Feed Pets Raw Food: Dec 3, 2007

Monday, December 3, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12342

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Tina Berry

2a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: vanevery0

3a. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
From: meg_helmes

4. First raw piece of chicken successfully consumed!!!
From: Annette

5a. Re: frozen/fresh
From: sarahfalkner
5b. Re: frozen/fresh/Sara
From: Cathy

6a. Re: Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: DEER MEAT
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: DEER MEAT
From: Candee Brey

8a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: Morledzep@aol.com

10a. evils of cooked meat
From: vanevery0
10b. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: Chia
10c. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: Sandee Lee
10d. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: vanevery0
10e. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: darkstardog

11.1. Salmon Oil
From: Sai Simonson
11.2. Re: Salmon Oil
From: Tina Berry
11.3. Re: Salmon Oil
From: vanevery0

12a. Re: frozen/fresh/Marguerita
From: Cathy

13a. Re: Raw Book list
From: spricketysprock

14. DEER MEAT, whats cws?
From: Michelle R

15a. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
From: vanevery0

Messages
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1a. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

> When you started moving their feeding time around, how long did it
> take them to adjust? Where there a few days or weeks of getting sick
> at their "old" feeding time?

With my GSP mix it took about four days of bile vomit at what he
determined should be "feeding time". It's hard at first to just clean
it up and go along with the day, but he and I have both been much
happier with a relaxed feeding schedule.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:05 pm ((PST))

Tiffany,

Nutrigest is a probiotic. I don't see any ingredients that would assist in
digestion of meat and fat. For that you need a digestive enzyme containing
ingredients such as pancreatin, ox bile, lipase, etc. I really don't think
the majority of dogs require any help at all when switching. They have
plenty of enzymes and probiotics.

As far as I know, there are no enzyme products that will help in digesting
bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Tiffany" <tiff.bob@verizon.net>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
> >
> Sounds like yours hasn't adjusted to fully
> > digesting the bigger chicken bones. There are digestive enzymes you
> can add
> > to help digest bones. Or just let his system get used to it over
> time.
>
> Thanks for your reply. We are giving him "Nutrigest" which is a
> digestive aid recommended by our (new) vet when switching to raw.

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:15 pm ((PST))

"it's when he's expecting food and it doesn't come. When you started moving
their feeding time around, how long did it take them to adjust? Where there
a few days or weeks of getting sick at their "old" feeding time?"

I started by varying earlier by 1-2 hours, then started more and more.
Never did throw up bile again. Now I feed them whenever. So if you feed
them earlier by an hour, they won't get sick, then the next day feed them 2
hours earlier etc. So then after a week I just started feeding them
whenever.

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vanevery0" <bvanevery@...> wrote:
>
> Last night he shared
> triple creme brie and pate on crackers with me.
>
> > #### probably because of the aroma. Maybe take the half
> chicken...sear the
> > skin for a couple of seconds in the pan, then serve. After a week
> or two
> > you won't need to do this any longer.
>
> I did this today. I thought it smelled great! He did not eat it. I
> cut the warmed up, slightly seared, mostly raw chicken into strips and
> tried to get him to eat it. No luck. As an experiment, I fully
> cooked it. He ate it all in short order, but he didn't eat
> ravenously. It was only 1:30 pm and historically, he's not terribly
> hungry at that time. So, I will try the trick again later in the day.

1 hour later, he threw everything up. The vomit had a strong yellow
color, which I have not seen previously. Possibly that's the color of
the crackers. So, no brie or pate for awhile, and no crackers at all.
He's had brie and pate in the past and not thrown up, but they may
not be the greatest things to give him, and I'm not sure what quantity
I gave him last night. I think I was a little too generous.
Oftentimes I only give him a taste of the food, so that he has the
culinary experience and doesn't feel left out, but isn't eating enough
to cause him stomach upset.

So, I can't take today's "searing trial" as any indication of
anything. His stomach was upset before I even gave him any chicken, I
think; it would explain his relative lack of enthusiasm for even the
cooked chicken. Maybe he'll like seared meat just fine when his
stomach is normal.

BTW I've noticed he very much likes raw blood. He will lick a whole
chicken thoroughly to get the blood off it.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:16 pm ((PST))

Hello Joe!
(& anyone else living in NY from Buffalo to Rochester to Syracuse):

One great way to get a good variety of meat and cheaper bulk prices is
to join a co-op. Check out WNYRaw on yahoo groups
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/WNYRaw/

We do our distribution from Rochester, but there are several people
from the Syracuse area who take turns coming up to Rochester to pick
up orders, or someone drives down to a Syracuse exit and people meet
up there. This weekend I am driving out from Buffalo to get a deer
carcass, some turkey necks, beef hearts, locally farmed and dehydrated
chicken and livers strips for treats. Check it out! Even if you don't
have a big freezer,you can split cases with other people who are
ordering. Plus, its a great group of people who feed raw and love to
talk dogs, which also fun!

~Meg

I
> live in Syracuse, NY and I am wondering what type of places are best
> to find raw meat like cow ribs, chicken necks etc... The main
> supermarkets have pre-packaged meats and not much selection on Meaty
> bones. Should I be going to butcher shops, farms? Where are some
> places

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. First raw piece of chicken successfully consumed!!!
Posted by: "Annette" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:28 pm ((PST))

Hallo everyone! I just wanted to report that I started to feed raw as
of today.I gave my dachshund a chicken drumstick,I was wondering if she
would eat it but as it turns out there was no cause to wonder,she took
it to the livingroom (yes, another livingroom feeder)where it got
devoured in no time at all.That was about 3 hours ago and at the moment
she's beside me snoring up a storm,no problems so far as far as
vomiting. I plan on giving her another piece tonight which I hope will
not be too much(she weighs 26lb.) Annette.

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: frozen/fresh
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mgitaville" <mgitaville@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am curious as to if there is a difference with digestion between
> > fresh or frozen. Not one of my dogs will eat if food is too cold so i
> > must warm it in a sink of hot water.

> ******First let me just say that you have been trained well by your
> dogs! :) They may prefer it warm, but if you did not give in to their
> demand of warming it I assure you they would eat it cold.
>
> Second, I can not answer your question about digestion entirely, but

> Marguerita
>

I don't know if this is one of those ways in which cats and dogs differ, but in my
experience, cats, if they actually eat some too-cold food (which my current cats will only
do if it's their favorite cut of beef that they are piggy for, or if we come home much later
than expected and they're ravenous), will often throw it up, and/or have diarrhea. As I've
certainly gotten stomachaches, headaches and GI distress myself from eating ice cream or
drinking chilled drinks in the summer, I'm guessing that some other individuals from
various species have similar discomfort. Another thing about cold or frozen food is that it
has even less odor than room- or body-temperature raw meat--which seems to make it
less attractive to cats, though the same piece of meat a couple of hours later is very
interesting. My cats are not prima donnas and generally eat just about everything, except
food when it's cold. Since I figured this out, I usually have thawed it out enough and/or
put it in warm water just before serving, but if I don't have time to do that, if I put the food
out and leave it, they just wait until it's room-temp and then eat it. Unless it's strong-
smelling beef...

Well, obviously, eating cold food slowly enough that it is completely warmed by the time it
reaches the stomach would be ideal, but even though my cats and myself all know our
next meal is secure, I guess none of us has yet learned to be as smart as Marguerita's
dogs! But I have to say, if we are following a Prey Model diet and trying to replicate the
natural eating experience as best as possible, I guess I would be interested to know why
it's okay to serve still-frozen food? Could there not in fact be something crucial about
temperature for optimum health?

Sarah, hominid
Henry & Ivan, felidae
Quercus & Ilex, mustelidae

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: frozen/fresh/Sara
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Each one of mine is very different so it may just be an individual system as to cold/warm. I have never seen anything in print about it.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:35 pm ((PST))

Jessica MacMillan <spotted101@...> wrote:
>> I am one of the people that does veggies. I do it for about a week
and then not do it for about two weeks. I also add liver
occasionally, chicken gizzards, heart, etc.
>
> I do have some questions:
>
> 1. Tripe? Is it an essential in the diet it? I am contemplating
this one.. Dogs will love it.
*****
Raw green tripe is more nutritious for dogs than vegetables are but
as with vegetables, tripe is not essential. And green tripe is not a
substitute for vegetables either, if you were thinking along those
lines.

> 2. Deer bones. I do feed venison and olive oil. I picked up some
deer shanks with meet on them. They are cut into about 4 inch long
bones... How do people feel about deer bones?
*****
Deer bones are either edible or they are not, depending on the
capabilities of the dog. Bare naked bones are never useful, but
bones with meat on them at the very least offer meat. If the bones
are generally meatless, an argument can still be made for the "pick
clean" benefit.

Unfortunately, the bone sections you got are not large enough for a
big dog to pick clean. I would not feed those deer bones to my
retrievers. I would however be willing to give them to my 10lb cat.
For my retrievers I would cut off any available meat and toss the
bones.

