[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11888

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Flies!!! - Yellowjacket control
From: Lori C

2a. Re: Newbie question - another one
From: Andrea

3a. catfish??
From: Terri Leist
3b. Re: catfish??
From: Andrea
3c. Re: catfish??
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: catfish??
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3e. Re: catfish??
From: sbnfield4
3f. Re: catfish??
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
From: Pamela Picard
4b. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
From: ginny wilken
4d. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
From: cmhausrath

5a. Re: Blood clot in urine - (used to be Chicken feet with nails?)
From: tottime47

6a. Re: Matisse: black stool
From: Pamela Picard

7. Raw meat seller!
From: Anntiga@aol.com

8a. Re: Re-check on fish oil amounts
From: Laura Atkinson
8b. Re: Re-check on fish oil amounts
From: ginny wilken

9.1. Intro
From: Sarah Turgeon
9.2. Re: Intro
From: cmhausrath
9.3. Re: Intro
From: sbnfield4

10a. ecoli and samonella
From: Jenna Mahoney
10b. Re: ecoli and samonella
From: jrtsnabc
10c. Re: ecoli and samonella
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Beef
From: Eve
11b. Re: Beef
From: Andrea

12. new-many questions
From: lisa23weasley

Messages
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1. Re: Flies!!! - Yellowjacket control
Posted by: "Lori C" labcope@yahoo.com labcope
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

Kathleen:
Here's some ways to get rid of Yellowjackets:

Homemade Traps: A crude yellow jacket trap is made by hanging a raw fish or piece of liver (slightly diced on the exterior) by string about 1 to 2 inches above a container of detergent and water. The detergent will act as a wetting agent and eliminate surface tension which will improve trap efficiency. Foraging yellow jackets are attracted to the raw meat and will often become overloaded with food and fall into the water and drown. This method of yellow jacket control is not as efficient as nest elimination but it may help reduce the population to acceptable levels.
"Bee Lining" for Fish Bait: Bee lining is a method by which a person may locate a yellow jacket nest by observing foragers as they return to their colony with food. A freshly caught small fish should be diced slightly on the exterior with a knife and hung in a tree about 5 to 6 feet off the ground. Foraging yellow jackets will be attracted to the raw fish and will chew off a tiny particle of the meat. By close observation, a person can follow the flight line of the yellow jacket back to her nest. The foraging yellow jacket will normally make a "bee line" straight to the nest which is often no more than 1,000 yards from the food source. Fishermen have been known to use this procedure to discover yellow jacket nests and use the grub as excellent fish bait.

Of course you could always buy Yellowjacket traps at the hardware or garden center and hang them around your dog's chow area. They are attracted to bait inside and fly in but can't get out. I have found that nest elimination is the most efficient way to get rid of them.

Lori C

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2a. Re: Newbie question - another one
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

One of my dogs gets itchy when he eats enhanced chicken. The other has
no reaction, and one of them (not really sure which one) often gets
loose stool from it. On the occasion my bf goes shopping and brings
home enhanced meat for the dogs, it gets fed to the one who can't tell
the difference. If I were you, I'd go ahead and feed it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, I just went to the store and I found Chicken Leg Quarters - BUT
> in the corner it says - "Tenderness & Juiciness enhanced with up to
> a 15% broth solution.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. catfish??
Posted by: "Terri Leist" qahri@sbcglobal.net qahri
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

Before I end up causing my dogs to get sick. I found some catfish nuggets on sale for 99c. Is catfish ok for them to eat? (crossing fingers) I gave them some already.

Terri & the Raw Fed-"Muttly Crew" Kadin & Lilly:
Learn how: www.rawfeddogs.net

www.rawfed.com

www.rawmeatybones.com

Over exposure to the SON; actually PREVENTS burning!!

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: catfish??
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 8:06 am ((PDT))

As far as I am concerned, there is nothing wrong with catfish other
than the fact that my crew won't touch it. I brought home a whole
catfish months ago and "I'll eat anything" Geiger took one sniff and
ran away. I cut some up for the cats but, as they so often do with new
things, they assumed I was trying to poison them.

