Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 25, 2007

Thursday, October 25, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12205

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Chicken Sale
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: Hamburger???
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3a. Re: Smelts
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3b. Re: Smelts
From: Giselle
3c. Re: Smelts
From: ginny wilken

4a. Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
From: Anntiga@aol.com
4b. Re: Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
From: Howard Salob
4c. Re: Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
From: costrowski75

5a. Constant diarrhoea
From: URSULA
5b. Re: Constant diarrhoea
From: Casey Post
5c. Re: Constant diarrhoea
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
From: persephoneinfall

7a. is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
From: kaebruney
7b. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
From: Michelle LaFay
7c. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
From: Casey Post

8a. swallows whole
From: Mary Tinder
8b. Re: swallows whole
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: swallows whole
From: Giselle

9a. Re: New with Questions
From: D. Rajska
9b. Re: New with Questions
From: Laura Atkinson
9c. Re: New with Questions
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Hi everyone!
From: D. Rajska

11a. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
From: D. Rajska

12a. Re: hot dogs/sausage (was Hamburger???)
From: D. Rajska

13a. Re: Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you
From: ginny wilken

Messages
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1a. Re: Chicken Sale
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/25/2007 4:38:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
redkeds@comcast.net writes:

BTW - this is for the greater Seattle area stores.

***i checked the ads for Southern CA, the Albertson's chickens are on sale
here for $.77 lb.

that's very nearly the best price we've seen all year..

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Hamburger???
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:51 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/25/2007 11:16:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
doglover72@gmail.com writes:

So, it's ok to give them sausage and hotdogs then too? How about Blood
pudding? This lady is offering me all these things.

Natalie,

Sausage and hot dogs are seasoned and cooked.. probably not great for wolf
chow. But they can be used for treats cut into tiny bits.

usually with freecycle it's best not to piss off the folks offering the
goodies. Take all of it.. and toss what you won't use.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: Smelts
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/25/2007 10:05:31 AM Pacific Standard Time,
snazgal@aol.com writes:

Probably not really worthy of worrying about...was a snack/treat not a
meal...
Info on Smelts please??

Phyllis,

my dogs aren't big fans of smelts either.. i buy them to feed to the fish..

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Smelts
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Phyllis!
I'm lucky, I guess. Bea pretty much will eat anything I give
her. she's not fussy. It may take her awhile to figure something new out,
but I've learned that just because she's not eating something, and it seems
she doesn't like it at first, it doesn't mean that she will never eat it
readily.

No one animal (or fish!) or animal part is important to feed, except liver.
And even with liver, you have choices of which animal to source it from,
and how to feed it. I feel tho', that since I've already gone to all the
trouble to hunt, and drag the prey home, the least I can do is give the dog
plenty of opportunity to eat the thing. ^_^

Variety is important, so I give anything new I've been able to buy several
chances, sometimes several days in a row, sometimes (if its frozen) every
other day or so until its eaten. She pretty much knows by now that if I put
it on her towel, it really, really is food.

The best way I've found to entice Bea to crunch into something she's not
sure of, is to add tripe. I keep frozen ground tripe in the freezer. You
could chop the smelts into big chunks and mix some tripe into them. That
works. You could also just roll the smelts whole around in some tripe, to
get the smell on it. That works, too. If I'm feeding something new to her,
now all I usually do is toss a small chunk of tripe next to it on her eating
towel, and she eats both up! Gotta love classical conditioning.

I'd also consider whether each of your dogs or cats usually prefers their
food frozen, semi frozen, thawed or warmed, and serve it the preferred way
for each for now.

I hadn't fed Bea today, and had 2 lbs of smelts frozen in a bag in the
freezer. She's had mackerel, and whiting, but not smelt. I pulled it out of
the fridge, dropped the frozen block onto her feeding towel, and she took
less time to eat it than its taken me to type this email. ; ) Oh, and she's
back on her love seat, snoring. Gotta love her! ^_^

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/25/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> "raffiangel2" <snazgal@...> wrote:
> > Anyone have any experiences with Smelts?? ideas?
> *****
> My dogs won't eat it and my cat won't eat it. I don't buy it. If it
> doesn't work and you don't care, don't pursue it. If it doesn't work
> and you really want it to, keep trying.
>
> Try it frozen, try a different source, try it dressed. Give it a few
> months' break and try it. Unless you are starved for protein variety,
> it's not worth it, IMO.
> Chris O
>
>

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Smelts
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:24 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 25, 2007, at 2:59 PM, Morledzep@aol.com wrote:

> Phyllis,
>
> my dogs aren't big fans of smelts either.. i buy them to feed to
> the fish..
>
> Catherine R.
>

Tomo eats smelts, one or two at a time, frozen. The chickens won't
eat them, and my fish are not that big - but heck, I could try it.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

This is a great site that has a list with links to several articles about
how awful pet food is.

_http://www.canineadvantage.com/Rendering%20Plant%20Article%20Websites.pdf_

(http://www.canineadvantage.com/Rendering%20Plant%20Article%20Websites.pdf)

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

"Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose."

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

Dear Anntiga,

Wow! Great stuff. This is amazing. I will definitely have info to use when people question why raw is best and kibble is not.
Thank you for sending this.

SIncerely,

Howard

Anntiga@aol.com wrote:
This is a great site that has a list with links to several articles about
how awful pet food is.

_http://www.canineadvantage.com/Rendering%20Plant%20Article%20Websites.pdf_

(http://www.canineadvantage.com/Rendering%20Plant%20Article%20Websites.pdf)

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

"Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose."

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Great links to How Awful Pet Food Is
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:14 pm ((PDT))

Anntiga@... wrote:
>
> This is a great site that has a list with links to several articles
about
> how awful pet food is.
*****
Ann!
You're back!
Where ya bin?
Good to see ya.

Everything okay? How is Master Norman?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Constant diarrhoea
Posted by: "URSULA" UCL@NEUF.FR ursula21c
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT))

Hello sorry if I spelt it wrong - my five year old lab has constant
liquid diarrhoea for three days now and she empties her bowels during
the night always in the same place, fortunately on tiled flooring. She
had a long walk today and the output was the same liquid stools. My
husband says to stop the raw feeding immediately and give her rice and
cooked chicken or fish or we have to visit the vet who hates the idea
of raw feeding and will put her on prescription diet for irritable bowel.
Her brother is fine and robust in health. Our girl was poisoned in
Spring of this year from farm fertilisers we think and this challenged
her liver. She has always been good with raw food and we have fed
both our dogs raw since 9 weeks old.
I am extremely worried about her and hate the idea of changing her
diet but something is not right and I haven't a clue what to do about it.
I would really appreciate some advice.
Many thanks
Ursula
Salies de Bearn
S.W. France

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Constant diarrhoea
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

> Our girl was poisoned in
> Spring of this year from farm fertilisers we think and this challenged
> her liver. She has always been good with raw food and we have fed
> both our dogs raw since 9 weeks old.
> I am extremely worried about her and hate the idea of changing her
> diet but something is not right and I haven't a clue what to do about it.
***********

Ursula,

Time for another trip to the vet. You say that she suffered liver damage
from the poisoning...so what you're seeing may be linked to that. It
certainly needs to be checked out.

That said, this sounds to me like a medical issue, not a diet issue. If
it'll make your household more at ease, go ahead and feed the chicken and
rice or whatever your husband wants until you can get her to a vet. But do
get her to one soon...

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Constant diarrhoea
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Ursula!
I agree a vet visit is in order to check her liver function.
I don't think it is the raw food causing this problem, especially if you
haven't changed what you are feeding.

Go back to simple. Feed chicken. Trim visible fat. Cut off skin. Or feed
rabbit. Or whatever meat she has done best on, that you can feed lean.
Heart, maybe. Find out if she does better with more, or less, bone. Feed
liver, but don't feed it by itself, feed small bits with meals. Try feeding
smaller portions, more frequently.

Once you have a report from the vet on her health status, then you can start
to explore the limits of her digestive abilities.

Don't feed cooked. Don't feed grains. This can't improve her condition, or
her health.

You might want to fast her for a meal, or for a day.
Try Slippery Elm Bark Powder to soothe her digestive system.

SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This good, innocuous herb soothes the
stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to intervene when your
dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the way to go. SEBP is "used to
treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis, colitis & irritations of the
stomach. Used to soothe, protect & lubricate mucous membranes. Also, it used
to relieve the discomforts of kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix them
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze some.
They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in ½-ounce meatballs, for large to
giant dogs, 1-ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal, and in between meals.
Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer plenty
of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day. You can also mix
SEBP with water or no salt added chicken or beef broth, or sprinkle it on
meat, if the dog will eat it this way. Feed smaller, more frequent meals
with small amounts or no bone for several days after, gradually increasing
the meal size and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often see an
increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it soothes the
digestive system, and the dog's body will sometimes produce mucous on its
own to deal with digestive irritation even without SEBP. SEBP will not
provide bulk, or 'fiber' to firm up poops, this will happen naturally, as
the dog's digestive system and meals return to normal.

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/25/07, Casey Post <mikken@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Our girl was poisoned in
> > Spring of this year from farm fertilizers we think and this challenged
> > her liver. She has always been good with raw food and we have fed
> > both our dogs raw since 9 weeks old.
> > I am extremely worried about her and hate the idea of changing her
> > diet but something is not right and I haven't a clue what to do about
> it.
> ***********
>
> Ursula,
>
> Time for another trip to the vet. You say that she suffered liver damage
> from the poisoning...so what you're seeing may be linked to that. It
> certainly needs to be checked out.
>
> That said, this sounds to me like a medical issue, not a diet issue. If
> it'll make your household more at ease, go ahead and feed the chicken and
> rice or whatever your husband wants until you can get her to a vet. But do
>
> get her to one soon...
>
> Casey
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
Posted by: "persephoneinfall" persephoneinfall@gmail.com persephoneinfall
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT))

Andrea,
thanks for your tips!

> Cut the meat into tiny tiny
> pieces and mix them in with a can of their regular food and let it
> marinate overnight. The cats would eat the food if it smelled like
> their regular food and was cut into tiny bits.

I like the idea of letting the meat marinate. I have cut the meat up
into tiny pieces and hid it in the canned food, but she always knows!

> I'll also say that trying different kinds of meats is really
> important with cats.
i'm trying that too, but it's hard with my budget right now.

> Have you checked out the rawcat list?
yes! i am on that list too and posted this there as well. this list
seems a bit more active though, hence the double post.

again, thanks for your help. don't think i've ever seen pork cheek
anywhere, but i'll try to find it.
annette.

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding my dog raw for nearly two years now and having
brought in two rescues and also feeding them raw, I am a tried and
true believer in the benefits of it.

My mother is the owner of two cats one 9 another 6, and I was
wondering if it is possible to switch over an older feline to raw as well?

Knowing how sketchy cats can be if you move their litter box (one of
hers will pee allover the house in protest at first), would it be wise
to change their food this late in the game?

one of the cats had crystals and has since grown through it. The other
cat is obese because he munches kibble all day and whines if he can't
get to it.

i would love to convert them to see if it helps, but I need some sound
advice to back up my argument to my mother.

so:

1- can it be done?
2- are there any risks at this age?
3- do cats suffer from starving themselves worse than dogs? (I'm sure
they won't go for it the first day or two)
40 what's the best meats to introduce? i've never raw fed a cat. do
they eat the same meats as dogs?

Fire away gang! I'm all ears.. um, eyes. *lol*

Thanks!

Kae

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
Posted by: "Michelle LaFay" mblafay@gmail.com mblafay
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

My and my mom's cat that lives with her just started eating some raw this
year at age 13. Mom finally gave in and started feeding her 12yr old chi raw
so figured she would offer the cat some too. She just supplements but even
that has made a HUGE difference in him. She still leaves k*bble down for him
all the time but gives him meat too. Mostly chicken liver because he LOVES
it but sometimes he steals the dog's chicken away from him too. Personally I
think he would go all the way raw with no issues but my mom is, well,
stubborn. He has her well trained to give her a piece of liver every time
she goes into the kitchen and drives her up the wall if his k*bble bowl gets
empty. He looks great, has lost some weight, toned up quite a bit, lost that
"boy cat belly flap" and his coat is MUCH better. He is also more energetic
and much more social.

You might want to check out the rawcat list for more info on how to switch
cats, they are more delicate than dogs and will get sick if they don't eat.

On 10/25/07, kaebruney <kaebruney@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> 1- can it be done?
> 2- are there any risks at this age?
> 3- do cats suffer from starving themselves worse than dogs? (I'm sure they
> won't go for it the first day or two)
> 40 what's the best meats to introduce? i've never raw fed a cat. do they
> eat the same meats as dogs?
> Thanks!
>
> Kae
>
>

--
Michelle - The Future Mrs Foley!
mblafay@gmail.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: is a pet ever too old to start feeding raw?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:02 pm ((PDT))

> 1- can it be done?

My old girl started the switch at 14 (took a while to get her all the way
there). On rawcat, we have a cat who switched (easily!) at 19 years old, so
yes, it CAN be done!

> 2- are there any risks at this age?

Risks...not so much risks as special consideration. Older cats may have bad
teeth that need to be addressed before you expect much from them. They also
take more time to build up their jaw strength. Older cats may also be more
prone to constipation, so it's a good idea to keep bone on the low end of
the spectrum, at least in the early days - 10% edible bone is plenty fine.

> 3- do cats suffer from starving themselves worse than dogs? (I'm sure
> they won't go for it the first day or two)

YES. Google "cats hepatic lipidosis" and you'll see why fasting a cat into
a diet change is NOT recommended here.

> 40 what's the best meats to introduce? i've never raw fed a cat. do
> they eat the same meats as dogs?

Yes, they do. But cats tend to do very well with a lot of variety right up
front, so don't be shy about trying anything and everything with them. From
pork to beef, from quail to emu, from mouse to moose - all good! Of course
cats cannot handle the larger bones, but the little critters (game hen,
mice, quail, etc.) provide enough edible bone and you can count the rest as
boneless meals.

Start here -

www.rawfedcats.org and you'll find the link there to our sister list,
rawcat. We'll be happy to help you out!

Casey

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8a. swallows whole
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

OK, my Dane, who was initially dubious about the raw diet is now
swallowing whole chicken halves, most often without more than one or
two initial crunches. He seemes to digest it ok!

Worst problem is that it makes it not very satisfactory for "mother" as
dinner time is rather short. He acts insatiable!

Bigger pieces? Give him the whole chicken? Freeze b4 hand? Should I
worry?

Mary Tinder

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: swallows whole
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

"Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:>
> OK, my Dane, who was initially dubious about the raw diet is now
> swallowing whole chicken halves, most often without more than one or
> two initial crunches. He seemes to digest it ok!
*****
Yes, because he is eating normally.

> Worst problem is that it makes it not very satisfactory
for "mother" as
> dinner time is rather short.
*****
It is also not very satisfying to the dog. If it were, he would not
be acting like a starving fool.

> Bigger pieces?
*****
Yes.

Give him the whole chicken?
*****
Yes, absolutely.

Freeze b4 hand?
*****
If you want. Not necessary if what you feed is truly "big enough".
Might help make food that is not "big enough" more challenging though.

Should I
> worry?
*****
No. Just feed Big.

This is where Big Food/little food works so well. Yes, give him a big
honking chicken. Or a big honking pork shoulder roast. Or a pork
haunch. Or half a turkey. And then feed nothing (or a small
something) the next day. Mix this BIG/little arrangement in with what
you would otherwise feed; keep it interesting, make him work for his
food at least once in a while.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: swallows whole
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi Mary!
You got it!
But, don't worry! Feeding raw is a lifetime of tweaks and adjustments,
learning, adapting, changing with each dog and their different sizes, ages
and needs.
Going to bigger parts is the answer. How long have you been feeding raw? You
may want to feed once a day, if you are feeding twice or more.
You could give him whole chickens, butterflied open to make them more
complicated to eat.
You could serve them partly or entirely frozen.
You could move on to turkey - halves or whole.
You could introduce pork shoulders or fresh hams, skin on.
You could try to obtain 6 way cut goat or lamb.
Skin and fur or feathers on whole prey can add bulk and complication to
meals, too.

Feeding bigger parts would mean you would either have to take the part up
when he had eaten a day's worth of food, or allow him to eat until he
stopped, and then skip a day or two before feeding Big Food again.

Big Food feeds teach a lot of dogs to be more relaxed about eating. When
they are full, they aren't interested in food. You can then feed treat sized
snacks for a few days, until its time for another Big Feed.

Often, once dogs are more relaxed about feeding, you can feed a couple Big
Feeds a month and feed daily sized or snack sized meals the rest of the
time.