There is no functional nutritional reason to feed your dogs olive
oil. They have no need for Omega 9; they have no need for any oil
that is not animal-based. You are not feeding omnivores or
herbivores, you are feeding carnivores. If you are looking to
supplement with any oil, it should be fish oil or other animal-based
oil: Omega 3.

> 3. Fish... Living in WI and having a friend who hunts and fishes, I
am wondering what people thing of fish heads, etc...
*****
Fish heads--whole fish--are generally a nice source of high quality
animal protein, so if you are looking for ways to broaden your menu,
fish is a good bet. If you are concerned about parasites, freeze the
fish for a week or two. If you are concerned about toxic
accumulations, figure that if a human is willing to eat fish from any
given water source, you can feed the fish to your dogs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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7a. Re: DEER MEAT
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:38 pm ((PST))

"Diana Jones" <dianajones@...> wrote:
>
> Can you feed a deer head?
*****
Yes.

Also, does
> deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?
*****
No, but you can if you want to. Makes some people feel better. It's
up to you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: DEER MEAT
Posted by: "Candee Brey" candee@netnet.net candeeloubrey
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

I would find out if the deer were taken in a CWS area before I would
give it to the dogs.
Cats can get CWS.

Candee
Wisconsin
On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Diana Jones wrote:

> Can you feed a deer head? I hit a jack pot and have a source of deer
> meat. I go thru all of his "scraps" and take what I want. Also, does
> deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?
>
> Thank you,
> Diana
> Texas
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:58 pm ((PST))

"Laura" <lasme8@...> wrote:
>> Could I ask, what NOT to give in the way of fish and meat parts.
*****
Please remember to trim your posts. It is highly probable that
untrimmed posts will be deleted. Thanks.

Ideally, you want to offer whole fish and let the dog decide what
parts are edible. Other than catfish barbs or whatever they're
called that I would cut off if I were feeding catfish, I can't think
of any other processing that you need consider.

> Some fish has high mercury count like tuna.
*****
It is albacore that offers the highest levels of mercury. Other less
desirable tuna with darker, more oily flesh present less of a
hazard.

In all cases, ocean fish that grow quickly to a small adult size will
be less of a mercury/toxic accumulation problem than fish that grow
slowly to large or giant adulthood. Additionally, fish that are wild
caught but sustainably harvested will be "better" than fish whose
wild populations are diminished. And of course those ocean fish that
meet the above tests and offer high levels of Omega 3 fatty acid are
the total, absolute winners in the "fish as protein variety" catagory.

> Like for instance, veal shanks have little round bones (sometimes
as
> little as 2 inches). Today I bought goat cubes, which have little
> bone (cut).
*****
These are good for stewing, braising and maybe even bbq but they are
too small for most dogs. I would not hesitate to feed them to my
cats though.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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9a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/3/2007 11:56:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
arabianbluedobe@yahoo.com writes:

I heard you say beef can cause cannon butt, but in my experience, with
my dogs anyway, It is pork that causes the cannon butt.

April,

that is why one of the most common sayings on this list is "know thy dog",
every dog reacts to various things differently, and all dogs live up (or down)
to their owner's expectations.

Catherine R.

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products.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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10a. evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
>
> > ### once again, need I say more? Cooked meat is no better for him
> > then kibble.
>
> And, give that even "high end" kibbles like Innova got recalled /
> killed dogs recently, I don't think anyone in the kibble industry
> has control over the factories. [...] any kind of human meat is
> better than kibble, even if cooked. Your dog won't die from it.
>
> ##### here is a snippet about 'cooked' meat. Feeding cooked meat
> is
> feeding 'dead' meat, and the health issues over time by doing so are
> staggering. It challenges their digestive systems to work overtime
> with an unrecognisable protein.
>
> "commercial foods are heat processed, thereby effectively destroying
> the natural enzymes present in the ingredients and the fact that
> the vast majority of pet foods are made with animal parts that have
> been determined unfit for human consumption and have been treated
> with chemicals to ensure they do not get back into the human food
> chain."

I'm not here to advocate cooked food, but I feel you're conflating 2
health issues. One is very serious: the chemicals, dead crap, and
completely inorganic crap in rendered "meals" found in kibble.
There's plenty of data on this, it's clearly bad for dogs.

A loss of enzymes in cooked meat, on the other hand, is probably just
"not ideal." People make the same arguments about human food, and
despite our non-ideal sources of enzymes, vitamins, minerals, some
people live to be 100+. I bet there's very little data on dogs that
eat only cooked meat and organs + raw bones to help clean their
teeth, as almost nobody feeds their dogs this way nowadays. Nor is
there any industrial interest in tracking this, as there is with
kibble. It's important to realize that before modern kibble, dogs did
eat the leftovers or whatever else they could scrounge up. Doesn't
seem like we have good data from pre-WW II, but the anecdotes seem to
be that dogs were healthier.

If you've got some definitive evidence that human grade cooked meat
is terribly bad for dogs, that the proteins in cooked meat are
"unrecognizable" to their digestive tracts, I'm open to reviewing
it. But let's not conflate that with kibble issues. Kibble is waste
disposal and industrially unsafe, even amongst the most well-meaning
"trying to do the right thing" dog food companies. You're preaching
to the choir on that one.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (14)
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10b. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:07 pm ((PST))

### chapter 4 of Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health will answer all of the
above questions. I believe you can read each individual chapter, if you
don't own the book, @

www.rawmeatybones.com

Chia & Ricco

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10c. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:19 pm ((PST))

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but there is some info about
cooked meats here....

http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "vanevery0" <bvanevery@gmail.com>

Messages in this topic (14)
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10d. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
>
> ### chapter 4 of Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health will answer all
of the
> above questions. I believe you can read each individual chapter, if you
> don't own the book, @

www.rawmeatybones.com

Only the beginning of any given chapter. Which in the case of Chapter
4, was a useless metaphor about car exhaust. I guess they want me to
buy the book. :-) I've learned that the author more recently wrote
"Work Wonders: Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones".

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/book-ww.php

I'm also learning about controversies in the anti-kibble universe from
the articles on his website. For instance, is the evolutionary
pressure of a natural dog diet based on nutritional content of various
body parts, or the cleaning action of bones upon the teeth to prevent
peridontal disease? How would one separate out the variables of the
"natural experiment?" Are statements liked "cooked meat is bad," "the
diet shouldn't have so many bones," "there should be a greater or
lesser variety of organs in the diet" based on scientific evidence, or
conjectures that Nature has devised a diet perfectly *and* monotonically?

I'll add my own complicating question: we know that modern,
man-polluted environments *suck*. How does that affect what's a good
eating pattern in the wild nowadays? Environments have sucked pretty
much since we've been measuring wild animal health. Maybe you win if
you manage to avoid whatever part of the body holds the most mercury.
Anyways, who says the wild animals we pay attention to are winning?
Maybe various populations die sooner rather than later, just living
long enough to reproduce and propagate the species.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (14)
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10e. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but there is some info
about
> cooked meats here....
>
> http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html

That info is very mixed in quality. Actually, it read as if he cut and
pasted a lot of snippets of information into one document and never
bothered to edit.

If it were true, as he implies, that all of certain amino acids were
destroyed at 43 degrees C, then no kibble-fed dogs could thrive or
reproduce, and neither could people since we eat almost all of our
protein sources cooked. It is sloppy writing to word something to
suggest that. Some percent of certain amino acids may be lost at some
temperatures; that is different from impying they all are lost.

Denaturation of proteins makes them unusable for their original
function. But when we, or dogs, eat proteins, we need the amino acids
from them - we don't need them for their original function. So in that
way, denaturation is not a problem. It's my impression that depending
on the protein, denaturation may make digestion easier or harder
depending on how the digestion sites of the protein are exposed. I
think there can also be a problem for digesion if crosslinks are
formed that aren't digestible by the gut enzymes. But again, we eat
essentially all our meat cooked, and kibble-fed dogs eat all their
protein cooked. If this denaturation were so serious as to be
prohibitive for protein digestion, we would all be suffering from
malnutrition. It's a comparative thing. Raw may be better, but cooked
isn't a disaster in the way that article suggests.

He mentions Kouchakoff. Kouchakoff was a researcher in the '30s. I
have never found anything in current research that suggests any truth
in his findings. The only place his name ever seems to appera is on
raw food sites. His results as far as I could tell sounded flaky. I'm
not impressed that he was mentioned in this article.

And the article claims that because the enzymes in raw foods are
destroyed by cooking, the body's enzyme potential is depleted,
shortening life span. There is no such thing as enzyme potential; this
is bogus. Again, he gets no respect from me for including that bit in
his article.

Marty

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11.1. Salmon Oil
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:43 pm ((PST))

Going for the salmon oil, how many capsules/teaspoons? Daily, weekly?
One dog is 108 lbs, the other is 66 lbs.

Not sure if I should go for capsules or liquid in bottle? I am thinking
bottle.