I kept trying with Geiger and a few days later he managed to eat about
half of the fish. By then I could tell he genuinely didn't like the
fish and wasn't just being picky, so I threw it away. One day I might
buy another, just to see if Tycho will eat it or if the cats have
changed their minds.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Terri Leist <qahri@...> wrote:
>
> Before I end up causing my dogs to get sick. I found some catfish
> nuggets on sale for 99c. Is catfish ok for them to eat? (crossing
> fingers) I gave them some already.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: catfish??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

Terri Leist <qahri@...> wrote:
>
> Before I end up causing my dogs to get sick. I found some catfish
nuggets on sale for 99c. Is catfish ok for them to eat? (crossing
fingers) I gave them some already.
*****
They are no worse than any other farmed fish. Some dogs like them,
some don't. Often new fish (heck, new anything) can cause digestive
discomfort but that's not generally the same thing as getting sick.

Try a small amount, don't overdo the servings.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: catfish??
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 8:38 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/7/2007 6:15:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
qahri@sbcglobal.net writes:

Before I end up causing my dogs to get sick. I found some catfish nuggets on
sale for 99c. Is catfish ok for them to eat? (crossing fingers) I gave them
some already.

***yes, catfish is ok to give the dogs for meat variety.

personally, i buy the catfish nuggets to feed my fish rather than the dogs, i
buy whole mackeral, bonito, indian mackeral and/or sardines for the dogs.
Sometimes salmon, but it's tough finding whole salmon.

Catherine R.

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3e. Re: catfish??
Posted by: "sbnfield4" sbnfield4@yahoo.com sbnfield4
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 8:38 am ((PDT))

"I cut some up for the cats but, as they so often do with new
things, they assumed I was trying to poison them."

ROFL! Cats do tend to act like that!
Susan

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3f. Re: catfish??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 8:39 am ((PDT))

> Is catfish ok for them to eat?

Hi. I have tried catfish.It is ok to give but you need to get the barb cut off I read here in list.

My dog,just like Andrea's,did not like the catfish.

I tried from thumb size but all palette did was sniff it and lick it and roll on it to get the smell on body,not eating. If she pick it up and chew some,but spit it out.

So, I gave up on it since there are tonz of fish kinds you can find to feed.

I have tried cod,perch,flounder,whiting,halibut,mahi-ahi,snapper,shark..Squid,scallop,shrimp
and such.

If this help you ?

As for scallop and shrimp,I was not intended to,but I got them on quite big buy,and I kept most for us human and reserved just about 4oz or less each for her to sample. If I did not have got them on sale,I would not bother getting them.

For squid,you need to remove cartilige,but my dog went nuts about it. She loved them andwas looking for more after that.

I usually get whatever looks good on fish counter or things on sale. I buy half lb each for just in case palette not eating them.If I find her liking them a lot,then next time I get more just like perch which she really love and torelate very well.

yassy

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4a. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

If I were to point fingers at anything in your menu, it would be
broccoli and green pepper. Both from the nightshade family which have
a toxin in the green part of the pant. If the pepper is not fully
ripe, the toxin in the skin can cause nausea and vomiting if
overeaten. Who knows how much it takes to distress a puppy? My dog had
a similarly violent reaction to garlic. So no more garlic. I'm glad
the situation resolved on its own. Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, brandy smolen <msbrsmolen@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all - So I am definitely doing something wrong!
> broccoli and bell peppers. I grind up the veggies and
> she doesn't get that much of them. I think there was
> also some carrots and salad in with it. For breakfast
> Brandy
>
>
>
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4b. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

"Pamela Picard" <pet.wellness@...> wrote:>
> If I were to point fingers at anything in your menu, it would be
> broccoli and green pepper. Both from the nightshade family which
have
> a toxin in the green part of the pant.
*****
Actually, no.
Broccoli is a cultivar of Brassica oleracea (wild cabbage) which is a
vegetable (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, kale, kohlrabi, and
brussels sprouts are the same species); green pepper is a fruit, a
member of the Solanaceae fsmily which is what you mean I think by
nightshade.