You can't start out feeding this way, but you certainly can take baby steps
leading in this direction.
HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/25/07, Mary Tinder <mtinder@tinderco.com> wrote:
>
> OK, my Dane, who was initially dubious about the raw diet is now
> swallowing whole chicken halves, most often without more than one or
> two initial crunches. He seems to digest it ok!
>
> Worst problem is that it makes it not very satisfactory for "mother" as
> dinner time is rather short. He acts insatiable!
>
> Bigger pieces? Give him the whole chicken? Freeze b4 hand? Should I
> worry?
>
> Mary Tinder
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: New with Questions
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:02 pm ((PDT))

On 10/25/07, lolathomson <lolathomson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> -agreed most of our dogs do not get the same physical exercise as
> wolves in the wild, even those which have an active lifestyle, but
> surely feeding something which is closer to the natural diet is better
> than feeding something less close to the natural diet?
>

I don't excercise the way cave people did when they had to hike the woods to
pick their berries and wild vegetables and chase their prey whilst wielding
a big stick... That doesn't mean that chocolate is a more ideal diet for me
than fruit, whole grains and lean meat was for a cave person... Just means
my intake should be commensurate with my activity level...?

> -surely the chemical content due to environmental contamination is
> going to affect not only meat and bones, but vegetables, fruit, grains
> and anything else in our current environment?
>
>

Again... to me that's like saying, gee, I'd love to eat a salad, but I'm
afraid there's so much pesticide in vegetables I'll just be better off
eating a Twinkie... I'm new here, all I do is ask a lot of questions, but
that argument just makes no sense. I wish it did - I'm visiting a friend
right now and it would be great if I could justify the dessert I just
inhaled.... ;)

Dee

>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (12)
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9b. Re: New with Questions
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

And what's wrong with my Twinkie logic that you've stolen? <grin>
Preservatives keep us young...that's why they call them preservatives!
Besides, there's never been an e-coli incident with Twinkies. (all further
discussion should be taken to iluvhostess or rawtwinkietalk)

On 10/25/07, D. Rajska <d.rajska@gmail.com> wrote:

Dee

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: New with Questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

"D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
> I don't excercise the way cave people did when they had to hike the
woods to
> pick their berries and wild vegetables
*****
Tee hee.
No wild vegetables for the Cave Family; no fruits and whole grains
either; but good point nevertheless.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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10a. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to say thank you for all your responses and support... I'm
definitely getting a lot more perspective, and yes I have every intention of
pulling myself together before he comes home...

Dee

On 10/25/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> "Three weeks is a lotta time to get yourself together.
> Hyperventilating is neither attractive nor productive unless you are
> a Hollywood starlet with more bosom than brains. It certainly
> doesn't help feed a good raw diet. Breathe in, breathe out, relax.
> <rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=>
> .
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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11a. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your feedback!

Dee

>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: hot dogs/sausage (was Hamburger???)
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

On 10/25/07, Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com> wrote:
>
> I don't know what blood pudding
> is.
> .
> ,___
>

Hi,

I believe that blood pudding has some kind of grain in it - barley perhaos?
Don't give that to your dog. Stick with cuts of raw meat....

Dee

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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13a. Re: Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 25, 2007, at 12:05 PM, Yasuko herron wrote:
> so,your suggestion is, pour tiny bit over several feeding til she
> gets better torelates?
>
> She loooves Egg,so,she needs nothing to eat with to eat Egg.She
> loves Egg.only torelance prob.
>
> If cooking it does not help building torelance,then,try little by
> little over several feeding then?

Tolerance is always best built gradually. And cooking shouldn't be
part of it the diet anyway. I would not, I repeat, cook eggs for a
dog. But I might give egg mixed with other food. On the other hand,
I'd probably just give 'em egg and the Devil take the hindmost. I
don't pay much attention to poop any more; I'd rather just get good
stuff in them.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12204

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Hamburger???
From: nkayl
1b. Re: Hamburger???
From: Andrea
1c. Re: Hamburger???
From: nkayl
1d. Re: Hamburger???
From: cmhausrath
1e. Re: hot dogs/sausage (was Hamburger???)
From: Laurie Swanson
1f. Re: Hamburger???
From: costrowski75
1g. Re: Hamburger???
From: mousegirls
1h. Re: Hamburger???
From: mousegirls
1i. Re: Hamburger???
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2.1. Turkey necks
From: Patty Linden
2.2. Re: Turkey necks
From: Andrea

3a. Elk organs
From: Liz
3b. Re: Elk organs
From: Yasuko herron
3c. Re: Elk organs
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: Elk organs
From: moemahood@aol.com

4.1. Re: Now what?
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you
From: Yasuko herron
5b. Re: Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you
From: Laurie Swanson

6a. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
From: Andrea

7. Need advise on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: Kathy Tompson

8a. Re: Skin or not?
From: ri_bulldogs
8b. Re: Skin or not?
From: katkellm
8c. Re: Skin or not?
From: nkayl
8d. Re: Skin or not?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: Giselle

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Hamburger???
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

Someone on freecycle is offering me hamburger. I'm thinking it's not
something I want, but I wanted to check here first to make sure. Is
hamburger ok to give the dogs?

Natalie

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Hamburger???
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

Heck yeah if it is for free! I don't spend doggy dollars on hamburger,
but I wouldn't turn it down. You can stuff kongs with it, stuff the
cavity of poultry with it and freeze it, etc.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote:
>
> Someone on freecycle is offering me hamburger. I'm thinking it's not
> something I want, but I wanted to check here first to make sure. Is
> hamburger ok to give the dogs?

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Hamburger???
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

Oh, great idea with the Kong. Thanks!

So, it's ok to give them sausage and hotdogs then too? How about Blood
pudding? This lady is offering me all these things.

Natalie

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Hamburger???
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

"nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote:

> Oh, great idea with the Kong. Thanks!

Hamburger -- or ground chicken, or turkey, or lamb, or whatever -- is
great inside Kongs. Especially if frozen, IME. While I don't find
that ground meat has much other purpose in my dog's diet, I do buy it
for this limited reason.

> So, it's ok to give them sausage and hotdogs then too? How about
Blood
> pudding?

BUT it's a jump to go from stuffing Kongs -- basically a treat or
entertaining toy -- with something that's basically just ground-up,
unseasoned, raw meat, all the way to ground-up, seasoned, salted,
perhaps cooked foods.

No sausages, no hot dogs, no blood pudding (or any other kind). As a
snippet, a special taste of something you're eating, a training
treat -- okay, fine. As a meal? Not appropriate.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (9)
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1e. Re: hot dogs/sausage (was Hamburger???)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Natalie,

I would pass on the sausage and hot dogs and any other seasoned meats
(hot dogs are also cooked, anyway)--they have way too much salt and
other ingredients that aren't healthy. I don't know what blood pudding
is. If you think you need to take it all or none, you can decide if
there's enough other stuff to make it worth it and just throw some of
it away when you get home. Or, just tell her you can only use
unseasoned meats due to your dog's allergies, or whatever.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote:
> So, it's ok to give them sausage and hotdogs then too? How about
Blood
> pudding?

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Hamburger???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))

"nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote:
Is
> hamburger ok to give the dogs?
*****
Sometimes, sure.
It's useful for hiding meds in.
It's useful for carnivores that can't for whatever reason rassle
with their meat.
It's useful mixed with tripe.

You can feed it in a block.
You can stuff it in a dock. (Okay, duck.)

But I think we all agree:
It's especially useful when it's free.

I don't feel freezer burn is a big deal but if the stuff is
defrosted and is just sitting out, I would be inclined to pasadena,
myself.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1g. Re: Hamburger???
Posted by: "mousegirls" mousegirls@gmail.com ladysown
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

hamburger...ground meat.
yes, not something you find in the wild, but meat none the less.
good for stuffing kongs, using as filler for bonier meats etc.

I use it whenever I am offered it. It's free! :)

nkayl wrote:
>
> Someone on freecycle is offering me hamburger. I'm thinking it's not
> something I want, but I wanted to check here first to make sure. Is
> hamburger ok to give the dogs?
>

annette
http://ladysown.blogspot.com/
http://agilitynut.wordpress.com/

"What a man is alone on his knees before God, that he is, and no more".-Robert Murray M'Cheyne
"I believe that prayer is the measure of the man, spiritually, in a way that nothing else is, so that how we pray is as important a question as we can ever face"- J.I. Packer

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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1h. Re: Hamburger???
Posted by: "mousegirls" mousegirls@gmail.com ladysown
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

yes!
it's all free,
it's all edible
It's not like you are giving it all the time

only caution with teh sausage...if you have a dog that reacts poorly to
fat, restrict the amount of sausage given in one meal.