Sai
--

Messages in this topic (130)
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11.2. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

"Not sure if I should go for capsules or liquid in bottle? I am thinking
bottle."

The bottle is more cost effective. Lots of people recommend Grizzley Salmon
Oil. I give 4 capsules each to my bunch daily. They weigh 85-97 lbs.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (130)
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11.3. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ephen" <stephenc@...> wrote:
>
> Salmon oil is very expensive here (Taiwan). Would
> you say it is necessary?

I am merely an informed amateur at this, but...

The animal-based Omega-3's that you're after are DHA and EPA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid#Fish
There are lotsa kinds of fish that have them, so "Salmon" oil is
surely pointless. "Fish" oil is what you need. For instance, cod
liver oil is readily available at most pharmacies in the USA. An
older generation used to take it for all manner of ailments, so it is
still sold to the geriatrics.

Flax is high in plant-based ALA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid#Flax
I read somewhere that dogs can't convert this into a usable omega-3,
i.e. dogs aren't plant eaters and you shouldn't be feeding a
plant-based omega-3 to your dog. But I can't find a reference for
that right now.

I would be very careful about where your fish oil comes from. Mercury
poisoning and other industrial pollutants in fish are common nowadays.
A particularly big offender is China, right next door to you. I
wouldn't buy Chinese food anything for anyone: man, beast, houseplant,
don't care. I haven't figured out any ironclad protocol for ensuring
that a fish oil isn't tainted. I'm hoping that if they sell it in a
USA pharmacy, it doesn't contain heavy elements. But I could be
mistaken, as the USA's FDA isn't exercising much oversight on food
supplements.

It is possible to overdose your dog, or a human, on vitamins that are
not water-soluble. For instance, Vitamin A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinol#Retinoid_overdose_.28toxicity.29
I have no idea what a "correct" dose of fish oil for my 65 lb. dog is,
so for now I've stopped giving him any.

Do DHA and EPA omega-3's have beneficial effects for your dog? I'm
not sure. Anecdotally, my dog's coat might be shinier and less itchy,
but I really can't tell. It's wintertime in the USA now, so there's a
lot of dry heat in the house. His coat is kinda dry lately, but
there's an obvious reason for it.

My dog has some kind of allergy. His ears are irritated and his anal
glands need to be expressed too often. Dry coat could be due to
allergy also, or it could just be the heat in the house. My vet has
suggested that it could be a food allergy. So, I'm trying to do a
dietary purge / simplification to see if that helps him. That's what
brought me to the raw feeding list. As part that purge, I stopped
giving him the cod liver oil, because its actual effects on him are
unknown. For all I know, it could be part of the problem. Either
because cod liver oil happens to be bad for him, or *the particular*
cod liver oil I gave him is contaminated with something, or I'm just
giving him too much of it, who knows. Right now I don't want any
variables.

Does your dog have any health issues that you're currently trying to
resolve?

> green peppers, garlic, cucumber, spinach, kelp, alfalfa, flax oil,
> apple cider vinegar, omega 3 oils (not refrigerated from pet store),
> yams (cooked), banana and pineapple and carrots (treats)
> ---> OCCASIONALLY!!

Have you considered the possibility of allergic reactions to any or
all of these ingredients? I was feeding my dog "high end" Solid Gold
no-grain kibble, and no-grain Innova kibble before that. They have
all that "great stuff" in them. For all I know, one of those
ingredients could be causing him the allergy problem. So to heck with
them, for now.

For all I know, my dog could be allergic to pollen. Apparently that's
ultra-common in North Carolina, USA. In the middle of the state, we
get weird pollens both from coastal trees and mountain trees.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (130)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: frozen/fresh/Marguerita
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

LOL- you are more than right about training. I know prey is warm but as cold frozen leftovers have been scavenged I was just curious.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

That's a great idea! I've thought about that before and would love to
contribute. I don't have as much as experience as the others but am a
decent writer/English major. :D

Jess & Toby

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "arabianbluedobe"
<arabianbluedobe@...> wrote:
>
> Since there are no good raw fedder books out there, maybe we should
all
> get together and write one based on fact and a lot of personal
> stories. I would definately buy it. I'll also help with the
writing.
> Any takers?
> April
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. DEER MEAT, whats cws?
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

whats cws?

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
> > It will lose nutritional value little by little
>
> every time I put Holly on raw, she gets diarrhea.
>
> Anyway, my point is that my freezer is in my sister's garage (plugged
> in of course) and has a bunch of meat in it...I just wondered if there
> was any reason to keep it.

So, perfectly edible, human grade meat gives your dog diarrhea. To
such a dog, you plan to give 10-year old "crap meat" that probably has
no nutritional value whatsoever. What are you thinking? Haven't you
ever gotten the runs from eating a can of tuna? If the meat is low
quality it's low quality, don't "save" it for your dog. I have no
idea when meat goes bad but c'mon, 10 years??

If your dog always gets diarrhea from eating something, that's a sign
that your dog shouldn't be eating it. It means its innards are being
messed up a lot, i.e. you're doing damage. For this reason, my dog
never gets cooked beef short ribs that have been chopped by a meat
cleaver. They are too sharp in his digestive tract, they would always
give him diarrhea. I'd see the little square chips come out his other
end. Never had any problem with large cooked beef knuckle or shin
bones that he has to gnaw on, they are not sharp. A cooked beef bone
is theoretically not supposed to be bad for a dog, but my experience
is that if the bone is sharply cut, it's a problem. So no cooked
T-bones for him either. He's doing fine with raw chicken bones lately.

I've given my dog all kinds of human food, just so he can experience
the flavor of life. If he vomits or has diarrhea, he doesn't get it
anymore. If it doesn't go all the way through him "clean" then as far
as I'm concerned it's not food.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12341

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird st
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Laura Bonavia
2b. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Chia
2c. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Giselle
2d. Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
From: Jessica MacMillan
2e. Re: Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
From: Andrea
2f. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Laura

3a. Re: Something to give during birth....
From: Tina Berry

4a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Sarah
4b. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Sylvia Tetzlaff
4c. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: vanevery0
4d. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Chia
4e. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Andrea

5a. types of places to buy raw locally
From: j2dope17
5b. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
From: Giselle
5c. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
From: j2dope17

6a. Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Tiffany
6b. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Tina Berry
6c. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Tiffany

7a. DEER MEAT
From: Diana Jones
7b. Re: DEER MEAT
From: Tina Berry
7c. Re: DEER MEAT
From: mgitaville

8a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: arabianbluedobe

9a. Re: Raw Book list
From: arabianbluedobe

10a. Re: frozen/fresh
From: mgitaville

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird st
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

"jordan_spiva" <jordan_spiva@...> wrote:
> Is there a nutritional diference in stomaches from mammals and
stomaches from birds?
*****
To some degree; although the gizzard that's generally called the
bird's stomach is not the bird's real (anatomical) stomach. Ah,
details. Live by 'em, die by 'em.

Anyway. An uncleaned gizzard is not likely to hold anything
especially nutritious for a carnivore. The uncleaned stomachs of a
ruminant (them what chews their cuds) may offer something of value to
a dog, probably not to a cat. Ditto the uncleaned stomach of an
ungulate (them what do not chew their cuds, like a pig). The actual
tissues that either gizzard or stomach is made from are probably
similarly nutritious (or not).

we need to know which would be better for both them and their mom. Or
> are they the same.
*****
Neither of them by themselves are adequate nutrition for a Momma Cat
and her babies. Why are you limiting your options to these two
marginal protein sources?

You should be feeding Momma Cat meat and bones and organs, just as
you would feed to a Momma Dog. The more nourishment going into Momma
Cat, the more nourishment going into the babies, plain and simple.

If you cannot feed her mice and rats and rabbits and other small
mammals, you can feed her chicken and pork and beef and fish, which
means not only the flesh, but also the fat and connective tissue and
edible bones and organs. If she will not eat these raw foods you
will need to feed her whatever else she WILL eat, if you expect her
and her babies to survive.

For specific cat information, you can join:
Post message: rawcat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawcat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: rawcat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Good luck!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Laura Bonavia" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:06 am ((PST))

I now see that I have to reply to group instead of to
sender.

Now I see that I have to give large portion of meat
with some bone but last night gave him the turkey neck
and a chicken neck. Too much bone, am afraid if this
will be a problem. Please advise. I had already
bought a small supply of ground, but want to feed as
you say, whole portions. Do you have advise about
using up the ground.

Thank you so much for your help. Can't wait to get
this straight.

Laura

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Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

I now see that I have to reply to group instead of to
sender.

#### if you must feed the ground, perhaps give a good 'gnaw' meal prior,
so the stomach acids are prepped and he/she gets the oral workout required
for mental/physical stimulation, THEN, plop the ground down like a finishing
desert.

This way, you have the best of both worlds without wasting the ground you
have left. In the future, feed only whole or LARGE items, depending on the
size of your dog. It's as simple as prey...as nature intended. Feed necks
when attached to the whole bird instead.

