA, AXJ
in memory of Cocoa (70-88), Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI. (89-04)
and Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, HIC, Delta Pet Partner (97-04)
Cherish every run. RUN FOR FUN!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (53)
________________________________________________________________________

11.2. Re: new to group
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Linda!
Oooh, just toss out the kibble - you really don't need to
feed the rest of *that* to your dogs......
donate it to your local animal shelter, and deduct it from your taxes.

Probably the BBV was because you were feeding TOO MUCH bone, as well
as the veggies. It does take a bit of time for a dog's digestive
system to adjust itself to dissolving bone - sometimes the bone bits
come out the other end, too. But, unless the dog's health is
compromised, they soon adapt, much as they had to adapt to eating
kibble when they were weaned from their mother's milk. Too much bone
will just be rejected by the dog's digestive system. Too much bone?
Hork it out!

Chicken backs are way too bony to feed, unless they are attached to
the rest of the chicken. : )

Think about what feeding a species appropriate raw prey model diet
means for a moment. Its what dogs would eat if they were with their
wolf cousins in the wild, right? They'd eat the entire critter,
muscle, fat, organs, skin, connective tissue, and bones - barring some
too dense bones from the larger herbivores - and those they would
crack for the marrow, if they were hungry enough.

But, most of us cannot afford to buy or source whole, undressed out
prey. So, we make do - we feed as wide a variety of animal parts from
as many protein sources as we can.

The general "newbie" rule of thumb guideline is; 80% meat - muscle,
skin, fat, connective tissue, anything, really, that isn't bone or
organ. 10% edible bone (not all bones that are fed need to be entirely
consumed) and 10% organs, half of which needs to be liver.

I'd recommend that you start with whole chickens and, depending on
your dog's sizes; feed them whole, or cut into halves or quarters.
Toss the gizzards and heart in the meals as meatymeat, feed a tiny bit
(pinky fingernail sized) of the liver with some meals.

Feed chicken for a couple weeks, until the dogs are adjusted and you
aren't seeing any problems. Add one new protein, such as turkey,
rabbit, pork, beef, lamb, fish, goat, etc. every one to two weeks. Let
their response to each new addition be your guide for how fast to
proceed to the next. Introduce new organs such as; kidney, spleen,
sweet breads, etc. after several new proteins are well accepted. Only
feed a small bit of one type of organ at several meals for a week,
then move on to another.

You can also use this as a starting point; feed each dog 2-3% of its
ideal adult weight per day. Smaller breeds, more active dogs,
gestating or lactating bitches, puppies and dogs that need to gain
weight may need as much as 4-6%. Larger or giant breeds, couch
potatoes and dogs that need to lose weight may only need 1-2%. Start
out where you think you need to be for each dog, and adjust
accordingly to what happens with each dog over a few weeks time.

FMI, I suggest you read as many messages daily as you can, search the
archives with keywords for any subject you can think of that interests
you, read the files, and post if you need answers to questions you
can't don't see.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello to all,
>
> As soon as I finish this bag of Canidae, my guys are going on raw -
this kind of raw - prey model. I tried the old style, raw plus veggies
a few years ago and finally gave up in disgust. I couldn't get
everyone regulated in that someone was always having diarrhea. I knew
it was from the veggies, but thought I HAD to have them. Now I'm
learning and know better!!!
>
> I do have a question before I get started again. My Standard Poodle,
Lance, very lean 65# continued to vomit pieces of bone even after
months of the diet. Is this less of a problem with the prey model
version? Without the interference of the vegetables does their stomach
learn to handle the bone better? I was feeding chicken backs then.
>
> Looking forward to learning more and more in the month remaining of
ki**le.
>
>
> Linda Gower - Mid-TN
> Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
> Chase (MP) OA, AXJ
> in memory of Cocoa (70-88), Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI. (89-04)
> and Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, HIC, Delta Pet Partner (97-04)
> Cherish every run. RUN FOR FUN!

Messages in this topic (53)
________________________________________________________________________

11.3. Re: new to group
Posted by: "Linda H. Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:48 am ((PDT))

> Probably the BBV was because you were feeding TOO MUCH bone, as well
> as the veggies. It does take a bit of time for a dog's digestive
> system to adjust itself to dissolving bone - sometimes the bone bits
> come out the other end, too. But, unless the dog's health is
> compromised, they soon adapt, much as they had to adapt to eating
> kibble when they were weaned from their mother's milk. Too much bone
> will just be rejected by the dog's digestive system. Too much bone?
> Hork it out!
>
> Chicken backs are way too bony to feed, unless they are attached to
> the rest of the chicken. : )

Ahhhh - thanks Giselle. That makes much sense!! Okay, chicken's on the list for the next grocery run. I've got a 65# Standard poodle and a 13# mini poodle. So both ends of the spectrum - ought to be able to utilize a whole chicken pretty easily.

Thanks - I spent a couple hours last night browsing the archives. Wish I had found this list when I was trying raw before!

Linda G

Linda H. Gower
Mid TN
Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
Chase, (MP) OA, AXJ
In memory of Cocoa (who started it all)'70-'89
Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI great little buddy '89-'04
Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, Delta Pet Partner - best partner I could dream for '97-'04
RUN FOR FUN!!!!