Hotdogs... up to you. I don't feed the really poor hotdogs because they
are 90% filler, but the others... go for it. :)

nkayl wrote:
>
> Oh, great idea with the Kong. Thanks!
>
> So, it's ok to give them sausage and hotdogs then too? How about Blood
> pudding? This lady is offering me all these things.
>
> Natalie
>
> __._,_._
annette
http://ladysown.blogspot.com/
http://agilitynut.wordpress.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1i. Re: Hamburger???
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:47 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/25/2007 11:01:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
doglover72@gmail.com writes:

Someone on freecycle is offering me hamburger. I'm thinking it's not
something I want, but I wanted to check here first to make sure. Is
hamburger ok to give the dogs?

Natalie,

Free is Free.. take it, smile and feed it to the dogs..

if you want to make it more interesting for the dogs, thaw it and make it
into meal size balls or sticks and refreeze and feed frozen..

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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2.1. Turkey necks
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

I am new to this group--have been feeding my 13 lb. Pomeranian raw food for a month now. I have been feeding him chicken (breasts, backs, started out with wings). He has been doing fine for the past several weeks on the chicken. I have tried offering a little chicken liver, but each time I do, it seems to give him diarrhea. The same with beef (I have given him beef rib bones)--which each time causes him to have a very black, very loose stool. For the past several days, he doesn't seem to want to eat the chicken--so I am trying turkey. I found some really nice, large turkey necks on sale, and he seems to love them. I know they have a lot of bone, so I plan on feeding him just some turkey meat for his second meal today. My question is--I have read that there is a chance of choking on turkey necks. Does this just apply to a dog larger than a 13 lb. pom? I love this list--have read lots of material on raw feeding, but you guys have been my best teachers!u
:-) Patty

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Messages in this topic (67)
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2.2. Re: Turkey necks
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:06 pm ((PDT))

> I have tried offering a little chicken liver, but each time I do,
> it seems to give him diarrhea.

With a little thing like your dog I would make sure you are giving
only a thumbnail's worth of liver at a time. Maybe try giving the
liver bit with a bonier meal to keep the loose stools away.

> The same with beef (I have given him beef rib bones)--which each
> time causes him to have a very black, very loose stool.

Beef is fattier, and ribs don't have much meat but they do have lots
of fat and sinew which will probably cause the loose stools.
Intensive chewing also seems to loosen up poo as well, so it might be
better to try a meatier piece of beef mixed in with a normal chicken
meal.

> For the past several days, he doesn't seem to want to eat the
> chicken--so I am trying turkey.

Variety is great, but make sure you are adding variety on your
schedule, not your dog's. Switching up proteins just because the dog
doesn't feel like eating what you give them isn't quite the answer,
you don't want to end up with a picky dog.

> I have read that there is a chance of choking on turkey necks.
> Does this just apply to a dog larger than a 13 lb. pom?

(= Yes, I believe a turkey neck is about the size of your pom, yes?
I don't consider anything a choking hazard unless the dog can try to
swallow it in one gulp.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (67)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Elk organs
Posted by: "Liz" tvliz24@izoom.net liztv2456
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

My sister and her husband live on an elk farm and butcher a few elk a
couple times a year. They are going to save (for me) the stuff they
don't use, mostly the internal organs.

Are there any organs that you WOULD NOT use to feed dogs?

Thanks,
Liz
MN

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

>Are there any organs that you WOULD NOT use to feed dogs?

Well...intestine and bladder maybe???

I am not sure about genital area...anybody feed it to dogs?

My dog occasionally get bully sticks(made from cow genital area) but that is only thing she gets made with genital stuff.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:18 pm ((PDT))

"Liz" <tvliz24@...> wrote:

> Are there any organs that you WOULD NOT use to feed dogs?
*****
No.
Although there may be organs my dogs might reject, once fed.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Elk organs
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:25 pm ((PDT))

I am not sure about genital area...anybody feed it to dogs?

I have fed pork fries which is pig testicles and my dogs really like them....

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
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4.1. Re: Now what?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

Please take all parasite and all vaccine discussion to RawChat or
DogHealth. The rawfeeding list is not (as in NOT) the place for these
topics.

Further non-diet postings to this thread will be deleted.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (29)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

>Perhaps try beating the raw egg and mixing it or pouring it over some other item she likes

Hi,Ginny. Thank you for your suggestion.

I know that brown egg and white egg is nutritionally same and justfrom different breed of chicken.

My problem was when I feed cage free Eggto palette (in thiscase,brown one),she gets loose poo. And,when I feed white egg (caged) ,she does well on it...

I am not sure why she torelates differently.

so,your suggestion is, pour tiny bit over several feeding til she gets better torelates?

She loooves Egg,so,she needs nothing to eat with to eat Egg.She loves Egg.only torelance prob.

If cooking it does not help building torelance,then,try little by little over several feeding then?

thank you

yassy

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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

Maybe Palette is reacting to a difference in what the chickens are fed
(soy, corn, etc.). I think it would be hard to figure out the exact
reason.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> My problem was when I feed cage free Eggto palette (in
thiscase,brown one),she gets loose poo. And,when I feed white egg
(caged) ,she does well on it...
>
> I am not sure why she torelates differently.
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

Well, my cats were big fans of canned tuna and canned cat food to
start with, so that was a big help. Cut the meat into tiny tiny
pieces and mix them in with a can of their regular food and let it
marinate overnight. The cats would eat the food if it smelled like
their regular food and was cut into tiny bits. Over several months I
would slowly increase the size of the bits until they were used to
eating chunks. Then over several more months I reduced the amount of
canned food that was mixed in until they would try meat all on its
own.

I'll also say that trying different kinds of meats is really
important with cats. I had to go through the whole rigamrol with
every kind of meat until I discovered the magic that is pork cheek.
All three cats went crazy for pork cheek and now all I have to do is
add some pork with a new protein and they *might* try it without
fussing.

Have you checked out the rawcat list? It's a list completely
dedicated to our finicky felines and everyone there has really
helpful ideas. That's where I learned to do the "Oops" way of
feeding. My most finicky cat will eat anything if I "accidentally"
drop it on the floor.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "persephoneinfall"
<persephoneinfall@...> wrote:
>
> Andrea,
> can you share any tips on how you transitioned the finicky cats?

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

7. Need advise on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "Kathy Tompson" imscottish@sbcglobal.net imscottishtoo
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carole,

I am a boardmember and foster for a small dog rescue group. We feed raw exclusively and strongly recommend that adopters do continue to feed raw. Honestly, we send an email with links and general info once the application starts to look like it might be approved and prior to the home visit. We tell the potential adopter that this is information on the diet that mother nature intended and the diet the dog has been on. We ask the potential adopter to read over it and check out the links, then let us know what they think and ask any questions they may have.

When we visit their home, we discuss this further and get a feel for whether the will really feed raw or not. Truthfully, if they don't want to feed raw. they are not approved for adoption but we do not throw it at them that way. We just educate them about the problems caused by commercial foods and we do tell them if they do not feed raw, the poor dog will end up with the same problems we just spent time and energy rehabilitating them from.

I hope this helps. We adopted a sweet ex puppy mill dog to a family of 4 vegetarians last weekend. They are feeding raw! Oh, we do stay in touch and offer to mentor and help so that it is easy for the adopter and so we know if they are sticking with it AND we take the 6 meals (3 days) of meals frozen seperately.

Hope this helps!

Kathy

Please give me some suggestions on how to begin the
discussion and things to say since the topic of "what food do you
feed?" ALWAYS comes up. Thanks to all of you for all of the
wonderful information that is given on this website!

Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhoumds and 2 Italian Greys)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Skin or not?
Posted by: "ri_bulldogs" ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com ri_bulldogs
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
Now
> that you fed a meal with no skin/fat you have an advantage because you
> can see how it goes before your next meal and if all is going well, no
> loose stools, l'd leave the chicken as is for the next meal.
> Nice to meet you and your bulldog crew, KathyM
>
Kathy,

Their stool is actually far better than it has ever been, prior to
feeding raw chicken everything was too loose, and the quantity was much
larger. How many days, in your opinion, would be a fair trial before
allowing them to try the skin?