:-))

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

Hi, Laura!
Do what I do when I buy necks and ground - sometimes they are
*too* cheap to pass up!

Wad the ground onto an end of the turkey neck and freeze - you can do a
bunch of them this way. Just feed frozen and your dog will have a bigger,
meatier meal. Or, if you have some chicken necks, just stuff some ground
around several of them and freeze, etc. Works. You can do it with beef
heart, too.

I feed little sardines or smelts the same way - usually get them in a 2 lb
bag, so one frozen/stuck together bag of 'em is 2 days worth. No meal, or a
pork neck bone or lamb thingy or a couple of beef ribs in a slab will do 'er
the next day.

Oh, raw feeding is a figure it out as you go along kinda deal - fun, and
lovely for the dogs!

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
>
>
> Now I see that I have to give large portion of meat
> with some bone but last night gave him the turkey neck
> and a chicken neck. Too much bone, am afraid if this
> will be a problem. Please advise. I had already
> bought a small supply of ground, but want to feed as
> you say, whole portions. Do you have advise about
> using up the ground.
>
> Thank you so much for your help. Can't wait to get
> this straight.
>
> Laura
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
Posted by: "Jessica MacMillan" spotted101@hotmail.com jessica.macmillan
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

Good Morning Everyone -

My name is Jessica and I have two GSDs - 8 year old Simmie who has a CGC., TDI., TC and 17 month old Pepper who is making her "for real" debut in the show ring next month.

I am a second generation dog person as my mom has been breeding and showing dalmatians for over 40 with over 150 champions and many other titles. I have completed championships on Dals, Flat-Coated Retrievers, Goldens, Brittanies and Vizslas.

I am not really new to raw as my mom has been feeding it with great success for about 8 years.. She has been a great source of info and resources... However there are a couple of questions that I do have she is not sure about.

I have been feeding it for 6 months and LOVE the results. My girls have fabulous coats, beautiful hard muscling, bright eyes and pearlie white teeth. I switched to raw after much research and the fact that my elder Shepherd has been put under twice to have her teeth clean.

We do primarily chicken but also mackarel, beef/pork necks, venison, etc... I do fish oil almost every day and they do get Gluc/Chondroitin for their joints. I also add garlic once in a while and yogurt/eggs in the morning.

I am one of the people that does veggies. I do it for about a week and then not do it for about two weeks. I also add liver occasionally, chicken gizzards, heart, etc.

I do have some questions:

1. Tripe? Is it an essential in the diet it? I am contemplating this one.. Dogs will love it.
2. Deer bones. I do feed venison and olive oil. I picked up some deer shanks with meet on them. They are cut into about 4 inch long bones... How do people feel about deer bones? We did ribs yesterday and the dogs LOVED them.
3. Fish... Living in WI and having a friend who hunts and fishes, I am wondering what people thing of fish heads, etc... I certainly wouldn't make it a staple in the dogs diet, but if I have the option, I would like to add it.

I am looking forward to the list...

Jess Mac
Paisley Dals (www.paisleydals.com)
& The Shepherd Girls (Simmie, CGC., TDI., TT and Pepper *FUTURE STAR*)
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Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:14 pm ((PST))

Welcome to the group, Jessica.

> I have been feeding it for 6 months and LOVE the results. My girls
> have fabulous coats, beautiful hard muscling, bright eyes and
> pearlie white teeth.

Great! It really is amazing how quickly we see benefits from feeding
a species appropriate diet.

> I am one of the people that does veggies. I do it for about a week
> and then not do it for about two weeks.

Well, as long as you know your dogs don't need the veggies. Your pet
carnivores would do just as fine without them and you would have more
free time without the pulping/juicing. If you can't give them up
just make sure the veggies are fed as an extra to normal meals, don't
let it take the place of good meat/bones/organs.

> I also add liver occasionally, chicken gizzards, heart, etc.

Excellent, for raw feeding purposes we consider heart, gizzard and
tongue as "meat" just so you know. Liver is definitely an organ
along with other squidgy things.

> 1. Tripe? Is it an essential in the diet it?

Nope. Some dogs love it, and it can be used as a great bribe food.
I wouldn't put it any higher than any other meat though. It's good
for variety, but no need to break the bank getting it.

> 2. Deer bones. I do feed venison and olive oil. I picked up some
> deer shanks with meet on them. They are cut into about 4 inch long
> bones... How do people feel about deer bones?

I'm not a fan of bare bones or cut up bones. If they were the whole
shank I'd probably let the dogs strip the meat and tendons off before
taking it away. My dogs aren't to be trusted with 4 inch long boney
things. A slab of deer ribs or whole meaty bones would be welcome at
my house any time.

> I am wondering what people thing of fish heads, etc...

My boys love fish heads, especially salmon. It's a good way to add
non kidney/liver organs into the diet. In general, if you would eat
the fish it's ok to give to your pups.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

2f. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Laura" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:51 pm ((PST))

Hi,

Could I ask, what NOT to give in the way of fish and meat parts.

Some fish has high mercury count like tuna. I will try to stick to
wild grown, salmon, cod.

Like for instance, veal shanks have little round bones (sometimes as
little as 2 inches). Today I bought goat cubes, which have little
bone (cut).

Laura

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Laura!
> Do what I do when I buy necks and ground - sometimes
they are
> *too* cheap to pass up!
>
> Wad the ground onto an end of the turkey neck and freeze - you can
do a
> bunch of them this way. Just feed frozen and your dog will have a
bigger,
> meatier meal. Or, if you have some chicken necks, just stuff some
ground
> around several of them and freeze, etc. Works. You can do it with
beef
> heart, too.
>
> I feed little sardines or smelts the same way - usually get them
in a 2 lb
> bag, so one frozen/stuck together bag of 'em is 2 days worth. No
meal, or a
> pork neck bone or lamb thingy or a couple of beef ribs in a slab
will do 'er
> the next day.
>
> Oh, raw feeding is a figure it out as you go along kinda deal -
fun, and
> lovely for the dogs!
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
> <snip>
> >
> >
> > Now I see that I have to give large portion of meat
> > with some bone but last night gave him the turkey neck
> > and a chicken neck. Too much bone, am afraid if this
> > will be a problem. Please advise. I had already
> > bought a small supply of ground, but want to feed as
> > you say, whole portions. Do you have advise about
> > using up the ground.
> >
> > Thank you so much for your help. Can't wait to get
> > this straight.
> >
> > Laura
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Something to give during birth....
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:06 am ((PST))

"I am going to let her continue to eat however she likes and we will see
what she does with the bone towards the end."

Good plan. Mine craved organs towards the end and no bone, but I did not
supplement with anything, just let her eat whatever she wanted.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Sarah" hecarte@hotmail.com sarah_uk_2000_2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:06 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Van Every" <bvanevery@...>
wrote:
>
> If I give him chicken or duck organs raw, he won't eat them. They're
> only bite sized so there's nothing difficult about them. He simply
> doesn't like them raw. If I nuke them in the microwave briefly, he'll
> gobble them up.

Hi Brandon,
I'm very new to raw feeding (18th day!) and my dog wouldn't eat the
chicken liver I got for him (I got 500g so I was a bit disappointed).

Anyway, a good tip I was given is freeze the liver then slice very
thinly with a knife. This worked a treat - he gobbles it up like that!

HTH,
Sarah (UK)

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Sylvia Tetzlaff" stetzlaff@yahoo.com stetzlaff
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

My dog isn't eating raw either, but for a different
reason, I think. He's a 10 y/o 10 lb. Pomeranian
puppy mill rescue, and his some of his front teeth are
fractured, and others are broken, presumably from
trying to chew his way out of the cage. I've had him
to the vet; x-rays revealed the remnants of some of
the teeth are still under the gums, and the gums have
healed over. There were no obvious problems with
infection for these teeth, so the vet chose not to
extract them, just keep an eye on them.

I've offered him a chicken leg quarter on one
occasion, and a chicken breast on the other. I
ribboned the meat to give him something to start on,
and he did a good job of latching on, tearing, and
chewing, but the minute his teeth touched a solid
bone, he freaked out, got scared and ran away.

I think maybe he's reacting this way because he's
never chewed real food before, but I don't know how to
help him overcome his fear. I'm also worried that his
encounters with solid bone are causing him pain
because of his dental issues. I tried to feed him
more chicken breast this morning, but after last
night's 'bone scare', he wouldn't even try chewing the
meat.

Would appreciate hearing from anyone else out there
who has had a similar experience with their raw dogs.

Thanks,

Sylvia

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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

> ### he'll learn, trust me. Been there, done that. Be patient...it
doesn't
> happen overnight or even in a few days ....you have fed him
commercial food
> for how many years?.. His instincts have been shut down for so
long...give
> him time and don't spoil or cajole!

