[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11898

There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
From: merril Woolf
1b. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
From: nwohiopma

2a. Re: Carcinoma
From: Carol
2b. Carcinoma
From: blechatlb@aol.com

3.1. Newbie
From: ive_anbio10
3.2. Re: Newbie
From: rosey031801
3.3. Re: Newbie
From: Andrea
3.4. Re: Newbie
From: cmhausrath

4.1. Re: A few questions
From: carnesbill

5a. diarrhea/Abscess/runny eyes
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Pig Feet
From: Morledzep@aol.com

7a. loose stool and vomits?
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow
7b. Re: loose stool and vomits?
From: marblekallie
7c. Re: loose stool and vomits?
From: Nathalie Poulin

8a. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
From: delcaste
8b. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8c. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Fat buildup
From: costrowski75

10. Poo Problems!
From: Sara Hawke

11a. Re: Pig Feet/Andrea
From: diannem200400

12. Rawfeeding Recipes
From: Diana Zarate

Messages
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1a. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:17 am ((PDT))

->
> My question is: does anyone have a dog who has been fed raw for 10 or
> more years, and what is the dog like, coat/teeth/ears/health in
> general? I'm curious :) and looking forward to seeing it for myself.
>
> TIA! Laeny
>

I have a whole house full of them so come on over.

No bad teeth and all healthy and active. My 15 yr old never misses our daily walks. We
free run about 5 miles and she enjoys every bit of it.
All shiny coats even though I never bath my dogs. Never needed it. No dentals. No skin
issues. Heck, I don't even know what a skin issue is.
No allergies. Never had a dog with diarreah although I have had the very rare dog hauk
up a unidentifiable thing and re-eat it before I could tell what it was.
Never had a vet visit for a food/diet related illness. Only vet visits are for rabies shots or
athletic injuries or foxtail removal from ears. Or a health certificate or health check for
pups before going to new homes.
You get the picture.

My dogs compete in canine sports at a top level. Most of the top dogs in our sports are
also raw fed. The raw fed always have the best coats too.
I would venture to say the raw fed are also happier. Nothing like a bunch of dogs all
coming home after a good hard workout and being tossed some nice big meaty bones or
tripe/egg mix then finding a good spot to eat then sleep the sleep of the truly sated.

I have a web page if you'd like to see some of my dogs. It's not very current but most of
the dogs on it are still here plus a few new ones.

Merril

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi Laeny,

My 13 y.o. Collie was switched to raw last November. He's hypothyroid
and was diagnosed with mast cell cancer 4 years ago.

His chronic dandruff went away, his coat is softer and he no longer
has bad breath. His teeth no longer have any tartar. His dry eye
went away too.

Candace and the 4 Collies

> My question is: does anyone have a dog who has been fed raw for 10 or
> more years, and what is the dog like, coat/teeth/ears/health in
> general? I'm curious :) and looking forward to seeing it for myself.
>
> TIA! Laeny
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Carcinoma
Posted by: "Carol" onejoyfulmoose@yahoo.com onejoyfulmoose
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:43 pm ((PDT))

Cindy,
I can relate to the cancer issue you are now going through. About 2
years ago we lost a male Leo to osteocarc.
Yes, there are lots that you can do to help and the raw diet works
wonderfully when dealing with a dog with cancer. You'll find that
there will be favorite foods and sometimes you'll end of cooking them
just to try and get them to eat (I know, it's no longer raw then, but
meats are so important to keep strength up, that you'll do whatever it
tatakes and give whatever they'll eat even if you have to feed them by
hahand off your own plate. We did.)
If you go to the website for Millie's Millions. They are a support
group for owners whose dogs have cancer. They have several links on
dealing with the cancer, 2 of them are vets from Metro Animal Hospital
in Ohio. They are both wonderful people and the 1 is homeopathic and
he has wonderful suggestions that might help you baby.

You might also want to list to the one by Kris Thut, she is my niece
and it was her dog that had the cancer.

Please feel free to e-mail me off list and I'll give you all the
support I can.

Blessings
Carol, Moose & Joy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Carcinoma
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

anyone have any thoughts that might help me convince my husband that this is
what I need to do?
------------------------------------
For one, you can let him know that grains feed cancer.

