Feed Pets Raw Food

Monday, November 19, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12295

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Intro- new member
From: celiageorge77
1b. Intro- new member
From: celiageorge77
1c. Re: Intro- new member
From: Sandee Lee
1d. Re: Intro- new member
From: Tracy P-C

2a. Re: salmon
From: Caren OConnor

3a. Excessive panting
From: sltahoek9s
3b. Re: Excessive panting
From: temy1102

4a. Re: Raw and Eclampsia
From: Tracey Gale

5a. Trichinosis
From: Jolene Nelson
5b. Re: Trichinosis
From: Erika
5c. Re: Trichinosis
From: Sandee Lee
5d. Re: Trichinosis
From: Casey Post
5e. Re: Trichinosis
From: Jolene Nelson
5f. Re: Trichinosis
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Oregon sources for raw food.
From: Tracy P-C

7a. Re: Bad meat??
From: trayc2244
7b. Re: Bad meat??
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski
7c. Re: Bad meat??
From: carnesbill
7d. Re: Bad meat??
From: trayc2244

8a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Probiotic
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: kind of off topic
From: carnesbill
9b. Re: kind of off topic
From: temy1102
9c. Re: kind of off topic
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: How to tell if it is any good?
From: carnesbill

11a. Re: Chew treats?
From: temy1102


Messages
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1a. Intro- new member
Posted by: "celiageorge77" celiageorge77@yahoo.com celiageorge77
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:07 pm ((PST))

Hello All,
I am new to the group. I have been feeding my wheaten terrier puppy a raw diet since I got
him (the breeder also fed raw before I got him). His health is superb. Lots of energy, very
pleasant, friendly disposition. Between meals, Seamus loves to chew on nylabones and frozen
carrots. I am curious to get your thoughts on helping with bad breath. By no means do I
expect to have a dog with wonderful breath. Seamus's is particularly bad, especially right
after he's woken from a nap. I suppose I would equate it to people morning breath! ;) In any
case, any suggestions are appreciated. I look forward to learning more about the benefits of
feeding raw and plan to dive into the archives to read up.
Thanks,
Celia and Seamus

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Intro- new member
Posted by: "celiageorge77" celiageorge77@yahoo.com celiageorge77
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:07 pm ((PST))

Hello All,
I am new to the group. I have been feeding my wheaten terrier puppy a raw diet since I got
him (the breeder also fed raw before I got him). His health is superb. Lots of energy, very
pleasant, friendly disposition. Between meals, Seamus loves to chew on nylabones and frozen
carrots. I am curious to get your thoughts on helping with bad breath. By no means do I
expect to have a dog with wonderful breath. Seamus's is particularly bad, especially right
after he's woken from a nap. I suppose I would equate it to people morning breath! ;) In any
case, any suggestions are appreciated. I look forward to learning more about the benefits of
feeding raw and plan to dive into the archives to read up.
Thanks,
Celia and Seamus

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Intro- new member
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:52 pm ((PST))

What exactly are you feeding, Celia?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "celiageorge77" <celiageorge77@yahoo.com>

I am new to the group. I have been feeding my wheaten terrier puppy a raw
diet since I got
him (the breeder also fed raw before I got him). His health is superb. Lots
of energy, very
pleasant, friendly disposition. Between meals, Seamus loves to chew on
nylabones and frozen
carrots. I am curious to get your thoughts on helping with bad breath.

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Intro- new member
Posted by: "Tracy P-C" tpreston721@yahoo.com tpreston721
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:56 pm ((PST))

What are you feeding him? How old is he??? Could this be bad breath from losing teeth??? I know my dogs got real stinky breath when they lost their teeth - I fed turkey legs, frozen carrots, apples slices and watermelon to my dogs when they were teething - Hope this helps
Tracy & girls

celiageorge77 <celiageorge77@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello All,
I am new to the group. I have been feeding my wheaten terrier puppy a raw diet since I got
him (the breeder also fed raw before I got him). His health is superb. Lots of energy, very
pleasant, friendly disposition. Between meals, Seamus loves to chew on nylabones and frozen
carrots. I am curious to get your thoughts on helping with bad breath. By no means do I
expect to have a dog with wonderful breath. Seamus's is particularly bad, especially right
after he's woken from a nap. I suppose I would equate it to people morning breath! ;) In any
case, any suggestions are appreciated. I look forward to learning more about the benefits of
feeding raw and plan to dive into the archives to read up.
Thanks,
Celia and Seamus


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Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: salmon
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:07 pm ((PST))

Sandy -
My Cavaliers love salmon when they get it which isn't all THAT often because it's rather expensive for me. I try to feed fish each Friday, though, remembering that my dogs are Catholic even though it's not Lent:)
Happy feeding and don't worry one bit about salmon, unless you're worrying about the cost:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

beaulah_2001us <beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought salmon could kill dogs if they fed on it. If so I assume
there is something I dont know about feeding salmon to dogs. Can
someone please enlighten me?
Sandy


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Messages in this topic (13)
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3a. Excessive panting
Posted by: "sltahoek9s" crazy4k9@aol.com sltahoek9s
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:47 pm ((PST))

My two dogs have only been on raw for 2 weeks now. This all started because I took my
13 month old english lab to visit her breeder and questioned why she seemed so small.
Compared to her siblings, sire and dam she is much more petite in overall size. I raised
her from 8 weeks on Timberwolf Organics dry and kept her at a healthy lean weight. From
about 6 months on she was only eating about 2 cups a day. Well her siblings were all fed
6 cups of Iams a day. So her breeder told me she wasn't undersized but malnurished. He
said she didn't have enough excess weight to convince her body it could keep growing
more, but he assured me that it was reversible. So I decided to give his idea a shot, but
since I was going to be feeding her more I decided to take the plunge and go raw so at
least she would be eating an excess of healthy food. The visit was a month ago and she
has gained nearly 10 lbs. She isn't fat (like her breeders dogs...whoever decided show line
labs should be HEAVY to show well i'll never understand) but she isn't lean anymore. I'm
feeding her chicken right now. She usually has a half a chicken a day. That's about 4-5 %
ideal weight. I figure she should be between 50-55 lbs.

Since the weight gain, she seems to pant a lot more. Before raw, my 4 year old GSD was
always my temperature gauge. Now the lab pants a lot, especially when in the car or at
night when in her dog bed. Panting used to mean upset stomach to me so I would take
her out frequently in the middle of the night and all she would do is pee. After she pees
she often comes back in and continues panting. No panting if she lays down outside
though. Any thoughts? Does she have a fever or something? It hasn't been every night,
but does happen frequently. When staying with my sister, I opened the window and she
stopped panting when the room cooled a little more.

The other big issue is her excessive urination. She wasn't having any house training issues
since a puppy until I switched her. Now she has to pee all the time. She doesn't always
sleep through the night anymore. On 4 different occasions she's peed before I could get
her out the back door. Is there something I should change in her diet? Could she have a
bladder infection? I really don't want to take her to the vet for this cause I already know
my vet is anti-raw.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

-Tammy C.-

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Excessive panting
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:58 pm ((PST))

How old is your lab now? Her panting could be a symptom of an issue
that is not related to her diet - if you're very concerned, you could
take her to the vet and not mention her diet at all and see what they
have to say. If she's not fully mature yet, well young dogs can go
through phases and that might account for her nightly accidents.

-Tammy & Grover

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Raw and Eclampsia
Posted by: "Tracey Gale" whirlwind32980@yahoo.com whirlwind32980
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:47 pm ((PST))

Hiya my bitch went off her whole bones when her pups were bout a week or so old. I then used chicken carcasses (most of the meat removed) and ground them up into a boney mince, she then wolfed it down. i also used to give her goats milk mixed with two or three egg yolks, with some safflower oil, warming it slightly. I still give her this milk mix when we are at dog shows, just gives them a nutritious, rich in energy drink. It will also help to increase her lactation so that hopefully she will have plenty of milk for pups. My bitch had 9 pups, with no extra help. Hope that helps. Tracey
ps it can be very difficult to tell how many pups exactly are on a ultrasound, due to the way they all sit sometimes etc


----- Original Message ----
From: Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 5:44:03 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Raw and Eclampsia

Bella who was having a very picky time during her pregnancy is continuing
that way. She eats lots of kidney and heart, a bit of liver and teeny tiny
amounts of chicken or pork (if at all possible, she won't). Anyway, she has
4 puppies, all growing great,and now 9 days old, but last night I had to
make an emergency run to the vet because Bella developed eclampsia. She was
treated and is fine for now, and I have a syringe of calcium to administer
if needed. The vet is pushing to put her onto canned food - she gobbled a
heap last night and now won't go near it (she developed a nasty case of
diarrhea) and refuses the kibble she used to eat. Also, she has lost a
bunch of hair on the flank - I gently picked out a bunch of matts and there
is no hair left.. The vet also wants me to hand-feed the puppies with milk
replacer.

