[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11886

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Matisse: black stool
From: Pamela Picard
1b. Re: Matisse: black stool
From: ginny wilken
1c. Re: Matisse: black stool
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: Matisse: black stool
From: johkemp

2a. Re: The theories behind veggies & fruit
From: Giselle
2b. Re: The theories behind veggies & fruit
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

3a. Re: Big dog with small appetite - needs to gain weight
From: natgs

4a. Re: Flies!!!
From: gobi_1999
4b. Re: Flies!!!
From: linoleum5017
4c. Re: Flies!!!
From: costrowski75

5a. Just started yesterday
From: lmclaen
5b. Just started yesterday
From: johkemp

6a. 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
From: brandy smolen
6b. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
From: Laura Atkinson
6c. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
From: cdhaik
6d. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
From: johkemp

7a. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
From: jmwise80

8a. Newbie question - another one
From: Brandi Bryant
8b. Re: Newbie question - another one
From: Laura Atkinson
8c. Re: Newbie question - another one
From: Nathalie Poulin

9a. pork bones
From: lhmcmaken

10a. Re: Question-5 weeks of Rawfeeding and lots of shedding
From: magolin0328

11a. Re: Lethargic pup - What is too much?
From: Naomi Bjorgan
11b. Re: Lethargic pup - What is too much?
From: costrowski75
11c. Re: Lethargic pup - What is too much?
From: Nathalie Poulin

Messages
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1a. Matisse: black stool
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 1:06 pm ((PDT))

This is a new one. My 10 year old standard poodle has been on raw for
over a year. We recently switched to beef, increasing muscle meat and
organs, decreasing edible bone. He seemed to be doing very well. Three
days ago, after a meal of edible beef brisket bone, he had a very
severe attack of gastritis. I could hear his tummy gurgling from
another room. He was acting sort of nauseous too. I gave him a
homeopathic remedy. The audible distress stopped in about half an
hour. He refused food all day, which was fine. In the evening, on our
walk. he had diarrhea. Also fine, whatever it was leaving his system.
Now three days have passed. He's eating, peeing, all fine. But poo is
thick, tar-like, which he squeezes out like toothpaste. I would think
after three days, he'd have a normal, well formed stool. It's so acid,
his butt is all raw.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Pamela

www.pet-wellness-update.com

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Matisse: black stool
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 4:18 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 6, 2007, at 1:04 PM, Pamela Picard wrote:
> Now three days have passed. He's eating, peeing, all fine. But poo is
> thick, tar-like, which he squeezes out like toothpaste. I would think
> after three days, he'd have a normal, well formed stool. It's so acid,
> his butt is all raw.

A diet of all beef and organs gives my guy horrible runny poos also,
lasting up to two days after I add in a LOT of bone. If he got rid of
all the roughage in his system and you haven't been feeding much
bone, this sounds really normal.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Matisse: black stool
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:44 pm ((PDT))

"Pamela Picard" <pet.wellness@...> wrote:
>We recently switched to beef, increasing muscle meat and
> organs, decreasing edible bone. He seemed to be doing very well. Three
> days ago, after a meal of edible beef brisket bone, he had a very
> severe attack of gastritis.

<snip>

> Now three days have passed. He's eating, peeing, all fine. But poo is
> thick, tar-like, which he squeezes out like toothpaste. I would think
> after three days, he'd have a normal, well formed stool. It's so acid,
> his butt is all raw.
*****
I'm thinking this whole thing is related to too much food, or perhaps
too much fat. Or both. Good to know he worked his way through the
first part (I usually let it resolve itself but certainly an
appropriate remedy was a sensible move). So, to the now part.

What has he been eating between then and now? Bone? Chicken? More
beef? Anything remotely inclined to continue producing these stools?
My dogs all have produced, at one time or another, the stools you
describe; the stools stop when everything is digested or a different
sort of meal is fed. I am absolutely certain I could find in the
barnyard right this very now several examples of black toothpaste poop,
only dried up.

If Matisse is showing no other signs of distress, I'd go for residual
effects, myself. I think his butt is sore because he's been pooping a
lot; 'twere me I'd be cleaning it off and applying some aloe or
something else soothing.

