[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12354

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Ease the itching
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Ease the itching
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Ease the itching
From: Casey Post
1d. Re: Ease the itching
From: amvilppu
1e. Re: Ease the itching
From: Michael Moore

2a. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
From: Andrea
2b. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
From: Susanne MacLeod

3a. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Kelly
3c. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: amvilppu
3d. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: PRAA and Mega-E
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Fish and Game
From: costrowski75

6a. rawfeeding puppy
From: bunchodogs
6b. Re: rawfeeding puppy
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: rawfeeding puppy
From: carnesbill
6d. Re: rawfeeding puppy
From: connie

7a. new to list - any germans out there?
From: ddgkkg2003
7b. Re: new to list - any germans out there?
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: new to list - any germans out there?
From: SLib700@aol.com

8.1. Re: Help!
From: kahonebay

9. A warning about feeding in wood chips.
From: Maria

10. Raw egg yolks not raw egg whites
From: Sai Simonson

11. Squirrels and Rabbits
From: eclipseapbts

Messages
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1a. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:56 am ((PST))

Hey, Tammy, the safest thing to do would be to go back to pork only and
build up from there. If he's having a problem with one of the foods
you'll be able to pinpoint which one it is by adding only one new
protein every two or three weeks.

It could be a coat change as well. Many dogs seem to go into shedding
overdrive in the first few months of raw before they have a new
beautiful coat. You might look into giving some fish body oil to him,
that helps my pups when they start shedding.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sltahoek9s" <crazy4k9@...> wrote:

> The itching didn't seem to be any worse until the last week. Now
> its pretty bad. He is scratching and chewing at his back end and
> legs.

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:44 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
I agree with Andrea. Go back to the beginning and start over again.
If his itching gets no better after a few weeks on pork only, stop the
pork and try something else. If that doesn't help, his problem is
probably not food related.

Since he performs in public often (I assume you use him for a demo
dog), maybe its stress related. Just a thought.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:56 am ((PST))

Tammy C,

Chewing back end and legs makes me think "fleas". Get a good flea comb and
check your guy over really carefully. Look for flea dirt, little red bites,
etc. - even a couple of fleas can drive a highly allergic dog bonkers with
itching.

My other thought is that if you're in the US, maybe winter dry skin? Some
fish oil (not cod liver oil, just fish body oil) may be all that's needed.
But fleas would definitely be the first thing I check for with this guy.

You said that you made sure your meats weren't enhanced - check the pork
too. Pork in the US is being increasingly enhanced in places and it's
ridiculous.

As for the vaccine issue, that's off topic here and would have to go to
RawChat (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/)

Casey

Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

> Chewing back end and legs makes me think "fleas". Get a good flea comb and
> check your guy over really carefully. Look for flea dirt, little red bites,
> etc. - even a couple of fleas can drive a highly allergic dog bonkers with
> itching.
>
> My other thought is that if you're in the US, maybe winter dry skin? Some
> fish oil (not cod liver oil, just fish body oil) may be all that's needed.
> But fleas would definitely be the first thing I check for with this guy.
>

The itching may be allergy related but not diet related. My girlfriend has two goldens with
tons of environmental allergies and for whatever reason the fall and winter months here in
California are when theirs really kick up. Lots of miserable itching and chewing! Good luck!

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (6)
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1e. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 11:48 am ((PST))

>>Not sure what to do about that one yet since I'm a trainer and he's in public all the
time.<<

Tammy -- this is off-topic for the rawfeeding list, but I own a training school and my dogs are in the public all the time too. You may e-mail me off-list for my opinions, or you can join the JstSayNo2Vaccs list.

