[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11902

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
From: Jacqueline Miller
1b. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
From: jennifer_ricotta

2a. Re: Goat Meat?
From: Ivette Casiano
2b. Re: Goat Meat?
From: Denise Strother

3a. Re: Starting raw feeding
From: carnesbill

4a. meat from farmers?
From: jennifer_ricotta
4b. Re: meat from farmers?
From: Giselle
4c. Re: meat from farmers?
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: raw and kibble mix
From: Ivette Casiano
5b. Re: raw and kibble mix
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Starting with chicken
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: loose stool and vomits?/convincing mother fully?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Question about RAW feedings
From: Denise Strother
9b. Re: Question about RAW feedings
From: tottime47

10a. ADMIN/Re:Alternative Tx for allergies?
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Processing Tripe
From: sphynxlover2
12b. Re: Processing Tripe
From: merril Woolf

13. eczema
From: Sarah

14a. Re: rawhide
From: tottime47
14b. Re: rawhide
From: Mary

15a. Re: Alternative Tx for allergies?
From: ginny wilken

16a. Re: Anyone add vinegar to their dogs drinking water
From: delcaste

17a. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
From: delcaste

18. Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
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1a. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
Posted by: "Jacqueline Miller" beaulincolnsmine@yahoo.com beaulincolnsmine
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

Hello Jennifer,
You have come to the right place to get the answers to
all of your questions. Not from me, however, because I
have only been feeding raw for about 8 months now. I
have 4 dogs: 2 shepherds, a standard poodle and a
lhasa apso. The poodle is 9 and the lhasa 7. All are
doing extremely well. The lhasa many times will
swallow bones whole. He used to make me cringe
watching him. It reminded me of a snake swallowing its
prey whole. Yuck! But he is doing great. He had a
little trouble with loose stool for awhile but you
couldn't even call it real diarrhea. He crunches the
bones as best as he can. He gets most of his bone in
chicken and fish. I don't give him pork or beef bones
because he doesn't grind them too well. He doesn't
have the same mouth and grinding teeth like the poodle
and shepherds. The shepherds are like experts at raw
especially the larger, older male. He grinds and chews
and is finished in short order. He had a lot of bowel
upset before getting on raw. He was in the emergency
clinic more than once with severe diarrhea as was my
poodle. I hesitated for a long time before putting the
poodle on raw because of her digestive problems. Now,
all on raw and no problems, diarrhea or anything. I
couldn't go back to doing anything else.
Since you have been feeding chicken for awhile is
should be time to introduce another meat beef or pork.

But others who know more and have more experience will
answer your inquiries soon. The moderator is
excellent. They will give you the proper guidance. I
just wanted to encourage you before you heard from
them.
God bless,
Jackie and the Hoodlums

--- jennifer_ricotta <ricottaj@mac.com> wrote:

> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello everyone. I've been feeding my dog raw
> chicken for a few weeks now without bones to
> ease her into it since she has such fierce digestive
> issues (she even throws up water if she
> drinks too much). Surprisingly, she's doing great,
> considering we tried the raw chicken
> patties earlier this year and she would vomit for 2
> days after! Here are my questions:
> 1-Where are you feeding the dog? I obviously can't
> have her running around the house with
> a raw chicken.
> 2-How do I know if she is crunching the bones
> enough? I fed her bones for the first time last
> night. I think she would have swallowed the chicken
> neck whole if I didn't stop her. I hand
> fed her the neck and a wing. I feel like she barely
> crunched them, though no problems yet.
> She has horribly crooked teeth and is missing one of
> the large sharp incisors from birth. So
> you understand the severity, when she was a pup, the
> vet asked me if she could eat! She's
> seven now though and has no problem eating. Also, I
> gave her a large lamb bone to knaw on
> last week and she did fine. Should I be concerned?
> 3-To solve the above two things, should I just grind
> the bones with the meat? Would it be
> good for her if I did decide to do that and
> occasionally give her a large bone to knaw on for
> her teeth? Also, is there a home meat grinder that
> can do the job?
> 4-Lastly, what bones are you giving your dog? I
> have a 50 lb. pit bull/boxer. I've read
> chicken backs, wings, breast (but not drumstick?)
> but what about the lamb or beef? What
> other meat options should I consider and which
> bones?
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))