He's 2 years old. In addition to "high end" kibble, I've spared him
no culinary flavor of the human variety. When we were poor, we used
to dive for pizza in the garbage can. When I got rich, then I'd just
order him a slice. I'm sparing on the non-meat items nowadays, for
his health, but he gets lotsa cooked meat leftovers. Maybe his palate
is as sophisticated as I hoped to make it, LOL! Last night he shared
triple creme brie and pate on crackers with me. My thought is, dogs
have an incredible sense of smell. Taste in humans is mostly smell,
so maybe it's true for dogs? So maybe they're capable of fully
appreciating everything. I have learned, however, to only give him a
bite at a time of fancy human food. Otherwise he'll wolf the whole
thing down in 30 seconds and then what's the point, he's not tasting
anything.

> ### simply a training issue and YOU'RE the boss. Give him the
item. When
> he drags it away from the spot you have designated, a firm 'no' or a
word of
> your choosing, even a growl whilst you remove the item is all that is
> required. Redirect him back to his spot, set it down, praise. This may
> take multiple times but eventually, he'll get it.

Ok I'm doing this now.

> If I *cook* the meat, get rid of the bones, and put it in front of
> him, it disappears in 30 seconds. Any quantity.
>
> ### once again, need I say more? Cooked meat is no better for him
> then kibble.

Well, considering that it's 100% human grade meat, not rendered meal
products, I wouldn't go that far. I strongly suspect that rendering
processes are the source of his allergies. It's not grain, there's no
grain in the kibble I was giving him. I bet "salmon meal" is the
culprit. Wonder how much salmon is in salmon meal, as opposed to just
dead stuff in general? What I've read is you have no way of knowing.
And, give that even "high end" kibbles like Innova got recalled /
killed dogs recently, I don't think anyone in the kibble industry has
control over the factories. I think they all just outsource to the
same factories that get sloppy and kill all the dogs. People blame
China but I've learned the USA Food and Drug Administration ain't on
the stick either. "Buying USA" won't save your dog's life. Yeah,
when I put it that way, *of course* any kind of human meat is better
than kibble, even if cooked. Your dog won't die from it.

> Of course, the cats should be eating raw as well but they're a bit
> trickier I have heard.

Actually, Thelma jolly well loves raw meat and comes around whenever
I'm trying to get Kodiak to eat it. Think I'll try converting her.
It's Mom's cat so she may not go for an entirely raw diet, but Thelma
will have fun. Louise hasn't shown tremendous interest but she's not
the pushy queen of the house. I might be able to get her interested.
Yes our cats are named "Thelma & Louise." Mom got divorced recently
so this is apropos!

> #### probably because of the aroma. Maybe tale the half
chicken...sear the
> skin for a couple of seconds in the pan, then serve. After a week
or two
> you won't need to do this any longer.

I did this today. I thought it smelled great! He did not eat it. I
cut the warmed up, slightly seared, mostly raw chicken into strips and
tried to get him to eat it. No luck. As an experiment, I fully
cooked it. He ate it all in short order, but he didn't eat
ravenously. It was only 1:30 pm and historically, he's not terribly
hungry at that time. So, I will try the trick again later in the day.

He has eaten chunks of raw duck meat in the past, that I fed him in
strips. So I don't think he has an inherent objection to it being
raw. But so far, he clearly prefers it cooked.

I also confirmed today that he doesn't care for chicken skin. Raw or
cooked, it appears to be too rubbery and fatty to be of interest.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

> ### once again, need I say more? Cooked meat is no better for him
> then kibble.

##### here is a snippet about 'cooked' meat. Feeding cooked meat is
feeding 'dead' meat, and the health issues over time by doing so are
staggering. It challenges their digestive systems to work overtime with an
unrecognisable protein. You show me a wolf with a bar-b-q and then we'll
talk.. ;-))

Among the many reason to avoid feeding commercial pet food, two predominate:

commercial foods are heat processed, thereby effectively destroying the

natural enzymes present in the ingredients and the fact that the vast

majority of pet foods are made with animal parts that have been determined

unfit for human consumption and have been treated with chemicals to ensure

they do not get back into the human food chain. Enzymes are an essential

aid in proper digestion of foods and supply the body with the energy needed

for such activities as the formation and elimination of urea and carbon

dioxide and other toxins from the kidneys, lungs, colon, liver, spleen and

skin created during the process of metabolism. Ingesting quantities of

contaminated and indigestible animal parts and plant material on a daily

basis cannot be considered conducive to good health. Studying carnivore

anatomy, physiology and eating habits show us that we are doing our domestic

friends a great disservice by not feeding the the way nature intende

He has eaten chunks of raw duck meat in the past, that I fed him in
strips. So I don't think he has an inherent objection to it being
raw. But so far, he clearly prefers it cooked.

I also confirmed today that he doesn't care for chicken skin. Raw or
cooked, it appears to be too rubbery and fatty to be of interest.

### you just haven't given this long enough. If you want the best for your
dog, you have to feed him as nature intended, period. It's not that he
cannot exist on cooked food, he can for awhile, but his health will
deteriorate FAST not to mention how the mouth rot will quickly escalate.

No chunks of meat cut... no hand feeding...none of it. If you carry on as
you are, he will continue to play games and refuse things. Do as I have
advised and within a week you will have a non-fussy dog who will eat what
you set out and respect you like you won't believe, don't do as any of us
advise and he will continue to turn his spoiled nose up at the food he is
supposed to eat. Simple as that.

Chia & Ricco
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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

4e. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

You could start with softer bones and see if that helps him. Get some
cornish game hens, their bones are so soft they are more like
cartilage. They are more expensive than older chickens, but that will
help you know if he can get over the bone issue. If he continues to be
upset by solid things touching his teeth you need to go back to the vet
and investigate having the bad teeth extracted. He might be able to
eat mush forever but if chomping a soft bone hurts his teeth and gums
it is likely he is in a constant state of dull pain.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Tetzlaff <stetzlaff@...>
wrote:

> I've had him to the vet; x-rays revealed the remnants of some of
> > the teeth are still under the gums, and the gums have
> healed over. There were no obvious problems with
> infection for these teeth, so the vet chose not to
> extract them, just keep an eye on them.

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "j2dope17" j2dope17@yahoo.com j2dope17
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

I did a bit of searching through old posts but didn't find quit what I
was looking for so sorry if this has been asked 1000 times before. I
live in Syracuse, NY and I am wondering what type of places are best
to find raw meat like cow ribs, chicken necks etc... The main
supermarkets have pre-packaged meats and not much selection on Meaty
bones. Should I be going to butcher shops, farms? Where are some
places I can get some good carcasses, whole fish and meaty bones
without spending a fortune. I can get frozen chicken quarters at a
grocery store near the house but thats about it unless I want to buy
pre-packaged ground stuff, which I don't. Thanks for the help!

-Joe

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:06 pm ((PST))

Hi, Joe!
What you need is The Lis List;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*
Tc
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 3, 2007 1:24 PM, j2dope17 <j2dope17@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I did a bit of searching through old posts but didn't find quit what I
> was looking for so sorry if this has been asked 1000 times before. I
> live in Syracuse, NY and I am wondering what type of places are best
> to find raw meat like cow ribs, chicken necks etc...
>

> <snip>
>

> Thanks for the help!
>
> -Joe
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "j2dope17" j2dope17@yahoo.com j2dope17
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:25 pm ((PST))

Giselle wrote:
>
> Hi, Joe!
> What you need is The Lis List;
>
> *http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

j2dope17 wrote:

> > I did a bit of searching through old posts but didn't find
quit what I
> > was looking for so sorry if this has been asked 1000 times
before. I
> > live in Syracuse, NY and I am wondering what type of places are
best
> > to find raw meat like cow ribs, chicken necks etc...

Thanks so much giselle that helps a lot! That was exactly what I was
looking for!
-Joe

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Tiffany" tiff.bob@verizon.net tifferv67
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

Hi everyone,

I'm new to raw feeding - have been working on it with my dog for about
the last two months. He's a big, 95-pound mixed breed German Shepherd
and who knows what else. He is 10 years old.

One of the staples in his diet has been raw chicken quarters, and he
seemed to be doing fine with them from the very beginning. However,
twice in the past week he has thrown up some fairly good sized pieces
of chicken bone, and I'm concerned. The first time, it was two of
those white
knuckle pieces and some little pieces. But today, it was some good
sized shards (2 - 3 inches long) and one of them was so sharp that I
pricked by finger when cleaning it up. I thought raw bones were not
brittle, but these certainly were.

I'm concerned that he's not handling these bones well and that they
could be doing damage. Any advice? Other info that might be important:

1) He doesn't seem to be sick - he hasn't thrown up anything other
than the chicken bones.

2) He does tend to wolf down his food, swallowing it after only
cracking it a few times. (He was kibble fed for almost 10 years, after
all, so he's pretty excited about his new diet.)

3) We give fairly small portions - 1/2 - 3/4 pounds of food, twice a
day. I know a lot of the raw feeding advocates recommend feeding once
a day, but I'm nervous about doing this. For one, he knows when it's
time to eat and comes a begging and I think would drive us all crazy
if we suddenly went to once a day. And two, he has a history of
throwing up stomach bile when his stomach is empty and he gets overly
hungry (although we haven't seen this as much with the new diet.)