My thought on your guy's itchies -- might the chicken you're feeding be enhanced? Some dogs have reactions to the solutions used to "enhance" said meat.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

Could be that it was too "new" for her. Could be that she ate it too
quickly. Could be she didn't chew much the first time. Did you let
her try to re-eat it? I'd try it again and if she horks it up leave it
for her. If she isn't interested in re-eating it she may just not like
rabbit.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "killarneykateau" <catherin@...>
wrote:

> I fed my 15 kilo dog a rabbit leg today, human grade meat, and she
> vomited it up half an hour later. She usually eats lamb shanks,
> chicken carcasses, chicken necks, some fish. Should I try some rabbit
> again?

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:10 am ((PST))

"killarneykateau" <catherin@...> wrote:
> I fed my 15 kilo dog a rabbit leg today, human grade meat, and she
vomited it up half an
> hour later.
*****
Since none of the other foods you feed are rabbit, rabbit was a novel
food to her and her system decided it was too movel. Or maybe the bone
was too difficult (did she chomp or just slime and swallow?). Or
perhaps a rabbit leg is too bony a part to start with.

If you want to pursue rabbit, I recommend you give her meat first no
bone, then judge her reaction. Perhaps add the meat to a meal she is
already accustomed to.

Don't give up, just go slow.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

My guys....Joey and Kate (French Bulldogs) love rabbit, but my boy Joey
had the same difficulty. He hurled it up after....not sure why. I
decided to try to hold the leg and let him slowly eat it, and make sure
he chewed it all, was crucial. Once he found hi way...he was all
good. No more vomiting. His sister Kate had no problem, but she's a
great eater!
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:11 am ((PST))

> Last night I offered a chicken quarter. <snip> Do I just let him
> poke around for a while then pick it up and try again the next day
> and just continue till he figures out he needs to pin the dang
> thing down and rip it up?

I'm a big advocate of bigger is better, but a chicken quarter might
be a little daunting for the kid. I'd cut into the meat so that
there are ribbons that he can get a hold of. He's got the instincts,
he just needs a nudge to figure out the logistics of eating.

> Also, he's only pooped 1/4 of a TEASPOON since the chicken wing
> Tuesday night. I bought some pure pumpkin last night

Many newbie dogs don't poo for the first couple of days after
switching to raw. Their bodies are digesting everything they can
from the food so there isn't much waste. In the future if your pup
is constipated it would be more advisable to feed a meaty meal or a
glop of organ instead of pumpkin.

> I'm open to suggestions/comments - anything :)

Other than ribboning the meat you might want to give something easier
like a breast quarter or a cornish game hen. Little'uns often take
some time to build up thier jaw strength to where they can crunch
larger chicken bones.

Other than not knowing how to tackle his food, it sounds like he's
doing just great, and so are you. Let us know how it goes.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (12)
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3b. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Kelly" kpetska@mgmmirage.com kpet1218
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:26 am ((PST))

Thank you all for the awesome feedback! I feel much better about it
now. Last night he pooed for my hubby but it was dark and I didn't
have a flashlight to go inspect :) He had his serving of just meat
last night but there's a thigh bone in there for tonight. I think I'll
try searing it like was suggested - thank you.

Now I just need to find a place I can get a game hen or the breast
quarters with bone - it's hard to find any chicken with bone at
supermarket...even at the counter - apparently most of it come to them
already de-boned. The cornish hens at the supermarket come in packs of
two and they're rather expensive.

I'm in Vegas if there's anyone else here, where do you get yours? I
don't have the freezer space or really the need to order bulk.

Thanks in advance to all the great advice!

Kelly Petska

Messages in this topic (12)
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3c. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:36 am ((PST))

>
> Now I just need to find a place I can get a game hen or the breast
> quarters with bone - it's hard to find any chicken with bone at
> supermarket...even at the counter - apparently most of it come to them
> already de-boned. The cornish hens at the supermarket come in packs of
> two and they're rather expensive.
>
Hi Kelly-
Just get whole chickens and cut them into hunks! Smart & Final often has whole fryers for 77
cents a lb. Sorry I don't have any suggestions for cornish hens. They are too little for our pup.

