[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12186

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
From: Sandee Lee
1b. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
From: Giselle
1c. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
From: Denise Strother
1d. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: Denise Strother
2c. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: susrob061174
2d. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: rabbits
From: Sandee Lee
3b. Re: rabbits
From: Yasuko herron

4a. older dog having difficulty digesting bone
From: Kim
4b. Re: older dog having difficulty digesting bone
From: Yasuko herron

5.1. Re: Pork
From: costrowski75
5.2. Re: Pork
From: Renate
5.3. Re: Pork
From: costrowski75

6a. A Bone Question
From: totaly_his
6b. Re: A Bone Question
From: Yasuko herron
6c. Re: A Bone Question
From: doreenchui
6d. Re: A Bone Question
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Rats
From: susrob061174
7b. Re: Rats
From: Giselle
7c. Re: Rats
From: susrob061174

8. pig pancreas
From: Erica

9a. Re: 7 days without normal poop
From: Yasuko herron

10. Raw-feeder from China needs help£¡£¡£¡£¡10-week-old puppy no poo
From: cherpapazhou

Messages
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1a. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:11 pm ((PDT))

Well, they need some bone in the diet, but it doesn't need to come from
beef. You can supply bone intake with chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, etc....

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@gmail.com>

I butchered a cow, and didn't save any bone. Most of the bone seemed too
hard for my dogs.
Can I get by feeding just the beef and no bone to my bulldog and rat
terrier?

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Pat!
Short term, you can. But you might not like what comes out
the other end. : (

What about skin, fur, organs, fat? Or are you feeding just muscle meat?
That's not what whole prey model is all about, and its not an optimum diet.

Most beef bones are too dense, true. But depending on what size your dogs
are, they might get a good work out and tooth cleaning from 'flossing' with
a slab of rib bones or long cow legs. Bones don't have to be entirely
consumable to be useful. Just don't count the part not consumed as part of
the diet.

Variety of protein, organs and edible bone is an integral part of an optimum
diet. Feeding just beef, just muscle meat, can work temporarily. But, you
need to make a commitment to feed more than that over time.

Please, give us an overview of exactly what you are feeding. Tell us about
your dogs, and what your experience with and philosophy of raw feeding has
been, so we can give you specific advice.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/21/07, windmilldairy <drwindmill@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I butchered a cow, and didn't save any bone. Most of the bone seemed too
> hard for my dogs.
> Can I get by feeding just the beef and no bone to my bulldog and rat
> terrier?
>
> Thanks
>
> Pat
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

Yes, you can feed just meat meals. Remember they should be getting
mostly meat with some bones and organs. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...>
wrote:
I butchered a cow, and didn't save any bone. Most of the bone seemed
too hard for my dogs. Can I get by feeding just the beef and no bone
to my bulldog and rat terrier?
Thanks
Pat

Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:56 pm ((PDT))

"windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...> wrote:
>
> I butchered a cow, and didn't save any bone. Most of the bone seemed
too hard for my dogs.
> Can I get by feeding just the beef and no bone to my bulldog and rat
terrier?
*****
No bone never, nope, can't do it.
No bone when you feed beef, certainly.
Just make sure you feed body parts that do include edible bone when you
are casting about for critter variety.

Beef bones are difficult to feed, even to bulldogs. Next time though,
I recommend you save the whole, uncut tail; the intact neck even after
you've stripped it of most of its meat; the intact rib slabs; the
brisket bone; the shanks with a goodly portion of meat left on; and the
feet. Perhaps the head. Most of these bones stand a chance of being
eaten to some extent; bones like feet and meaty shanks will offer big
fun even if no bone is ingested.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:17 pm ((PDT))

I've only been feeding raw for about 8 years, but I have never had a dog get
sick from meat. Salmonella is everywhere....in fact is a normal bacteria
found in the gut and stool of a high % of healthy dogs (and people)
regardless of what is fed. I wouldn't pay any attention to what others
say...in fact, I don't see any reason to tell anyone what I feed my dog.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Annaliisa Readman" <amvilppu@hotmail.com>

We have been feeding raw for about five weeks, since we adopted our boxer
puppy. We haven't had any problems. She is a happy healthy pup, who is
growing steadily and has a shiny coat. Our only issue is the horrified
response we get from people, including my in-laws, when they are informed
that we are feeding her raw (I have not been brave enough to tell my vet).
A dinner party guest the other night was a nurse at a veterinary clinic and
she said that they see dogs all the time who have gotten salmonella or other
illnesses from eating raw food. I certainly couldn't refute her first-hand
experience, but I assured her that we feed our dog high-quality meat and
then explained how dogs are equipped to digest raw meat. Has anyone had
experience with their dogs getting sick from their meat? Just curious.

Messages in this topic (24)
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2b. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:37 pm ((PDT))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Hi Annaliisa and Crew,
I have 3 rawfed dogs, 2 Chihuahuas and a Pitbull. I might just be the
Queen of feeding questionable meat. I have fed meat that I had to hold
my breath to deal with it. If the dog will eat it, I let it, and my
dogs have eaten some awfully smelly meat. There have been times I
stood there watching a dog eat some disgusting smelling stuff and
thought I was buying myself an all night cleaning up dog
vomit/diarrhea party. But so far I've never had a problem with it.
Knock on wood. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Annaliisa Readman <amvilppu@...>
wrote:
We have been feeding raw for about five weeks, since we adopted our
boxer puppy. We haven't had any problems. She is a happy healthy pup,
who is growing steadily and has a shiny coat. Our only issue is the
horrified response we get from people, including my in-laws, when they
are informed that we are feeding her raw (I have not been brave enough
to tell my vet). A dinner party guest the other night was a nurse at
a veterinary clinic and she said that they see dogs all the time who
have gotten salmonella or other illnesses from eating raw food. I
certainly couldn't refute her first-hand experience, but I assured her
that we feed our dog high-quality meat and then explained how dogs are
equipped to digest raw meat. Has anyone had experience with their
dogs getting sick from their meat? Just curious.
>Annaliisa, Drew and puppy Laila

Messages in this topic (24)
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2c. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

Annaliisa, Drew and puppy Laila

<<<A dinner party guest the other night was a nurse at a veterinary
clinic and she said that they see dogs all the time who have gotten
salmonella or other illnesses from eating raw food. >>>

There is a key point in that response that she gave you " from
eating raw food". There is a differience in eating raw and eating a
raw diet. Thats the reason why k***** and raw dont mix. It takes so
much long for ***** to digest and then when the dog come behide and
eats raw its increasing the chance of getting sick.