I really need help now deciding what to do. I know there is a calcium
problem, but is this picky diet doing to make it worse? Do I let her
continue to be so picky over food (she is eating virtually no bone) although
she is willing to eat canned tuna and canned salmon so there is a bit of
fish bone. I can't wait her out without harming her health. I've been
feeding her 3 times a day, should I increase the frequency? Do I really
have to remove the pups? They are definitely not keen on milk replacer.
And frankly I'm not too keen on listening to Bella screech outside the
dining room door for hours on end. I've gotten to the point that I feel
like I can't trust anything the vet tells me. (she did an ultra sound on
Bella and told me there were 2 babies, possibly a third, but there were
actually 5 - one very tiny died a day after birth).

Thank you for any advice

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Trichinosis
Posted by: "Jolene Nelson" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:05 pm ((PST))


It looks like we've got an *almost* confirmed case of Trichinosis here in Grand Cayman. The only thing the dog ingested which could have carried it would have been some US imported pig ears.

I posted on this dog a few months ago when symptoms started and to date all tests have come back unremarkable.

Now she's passed which appears to be a Trichinosis worm and eggs.

Three weeks ago she developed paralysis and irregular heartbeat. She could not eliminate on her own and is only now able to sit up sometimes without assistance.

IF this is Trichinosis I can't begin to think what this means for those of us feeding raw. All the meat is frozen for import so I guess that actually doesn't kill it!

Any help appreciated we're very much at a loss right now.

Thanks,

Jolene


Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs

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Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs


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Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:31 pm ((PST))

Holley C**p! Please someone give input on this! I thought all US pig meat purchased that was intended for human consumption was tested for the Trich? Any input is appreciated.

Thanks


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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5c. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:30 pm ((PST))

While this dog's illness is really sad, there is no need to panic. At this
point there are no facts....we don't know if the dog has trich or where it
came from if she does.

Look at the statistics.....Trich has not been an issue in the US for many
years. In 2000, the prevalence of trich in US commercial pork was 0.007%.

Focus on the 10,000 members of this list, most feeding raw, most feeding
pork with no issues at all.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Erika" <Erika@redangelbordeaux.com>

> Holley C**p! Please someone give input on this! I thought all US pig meat
purchased that was intended for human consumption was tested for the Trich?
Any input is appreciated.

Messages in this topic (6)
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5d. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:41 pm ((PST))

> Look at the statistics.....Trich has not been an issue in the US for many
> years. In 2000, the prevalence of trich in US commercial pork was 0.007%.

My first thought was that if they were smoked pig ears, they wouldn't have
been frozen and possibly (probably?) not smoked to human standards...

But the Cayman Islands have rats and rats are a known carrier of
trichinosis, so I'm not so sure that US pork is the only possible suspect,
here. If the dog ate a rat...

Casey


Messages in this topic (6)
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5e. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Jolene Nelson" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

The pig ears were raw, not smoked and very very frozen.

The dog lives inside and didn't come into contact with any rat much less eat one. Her first instance of any issue was in August and it has only gotten worse since then.

Every other test has come back negative. We are still waiting to find somewhere that will test for Trich. As for now every lab/University we have contacted said they do not have the facilities to test for it.

And Sandy, I appreciate you saying not to panic and I wasn't trying to say that panic was warranted. However, saying "let's focus on the other people who feed raw without any issue" seems to invalidate the fact that this IS a very real problem if only for this one little dog in the Cayman Islands. Is the fact that this is only affecting one dog not enough?

I would appreciate if anyone has any suggestions as to an alternative which may mimic the symptoms that we may not have tested for already? I'm not too eager to jump on the bandwagon that this is Trichinosis as it means bad things for my dogs but if that's what it is then....

Thanks,

Jo

Casey Post <mikken@neo.rr.com> wrote:

> Look at the statistics.....Trich has not been an issue in the US for many
> years. In 2000, the prevalence of trich in US commercial pork was 0.007%.

My first thought was that if they were smoked pig ears, they wouldn't have
been frozen and possibly (probably?) not smoked to human standards...

But the Cayman Islands have rats and rats are a known carrier of
trichinosis, so I'm not so sure that US pork is the only possible suspect,
here. If the dog ate a rat...

Casey




Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs


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Messages in this topic (6)
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5f. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:57 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jolene Nelson
<imperial_bloodlines@...> wrote:
>
>
> It looks like we've got an *almost* confirmed case of
> Trichinosis here in Grand Cayman.

I don't think you are even close to confirming a case of Trich. You
have a dog that is sick. You have eliminated some possiblities and
for now you are calling it thrich for no other reason than you don't
know what else to call it. That is far far from proving anything.

> The only thing the dog ingested which could have carried it
> would have been some US imported pig ears.

I promise you that your dog did NOT catch trich from eating a pig
ear from the US.

> I posted on this dog a few months ago when symptoms started and
> to date all tests have come back unremarkable.

As will this one. What will you call it next?

> Three weeks ago she developed paralysis and irregular
> heartbeat. She could not eliminate on her own and is only now
> able to sit up sometimes without assistance.

I'm sorry your dog is sick. Hopefully you will soon find out what
it is.

> IF this is Trichinosis I can't begin to think what this means
> for those of us feeding raw. All the meat is frozen for import
> so I guess that actually doesn't kill it!

Don't get all excited because that is not the problem with your
dog. If it happens to be, he didn't get it from the pig ear.

> Any help appreciated we're very much at a loss right now.

I'm sure its got to be rough to have a dog that is sick that long,
particularly since you don't know what's wrong with it. Good luck
and keep us posted.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: Oregon sources for raw food.
Posted by: "Tracy P-C" tpreston721@yahoo.com tpreston721
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:31 pm ((PST))

Leanne
You can have him go the the store and buy a few un-enhanced chickens, cut them up into quarters (freeze if space is an issue) - Then he can feed them as he normally would - There are a few "natural" stores in the Portland area if you are really wanting to feed packaged - I would look up BRAVO, Columbia River, Darwins, Nature's Variety on the web and they should be able to give locations where they are sold -

Good Luck
Tracy & girls

Leanne <l_parker@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Anybody in the Portland Oregon area who can help me source some raw
food? I live out East but my husband and our raw-fed Greyhound are
staying with family in BEAVERTON for 10 days at Xmas time. Can anyone
point me in the direction of any suppliers where we can get a small 10
day supply? Raw chicken bones (rib cages) would be great, or
prepackaged, meat/ veg combo would be easiest to store etc.

Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks,
Leanne


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Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:56 pm ((PST))

Well the deal is that I had some deer meat that was frozen, but the
freezer malfunctioned and some of the meat defrosted just a little not
all the way through, but it has a bad smell now. Would it be okay to
still feed that to the dog??

Tracy

Messages in this topic (8)
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7b. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

this summer, my parents brought me a deer leg, with some other stuff, and never told me. It had been frozen for like 2 years, so it was a rock. Well, i didn't know it was there, and we left to go on vacation. 2 days later, my mom asked about it, and i frantically called my pet sitter, and she was like, i wondered what smelled!
It was only a little dethawed, and the cats had already started eating it, so she put it in my freezer, and i fed it to my dogs when i got home. They were fine, not even any loose poop. So, i guess, it depends on your comfort level. Dogs will bury their meat and come back to it, so i think they will be ok. It's more a matter of will you be ok.
mallory


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Messages in this topic (8)
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7c. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:

> Would it be okay to still feed that to the dog??

I would feed it. I have fed my dogs rotten meat several times. All
of it from ziplocks. A couple of months ago I got some meat from
freecycyle. The man that gave it to me told me his freezer
intermittantly going off and he didn't know if the meat was good or
bad. Well when I thawed it out it smelled terribly rotten. I fed it
anyway for 3 seperate meals. There was no problem with either of the
dogs. They were all sealed up real good. Dogs have tough digestive
systems. They ate it like it was fresh meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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7d. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm ((PST))

Thanks so much everyone. It is a lot of meat and I didn't want it to
be wasted. I wasn't at all comfortable feeding him rotten meat, but I
figured dogs do it all the time, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Thanks agian. You guys were a big help.

Tracy

Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Probiotic
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:
>
> when giving antibodics you are killing their
> good bacteria and
> have to give them their good bugs back - do you have to do this
> with dogs as well?