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (12)
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3d. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 11:11 am ((PST))

"Kelly" <kpetska@...> wrote:
> Now I just need to find a place I can get a game hen or the breast
> quarters with bone - it's hard to find any chicken with bone at
> supermarket...even at the counter - apparently most of it come to
them
> already de-boned. The cornish hens at the supermarket come in
packs of
> two and they're rather expensive.
*****
I don't live in Vegas and I don't know where you've looked or how
hard, but I googled LV Yellow Pages and found 12 pages
of "supermarkets" that included Walmart, Vons, Albertson's, Whole
Foods, Trader Joe's, a slew of Asian and Latino and Middle Eastern
markets, Farmer's Markets and--unfortunately--also zillion 7-ll's so
clearly not every entry is a winner. I didn't even get to "grocers-
wholesale" or "grocery stores".

Here in Sacatomatoes I can find packages of whole dressed quail in
virtually every Asian market. They're not bargain basement priced
but they are worth it at least occasionally IMO. Cornish game hens
are great because they're just the right size for small eaters but
they're simply younger chickens so consider chicken instead and keep
your eyes open for game hen sales. Asian markets sell lots of
chicken parts as well as a large selection of pork parts and fish.

If you have access to a Grocery Outlet store, check there for less
expensive game hens, also four ounce portions of boneless wild salmon
or cod or Tilapia for 99 cents.

It should not be that difficult to find appropriate food at decent
prices but it may require leaving the areas you are most comfortable
in.

Good luck.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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4a. Re: PRAA and Mega-E
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:44 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "happy_furkids" <tracy@...> wrote:
>
> He recently had surgery to correct PRAA and has now
> been diagnosed with Mega Esophagus.

I want to emphasize that I am NOT a vet and my knowledge of this is
very limited. Mega in itself is not a nutrition problem nor will
nutrition help it in any way. Mega is usually a genetic problem but
in this case, if I understand your post correctly, MAY have been
caused by the PRAA surgery or may have been there all along and
didn't become apparent until after the surgery.

Either way, the outlook for this guy isn't good. He is not going to
get any better no matter what you do. Most breeders, when they
realize that one of thier pups has mega will go ahead and put him
down. I know a few that tried to raise them but in the end wish
they hadn't. Rarely do they make it to their first birthday.

I have never known of anyone trying to feed a mega dog a raw diet
and other than ground, I don't have a clue how you would go about
it. I know you must feed elevated and keep his head elavated for a
time after each meal.

Anyway, thats more than I know about the subject. Good luck with
this little guy. I wish I could be more encouraging. Hopefully
someone else who is more knowledgeable will post and give more
positive information.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:01 am ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> Last week,yes,I fed frog leg only one but ALONG WITH other meat
organ and fish.
*****
Yassy, is it your practice to feed organs with every meal?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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6a. rawfeeding puppy
Posted by: "bunchodogs" bunchodogs@hotmail.com bunchodogs
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:26 am ((PST))

I will be getting an 8 week old puppy in January and I am a bit
nervous about his feeding. I have been rawfeeding for about 4 years,
but my dogs were adults when I started. I don't feed my adults bone
with every meal, but they get bone every other day. Is this
sufficient for a puppy or should he have some bone everyday? I
understand the 10% bone issue, but just don't know if that means every
day or just so it "evens out" during the course of a week or so.

Linda

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: rawfeeding puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:51 am ((PST))

"bunchodogs" <bunchodogs@...> wrote:>
> I will be getting an 8 week old puppy in January and I am a bit
> nervous about his feeding.
*****
Feeding raw to a pup is big fun! You get as many as 28 meals a week to
practice with. And since these meals are small, you can't go too far
astray in any given meal. I recommend starting with something YOU are
comfortable with but to introduce new meats, textures, sizes and
flavors shortly thereafter, in bits and snatches.