<<< Has anyone had experience with their dogs getting sick from
their meat? Just curious.>>>

Been doing it since 1998, havent had any problems

<<<<Our only issue is the horrified response we get from people,
including my in-laws, when they are informed that we are feeding her
raw (I have not been brave enough to tell my vet).>>>

I had this problem at first with about 76 members in my family when
the word spread, no one visit, but that how I like it, put it takes
time, time will only tell. Its hard to confense someone what is
right and they already have there mind set before you even have a
chance to get your .02 cents in, I normally tell them she is my dog
and I believe I know best.
Before my vet asked me what I was feeding my Danes. He was sooo
impressed with coat, teeth and built, afterwards he didnt say much,
just looked at them. After five years, he still cant believe their
conditions. He performed blood works and all heath testing and
commented me that Im was still doing a great job. Just got to get a
vet that understands and they are out there. But for the note, I
really wouldnt say anything unless he/she ask what you are feeding.
Life is to short to waste energy on getting upset on ignorance. Good
Luck!!!!

Susanne, Courtney & the Dane Gang (Zoe, Wilson, Annie & the rescues)
http://www.streborsgreatdanes.com/Raw101.html

Life is grand when you love a Dane? Have you licked your Dane
today? :P

Messages in this topic (24)
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2d. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:18 pm ((PDT))

Annaliisa Readman <amvilppu@...> wrote:
Has anyone had experience with their dogs getting sick from their
meat? Just curious.
*****
Please remember to change the subject line when you change topics.

A dog can "get sick from" its meat without salmonella or e.coli being
at fault. A dog can "get sick" from overeating, from eating too
quickly, from eating too much fat, from simply eating too much new
stuff. Dogs can get "sick" from pancreatitis; from impacted bones
(rarely); from things that have absolutely nothing to do with raw
meat.

And also it's necessary to determine what "get sick from" means.
Vomiting is not necessary sick behavior. Neither are loose stools,
although clinical diarrhea might indicate bacteria overgrowth.
Again, the question of source remains.

Since kibble is not sterile and kibblefed dogs shed bacteria as much
as if not more than rawfed dogs, fecal samples would also be
unreliable proof. I'd be inclined indeed to question her statement.
Suspicions are rife and a dime a dozen, but the proof--how does one
conclusively relate salmonella poisoning to raw food?

That said, I assume neither my dogs nor my cat have hever suffered
from salmonella or e.coil overgrowth at all, much less from eating
raw meat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (24)
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3a. Re: rabbits
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Rabbits are a great food if your dog will eat them...whole is best, cut up
is fine, wouldn't grind. What else are you feeding?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "lrosem3" <lrosem3@yahoo.com>

are rabbits a good source to feed to my dogs? what is the best
way,,,whole,or cut up, or
maybe even gound up?

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: rabbits
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

> are rabbits a good source to feed to my dogs?

Giving variety of meats is good way to feed. Rabbit is good to feed.Get a whole rabbit and cut up just like chicken,and feed.

Only prob I had was..my dog was eating with so disgusting face first,and after some tries,she went to strike not to eat therabbit and just lay on side on the mat and never touch the meat,never come closer....

I think rabbit is hit or miss kind of meat and,mine did not like it.

Since she eats other various kinds of meat so,I decided to pull the menu out...and I gave the meat to other fellow rawfeeder.

I think that meat in form of ground is no better than chunk of meat. Don't ground the meat or do not get the meat ground up.

Dog never get fun with food...

When you get rabbit,you can get it with fur still on or skinned too.

If you live in east coast side,maybe hare today in PA will give you wide choice ofrabbit meat and reasonable shipping fee.

PA to VA where I live,it took us about 2 days.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. older dog having difficulty digesting bone
Posted by: "Kim" two-pups@comcast.net jedikim8
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

I've been feeding raw for 4 1/2 years thanks to this group. Lately my
oldest dog (9 1/2 y.o. beagle mix) has been throwing up everytime she
has a meal with bones in it. She's been doing this for a over a year
with chicken legs (seems she can't digest the knobby end), so I
stopped giving her legs and stuck to other parts of the chicken. In
the past 2-3 weeks, it appears she is having difficulty digesting ANY
chicken bones. I also gave her pork neckbones recently, which she
never had trouble with, but she threw up some undigested parts of
that, too.

I know she needs bone for the calcium, etc, but I don't want the poor
girl throwing up everytime she has bone.

Is this common in older dogs? Does anyone have any suggestions? For
exaple, should I stop giving her bone and add supplements?

Thanks for any thoughts/suggestions!
Kim

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: older dog having difficulty digesting bone
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:20 pm ((PDT))

>Does anyone have any suggestions?

Hi,Kim.I am no expert nor I do not have an older dog so,I am suggesting from my thoughts.

But,if digesting bone was one hard job for your dog,do you think it makes any better if you crack the bone a bit with hummer?

Or..give less bone than before maybe help?

No matter how you do,if any bones comes right back out,then,why not giving Egg shell(calcium) instead of bone? Can't give variety of bone this way,but at least,your dog can get calcium that bone can give to dogs.

Dry the Egg shell after washing,and bake at 300F 10 minutes(thisremoves mineral-oil coating on shell sometimes added to keep Eggs from drrying out,and this also helps to make fine powder and brittle enough),and grind it.1 Egg shell makes about 1tsp of shell powder. that suppsedly about 1800milligrams of calcium in it.

Another calcium source other than bone itself...is bone meal but I do not recommend that. sometimes it contains lead in it and not good for dogs.

Other calcium source..... umm, Yogurt,cottage cheese etc,but it should not be big part of diet,and too much can cause loose poo.Maybe you could give as treats to give even a bit of calcium adding to Eggshell if you desire.

Those are the all thoughts I have on this topic but I hope others that have older dogs would response to you.

Good luck,

yassy

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5.1. Re: Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:47 pm ((PDT))

"rocketblasther" <jforbes05@...> wrote:
> Quick question, Is pork shoulder roast and pork butt the same thing?
*****
I'm certain to butchers they are as different as night and day. To us
rawfeeders and our dogs, they might as well be the same thing.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (51)
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5.2. Re: Pork
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

The shoulder roast is from the top of the front legs, and the butt is from
the top of the back legs. Presumably the legs are all in synch, so as far
as toughness or tenderness, go, I think its pretty well the same LOL
Renate

On 10/21/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> "rocketblasther" <jforbes05@...> wrote:
> > Quick question, Is pork shoulder roast and pork butt the same thing?
> *****
>
ore I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (51)
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5.3. Re: Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:30 pm ((PDT))

Renate <renate.tideswell@...> wrote:
>
> The shoulder roast is from the top of the front legs, and the butt
is from
> the top of the back legs.
*****
This is not how I understand it. It's all shoulder material, I
believe. Here's a link to the Cook's Thesaurus:
http://www.sonic.net/~alden/MeatPorkShoulder.html

"pork shoulder = pork shoulder butt = pork blade shoulder Meat
from this section is relatively fatty, which makes for juicy, tender,
and flavorful roasts as well as clogged arteries."