The concern about broccoli is the amount of calcium it provides,
which would be an issue with great regularly occurring heaps of the
stuff but would not be a concern if feed judiciously. The bell of
the green (unripe) pepper is not poisonous; the foliage may be.

Overeating more or less defines most of our vegetative caveats. So
the issue really is not how much is too much, but rather why take the
chance at all, since none of it is nutritionally required anyway.

If one is bound and determined to feed domesticated vegetation, I
would think those plants that most resemble browse and grass would be
least offensive. Neither broccoli nor green pepper meets that
guideline.

My dog had
> a similarly violent reaction to garlic. So no more garlic
*****
Garlic--again in moderation--has various virtues. Again, the issue
is more about how much is useful and how much is detrimental than it
is about unqualified dismissal.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:19 am ((PDT))

On Aug 7, 2007, at 6:26 AM, Pamela Picard wrote:

> If I were to point fingers at anything in your menu, it would be
> broccoli and green pepper. Both from the nightshade family which have
> a toxin in the green part of the pant. If the pepper is not fully
> ripe, the toxin in the skin can cause nausea and vomiting if
> overeaten. Who knows how much it takes to distress a puppy? My dog had
> a similarly violent reaction to garlic. So no more garlic. I'm glad
> the situation resolved on its own. Pamela

Well, you're way right about no veggies, but that won't make broccoli
into a nightshade:) Broccoli is a Brassica, along with cauliflower,
cabbage, kale, Brussels sprouts, collards, mustard, rutabaga, turnip.
rape, etc.

Nightshades are Solanaceae, and include peppers, eggplants, tomatoes,
potatoes, several useful medicinal herbs, and tobacco. Solanceae do
possess relatively large amounts of poisonous lectins, and may cause
reactions in many species and individuals. Most of the lectins are in
the leaves. I avoid these for myself, and see no reason to feed them
to a dog, while the Brassica are only normally inappropriate and not
near as likely to cause symptoms in small quantities.

Plant lectins are destroyed, along with most food value, with cooking.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (9)
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4d. Re: 13 week old puppies with diarrhea and vomiting
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:28 am ((PDT))

"costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> The concern about broccoli is the amount of calcium it provides,
> which would be an issue with great regularly occurring heaps of the
> stuff but would not be a concern if fed judiciously.

Ah, see, Griffin thinks a "judicious" feeding of any veggie means NONE
at all. He did once eat a sugarsnap pea I dropped, though I think that
was an accident. Otherwise, to get veggies into the kid required
pureeing and ample mixing with eggs and ground meat. We were both
quite relieved to learn, early on, that veggies weren't required
feeding. And all this confusion about which are good and which aren't -
- and in what amounts they were beneficial versus harmful -- it's just
too much to keep up with, for me.

> If one is bound and determined to feed domesticated vegetation, I
> would think those plants that most resemble browse and grass would be
> least offensive.

And here I figure, if Griffin wants it, he can get it himself. We
walk -- even in our urban setting! -- in a variety of places, each with
its own menu of browse-able plants. From time to time he elects to
partake of some of them. Often they come right back (please doG, not
in the car on the way home!), sometimes they pass through, but it's
always his choice. As it should be.

Not that anyone asked for our $0.02, but there it is!

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: Blood clot in urine - (used to be Chicken feet with nails?)
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

Hi Katherine,

Blood in urine, especially as much as you describe indicates
something going wrong......
I would say a vet visit is in order to do a culture on the urine...
Peeing visiable blood and passing blood clots should not be
ignored..........

Carol & Charkee

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@...> wrote:

I fed about 3 or 4 big chicken feet with claws to my little 7.5 pound
JRT. About a day later, she had blood in her urine. Bright red and
fresh at first but, after about 8 or 9 hours, she passed a large
clot. This really scared me. The only thing I could surmise (and I'll
be curious to see what others say) is that a claw punctured something
causing her to have blood in her urine. After the large clot passed,
she was fine. I haven't fed the feet with claws to her since and this
hasn't happened since.