Jackie,
Thanks for the encouragement. I can't wait until this is all second nature. I'm hoping that
the raw diet will help ease ear, eye, and skin problems that my dog has due to allergies. I'm
excited to see if anything will change. Regardless, I'm happy to do what is best for her.
Thanks and enjoy your Sunday!
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Goat Meat?
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))

<<...Hmmm, this new cubed goat meat was from a primarily Latino market as
well...>>

Noelle, I'm Latina and yes, they do cut up the goat meat with a bone in the center because we use the goat meat for stewing and have to have the hard bone in the center to hold everything together and suck on at the end of the meal.
My parents still live in Puerto Rico and they used to raise goats, Too bad I can't get some of those goats here in Florida.
Good luck searching.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: Goat Meat?
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

I live in Houston and found a wholesaler who sells goat meat. They
sell a six way cut, which is a whole goat cut into six pieces for
2.14/lb. In the stores here goat is 4.99/lb and up. Look in your
yellow pages for meat wholesalers, etc. Denise

My parents still live in Puerto Rico and they used to raise goats, Too
bad I can't get some of those goats here in Florida. Good luck
searching.
Ivette Casiano

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: Starting raw feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...>
wrote:
>
> When you say, start with chicken for about a week, then introduce
another type of protein, do you mean feed the other protein every day
for a week or just once to see how he tolerates it and feed chicken
the rest of the days?

I suggest alternating the new protein with the old. The third week,
add another to the rotation, etc.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. meat from farmers?
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

Is anyone getting their meat from farmers or are you all buying in bulk at the grocery store,
butcher, or costco type place?
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:47 am ((PDT))

Hi, Jennifer!
There are many ways to creatively, and cheaply, source
meats for your dogs.
This is a terrific list, shared by another list member;
> where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

1) look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) you may be able to join a barter group.
4) google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) if you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8) if you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) see if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or google to see.
10) try Craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) and I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
Freecycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sams Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) definitely watch the the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) a great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. see if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. and sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill (like deer)
22) you can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room
23) post a message in CarnivoreFeed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) speak to local farmers
25) also look for heart, tongue, and gizzards which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats
26) find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

TC
Giselle

> Is anyone getting their meat from farmers or are you all buying in
bulk at the grocery store,
> butcher, or costco type place?
> Jennifer
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

"jennifer_ricotta" <ricottaj@...> wrote:
>
> Is anyone getting their meat from farmers or are you all buying in
bulk at the grocery store,
> butcher, or costco type place?
*****
It is my goal to get offa my butt and buy lamb and goat ranch/farm
direct. I get some beef and lamb from processors and rabbit from
breeders and once upon a wonderful time ago I was getting vension from
a custom butcher but no way have I put enough effort into by-passing
the middle man. Phooey on me.

I mostly buy pork from Asian markets, which is okay; and I'm good for
chicken. It's just the ruminant part of the diet that lacks.

Any day now <snort> I will get down to raising my own.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: raw and kibble mix
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:50 am ((PDT))

<<...Good luck convincing him; but I'm guessing seeing the gradual
improvements in his dog will convince him soon enough!
Evie..>>>

Thank you so much, Evie, for your story on starting with raw. He says he's not opposed to raw feeding (since he sees how much Nugget likes), the issue now is that he has runny stool. I'm now trying to convince him to let me feed whole parts with bone so his stool can firm up instead of the ground meat and bone with chunks of meat. He's so afraid Nugget will perforate body parts with the chicken bone. If I'm successful, I'll have a brand new grinder with no use. Oh well, I guess I can make fresh ground burger meat for him.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: raw and kibble mix
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

Hi, Ivette!
Wheew, let see if I can tease out specific parts of your
post so I can offer a few points of information.