And this, from the Virtual Weber Bullet:
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/porkbuttselect.html

"Pork Butt Defined

Despite the name, pork butt does not come from the rear end of the
hog--it is cut from the shoulder.

The pork shoulder weighs 12-18 pounds and consists of two portions:
the butt, which is the upper portion of the shoulder, and the picnic,
which is the lower portion.

The whole pork butt is a rectangular roast weighing 6-10 pounds and
containing a portion of the shoulder blade bone. It is sold bone-in
or boneless; if boneless, a whole roast may be cut into half portions.

The whole picnic weighs 6-9 pounds. It contains a portion of the
foreleg and is usually sold with some skin attached. The picnic is
sometimes cut into an upper arm portion (the meatier portion, usually
sold skinless) and the lower foreleg portion (containing more bone,
skin, and connective tissue)."

HTH,
Chris O

Messages in this topic (51)
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6a. A Bone Question
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

I am still 6 days in to a raw-feeding diet for my dog. Could someone
tell me what a "weight-bearing" bone is? I think it would be legs of
all animals but what other body parts would that be....maybe thighs?
And I know that I have read that a knuckle bone is not to be given
because it can break a dogs tooth. Where is a knuckle bone found so
that I don't give it. Thank you. Jackie

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: A Bone Question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:20 pm ((PDT))

>tell me what a "weight-bearing" bone is?

Hi. That means,leg part from big animals;cows. Example, knuckle bone,feumer bone,marrow bones.

I do not give leg part of 4 legged animals except pig.Pig feet is ok.dog can eat it.

I do not give shank bone(lamb shank etc) because I hear it shard sharp.

Bone that I give from 4 legged animals are ribs,necks,tails plus pig feet.

tail means..such as Ox tail(not the one you find at grocery cutted into 1 inch chunk but the one you ask the meat guy at grocery store andask whole).

Poultry bones are I think no threat to dogs teeth.Chicken does not weigh asmuch as cow does:-P

Knuckle bone,feumer bone,marrow bones are usually bare naked bone andyou can find it at grocery store meat area with relatively cheap price but i do not buy it.

yassy

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6c. Re: A Bone Question
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:37 pm ((PDT))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE RMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

is chicken feet considered as bones?
Doreen

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: A Bone Question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

>is chicken feet considered as bones?

Hi.I think so. It is good source of natural glucosamin(good for arthristis dog),but i do not give my dog too often due it has 60% plus fat in one feet.

I give probably 2 per week in average.

yassy

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7a. Rats
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi Guys,

I have introduced a wide variety of meat to my dogs. I was thinking
since I already raise a bit for them now, what about RATS? I was
thinking of the hairless Rats since they cant get fleas LOL, they get
pretty big. Has anyone tried rats before?

Thanks,
Susanne, Courtney & the Dane Gang(Zoe, Wilson, Annie & the Rescues)

Life is grand when you love a Dane. Have you licked your Dane today?:P

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Rats
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:39 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Susanne!
A question; How do you know that hairless rats don't get
fleas?

And, what other criteria would you use to decide on a rat variety to raise
for prey for your dogs?

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Hi Guys,
>
> I have introduced a wide variety of meat to my dogs. I was thinking
> since I already raise a bit for them now, what about RATS? I was
> thinking of the hairless Rats since they cant get fleas LOL, they get
> pretty big. Has anyone tried rats before?
>
> Thanks,
> Susanne, Courtney & the Dane Gang(Zoe, Wilson, Annie & the Rescues)
>
> Life is grand when you love a Dane. Have you licked your Dane today?:P
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Rats
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

>>A question; How do you know that hairless rats don't get
fleas?>>>

I don't know, can fleas be hairless too :)

<<<And, what other criteria would you use to decide on a rat variety
to raise for prey for your dogs?>>>

Well, rats are so easy to raise and produce in mass, it wouldnt be a
major meat in their diet. When I do some trapping I normally get
wood rats and they have fleas. I hate the idea of fleas even coming
or getting close to my house, so trying to find more sources of
rodents. We already get squirrel and rabbit. Any suggestions??

I had a young pup or pups (dont know who got it) last summer that
caught a rat out in the yard. It seemed that they played with a bit
before eating it. Well, short story, I got a really BIG flea
problem after that. Had to wash 10 pups and 2 adults, it takes half
the day and wash once a weeks until the problems was over. Not fun
at all. Sprayed the house and the whole yard and they couldnt come
in the house for awhile.

Thanks,
Susanne, Courtney & the Dane Gang(Zoe, Wilson, Annie & the Rescues)

Life is grand when you love a Dane. Have you licked your Dane
today?:P

Messages in this topic (3)
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8. pig pancreas
Posted by: "Erica" stary_eyed_angel@yahoo.com stary_eyed_angel
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:20 pm ((PDT))

How much pig pancreas would a 45 lb dog get to aid digestion? I'm
trying to find out for a friend. Her dog's TLI keeps coming back
normal but she's still not digesting her food well and is starving no
matter how much she eats. We want to try pig pancreas for her but
need to know about how much she should get daily to aid digestion.
Thanks.

Erica L Canaday

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9a. Re: 7 days without normal poop
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

>He weighs 65#. I figure a leg quarter is just under a pound. Do you
think I should drop down to one a day?
>

Hi.If you feed 2% daily intake,you feed 1.25lb

if you feed 3%,2lb a day.

yassy

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10. Raw-feeder from China needs help£¡£¡£¡£¡10-week-old puppy no poo
Posted by: "cherpapazhou" cherpapazhou@yahoo.com cherpapazhou
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:29 pm ((PDT))

Hey, there! This is Cher from Mainland China. I have been lurking for
a while, but I love this list and enjoy very much reading your posts.
I became a member of raw-feeders early this year and successfully
switched my Pom and Golden to raw. They are doing great!

Ten days ago, we had a new member ¨C a puppy, which I don¡¯t know
exactly how old, but I guess two months old since he has 28 baby teeth
now. I have been feeding raw chicken, beef, duck and pork to him since
the second day. The little guy loves his raw diet so much that he sits
and waits every time I go into the kitchen.

The problem is that his poo seems abnormal ¨C I mean, too little. And
it seems to me his belly is kind of swelling ¨C don¡¯t know how a
puppy¡¯s belly looks like. The last time he pooed was last Friday. So
it¡¯s been nearly three days he hasn¡¯t had any bowel movement. I fed
him three times a day in the first four days and four times a day in
the past few days coz he seems always hungry. However, the more I
feed, the less he poos! Other than that, he looks fine, as playful as
usual.

