[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11891

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. beautiful dogs
From: Ivette Casiano

2a. Re: E vitamin
From: beaglegoose
2b. Re: E vitamin
From: Tina Berry

3a. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: Daisy Foxworth
3b. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: temy1102
3c. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: temy1102
3d. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: jmwise80
3e. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: costrowski75
3f. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: Daisy Foxworth
3g. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: ginny wilken
3h. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: swilken61
3i. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: darkstardog
3j. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: cypressbunny

4a. Re: new-many questions
From: temy1102

5a. Re: New to this
From: temy1102
5b. Re: New to this
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: Newbie who needs help
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
From: costrowski75

8a. Just started yesterday
From: lmclaen

9a. I need some help please?
From: andreadayton
9b. Re: I need some help please?
From: Laura Atkinson

10a. Re: diarrhea/Abscess/runny eyes
From: ginny wilken

11a. Re: Matisse: black stool
From: Pamela Picard
11b. Re: Matisse: black stool
From: carnesbill
11c. Re: Matisse: black stool
From: Tina Berry

Messages
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1. beautiful dogs
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 6:07 am ((PDT))

I just saw all the photo albums you post on your website. I'd like to show how beatiful my dog is after feeding raw but didn't find where to create an album. Is that not available any longer or did I not look well enough?
Thanks for the advice on feeding Slippery Elm, his diarrhea has calmed down.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: E vitamin
Posted by: "beaglegoose" Beaglegoose@aol.com beaglegoose
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Nathalie Poulin
<poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
>
> > > I am giving 8000 mg of fich oil. How muche
> > vitamin E do I add.
> > *****
> > I vote none.
> > Especially if you are feeding capsules.
> > Chris O
> >
> >
>
> I almost never post but do read most posts and I must disagree
here. I work in the health food industry (15 years) and any time you
add fish oils you MUST supplement with vitamin E. Fish oil oxidizes
very easily and will deplete your E. I would dose depending on weight
and I would also do a mixed tocopherol and tocotrienal. See study
below from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Mary, Barkley
and Boston

Fish oil and vitamin E go together
BELTSVILLE, MARYLAND. Fish oils are beneficial in the prevention of
cancer and cardiovascular disease. They do, however, oxidize very
easily and therefore add to the oxidant stress on the body. An
experiment was recently carried out by the U.S. Department of
Agriculture to see if an increased intake of vitamin E could
counteract this detrimental effect of fish oils. Forty men aged 32 to
44 were involved. The men consumed a controlled diet for a total of
28 weeks. For the first 10 weeks they received placebo oil capsules
(15 g/day), for the next 10 weeks they received fish oil capsules (15
g/day), and for the last 8 weeks they received the fish oil plus 200
mg of vitamin E (all-rac-alpha-tocopherol). The urinary excretion of
peroxidation products (malondialdehyde) more than doubled when the
fish oil capsules were introduced but then dropped by a factor of
four when vitamin E was added. The vitamin E concentration in the red
blood cells dropped very significantly when fish oil was ingested but
more than recovered with the vitamin E supplement. It is concluded
that the negative effects of fish oil consumption can be overcome by
taking them together with vitamin E.
Nair, Padmanabhan P., et al. Dietary fish oil-induced changes in the
distribution of alpha-tocopherol, retinol, and beta-carotene in
plasma, red blood cells, and platelets: modulation by vitamin E.
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 58, July 1993, pp. 98-102

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: E vitamin
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:47 am ((PDT))

"I am giving 8000 mg of fich oil. How muche vitamin E do I add. "

I agree on adding vit E to fishoil with what was mentioned, my question is
why 8000 mg to a beagle? I give my gsds (80+ lbs) 4 capsules per day @
1200mg per capsule with 1 vit E capsule 400iu. 8000 seems high for a
smaller dog - in the winter I do 2 capsules, in the spring, summer, fall I
do 4 each.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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3a. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))

> A friend made a comment and I'd like to know what you all think.
Aren't dogs evolving from their wolf level of evolution due to
domestication? Therefore, causing their digestive needs to be
different?
>
>
It is a common enough argument. Really depends what they mean by it.
I see the argument used in a way that suggests dogs suddenly developed
specific genes that other species have (e.g., turning into an omnivore
due to some sudden new ability to digest grains) rather than losing
genes which would make more sense. Their gut flora may be a little
different starting out, but only until they adapt to their natural
diet. That isn't evolution.