For BRIAN;
1) Dogs are wolves. Except for the outside wrappers, their skeletal
and internal construction and DNA is virtually the same.

2) Wolves don't have grinders, or food processors, or cookers, or
gardens, or fridges in the wild. They don't need them. Neither do dogs.

3) Wolves and dogs evolved to eat prey animals, thats what predators
do. The prey animals eat vegetable matter, the wolves/dogs eat the
prey animal, and they get all the nutrition they need from those
animals, in the form that they evolved to optimally digest.

4) People are omnivores, they can, and should, eat animal and
vegetable matter. Dogs/wolves are carnivores, they eat prey animals.
They cannot properly digest vegetables or grains, which is what kibble
mostly is. In the wild, they can survive on vegetation, but they don't
thrive on it, and as soon as meat 'on the hoof' is available again,
guess what they'll hunt?

5) Look at the difference in the way dog's teeth are made; pointed
tearing teeth and sharp bladelike shearing teeth, no flat grinding
teeth, as in the mouth of humans and herbivores.

6) The whole animal - muscle, bone, organs, skin, connective tissue,
etc. 'the whole package' is what carnivores need to be optimally healthy.

7) A dog's digestive system, which begins in his stomach, unlike a
human's, has very strong gastric acids that are meant to digest raw
meat, bones, etc. Grinding meat and bones for a dog robs them of the
tearing and shearing they have evolved to need for their 'juices to
begin to flow' for proper digestion. Its no wonder ground meat and
bone is horked back up; the stomach hasn't been able to prepare itself
to digest it.

8) Cooking meat changes the chemical composition and makes it harder
to digest, and harder for a dog to derive all the nutrients it needs.
Cooking makes bones brittle, and inappropriate to feed.

9) Tearing, shearing and crunching large muscle and bone parts
provides a dog with the physical activity, mental stimulation and
dental activity they need. Dog's who interact with their food the way
they are meant to are often calmer, have less of a drive to find
something to chew on, and have cleaner, healthier teeth, gums and
jaws. And, absolutely no need for (w)rec'(k) bones.

10) The present commercial pet food industry, as we know it, began not
too many years ago, when our nation became increasingly mobile, and
dogs were shipped by train across the country to dog shows from
breeders with large kennels of dogs. Some enterprising businessmen
discovered a way to make 'dog food' biscuits from grain and meats that
were cooked and baked so that there was no need for refrigerating huge
amounts of meat for the dogs to eat. And, as it caught on, it was
marketed to the general public as a "quick and easy" way to feed your
dog. The lies that dogs are omnivores and need grains, fruits and
veggies came later, when the big corporations needed to defend their
products, attract more customers and get costs down to make more
profits. As our society has become increasingly consumer, advertising
and expert driven, we have come to believe what the pet food companies
want us to believe; that 'real nutritionally balanced dog food' comes
in a can or bag, and that we can know nothing about our dogs real
needs unless their 'experts' tell it to us. Why pay out hard earned
dollars for substandard quality, cooked foods that have ingredients
that you have no control over? And why pay companies for multimillion
dollar advertising budgets; so they can lie to you some more?

11) Dogs choke and die from all sorts of objects; kibble, sticks &
objects they find out in the yard, by tearing up and by ingesting toys
and stuff they find lying around in the house. Sure, they *could*
choke on a bone, but the truth is; dogs choke and die everyday from
ingesting inappropriate nonfood items. They also suffer by poisoning
and intestinal complications from ingesting such items. Dogs who
consume a species appropriate raw prey model diet are much less likely
to try to consume inappropriate items, out of boredom, a lack in their
diet or a drive to chew, than are kibble fed dogs.