How come? Should I take him to the vet? But I would rather not coz I
know the minute I tell the vet I feed him raw, the vet will definitely
point his finger to raw!

Any input would be appreciated!Hope you guy can understand my Chinglish!

Cher
A mother of three four-legged kids from China

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12185

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Little-dog sized bones
From: Dawn Taylor
1b. Re: Little-dog sized bones
From: marclre

2.1. Re: throwing up
From: Erika Heckscher
2.2. Re: throwing up
From: girlndocs
2.3. Re: throwing up
From: katkellm

3a. Re: Cats coats not shiney
From: marclre

4a. 7 days without normal poop
From: lsesassy
4b. Re: 7 days without normal poop
From: Andrea
4c. Re: 7 days without normal poop
From: lsesassy
4d. Re: 7 days without normal poop
From: cleavlet
4e. Re: 7 days without normal poop
From: katkellm
4f. Re: 7 days without normal poop
From: katkellm

5a. Re: vets and raw battles
From: A. L. W.

6.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

7a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

8.1. Pork
From: rocketblasther
8.2. Re: Pork
From: bluegracepwd
8.3. Re: Pork
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Raw Feeding--No Bone
From: windmilldairy
9b. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
From: bluegracepwd

10a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: Annaliisa Readman
10b. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: moemahood@aol.com
10c. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: bluegracepwd

11a. rabbits
From: lrosem3
11b. Re: rabbits
From: bluegracepwd

Messages
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1a. Re: Little-dog sized bones
Posted by: "Dawn Taylor" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:03 am ((PDT))

"Dawn,
I was very surprised by the fact that a thigh will last your Pom2-3 days, my Pom eats that per day! Do you think that's too much for her? I'm new here. How long have you been feeding your little ones ground food? The mess associated with raw feeding is really my main concern because my grandson is over and I worry if I'm clean enough with my dogs,because of the pulling and tearing (it gets on their feet, fur).I have considered doing ground for this very reason. My Pom is 11 lbs, my dauschund is 15 lbs.( a little heavy), my yorkie is 5 lbs. They all are enjoying raw.Any suggestions you ave had with your experience with little dogs would be helpful, and anyone else!!!!"

-------

I think the quotes got messed up on this message. I have two littles, but they're not Poms. I've got one Daschund/Chihuahua mix (13 lbs) and one Chihuahua/Min Pin mix (10 lbs). I feed them about 5 ounces a day plus organ meat. I know that sounds like a teeny tiny amount, but they were getting very porky on more food, esp my Chiweenie. Actually, he was just downright fat!

The thighs I got the other day are HUGE. I don't think they're typical, but I got a ton of them. I cut them up into 5 oz pieces and I got about 2.5 days out of each one.

I have had a hard time feeding my little dogs and having them not get fat. I really have to watch how much they eat. I guess they're called "easy keepers."

Oh, and another thing that I found that helps with keeping the weight off my littles is feeding once a day rather than twice. It was just too hard to get meals that are 2.5 ounces and have them well balanced. I think they ended up with too much food and then got fat.

I only feed ground meat if the weather is nasty and they have to eat inside. Otherwise, all three of my dogs (the other is a greyhound) eat outside. The little dogs don't make a mess at all and rarely use their feed on their food. The greyhound can get a bit bloody if he's eating a nice huge bone. I hose him off before he comes inside. I have kids, and I don't worry about the germs. I figure, they get less germs from the dogs' diet than they do at school!

HTH
--------------------------------------------------

Dawn Taylor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Little-dog sized bones
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

"Do you think that's too much for her?

***I'm not Dawn...but no...definitely not. If your poms are healthy keep going. Go by
waistline and ribs rather than weight.***

"it gets on their feet, fur). I have considered doing ground for this very reason."

***Don't. If you do this your little wolves (poms) will miss out on the excellent jaw/teeth/
brain workout they're currently getting with whole chunks of prey - which is an important
part of good rawfeeding Also rest assured your grandchildren will survive the odd speck of
bacteria just fine ;) you can't put em in a bubble and many many people on this list have
anklebiters around during rawfeeding with no worries at all.
Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (7)
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2.1. Re: throwing up
Posted by: "Erika Heckscher" aeriqua@gmail.com jazzeriqua
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:03 am ((PDT))

thank you for your help

Erika

On 10/21/07, katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Erika
> H" <aeriqua@...> wrote:>
> > The other aussie ate all her thigh, then the other thigh,
> > then the rest of the leg...and then proceeded to throw it all up, and
> > re-eat it, and throw it up again.
>
> Hi,
> I don't think that you did anything wrong. I'm thinking that your
> enthusiastic aussie just ate too fast and her tummy, being new to raw
> and not quit up to speed, didn't have the digestive juices there and
> ready to do their job, so up the meat came. She re-ate it and you let
> her do so, so both of you handled the situation just right. It wasn't
> an "i'm sick" vomit, it was an "i need to process this again" vomit.
> While it might seem gross to people, it is just right a for dog. I would
> suggest maybe trying something bigger next time, maybe a chicken
> quarter or half a chicken to slow her down. She won't vomit like this
> all the time, so don't worry that you are in for a lot of mess. KathyM
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (38)
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2.2. Re: throwing up
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:33 pm ((PDT))

> It wasn't an "i'm sick" vomit, it was an "i need to process this
> again" vomit.

I was reading this out loud to my husband while sipping tea and he
chirped, "A tasted-so-good-I-wanna-do-it-again vomit!"

The tea went all over the desk and the monitor.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (38)
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2.3. Re: throwing up
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:46 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "girlndocs" <girlndocs@...> wrote>
> I was reading this out loud to my husband while sipping tea and he
> chirped, "A tasted-so-good-I-wanna-do-it-again vomit!"
>
> The tea went all over the desk and the monitor.
>
Hi Kristin,
As per Laura's recent reminder, all posts that are going to require
that readers have to clean off their monitors MUST be marked with an
FDA (food and drink alert)notation.<G>
KathyM who says geeeez diet pepsi is sticky

Messages in this topic (38)
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3a. Re: Cats coats not shiney
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:04 am ((PDT))

"Any ideas?"

***It's really easy you can basically feed your cats the same as you're feeding your pit...just
smaller. BTW Are you feeding all of them the 'real McCoy', as in true prey model? I ask
because your post suggests to me you may not be. Definitely ditch the useless
supplements - citric acid/parsley/bone meal/lecithin/yeast etc - ugh you don't need any
of em and they're very likely causing irritation. Join rawcat and look at the site already
mentioned.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

Marie-Claire ;)***

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. 7 days without normal poop
Posted by: "lsesassy" lsesassy@yahoo.com lsesassy
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

I am 7 days in to feeding raw to my 7 year old greyhound and am
getting concerned about the poop (or lack thereof). I am feeding
chicken leg quarters twice a day. Dempster is loving the food, no
problems getting him to eat. But he has not had a normal firm poop
yet. First it was diarrhea (twice in the house). So, I fasted him
for a day and then started removing the skin when we resumed. And I
put him on Slippery Elm. Since then he has not had diarrhea in the
house, but his poop is still liquid and only a few drops. He seems
like he is straining too. He squats to poop then moves to a different
spot and squats again, never really pooping just leaving little drops
of liquid. I am worried that he might have a blockage because he is
eating two leg quarters a day and yet nothing is coming out. He does
not seem to be in pain (except when trying to poop) and is still
eating every meal. Is this reason to be concerned?