But if he seems to be ailing and/or if you are not comfortable with
this--or if it just goes on and on despite a menu changes--I'd say it's
time to visit the vet.

One way or t'other, let us know what happens, okay?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Matisse: black stool
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

You mentioned switching to beef - does this mean only beef or beef as
well as other meats?

It is possible that he does need some more edible bone in his diet as
it sounds quite high in meat and offal. My dog tends to produce darker
stools if she has a lot of offal.

good luck

Jo

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: The theories behind veggies & fruit
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Naomi!
The theory behind veggies and fruit - is that a lot of
people can make a lot of money by touting them as needed foods -
providing premade cr*p with bunches of "necessary" ingredients, or
selling a 'service' that tells you exactly what you should feed *your
dog to give him a *balanced diet*. Smart people and corporations are
jumping on the bandwagon of 'raw' feeding by, again, telling us we
have no knowledge or critical discrimination and must be told by 'the
experts' what is best for our dogs. And, in their opinion, what is
best for our dogs also lines their pockets with the green stuff.

The real truth is; dogs are wolves where it counts, in their DNA.
Wolves don't have gardens, don't have grinders, don't have food
processors, don't have cookers or fridges. They eat what nature
intended; species appropriate whole prey animals. Dogs and wolves
evolved into their ecological niche to derive their nutrition from
their prey - the prey animal eats the vegetation, the wolf/dog eats
the prey. Wa-La, complete nutrition for each. Will they eat vegetable
matter in the wild? Sure, if they are in danger of starving! That
doesn't mean that it is their optimal food source, it just means that
it will keep them alive until they can find some real food!

Feed your dog muscle meat, fat, skin, connective tissue, bones and
organs - in as much body part and protein variety as you can afford.
If you can source and can afford to feed whole prey, do it, that is
the ideal!

Can you share a bite of apple or shred of carrot occasionally with
your dog? Sure, if he'll eat it. Should you count it as part of his
diet, and feed them regularly and in quantity? Nope!

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi Naomi,
> My homeopathic nutritionalist advises me to provide some veggies
at each meal. <snip>
> Grace
>

> Naomi Bjorgan <ngbjorgan@...> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> What is the research around digested fruit and veggies for dogs from
> animal carcasses? Should a small amount of veggies be included which
> are ground or lightly cooked? If so how much and how often?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Naomi

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: The theories behind veggies & fruit
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 5:02 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/6/2007 12:31:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, grace
grasso writes:

She also said that in 2006 it was discovered that dogs can not process
omega3 from a non animal source so flax seed is not useful. Sardines are a
wonderful food.

Well, at least your homeopathic vet had ONE thing right!!!

Google "carnivore" and think about what you find on the subject of what a
carnivore IS.

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: Big dog with small appetite - needs to gain weight
Posted by: "natgs" natgs@yahoo.com natgs
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 2:33 pm ((PDT))

Dear Erica,

My dog just turned 16 months. I've noticed the same thing you did: he
has not been as eager to eat for the last couple of months as he had
been before. I think summer heat is partially responsible (as Nathalie
pointed out). I also think that, since our dogs are getting older,
they do not needing as much food/as often, because the growing process
has slowed down. So they are simply pacing themselves. Unless there
are any irregularities present that would indicate poor digestion
(e.g., frequent pooping and/or large amounts of it), I wouldn't worry
about it.

Natalya

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> After about a year on raw, my 18 month old GSD seems to be losing his
> appetite. He could really add another 5 pounds, and he's looking
> awfully skinny. He just doesn't' really want to eat.
> Thanks,
> Erica
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Flies!!!
Posted by: "gobi_1999" j.jhudson@earthlink.net gobi_1999
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 2:33 pm ((PDT))

I have found that feeding early (6:30-7:00AM) and late
(8:00-8:30PM) during the warmer months works best for me.
We have very few flies but many yellow jackets. These are the very
docile ones that seldom give any trouble but, nonetheless, can just
sting the fool out of you every now and then.

Jimmy

Messages in this topic (16)
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4b. Re: Flies!!!
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:02 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Kathleen,

Are you not able to feed indoors, then? (Your reference to "The
Birds" movie creeped me out just thinking of it!)