Katherine and the JRTs & BC
Windsor, CO

Messages in this topic (16)
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6a. Re: Matisse: black stool
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 7:14 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> *****
> I'm thinking this whole thing is related to too much food, or perhaps
> too much fat. Or both. Good to know he worked his way through the
> first part (I usually let it resolve itself but certainly an
> appropriate remedy was a sensible move). So, to the now part.
>
> What has he been eating between then and now?

We fed him chicken necks. Too much bone. He was itchy and scratching
like crazy, so a month ago, I switched to a beef elimination diet to
determine if this itchiness was due to the protein source. I wasn't
going to feed another protein for at least another month. He did
extremely well the first 3 weeks on this food. Good appetite and good
well formed stool. He especially likes the edible brisket bone, but I
stretched them out so he would get the teeth cleaning and chewing
benefits without getting jammed up.

He's pooping once a day and only this thin, hard to squeeze out paste.
He isn't showing any other signs of distress, so I'm going with the
flow. So to speak.

And yes, I'm on butt patrol too. :-))

Thanks for your feedback. I'll keep you posted.
Pamela

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7. Raw meat seller!
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))

Hi! For those on the US East Coast, here is a raw meat supplier:
_http://www.ppcnew.com/locations.htm_ (http://www.ppcnew.com/locations.htm)

I'm out on the West Coast (California) and have not used this supplier. I
got this from another list where it was recommened.

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

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8a. Re: Re-check on fish oil amounts
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 8:47 am ((PDT))

Why? I've been hearing this for years, but never any good reason why.

On 8/6/07, Andelys Peck <a_peck@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am behind on my emails so sorry if this was mentioned but you should
> always give Vitamin E too if you are giving Salmon Oil.
> Andy

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Messages in this topic (11)
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8b. Re: Re-check on fish oil amounts
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:44 am ((PDT))

On Aug 7, 2007, at 8:46 AM, Laura Atkinson wrote:

> Why? I've been hearing this for years, but never any good reason why.
>
> On 8/6/07, Andelys Peck <a_peck@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I am behind on my emails so sorry if this was mentioned but you
>> should
>> always give Vitamin E too if you are giving Salmon Oil.
>> Andy

Well, the theory is that the Omegas are fragile and prone to
oxidation, and the Vit E is supposed to step in and fill the
vulnerable spots in the molecules and keep them safe from the oxygen
radicals. We take some to be on the safe side of the bets, but it has
nothing to do with the fish oil, which we use in bulk and keep quite
cold. Most commercially produced fish oil products do contain a bit
of E as a natural preservative, and capsules, in any case, are sealed
against air and thus oxidation. I imagine that the "vulnerability" of
ingested oil is an important part of its metabolization, in any case.
I'd like to think the oil is as intact before I use it as it would be
inside the body of the source fish, and then digestion does its thing
once it's eaten.

Anyway, probably can't hurt, but not a life or death matter. Just
mind your sources and take care of your oil.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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9.1. Intro
Posted by: "Sarah Turgeon" Seguropwds@gmail.com seguropwds
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:15 am ((PDT))

Hi Everyone,

My name is Sarah Turgeon, and I have two Portuguese Water Dogs whom I have
started on raw about 3 weeks ago. They are doing great on it. The only
problem I had was getting Charlie who is 14months used to the different
texture. I love it and we are hooked.

Sarah
Callie (It's about time you feed us something good)
Charlie (It was weird at first but now I love crushing the bones, I'm a real
though guy now)

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9.2. Re: Intro
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:26 am ((PDT))

"Sarah Turgeon" <Seguropwds@...> wrote:

> I love it and we are hooked.

Good for you and your dogs! Welcome to the list!

-- sandy & griffin, both also glad the human finally caught on &
started feeding real food!