Thanks,
Becky

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: Skin or not?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:25 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ri_bulldogs" <ri_bulldogs@...> wrote:
How many days, in your opinion, would be a fair trial before
> allowing them to try the skin?

Hi Becky,
Since everything is going great for your dogs, i would let them eat
the skin at their next meal. If you are seeing such positive results
instantly, i would say with confidence that you will be fine. Just
don't get all excited and introduce any new meat, yet. Lets see how
the chicken with all the skin and fat works for you for a few days.
Its great to hear good news from you. Let us know how it goes, KathyM

Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: Skin or not?
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:25 pm ((PDT))

I have a skin question too. My dogs seem to choke on it. It's like
they can't chew it up and start to just swallow it whole and end up
choking themselves. I have to pull it out of their mouths like a clown
pulling colored scarves from his sleeve. I've been cutting it off and
throwing it out. Maybe I should be cutting it off then into small
edible pieces and put it back in the bowl? Is a must to have the skin
or would it be ok to never have it?

Natalie

Messages in this topic (8)
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8d. Re: Skin or not?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:37 pm ((PDT))

"nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote:
My dogs seem to choke on it. It's like
> they can't chew it up and start to just swallow it whole and end
up
> choking themselves. I have to pull it out of their mouths like a
clown
> pulling colored scarves from his sleeve.
*****
I have a dog like this as well. He crushes body parts and since
skin don't crush, when he swallows the crushed bone the skin just
goes along in one long section and he chokes. In five years he's
never figured this out. Chomp, swallow, choke. Chomp, swallow,
choke.

I've been cutting it off and
> throwing it out.
*****
Don't toss it. What I do is "perforate" the skin by snipping it in
places; making it pre-sliced for him, if you get my drift. I leave
all the skin on but when he chomps and swallows, the skin pulls
apart before it can clog up the tubing. If this doesn't work (it
should), then cut the skin up and feed it in the bowl.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Christine!
You've gotten some great advice!
The only additional suggestions that I'd make would be to offer to have the
prospective adoptors come by at feeding time, maybe more than once; to see
raw feeding in action, let them see 'how you do it', how the dogs eat and
love it, show them your fridge, freezer, feeding areas, feeding and cleaning
practices and solutions.
You could also offer to package up several day's worth of a variety of meals
for her, so they would have a 'cushion' of time to get used to what and how
to feed her before having to shop for stuff.
You could make up a list of sources; supermarkets, ethnic markets, local
farmers, online places, whatever you use, so that they wouldn't have to do
any searching on their own at first.
HTHs
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/25/07, Christine <chrizk20@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "carolejc2007" <mooska2me@...> wrote:
> Please give me some suggestions on how to begin the
> > discussion and things to say since the topic of "what food do you
> > feed?" ALWAYS comes up. Thanks to all of you for all of the
> > wonderful information that is given on this website!
> >
> > Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhoumds and 2 Italian Greys)
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12203

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: carolejc2007
1b. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: Denise Strother
1c. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: marclre
1d. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
From: Christine

2a. Re: Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberm
From: Casey Post

3a. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: nkayl

4a. Two cats, different levels of transition
From: persephoneinfall
4b. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
From: Andrea
4c. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
From: persephoneinfall

5a. Detroit area raw feeding
From: Suzanne J
5b. Re: Detroit area raw feeding
From: persephoneinfall

6a. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
From: Andrea
6b. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Andrea
7b. Re: Hi everyone!
From: merril Woolf
7c. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Denise Strother
7d. Re: Hi everyone!
From: costrowski75

8.1. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
From: miensasis
8.2. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
From: tottime47

9. My Intro with a question of actual barfing/vomit (sorry=)
From: GoldenGirlAldi

10a. Re: Pup with worms
From: Tina Berry
10b. ADMIN/Re: Pup with worms
From: costrowski75

11a. Smelts
From: raffiangel2
11b. Re: Smelts
From: costrowski75

12.1. Re: Now what?
From: dancingbarefoot_11

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:49 am ((PDT))

Hi everyone. I read this board on a daily basis and have learned so
much from you all. I have been raw feeding my dogs for five weeks
now and will never go back to ki**le. Raw rules!!!

I foster for two rescue groups (Greyhounds and Italian Greys). One
of my big Greys (I call her mine but she is a foster) is potentially
going to be adopted this weekend. Any way, my conundrum at this
point is this; now do I approach the adoptive family that I feed
raw? It is especially important for this particular dog since she
has always had a sensitive tummy on ki**le. I could never find a
ki**le that agreed with her tummy. Raw meat/bones have never been a
problem for her digestion and her poops are "normal" now. I know
many people still cringe at the thought of feeding raw and are
totally turned off by it. (I was "one of those" for a few years.) I
know that if she gets adopted and they start feeding her ki**le
again, her same tummy problems and soft serve poops will start all
over again. Please give me some suggestions on how to begin the
discussion and things to say since the topic of "what food do you
feed?" ALWAYS comes up. Thanks to all of you for all of the
wonderful information that is given on this website!

Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhoumds and 2 Italian Greys)

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:17 am ((PDT))

Carole,
I know how you feel, my fosters are my dogs til they find their new
home. I would just tell them what you told us in your post. I also
make sure my dog's adopters know that if there is any kind of issue
or problem that they are more than welcome to call me anytime. You
could also put together some info on rawfeeding. Email me privately
and I will send you a copy of the one I use and you can add or
subtract anything from it for your own use. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carolejc2007" <mooska2me@...>
wrote:
...one of my big Greys (I call her mine but she is a foster) is
potentially going to be adopted this weekend. Any way, my conundrum
at this point is this; now do I approach the adoptive family that I
feed raw? It is especially important for this particular dog since
she has always had a sensitive tummy on ki**le. I could never find
a ki**le that agreed with her tummy. Raw meat/bones have never been
a problem for her digestion and her poops are "normal" now. I know
many people still cringe at the thought of feeding raw and are
totally turned off by it. (I was "one of those" for a few years.)
I know that if she gets adopted and they start feeding her ki**le
again, her same tummy problems and soft serve poops will start all
over again. Please give me some suggestions on how to begin the
discussion and things to say since the topic of "what food do you
feed?" ALWAYS comes up. Thanks to all of you for all of the
wonderful information that is given on this website!

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

Carole maybe the best way is just to get right to it and explain the feeding issue to these
folks *before* they make their final decision. Let them know you've had to go through a
number of different feeds due to this girls' stomach problems and have discovered the one
which works best for her is raw. This is very important since they don't want to get it
wrong and then be dealing with a sick dog/runny poop down the line etc etc. You could
have a diet sheet/sources etc ready & also send them to the following links.

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

Also this Rawfeeding list of course!

Marie-Claire

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Need advice on how to approach the subject of raw feeding
Posted by: "Christine" chrizk20@yahoo.com chrizk20
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carolejc2007" <mooska2me@...> wrote:
Please give me some suggestions on how to begin the
> discussion and things to say since the topic of "what food do you
> feed?" ALWAYS comes up. Thanks to all of you for all of the
> wonderful information that is given on this website!
>
> Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhoumds and 2 Italian Greys)
>

Hi Carole,
If this were me... I would make sure I had some hand outs to give them
on the benifits of raw, what it means to give raw, what raw foods to
give, the myths about raw, etc. I would also give them handouts on what
is in K**ble, why its bad, etc, etc. This way, they can read about
K**ble vs. RAW type thing. Give them website to go to such as:

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.rawlearning.com/
and this yahoo group and many other websites.
Also, maybe the Works Wonder http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

also, explain to them why you feel that feeding raw to this dog is
important ....

again, if this were me, i would give them the information before the
they adopted the dog, so that they could read it all first and kind of
digest it all and hopefully perpare for the changes. IF at that point
that they felt they couldnt do raw for this dog, I would not let them
adopt the dog. And i would find a different home that would feed raw.
But this is just me and my opinions.

Hope that helps,
christine

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberm
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

> first thought huge swelling was lymphoma, paperwork from rescue came LATE
> (like 5 months after adoption was final) and it was hypothyroidism from
> the
> start and not lymphoma
>
> What foods? ratio? timetable would he need to get over the 2 wks of chemo
> and help straighten this poor service dog doberman out?

**I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused - chemo for hypothyroidism? I know about
radioactive iodine for hyperthyroidism, but ...oh wait - are you saying that
this service dog was treated for a cancer that he didn't have?

> owner still insists crap is better, BUT he isnt tolerating it. he LOVES
> tripe and LOVES raw chicken.. but should he get other meats? and im
> confused? not sure what to tell her

**Tripe and raw chicken would be a fine plan for weeks, if need be -
especially if that's what you have available and that's what this poor beast
is tolerating right now.