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen <kbabcock1@...> wrote:
>
> We have a problem with flies as well as yellow jackets, and birds.
I ordered the fliesbegone, does anyone know if it will help with the
yellow jackets? I got stung trying to protect my dog last night as
they were flying around her mouth after she ate. The birds, however,
creep me out. As soon as they see her, they start gathering, on my
roof, on my shed, in my tree, reminds me of the birds. I go out
every night with the papers to fan her with so the flies + leave her
alone. LOL
>
>
> Kathleen and TAMI
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (16)
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4c. Re: Flies!!!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:50 pm ((PDT))

"gobi_1999" <j.jhudson@...> wrote:
>
>
> I have found that feeding early (6:30-7:00AM) and late
> (8:00-8:30PM) during the warmer months works best for me.
> We have very few flies but many yellow jackets. These are the very
> docile ones that seldom give any trouble but, nonetheless, can just
> sting the fool out of you every now and then.
*****
This is my summer feeding schedule as well--early AM or late PM. And I
too have few flies and vast hordes of yellow jackets. Mine (and I use
the term with absolutely zero fondness) are vigorous and forthright
and hot to cause trouble.

So far so good.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
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5a. Just started yesterday
Posted by: "lmclaen" bmclaen@rochester.rr.com lmclaen
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 5:02 pm ((PDT))

Thanks all - she hasn't thrown up since - we're still on chicken
thighs/legs twice a day. She takes her time eating, she never was a
gobbler, and she chews well.

She has had only one BM, small and soupy. She tried to poo for ages,
just kept squatting, but that's all that came out. She didn't appear
to be straining or uncomfortable, more like "is that all?" which is
what I was thinking too. Should I be concerned? TIA.

Laeny

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Just started yesterday
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

--- She didn't appear to be straining or uncomfortable, more like "is
that all?" which is what I was thinking too. Should I be concerned? TIA.
>
>
>You will find that her droppings are much smaller than before. This
is because she is more able to digest her food now. Not only will they
be smaller, they won't be sloppy, or smell as much and they turn to
dust within days.

My dog enjoys chicken, as well as lamb and beef soup bones. I also raw
feed three cats.

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "brandy smolen" msbrsmolen@yahoo.com msbrsmolen
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Hello all - So I am definitely doing something wrong!
I have been feeding my American bulldog puppy raw for
almost a month. Up until this past week I have been
giving her this packaged raw food called Granddad's
Raw Dog Food. It is ground up chicken with bone and
organs; one has veggies combined with it, another is
beef hearts with the chicken, and there's also one
that is just beef parts. Anyway - I was giving her
that in small portions twice a day.
I wrote to the group in regards to how much I should
be giving her and after some very helpful responses I
started giving her some more because I wasn't giving
her enough. Anyway - I have been reading other posts
and last week I decided to give her meat from the
store. So last week Monday - I gave her the normal
ground up chicken mix with some veggies. On Tuesday I
gave some ground up turkey from the store in the am -
that night I gave her a chicken back and neck. I
smashed it up a bit first and then just let her go at
it. I have to say it was a learning experience for
both of us. She finally started to chew her food
before swallowing and I learned that I can't let her
try to swallow the whole thing at once. There is a
question in here I promise! On Wednesday I gave her
some chicken legs for her am and pm meal - Thursday
she had I think some more chicken if I remember
correctly a long with some plain yogurt for the first
time and some veggies that she is used to getting. I
don't remember what she had for breakfast but Friday
night I gave her a huge turkey drumstick for dinner
with some yogurt again and some new veggies like
broccoli and bell peppers. I grind up the veggies and
she doesn't get that much of them. I think there was
also some carrots and salad in with it. For breakfast
on Saturday she had just the other turkey drumstick.
Okay - that's the craziness as far as food goes here's
the problem and I am very worried so please let me
know I am the problem.
Friday night she had a soft but still solid bowel
movement - the night was normal. Saturday she got up
and ate like usual and then went outside and started a
day of diarrhea. She went in about a dozen different
places in about 15 minutes and them didn't go again
until after her dinner that night. She played and had
a normal day Saturday. That night she started to cry
in her crate so my husband took her out at around 3am.
Around 5am I heard her again so I got up and she had
2 spots of liquid diarrhea and one vomit area. Before
I could get her out she vomited again in her crate. I
took her to the bath where she vomited a couple more
times and pooped again in the tub. I cleaned her and
she went outside where she continued to have diarrhea
and vomited one more time. She fell asleep for about
2 hours and I was going to take her into the emergency
room when she got up. However, when she got up she
acted like nothing had happened and was happy all day
Sunday. She slept a lot but for the most part you
wouldn't have known that she was sick. I feed her
cooked rice with some chicken broth last night and
this morning. My question after all that is - tell me
that I made her sick with giving her to many different
things all in one week. Please tell me that's it! I
don't know what I should do from here - what to feed
her - how do I get her better? Or is this something
that I need to take her in. Please let me know if
anyone has experience this before and what to do!!
Thanks for reading the book of an entry I wrote - any
input would be great!
Brandy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:12 pm ((PDT))