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3.1. Newbie
Posted by: "ive_anbio10" ive_anbio10@yahoo.ca ive_anbio10
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:44 pm ((PDT))

I just wanted to know, how much to expect to pay for raw food, for my
90lb Lab for one month. Which meats should I initiate with? For
chicken, should I include all the bones? He eats very fast, and I dont
know if he should be fed the bones because he would just swallow
everything whole. Lastly, what is an adequate price to pay for chicken?
(per lb or kg)

thanks Ivan

Messages in this topic (97)
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3.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:35 pm ((PDT))

Price will depend on where you are, and where you shop. MY best bargain
is chicken leg quarters at 39 a lb. but I have a smaller dog (25lbs.).
You probably want to feed half of a chicken a day or two leg quarters.
See what they cost. If he is a gulper, the more bone the better. It
slows them down. Also if you feed the meat frozen it really slows them
down. Try it. I would never go back to feeding my boy anything else. It
has been over a year and he is better than ever!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (97)
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3.3. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:36 pm ((PDT))

At first it is probably going to be more expensive for you until you
find buying groups, ethnic markets, and when the supermarkets have good
sales. If your lab is at his ideal weight, he'd eat almost 2lbs a day
(estimating 2% of weight, yours might eat more or less). I keep my
meat purchases to an average of $1/lb, so in a month you're looking at
about $60 for food. Lots of people start with chicken because it is
easy to find and generally cheaper than other meats. I have found
whole chicken on sale for $.60/lb quite often, and I stock up then.
After a couple of weeks with just chicken, you and your boy will be
more acclimated to raw feeding and will be ready to go onto another
protein source (turkey, pork, etc).

If your boy is a gulper the best way to keep him safe from swallowing
stuff whole is to feed him things he couldn't possibly swalow whole.
I'd start with feeding half chickens instead of chicken quarters if you
are concerned. Stay away from small things like necks, or wings that
have been removed from the rest of the bird, they are just the right
size to swallow whole.

Hope this helps, let us know if there are more questions.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...>
wrote:
>
> I just wanted to know, how much to expect to pay for raw food, for my
> 90lb Lab for one month. Which meats should I initiate with? For
> chicken, should I include all the bones? He eats very fast, and I
> dont know if he should be fed the bones because he would just swallow
> everything whole.

Messages in this topic (97)
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3.4. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:43 am ((PDT))

"ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...> wrote:

> I just wanted to know, how much to expect to pay for raw food, for my
> 90lb Lab for one month.

As a general guideline -- subject to adjustment later, as you see how
your dog does -- most dogs need to eat about 2-3% of their ideal adult
body weight per day. For your 90# lab, that might be something like 2#
a day. My personal price goal -- which I think is shared by many here -
- is $1 a pound. So you're looking at maybe $2 a day, $60 a month.
Probably you can do better than that for price as you develop some
sources, but it's a starting point.

> Which meats should I initiate with?

Most people find chicken easy to start with -- soft bones, easy for the
dog to chew & digest, easy to find in stores, and inexpensive.

> For
> chicken, should I include all the bones? He eats very fast, and I
dont
> know if he should be fed the bones because he would just swallow
> everything whole.

You'll eventually realize that it isn't so much about feeding "bones"
and "meat" as separate things -- what you're trying to feed are
ANIMALS, whole prey to the extent possible. So instead of thinking
about feeding chicken with "all the bones," realize that you're just
feeding a chicken -- the whole kit & kaboodle. You shouldn't go out of
your way to feed EXTRA bone, because what an animal is built with is
already the right proportion. Check out the Recipes page of

http://rawfeddogs.net for pictures -- worth a thousand words -- of
potential menu items. Also on that page is a good comparison of a
meaty bone (http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhoto/32/0) versus just a bony
bone (http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipeDetail/3).

Oh, and your dog CAN'T swallow whole what he can't fit in his mouth --
hence the guideline to "feed something bigger than his head." Check it
out, from the same website: http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhoto/32/11

Make sense?

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (97)
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4.1. Re: A few questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "erica" <ericagordon@...> wrote:
>
> Also
> should I be feeding giblets? I can get a tub of them
> pretty cheap,
> but I wasn't sure if it was too early to introduce them
> (although I
> realize they count towards the meat ratio not the organ)is it too
> soon?

I think its too soon. There ARE some organs in gibblets I think.
I'm not a cook and I don't buy whole chickens so I really am not
100% sure. :)

> Also, Sophie is due for her heart worm prevention pill. Do you
> still use this commercial product?

I use heartworm prevenative every 45 days during mosquito season
(june to oct in my area).

> Last question, what do
> you use
> for flea & tic prevention?