Daisy

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3b. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

okay i'm no science buff, but i BELIEVE that the amount of evolution
our dogs have done is considered miniscule in the large scope of
things. i look at primitive indigenous breeds that are domesticated
pets but are also sometimes living as very successful wild hunters,
and that makes me believe in raw feeding even more. on the inside,
dogs/wolves are all the same, it's just the outside we've managed to
create so much variety in.

but yea. i never got past high school biology. so correct me if i'm
wrong.

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (18)
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3c. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

i didn't meant to say your friends were trying to make $ off of
kibble-feeding, it sounds like they're very genuine and sincere. i've
recently read about the relationship between pet food companies and
vet schools, where a lot of the nutritional education is done in
seminars given by those company's representatives... not exactly
objective teachers. it means that a lot of our vets just aren't aware
that kibble is not the highest quality diet for our pets and really
believe that it's dangerous and unhealthy for us to feed raw.

i have a couple friends going through vet school right now, and i get
into similar situations with them as you do. they say things like,
"do you even KNOW what's in bones?" and i say, "things that are good
for them."

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (18)
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3d. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...>
wrote:
>
> A friend made a comment and I'd like to know what you all think.
Aren't dogs evolving from their wolf level of evolution due to
domestication? Therefore, causing their digestive needs to be
different?

******I wouldn't think so since commercial foods have only been around
since about 1860. I don't know how long it takes for something to
evolve, but in the whole scheme of things that doesn't seem like a very
long amount of time.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (18)
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3e. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:38 am ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:

> A friend made a comment and I'd like to know what you all think.
Aren't dogs evolving from their wolf level of evolution due to
domestication? Therefore, causing their digestive needs to be
different?
*****
The time frame your friend is concerned with might be adequate for
fruit flies, but for wolves, not enough time between then and now has
passed to produce the differences she suggests.

Whether one looks at evolution as slow inexorable process or as
punctuated equilibrium, genetically dogs remain wolves.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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3f. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:48 am ((PDT))

I don't know how long it takes for something to
> evolve, but in the whole scheme of things that doesn't seem like a
very
> long amount of time.
>
>
But think about what specific features they would have to have evolved
if the argument is true. To (relatively) suddenly be able to
manufacture enzymes they never produced before, specifically the
digestive enzymes that grain eaters have, seems utterly preposterous
to me. I could see their LOSING the ability to produce specific
enzymes but not suddenly to make them.

Daisy

Messages in this topic (18)
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3g. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 10:14 am ((PDT))

On Aug 8, 2007, at 5:29 AM, Ivette Casiano wrote:
> A friend made a comment and I'd like to know what you all
> think. Aren't dogs evolving from their wolf level of evolution due
> to domestication? Therefore, causing their digestive needs to be
> different?

Regardless of phenotype, dogs' digestive equipment changes only in
relative size, not in proportion or design. Add to this the fragile
nature of phenotypes - it takes only a very few generations of free
breeding to reduce all dogs to a common prototype - and wolves are
right here, right now. The genes are identical, and there is no
lasting physical change without genetic reason.

We've messed with appearance and thus to some degree function, by
breeding dogs incapable of natural birth, or with jaws which don't
meet well enough to tear meat from bone. But the farther we get from
practical function, the more tenuous are the changes. Let your
bulldogs and pugs revert, and they will return to genetic roots and
get good at what they do really quickly.