ok...time to take a BIG step backwards. Choose one protein, something
with a decent amount of meat and somebone...I like chicken quarters,
because they're easy for me to get. You can just as easily buy a
whole chicken and whack it into as many meals as you need out of it.

Drop the veggies, the rice, everything else. Since you're already
dealing with some intestinal issues, cut off any big hanging pieces of
fat.

Don't worry about smashing up the bones, and if you still have soft
stools, divide the food further into an additional meal. For
instance, if she gets a lb a day, start with 2 1/2 lb meals. If she
still has messy stools, divide that lb into three meals.

I'm of the "let 'em swallow the whole thing" school. Robin learned,
pretty quickly that if she ate too fast, she could hork it up and have
"seconds." Then she learned to slow down and meals lasted a little
longer.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, brandy smolen <msbrsmolen@...>
wrote:
>

Hi Brandy

Drop the veg, drop the yoghurt, drop the rice and just stick with
the choock for a week or two. Turkey i find gives my dogs really bad
gas and i can only think how much extra broccolli must give on top
of that. Truly you only need raw meat meaty bones and the organs.
Check out past mails to see what to start on. Truly with a bit of
time and looking up you can get an excellent idea of how to start
but for now i really think you need to slow down there. My 15 week
old Aussie boy has been on raw since i got him two months ago and we
really stuck with the chicken for about two weeks, introducing tiny
pieces of organs and other proteins every day and i mean tiny at
first. Now he eats absolutely everything with extreme pleasure and
he eats nice and slowly too.

Caren y Amber y Rain

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I have feed my nine month old puppy raw since babyhood. I found when
she was little that it was best to introduce new things more
gradually. At least 3 days between new foods and only small amounts of
offal.

I noticed that you are feeding mostly ground/minced meat. This is not
the best thing in the long term as meat does not supply all your pup's
nutritional needs. She needs meat, bones and offal. It is also not
going to clean her teeth and gums and may lead to peridontal disease.
If you start your pup now eating raw meaty bones she will learn to chew
properly and not gulp down her food.

Have fun with your pup,

Jo

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: calcium/magnesium ratio????
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:
>
> I'm guessing it's nonsense . . . but, there's that little niggling
doubt . . .
>
> ...katie
>

Probably. Now that I know what I know about feeding my dog, which
probably still isn't alot, I would worry more about feeding the same
dog food day in and day out. If what comes out of the bag is
deficient in anything, you are promoting that deficiency for as long
as you feed that particular food. I think most folks usually find a
food they like and stick with it 'til death do they part. But with
the variety and bountiful menus that we place before our dogs, you
have to be covering more bases than feeding the same bag or can
forever.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Newbie question - another one
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 5:07 pm ((PDT))

Ok, I just went to the store and I found Chicken Leg Quarters - BUT in the
corner it says - "Tenderness & Juiciness enhanced with up to a 15% broth
solution. Is that alright, I just looked at the back of it and it says
780mg of sodium - too much salt? I think? Can I go ahead and feed these or
do you think it's better to wait?