Messages in this topic (53)
________________________________________________________________________

11.4. Re: new to group
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

You can put the kibble outside, other critters will eat it or donate it to
your local shelter. Because even though it's kibble, it's better than what
shelters usually feed.

Welcome to the group

Karen

>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (53)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: meat from farmers?Laurie
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:46 pm ((PDT))

Laurie:

Can you tell me more about this buying group? I live east of you,
about 100 miles from Seattle. Thanks,

Dianne M.
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:

> I live in Seattle and shop primarily at the grocery stores (bigger
> stores and health food stores) and Asian markets. I joined our local
> WA/OR buying group and got a bunch of grass-fed lamb from a farmer
> through the group.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. WA/OR buying group (was Re: meat from farmers?Laurie
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:59 am ((PDT))

Sure, Dianne, here you go:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/wazzuor_barf/

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "diannem200400" <diannem200400@...>
wrote:
>
> Laurie:
>
> Can you tell me more about this buying group? I live east of you,
> about 100 miles from Seattle. Thanks,
>
> Dianne M.
>

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. weight loss
Posted by: "nsdbernd" nsdbernd@yahoo.com nsdbernd
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:00 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS

hi,
I'm new to the raw diet. I have a great dane who seemed to do well for
the first 2 weeks on raw. Then she stopped eating and has really lost
some weight, and she didn't have much to spare!
I tried to get her through this rough spot buy supplementing with some
kibble, but now she's having major diarrhea!

Please help. I'm very worried about my girl!!!

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: weight loss
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:49 am ((PDT))

What have you been feeding her? Did anything change during the time
she started to refuse food? How are her stools and energy? How do you
feed her (in her crate/with other dogs, where do you go while she eats)?
When she refuses food what happens?

If there is nothing wrong with her other than she doesn't want to eat
what you give her, giving some ki**le isn't an answer. Other than the
dry stuff, what has she been eating? Sorry I don't have any answers,
just questions. We'll get to the bottom of this.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nsdbernd" <nsdbernd@...> wrote:
>
> I have a great dane who seemed to do well for the first 2 weeks on
> raw. Then she stopped eating and has really lost some weight, and
> she didn't have much to spare! I tried to get her through this rough
> spot buy supplementing with some kibble, but now she's having major
> diarrhea!

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. New member with IBS Toy Poodle
Posted by: "melime_lalaith2012" white-daisey@lapis.plala.or.jp melime_lalaith2012
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

Hi all, I am Amanda ( I live in Japan) and I recently rescued a Toy
Poodle, he is 1 year old male. He was from a puppy mill, and was kept
in a small cage with other poodles and never had a bath until he was
rehomed with me. He was skinny and small ( still is) I was hoping to
change his diet to raw as soon as possible so that he would gain
weight and become well.

He was on kibble royal canin since he was born and at first I
continued with it and wanted to gradually add raw meat to his diet. I
had noticed that he scratched alot behind the ears and would usaully
rub his face in his blanket and cry abit too while doing that. I
checked him for fleas as he was just clipped and I could see his skin
easily, I found no fleas and wondered maybe it could be an allergy to
something in his food. Sometimes he would have diarhea too.

Well ,he has been with me for 4 months now, and I tried changing his
diet and at first I seemed to see a connection between chicken meat
and his scratching, so I stopped the chicken meat, and added beef
heart to his kibble but he was still itching, so I took him to the
vets and they said he may have IBS, so they put him on Science diet
Z/D kibble and it seemed to help him, but he still didn`t put on any
weight, so I added back the beef heart and although he scratched
abit, he actually put on 100 grams within a week!! but then he had
an accident and broke his front leg, I don`t know why, maybe from the
shock but after that things changed and he seemed to get diarhea if I
tried to add the beef heart again! so I let his system rest and he
was eating the Z/D, and I would try adding some new meat, just a
teaspoon to his food, but still he became itchy and would get
diarhea. I tried him with chicken, turkey, beef, beef heart,white
fish, lamb and horse so far, sometimes he can tolorate a tiny bit but
if I up the dose he will get diarhea again. so I stop because he`s
already a very skinny dog at just 1. 4 kilos! My vet said that maybe
I shouldn`t try again until he has put on some weight but he`s been
on the Z/D kibble for a month now without gaining any weight. I did
once try him with cooked beef and potatoes, and he did well for a
week, before getting diarhea again when I changed the source of beef
and now he can`t even eat cooked and in fact if I feed him cooked,
the next day he`ll become weak like he can`t absorb it!!! Sorry for
my long post! I have him on probiotics and enzymes and ester c, he
also recently was treated with homeoapthy as stress seems to upset
him too, like meeting large barking dogs while out on our short
walks. Any one elses dog here has been so sensitive to protein like
this? I would really appreciate any advice!!! ( I also have a cat who
has been on raw food since 3 years) The dog and cat get along well,
though they don`t play with each other, they can go for walks
together. Thanks for reading this long post! Amanda and Pippin.

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------