I don't feed my adults bone
> with every meal, but they get bone every other day. Is this
> sufficient for a puppy or should he have some bone everyday?
*****
I don't feed bone with every meal either to my adults (I feed every
other day by and large, which means I feed a bone-in meal two or three
times a week, that's it), but I do find myself feeding more bony meals
to pups. Probably because there are just more meals involved.

When I am feeding four meals a day, two usually include bone; when I
feed three meals sometimes two contain bone and sometimes only one
does; when the pup has graduated to two meals generally only one is
bone; and when the young dog eats one meal a day I include bone every
other day. To a great extent it depends on the pup and the bone.

I don't pay all that much attention to the "10% edible bone" notion
except as a reminder that a good raw diet doesn't require much edible
bone. My guess is even when I am feeding four squares a day I rarely
hit 25% edible bone.

What kind of pup will you be getting?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: rawfeeding puppy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:54 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bunchodogs" <bunchodogs@...> wrote:
>
> I have been rawfeeding for about 4 years,
> but my dogs were adults when I started.

Feed the puppy exactly like the adults. You may or may not want to
smash the bones with a hammer or mallet the first couple of weeks.

> I don't feed my adults bone
> with every meal, but they get bone every other day. Is this
> sufficient for a puppy or should he have some bone everyday?

Feed the puppy exactly like the adults.

> I
> understand the 10% bone issue, but just don't know if that
> means every
> day or just so it "evens out" during the course of a week or so.

It means "over time". Time could be a week or a month.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: rawfeeding puppy
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:27 am ((PST))

I had my first raw fed litter a few months back...The dam to this litter
(this is the first time I`ve had this happen) would regurgitate her
food for the pups during weaning. She did this right up till the last
pup left for his new home. And the pups went nuts for this slimy pile
of food. So I let her help feed the pups cause it seemed to make her
happy :) and helped me out..lol...So these pups were getting exactly
what she was being fed. Of course I fed her as if she was still
nursing..larger portions. So the pups got bone about 3-4 times a
week..thats it...same as mom.I would still offer 4 raw meals a day(what
ever the adult dogs were getting they would get the same)but never seen
them go nuts like they did over what mom dog gave them :)These babies
were so fat and healthy,with gorgeous coats. And in the wild thats what
the wolf pack will do for it`s pups. It was a very interesting
experience.
~connie~
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. new to list - any germans out there?
Posted by: "ddgkkg2003" ddgkkg2003@yahoo.com ddgkkg2003
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

hi, im new to the list - i live in germany- was wondering if anyone
orders meat in bulk or how you obtain your meat here?

debbie
wuerzburg

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: new to list - any germans out there?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:33 am ((PST))

"ddgkkg2003" <ddgkkg2003@...> wrote:
>
> hi, im new to the list - i live in germany- was wondering if anyone
> orders meat in bulk or how you obtain your meat here?
>
> debbie
> wuerzburg
*****
I recommend you join Yahoogroups to access the Rawfeeding archives.
Use "Germany" as your search word. There are members on the list who
live in Germany but doing a message search might give you a leg up.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: new to list - any germans out there?
Posted by: "SLib700@aol.com" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 1:32 pm ((PST))

Hallo Debbie! I'm German but I live in the US. Maybe you could contact your
nearest Schlachthof, sorry but I could not remember the English word for
it,or talk to a local butcher and ask if has any tips for you! Also contact a
Forest Ranger/Foerster and he might be able to help you out with game meat.
Annette.

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8.1. Re: Help!
Posted by: "kahonebay" kahonebay@yahoo.com kahonebay
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:25 am ((PST))

Carlye,
I switched all 3 of my dogs this year at the same time and all cold turkey. The 8-year old Golden had no problems with it and loves it just as much as the 3-year old German Shepherds! Good luck, you're on the right track, and ask as many questions as you need to, this is a GREAT group!