> due to my disability, im not able to read posts on the website. i have
> enough trouble reading it here on gmail,

**I'm hoping you've got your account set up to receive individual emails and
can read this.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

Thank you everyone for all the great information. I feel better now.

Natalie

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Two cats, different levels of transition
Posted by: "persephoneinfall" persephoneinfall@gmail.com persephoneinfall
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))

I'm in the process of transitioning my cats to raw. One is older and
extremely picky/stubborn. I am trying to transition her by adding tiny
amounts of raw to her canned, but she knows they're in there and
refuses to eat, for the most part. She is also a very slow eater in
normal circumstances. She likes to take breaks and come back later,
probably a leftover from her days as a k***le grazer. I would have no
problem leaving things for her to try or finish at her leisure, but my
younger cat is a huge pig. I've had a problem with feeding both of
them since I got him. He wolfs down his food, then goes after hers,
often before he's even finished his own. He wants everyone's food!
She doesn't stop him either. The problem I'm having now is that I'm
starting him on the raw diet in a real way, but he doesn't want to do
all the work involved, especially with bones. He can smell the canned
I'm giving to the older cat, so goes looking. Does anyone have any
experience with having two animals that are in different stages of raw
feeding? Do you have any tips for me?
thanks, annette

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:06 am ((PDT))

All of my cats are incredibly picky and only one took to the diet in a
timeley fashion (and by that I mean it only took a month before she was
eating only raw). One of them is still a PITA after a year and a
half. I have to feed her in a separate room with the door closed or
the other two will eat her food. When she is alone she eats better, so
I usually feed her in the study while I am working on the computer so
that she doesn't feel rushed.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "persephoneinfall"
<persephoneinfall@...> wrote:

> Does anyone have any experience with having two animals that are in
> different stages of raw feeding? Do you have any tips for me?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Two cats, different levels of transition
Posted by: "persephoneinfall" persephoneinfall@gmail.com persephoneinfall
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:13 am ((PDT))

Andrea,
can you share any tips on how you transitioned the finicky cats? any
help I can get in this area would be great, because my baby girl is
the most stubborn creature i have ever met, plus very smart. she
knows when there's some chunks of meat in there and she'll just turn
up her nose! (also, what is a PITA?)
annette.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> All of my cats are incredibly picky and only one took to the diet in a
> timeley fashion (and by that I mean it only took a month before she was
> eating only raw). One of them is still a PITA after a year and a
> half.
> Andrea
>
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Detroit area raw feeding
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

Just an fyi, I've been getting good bargains at Detroit Farmer's
Market. Chicken backs, feet, whole chickens at Capital Poultry, Sheep
heads, livers, hearts around the corner from there at a
slaughterhouse. Pigs feet, pork shoulder, etc, etc., all within the
same few blocks, and all at super prices. If you live in the area, I'd
start heading down there.

Suzanne Jacques/Royal Oak, MI

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Detroit area raw feeding
Posted by: "persephoneinfall" persephoneinfall@gmail.com persephoneinfall
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

I live in Hamtramck and go the market every week. I'm assuming that
the places you're talking about are the meat wholesalers down there.
Do that have any requirements about the amounts you have to buy? I am
just starting out feeding two cats, with little storage/freezer space
so I can't really buy in bulk. also, what's the outlook on other
organs? is there some variety there? have you seen rabbits and small
game birds as well?
thanks for the info!
annette.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne J" <suzjoxx@...> wrote:
>
> Just an fyi, I've been getting good bargains at Detroit Farmer's
> Market. Chicken backs, feet, whole chickens at Capital Poultry, Sheep
> heads, livers, hearts around the corner from there at a
> slaughterhouse. Pigs feet, pork shoulder, etc, etc., all within the
> same few blocks, and all at super prices. If you live in the area, I'd
> start heading down there.
>
> Suzanne Jacques/Royal Oak, MI
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:49 am ((PDT))

Dee, it sounds like you have a plethora of fun stuff at this place!
Some of it would be just for fun snacks to me, but some sound great.

> - the Asian grocer sells whole poultry. As in, head and feet
> intact. My little boy will be 4-5 lbs when he comes home - will I
> be able to serve these to him?

Sure, I don't see any problem with them. Feet are really soft and I
don't imagine the skull is any harder than the thigh bone really. My
boys loooove whole chickens when we can get them.

> - may I give him squid as a meat only meal? Is there enough fat in
> it for a growing little boy, or should I add something to the meal?

Squid seems more like a for fun thing for me, though I've never tried
feeding it. I think Yassy fed her Corgi some squid once, maybe she
will chime in to let you know how it went.

> - can I feed him whole, shell-on shrimp? Would shrimp shells f
> ulfill his bone needs for the meal?

Remember that you don't have to have a completely "balanced" meal
every time so even if your pup doesn't eat the shells it is ok. I
fed shrimp to my boys once and they really enjoyed them. Again, this
item would be a fun variety meal instead of a staple in their diet.

> - for fish meals, does it make a difference if he gets a small
> fishy that he can eat in its entirety at one meal, or if I get a
> larger fish that I need to cut into portions for such a small boy?

When you start with fish, start slowly adding some fish into a
regular meal then work your way up. The first time Geiger ate fish I
gave him a whole 2lb monkfish for his meal and he was kind enough to
vomit it onto my bed in the middle of the night. Now I make sure he
gets a small meal of new fish at first and it hasn't happened since.

> - does anyone know anything about a silkie (black-skinned) chicken?
> How digestible is it as a first food compared to a regular chicken?

As far as I can tell the only difference with the black chicken is
that the skin, meat, and bones are black. I assume the flavor is
different, but I'm not sure. These birds should be just as edible as
standard chickens.

> - can I feed snails to my pup? How about oysters or scallops?

If your pup will eat them, sure. Tycho loves to snuffle around after
it rains to find snails. Oysters and scallops are something I would
be too greedy to share with them.

Of course, all this variety shouldn't be introduced too quickly. Go
slowly at first so you can determine how easily your pup accepts new
foods. Don't go overboard with excitement, I know it is hard.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Specific feeding questions... Lots of them....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:52 am ((PDT))

"D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
> - the Asian grocer sells whole poultry. As in, head and feet
intact. My
> little boy will be 4-5 lbs when he comes home - will I be able to
serve
> these to him?
*****
How old will the kid be?
Yes, you can most certainly feed through all chickens. What will
likely be problematic is your having to cut them into useful meal
size: If you cannot comfortably whack and dismember these chickens
you should consider other birds. For the pup, all are good eatin'.
I delight in feeding these "whole" birds to my dogs.

> - may I give him squid as a meat only meal? Is there enough fat in
it for a
> growing little boy, or should I add something to the meal?
*****
Squid is like totally extraneous. I would not waste money on it
ever, nor time on it now. Later if you have some mad money to get
rid of, try squid. Otherwise, focus on body parts from ungulates
and ruminants.

How would a duck
> wing work with a piece of squid - would that balance out the fat,
bone
*****
Forget the squid, okay? Squid is not species appropriate and isn't
even a reasonable facsimile. Feed a chicken wing with more chicken.

> - can I feed him whole, shell-on shrimp? Would shrimp shells
fulfill his
> bone needs for the meal?
*****
In fact, move away from that section entirely. You'll have time to
feed shrimp after you've mastered the basics. Shrimp shells are not
bones and don't take the place of bones in a carnivore's diet. They
do however offer naturally-occurring chondroitin which may be a
useful bit of knowing for later.

> - for fish meals, does it make a difference if he gets a small
fishy that he
> can eat in its entirety at one meal, or if I get a larger fish
that I need
> to cut into portions for such a small boy?
*****
Generally, no. When possible feed food that encourages a dog (of
any age or size) to work for its meal. Do fish meals make a
difference? Generally, no. Not unless you are struggling for
protein variety.

> - does anyone know anything about a silkie (black-skinned)
chicken? How
> digestible is it as a first food compared to a regular chicken?
*****
It's chicken. If you can afford it, feed it. It might be older
which might make it more difficult to eat, though not necessarily to
digest. If you are looking to spend big bucks on poultry, consider
instead freeranging chicken and turkey.

> - can I feed snails to my pup? How about oysters or scallops?
*****
Again, get away from that part of the store. I think your mind is
being addled by the freon. Oysters may be useful when feeding a
zinc-deficient dog. Otherwise, pfft. Scallops are silly unless you
can get them fresh, unequivocally scallop and not shark, and
preferably free.