Any advice anyone can give - I'd truly appreciate it.

Tiffany (& Coco)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

"For one, he knows when it's time to eat and comes a begging and I think
would drive us all crazy
if we suddenly went to once a day. And two, he has a history of throwing up
stomach bile when his stomach is empty"

On smaller pieces like chicken quarters, mine tend to give a couple crunches
and swallow too. You'd do better by giving him a 1/2 a chicken once a day -
it forces them to rip and chew. But sometimes they will still tear off a
piece and swallow it whole. Sounds like yours hasn't adjusted to fully
digesting the bigger chicken bones. There are digestive enzymes you can add
to help digest bones. Or just let his system get used to it over time.
Mine will still occassionally poop a shard or too if I've fed too large a
meal.

Throwing up stomach bile is from their stomach expecting food at a set time
of day. Mine did this too until I started mixing up the times I feed them.
Have never done it since.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Tiffany" tiff.bob@verizon.net tifferv67
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:25 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>
Sounds like yours hasn't adjusted to fully
> digesting the bigger chicken bones. There are digestive enzymes you
can add
> to help digest bones. Or just let his system get used to it over
time.

Thanks for your reply. We are giving him "Nutrigest" which is a
digestive aid recommended by our (new) vet when switching to raw.

> Throwing up stomach bile is from their stomach expecting food at a set
time
> of day. Mine did this too until I started mixing up the times I feed
them.
> Have never done it since.

You are right - it's when he's expecting food and it doesn't come. When
you started moving their feeding time around, how long did it take them
to adjust? Where there a few days or weeks of getting sick at their
"old" feeding time?

Tiffany

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. DEER MEAT
Posted by: "Diana Jones" dianajones@hughes.net msmanchester2003
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

Can you feed a deer head? I hit a jack pot and have a source of deer
meat. I go thru all of his "scraps" and take what I want. Also, does
deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?

Thank you,
Diana
Texas

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: DEER MEAT
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

"Can you feed a deer head?" Yes.

"I hit a jack pot and have a source of deer meat. I go thru all of his
"scraps" and take what I want. Also, does
deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?"

No. I feed mine right from the butcher before I bag it all up and freeze it
in 8lb bags.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: DEER MEAT
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Jones" <dianajones@...> wrote:
>
> Can you feed a deer head? I hit a jack pot and have a source of deer
> meat. I go thru all of his "scraps" and take what I want. Also, does
> deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?
>
> Thank you,
> Diana
> Texas
>

******A guy I know feeds his frenchies and basenjis (sp?) deer heads
without any issues. He offered me one, but with my picky "no fur
please" eater I knew it wouldn't get eaten.

As for freezing, I think a 4 week freeze is often recommended, but I
know many of us have fed a meal or scraps of deer while bagging or
cutting that was fresh and then just freeze the rest.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "arabianbluedobe" arabianbluedobe@yahoo.com arabianbluedobe
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

I heard you say beef can cause cannon butt, but in my experience, with
my dogs anyway, It is pork that causes the cannon butt.
April

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "arabianbluedobe" arabianbluedobe@yahoo.com arabianbluedobe
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

Since there are no good raw fedder books out there, maybe we should all
get together and write one based on fact and a lot of personal
stories. I would definately buy it. I'll also help with the writing.
Any takers?
April

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: frozen/fresh
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:25 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@...>
wrote:
>
> I am curious as to if there is a difference with digestion between
> fresh or frozen. Not one of my dogs will eat if food is too cold so i
> must warm it in a sink of hot water.The frozen smelt in summer being
> the exception and that is pushed about untill thawed. I had read that
> if we as humans drink cold with our meals it takes longer for
digestion
> to begin.It was based on studies why oriental peoples have less
stomach
> issues as they always start with hot drink or hot soup.
> Cathy
>

******First let me just say that you have been trained well by your
dogs! :) They may prefer it warm, but if you did not give in to their
demand of warming it I assure you they would eat it cold.

Second, I can not answer your question about digestion entirely, but
many of us have had to start dogs on frozen meals, in particular,
rescues who tend to gulp their food. Once they realize they are in
ahome where food comes regularly they are often able to be fed
paritally frozen, and then completely thawed food without the gulping.
I have never noticed a difference in feeding frozen vs. room temp
though except it takes longer to eat. Maybe digestion takes longer b/c
they eat slower when frozen?

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12340

There are 24 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: am I feeding enough?
From: Yasuko herron
1b. Re: am I feeding enough?
From: katkellm
1c. Re: am I feeding enough?
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: mozookpr
2b. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: mozookpr
2c. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: Laurie Swanson
2d. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Raw Book list
From: Sandee Lee
3b. Re: Raw Book list
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Raw Book list
From: katkellm
3d. Re: Raw Book list
From: Sarah Meyers

4a. Re: Feeded Fish
From: Yasuko herron
4b. Re: Feeded Fish
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: Feeded Fish
From: Yasuko herron
4d. Re: Feeded Fish
From: Morledzep@aol.com

5. Natalie update (and the others)
From: jenna

6a. Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird stomac
From: jordan_spiva
6b. Re: Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird st
From: Giselle

7a. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: delcaste
7b. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
7c. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: Giselle

8. frozen/fresh
From: Cathy Richmond

9a. Re: Heartworm tx and raw
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

10. I convinced a co-worker!!!
From: Michelle

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: am I feeding enough?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:38 pm ((PST))

>I'm still a bit concerned,It's been about 3 mos. on raw for my litte dogs. 16,11,5 lbs. My littlest one gets 3-4 oz the others get about 5 ozs. is that enough.

Hi,Kitty. 5lb,16lb,11lb dog,are they puppy? Arethey on ideal adult weight? What breed you have?

If 5lb dog were adult and be on the ideal weight,you arefeeding more than needed.

5lbx16x0.02=1.6oz 1.6oz isdaily intake if 5lb dog wereideal adult weight and be on 2% guideline

For 11lb, 11lbx16x0.02=3.52oz daily intake with 2% guideline assuming you have adult dog with ideal weight being 11lb

For 16lb, 16lbx16x0.02= 5.12oz daily intake 2 guideline,assuming 16lb adult dog being on ideal adult weight.

> well so I've switched to a frozen pattie that I got at the pet store (I
know that's not perfection) but it's not kibble either.

But better if you were feeding real meat than feeding pattie that you do not know what % of what are in the patties.

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: am I feeding enough?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:39 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ashley Myers <miragehairsalon@...>
wrote:

>> I'm still a bit concerned,It's been about 3 mos. on raw for my
litte dogs. 16,11,5 lbs. My littlest one gets 3-4 oz the others get
about 5 ozs. is that enough.

Hi Kitty,
The amount you are feeding figures out with the math i did, but i
don't think that anyone but you can determine if that is enough food.
Little dogs, lots of time, actually require a higher percentage of
their body weight-think 3% ish- than big dogs-more 2% ish-, but since
i can't see your dogs it would be impossible for me to answer your
question. How do they look to you? If you think they are thin, then
you need to feed more. Numbers are only starting guidelines, time and
the dog tell the real story.

>>I've not been feeling well so I can't clean up as well so I've
switched to a frozen pattie that I got at the pet store (I know that's
not perfection) but it's not kibble either. This is temporary until I
get better. I don' want to cause them problems. They seem happy but I
was just wondering.

I hope that you feel better soon. I have never feed frozen raw
patties, but i don't see how those patties are any "cleaner" than real
raw food. Raw is raw. If you are feeding the patties frozen and that
seems less messy to you, how about just feeding real raw frozen? How
about putting down one of those cheap vinyl tablecloths from the
dollar store and feed on it? Unless you chop veggies or grind stuff,
i don't think that real raw would be that much more work than frozen
raw. I am sorry if i am underestimating how you are feeling and seem
insensitive. I just wanted to help you think of a way to feed real
raw to your dogs so that they get the best and it doesn't hurt you.
Also, i'm not sure if the 2% of their ideal body weight formula
applies to frozen patties, and so that could be another factor in the
feeding/math/how much food question. Sorry to not be more helpful, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: am I feeding enough?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:21 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ashley Myers
<miragehairsalon@...> wrote:
>
> My littlest one gets 3-4 oz the others get about 5 ozs. is
> that enough.

You are feeding numbers. Forget that concept. Feed by your dog's
looks. Are they fat? Feed less. Are they thin? Feed more. Are
they just right? Continue what you are doing.

> but it's not kibble either.

Well ... its raw kibble.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:38 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...>
wrote:
>
> <I have an interesting twist on this problem. I just started raw
> Another thing, if you are feeding 10 ounces and hes possibly a bit
overweight and not eating well..why not just decrease the size of his
meals?
>
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
> http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html
>
>
Perhaps I was unclear in my post. His meals *total* about 5
oz....not 5 at each meal. Nor is he overweight, although do stay
vigilant about this, having seen far too many fat little dogs.