Kris
Mom to Molly (8-year old Golden) & Grace & Tucker (3-year old German Shepherd siblings)

Carlye <reidhaven@catahouligans.com> wrote:
Another one of my dogs is a ten year old JRT, and I've read that it
isn't a good idea to switch older dogs. Should I just be leaving her
on her kibble?

Messages in this topic (45)
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9. A warning about feeding in wood chips.
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 11:37 am ((PST))

My father is a wood turner and he does his work in the basement. He
mostly turns maple and in the mornings I take the dogs down there to
eat. They have never had problems before, Skip and Sally take there
food away from the wood shavings but even if I sweep a nice big spot
for Tessa takes the food right over to the shaving pile. She always
puked up a ball of the shavings but a few days ago she had a MAJOR
allergic reaction, her lips swill up, her skin was blood red and her
joints were swollen and painful. The night before that dad had turned
some Walnut wood and she had laid in it while eating. She also started
coughing that night.
I don't know if anyone else feeds their dogs in a wood shop but I
thought I'd let you all know. You can pass the warning on.
Thank you.
Maria

Messages in this topic (1)
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10. Raw egg yolks not raw egg whites
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 12:48 pm ((PST))

I did not know one should separate them. Was informed today that raw
egg whites bond with the B's and make them unusable for dogs. I have
not yet done research myself but thought I would see what you guys have
found about raw egg whites.

Sai

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Squirrels and Rabbits
Posted by: "eclipseapbts" eclipseapbts@yahoo.com eclipseapbts
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 1:31 pm ((PST))

I got an offer from a hunter, he wants to hunt squirrels and rabbits
but doesn't want to eat them. He offered them to me. Can I safely feed
squirrel? Any specific parts they shouldn't eat? Is there a certain
period of time I should keep them frozen? Disease risks?

Thanks
Cortney

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12353

There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
From: Yasuko herron
1c. Re: Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
From: Yasuko herron

2a. Re: puppies/big dogs
From: Denise Strother

3a. Re: am I feeding enough?
From: h h
3b. Re: am I feeding enough?
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Cheryl Younesi

5a. Re: Fish and Game
From: Yasuko herron
5b. Re: Fish and Game
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Fish and Game
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: Feeding Foster Puppies
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
From: Yasuko herron
7d. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
From: Cathy

8a. Re: Just one question....
From: Erika

9a. Re: Bottom round
From: Sandee Lee

10. vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
From: killarneykateau

11a. Re: Today's finding;Turkey liver and Vitamin A
From: Yasuko herron

12. PRAA and Mega-E
From: happy_furkids

13. Ease the itching
From: sltahoek9s

Messages
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1a. Re: Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Fortune"
<desperatelyseekingsusan@...> wrote:
>
> Now I see from previous posts that most livers have LOADS of vitamin
A--way more than the dogs need. Smart pups!

I don't think liver of any kind has LOADS of vitamin A. It has some,
yes but not Loads. I also don't buy that dogs have some kind of
mystical power to know what nutrients they need and only eat that.
They eat what they can find when they are hungry with no knowledge of
what nutrients are contained in what or even what nutrients are.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:03 pm ((PST))

I posted about liver and Vitamin A early time today but I do not want to scare everybody so,I put a link you all can read about vitamin A.

Like on web, you see the beta carotin in veg turn to vitamin A in body and it adds to other vitamin A dog gets from liver or Egg etc and that is one of the reason I don't feed veg in regular meal.And those who has still question about veg or not thing,you can read and re-think about it.

If you read this article,you see that optimum IU for vitamin A is 100-200IU per kg body weight and it says up to 2-3 times of these optimum dosage,there is no ill effect is found.

To get overdose of vitamin A,you need to feed 25-50times more of this optimum IU of Vitamin A.In palette case,using maximum optimum IU 3200IU daily, I think I have to feed 25 times more IU amount equal to 4oz Turkey liver to 50 times more more amount of IU eqaul to 8oz of Turkey liver every single day for several months.