12) The type of bones fed to a dog should take into consideration his
size, age, dental construction and crunching drive. Most bones that
are fed to a dog should be of the entirely edible category, for that
particular dog. Most of the hard, dense bones from large critters,
such as cows, shouldn't be fed. Edible bones only need to comprise
about 10% of a dog's total diet.

13) Dogs who eat a species appropriate raw diet derive so much more
nutrition from it, that their stools are much smaller and are more
infrequent than kibble fed dogs. Much less of a raw diet comes out as
waste. Kibble fed dogs have large, frequent stools, because much of
the plant matter is indigestible, and unusable by the dog.

You could start adding edible bones into Nuggets diet by offering him
bone in chicken breasts - not a lot of bone, but easily crunched and
digested. You could offer rabbit, small critter, soft bones. How about
turkey? Or a nice bone in pork shoulder or fresh ham?

You know that feeding kibble and raw at the same time won't allow the
dog to properly adapt to eating raw - it does take adjustment on the
part of the dog's digestive system, since it had to adjust to eating
kibble at first, when weaned from his mother's milk. I don't have an
answer for this; except maybe you can negotiate for a real raw trial -
switch over and feed an optimal diet on your terms, say for 3 months,
keep a log or journal, then evaluate and assess the differences in
Nugget's appearance and health, and promise to change back to kibble
if there's no improvement. ; )

If you can accomplish this, I suggest you be conservative - start with
whole or half chickens for a week or a few - then branch out slowly
into other proteins and body parts, one at a time for a few weeks
each. Don't worry about organs, just feed the gizzards and hearts that
come with the chickens, and add a tiny bit of the liver with meals.
When you start a new protein, cut out the organs for at lest the first
week, until you can assess Nugget's response to it.

Slippery Elm Bark Powder can help to get you through periods of runny
poos when you make a mistake with too much food, too much new food,
too much organ, or just an initial sloppy response to a new food. Just
sprinkle a tsp. on the meat.

I hope some of my post can help you, Brian and Nugget get on the same
page with raw feeding. You're welcome to print this out and let Brian
read it, if you think it'll help to convince him to trust your
knowledge that raw fed is best. Oh, and if he comes up with the "Its
too expensive to feed raw." excuse, I can post a nifty list to help
you with that problem, too.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

btw, tell your sis to back off - you don't need the pressure in your
relationship with Brian or to know what's best for Nugget. : )

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, here goes, I'm risking being "flamed" here but I need to be up
front so maybe someone can give me some good advice for the benefit of
our dog. I know totally raw is the best, just that my hands are tied
because Nugget was Brian's dog first before we started living together.
,snip>
> Sorry this is so long but I wanted you to have all the
background. I've written about this first but hadn't been up front
about still feeding kibble because I didn't want to be scolded because
I know better but it's not up to me.

> Ivette Casiano
> "Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: Starting with chicken
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:
>
> Is it possible for a dog to become allergic to chicken after eating
it for 2 months with no adverse effects?
*****
Anything's possible.

But since most kibbles are based on or rely heavily on chicken, I would
expect any "allergy" to have been noticed long before the dog were to
eat the whole raw protein. It could be the dog is reacting to
enhancements, could be something else entirely. It's not common that a
dog would respond badly to the raw protein but not blink when eating
the processed version.

My guess is something else is going on. The easiest way to find out is
to switch entirely to a different protein (new all new) and see what
comes of the change.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:05 am ((PDT))

"eyed_blue" <eyed_blue@...> wrote:
>
> ps, getting confused over which bones to feed, some weight bearing
you
> can feed some you cant?
*****
Don't feed cow or horse legs, not for fun, not for nutrition. Feed
mutton legs only if they come equipped with lots of meat. Lamb and
goat bones are fine. Poultry bones are fine unless the birds are aged,
in which case feed the bones but don't expect full consumption
(although it's fine if such bones are eaten). Young pork bones are
quite edible; an older farm pig that's put some miles on its trotters
while perhaps being suspiciously parasitic may also have mighty dense
leg bones.