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9.3. Re: Intro
Posted by: "sbnfield4" sbnfield4@yahoo.com sbnfield4
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

Welcome Sarah, Callie, and Charlie!
From another new member,
Susan, Sheba (GSD) and Max (JRT)

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10a. ecoli and samonella
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 10:06 am ((PDT))

Ok I finally admitted to my vet I am feeding my dogs raw. I could lie
to her so I just didn't bring it up til sh eask at a yearly visit.
First she acted shocked or like she had misunderstood me and then she
just simply said just watch out for ecoli or samonella. What should
have been the appropriate response from me?
Jenna

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10b. Re: ecoli and samonella
Posted by: "jrtsnabc" jrtsnabc@yahoo.com jrtsnabc
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

"OK." :D That's my typical response...

Katherine and the JRTs & BC
Windsor, CO

Subject: [rawfeeding] ecoli and samonella

Ok I finally admitted to my vet I am feeding my dogs raw. I could lie

to her so I just didn't bring it up til sh eask at a yearly visit.

First she acted shocked or like she had misunderstood me and then she

just simply said just watch out for ecoli or samonella. What should

have been the appropriate response from me?

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10c. Re: ecoli and samonella
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 10:46 am ((PDT))

>she just simply said just watch out for ecoli or samonella. What should have been the >appropriate response from me?

Hi,Jenna.You can tell her look up the anatomy of dog.THey have short intestine so,before bacteria gets grow and being able to infect the dog with it,dog poop out the food waste.

But you need to clean the dog's eating area with vinegar 50 water 50 solution to kill germ and clean for humans.

yassy

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11a. Beef
Posted by: "Eve" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 10:07 am ((PDT))

Hi,

I've been feeding my dog chicken for about three weeks
now and would like to move on to another source of
meat. I tried pork and he got a bad stomach and threw
up on 2 different occassions. So I am going to try
beef. Are there any specific cuts or parts I should
buy? Or should I just get a large slab of steak?

As far as giving him bones, I will give him chicken
for that. But is it ok to give him a piece of steak on
the bone? Or is it too risky that he may try and eat
the bone?

Thanks,
Eve

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11b. Re: Beef
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 10:46 am ((PDT))

Hi, Eve, since beef is pretty expensive, my boys don't get it that
often. Slabs of ribs for fun and exercise, but not much meat there.
I buy any roast that is on sale, as long as it isn't pre-seasoned the
cut doesn't really matter. When you add the meat, you should
probably do half a meal with beef and half with chicken to avoid
digestive upset. Did you give whole meals of pork when you
introduced it? That might have been the reason for the problems with
the pork.

If you have steaks with bone in it, cut the bone out before you give
it to the dog. The small size and sharp edges are an invitation for
problems. HTH.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eve <loulou_bean@...> wrote:

> I tried pork and he got a bad stomach and threw
> up on 2 different occassions. So I am going to try
> beef. Are there any specific cuts or parts I should
> buy? Or should I just get a large slab of steak?
<snip>
> But is it ok to give him a piece of steak on
> the bone?

Messages in this topic (10)
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12. new-many questions
Posted by: "lisa23weasley" lisa23weasley@yahoo.com lisa23weasley
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

hi my name is lisa and I just started my 2 year old aussie mix on raw 5 days ago. short history- rocco has horibble allergies. has lost most/all fur on back half of body-raw under neck,and side of face-chronic itcher-chewer-severe dandruff-eye/ear problems. usually not as bad in winter but this summer has been rough on him. south texas humidity and heat are bad. doc. wanted to put him on meds but wanted to try raw first. in 5 days his fur is growing back-eyes have cleared up-appetite is best it has ever been-still has very dry skin and itching still. getting fish oil pills today. he is still pretty stinky I hope this will lessen once skin clears up. oh rocco is 43 lbs needs to put on weight. he has been on chicken for 5 days-backs-leg quarters-hearts-liver. loves everything but the 1 time I gave liver-had to lightly sautee it first. my ? is what is beef cheek -muscle? and what is sweet bread-ugly white looking meat. how often can these be fed? also are turkey necks to small for him? oh one more thing-if I am tring to have him gain weight do I calculate according to his current weight or with his goal weight? sorry all this is in lower case-i'm typing from my phone pad. thank you in advance for any advice. - lisa & rocco

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