No, they will grow back.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: kind of off topic
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beaulah_2001us"
<beaulah_2001us@...> wrote:
>
> How long can I leave raw food out of fridge for her? 1 hour
> or a little longer?

You can leave it out a lot longer than an hour but for your purposes
of teaching her to eat in her crate, I wouldn't give her any longer
than about 15 or 20 minutes then take the food up until next meal. No
between meal snacks or treats.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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9b. Re: kind of off topic
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:58 pm ((PST))

All my dogs, including fosters who are now gone, have been trained to
eat in their crates. I say, "Go home," and toss their food into the
crates and they follow it. I leave them there for about 15-20
minutes, and if they've stopped eating, I let them out, put the food
in the fridge, and do it all over again next mealtime. Eventually,
I'll start saying "go home" before I put the food in their crates, and
wait until they go in by themselves and then reward them with the
food. Some of my dogs will whine to let me know they're finished (or
that they don't like today's menu...) and some of them will just snooze.

When I had a pair of 3 month olds, I fed them 3 times a day with the
same method. After a couple of days, those little guys had the
routine down pat. EVERY time I said "go home," they'd get either a
meal or a treat. The boy pup would even try to squeeze into the
smaller crates for the little dogs after he finished dinner to see if
I'd reward him.

If any of them has trouble focusing on the food in the beginning, I'll
open the door and hand-feed them to encourage them until they feel
comfortable enough to eat in there.

-Tammy

Messages in this topic (5)
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9c. Re: kind of off topic
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:09 pm ((PST))

"beaulah_2001us" <beaulah_2001us@...> wrote:>
>
> This is a little off topic. I was wondering if anyone has crate
trianed
> their dogs to eat in the crate? If so how did you achieve this?
*****
Crate training is a topic best posted to RawChat. It's not about raw
feeding, it's simply about teaching a dog to go to an established
place. Please take all further create training discussion to RawChat.


> How long can I leave raw food out of fridge for her? 1 hour or a
little
> longer?
*****
Oh heavens. All day for sure. Overnight, no problem.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: How to tell if it is any good?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Maria" <plava_93@...> wrote:
>
> How do
> I know if it is any good? I don't want to make the dogs sick.

Feed it. "Good" is only meant for us sissy humans. Dogs can handle
it fine.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Chew treats?
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:59 pm ((PST))

My outdoor chew treats are chicken and pig feet. Indoors, I give
bully sticks and moo tubes (cow tracheas). There's really nothing
gross about bully sticks, they just look and feel like rawhide. And
this is the "whole prey" diet..... haha. I'd much rather have a dog
eating a bully stick on the sofa then a juicy pig foot.

-Tammy

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12294

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: excessive shedding
From: Yasuko herron
1b. Re: excessive shedding
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: excessive shedding
From: shefy gupta

2a. {Raw Feeding} Need to rethink my diet
From: Brandi Bryant
2b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Need to rethink my diet
From: Andrea
2c. Re: {Raw Feeding} Need to rethink my diet
From: Yasuko herron
2d. Re: {Raw Feeding} Need to rethink my diet
From: Brandi Bryant

3. Oregon sources for raw food.
From: Leanne

4. {Raw Feeding} Probiotic
From: Brandi Bryant

5a. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
From: rosey031801
5b. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
From: jenna

6a. Bad meat??
From: trayc2244
6b. Re: Bad meat??
From: Andrea
6c. Re: Bad meat??
From: Sonja
6d. Re: Bad meat??
From: Andrea

7a. Re: feeding salmon
From: Michael Moore
7b. Re: feeding salmon
From: Erika

8a. Re: deer head
From: Michael Moore

9a. Re: Raw and Eclampsia
From: briargarden07
9b. Re: Raw and Eclampsia
From: Renate

10a. kind of off topic
From: beaulah_2001us
10b. Re: kind of off topic
From: Sonja

11a. salmon
From: beaulah_2001us

12a. Re: Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
From: dawnt91

13a. Re: How to tell if it is any good?
From: Dawn Crosier


Messages
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1a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:37 am ((PST))

>i have a salmon oil that i put onto his treats sometimes and he likes it...but wouldn't it be better to get all the omega's from real food like fish?

yes,I think so if diet can give enough Omega3 only from whole foods not by cap or liquid.

But it is very hard to give enough omega 3.

If you buy grassfed beef or lamb or goat;grassfed anything,you get more omega3 in thedog diet by feeding such meat much more than the commercial beef/lamb/goat etc you get at super market.

Problem isthat,buying such things are quite costy.

some meat cost you 22 dollarsper pound..well,I hada chance to see pasture-raised Turkey on site but with 10lb bird,it cost you 75 dollars!!!!
for chicken,23 dollars per 5-6lb sized chicken. If you buy grassfed beef,it will cost much much more,I am guessing.

Idealy,if you can feed grassfed animals mainly to dogs,then,you maybe getting your dog omega3 and you may andmay not additional omega3 cap or liquid,but it really is hard.

And omega 3 rich fish are salmon,Jack Mackerral,Herring,sardine,Anchovi etc.

I do not think Tilapia is big on omega3. Good for variety maybe but not for omega purpose.

> which fish are good to feed for these nutrients/minerals?

If I can,I try to feed omega 3 rich fish from fresh fish,but mostlikely,I get other fish like perch,mahimahi,haddocks,flounder,shark etc from fish counter whatever it looks good on or great price on sale for variety. And I don't feed fresh salmon myself and I feed canned salmon for salmon intake. It is not because of parasite,but I rather do not like idea that salmon you find at store is having added color to it so that fresh can look much reddish organge and,I do not buy it to my dog.

And I try getting wild caught fish as much aspossible.

I don't feed tilapia;this gives my dog bright green gooey poo diarrhea andshe is so miserable..

I do not feed catfish either;all she wantrs to do is roll on it,not eating it..

yassy


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Messages in this topic (20)
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1b. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:45 am ((PST))

shefy gupta <shefy7@...> wrote:>
> snowy has been shedding quite a bit lately too...actually for
awhile. i give him tilapia about once or twice a week. and that makes
his coat soft and shiny and healthy. but he still sheds like mad.
*****
Shefy, you absolutely positively need to remember to trim your
messages!

Tilapia is an okay source for protein variety but it has no Omega 3
value and is pretty lean so if your dog is responding well to Tilapia
it's either because Snowy's getting a needed nutritional boost or
you're also doing something else that IS making a difference.


i have a salmon oil that i put onto his treats sometimes and he
likes it...but wouldn't it be better to get all the omega's from real
food like fish?
*****
Of course. But Tilapia isn't one of those fish. And neither are
feedlot livestock or factory poultry. If you rely on agribusiness
meats, Snowy is getting a truckload of Omega 6 and not nearly enough
Omega 3. That's the unfortunate fact. Feeding "real food" isn't
enough, generally speaking.

If one cannot/will not feed grassfed livestock, freerange poultry or
wild caught cold water marine fish and one wants to bash back the
Omega 6 levels, supplemental fish body oil is called for.

If one cannot/will not feed naturally high Omega 3 meat and one will
not/cannot supplement with fish body oil and the dog shows no signs
that the lack is problematic, that's fine, too. It's a personal
choice. I think the alternatives are clear but I feed my dogs, not
anyone else's.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (20)
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1c. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:11 pm ((PST))

sorry about the messages :) sometimes i like to leave a passage or two since we usually don't read every message from the start of it...

i'll keep that up now though :)

hmm..i'd like to feed grassfed livestock...i know freerange poultry is already readily available in supermarkets and i feed that, and wild caught cold water marine fish...is that something that's just labelled at the store?

like an ethnic store?

thanks!

shefy and snowy






If one cannot/will not feed grassfed livestock, freerange poultry or
wild caught cold water marine fish and one wants to bash back the
Omega 6 levels, supplemental fish body oil is called for.

If one cannot/will not feed naturally high Omega 3 meat and one will
not/cannot supplement with fish body oil and the dog shows no signs
that the lack is problematic, that's fine, too. It's a personal
choice. I think the alternatives are clear but I feed my dogs, not
anyone else's.
Chris O



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Messages in this topic (20)
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2a. {Raw Feeding} Need to rethink my diet
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:37 am ((PST))

Ok - this past Saturday I bought all 4 of my dogs their own pork
shoulders. Come home, everbody loved it! Happy, full extremely - and
satisfied. But I think I gave them to much - my GS puppy (the one that
gorges herself and swallows whole and then has bad belches and gas) threw up
twice and it had dirt and grass in it. And then my other older GS male the
rescue took a big drink of water and then threw up part of his meal 3 times
within seconds of each other. Suggestions on what might have happened?