None of that changes the structure of the insides or the enzyme
profile or metabolic pathways in the least. The few "civilized"
generations in which we have been feeding dogs poorly is
inconsequential.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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3h. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 10:22 am ((PDT))

You really have to consider how long it takes evolution to change
things. And biological changes are the slowest. Part of the reason
pandas are becoming extinct is because their dietary needs are so
specific.

Even humans biology has not had major evolutionary changes since we
were hunters and gatherers. That's part of the reason why you see so
much more obesity, our biology hasn't caught up with our current excess
food/lack if exercise. We were built to store because we never had
plenty, now that we have plenty, we are still built to store.

So although our "domesitcation" can change their behavior somewhat,
because we tend to select for those individuals that have an affinity
for humans of a useful skill, their biology remains the same. Just like
Icelanders breed out of their herds those reindeer prone to wandering
off and leaving the flock.

Stephany

Messages in this topic (18)
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3i. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Daisy Foxworth" <daisyfoxworth@...>
wrote:
>
> But think about what specific features they would have to have
>evolved if the argument is true. To (relatively) suddenly be able to
> manufacture enzymes they never produced before, specifically the
> digestive enzymes that grain eaters have, seems utterly preposterous
> to me. I could see their LOSING the ability to produce specific
> enzymes but not suddenly to make them.
>

I think that's a good way to think about it.
However wolves already had carb-digesting enzymes in their gut. I don't
know if they have lost any.

Marty

Messages in this topic (18)
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3j. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 2:37 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:
>
> she claims that raw is ok, as long as I'm careful about the ratio
of calcium to magnesium -
> has anyone ever heard of this?

*** The beauty of the prey model raw diet is that everything is in
the correct proportions naturally. The published "appropriate"
calcium to magnesium ratio that I hear about lately is 2:1. With the
exception of certain amphibians, no prey animal has a ratio that
low. Rabbits, for example, are closer to 10 or 15 to 1. Therefore,
the 2:1 ratio, if it applies at all, applies only to commercial
diets.

*** Before I heard this silly 2:1 ratio thing, the published
appropriate value for magnesium was between 0.03 and 0.1% of the
diet on a dry matter basis. Whole prey typically has at least that
much magnesium, and often more. Or, if you want to go by the
book "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs", the maintenance requirement of
magnesium for adult dogs is 8.2 mg per kg body weight. So, a 22
pound dog would need 82 mg per day. If you feed 2% of body weight,
the dog would need 200 grams of food per day. 200 grams of whole
chicken contains 186 mg of magnesium, more than twice the daily
requirement.

*** Of course, all the research done on pet food is merely trying to
back engineer the appropriate diet for dogs and cats, which is whole
raw prey. So, one can spend a lot of time and money on research and
number crunching to come up with a product capable of keeping pets
alive, or one can skip that headache and feed the way nature
intended and watch the animals thrive.

*** I've done it both ways, and find option two better for me and my
pets, though I like to participate in the number-crunching game from
time to time just to keep my debating skills sharp.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (18)
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4a. Re: new-many questions
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

man.... talk about gagging.... it was all over the dogs.... all over
the walls.... it was like somebody just picked grover up and aimed her
back end like a machine gun.

fun cleanup.

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: New to this
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

approximately 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% offal, but don't get too hung up
on numbers. i think something i'm always forgetting as a relative
newbie to raw as well is that they need much less bone than you would
think, but it differs with each dog.

i use ground beef sometimes as a vehicle for medicines or as a crate
treat, stuffed and frozen in a kong. or sometimes when i have a dog
that's just starting on raw and doesn't know what to do.

tammy & grover

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5b. Re: New to this
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 10:04 am ((PDT))

>the best raw diet is based on RMBs, with some offal.

Hi,Jhon.
The dog need meaty meat with some bone+about 10% of organ.

Dog's daily intake to start as base is 2% of ideal weight.So,figure out thedog's 2% intake and figure out 10% of organ from the daily intake.That will be daily orgain intake to start with.