My point was,I found 1 oz of Turkey liver had such big amount with higher fat % and,I myself like to balance out the Vitamin A intake per week and that is why,ended up deciding 1/4oz Turkey liver next week.

I just did not like the idea that I keep piling up the vitamin A in palette week by week even if she could lessen it on non liver feeding days;some days,she gets 85IU only or 300IU only.I rather like to keep in optimum level dose,not overing the amount too much. It was just me,my way to approach to my dog's feeding.

It is sometimes interesting to look what we are feeding with nutritiondata.com

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/vitaminA.php

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:43 pm ((PST))

Pork liver 1oz 6062IU Beef liver 1oz 4732IU chicken liver 3102IU Turkey liver 1oz 20264IU
Lamb liver 1oz 6891IU Duck liver 1oz 11174IU

Not all liver has way lot of Vitamin A in liver considering palette needs 3200IU daily max..And these amount may not be too much for big dog. It depends on size (weight) of your dog.I feed pork liver with pork kidney and I feed half ounce each so,it gets about 3000IU from liver anyway.It was intersting to find Turkey has more fat% than Duck fat % too.

1 Turkey liver(100g) has 72372IU.Now that is 22 times more than palette's daily max.And if I fed Egg or Veg or cod liver oil etc togher.. long time,It will be dangerous I think.

All depends on dog weight and length of feeding time, to reach up the toxic zone.

Still,liver is must item in diet andgood for dogs if fed appropriate amount.Very nutrition-rich item.Don't be scared away. You just need to keep in mind how much is too much for your dog if you worry about it.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: puppies/big dogs
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:35 pm ((PST))

Hi Donna,
You don't have to start her on ground meat. I do rescue work and start
weaning on whole meats, whatever I feed the momma, the puppies get.
And a lot of my rescue pups are way smaller than your girl will be.
BTW - Yaaaa for uppity women, your in good company on this list. They
are abundant here. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, donna <heartathome@...> wrote:
Hello to all..i am new here and have found this whole subject
fascinating.
.

Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: am I feeding enough?
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 6:12 pm ((PST))