Another question when you guys plan your meals do you give chicken one day,
pork another day, beef another etc...or do you do chicken, pork, beef all in
one meal? The reason I'm asking is because I think I'm not putting enough
red meats in their diets - I was reading this from another posts and
started thinking about how I do it. Beef here is real expensive - so I
usually do just chicken, turkey and pork. I have a hunter friend that keeps
promising me a deer but I don't think he's either made the time or is
ignoring my request. And I really don't know any other hunters...not ones
that would give me anything anyway. :(

So, I may have to rethink how I'm feeding! Any suggestions?


Thanks in advance!

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


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Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Need to rethink my diet
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:06 am ((PST))

It could be because they had too much food at once. When I first
started giving my GSP mix big food he would eat until he threw up. I
think it just took him a little while to learn how much was too
much. After a couple of times he worked it out and he hasn't had any
problems for about six months. My newf mix has never had a problem
with knowing when to stop, so I guess it is a dog by dog thing.

> do you give chicken one day, pork another day, beef another
> etc...or do you do chicken, pork, beef all in one meal?

As long as your dogs are ok with the proteins you can feed all at
once if you like.

> So, I may have to rethink how I'm feeding! Any suggestions?

You haven't been feeding raw for too long, right? I think a lot of
us start out with less red meat than we would like, but it takes us a
while to source cheaper stuff and determine how we should feed it to
our dogs. For example, my dogs have no problems with meaty meals but
others do much better if there is at least *some* bone in the meal.
No need to rush, just keep working your way to something better.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: {Raw Feeding} Need to rethink my diet
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

>Suggestions on what might have happened?

Hi,Brandi.May I ask how long have you been feeding raw to them?

IF dogs were fed pork for the first time,i think meal was too much to handle.

When I feed something my dog has never ate before,I give small amount to old meat and gradually increase the new one to desired amount of the dog. I did not feed big meal for months until after more than 6 months.

I been feeding raw about 7 months now,and we just started feeding big meal once a day(but let her eat till about max 1lb(16oz) worth(she usually fed 10oz) by eyeballing and i pick up and refreeze for next time).

I do this because I do not want to upset tummy with sudden big meal. My plan is try to increase amount she is allowed to eat on big meal day and then,slowly feed and feed like other long timefeeder;feed till full. I do not think my dog cannot torelate if I let her eat full yet.

I try to do new thing slowly,one at a time for my dog.

>question when you guys plan your meals do you give chicken one day,pork another day, beef another etc...?

Well,I spent probably around 3-4 months just feeding new protin for a while and then move on to new one a while system. So,it was like 1st week,chicken,2nd week,chicken and chicken liver,3rd week,beef and chicken liver,4th week,beef and beef liver,5th week turkey and beef liver or chicken liver,6th week pork and chicken liver or beef liver etc etc

After introduced all protins i wish to feed(well,I stock up meats after decided what I like to feed first),I am feeding mix and match thing.

For example,today my dog gets lamb tongue,chicken tender,tripe,Turkey gizzard,canned salmon,and 1 chicken feet.

Tomorrow,she gets chicken liver,Mahi-Mahi,Egg,pork liver/kidney,Pork rib.

She gets red meat too.

On thanksgiving day,she gets big meal and Goat leg only.

This week,mainly lamb but some other meats get in so,mixed meal.

When I feed beef,I do mix too.
example be... Beef tongue,beef liver/kidney,goat rib one day andother time,Beef Heart chicken liver,tripe,Mutton with bone etc

If you just think about boneless Beef,it maybe costy but if you did look for Tongue(I got $3/lb) or Beef heart,it is another things you can add to yourdog meal with less cost than beef for roast etc.

Look for meat that iscloser to expire date andyou get cheaper and you may get score.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (4)
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2d. Re: {Raw Feeding} Need to rethink my diet
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:11 pm ((PST))

>>>Hi,Brandi.May I ask how long have you been feeding raw to them?<<<

I think I've had my dogs on the RAW diet since August? I THINK - so not
very long!

>>>IF dogs were fed pork for the first time,i think meal was too much to
handle<<<

They have had pork before but it had been a while since they have had a pork
shoulder.

And I agree with you that they weren't use to the sudden big meal when I had
been feeding smaller meals. I will remember this feed smaller meals and
work up to bigger meals. That does make sense....

Thank you for your suggestions!

Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


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Messages in this topic (4)
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3. Oregon sources for raw food.
Posted by: "Leanne" l_parker@sympatico.ca happyrawdawg
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:37 am ((PST))

Anybody in the Portland Oregon area who can help me source some raw
food? I live out East but my husband and our raw-fed Greyhound are
staying with family in BEAVERTON for 10 days at Xmas time. Can anyone
point me in the direction of any suppliers where we can get a small 10
day supply? Raw chicken bones (rib cages) would be great, or
prepackaged, meat/ veg combo would be easiest to store etc.

Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks,
Leanne

Messages in this topic (1)
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4. {Raw Feeding} Probiotic
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:37 am ((PST))

I know this may sound strange and I'm comparing an equine to a canine but
with horses when giving antibodics you are killing their good bacteria and
have to give them their good bugs back - do you have to do this with dogs as
well? Max was on an antibodics for 2 full weeks, do I need to do anything
special for him?

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


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Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:37 am ((PST))

Searing is when you put a peice of meat in a hot skillet and just brown
the surface slightly. It brings out the flavor. Don't cook it just
brown one side. Another thing I did was make a "gravy" out of liver and
put it on top of raw meat. This only works if you dog likes the flavor
of cooked liver. Most do. I was dedicated to make it work. Good luck.
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (11)
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5b. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
Posted by: "jenna" jennawing@charter.net jennawing
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

> Yeah, it's called dog training the human. And it's working!
> More dog training the human. She is GOOD!!! Also, YOU ARE EASY!!!
> She is playing you like a piano and you are rolling over and
> letting her.

Yes, thank you, Bill, for pointing out that my dog is making a fool
out of me. She does have serious issues with behavior, though we have
been working with her and she is much improved. She was very indulged
as a puppy, as her mother and brother were killed and Natalie herself
almost died from being poisoned. Following that were minor injuries,
bronchitis, digestive issues, so she was cajoled too much. We are
aware of it, I promise you. We don't call her Bratalie for nothing. I
do appreciate her individuality, she is a very playful and intelligent
dog, but we are working hard to make her mind more consistently.
Knowing Nattie is spoiled does not negate my concerns that this may
not work for her. However, I will try what you suggest. She did
finally take some food last night, chewed it, but would not swallow
it, so at least she is not acting afraid of it any more. She hasn't
had an actual meal in five days, though, just to put things in
perspective.

Thank you for all the information,
jenna

Messages in this topic (11)
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6a. Bad meat??
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))

Can raw fed dogs eat meat that has gone bad. I figured wild dogs eat
rancid meat all the time in the wild, so I was just wondering if it is
okay for domesticated dogs to eat bad meat.

Just wondering,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:10 am ((PST))

For the most part I'd say it's fine. If it has gone funky in an open
air container or buried in the back yard I have absolutely no problem
feeding it. If, on the other hand, it went bad while sealed in a
ziploc baggie or some other airtight container, I might not feed it.
In all likelyhood it wouldn't bother the dogs but the anerobic bacteria
give me the willies.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> Can raw fed dogs eat meat that has gone bad. I figured wild dogs eat
> rancid meat all the time in the wild, so I was just wondering if it
> is okay for domesticated dogs to eat bad meat.

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:18 am ((PST))

Andrea,

Can you explain the difference between bacteria in a Ziploc and bacteria in an open air container? I use a ton of ziplocs to repackage and freeze the dog's food. Since I've been hearing that Ziplocs are pretty bad to store fresh meat in, I've been standing them up and leaving some of them unzipped. Would this help my case any?

Any explantion would be appreciated...thank you!

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:25 pm ((PST))

Yes, the baggie itself isn't the problem, it's the fact that air can't
circulate. When meat is sitting around in the absence of air it allows
bacteria to grow that ordinarily wouldn't be there (the ones that don't
do well in the presence of air). Those anerobic bacteria aren't
necessarily the kind of bacteria that a dog's digestive system is used
to so they have a better chance of making the dog sick. Leaving the
baggies open fixes the issue just fine.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sonja" <ladyver@...> wrote:

> Can you explain the difference between bacteria in a Ziploc and
bacteria in an open air container? I use a ton of ziplocs to repackage
and freeze the dog's food. Since I've been hearing that Ziplocs are
pretty bad to store fresh meat in, I've been standing them up and
leaving some of them unzipped. Would this help my case any?


Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: feeding salmon
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

>>I have found a place where I can purchase salmon filets with the bone
in for $1 a pound. There are 100lbs available that have been in a
freezer at below 0 for 2 years! Now the meat guy just wants to get it
out of his freezer<<

Ericka -- feed it! It's been frozen for two years and any parasites/flukes are dead. What a great find!! Your dogs are lucky..... salmon is my dogs' favorite fish!

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

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Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: feeding salmon
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:47 pm ((PST))

I picked up the salmon today, some of it is freezerburned but most is still ok for people to eat! I also happened to meet the fisherman when I was there and next time he goes fishing he will cut out the filets and sell me the remaining fish for $1 a lb.

So I am safe if I just freez it for 2 weeks first? Any specific temp?

Thanks guys!

Erika


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Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: deer head
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:17 am ((PST))

>>Yesterday a hunter friend shot a small doe, had it butchered and saved
the head and neck. Any reason I shouldn't hand it to my dog. <<

No reason at all! Head it to your dog; it'll be a blast to watch, BTW. A dog new to venison might have looser stools for a bit after venison, but perhaps not with a head as its introduction.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Raw and Eclampsia
Posted by: "briargarden07" briargarden07@yahoo.com briargarden07
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:47 pm ((PST))

> I really need help now deciding what to do. I know there is a
calcium
> problem, but is this picky diet doing to make it worse? Do I let
her
> continue to be so picky over food (she is eating virtually no bone)
although
> she is willing to eat canned tuna and canned salmon so there is a
bit of
> fish bone. I can't wait her out without harming her health.

********************************************
As I'm sure you know, eclampsia is VERY serious. Life
threatening. She NEEDS two things. More bone than is usually
recommended & Vitamin D (cod liver oil). As of now, she is not
allowed to have a mostly meat or meat only meal. And one teaspoon of
cod liver oil daily so her body will be able to absorb as much of the
calcium as possible. Calcium w/o Vitamin D is useless. If possible,
get her outside in a sunny spot for at least a few minutes per day so
that all the Vit D, in turn, can be absorbed.
If she refuses to eat meaty bones, you have no other choice but
to temporarily pull her off raw, unless you are able to grind her
food. I helped assist in a litter of a raw fed bitch w/ eclampsia a
few years back. It was my mentor's bitch, and the eclampsia was so
bad, it showed symptoms a few days before this bitch delivered. The
treatment was a calcium shot from the Vet plus a cahnge of diet that
included kibble and ground up chicken wings.
Eclampsia is not as simple as the dog has a calcium deficiency.
Its hypocalcemia - dangerously low levels of calcium in the blood. It
will eventually lead to seizures & death if left untreated. Its also
called "Milk Fever" because pups who nurse from bitches with this
condition will become sickly and die.
The best milk replacer for the pups is a mix of evaporated milk,
boiling water to thin the mixture out for bottle feeding, 2 egg yolks
(no whites), and a few spoonfulls of yogurt. This can also be given
to the bitch. But don't depend on it to be anything more than a
supplement. The pups should not be back with the dam unless & until
the bitch is eating normally and producing ample milk. You can
potentially kill the entire litter if you give them back to her too
soon.


>>>>> I've gotten to the point that I feel
> like I can't trust anything the vet tells me. (she did an ultra
sound on
> Bella and told me there were 2 babies, possibly a third, but there
were
> actually 5 - one very tiny died a day after birth).

*********************************************
Ultrasounds are not as accurate as x-rays, and even those are
not 100%. Normally, when it comes to nutrition, I don't trust my Vet.
But in this instance, you really need to do whatever your Vet tells
you to get her through this. You can mix canned food with kibble to
firm the texture of her diarrhea. And supplement with raw for the
time being. If this bitch won't eat, you do NOT bribe her with fish
or other foods she likes. She has to learn she must eat what you
place in front of her, and nothing else.
I really wish you luck with this situation, I know its not easy.
Please keep us posted on the outcome.

Noelle M.
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: Raw and Eclampsia
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

thank you, Noelle. My vet is going to call in a prescription for calcium at
a pharmacy (they couldn't find any vets with it in stock). They tested
Bella this afternoon (she got the iv calcium around midnight last night) and
at this point her blood calcium level is normal. The puppies are off her
for 24 hours, though I have to let her be with them or she just keeps
barking and barking, and barking. I feed them milk replacer and then let
her nap with them. The vet says that I need to continue supplementing them
with milk replacer until they are weaned. The feeding issue is the biggie.
I tried to feed her canned food. She gobbled it last night after the emerg
visit, but won't touch it today. I hand fed her a few chunks this morning
and she eats a couple, then spits the rest out. Same thing this afternoon.
She did eat a tiny pork bone with a bit of meat on it and a couple of hours
after she refused the canned food, I gave it again, and she refused so I
gave her the usual heart and kidney so at least she ate something. And
there is a bowl of her pre-raw diet kibble (Canidae) in her expen with her
and the pups, but it's not been touched. the vet suggested going and
buying a heap of different brands of canned food and rotating them to see if
that helps, so I'll do that tomorrow unless I can find some of those frozen
raw pattie things.

I appreciate your being very direct. It bothered me that the first reaction
my vet has is always to blame the diet, so I guess it's brought me to a
point where I just don't know what to think. Your response was very helpful
in setting my mind at ease that the approach she and I worked out is
probably the right one.
Thank you
Renate

On 11/19/07, briargarden07 <briargarden07@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> ********************************************
> As I'm sure you know, eclampsia is VERY serious. Life
> threatening. She NEEDS two things. More bone than is usually
> recommended & Vitamin D (cod liver oil). As of now, she is not
> allowed to have a mostly meat or meat only meal. And one teaspoon of
> cod liver oil daily so her body will be able to absorb as much of the
> calcium as possible.
>


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10a. kind of off topic
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:03 pm ((PST))


This is a little off topic. I was wondering if anyone has crate trianed
their dogs to eat in the crate? If so how did you achieve this? I have
been trying with sophie to get her to eat in crate, she will a little
bit but doesnt eat much when she is in there. If there is a better way
to coral her to a specific area I would very much like to know how to do
that and what is needed. She is boxer and cant handle the cold as of
yet. She is only 3 months old.

How long can I leave raw food out of fridge for her? 1 hour or a little
longer?

Thanks for any help.

sandy

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Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: kind of off topic
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

I've always used meal time to help with crate training my dogs! But then again, I have food-crazy labs so it might be different with a breed that is less enthusiastic about food.

I didn't want the hassle of trying to get our new puppy to eat her raw food on a towel like our 3 yr old lab does while having to referee mealtime with two dogs. The solution was to feed the new pup in a crate. At first she wasn't really interested in eating the food, she was too concerned with being locked up. So after 30 minutes, we took the food away until the next meal. She was more comfortable eating with the crate door open, so we left it open but supervised so we could put her and her food back in if she tried to carry it out. After a few days we closed the crate door and she took a little longer to eat, but she ate. Just take baby steps and be patient. It sounds like Sophie is eating a little bit in the crate....praise her while she's eating! If petting distracts her from eating, then limit it to verbal praise. Play games with the crate...throw a favorite treat into the back of it and praise her when she gets it.

Sometimes training backfires, though.....our puppy was taught that her crate is HER place, and our older dog respects that. Last week the puppy figured out that she can steal toys from the older dog and run to her crate. Our older dog stands there whining at the open door, hoping the puppy will come out so she can get her toy back.

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. salmon
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:10 pm ((PST))

I thought salmon could kill dogs if they fed on it. If so I assume
there is something I dont know about feeding salmon to dogs. Can
someone please enlighten me?
Sandy

Messages in this topic (12)
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12a. Re: Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
Posted by: "dawnt91" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

I have a rescued racing greyhound and he's doing spectacular on raw.
I got Dixon in August and he was pretty skinny even for a greyhound -
about 69/70 lbs. He's gained 5 lbs and looks great! His teeth were
yellow and now they're shiny white. Even his bald butt has regrown
hair. I think that's a direct result of the diet because he had
been retired for a year and living in a home when I got him and he was
still bald. Now he's all filled in and looks gorgeous.

Dixon is a great eater and will eat almost anything I give him. He
does turn up his nose at pork liver and pork spleen, but who can
really blame him?