This is just a start point so,you can adjust by looking at your dog.

For example, my dog corgi's daily intake is about 9oz ,and 10% of that is 0.9oz but I round it up to 1oz and I usually give 0.5oz of liver,0.5oz of kidney.

Rest is meat and some bone.

Good start is chicken and,most people start from whole chicken whack it into quarter to feed appropriate portion.

Keep your dog on chicken for a week or so without organ,and if the dog get used to the raw food,then you can add next variety meat.

I kept my dog on chicken 2 weeks;first week without organ and second week with organ,and since she did good on that,I fed beef and chicken organ 3rd week.

4th week, I introduced fish;only 2 days out of 7 days I put some fish to her beef and chicken organ meal.

And since she did fine,I moved on to Turkey etc..

Good thing to remember is to be patient and be slow and add new thing only one to already getting used to.That way,you can identify what you need to reduce amount or need more work on etc..

I am keeping food journal, so that, I can look back what I fed,how much,how she reacted,how the poo was.It is just for myself. You do not need to but ,for me,it helped a lot.

This helps to start. I can look my note and can find out which fish she was not good on,like catfish,she did not eat it but she loved rolled on it and such so,I know that i remember I should not buy catfish next time.And,I know my dog loved squid so,I know it is good to buy next time if I had chance to.And perch,she torelated very very good,so,I had bought more than I normally buy and,tillapia..she had bad bad diarrhea experience and such.

When you begin the raw feeding,don't worry about adding Fish oil or Egg yet.Eventually,when you think dog can torelate them well,then add it.It is not something you must add right away.

Good thing about this feeding is,everything even out over time.

>Is there any kind of consensus on how much offal is necessary, what kinds of organs,
>how much, etc?

Usually organs are;liver,kidney and although heart is technically organ but nutrition wise,it is considered to be musscle meat so,you can feed as part of meaty meat.

I usually try to get whole birds if I can get hands on,and I feed gizzard(this is musscle meat though),liver,heart(techinically organ but feed as part of musscle meat) from birds daily alternating with 4 legged animal's organs;liver+ kidney with small amount;1oz total

As meaty meat,you can get boneless meat like roast type meat,heart,tongue

For bone variety,I sometimes get ribs,necks but no leg bones except pork feet

>Anything else I should be feeding other than RMBs and offal?

When your dog seem to get used to raw feeding,you can give Egg and Fish oil andGreen tripe(very nutrient).

How many eggs.. as much as you like i think but I give 1-2 per week.I give organic Egg that has more Omega 3 in it.

How much fish oil... I give base on 1000mg per 20 lb body weight.

I give 1 1000mg fish oil pill to my dog but my dog weigh around 30lb andneed 1.5 pills but,it is so hard to give exact amount on daily.So,I give 2 pill one day and next day I give 1 pill only andI even out the amount.

>Also, does anyone use raw minced beef by itself?

I personally stay away from grounded meat except tripe. I hear it is good to use when you need to dose your dog with med/supplement.

Hope this helps.

yassy

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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Messages in this topic (10)
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6a. Re: Newbie who needs help
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

The general guideline is to feed the dogs 2-3% of their ideal adult
weight every day. I'd start with 2% and go from there. Yes, you sould
choose one protein to start with and not add anything new until their
systems have gotten used to it. Chicken is most common to start with
because it is cheap, easy to get, and has more bone than other
animals. I'd start the pups with two meals a day if that is how they
eat now. My pup switched himself to once a day around six months, and
the new pup seems to be on the same track. Let us know if you have
more questions.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dawn_rescue" <dteuscher@...> wrote:

> I just need to start them on one meat source for a little while? I
> don't want to not feed them enough. Are there guidelines by weight
> or age? Do you still follow the feed pups twice a day and adults
> once?

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7a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

"eyed_blue" <eyed_blue@...> wrote:
>
> Hi folks, just in my first week on raw and things are going well but
> just wondered what would be the best food to introduce next?