Laura

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: 7 days without normal poop
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

Is he still acting normal? I think his digestive system is still wonky and so he's trying to go
more often than he really has to. Are you sure you aren't feeding him too much? Two
quarters a day seems like a lot of food for a grey. If he is eating too much it would make
sense that his poo isn't solid.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lsesassy" <lsesassy@...> wrote:
>
> I am 7 days in to feeding raw to my 7 year old greyhound and am
> getting concerned about the poop (or lack thereof). I am feeding
> chicken leg quarters twice a day.

Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: 7 days without normal poop
Posted by: "lsesassy" lsesassy@yahoo.com lsesassy
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:29 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
Are you sure you aren't feeding him too much? Two quarters a day
seems like a lot of food for a grey. If he is eating too much it
would make
sense that his poo isn't solid.
>
> Andrea
>
He weighs 65#. I figure a leg quarter is just under a pound. Do you
think I should drop down to one a day? He is already quite skinny so
I definitely don't want him to lose any weight though.

Laura

Messages in this topic (6)
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4d. Re: 7 days without normal poop
Posted by: "cleavlet" cleavlet@yahoo.com cleavlet
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lsesassy" <lsesassy@...> wrote:

> I am worried that he might have a blockage because he is
> eating two leg quarters a day and yet nothing is coming out.

I gather that raw bones are new to his diet and that can cause loose
stools/diarrhea. Also, in my own estimation, chicken leg quarters
contain quite a bit more bone than the 10% by weight recommended by
this group (see: rawfeeding, Files). Additionally, these weight
bearing leg bones contain marrow - also a likely contributor to his
problem, especially since it's all new to his system.

So, try cutting back on the bones. And remember, balance over time;
you need not balance the meat/bone at every feeding.

Cleavon

Messages in this topic (6)
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4e. Re: 7 days without normal poop
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:47 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cleavlet" <cleavlet@...> wrote:
Also, in my own estimation, chicken leg quarters
> contain quite a bit more bone than the 10% by weight recommended by
> this group (see: rawfeeding, Files).

Hi Cleavon,
Yea, chicken leg quarters do have more than 10% bone, but as you
stated you are trying to achieve balance over time. At the beginning
of the diet heavy on the bone is actually a good thing which is why we
normally recommend that newbies start with chicken breasts, leg
quarters, whole chickens... Since bone helps to keep things firm,
extra bone is a plus for the first week or two- of course, sometimes
for some dogs, stuff comes about that requires fine tuning with
regards to the chicken-remove the skin, or trim the fat... While not
a wonder food, chicken does have edible bone and is not normally a
problem for new dogs and over time-starting a month or so down the
road-- will be balanced out by lots of all meat/mostly meat meals. KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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4f. Re: 7 days without normal poop
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:55 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lsesassy" <lsesassy@...> wrote:
> He weighs 65#. I figure a leg quarter is just under a pound. Do you
> think I should drop down to one a day? He is already quite skinny so
> I definitely don't want him to lose any weight though.

Hi Laura,
Not Andrea, but thought i would offer some input until she has time to
post. You are definielty feeding on the 3% side of his body weight
which may be more food than he can process right now. I think i would
still feed twice a day, i think that is what you are doing , yes?, but
try to feed less total food. Maybe a chicken quarter in the am and a
small bone in breast at night or buy a whole chicken and hack it into
serving size portions. I'd stick closer to a "heavy" pound for now and
see if that gets things straightened out. In a few days if all goes
well, you can gradually increase his food portion to 2lbs again. KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: vets and raw battles
Posted by: "A. L. W." chenneoue@yahoo.com chenneoue
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:36 am ((PDT))

I never thought to ask for someone from another country. That is a
good bit of advice. I am glad it worked out well for you in the end!
And how far south is South for you in Florida? I am in the Tampa area.

Amanda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "raffiangel2" <snazgal@...> wrote:
> I've gone through 4 vets too...by leaving the 4th I was so
> frustrated, I about got nasty and defensive...I asked her...how many
> nutrition classes did you have in vet school....her answer
> was...one..but only an elective...I smiled and left...
> I checked locally again, and found a vet clinic right in my own
> shopping center...asked them if they have any foreign vets...girl
> looked at me like I was nuts...yes she said..Dr ....is from S.
> Africa.
> I asked for an appointment with him.
> My luck he was onsite and had a few minutes to spare.
> I introduced myself and asked point blank...what do you think about
> raw feeding of dogs?
> His response was...'is there anyother way?'....Urekaaaaaaaaaaa yeahhhh
> I was so excited...and we chatted more, telling him of my bad
> experiences with non raw oriented vets....
> He also explained that its moreso the American vets that are anti raw
> because they have never lived and had dogs overseas...America is one
> of the very few countries who even has kibble....so his background is
> in raw...and is anti kibble.
> He has educated the other 4 vets in this office and now they all have
> a better knowledge of it, and from what I've heard, they're also
> converting their patients to raw!!!! yipee....there is hope lol.
> Oh..he also mentioned...because I told him my ex vet told me my dog
> would choke to death on bones....he said..the chances of a dog
> choking are kibble, string, junk they find around lazy households, is
> far greater then a dog choking on the bones we feed them.
> Anyone is South Florida needing a terrific vet...let me know.
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com

Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (120)
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7a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

List members who do not trim their posts will be placed on moderation.

**********PLEASE SIGN YOUR MAILS

This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

********NO MONSTER SIGNATURES PLEASE!
Several lines are ok but nothing over 4 lines please.
(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)

*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
and save money for those folks who must PAY for their Internet by the amount of time they are on line.

Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (10)
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8.1. Pork
Posted by: "rocketblasther" jforbes05@sbcglobal.net rocketblasther
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:46 pm ((PDT))

Hello All,

Quick question, Is pork shoulder roast and pork butt the same thing?

Thanks,
Jim & Sara

Messages in this topic (48)
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8.2. Re: Pork
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

well when I'm cooking a roast, I prefer to cook pork butt. It's a
tastier piece of meat. But it's often a little more expensive than
shoulder.