They are not puppies. My Pomeranian is 3, (11lbs) my miniature dauschund iis 2 (16lbs!) and my Yorkie (teacup) is 2 1/2. (5 lbs) I am afraid my yorkie and dauschund are not ideal weight.
~~~~~~~~~~
One easy way to get an idea of whether or not your dog is at a good weight is to use your knuckles. <g> First make a fist and feel your knuckles--if your dog's spine feels boney like that, it is too thin. Next, hold your hand flat and feel that same area, you can feel the bones in the knuckle but there if some padding there too--this is about what your dog's spine should feel like if it is at a good weight. Finally, turn your hand palm side up and feel the same area, see how you have to push a bit to actually feel the bones--if your dog's spine has this much padding, it's time for him to go on a diet.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

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Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: am I feeding enough?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:03 pm ((PST))

>One easy way to get an idea of whether or not your dog is at a good weight is to use your knuckles.

Hi.I think this is good tip for me too! I read a lot "Feel ribs" thing in list but,I did not know that you can tell if thedogs are at good weight or not with hand!!

A Hand is such a beautiful tool..

It has so many ways of use.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:03 pm ((PST))

Hi Kelly!
I'm feeding a very small 3 lb. and a larger 6 lb. The 3 lb. has no
problem at all, just dives right in. My 6 lb. is new to raw and is
taking a while to get used to is, but I have found if I sear the meat
just a tad, then the smell entices her to start rippin' and tearin'!
When I introduce something new is when I have to sear it for her. The 3
lb. has never asked to have her seared, she likes 'um raw, raw, raw!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:26 pm ((PST))

>I'm told that frogs are going to be just as poisoned as the fish

I started feeding 1 Frog leg last week,and since it was for human,I guess it was not poisonious and safe for my dog to eat it raw?

yassy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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5b. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:27 pm ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> >I'm told that frogs are going to be just as poisoned as the fish
>
> I started feeding 1 Frog leg last week,and since it was for
human,I guess it was not poisonious and safe for my dog to eat it raw?
*****
It was not poisonous. It is safe for Palette to eat. But you only fed
ONE leg to her? Tonight I gave my 10lb cat one frog leg. It took her
maybe five minutes to eat. How long did Palette take? Did she even
blink?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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5c. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:25 pm ((PST))

> you only fed ONE leg to her?

Last week,yes,I fed frog leg only one but ALONG WITH other meat organ and fish.

> How long did Palette take?

Maybe 15 minutes?? She licked,bit it spit out and stare. I even madeslit andbroke one place of bone so that shecan smell marrow(frog has marrow too,right?).

She ate 75% raw but 25%.I ended up searing the 25.After searing it,she ate it in gusto.

Next week,I try 1 leg again and slowly give more to her.

Poo-wise,she did fine with 1 frog leg.I try baby step.

Maybe smelled or tasted funny to her.I would not blame her.It is her new thing so,I be patient.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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6a. Re: Feeding Foster Puppies
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:51 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> I think you typed that before you stopped to think. Nutrition is
> what causes growth.
*****
No, I think what's happening is you and I are playing at semantics
again. I choose not to make comments (at least intentionally) that
suggest dumbing down nutrition. For example, it used to be that low
protein was recommended to "fix" pano, which meant one had to hunt
around for low protein kibble or feed carbohydrates. I believe (hope)
most people are now beyond such thinking and understand that "high"
protein does not cause pano.

It would be a mistake to reduce both quantity and quality of protein in
the diet. But one can feed less food overall: lean amounts rather then
rolypoly amounts. The percentage of protein in the diet would not be
diminished, just the quantity. And the quality of the protein would
never be reduced.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

"mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
would they be a good choice for a small dog who is reluctant to
> tackle bone in his meals, but adores wreck bones?
*****
Yup, I believe so. I mean, I don't know the details but all things
being equal I think a small dog would enjoy working on a big turkey
neck (even "just" a big hen turkey neck). But I have little
experience with small dogs, so perhaps others with direct contact
will also respond.

I think my cats would enjoy
> them, too.
*****
My cat is a power eater. All chicken parts, frog legs, pork ribs,
lamb ribs--gone. A hen turkey neck, with all its nooks and crannies,
makes her take her time. Sometimes she eats the whole thing,
sometimes she doesn't. Either way, she gets lots of meat and some
bone and a huge workout. I'd say a turkey neck is a great recreation
bone for a cat if you can get the cat to buy into the concept.

I recommend you offer them only when you can supervise the activity.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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7b. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:20 pm ((PST))

"Susan Fortune" <desperatelyseekingsusan@...> wrote:
> If you thought that your dog would try to gulp it, just hold one end
while he chews.
*****
I would strongly recommend against holding meaty bones unless one knew
absolutely that the dog was emotionally capable of eating this way.
There are two likely results of holding on. The first is the dog