Easiest way to look at one's options, IMO, is to ask 1. how much weight
did those legs have to hold up and 2. under what conditions and 3. for
how long?
Chris O

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8a. Re: loose stool and vomits?/convincing mother fully?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:15 am ((PDT))

"deep_ocean_of_sorrow" <deep_ocean_of_sorrow@...> wrote:
>> i didn't realize that timing was so important for food. that day was
> starting a little late, so the breakfast became a bit late. (all my
> fault, i know.)
*****
You've got it backwards!
Timing is NOT important. It's when you MAKE it important that the
results (which you have seen) can be disconcerting. Unless you are
feeding a diabetic dog or using time-sensitive meds, a clock really is
not part of a good raw diet.

If you stop relying on a schedule for feeding, your dogs will
absolutely let you off the hook. The clock is what has gotten you into
this fix; limiting the clock's influence to human concerns will get you
out of it.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Re: Question about RAW feedings
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

Hi Betty,
My smallest two dogs are 5 and 3.5 lbs. I don't weigh my dogs food,
but I do feed chicken. I feed legs and thighs and the rest of the
chicken too. I often feed them whole chickens. I just cut one open
with kitchen shears, usually down the breast bone. I give it to them
on a towel. If two of the little dogs will eat peacefully together, I
let them eat together, or I put one in the bathroom and let him eat
his fill and then let another eat. If there is chicken left, I pick it
up and put it back in the fridge for next time. Letting them eat off
of a whole chicken is very good exercise and because it takes longer,
they seem more satisfied. I do have one that will eat 2 or 3 days
worth of food at a time. I just let her eat what she wants and skip a
day or two for her (gorge and fast). The others eat a meal and stop on
their own (self- regulating). I don't know if this helps or confused
you more. The great thing is, you can try different things til you
find what works best for you and your dogs. Denise

> since I have dogs that only weigh 8.4 lbs and 6 lbs I would o ly
given 1 1/2 ozs ot the bigger dogs and not quite 1 1/4 ozs to the 6
lb dog?? Do you all give chicken thighs and legs??
> Betty Hinson

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9b. Re: Question about RAW feedings
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

Hi Betty,

I have 1 dog that is 10lb and I give him a thigh for a meal.

I have cut apart and weighed out the meat in an average thigh
and it is about 4ozs of actual meat after removing
the bone & skin...

Both my dogs are small, the other is about 15lbs..

I find that smaller dogs, unless they are older and not active,
actually need more meat than recommended.

You could start with half a thigh, about 2oz of meat and adjust if
they seem to be getting skinny.

If they will eat the meat off the thigh with the bone in & skin on,
give it to them and remove it after they have eaten half of it and
save till the next meal......

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "betty hinson" <b_hinson@...>
wrote:

> since I have dogs that only weigh 8.4 lbs and 6 lbs I would o ly
given 1 1/2 ozs ot the bigger dogs and not quite 1 1/4 ozs to the 6
lb dog?? Do you all give chicken thighs and legs??
> Betty Hinson

Messages in this topic (8)
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10a. ADMIN/Re:Alternative Tx for allergies?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

This topic will have a greater life span on RawChat, along with
homeopathy and other complementary/alternative methods.

Please take this to RawChat.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (7)
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11a. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:43 am ((PDT))

"angelsnoopers64859" <angelsnoopers64859@...> wrote:
>
> I have Old English Sheepdogs who are at 50 lbs. right now and I am
> looking to add 5-10 lbs onto them.
*****
So. Are they skinny ninnies or are you working to get them to the
typical carbo-loaded conformation ring look? You'll never get them
to that jelly roll appearance by feeding them a species appropriate
diet, since of course there's no significant carbs on the menu.

Feeding more food (to bowel tolerance) will put on weight though, so
feed larger, fattier meals and if necessary add more meals and reduce
exercise. Feed them according to what you would prefer them to
weigh, not what they currently weigh.