Because I also have cats I am switching to raw, it really is
important that I be able to monitor who is eating and who is not,
which prompted my desire to have him eat in the crate. He does, btw,
seem to be doing a little better tonight...maybe it is just a period
of adjustment. He is used to a constant source of junk food, and has
looked a bit woebegone a couple of times this week when he has
checked the kitchen for food and found only water bowls.

Now, if I could just get my mom to cut out the treats...

Sticking to it,

Wendy, Foxy, and Sophie, who loves raw (but has major
squirts...another post, I guess)

______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:38 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@> wrote:
>
> Hi Wendy,
> How about putting a vinyl tablecloth in the living room and letting
> him eat in there? The vinyl should keep the floor clean, and it
might
> be easier to teach him to keep it on the cloth than to get him to
eat
> elsewhere.
>
I tried a placemat in the living room, but the problem is, he does
not stay in one place with his goodies, and is likely to drag them
onto the couch. Also, I am converting my cats to raw, and it is hard
enough to monitor who is eating what without having my little
bottomless pit kittens stealing Foxy's dinner (and getting bitten in
the process)!

Have been feeding raw for only a week, but he is already getting
little bits of pork with his chicken. He seems to like it. I keep
hearing that beef is the last thing to add to the list because it can
cause cannon butt, so I want to hold off on that, but he *does* like
it, as I learned when I got the dogs a pound of stew meat for his
birthday last month.

I think the most obvious suggestion is probably best: feed once a
day. He has never had issues with hypoglycemia, it is just an issue
I have heard of with some toys, mostly tiny puppies. Overprotective
dog mom, here, I guess.

My mind knows he will not starve himself. Getting the gut to follow
is another matter. Sigh.

Wendy...tired...

Messages in this topic (13)
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2c. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:56 pm ((PST))

Hi Wendy,

If you can just hang in there and supervise him eating on the mat
(might need it to be bigger than a typical placemat--or use a bath mat
you can wash--he might like that texture better...or anything else you
can think of) and teach him to keep it there, it won't take long! Just
every time he takes his food off the mat, put it back on and tell him
he needs to keep it on the mat. He'll figure it out pretty quickly!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:

> I tried a placemat in the living room, but the problem is, he does
> not stay in one place with his goodies, and is likely to drag them
> onto the couch.

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:50 am ((PST))

Hi, Wendy!
You can place the mat or towel, or blanket in a LARGE
cardboard box, with tall sides. Put the food and Foxy in the box, and this
should keep him from dragging it around. It will also keep the kitties from
harassing him.
As he gets used to eating in the box, you can gradually cut down the sides a
little bit at a time, one at a time, until he is eating just on the mat. The
mat becomes THE comfortable place to eat, not the kitchen, or the living
room, etc., but by then you can put his mat down anywhere, and he will know
what he is to do. You can also use a word or short phrase like "Dinner!" or
""Time to eat!" or "Go to your place!" to get him to associate it with meal
times.

You could also give the kitties the same thing Foxy is getting, somewhere
away from where he is eating, to distract them.

Once he knows what is expected of him, and is comfortable knowing that he
can trust you to keep him safe and comfortable from the cats depredations,
he will relax and enjoy his raw food.

Can you switch Mom over to feeding him some better quality and tinier
treats? If you keep diced heart, gizzards and even bits of meat about the
size of a baby pea in the fridge for Mom to give to Foxy, and redirect her
to them as "very special Foxy treats" it will make Foxie's transition to all
raw easier, and ensure Mom's happiness, and compliance. Include the treats
as part of his daily portion. You can parcel them out into those little
disposable/reusable plastic snack containers. She may even start to give the
kitties those treats, too! ^_^

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 2, 2007 10:52 PM, Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com> wrote:

> Hi Wendy,
>
> If you can just hang in there and supervise him eating on the mat
> (might need it to be bigger than a typical place mat--or use a bath mat
> you can wash--he might like that texture better...or anything else you
> can think of) and teach him to keep it there, it won't take long! Just
> every time he takes his food off the mat, put it back on and tell him
> he needs to keep it on the mat. He'll figure it out pretty quickly!
>
> Laurie
>
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (13)
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3a. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:04 pm ((PST))

Sarah,

Other than the Mech books documenting what wolves eat, I don't know of any.
Feeding prey model can be described in one paragraph...not a great book
seller!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sarah Meyers" <s2meyers@yahoo.com>
> I am new to all this and while I have spent some time looking around at
websites and in the archives in this list, are there any good books out
there on raw feeding? I have looked at some books but many of these seem to
also encourage the use of grains and/or fruits and veggies. Maybe some of
these have useful info, but I would love to hear your opinions on a booklist
for rawfeeders. Are there any prey model diet books out there?

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:23 pm ((PST))

Sarah Meyers <s2meyers@...> wrote:
are there any good books out there on raw feeding?
*****
No, not so you'd notice.

I have looked at some books but many of these seem to also encourage
the use of grains and/or fruits and veggies.
*****
You got that right!

Are there any prey model diet books out there?
*****
Nope.
The closest is Tom Lonsdale's "Work Wonders" which used to be a free
download but now is not. He does not feed "prey model" and is not I
don't think keen on the term. But at least he feeds meaty bones and
skips the veggies except for tablescraps.

I recommend reading some of L. David Mech's wolf books for a good
REAL look at what wolves eat. And how. This is a good one:
The Wolf: The Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species / by L.
David Mech By American Museum of Natural History

and this which is more recent:
Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation by L. David Mech, Luigi
Boitani

Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:36 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Meyers <s2meyers@...> wrote:
Are there any prey model diet books out there?

Hi Sarah,
Work Wonders and Raw Meaty Bones by Dr. Tom Lonsdale are the only 2
books that i could recommend. If you compiled all the writing of our
veteran pros, Chris O, Casey, Carrie, Sandy (and Griffin) and many
more, you would have the best raw feeding book ever published. I would
search for their names in the archive, make a cup of coffee, and read
away. KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "Sarah Meyers" s2meyers@yahoo.com s2meyers
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:36 pm ((PST))

Hmmm well that's what I was thinking. Thanks for those tips though, I will look into those books. I'm always looking for an excuse to buy more books and get away from the computer :) It would be a great idea for someone to put all this good material into a book, I would definately get one!
Thanks Again
Sarah Meyers

____________________________________________________________________________________
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http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

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4a. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:36 pm ((PST))

> Fish is far more species appropriate than poultry!

Sandee,it is because the bird is high in Omega 6?

I am wondering how many times per week other people including you feeding fish.

I feed fish 2 days per week.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (12)
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4b. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:22 pm ((PST))

I think if you read through that entire thread, Chris answered this quite
nicely......
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135493

I feed it when I have it which isn't often. It's a nice additional protein
source when available.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Yasuko herron" <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com>

> > Fish is far more species appropriate than poultry!
>
> Sandee,it is because the bird is high in Omega 6?
>
> I am wondering how many times per week other people including you
feeding fish.

Messages in this topic (12)
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4c. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:21 pm ((PST))

> It's a nice additional protein source when available.

I agree! I do not rely on fish for omega 3 and I supplement with Fish oil cap. But I get wahtever looks good on fish counter and I mainly get as part of protin variety than omega 3 source because I know that giving omega 3 just with fish is real hard to achieve.

I read chris's post before posting my question but did not realize it is answering my question. Sorry.

I guess that means I better go to bed as palette is snoring under my PC desk as I write this.

I better wake her up for last time potty,lol.

Good night,and thank you for your reply.

yassy

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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4d. Re: Feeded Fish
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:15 am ((PST))

In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

I am wondering how many times per week other people including you feeding
fish.

Yassy,

i feed fish maybe once a month.. if that. I don't buy it often and i usually
only feed it as part of a meal, not as the entire meal.

most of the raw fish i buy is not meant for wolf chow but for fish food. So
the dogs really don't get much fish, but we got a deal on whole salmon a few
months ago and i stocked up. So about once a month i grab a couple salmon out
of the freezer and divide it up with whatever else the dogs are eating
(usually organs or green tripe).

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (12)
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5. Natalie update (and the others)
Posted by: "jenna" jennawing@charter.net jennawing
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:21 pm ((PST))

I wrote asking advice on getting our ridgeback x Natalie to eat raw
food. There have been some improvements, and maybe some ideas to
help others with the same issue, so I thought I would write to say
thanks for the advice and to give an update on how she is taking to
raw feeding.

We tried all the things about taking her bowl up after a certain
legnth of time, putting her off in a separate room, etc etc and
after about two weeks she still was not eating. So- we are now
chopping her food- bone and all- chopping it roughly with a meat
cleaver and filling her bowl. It is still large enough pieces that
she must chew it, but no longer resembles dead animal parts but real
food, so this seems to work for everyone. Natalie eats
enthusiastically now- not a single day since we started chopping the
food has she not eaten and even asked for more- which is way better
than she ever did on kibble. She LOVES calves liver- the other dogs
wouldn't touch it.