You want snails, round up some at home, make sure they're not full
of snailbait, then let your pup decide. My dogs used scavenge
crushed snails but never volunteered to hunt any down.

> Okay... I think that's all I can think of for now....
*****
Dee, I think you may be thinking far too much.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))

I wouldn't suggest adding lots of new things willy nilly into the
diet, but in my experience pups don't need the full week or two to
get used to a new food. I was very diligent with my first puppy
waiting exactly one week before moving from chicken to pork, and
waiting a full week between adding the first three or four proteins.
After the first month or so I was just too excited to wait a week to
try new stuff, so I just cut the week down to two days. With the
excetpion of the monkfish debacle, all went well. With my newest
puppy I started with chicken and two days later started adding in one
new thing every two days. Tycho has an iron stomach it seems, and
other than some loose stools he hasn't had any problems to speak of.

I'd suggest sticking with just chicken for a week and then experiment
with how well the pup does with new things. Don't add more than one
new thing at a time because if he reacts poorly you won't know what
did it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:

> So are you guys saying that all the advice about feeding only
> chicken for two weeks does not apply to puppies? So I should give
> him tonnes of variety right from the get go, and he won't get sick?

Messages in this topic (9)
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7b. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:56 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Okay, I just read all the old posts on switching a puppy to raw, and
> although I want to say thank you for referring me to the information - now
> I'm slightly smarter and totally confused and freaking out!!!

Simma down now...

>
> So are you guys saying that all the advice about feeding only chicken for
> two weeks does not apply to puppies? So I should give him tonnes of variety
> right from the get go, and he won't get sick?

I start all my pups on variety. Lots of it. They don't have the same meal twice most of
the time. Some days it's chicken, tripe and offal. Other days it's a hunk of goat. Other
days it's cow. Other days it's fish or eggs. Sometimes all of the above on the same
day...almost. :-))
Every day is a new day for the pups and adults alike.
I breed dogs so they've never eaten kibble ever but I have had kibble weaned pups come
to live here and their first meal is raw. I don't make exceptions because his first weeks
were on kibble.
You, on the other hand, can decide what to do however you wish. I think most of us that
raise lots of puppies over the years just automatically just feed them whatever the adults
are eating only in appropriate puppy sizes. Sometimes ground for tiny pups or in slivers,
chunks, scraped or whole pieces.

> I know I'm totally hyperventilating, and my little boy isn't actually coming
> home for almost three more weeks, but... Yikes!!! Help!!! I want to
> introduce my baby to as much wonderful nutritious variety as I can, but I
> don't want to make him sick!!!

You need to relax and stop working yourself up. It's not rocket science. Feeding pups is
easy. No pieces big enough to choke on. Grind if you are unsure. Chop or sliver some
items.
Great fish for little guys is smelts. Easy to eat and fun.

Don't expect the pup to eat huge amounts either. Raw is very satisfying so feeding 2-3
times a day is all he needs at first and a big hunk of food can keep a pup going for many
hours. Don't expect him to be hungry all the time and don't try and over feed. Just let
him eat what he wants. I offer food and take up any they don't eat. I feed twice a day
to start with then go to once a day when I forget that he's still a pup. ;-))

> I know, I know... If I'm designing his menu three weeks before the kid even
> comes home I need to get a life...

Yep, you do. I live for my dogs too, but you need to calm down and breathe.

No 'designing' menus. Just buy up lots of items and stow them in your freezer. Each
day, take out a few small packages of what you will need the following day.
Each day can be anything you want it to be.

I go to the freezer, stand in the open door and ponder my dogs next day meals. Some
days they are really 'out there' meals and other days are just chicken backs.
For the pups, since they eat 2 times a day (if I remember), they get two different meals.
I like doing boney meals with green tripe.
Organ meals with eggs or tripe.
big old bone days. (whole or half a large animal) Pups can gnaw on those for hours.

Pups just need you to think a bit smaller. If you have some chicken, make sure the bone
is appropriate for a small pup. Ribs are best since they are soft. I either grind for tiny
pups or use chicken necks or backs if I don't have chicken breast bones.
Some little breeds can't chew even chicken so you find something they can. Quail or game
hens would work. More costly though.

But he's gorgeous, and tiny, and counting
> on me to do this right... And this is the first time I've ever fed raw, or
> been the sole guardian of a baby pup...

Hmmm, that would be sole owner wouldn't it.

Thanks in advance for talking me
> down from my little anxiety tree....
>
> Dee, Frankie's completely crazy, overprotective and neurotic mommy....

It's a dog, not a child. It's not a fur baby, it's a dog. Repeat this.

Your pup will thrive on a natural diet. That's what it is. He's a dog and you are going to
be feeding him a species appropriate diet. It's simple and it's easy.
No neurosis necessary. No over protective crazy talk here.

-----> :-))))

Merril

Owner of many dogs, not furbabies. Besides, we have enough crazy people here
according to everyone else. :-))

Messages in this topic (9)
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7c. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

Hi Dee,
Merril is exactly right about this not being rocket surgery. There is
no unfixable mistake that you can make feeding raw. But I do hope you
calm down before you get your puppy. Your anxiety will be picked up on
by the puppy and can cause it stress. I also wanted to comment on this
part of Merril's post. Calling yourself the gaurdian of your dog is a
term the Animal Rights groups use. You have less rights pertaining to
your dog as its gaurdian than as its owner. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "merril Woolf" <merril@...>wrote:
But he's gorgeous, and tiny, and counting on me to do this right...
And this is the first time I've ever fed raw, or been the sole
guardian of a baby pup...
>
Hmmm, that would be sole owner wouldn't it.

Messages in this topic (9)
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7d. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:47 am ((PDT))

"D. Rajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
> although I want to say thank you for referring me to the
information - now
> I'm slightly smarter and totally confused and freaking out!!!
*****
Um, I think freaking out is a somewhat excessive response to
confusion. Stop freaking out.

> So are you guys saying that all the advice about feeding only
chicken for
> two weeks does not apply to puppies? So I should give him tonnes
of variety
> right from the get go, and he won't get sick?
*****
I suppose one of the things that's confusing is there are no
absolutes except raw is better than not raw. I think it's safe to
say if your pup has digestive upset he will not be "sick". He will
have a response to food that you would prefer not to see and
certainly not enjoy cleaning up after. But he will not be sick.
Responding to discomfort by removing the discomfort is healthy.

If loose stools and unexpected emissions distress you, then you
should consider feeding through a couple of chickens until you are
comfortable that your pup is comfortable. There is nothing special
or magic about two weeks (that's an awfully long time for a pup) and
there's nothing special or magic about chicken. Since you have to
start somewhere, chicken and two weeks are as good as anything but
they aren't rules.

If you can calm yourself down enough to go with the flow (literally
and figuratively) you can shorten the chicken sentence or at least
make it more interesting by adding--from quite early on--bits of
other meats; tastes, tidbits, hints, anticipations, expectations,
clues to the future. Yes, introduce the texture of liver right
away. But in teensy amounts. Yes, let the pup sample smidgeons of
beef and lamb and pork.

You will be feeding three, maybe four meals a day. You will have
plenty of opportunity to sneak in these flavors. You will have
ample opportunity to fiddle with the diet. In fact, it is your
responsibility to fiddle with the kid's diet. Adjust as you go
along, and along, and along. Really and truly, after one week (21
to 28 individual meals!)you will be speculating about future meals.
Go for it. But in a teensy way.

> I know I'm totally hyperventilating, and my little boy isn't
actually coming
> home for almost three more weeks, but... Yikes!!! Help!!!
*****
Three weeks is a lotta time to get yourself together.
Hyperventilating is neither attractive nor productive unless you are
a Hollywood starlet with more bosom than brains. It certainly
doesn't help feed a good raw diet. Breathe in, breathe out, relax.

> I know, I know... If I'm designing his menu three weeks before the
kid even
> comes home I need to get a life...
*****
Here's an idea. Design his menu. Design several. Use the list
archives and rawfeddogs.net as guidelines, then post your choices to
the list. I promise you, we will tell you if you've gone off the
deep end and how far.

But he's gorgeous, and tiy, and counting
> on me to do this right... And this is the first time I've ever fed
raw, or
> been the sole guardian of a baby pup.
*****
Yeah, and you're not alone. Nor helpless.