I use FrontLine ONLY WHEN I SEE FLEAS. The last time was about a
year ago. I used it one time. The time before that was maybe 2
years earlier.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (27)
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5a. diarrhea/Abscess/runny eyes
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Eloise!
SEBP does not so much 'make diarrhea go away' as soothe the
digestive tract and provide a mucousy coating to line it to help it
recover from an episode of irritation that causes diarrhea caused by
too much new food, too much food at a meal, some food or non food item
that the dog is intolerant of, environmental stress, parasites,
disease, etc. Diarrhea can get into a vicious cycle where the dog has
diarrhea because of gastric upset, and then the irritated digestive
system causes the dog to have diarrhea.
SEBP will help return the gut to normal, to allow a change in diet or
feeding or environment to have the proper effect.
Fasting for a day, plenty of fresh water and rest and dosing with SEBP
for a day or a few days is what I'd do, along with a reevaluation of
what, how much and how I've been feeding, and if tests at the vet are
necessary for an underlying condition.
To answer your Q, I use 1 tsp SEBP to an ounce of minced or ground
chicken. I mix up several days doses at a times, and roll them into 1
ounce meatballs. I offer a dog several during a fast day and one
before each meal and at least a couple other times a day after I
reintroduce food, and for 1-2 days after that. I also keep the meals
half normal size, boneless for a day, start out with chicken, and no
organs or treats or edible chewies, and restrict access to the
outdoors without supervision, where the dog might be eating something
that is causing the upset. I add more bone, larger meals and more
variety, etc. over the period of about a week.
I get my SEBP here; http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
You can also get it in the health food store loose or in capsules.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
btw, TIA means Thanks In Advance.

> how much slippery elm would you give to help diarrhea go away? (20lb
> dog) how do you give it...is it a powder on top of food or a liquid?
> thanks
> eloise
>
> (ps I am not up on my internet lingo but I have seen this on a few
> posts...what does TIA stand for?)
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Pig Feet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:05 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/10/2007 3:32:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
diannem200400@yahoo.com writes:

I got a good deal on pig's feet, but I haven't fed them before. My
question is, do they have any nutritive value or are they just
recreational? They are about 12 inches long and look to have meat on
them, but it's hard to tell. If I fed 3 or 4 of them to a big dog,
would it be a meal, or should I just give them as fun chewie toys?

Dianne,

pig feet are mostly skin, fat, cartilage and bone, almost no meat at all, so
therefore not suitable as an entire meal. I buy pigs feet by the case and put
9 feet in a zip lock bag. and refreeze..

and then when we've had too many days of meat only or a heavy organ meal that
i think might cause some loose stools i'll thaw a bag of pigs feet and give
one to each dog.

i also find they are great for keeping puppies busy for awhile.. along with
pig masks and snouts.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (15)
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7a. loose stool and vomits?
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:14 pm ((PDT))

my dog is recently having vomits in the mornings (before his
breakfast... so i think its something from his dinner)

and having really loose stools...

he didn't have them before when we started raw feeding (about a month or
so ago.) and its just started recently.

he vomited when i woke up at around 7:30 and was kind of gagging (which
woke me up). and I see a pool of weird yellow liquid...

i didn't see any foods or raw-type material or blood or solid anything..
it smelled really weird too.

i don't know whats wrong, please help!

Kate

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: loose stool and vomits?
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi:

That yellow vomit is just bile. Sometimes my dogs do it, but not
often. I just clean it up when it happens as it hasn't shown to be
an indicator of sickness or major intolerance of food fed. Perhaps
it is a sign of minor intolerance or just and adjustment, but unless
this continues on a daily basis, I would just read it as a sign that
some adjustment in the digestion department is taking place.

As for the loose stools, either you are feeding too much, too much
organ meat, too much variety or not enough bone. So, do a Sherlock
Holmes and investigate by eliminating possible causes one by one and
you will have your answer. I have a four month old mini dachs. who
eats like the adults including doing a decent job on bones, was
switched cold turkey at 3 months and who hasn't yet had a runny poop
problem. She has vomited as you describe once or twice, as have all
my other 3 dogs, but none went off their food or appeared to be sick
because of it. Perhaps someone can explain more clearly why dogs
vomit bile.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

> my dog is recently having vomits in the mornings (before his
> breakfast... so i think its something from his dinner)
>
> and having really loose stools...
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: loose stool and vomits?
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

Do you feed him at the same time every day? If your
dog is used to eating at a specific time, and you are
feeding him later now, he might just need time to get
used to an alternating schedule.
It's like pavlov's dogs, if he's conditioned to eating
at 6:45am, and you're holding off till 7:30 or later,
his stomach is still producing acid/digestive
fluids/bile, which, if not fed, he will throw up.
As for the loose stools, maybe you're feeding him too
many organ meats, too much meat and not enough bone or
just simply not enough bone.