But basically, the same meat, just from different parts of the animal.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (48)
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8.3. Re: Pork
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:09 pm ((PDT))

No, they aren't the same, but pretty close! Both are excellent food for our
dogs regardless of what they are called.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "rocketblasther" <jforbes05@sbcglobal.net>

Quick question, Is pork shoulder roast and pork butt the same thing?

Messages in this topic (48)
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9a. Raw Feeding--No Bone
Posted by: "windmilldairy" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:21 pm ((PDT))

I butchered a cow, and didn't save any bone. Most of the bone seemed too hard for my dogs.
Can I get by feeding just the beef and no bone to my bulldog and rat terrier?

Thanks

Pat

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Raw Feeding--No Bone
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi Pat,

you definitely need to feed bone. Actually I got a call from one of
my puppy people on the weekend. Their pup is 6 months old and
suffering every day from very loose stools. Turns out they are not
feeding any bone at all. Sigh. So we had a 20 minute review on what
makes up a good raw diet.

Your two dogs need bone, even if it's just in the form of chicken
thighs. And really, they need bone daily, although the odd day of
just meat will be ok too.

cheers

Jane
www.bluegrace.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "Annaliisa Readman" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:21 pm ((PDT))

We have been feeding raw for about five weeks, since we adopted our boxer puppy. We haven't had any problems. She is a happy healthy pup, who is growing steadily and has a shiny coat. Our only issue is the horrified response we get from people, including my in-laws, when they are informed that we are feeding her raw (I have not been brave enough to tell my vet). A dinner party guest the other night was a nurse at a veterinary clinic and she said that they see dogs all the time who have gotten salmonella or other illnesses from eating raw food. I certainly couldn't refute her first-hand experience, but I assured her that we feed our dog high-quality meat and then explained how dogs are equipped to digest raw meat. Has anyone had experience with their dogs getting sick from their meat? Just curious.

Annaliisa, Drew and puppy Laila
_________________________________________________________________
Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

Messages in this topic (20)
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10b. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:53 pm ((PDT))

A dinner party guest the other night was a nurse at a veterinary clinic and she said that they see dogs all the time who have gotten salmonella or other illnesses from eating raw food. I certainly couldn't refute her first-hand experience, but I assured her that we feed our dog high-quality meat and then explained how dogs are equipped to digest raw meat. Has anyone had experience with their dogs getting sick from their meat?
You know?I hear new people ask this question frequently.? I usually tell people that we switched because we needed the highest quality food because one of mine has allergies and I didn't want her to be on steriods for her entire life.? As time goes on, especially with all the recalls, more people are curious than horrified.?

I know lots of dogs that are fed raw and not one ever had samonella.? I don't know where these dogs are coming from....maybe they get it from eating meat that wasn't handled properly?

My dogs have never gotten sick from food -- except kibble -- Molly has lost hair, gotten staph infections and had severe allergies when she ate kibble....

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (20)
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10c. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi Maureen,

we've heard on the list many times over the years about diagnoses of
salmonella and the like by vets, only to later find out that the dog
or cat, has some very serious problem that the vet overlooked and
did not treat, because he/she was so bent on blaming bacteria. Dogs
and cats have died because vets have blamed the raw feeding and not
treated the emergency that was actually there.

So I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is happening at the vet
clinic that woman works at.

I had a bitch with an obstruction a few years ago. The vet blamed
bones in the diet. At least he had the courage to apologise when he
removed the tennis ball from her intestine. He was quick to jump to
conclusion, but quick to apologise when he knew he was wrong. Mind
you, most vets aren't like that.

It's probably going to be impossible to refute that sort of
allegation at a dinner party without looking terribly defensive.
You could use the other approach of saying, "yes, we're trying to
see how quickly we can kill our dogs on this diet. So far, we're
incredibly unsuccessful!"

Good luck.

- Jane

Messages in this topic (20)
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________________________________________________________________________

11a. rabbits
Posted by: "lrosem3" lrosem3@yahoo.com lrosem3
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

are rabbits a good source to feed to my dogs? what is the best way,,,whole,or cut up, or
maybe even gound up?

Messages in this topic (5)
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11b. Re: rabbits
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi ?

check out the archives for lots of information on rabbits:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawfeeding

- Jane

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12184

There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. vets and raw battles
From: raffiangel2

2a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: Cindy Marabito
2b. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: moemahood@aol.com
2c. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: woofwoofgrrl
2d. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: michael@brooksweb.org
2e. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
From: Finster Boy

3a. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
From: Doguefan@aol.com
3c. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
From: Renate

4a. Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
From: sfed57
4b. Re: Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
From: moemahood@aol.com

5. Re:
From: droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net

6a. Cats coats not shiney
From: lovemypitbull99
6b. Re: Cats coats not shiney
From: bluegracepwd
6c. Re: Cats coats not shiney
From: Casey Post

7.1. throwing up
From: Erika H
7.2. Re: throwing up
From: Giselle
7.3. Re: throwing up
From: katkellm

8. Razor sharp turkey bones
From: jennifer_hell

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. vets and raw battles
Posted by: "raffiangel2" snazgal@aol.com raffiangel2
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:53 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!

I've gone through 4 vets too...by leaving the 4th I was so
frustrated, I about got nasty and defensive...I asked her...how many
nutrition classes did you have in vet school....her answer
was...one..but only an elective...I smiled and left...
I checked locally again, and found a vet clinic right in my own
shopping center...asked them if they have any foreign vets...girl
looked at me like I was nuts...yes she said..Dr ....is from S.
Africa.
I asked for an appointment with him.
My luck he was onsite and had a few minutes to spare.
I introduced myself and asked point blank...what do you think about
raw feeding of dogs?
His response was...'is there anyother way?'....Urekaaaaaaaaaaa yeahhhh
I was so excited...and we chatted more, telling him of my bad
experiences with non raw oriented vets....
He also explained that its moreso the American vets that are anti raw
because they have never lived and had dogs overseas...America is one
of the very few countries who even has kibble....so his background is
in raw...and is anti kibble.
He has educated the other 4 vets in this office and now they all have
a better knowledge of it, and from what I've heard, they're also
converting their patients to raw!!!! yipee....there is hope lol.
Oh..he also mentioned...because I told him my ex vet told me my dog
would choke to death on bones....he said..the chances of a dog
choking are kibble, string, junk they find around lazy households, is
far greater then a dog choking on the bones we feed them.
Anyone is South Florida needing a terrific vet...let me know.