Another question - went to another store after buying 3 bags of those (if I
can't use them then I can have chicken quarters for a long time!!!) - and
looked at their chicken - and their packages it said - 100% Natural -
Minimally Processed (not real sure what that means?) No added hormones - no
added steroids etc...is it alright to feed them chicken that says grain fed
raised? Which I would assume that would be the only way you feed a chicken
- but that's the kind of things that you're looking for right on these
packages.

OH, almost forgot - some of the Turkey and the chicken that I looked at said
__% of water retained - mean something? Bad / Good?

I'm going to another grocery store to look at their chicken, hopefully I
will have better luck.

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Newbie question - another one
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:15 pm ((PDT))

Some people feed 'em with no problem, others avoid enhanced stuff.

I don't generally buy enhanced on purpose, but with experienced raw
fed dogs, a day of the sloppy stools they cause here isn't that big a
deal to me. Heck, I don't see stools until I go outside to scoop the
yard every few days...so by the time I notice it, it's not an issue
anymore.

On 8/6/07, Brandi Bryant <bbryant573@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, I just went to the store and I found Chicken Leg Quarters - BUT in the
> corner it says - "Tenderness & Juiciness enhanced with up to a 15% broth
> solution. Is that alright, I just looked at the back of it and it says
> 780mg of sodium - too much salt? I think? Can I go ahead and feed these or
> do you think it's better to wait?

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Newbie question - another one
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:27 pm ((PDT))

If you can afford it, I would NEVER go with something
that had that much salt.
Minimally processed with no hormones etc is the BEST
because it means they've done less to the meat. Grain
fed is natural.
So if you can afford it, I would definitely stick with
it.
I REFUSE to buy pork from my grocery store because I
can't find ONE piece of pork that isn't enhanced with
a salt solution.
My ethnic butcher doesn't carry pork, so I have to try
and find another one who does. I'm a big fan of the
organic/minimally processed meat for my dog.

Nathalie

- and their packages it said
> - 100% Natural -
> Minimally Processed (not real sure what that means?)
> No added hormones - no
> added steroids etc...is it alright to feed them
> chicken that says grain fed
> raised?

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9a. pork bones
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))

I got a huge pork picnic-shoulder and leg-that I cut up in big chucks
for my dogs. is the leg bone too much for them? i do not want
cracked teeth! thanks. this is a great group.
take care
lynda and maude and franklin

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Question-5 weeks of Rawfeeding and lots of shedding
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:00 pm ((PDT))

FWIW, my Border collie mix Diesel, who was 2yo when started on raw
after I got him from the shelter, started shedding massively after a
couple weeks on raw. When I got him his coat was coarse and dull.
After a few more weeks I noticed that the new coat coming in was (and
still is) a gorgeous shiny blue black that is incredibly soft. So,
while all the initial shedding wasn't too fun to deal with - he now
has a really awesome coat in place of the old icky one.

Now he does the normal shed a little every day and blows his coat
twice a year as he should.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

<snip> She is shedding her entire coat
> and I mean, lots and lots of hair. She has never shed before.
<snip>
> Is this a normal effect from the change in diet?

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Lethargic pup - What is too much?
Posted by: "Naomi Bjorgan" ngbjorgan@gmail.com ngbjorgan
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 8:45 pm ((PDT))

Sorry to have created a debate trail here.

I did speak with another family who had just gotten a lab pup and they
said their pup slept a lot too. Sheba does have 'bursts' of energy
especially in the evening. She seems very content and relaxed. Her
poops are now firmer too.

My next question is how do I know I'm not over feeding her? This is
what I feed her in a day:
Morning: Chicken neck and back and small steak w/ bone in
Noon: Chicken wing w/ 1/2cup ground beef
Evening: Pork bone w/ very small amount of meat and chicken wing

Is this too much or not enough for a 3mos old lab? I would say she is
about 20lbs. She gets lots of fresh water regularly too.

Thanks for the help.

Naomi

Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: Lethargic pup - What is too much?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:18 pm ((PDT))

Naomi Bjorgan <ngbjorgan@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry to have created a debate trail here.
*****
LOL
You didn't, Naomi, and even if you did (which you did not), debate
trails aren't always bad. No apologies needed.