> > I so far feed tripe, lamb(RMBS) and chicken meat without a problem.
*****
What sort of lamb rmbs do you mean? Are they lovely meaty or mostly
just bone? Since you haven't introduced whole chicken yet, that might
be your next step--broadening available body parts (including small
amounts of liver and heart maybe), instead of trying new proteins right
away. You might also lamb variety as well.
Chris O

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8a. Just started yesterday
Posted by: "lmclaen" lmclaen@yahoo.com lmclaen
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 9:20 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
Laeny,
i would give it a week before i intervened as long as it's not full
blown diarreah. if after that they continue to be sloppy i would
remove the chicken skins for a couple days and if that still doesn't
help i would move on to a different type of meat, like pork or turkey.

Catherine R.
----------------------------------------------------
Thanks Catherine, your advice is pretty much what I have been
thinking, so it's good to be validated - this is still a little scary
for me but I'm committed to it.

Laeny

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9a. I need some help please?
Posted by: "andreadayton" heler2@hotmail.com andreadayton
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 10:05 am ((PDT))

I have beed trying to find some sort of info on this but can't find a
lot. I am breeding my Bulldog and I would like to know how to feed her
and what type of meat should she be getting? Any pointers you can give
me will be appreciated.
Andrea

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9b. Re: I need some help please?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

Basically, you're going to feed her the way you would if you weren't
breeding her...except toward the end of the 2nd trimester and the 3rd
trimester, you're going to increase her food intake. Remember, you
don't want her fat...but you also are providing for the growing
puppies.

One key point is to NOT over feed bone/calcium while she's in whelp.
Uterine inertia is a primary result of too much calcium being fed
while in whelp. She will, probably, decline to eat bones during the
last couple of weeks and you may want to switch to fewer, smaller
meals to allow her to eat yet not stuff herself.

On 8/8/07, andreadayton <heler2@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have beed trying to find some sort of info on this but can't find a
> lot. I am breeding my Bulldog and I would like to know how to feed her
> and what type of meat should she be getting? Any pointers you can give
> me will be appreciated.
> Andrea

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

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10a. Re: diarrhea/Abscess/runny eyes
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

On Aug 8, 2007, at 5:19 AM, Ivette Casiano wrote:

> <<...He is definitely not getting enough nutritional value
> somehow. He just got an abscess on his paw and he's
> been having browish colored runny stuff from his eyes.
> He never had this before he started raw...>>
>
> Same thing is happening with my dog. I'm curious to see what you
> all know about this.
> His diarrhea has finally calmed down. I gave him some Slippery
> Elm, thanks all for that piece of advice, and have him just on
> chicken until I'm sure he's absolutely stable. Is it ok that I also
> gave him a raw egg, that's runny chicken.

Well, here's what I think: Allowing for severe digestive impairment,
which is pretty obvious and very chronic, there comes a point where
diet will do no more because it's the best diet already. There are
not that many variations that make a huge difference, and we have
pointed up those as they occur in posts - things like avoiding
enhanced meats, avoiding veggies, avoiding unprototypical
supplements, etc. Beyond that, a diet will allow the animal to show
its true weaknesses, as the body is relieved from the work of
fighting its food. A this point we see the true chronic impairment,
and this should be considered a very good thing, because now we have
a clear picture of the animal's dysfunction.

Should you choose to get them some help through homeopathy, you may
now have an accurate picture of the damage which needs healing. If
you do not, at the least you have eliminated one of the largest
maintaining causes or poor function, and you should not blame small
dietary or digestive excursions on the food itself. The symptoms are
the result of systems not working properly - one might even call this
a sort of "detox", in which I do not believe, because actually the
body has been liberated and is trying its best to cure itself through
pushing disease out through eyes and skin. If the symptoms do not
subside on their own eventually, you'll need to get some help
steering his energy so he can process his disease and deal with them.