Pork and lamb come with lots of fat, so most any but the leanest cuts
will help. Skin-on pork shoulder, trotters, hocks, brisket bone,
riblets--pork will be easiest and cheapest to find. Lamb breasts are
fat repositories, so look for them, untrimmed.

Also consider beef chuck roasts and brisket (not corned!), untrimmed
and plenty fatty. You can also get beef and pork fat, which you can
add to every meal.

Don't pluck chicken or turkey fat, consider feeding domestic duck.

Try to introduce fat gently, to minimize digestive upset. Slow and
steady. You can have buff, healthy dogs through proper feeding, but
getting there quickly may not happen.

OT question about the OES. The breed is always described as having a
rolling gait. Is that a look that's been perpetuated perhaps by
carbokibble feeders, or does their physiology actually incline them
to that side to side effect? I wonder if a carbohydrate menu
produces a less loose appearance. Just curious.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "sphynxlover2" AST42701@aol.com sphynxlover2
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

The knives I have aren't very sharp. Should I purchase any type of
> special knife?

Hello Frankie, my BF is a chef, and he says the VERY first thing they
learn in culinary school is that a sharp knife is your friend in the
kitchen-a dull knife is an accident waiting to happen. I think anyone
who plans to feed a raw diet-especially to a small dog-should have a
couple of good knives. I like a good meat cleaver (preferably with a
plastic handle) and just a good sharp chef's knife. It's great if you
have a butcher block, but I just use a plain old cutting board. You
can use a damp cloth under your cutting board to keep it from sliding
around on a counter. And always know where your fingers are BEFORE you
make a cut! :)

Sorry I can't answer your questions about the tripe. I have very picky
eaters here who I know won't touch it so I don't even buy it.
Hopefully someone here can answer that question.
Rachelle and the safety patrol in MS LOL

Messages in this topic (5)
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12b. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT))

> My only problem is I don't know the first thing about processing
> tripe. I feed green tripe, but it's already cleaned and cut or
> ground. What do I do with it? What kind of cutting equipment will I
> need for it? Can anyone tell me what I'll have to do? I don't even
> know what it's going to look like; I imagine it's going to smell pretty
> nasty. HELP! LOL
>
> Frankie
>

You can process it several ways. None are pretty.

With ten dogs, you might want to try giving them a whole one to start with. Make sure it's
well back from the house - say, next county even. ;-)) Cow stomachs are very heavy so
getting it to your yard might also be a problem. We use a wheelbarrow.
If you can get it into your yard, just go inside and pull the shades...oh, and lock the dog
door behind you. :-) Let them feast on it until it's gone. I've done that many many
times. You'll be left with one big pile of stomach grass when they are done, but it can be
spread on your garden to make a good fertilizer etc.

If you choose to go the cut up route, you might want to hold your nose and think of
England or something. It's not for the faint of heart. I'm tough but those cow stomachs
render me weak even.

Place the stomach (it weighs a ton) on plastic sheeting and with a big knife, you try and
seperate up the stomachs. This is not easy since all the stomach chambers attach to each
other in a very complex way. You might just want to empty out the large stomach by
shaking it and then cut it away from the other stomachs and bag it.
Do the same with the other chambers although, these are kinda complicated too. I leave
in quite a bit of the green matter in the smaller chambers but when thawing and feeding at
a later date, you will need to feed outside or somewhere where you can hose down the
area. These things are messy. Unground tripe is rubbery and the dogs tend to shake
them as they tear at them. You get the picture. You don't want green stuff stuck to your
walls.

In a nutshell, whole tripes are a lot of work but the dogs love them. The smell is horrible
and the work is dirty. I think it would even daunt that guy from Dirty Jobs!