> I did speak with another family who had just gotten a lab pup and
they
> said their pup slept a lot too. Sheba does have 'bursts' of energy
> especially in the evening. She seems very content and relaxed.
Her
> poops are now firmer too.
*****
Puppies play, eat, sleep, poop. And then they do it again. Lab pups
are no different except that they play harder, eat faster, sleep
deeper. They do not however poop bigger. I think what you describe
sounds healthy.

> > My next question is how do I know I'm not over feeding her?
*****
When she has loose stools. When she gets chubby. Loose stools?
Feed less. Chubbiness? Feed less. No sweat.

> Morning: Chicken neck and back and small steak w/ bone in
> Noon: Chicken wing w/ 1/2cup ground beef
> Evening: Pork bone w/ very small amount of meat and chicken wing
*****
I personally think there's more bone than there needs to be. She
doesn't need bone every meal; she doesn't need a neck and a back AND
she doesn't need a sliced steak bone at all. You can do meatier than
chicken wings; you don't need to be feeding yet more edible bone at
dinner. Plain and simple that's a LOT of edible bone!

I recommend you junk the steak bone (just feed the meat), junk the
chicken neck. Forever. Okay, you can feed the heck when it comes
attached to the rest of the chicken. Otherwise, forget it.

A breakfast of chicken back plus meat (and you'll have to increase
the amount of meat since you won't be bulking up the meal with bone)
is dandy. Don't get more complicated than that.

Lunch of a wing plus ground beef isn't very challenging but it's
okay. However a wing and half a cup of meat is not very much food.
Maybe a wing and half a pound of meat. Half a cup? Nope.

For dinner, ditch the bare naked pork bone. There's really no place
ever in a meal for a naked bone. Feed her the chicken wing with
another pile of meat, or feed her a wing with a big whole hunk of
meat, or feed her a pork bone that is positively slathered in meat.

It also may be that you are not feeding enough food. My guess is
she'll be maybe 70lb at adulthood; this means you could be be feeding
maybe as much as half a pound of food per meal. Or at least you can
start there and adjust up or down (usually up AND down!) as needed.

Of that, most of the menu should be meat (fat, skin, flesh,
connective tissue), a part should be edible bone, and some little bit
should be organ (liver for now is fine or you can wait on liver).
Less bone than you are now feeding, more meat.

Consider buying whole chickens to hack apart yourself: some meaty
hunks, some not so meaty but when you've fed through a whole bird you
fed a find combination of meat and bone. Consider feeding whole
meats instead of ground.

If you girl is loggy at all, it may be because of all the bone she's
been eating.

I don't think you are far away from a good menu. Mostly you might
have to ditch bone and add meat: not a big deal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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11c. Re: Lethargic pup - What is too much?
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

I would say DEFINITELY not enough MEAT! I don't think
you're overfeeding her by far, if anything, you're not
feeding her enough meat.
Some people are partial to ground meat, but it doesn't
really do anything to help your dogs teeth.
If I were you, I'd go out and buy a whole chicken and
give that to her in the morning. Put it away when
she's done eating, then offer it again later, maybe
for dinner.
As for a lunch meal, (if you're feeding her pork and
she seems to be ok with it) I would feed a pork
shoulder, or a big chunk of boneless pork. Or turkey
breast, with the bone.
Chicken wings and backs are too bony now for your
growing pup unless they're attached to the whole bird.

Give her MORE meat (and, in MY opinion, I'd cut out
the ground almost completely).
Have you tried her on organs yet? Try some beef liver
(SMALL amounts to avoid cannon-butt), if she doesn't
take too well to it, try freezing it. That's the only
way my dog will deign to eat liver or heart.

Nathalie

> My next question is how do I know I'm not over
> feeding her? This is
> what I feed her in a day:
> Morning: Chicken neck and back and small steak w/
> bone in
> Noon: Chicken wing w/ 1/2cup ground beef
> Evening: Pork bone w/ very small amount of meat and
> chicken wing
>
> Is this too much or not enough for a 3mos old lab?
> I would say she is
> about 20lbs. She gets lots of fresh water regularly
> too.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> Naomi
>

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Messages in this topic (3)
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