Dawn

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle Urbano" <chelleu@...> wrote:
>
>
> I have two rescued greyhounds that I would like to start feeding raw.
> Was just wondering if there are any other owners that have gone to
> this diet and how their dogs have done.
> Thanks
>


Messages in this topic (13)
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13a. Re: How to tell if it is any good?
Posted by: "Dawn Crosier" dlcrosier@sbcglobal.net dlc110161
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:31 pm ((PST))

Maria -

Your father is right! If you could see what the family dogs ate when I was
growing up...
One of the remedies for a dog who killed chickens was to tie a dead chicken
to their neck. We shunned Pandora for nearly a month while the chicken
rotted off her neck. She then ate it, happy as ever. We never could get her
to stop chasing chickens. The big old black cat did teach her to leave the
kittens alone though, but that's another story.

Dawn

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Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12293

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding Salmon?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Feeding Salmon?
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: Feeding Salmon?
From: Erika

2a. Re: excessive shedding
From: maxieii
2b. Re: excessive shedding
From: Yasuko herron
2c. Re: excessive shedding
From: costrowski75
2d. Re: excessive shedding
From: shefy gupta

3a. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
From: debiand5dogues
3c. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: deer head
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: BEEF BONE confusion
From: Andrea

6a. Re: some meat ?s:
From: Andrea

7a. Early Riser and Fish Question
From: the swamp witch
7b. Re: Early Riser and Fish Question
From: costrowski75

8a. Suggestion for next protein, small dog
From: mmc2315
8b. Re: Suggestion for next protein, small dog
From: Andrea
8c. Re: Suggestion for next protein, small dog
From: Yasuko herron

9.1. New to RAW
From: Lisa
9.2. Re: New to RAW
From: costrowski75

10a. Chew treats?
From: geraldinebutterfield
10b. Re: Chew treats?
From: Andrea
10c. Re: Chew treats?
From: costrowski75

11. Re;chew treat
From: Yasuko herron

12. Raw and Eclampsia
From: Renate


Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding Salmon?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:46 am ((PST))

For wild caught fish it is recommended that you freeze it solid for a
couple of weeks, so after two years I'm sure that any parasite that
might have been in the fish is good and gone.

If I had the choice between salmon and tilapia for the same price I'd
go with salmon every time. And so would my dogs, actually. Feed away!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "redangelbordeaux" <Erika@...> wrote:
>
> I have found a place where I can purchase salmon filets with the
> bone in for $1 a pound. There are 100lbs available that have been
> in a freezer at below 0 for 2 years! Now the meat guy just wants to
> get it out of his freezer, lol.

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Feeding Salmon?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:12 am ((PST))

"redangelbordeaux" <Erika@...> wrote:
> There are 100lbs available that have been in a
> freezer at below 0 for 2 years! Now the meat guy just wants to get it
> out of his freezer, lol. Since I am feeding 6 mastiffs feeding fish
> other that Talapia is usually very pricey and my dogs usually get
> salmon oil instead of fish.
>
> I have read that feeding wild caught pacific salmon is dangerous for
> dogs due to a fluke parasite that they carry.
*****
The parasite is killed by freezing; freezing for two years at below
zero truly is freezing enough. Buy them fishies and enjoy your good
fortune.

Unless you are positively dying for more protein variety, I'd say
pasadena on the Tilapia and plunk your bucks down on more salmon.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Feeding Salmon?
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:36 am ((PST))

Thannks,

I had a feeling it would be ok just wanted to be sure!

Erika


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "maxieii" maxieii@yahoo.com maxieii
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:50 am ((PST))


Giselle,

> > **** Good idea! Are you planning to introduce Salmon or Fish Body
oil?

I give her 1 1200mg fish oil with omega3/omega6 by natures bounty a
day, besides the fish oil it only has gelatin and glycerin.

Thanks again for your help!

Happy Thanksgiving from Roberta and Maxie!

Messages in this topic (17)
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2b. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

>I give her 1 1200mg fish oil with omega3/omega6 by natures bounty a day, besides the fish oil it only has gelatin and glycerin.

Hi. Gelatin andGlycerrin are ok ingredients to make capsule for Fish body oil,but is it possible for you to find one without Omega6 in it?

Reason why is that,diet without fish body oil has tonz of omega6 already,and what you like to bump up the level is just omega3 not both.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (17)
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2c. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

"maxieii" <maxieii@...> wrote:
> I give her 1 1200mg fish oil with omega3/omega6 by natures bounty a
> day, besides the fish oil it only has gelatin and glycerin.
*****
Nature's Bounty thanks you for providing them a little more profit.
Nature's Bounty would have you believe that you--and your dog--are
not getting enough Omega 6 fatty acid. They would be wrong of
course, since unless you are eating/feeding a diet that's virtually
free of feedlot livestock and factory chicken you are getting not
only plenty of Omega 6 you are getting too much of it.

But Nature's Bounty, because it is a for-profit corporation with
stockholders to answer to, doesn't care if you are already getting O6
from the food you eat; no, Nature's Bounty insists you need more.
The more plant-based oil (cheap to produce) in the product, the less
animal-based oil (expensive to produce).

I recommend you do not fall for this booschwa. You need more O3,
your dog needs more O3. Buy a product that offers Omega 3 from
marine fish and nothing more (nada, zip, zero, zilch).

Omega 3 and nothing but Omega 3, so help me dog.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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2d. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:33 am ((PST))

snowy has been shedding quite a bit lately too...actually for awhile. i give him tilapia about once or twice a week. and that makes his coat soft and shiny and healthy. but he still sheds like mad.

i have a salmon oil that i put onto his treats sometimes and he likes it...but wouldn't it be better to get all the omega's from real food like fish?

which fish are good to feed for these nutrients/minerals?

thanks in advance!
shefy and snowy

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"maxieii" wrote:
> I give her 1 1200mg fish oil with omega3/omega6 by natures bounty a
> day, besides the fish oil it only has gelatin and glycerin.
*****
Nature's Bounty thanks you for providing them a little more profit.
Nature's Bounty would have you believe that you--and your dog--are
not getting enough Omega 6 fatty acid. They would be wrong of
course, since unless you are eating/feeding a diet that's virtually
free of feedlot livestock and factory chicken you are getting not
only plenty of Omega 6 you are getting too much of it.

But Nature's Bounty, because it is a for-profit corporation with
stockholders to answer to, doesn't care if you are already getting O6
from the food you eat; no, Nature's Bounty insists you need more.
The more plant-based oil (cheap to produce) in the product, the less
animal-based oil (expensive to produce).

I recommend you do not fall for this booschwa. You need more O3,
your dog needs more O3. Buy a product that offers Omega 3 from
marine fish and nothing more (nada, zip, zero, zilch).

Omega 3 and nothing but Omega 3, so help me dog.
Chris O

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
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Messages in this topic (17)
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3a. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:01 am ((PST))

Since you have been feeding turkey necks I would go with something
mroe meaty. It will help with Sirius' gums and it might be more
appealing to Natalie.

> We can cut off tiny pieces of meat (as long as she doesn't see
> where it came from) and she will eventually take them if you act
> like it's a big game- which is tiring, as you can imagine.

Unfortunately Natalie thinks she's calling the shots when it comes to
food. You're going to need to use some tough love or you'll be in
for a constant struggle down the line.

> You leave the food and try to act like it's no big deal, she lays
> down and sighs like we are all stupid and she still won't go near
> it.

If that's what she wants to do, that's fine. Give her fifteen
minutes and if she hasn't started eating just take the food away.
Don't coax her, talk to her, anything. Just stay within eyesight
and "ignore" her. Next day she gets the same food and fifteen
minutes to start eating.

> Nat is uncharachteristically letting Pagan snatch all the food and
> build a pile.

With some dogs, having competition for food will help get them to
eat, but it doesn't appear to be the case with Natalie. I'd go back
to feeding her in a room by herself for now.

> I thought about just not feeding her until she got hungry. She does
> it to herself, after all. Her energy level drops when she doesn't
> eat, though, and I worry that she will be a lot more stubborn than
> me.

Stubborn or not, a healthy dog will not starve itself in the presence
of food. Some people here have endured a four day battle before the
dog finally breaks down and eats what they are given.

> but after several days of nothing more than tidbits we cajoled her
> into, I know there must be something to make her act normal. Please
> say there is.

Yes, don't cajole her. If she doesn't eat her food don't make a
fuss. Just calmly pick it up and put it away. If she doesn't get
any attention for not eating her food it will quickly become boring
for her.

> And while I am writing, any tips on feeding raw to cats- sites you
> trust, etc. ?

We have a sister list called raw cat, since we mostly talk about dogs
here. Lots of people over there have lots of tips for switching cats
since they are often a PITA to switch over. Just so you know, you
should never try to use the tough love approach with cats. They have
to eat some food every day, even if that "food" is in the form of
doom nuggets.