If you want to take this to RawChat we can discuss it more thoroughly.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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11a. Re: Matisse: black stool
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

I am concerned. Yesterday in the a.m., he ate beef. Yesterday, scant,
black tarry stool was covered in green mucous. I was thinking this was
progress, but maybe not. Last night, he ate a couple of scrambled
eggs. Today, he is eating grass and refusing sardines, which he
usually relishes. Energy level is low. Is it time to call our
homeopath or take him to the conventional vet for x-rays? Our
homeopath always says "wait and watch;" that will be $75 please. And
our conventional vet always offers $500 diagnostics. Tomorrow will be
one week since he ate meaty bones which triggered this event. Would
more bone compound the problem if this is an obstruction? I have 30
years of cats and only 9 years with this one and only dog. TIA
Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "Pamela Picard" <pet.wellness@> wrote:
> >We recently switched to beef, increasing muscle meat and
> > organs, decreasing edible bone. He seemed to be doing very well. Three
> > days ago, after a meal of edible beef brisket bone, he had a very
> > severe attack of gastritis.
>
> <snip>
>
> > Now three days have passed. He's eating, peeing, all fine. But poo is
> > thick, tar-like, which he squeezes out like toothpaste. I would think
> > after three days, he'd have a normal, well formed stool. It's so acid,
> > his butt is all raw.
> *****
> I'm thinking this whole thing is related to too much food, or perhaps
> too much fat. Or both. Good to know he worked his way through the
> first part (I usually let it resolve itself but certainly an
> appropriate remedy was a sensible move). So, to the now part.
>
> What has he been eating between then and now? Bone? Chicken? More
> beef? Anything remotely inclined to continue producing these stools?
> My dogs all have produced, at one time or another, the stools you
> describe; the stools stop when everything is digested or a different
> sort of meal is fed. I am absolutely certain I could find in the
> barnyard right this very now several examples of black toothpaste poop,
> only dried up.
>
> If Matisse is showing no other signs of distress, I'd go for residual
> effects, myself. I think his butt is sore because he's been pooping a
> lot; 'twere me I'd be cleaning it off and applying some aloe or
> something else soothing.
>
> But if he seems to be ailing and/or if you are not comfortable with
> this--or if it just goes on and on despite a menu changes--I'd say it's
> time to visit the vet.
>
> One way or t'other, let us know what happens, okay?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Matisse: black stool
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 1:54 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Pamela Picard" <pet.wellness@...>
wrote:
>
> Is it time to call our
> homeopath or take him to the conventional vet for x-rays?

I wouldn't use a homeopath under any conditions and I don't think x-
rays are called for in this case.

As I understand it, he hasn't had any bone in a week and has had
scrambled eggs and refused sardines which he has been eating. Neither
of those are famous for making real solid stools.

I suggest going back to the basics. Start him again on chicken until
he gets stable once more. Then, just like a newly switch dog,
gradually add back different protein sources. I would wait a month
before I fed him beef and I wouldn't feed any organs for 2 months.

Once you get him stable and on a varied diet again, if you want to try
another elimination diet, do so but with a different meat than beef.
Maybe pork or chicken or turkey.

I wouldn't be too concerned about his original symptoms of iching and
skin problems right now. Lets get the digestion problem straightened
out before we go back to working on the itchies.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: Matisse: black stool
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 1:54 pm ((PDT))

"We recently switched to beef, increasing muscle meat and organs, decreasing
edible bone"

Organs and lack of bone make for tarry poop; when I'm out of bone, and only
feeding venison, my four gsds have black tarry poop unless I add bone; or if
I feed a liver meal this causes the same. If he's pooping; doesn't sound
like an obstruction; if there is no fresh blood on the stool there is no
bleeding of the anus/lining etc... bleeding internally causes black poop but
I don't worry about the black poop anymore knowing what i know now after raw
feeding for over 3 years. Organs, rich red meat, new rich meat... all cause
tarry poop.
.--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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