> Dee, Frankie's completely crazy, overprotective and neurotic
mommy....
*****
Not so funny, actually. OTOH, better to get it out of your system
now than implode when the pup comes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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8.1. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

Monica...

I'm a newbie here...only been feeding raw and reading/posting on the
lists for a month now...but a had a couple of thoughts.
>
>
>We finally tried adding back some liver yesterday, as I feel organ
>meat is essential to this diet. He had one *tiny* piece (less than
>square - he is 60lbs) and he is back to having an upset tummy

OK..I know this list doesn't normally recommend it for the average
raw fed dog, but maybe you can try cod liver oil? BECAUSE your dog
can't tolerate whole liver, and BECAUSE it is such a nutrient-rich
important organ...maybe this is actually a case that warrants it.
I'm not suggesting you indiscrimately pour it over your dog's food,
but since he is SO sensitive why not start with a teeny tiny drop on
his food and then gradually and slowly increase to a few drops over
time? You don't want to feed so much that you cause toxicity, but at
least he will get some of the nutrition he is lacking in a liver-fed
diet.

I think that we get a lot of recommendations on this list about
what "should" comprise a healthy, balanced, species-appropriate
diet...but no one actually *knows* for sure. I'm going to suggest
you look at it differently. Rabbit, goat, pork are not HEALTHY foods
for YOUR dog. In fact, they make him sick. In a perfect world we
should try to feed this variety...but you are not dealing with a
perfect scenario. So just stick with what works for YOUR dog...and
let the rest of those "shoulds" go. You have been an amazing,
responsible guardian of your dog. You have never vaccinated, you go
great lengths to feed a raw diet he can tolerate---just trust that
that is enough. I say this because I am a human who has many, many
food sensitivities, intolerances, and allergies. I'm constantly hit
with a barrage of media about superfoods...eat this or that to live a
long life. At first it drove me nuts...but then I came to this
acceptance that these foods are just not for me. They are not super-
foods for me....they are they opposite--they make me sick. And I
decided to just work with what is within my control--the foods I CAN
tolerate--and make the best choices for me and the biology I was born
with. Hope that helps!

>
> So many of you take such a high-brow, sarcastic tone with newbies
> trying to do right by their dog by EVEN seeking information on
> rawfeeding while so many here are very good at making many of them
> feel stupid. Where are the opinions when a long time (4yr poster)
> needs help?

When I first joined this list it was intimidating and I honestly felt
that some of the posts were unnecessarily harsh. I wanted to run,
but I stayed because there is such a wealth of info on the list.
Soon I began to see that they overwhelming majority of posts were
supportive and helpful. And then I began to see that even though
some of the posters have a style that is strong, sarcastic, or tell-
it-like-it-is, that underlying that style is a caring, committed,
passionate, knowledgeable person doing a whole lot of service on this
list. As a 4 year poster, I would suspect that's part of the reason
you have stuck around. Just hang onto that and trust that the people
here are doing their best with the best intentions.

I will keep you and your dog in my thoughts and prayers.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (28)
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8.2. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:10 am ((PDT))

Hi Monica,

I'm another who has no expertise along this line but my heart goes
out to you & Loki.

Given I don't know squat about the disease, I would go and join
several of the pancreatic groups on Yahoo.

I checked last night and they seem to have some information on diet
and such that might be helpful to you if you haven't already checked
them out?

Did your vet give you a pancreatic enzyme? I know, from what I''ve
been reading that they have to have that and also should be fed
several small meals everyday instead of one. If you already know all
this, I'm sorry for posting it again, but just trying to help what
little I can.

Have you thought about feeding deer or wild game? I know they are
much leaner meats than what we get at the store.

I read an article lately that said a pack of wolves were surviving on
mainly a whole fish diet. Scientists said they were surprised that
was their main food supply and they were thriving.

So, I would say if you find one animal that is OK for Loki, I would
try feeding all the parts to him from that animal only and see if he
can handle it over time...........

Personally I do think you could feed one single animal,prey style,
and keep your dog healthy. You might have to supplement with
different vitamins or minerals but not sure what ones would be best
for him.
I also know lots of people try feeding the raw pancreas to pancreatic
dogs too, if you haven't tried that yet....

I don't know if this helps any, as I said I don't know a lot about
the disease, except what I've read and my heart really goes out to
you, as I've had my share with a dog this year too.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Monica" <mommyof2gals@...> wrote:

> I do not expect medical diagnosis, but I cannot believe that no one
> will just flat out tell me if it is HEALTHY or not to keep a dog
> strictly on poultry with no organ meat, fish, rabbit etc. For Gods
> sake, if its not healthy then just say it. I'm sure other committed
> rawfeeders will not turn away when their pets are thriving. And if
> one or two who are on the fence walk away from the prospect, then
so be it.

> Frustrated and tired of the silence
> Monica and Loki

Messages in this topic (28)
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9. My Intro with a question of actual barfing/vomit (sorry=)
Posted by: "GoldenGirlAldi" aldona99@yahoo.com aldona99
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:42 am ((PDT))

Hello Fellow Raw-Feeders! :-)

My name is Aldona, born and raised in the good ole USA, Rochester, NY. I currently live in Germany, smack in the middle, I do believe...

I've had a few years experience of feeding our dogs the more natural way, and have done my studies, and plenty of research... things have changed since then, due to illness, family distress and other things, and we did less raw, and ended up getting a diet kibble. Not proud of it, but hey, I was going through a real tough time, and I wish I had some support back then. Anyway, things have gotten better, and just a bit easier, oh, and the family constellation has also changed since "then".

We now have Sheldon, our Sheltie girl, almost 8 yrs., and Marley, Golden Retriever pup, 13 Weeks old this Saturday. Since I've always been a great fan and advocate of raw feeding, bringing Marley into our family is helping me get back onto track, but I'm still a bit unsure of myself. For instance if I'm giving him enough foods, or not enough... I tried first with chicken wings, but found that he threw the bigger bones up in the middle of the night, so now I put them through the meat grinder first.

This morning I gave him some lamb meat with bits of everything else, and I think it might have been a wee bit too cold. Anyway, he ended up throwing that up, plus some! Either he is getting too much, or it was too cold for his stomach. I usually give him some oatmeal with oil, bee pollen, honey and milk, but I forgot to prepare it last night, so I gave him the meat instead.

Now he's gnawing on a turkey carcass. He acts like such a novice, compared to the golden retrievers I used to have, and it's amazing the way it was so easy to get our litter pups to eat raw meats and bones.

I'm really getting alot of information from the postings here so far, and look forward to learning more°!

Golden Greetings,
Aldona Guenter, Germany.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:04 am ((PDT))

I dont' recommend chemical treatment from a vet tho; DE works great for
worms.

http://blackkatherbs.com/pets.htm

Put a teaspoon in their food daily (or 2 depending on the size of your pup)
for about 3 weeks and it naturally kills the worms by breaking their bodies
open and they die.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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10b. ADMIN/Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

What is there about OFF TOPIC that is so difficult to understand? We
have already determined that worms are not a result of raw meat. We
have already determined that worming is off toic for this list.

So no more, okay?
No more worming cures. Not one. None. Zero.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. Smelts
Posted by: "raffiangel2" snazgal@aol.com raffiangel2
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

I found frozen smelts...bought a bag, rushed home all excited to see my
furries delighting in their new found treasure.....
Zip!!! nada!!! sniffed, pushed it around the floor and walked away....
Anyone have any experiences with Smelts?? ideas?
Probably not really worthy of worrying about...was a snack/treat not a
meal...
Info on Smelts please??

Phyllis in Delray

Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: Smelts
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:27 am ((PDT))

"raffiangel2" <snazgal@...> wrote:
> Anyone have any experiences with Smelts?? ideas?
*****
My dogs won't eat it and my cat won't eat it. I don't buy it. If it
doesn't work and you don't care, don't pursue it. If it doesn't work
and you really want it to, keep trying.

Try it frozen, try a different source, try it dressed. Give it a few
months' break and try it. Unless you are starved for protein variety,
it's not worth it, IMO.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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12.1. Re: Now what?
Posted by: "dancingbarefoot_11" dancingbarefoot_11@yahoo.com dancingbarefoot_11
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

> Lay off any flea preventives, HW meds, vaccines,

I new to the group and just wanted to clarify something. Do you think
that people should not give their dogs hw preventitive or just in this
case? and what's your view on vaccines? I think the vet industry goes
WAY over board on the vaccine frequencies.

Kris

Messages in this topic (28)
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