Let us know how things go with Natalie, and good luck.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
Posted by: "debiand5dogues" dholloway26@yahoo.com debiand5dogues
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:36 am ((PST))

Hi Cheryl,
I just posted about a picky eater then just read your post. I am not
much of a cook and in hopes of not sounding too ignorant what is
searing? When you seared it, did you apply the seasonings at that
time?

He is good about placing it where he wants it, I give it to him in
his bowl outside, he immediately takes it out and looks at it, licks
it and is very protective. The cats smell it and he is very
watchfull and growls when they get too close, however eating it is a
different story.

thanks for your words!! Looking forward to learing about searing!
hahaha

debi
>
> My ten year old special needs dog did not want the raw meat at
first
> either. I got great tips from the senoir feeding group. Things like
> searing the boneless to imitate the cooked flavor and trying
seasonings
> like cheese and garlic. I was willing to do whatever it took to get
> over the hump and it worked. The coaxing only lasted a couple of
> months, then he started acting like a normal wild dog and takes it
out
> in the yard, protects it, and then eats it. Cutting up boneless
meats
> and trying things to enhance the flavor will help with the switch.
I
> think there is an addiction they have to get over at first. It is
like
> trying to get a five year old child to eat plain brwon rice
compared to
> Mc Something cheeseburgers and fries. I can be hard but it is well
> worth it in the end!
> Cheryl
>


Messages in this topic (9)
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3c. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:02 am ((PST))

>what is searing? ?

Searing is ,If place skillet on high and,you see the smoke coming out a little for high heat and you place meat on skillet and quickly brown the outside the meat by rotating.

Basically,trapping the flavor inside the meat with high heat cooking and browning outside.
20secs is more than enough I think.

For finiky eater,this quick searing or mixing meat with tripe or egg,flavoring meat,ribborning the meat are some tricks you can read on this list.

My dog hates pork liver but if it were mixed with egg,she gubbles down,no prob.

Some dog eats things if it were frozen. It all depend on dogs.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: deer head
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

"Diane" <dheinicke@...> wrote:
>
> Yesterday a hunter friend shot a small doe, had it butchered and
saved
> the head and neck. Any reason I shouldn't hand it to my dog.
*****
No reason a-tall. Untrimmed necks are one my favorite body parts to
feed. And heads are good clean(?) fun.


He gets mostly whole chickens (a half at
> a time), some beef heart and kindey, a whole fish once a week or
so,
> some pork every couple of weeks and an occasional egg.
*****
Yes, after six months I think you are definitely ready to lighten up
on the chicken. I recommend you do some menu restructuring: More red
meat, less chicken. You can rely on chicken for the bones if no
other critters provide edible bone for your dog, but whenever and
however possible add red meat to the menu. Pork every couple of
weeks isn't enough.

The venison is an excellent addition.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: BEEF BONE confusion
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:27 am ((PST))

I don't feed my dogs any bone that has unnaturally cut edges like t-
bones, the bones from pork chops, country style ribs, etc. Slabs of
ribs are good exercise food, but single ribs are too easy to try and
swallow whole IMO.

It is likely your girl threw up the boney bits because she didn't have
any meat to go down with the bone. Many dogs have boney bile vomit
when they have a meal that is too boney.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lynette" <lraefried@...> wrote:
>
> I have read conflicting messages about beef bones. Is it good or not
> good to let your dog eat things like T-bones, rib bone, etc.?


Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: some meat ?s:
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:45 am ((PST))

> 1) Is the beef blood/juice that drains copiously from the thawed
> heart worth saving if I have cramped freezer space?

The fluid that comes out of the thawing heart is more like a protein
juice than actual blood if I remember correctly. When I get cases of
beef heart I usually pour the extra juice into a bowl and let the
dogs drink as much of it as they want at the time. If there is a lot
of it left over I might throw it in the freezer or fridge, but more
often than not I just toss it.

> 2) Would bison tails be considered bone or is it more like
> cartilage? and turkey tails?

I'm not sure. I treat tails more like a treat than a meal. If you
were going to feed it as a meal I would definitely add some meat.
Turkey tails in my experience are a lot of fat and bone with some
meat on it.

> 3) Should the bison be frozen a few weeks for parasites if it came
> from a local coop?

If it is bison from a farmer (and I expect it is) there is no need to
freeze it.

Glad things are going well for you and Gemma, and I'm super glad you
are settling into how easy a raw diet really is.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Early Riser and Fish Question
Posted by: "the swamp witch" theswampwitch@gmail.com mafiaswampwitch
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:54 am ((PST))

I have a 7 yo beagle who has been getting up progressively earlier each day
for the past week or so. This morning it was around 4 or 4:30 AM that he got
up, whining to be fed. We have tried not feeding him, but he whines and paws
at the door so much that he wakes my 1 yo human child. Blah! How can we
train him that this behavior is unacceptable without me having to have a
staring contest with him at 4 in the morning?

Upon someone's suggestion, we increased the ratio of their food from 2% of
body weight to 3% for the past two days and have seen no difference. The
thought was that perhaps he really is just hungry...but I'm beginning to
think he is just obstinate and eager to eat. He has always been a big eater,
typical beagle. But at least on raw he is beginning to lose some weight. No
matter what we did on kibble we could never get his weight to budge.

Now about fish...I thought I had read somewhere not to feed fish, but a lot
of folks on this list seem to feed whole fish at least once a week. Can you
give me some info on that, or direct me to a place with more info on feeding
fish to my two beagles (8 yo, too).

Thanks!
Jennifer


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Early Riser and Fish Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:31 am ((PST))

"the swamp witch" <theswampwitch@...> wrote:
How can we
> train him that this behavior is unacceptable without me having to
have a
> staring contest with him at 4 in the morning?
*****
Pushy little bugger.
What I would do is treat this like potty training. When I am potty
raining a pupster, every urgent fuss is treated like a need to use
the facilities. Whining and fussing do not buy playtime or food or
anything but bathroom.

Stop feeding the clown on his timetable. Change up his mealtimes so
he doesn't know WHEN to start carrying on. When he fusses for food,
treat it like a bathroom alert and without any fuss give him the
chance to pee. He'll probably look at you as if to say "have you
lost your mind woman; it's food I want!" but tough toenails. I think
once he realizes whining will only win him a trip to the outhouse,
he'll quit bugging you. This means you'll have to get up and
participate for a few days, but you'll all survive.


>> Now about fish...I thought I had read somewhere not to feed fish,
but a lot
> of folks on this list seem to feed whole fish at least once a week.
*****
I don't feed fish once a week, not even once a month usually but
that's only because I can't afford the fish I'd prefer to feed and
don't want to buy the fish I can afford--and my dogs are not keen on
either option. Not because there's a interdiction on fish.

I suspect you are confusing the concerns about pacific northwest
salmon with the general fish population. It's okay to feed fish.
Fish can add protein variety to a menu that needs some. It's easily
digestible and species appropriate in a broad sort of way.

The issues surrounding fish are simple: potential parasites and
potential toxins. Parasites can be killed by freezing, so if you are
feeding wild caught fish from unknown waters, you might want to
freeze first, for a week or two. Farmed fish are not likely to
harbor parasites. Store bought fish are often frozen for transport,
so additional freezing would not be required.

Toxins are more likely to be a problem in mature examples of large-
breed ocean fish: More body to accumulate toxins and a longer time to
have done so. And fresh water fish may have toxic accumulations from
industrial and agricultural runoff. Check with local Fish&Wildlife
guys if you're considering catching your own.

Here are two sites helpful in evaluating the "worthiness" of various
fish:
http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=bestandworst
http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp


And these can help you choose high Omega 3 fish if you wish to pursue
that angle:
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/omega3.shtml
http://www.annecollins.com/dietary-fat/fish-oils-fatty-acids.htm

Hope this helps.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Suggestion for next protein, small dog
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:55 am ((PST))

Hi everyone! We started with chicken quarters at the beginning of the month and things are
going very well. Our little 10# Cairn terrier mix from the shelter is looking healthy and
happy! Thanks for all the support.

Tomorrow, we are going to venture down to the butcher's again and since it's been a little
over 2 weeks on chicken, we are going to try another protein source.

Can someone suggest some cuts of red meat as a next step for a small dog?

I am woefully ignorant of meat cuts, I've realized. ;)

Michelle

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Suggestion for next protein, small dog
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:27 am ((PST))

I would suggest a pork shoulder. For a little dog you'll proably want
to cut off chunks of meat from the big thing so it won't go bad while
your little one works through it. You'll proabably want to keep
feeding chicken bones during the pork since you'll have a few meals of
meaty meat.