So, for the others- a MARKED improvement on everyone's teeth
*cheers* Pagan's teeth look better now after 3 weeks of raw feeding
than they would after having them scaled AND without her being
frightened to death and the nicks on her gums, too- so AMAZING!

Sirius, GSD x going on 9, who has been on multiple extended rounds
of antibiotics for skin issues- is now NOT on meds for the first
time in months. He has gained weight and very active.

Hogan, rat terrier, 2 1/2- unneutered male who has trouble keeping
weight on- is looking very nice and proportionate. I am excited that
he will be filled out very nicely by Feb for the perry, ga show.
Keep your fingers crossed as he only need 16pts to champion! Go,
Hogan!

Pagan, 2yo rat terrier- our smallest at 12 pounds- is in love with
the new food- eats on 3 legs- she really gets into the crunching!

I have not started the cats on raw as yet. I hate the delay, but I
am thinking economically here and they are still working on a bag of
kibble. (hate to be wasteful) So, they should be all switched over
in a week or so, though the two male cats and old Booger have been
enjoying some tidbits along with the dogs. ALso, my son is away for
holidays and it is his job to feed the cats, so it will coincide
nicely with his return and we can learn the new routine together.
Thanks again for those links for cats + raw diet!

Just wanted to share my excitement. Still can't get over how much
better everyone's teeth are- that must be the first most obvious
improvement. Looking forward to even more and enjoying learning by
reading all the posts!

Thanks again,
jenna (AL)

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird stomac
Posted by: "jordan_spiva" jordan_spiva@yahoo.com jordan_spiva
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:21 pm ((PST))

+++Mod note: please sign messages, or they tend to disappear! +++

Is there a nutritional diference in stomaches from mammals and stomaches from birds? My
cat had kittens and we need to know which would be better for both them and their mom. Or
are they the same.

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird st
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:08 am ((PST))

Hi, Jordan!
What are you feeding now? Are they eating raw?

The difference is that cats and dogs do better on species appropriate
variety! All prey animals are perfect for food in their own way. Feed either
a variety of whole small prey or a variety of animal parts with
approximately 80% meat, 10% organ and 10% edible bone.

small whole prey;

http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp

http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23

http://snrabbits.com/
red meat cuts;

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/meatcharts.html

http://www.best-venison.com/processing.html
Wiki has this to say about cats;

*African Wildcat*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felis_silvestris_lybica

About 10,000 years ago, some Felis silvestris lybica individuals were
domesticated in the Middle East. Modern domestic cats are derived from at
least five "Mitochondrial Eves". None of the other subspecies of Felis
silvestris contributed to the domestic breed, and many of those subspecies
own mtDNA is being swamped by interbreeding with feral cats.

The African Wildcat eats primarily mice, rats and other small mammals. If
the situation permits, it also eats birds, reptiles, amphibians and insects.

*Cat*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat

A skilled predator, the cat is known to hunt over 1,000 species for food.

Cats can be fussy eaters, possibly due to the mutation which caused their
ancestor to lose the ability to taste sugars. Unlike most mammals, cats can
voluntarily starve themselves indefinitely despite being presented with
palatable food, even a food which they had previously readily consumed. This
can happen when the vomeronasal or Jacobson's organ becomes accustomed to a
specific food, or if the cats are spoiled by their owners, in which case the
cat will reject any food that does not fit the pattern it is expecting. It
is also known for cats to merely become bored with their given food and
decide to stop eating until they are tempted into eating again. Although it
is extremely rare for a cat to deliberately starve itself to the point of
injury, the sudden loss of weight can cause a fatal condition called hepatic
lipidosis, a liver dysfunction which causes pathological loss of appetite
and reinforces the starvation, which can lead to death within as little as
48 hours.

*http://www.blakkatz.com/dryfood.html*

The domestic cat's stomach, which is quite small, has two purposes. It holds
the food and it is not necessary to hold a lot of food because the natural
food of the cat is nutrient dense. Small wild cats hunt more frequently than
their larger cousins because their prey is smaller.

You might want to check out this sister forum to the raw feeding list, and
the raw fed cats website;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

rawfedcats.org

<http://www.best-venison.com/processing.html>
TC and tell us more about your cats!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 2, 2007 11:35 PM, jordan_spiva <jordan_spiva@yahoo.com> wrote:

> +++Mod note: please sign messages, or they tend to disappear! +++
>
> Is there a nutritional difference in stomaches from mammals and stomaches
> from birds? My
> cat had kittens and we need to know which would be better for both them
> and their mom. Or
> are they the same.
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:23 pm ((PST))

> You all recommend feeding big chuncks of beef ribs - I have no idea
> what they look like. All I get is cut up small things at the store.
> Can someone send a picture please?
> And what are tom necks?
> Vickie

Hi Vickie when short ribs have been on sale at my grocery, I've asked
the butcher if he'll leave them all together instead of cutting them
and sell them to me at the sale price. It's worked.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (11)
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7b. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:15 am ((PST))

Imagine the rack of ribs as if it were still on the animal, see the whole row of ribs, and that's what it looks like. A rack, of like 8 - 10 ribs all together, with the meat holding them up, and no skin attached. Boy that's hard to describe if you think about it. If I were a vegan, I'd never be able to describe those:)
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (11)
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7c. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:44 am ((PST))

Hi, Vickie!
Seems like your pup has reached the age where necks aren't
going to be safe for him to eat, or he's just going through a 'stupid eating
phase!

You could cut the necks into smaller bits and add some meat for a meal. Or,
do what I do when I do buy turkey necks. I mold a lump of
too-cheap-too-pass-up ground beef around the smaller end, and feed it
frozen. You could also wrap a hunk of beef heart around a neck and serve
frozen, too. My girl is a Newfy, and 130 lbs, but is a careful chewer, so
these ideas are safe for her.

Chewing on a slab of 3-4 beef ribs is chewing activity and flossing fun, but
not a meal, imo. Pretty fatty, and needs meat added, or it can be fed as a
snack meal the day after a Big meal;
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/meatcharts_photos/beef_cut_chart.pdf
Let him chew all he wants on the bones and get the goodies off, then chuck
them out when they're bare.

Tom turkey necks, like tom turkeys, are much larger than hen turkeys or
their necks. If you have hen turkey necks now, tom necks may be more
appropriate to feed your boy. Where I get my turkey necks from, they each
come in a 30 lb case, but you get fewer tom necks per case, as they are
larger.

You need to check out The Lis' List! a great compilation of ways to source
meats for free or cheaply;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*
BTW, when someone else is feeding my dog, I leave out Duh! instructions and
meals that are both easy and safe to eat.

TC let us know how you and your boy do.
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 2, 2007 4:46 PM, vickies_28 <vickies_28@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello All
> thanks for all your feedback here.
> My pup is a 52 lbs basset hound. And the necks I feed a not small for
> what I can say. They are about 1.5-2" wide and about 9" long. Is it
> too small?
> And I don't feed exclusively necks. I feed a variety of beef, pork,
> cut up whole chickens and organs and fish too. So for the variety
> standpoint he is fine.
>

> <snip>
> You all recommend feeding big chunks of beef ribs - I have no idea
> what they look like. All I get is cut up small things at the store.
> Can someone send a picture please?
> And what are tom necks?
> Vickie
>
>

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8. frozen/fresh
Posted by: "Cathy Richmond" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 5:23 am ((PST))

I am curious as to if there is a difference with digestion between
fresh or frozen. Not one of my dogs will eat if food is too cold so i
must warm it in a sink of hot water.The frozen smelt in summer being
the exception and that is pushed about untill thawed. I had read that
if we as humans drink cold with our meals it takes longer for digestion
to begin.It was based on studies why oriental peoples have less stomach
issues as they always start with hot drink or hot soup.
Cathy

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9a. Re: Heartworm tx and raw
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 5:23 am ((PST))

Will do, Ginny. I only posted this part to address the concerns about raw
diet and the positive results in our case.

Carol

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10. I convinced a co-worker!!!
Posted by: "Michelle" brunoheart@yahoo.com brunoheart
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 5:23 am ((PST))

I have been feeding my Bruno boy Raw since Oct of last year and my
Chevy girl since we adopted her last January. I have spoken about it
to my co-workers, but haven't really pushed the issue. Well, last
week, one of our cashiers came to me and started asking more questions
and then asked me to go shopping with her Fri. Although, I was unable
to go with her, I pointed her in the right direction and she fed her
first Raw meal to her Beagle and her Chi/mix Friday evening. She
called me for advice when the Chi wouldn't eat, so I gave her some tips
and she called me back less then ten minutes later to say that both
pups finished their meals and were looking for more! I am sooo excited
to know that I helped two more dogs get more appropriate diets.
Couldn't have done it without this group, so thought I'd share. Thanks
for being there.
Michelle Pape

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