I've also fed goat and sheep tripes and they are easy to process. So easy, it might be
feasible to try one or two of those first to get your feet wet so to speak. I've never fed
pig tripe so can't advise on that but maybe someone else has.
I feed goat and sheep tripes whole and the dogs eat the entire thing. NOthing is left. I
just dump them in the yard and lock the dogs out for a while. With a pack of dogs, they
demolish them in no time.
With cow tripes, they leave the main stomach contents of undigested grass but do eat the
entire other stomach chambers including the green matter.

In closing, use a very long sharp knife, a mask if you are squeamish and keep a good
sense of humor on hand. You are gonna need it.

Merril
Whippets

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13. eczema
Posted by: "Sarah" nananewfs@yahoo.com nananewfs
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE: SIGN YOUR MAIL!!!

This may sound stupid. Just picked up a rescue today that the owner
has had since 8 weeks old. She is now 4yo. Owner says she's had eczema
since a tiny pup. She itches constantly and is raw and red around her
neck almost like the skin wants to bleed. My Q is will raw diet take
care of this alone or do I need to Supplement w/Fish oil. I'm guessind
trying raw first and give it a couple of weeks then go to supplements.
But not Sure. Only been feeding raw for about 6 weeks.

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: rawhide
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

Hi E & R,

Read some of the past posts on this site about rawhide chews.

They can cause digestive upset in some dogs and also impaction.

If your dogs love to chew, get them some natural, untreated pizzle
sticks......

Very safe and fully digestible & dogs love them!

Carol, Charkee & Moli ( I love them)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "esmolensky" <esmolensky@...>
wrote:
>
> does anyone recommend rawhide for recreational chewing purposes?
>
> Thank You,
> E & R

Messages in this topic (11)
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14b. Re: rawhide
Posted by: "Mary" halle4@comcast.net hallebest
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))

Yes, there is plenty wrong with rawhides, please heed this information. Even if you have always fed your dogs rawhides and never had a problem, they are useless as far as nutrition. No need to take the risk however! An alternative = bully sticks.

Rawhides pose potential health risks. Rawhide can cause either vomiting or diarrhea from the many pieces still sitting undigested in the GI tract. Swallowing large pieces can lodge in the throat and cause choking. Large pieces can also scrap and irritate the throat and esophagus. Once in the stomach or intestinal tract, rawhide may create a physical obstruction. Some rawhide may create a risk of Salmonella or have an arsenic-based preservative.

Mary Smallwood
York, PA

----- Original Message -----
From: esmolensky
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 12:08 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] rawhide

does anyone recommend rawhide for recreational chewing purposes?
Are there any pros/cons with rawhide for rawfed dogs?
My dog loves rawhide and it keeps him busy for a long time, i was just
wondering if there are any negatives about it.

Thank You,
E & R

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Messages in this topic (11)
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15a. Re: Alternative Tx for allergies?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))

On Aug 12, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:

> Sorry, but I've known people who have had excellent results with
> this type
> of testing and treatment for allergies. This is energy work (not
> unlike
> homeopathy or reiki or many other energy healing approaches) so the
> term "allergy"
> has a little different meaning. I get a little nervous when
> people write
> off treatments as quackery or label alternative approaches as
> whacko without
> having direct experience. Homeopathy often "fails" and we don't
> call that
> whacko, we say the disease was too far in it's course or wrong
> remedy or
> something like that. When conventional methods fail we say
> similar things. Proof is
> in the results for me. One of the most highly respected
> alternative vets in
> the eastern states uses this approach. Who knows for sure??
>
> Carol for Spencer

And, just as with homeopathy, a great deal depends upon the
practitioner, and how they interpret what they find. Many homeopaths
use muscle testing to verify remedy choices. But my point was not
that the testing itself did not show "something", but rather how it
was understood, and, more importantly, that the use of the
combination remedies made all discussion of homeopathy impossible no
matter what the results of the testing.