Nathalie

p.s. what are you feeding him and when? is he on a
very strict schedule normally?

>
> he vomited when i woke up at around 7:30 and was
> kind of gagging (which
> woke me up). and I see a pool of weird yellow
> liquid...
>

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Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:07 pm ((PDT))

> Quick question: Gave bulldog pig foot, he spent a good hour going at
> it. Is the pig foot meant to be totally ingested? What if he gnaws
> it for awhile, okay to keep in fridge for later?
>
> Thanks, Adrianne

I freeze my pig feet and give one each to the dogs as a treat or as
busy work. They love all that chewing and I've only had to pick one up
once and refrigerate for another day.

BTW, can anyone tell me if pig feet are a good source of glucosamine as
are chicken feet? Thanks!

Silvina and the pugs with Chino, the Pit
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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8b. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/10/2007 4:08:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
delcaste@yahoo.com writes:

BTW, can anyone tell me if pig feet are a good source of glucosamine as
are chicken feet? Thanks!

Silvina,

yep.. anything with lots of cartilage is a good source of glucosamine and
condroitin..

i think pound for pound chicken feet might be better, but it takes lots fewer
pigs feet to make a pound..

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (15)
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8c. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:15 pm ((PDT))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> BTW, can anyone tell me if pig feet are a good source of glucosamine
as
> are chicken feet?
*****
Since chicken feed are nothing but cartilage, they probably have more
glucosamine to offer. However, pig feet and every single other body
part than contains a joint also contain cartilage and offer
glucosamine.

I don't know if any of these natural sources provide therapeutic levels
of glucosamine though; as with Omega 3s it may be necessary to
supplement in order to get to the recommended levels.

For "maintenance" doses, the jointed bones your dog eats ought to do
the trick. Chicken feet and pig's feet included.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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9a. Re: Fat buildup
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
> Ok, thank you, so u don't think it is diet related?
*****
Nope.

I failed to mention that she is making a mess of her bed and
blankets lately and digging at my floor, could this be a symptom.
*****
You betcha!

If this is false pregnancy what do I do. Should I wait it out and
for how long?
*****
Watch and wait. I suppose she could develop an infection but I
haven't heard of it. I don't know how long. Seems like my bitch has
been in some stage of it for two months, but that may just be my
perception. Probably others will have better information for you.

Does this required a vet?
*****
Not generally, no.

If this is hormonal does that mean possibly hormones from the meat I
buy could cause this I try to go as natural as I can afford?
*****
I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I know of bitches that
have eaten grassfed/organic meats for years but have repeat false
pregnancies. I think feeding the best you can afford is fine.
Chris O

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10. Poo Problems!
Posted by: "Sara Hawke" wubbles_hannah@yahoo.co.uk wubbles_hannah
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:18 am ((PDT))

Hi, I've been feeding my 7 year old dog raw since January, and we've been having a few problems with her poo. Now and again her poo is black and runny like tar, which makes me worry she has internal bleeding? She isn't fed anything too boney at once, like chicken necks or wings, and the last time it happened, just less than a week ago, she was whinging to be let out 5 times during the night! Its cleared up now and she was pretty much the same old dog throughout so don't think she was suffering really, any ideas on this?

Also, she was constipated this morning quite badly, yet last night she only had some ox heart which was just a meaty meal, so why would she be so bound up?

I'm worried her diet is lacking something, this happens on and off and shes only ever fed chicken, beef and lamb, with the odd bit of liver, fish and egg. Also, shes been getting lamb now from early spring, yet even now when she gets it, she releases some very vile wind that gasses us out of the room! She gets it probably 2-3 times a week, so why would it still be causing wind?

Sorry for all the questions, any help would be appreciated!
Sarah

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11a. Re: Pig Feet/Andrea
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:18 am ((PDT))

For people who've seen the short feet, often cut lengthwise, in the
grocery store...I decided to ask the meat guy if he would leave the
feet whole and as long as possible and eureka, I got foot long feet.
So, it's always worth asking. I'd like to know where Cris gets those
20 inch meaty feeties.

Dianne M.
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
I've only seen the short feet (about 6" long), but I know
> that they do sell long feet that have meat and muscle from the leg
> still attached.

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12. Rawfeeding Recipes
Posted by: "Diana Zarate" zarated5@sbcglobal.net bulliegirl55
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:19 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone, I am new here and I'm willing to learn "the right way"
to raw feed. Are there any recipes or books with recipes. I want to
learn how to prepare the food before giving it to my Jade (Bulldog).
Thanks for your time.

Diana

Messages in this topic (1)
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