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "Cindy Marabito" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

I recently had a trauma experience with my cat who was attacked and
had to be rushed to the emergency room. I treat homeopathically and
also have a conventional vet who respects my raw feeding and
homeopathy...she is even on our raw feeders list. However, this
situation called for immediate measures and I went to the hospital
right up the road from my house on the highway. I was hesitant about
disclosing our diet and getting the usual speech and eye roll.
However, the doctor who had a full waiting room of Science Diet, was
very understanding and even allowed me to bring Fernando some Arnica.
He was phenomenal about not rushing to surgery which would have
probably been an error and opted for the wait and see. Fernando was
pretty bad off, but was allowed to come home that night. Dr. Meyer
respected that the TLC Fern would get at home would probably do
wonders for his recovery and he was right.

We did have to do some antibiotics and Fern wasn't eating. I was
force feeding him a homemade broth supplemented with baby food, but
finally quit to see if he'd eat on his own. He wasn't eating, so
willing to try anything, I let Dr. Meyer give him A/D. I can bend a
little, too. After less than a day, though, Fern wanted back on his
raw...and wanted to eat it on his own! The point of all of this is
the vet, even though he's not a proponent of raw or homeopathy, told
me it's only because he's unfamiliar with that territory. We were
able to come to a compromise, get the cat well and both learn some
new things...mine being that not all conventional vets are
meanies...I have had quite a few "unsavory" experiences as you can
imagine in rescue. Finally, Dr. Meyer had a laugh with me..he said I
knew Fernando wasn't a cat food cat from his x-rays and his bone
density...when I got home, I realized he'd given raw feeding sort of
a left handed compliment. I believe we are experiencing a wave of the
future when vets and us raw feeders will someday meet on the same
page. Cindy

Messages in this topic (17)
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2b. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:35 am ((PDT))

Maybe add some green tripe, if you aren't already doing so -- it contains enzymes that will help
his system break down his food easier.? Feed? low fat -- chicken breast and rabbit.? Then start adding fat
back in gradually -- his body will get back into balance, it just takes time.

Vets can be idiots.? I adopted a dog out a few weeks ago that was immune system compromised when
I pulled her out of the pound -- she was fighting kennel cough and had two bad teeth.? The family that
took her brought her to their vet and now she is eating eukanuba because the vet said raw was bad to feed
a dog that is sick....ugh!? Had I known they were going to do that I would never had adopted them the dog.

?Maureen

Maureen- From your mouth to God's ears!!
My dog was diagnosed with Colitis today. I'm in the process of
researching it, but a 'bland diet' is the recomendation. I just can't
quit the raw. I have to find a way to incorporate it in such a way that
it doesn't aggravate the colitis.
I believe it's stress related. Not the raw food like the vet said.

I'll find a way to get on top of this one!
Thanx, Patricia

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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2c. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

I'm in favor of a starting with a generic answer - "Oh, he gets a really
high quality diet so I'm sure it's not his regular food" and hope the
vet doesn't persue it futher. If you've seen the vet enough for other
issues and they know you are a "good" dog person, they probably won't
push further.

Christine

Finster Boy wrote:
>
>
> Thanx Casey- You're so right when you wrote: "I need them to see the
> animal, not the diet."
> On those rare occasions when you have to see a vet in an emergency,
> and the emergency is a gastro-intestinal issue,what do you say when the
> vet asks, "What have you been feeding him?"
>
> Thanx for the support!

Messages in this topic (17)
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2d. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "michael@brooksweb.org" michael@brooksweb.org newyawkyanx
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

Patricia- First of all, if you continue to see this guy, ask him to back up his assertions! Sounds like he just threw some words out there with no support and expected you to just take them on faith because "he is the expert." It has been my experience, as well as much learning from this list, that vets are NOT nutritionists ... and this could be an opportunity to teach him.
-michael

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:48:55 -0000, Finster Boy wrote
> room, he chided me for the raw diet.

> is causing my dogs's bloody diarreah and discomfort. He said he can't
> digest fat. When he gave me the print out for the I/D and we looked at
> the ingredient list, guess what was in it? Animal fat!
> The vet also blames the variety: switching from poultry, lamb, venison,
> beef as a contributing factor. I thought variety was a good thing.
>
> Here's the real ridiculous part: when I tried to explain I want to feed
> my dog a natural diet like in the wild, he said well, he's not in the
> wild, he domesticated. I asked if that changes their digestive tract
> operation? He says YES, definately. Can you believe this guy?

> Thanx,
> Patricia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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2e. Re: How do you deal w/ vets that blame raw diet
Posted by: "Finster Boy" finster_boy1@yahoo.com finster_boy1
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Thanx, Michael- I will definately do that.....with the NEXT vet- I
can't go back to this guy.
Patricia

Messages in this topic (17)
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3a. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))

nikkisevy@... wrote:
>
> I am inquiring about feeding a pregnant girl. She weighs
80 lbs
> before pregnancy. When and how much do I increase the food. Are
there any
> foods I should be concerned about feeding her?
*****
What are you feeding now?

Generally speaking although of course each bitch will make different
demands, if the raw menu you are feeding comprises both protein and
body part variety, you can continue to feed the same but more of it.
Include an appropriate amount of dietary bone and organs and expect
that at some point as your girl has less room for a big bellyfull that
she'll reject bones and look for more meat, including organs.

I'm sure others will give you better answers...often posting on
weekends results in few responses.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))

Hello and Congrats!? The first month you can feed the same amount that you have been as long as it seemed sufficient to keep her in a good healthy weight.? Mind you, some girls get a little nautious around week 3, and they may start to get picky.? If she does not eat one meal, don't stress...pick it up and try again later.? My female mastiff went off bone really early?? She had always eaten chicken, but when she was prego she would not touch the stuff!
She got very picky and I found I had to cut a lot of the meat up to entice her to eat.? She wasvery tired and "mopey".? She wouldalways eat the red meat, any kind of heart, and she LOVED the organs just like I was told.?
The best advice I got, was to give her a large dish with great variety and let her eat what she wanted.? She would pick through and get all the t hings that enticed her that particular meal time...often the next feeding she chose something totally different.? She ate very little bone, but some time after she did eat chicken again. LOL
I really try and focus so much on variety. I wish I could afford more buffalo and venison, but in So. Cal that is very expensive for dogs that are eating 3 and 4 pounds a day!? LOL? But I do feed fish (salmon, tuna(their favorite), mackeral), pork, beef (scrap, cheek meat, tripe/organ/meat blend), chicken, turkey(ground, necks), whole cut goat, lamb breats, chicken organ mixture, GTT tripe/gullet/trachea mix.
Just don't stress at her pickiness.??It goes off and on, and she will get all that she needs. Good Luck!