And, yes, you don't have to look far to find someone ready to call
homeopathy wacko. But for my purposes I have sorted out the wacko
approaches from the valid ones, and the good elements of otherwise
wacko modalities as well. And for this case, there were too many
questionable elements for me to approve. My own opinion, of course.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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16a. Re: Anyone add vinegar to their dogs drinking water
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ohboyx3" <ohboyx3@...> wrote:
>
>
> Someone recently told me I could add a tiny bit of vinegar to my dogs
> water.
>
> Danae for Zorreaux

Hi Danae,

I believe that's apple cider vinegar that you're supposed to add. I
believe that it keeps the water clean, i.e., without that green mold. I
have birds and they're supposed to be getting it in their water but
I've never done it. It's apple cider vinegar, though.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (11)
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17a. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

> You might want to join DogHealth or even RawChat (sister lists on
> Yahoo) to dicuss your options; both lists are better suited than
> Rawfeeding for the topic.
>
> Offhand I recommend a good raw diet and a salmon oil (or fish body
> oil) supplement. After that, my heavens I just don't know. I was
> giving my seniors a gl/ch tripe strength combo, plus MSM and the
> salmon oil, but I've no clue at all whether these would work for
> other dogs.
> Chris O
>

Thanks Chris,

I think I will join DogHealth (i'm already a member of RawChat). I will
be switching my senior as soon as his k**ble is gone and need to
supplement him. BTW, Violeta seems to be gulping less :)

Silvina

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18. Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

Hi,everyone. Yestreday was my groceryshopping day and,I found big piece of Ox tail on shelves of meat department area.

I know that up to now,every time I asked about items I was looking for, the answer comes back as either "That is all we have", or" No,we don't carry it",but yestrday.. I found whole Ox tail when asked about if there were any whole ox tail back the counter!!

I was not intended to look for that in particular but since they had some packages out and that looked fresh and was curious.

The tail was about 4lb. It was not as cheap as chicken meat but, since it looked so good so,I got it.

My question is that,I do not remember if I saw any posts about edible bone or hard to crack category bone for tail.

when I look at the bone in package on the shelves,when you touch it, it feels bit soft,but is it category of feumer bone;better to avoid letting dog eat bone?or is it ok category bone?

In case you wonder, I got it from Giant in fredericksburg VA. so,if you shop there,try asking that and you may get lucky!

But Beef anything is real big ;Beef Tongue whole weigh around 3lb and tail 4 lb heart roughly 3lb ...Cow is real big animal!

By the way,yesterday,human had pizza which made my dog to protest not to eat her Elk Rib and whine for smell of good pizza.

Yesterday,husband was at home so,we sat inside the kitchen ,placed our meat mat for her andput her meal on it.My dog sat near us,looking towards pizza box in the living room,whine.

When we say "go eat your meal",she trott out and trot all around kitchen lick the meat,and come back to us,sit and stare.

She repeated this thousands time and then, she laied on side looking other way not us on mat.

Finally,she sat up and went to meat,lick it and back to my husbands and lay asking for pet.

After repeating this many times, when she touch the meat,my husband pet her and when she stopped eating or touching,he stopped petting and,finally she got into rib and finished half meal.

Other half of meal of rib was on mat still, and she did all stuff she did repeatedly,protested not to eat and,just lay on side..wewondered if she got full or still prostesting for pizza.I was close to take it away and no goat today which her favorite meat.

Well,she afterall ate everything but all these protesting last 1 hour plus!

she is such a persisten/hard-wired dog!

We really needed lots of patient last night.

I do not know if pizza triggered this act or Elk itself is not tasting as good as chicken or what but it was so tiring night.

When I pulled chicken feet to praise her,she was dashing to me so,I do not think she was prostesting for pizza.She was happy to get chicken feeet.

Yesterday was3rd night of Elk rib,but second night,she ate meat first andshe crunch down bone without any problems and no prostesting or wahtsoever.

When I give Elk again,I will see more if she really does not like it much or not.

But if I keep feeding what she not so much liking kind of meat, she gets to like the meat later after getting used to meat taste??

yassy

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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