Pork ribs are also a good choice, though sometimes not so meaty and
often more expensive than I like to feed. I've never been able to find
raw pork hocks, but those would work as well. Pork shouler goes by
many names, so I generally just look for a big hunk of meat that may or
may not have a bone in it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:

> Can someone suggest some cuts of red meat as a next step for a small
> dog?

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Suggestion for next protein, small dog
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:31 am ((PST))

>Can someone suggest some cuts of red meat as a next step for a small dog?

Hi. I am gladto hear yourdog doing great on chicken. Any kinds of animals you choose to feed is fine.

When you feed meat to dog,I understand that we tend to think by CUTS but,it is much easier if you think big picture.

For example, any poultry I buy is cut to quarters and,fed to my dog.I do not think about wing,leg quarter,breast etc etc;cut,anymore,but I buy whole bird and feed.

Then for 4 legged animal,I usually get tongue,heart,any boneless meat for meaty meat and for bone,I get rib and neck mostly.

When you feed neck and rib,if the meat was not too much on it,you need to add more meat to that meal.Don't think by cut.

Any animals are ok,and if you concern price too,then,now is good chance to buy Turkey and you can feed Turkey with cheaper price than usual andthen,you can feed other red meat protins.Usually,pork picnic isquite reasonable on sale price.I got picnic with 1.60 dollars/lb.

But for rib,I stock up in summer because I feel summer ischeaper than any months for ribs.

My dog went to beef next to chicken but in between,I introduced chicken organ.
So,it is like feed chicken only meal a while,andthen.,add bit of liver of chicken,andmeal became chicken plus chicken liver a while,andthen,her meal became chicken liver and
beef.

yassy


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9.1. New to RAW
Posted by: "Lisa" lkblair@yahoo.com lkblair
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:36 am ((PST))

I have an 11yo sheltie (approx 30lbs) and an almost 3yo greyhound
(60lbs) that will be moving to RAW the week after Thanksgiving. The
reason for the wait is that my hubby will be heading out of town, and
I'd rather the initial transition period, in case of upset tummies,
etc, be while he is gone. He doesn't like anything to upset the balance.

Anyway, I have been planning to start the pups with chicken, but my
karate instructor told me that he has quite a bit of venison from 2yrs
ago in his freezer that he was going to toss but is happy to give to
me. Should I just find a way to store it (no extra freezer right now)
and stick with chicken as our first protein, or is venison ok for our
first foray into RAW?

Thanks very much.

Lisa in TX

Messages in this topic (29)
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9.2. Re: New to RAW
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:56 am ((PST))

"Lisa" <lkblair@...> wrote:
>> I'd rather the initial transition period, in case of upset tummies,
> etc, be while he is gone. He doesn't like anything to upset the
balance.
*****
The easiest transition is none; I recommend you simply stop feeding
kibble and start feeding raw food. If you proceed prudently you
should be able to minimize digestive upsets. But since raw feeding--
like life--is an on-going adventure, you will probably have other
opportunties to deal with digestive upsets. I doubt you'll be able
to time them for when your husband is away. What you might do is
browse the archives for the zillion ways we've discussed for
efficiently dealing with digestive mishaps.


>Should I just find a way to store it (no extra freezer right now)
> and stick with chicken as our first protein, or is venison ok for
our
> first foray into RAW?
*****
For a raw feeder with some miles under his/her belt, I'd say start
with the venison, full speed ahead. For a newbie, and one who has to
take into consider her husband's issues, venison might be a little
much to handle. But there's no way I could EVER suggest that venison
be passed by!

How about: Buying chicken backs and feeding venison meat with chicken
bones? That way you get all the lovely delights of venison AND you
get plenty of easily eaten/digested bone. No organs, no nothing else
at this point but venison and chicken backs.

Chicken is not magic and there's no nutritional reason to start with
it; it's cheap and available. But you have the chance to get cheap
(free is the best kind of cheap) and available (handed to you is the
best kind of available) vension that is also totally species
appropriate.

Obviously, I think venison is a wonderful jumping off point; if
others think I am being too cavalier, I assure you they'll waste no
time in telling me/you so.

Or you can just send me the venison and oh, I'll take GOOD care of it.
Chris O

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10a. Chew treats?
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

Before I knew better I gave my 10 lb maltipoo rawhide chew bones. She
likes them but I've taken them away. I've read some folks give 'bully
sticks'... I can't bring myself to that one yet. Are pig ears safe?
What do others give for chew toys -- She gets bones with her meals but
I don't want her draging bones around the house.

Thanks-
Geraldine

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Chew treats?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:15 am ((PST))

Raw pig ears are good chewing fun, but I wouldn't feed the smoked ones
from the pet store. Pig and cow feet are good chew toys as well. I
also have gotten raw cow hooves which the pups seemed to like as well.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> Before I knew better I gave my 10 lb maltipoo rawhide chew bones. She
> likes them but I've taken them away. I've read some folks give 'bully
> sticks'... I can't bring myself to that one yet. Are pig ears safe?

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Chew treats?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

"geraldinebutterfield" <gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> Before I knew better I gave my 10 lb maltipoo rawhide chew bones. She
> likes them but I've taken them away. I've read some folks give 'bully
> sticks'... I can't bring myself to that one yet.
*****
Financially or because you can't bring yourself to deal with a dried
bull penis? Financially they can be stunning, yes; however what a
bully stick LOOKS like is a tube of rolled up rawhide. If you didn't
know what you were looking at, you'd never guess. Believe me, even
with the name most people are clueless.

If you can afford a bully stick I really recommend you get over your
squeamishness. There are worse things by far for a dog to chew on.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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11. Re;chew treat
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

> Are pig ears safe?

You can give raw pig ear as toy.
You can section off the place you want to feed it and place
mat/shower curtain on floor andlet your dog at it. It is floppy andraw anddog
enjoy it.I do not buy pig ear treatthat you can get at petshop.If I buy somethibng like that,I
rather buy lamb ear. not as fatty and easy on tum and very soft for dog to
eat.
I do not buy something flavor/color added.I have heard that hooves you find at petstore is quite hard and heard one dog got broke teeth from it. so,I recommend to give raw hooves.
Cow hooves from haretoday issquite huge and still hide attached and it is a quite amusement for dog for hours and it is stinky but dog enjoy it.You can feedit outsideor inside on mat by section off the place so that dog is not going todrag the bone on carpet to enjoy.

>What do others give for chew toys -- She gets bones with her meals but

>I don't want her draging bones around the house.

You can give edible bone along with meal and then,you can give either
rec bone or toy by section off the feeding area at one place and let
her have fun with it at one place only.Or,simply give her things
outside.

then,hours later,you can simply pick up and toss if anything is left.

I usually give Deer Antler for long lasting chew
toy/treat,andthen,bully stick and others are lamb ears andtexas toothpicks(ox tail chewby
merricks).And on her BD,I gave moochubes;the treachea treat by
merricks,and my dog did like it.All are made in TX.

yassy


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12. Raw and Eclampsia
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:02 am ((PST))

Bella who was having a very picky time during her pregnancy is continuing
that way. She eats lots of kidney and heart, a bit of liver and teeny tiny
amounts of chicken or pork (if at all possible, she won't). Anyway, she has
4 puppies, all growing great,and now 9 days old, but last night I had to
make an emergency run to the vet because Bella developed eclampsia. She was
treated and is fine for now, and I have a syringe of calcium to administer
if needed. The vet is pushing to put her onto canned food - she gobbled a
heap last night and now won't go near it (she developed a nasty case of
diarrhea) and refuses the kibble she used to eat. Also, she has lost a
bunch of hair on the flank - I gently picked out a bunch of matts and there
is no hair left.. The vet also wants me to hand-feed the puppies with milk
replacer.

I really need help now deciding what to do. I know there is a calcium
problem, but is this picky diet doing to make it worse? Do I let her
continue to be so picky over food (she is eating virtually no bone) although
she is willing to eat canned tuna and canned salmon so there is a bit of
fish bone. I can't wait her out without harming her health. I've been
feeding her 3 times a day, should I increase the frequency? Do I really
have to remove the pups? They are definitely not keen on milk replacer.
And frankly I'm not too keen on listening to Bella screech outside the
dining room door for hours on end. I've gotten to the point that I feel
like I can't trust anything the vet tells me. (she did an ultra sound on
Bella and told me there were 2 babies, possibly a third, but there were
actually 5 - one very tiny died a day after birth).

Thank you for any advice

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'


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