Chelsea
www.bruinbordeaux.com

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: help!!! we're pregnant and not sure how/what to feed
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Wow, your mastiff sounds just like Bella, my shih tzu.(5 weeks preg). I
love your idea of giving a dish of bits of everything. I will try that. AT
this point all she really wants to eat is pork kidney, though I did manage
to get a lamb chop into her by feeding it to her bit by bit. And she's ok
with liver. Won't touch chicken at all.
Renate

On 10/20/07, Doguefan@aol.com <Doguefan@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello and Congrats!? The first month you can feed the same amount that you
> have been as long as it seemed sufficient to keep her in a good healthy
> weight.? Mind you, some girls get a little nautious around week 3, and they
> may start to get picky.? If she does not eat one meal, don't stress...pick
> it up and try again later.? My female mastiff went off bone really early??
> She had always eaten chicken, but when she was prego she would not touch the
> stuff!
> She got very picky and I found I had to cut a lot of the meat up to entice
> her to eat.?
> .
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi All, almost a month on raw now and doing great! The girls have been
mainly on chicken quarters but we are introducing new things now, the
pork shoulders went over great! A friend stoped by today with a giant
moose heart (the thing is bigger than my head!) and some deer antlers.
I was wondering if the heart should be given as an entire meal or just
a little here and there as a snack, or is it just our preference?
Also, should it be frozen for a while first or can I just give it to
them as is?

Thanks from Shawna, Ruby, and Raven

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sfed57" <sfed57@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if the heart should be given as an entire meal
> or just a little here and there as a snack, or is it just
> our preference?

I would add just a little to a few meals a week now and gradually
increase the amount over time. I give my 2 Great Danes abuot 3/4lb
each of beef heart two or three times a week as an addition to a meal.

> Also, should it be frozen for a while first or can I just give it to
> them as is?

It would probably be ok to feed now but many here would suggest
freezing for 2 or 3 weeks first because of parasites. I suggest
freezing simply to give your dogs another 2 or 3 weeks of adjusting to
the raw diet before giving them such rich meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Moose Heart, need to be frozen?
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

I was wondering if the heart should be given as an entire meal
> or just a little here and there as a snack, or is it just
> our preference?

I feed beef heart as a meal all the time.? My dogs love it -- they love everything though....; )

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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5. Re:
Posted by: "droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net" droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net droghedabullmastiff
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

I have been feeding RAW only a few months to my Chihuahua puppy and 3 year old Bullmastiff bitch. On Oct.13 the Bullmastiff had her first litter , 8 females 1 male. This is the strongest litter I have seen in 30 years of breeding at 4 days old they were climbing over the 6 inch wall of the whelping box!! The wall is now 12 inches high and so far they haven't made it over the top again.no c-section needed and she has plenty of milk. I will never go back to commercial dog food!!!!!! RoseTRhe _m,_._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Cats coats not shiney
Posted by: "lovemypitbull99" lovemypitbull99@yahoo.com lovemypitbull99
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:26 pm ((PDT))

++++++++++Mod note: please sign all emails ++++++++++++++++

My cats have been on raw diet for a month. Since then, I've noticed
their coats aren't shiney anymore. Any ideas? Am I missing soomething
in their food?
They get citric acid(tiny bit), parsley, bone meal, and a bit of
lecithin granules and nutritional yeast as added nutrients.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Cats coats not shiney
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi ?

rather than missing something, I'd suggest removing the citric acid,
the parsley, the bone meal, the lecithin granules, and the nutritional
yeast.

Instead, feed real food such as chicken drumsticks, sardines, egg, etc.

Real food - not substitutes is the key.

regards,

Jane

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Cats coats not shiney
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:37 pm ((PDT))

> My cats have been on raw diet for a month. Since then, I've noticed
> their coats aren't shiney anymore. Any ideas? Am I missing soomething
> in their food?
> They get citric acid(tiny bit), parsley, bone meal, and a bit of
> lecithin granules and nutritional yeast as added nutrients.
***************

Um, wow.

I'm guessing that you're following some kind of "recipe"?

Do yourself (and your cats) a huge favor and head on over to

www.rawfedcats.org.

That'll help you ditch the recipe and feed real food -
and you'll see an improvement in your cats' health for it.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

7.1. throwing up
Posted by: "Erika H" aeriqua@gmail.com jazzeriqua
Date: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:34 pm ((PDT))

++++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++++

Help?? Just started raw feeding today with 2 aussies and a cockerpoo
mix, with chicken thighs. One aussie really couldn't figure out what
to do with the thigh. The cockerpoo got a chcken leg, and ate about
half of it. The other aussie ate all her thigh, then the other thigh,
then the rest of the leg...and then proceeded to throw it all up, and
re-eat it, and throw it up again. This happened about 4 times, until
I threw away the last throwup of skin and a few bones. What did I do
wrong?? Did I jump in too fast? Was there a warning in all the
moderator's messages that I missed by just glancing through them. I'm
really hoping not to be up all night with a vomiting dog. She seems
fine now... thank you for any help you can give...

Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________

7.2. Re: throwing up
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:14 am ((PDT))

Hi, Erika!
Too much new, all at once, is my guess.

While feeding whole prey model isn't rocket science, there are um,
guidelines you can use to make the introductory process easier on your dogs,
and yourself.

I'll post some links to archived messages and websites for you to print out
and review, so you can make a more focused plan to introduce raw to your
dogs;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://mypetcarnivore.com/dogs_eating.htm

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758*

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336*

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141648
post# 141648
TC and keep us posted on your progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/21/07, Erika H <aeriqua@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ++++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++++
>
> Help?? Just started raw feeding today with 2 Aussies and a Cockapoo
> mix, with chicken thighs.
>

<snip>
>

thank you for any help you can give...
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________

7.3. Re: throwing up
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:23 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Erika H" <aeriqua@...> wrote:>
> The other aussie ate all her thigh, then the other thigh,
> then the rest of the leg...and then proceeded to throw it all up, and
> re-eat it, and throw it up again.

Hi,
I don't think that you did anything wrong. I'm thinking that your
enthusiastic aussie just ate too fast and her tummy, being new to raw
and not quit up to speed, didn't have the digestive juices there and
ready to do their job, so up the meat came. She re-ate it and you let
her do so, so both of you handled the situation just right. It wasn't
an "i'm sick" vomit, it was an "i need to process this again" vomit.
While it might seem gross to people, it is just right a for dog. I would
suggest maybe trying something bigger next time, maybe a chicken
quarter or half a chicken to slow her down. She won't vomit like this
all the time, so don't worry that you are in for a lot of mess. KathyM

Messages in this topic (35)
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________________________________________________________________________

8. Razor sharp turkey bones
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:40 am ((PDT))

Ouch! I pierced my finger through a plastic bag, picking up my dog's
poop (sorry, TMI!)this AM. There was a needle sized bone in it, that
managed to pierce the bag and my finger and draw blood, lol. It's
impressive how our dogs' digestive systems work! I'd have thought
something that can pierce my skin could harm my dog. Fascinating!

Jennifer with Mandy (who loved the turkey leg the night before!)

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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