refuses to eat, the second is the dog reacts more vigorously, less
sensibly, than if left to its own devices. Neither response would be
inappropriate from the dog's perspective.

If there is a chance of the dog gulping food, feed bigger food. Right
from the start.

Even before starting raw, knowing your dog is essential.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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7c. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:42 pm ((PST))

>After two months on raw, his foul breath is sweet, and his formerly gray-brown-yellow teeth are appropriately white.

Hi,Susan.My new vet was so surprised seeing palette's teeth too. her teeth is pearly white.

Previous vet waskeep calling us about appo for teeth cleaning and we told them no need because ourdog teeth is pearly white and nothing to clean off.

When we got med history for palette so that we can take her to new vet,I was surprised to read the med record stated we have no concern about teeth cleaning or other stuff like comprehensive exam that they kept saying we must drop off (we did not go there afterall for thisreason)and paper says owner refused to teeth cleaning,or something like that was on and on and if I were vet and reading whole record,I would think that the owner of palette is so careless about own dog!! Oh well,our vet now seems ok with our feeding and feel more comfortable.I said no to shots too andthe vet was fine with it.

At new vet place,we saw tri colored Corgi and red and white Corgi outside the clinic and it was funny I felt like I was looking mirror of palette for tri color Corgi.

Those dogs were so friendly and gave me sloppy kisses and I gave them good petting but boy,the hand smelled like cow burn....

I cannot believe to actually being able to compare smell and find out how odor-less my hand is after petting palette. My husband was like " Ewww.Stinks! I cannot believe how different smell our hand gets" after petting 2 Corgis.And they had doggy breath too!!

I definitely no regret feeding raw and,I like seeing palette enjoying every meal we serve.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (17)
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7d. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 4:22 am ((PST))

I have fed both hen & tom necks to my 10 lbers......they love them but do need xtra meat as they are alot of bone. They will knaw for hours on the large ones. My breed has teeth issues so I have to be very careful of the bone type.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

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8a. Re: Just one question....
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

WHERE did you get lamb of any kind for this price, and:

A. Do they have any more?

B. Do they ship?

Stock up. It will keep for a long time in the freezer, if you are
worried about feeding too much lamb at a time.

Wendy, drooling at your good fortune

LOL. Sorry Wendy I picked up the last 2 40# boxes today. They are not a place that shipps anyway, only drive through lol.

Call your local restaurant supply stores sometimes people order stuff and then don't pick it up. Then they sell it to us cheap!

Erika

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Messages in this topic (9)
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9a. Re: Bottom round
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:09 pm ((PST))

No need to go to all that work slicing these wonderful roasts...hand them a
nice large chunk! What a great meal!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sai Simonson" <saiczarina@comcast.net>

> Dog are becoming worshipful. When I open the door, they begin bowing
> and wagging. What wonderful foods have you brought us???? I gave them
> small slices of "steaks" after the morning eggs. WOW! Really?
> When at the natural food store today I noticed that their bottom round
> roasts were the same price as the stuff at Winco. Still spendy at
> $2.99/lb but hey, free range and grass fed. So, there is more to slice
> up in a few minutes. TG for the electric knife.

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10. vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
Posted by: "killarneykateau" catherin@vicnet.net.au killarneykateau
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:26 pm ((PST))

+++++++mod note - sign emails plse ++++++++++

I fed my 15 kilo dog a rabbit leg today, human grade meat, and she vomited it up half an
hour later. She usually eats lamb shanks, chicken carcasses, chicken necks, some fish. Should
I try some rabbit again? (I have the rest of the rabbit in the fridge.) Are some dogs allergic to
rabbit? She can't seem to tolerate kangaroo.

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Today's finding;Turkey liver and Vitamin A
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:52 pm ((PST))

>All that measuring and worrying about details will wear you down..

Hi,Catherine. I would not measure if I were not trying to shed a couple of lb from her..
Since she has long back,weight is something I need to keep an eye on it. I like herto be at non-burden weight for back.

And,my pantry thing at data.com is not really an exact.Roughly around number i come up with with the web. Because some are not be found there.That is ok. I am not trying to be very precise of each of everytihng.I rather like to know rough idea of what i am feeding to her andsee howit works for her.That is all.

Feeding liver with Vitamin A is not my major thing. Just a thing to keep in mind. I look at is fat% in items I feed and kcal I feed. Again,if I were not trying to get her loose weight,I would not care on numbers,but since she gained 5lb after switching to raw,I thought that would be needed for now.

I feed liver so far 3 times per week in average and I feed chicken liver,Beefliver/kidney,Pork liver/pork kidney,but I wasgoing to try switch chicken liver with Turkey liver because chicken liver is out next week.

yassy

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12. PRAA and Mega-E
Posted by: "happy_furkids" tracy@alumnae.mills.edu happy_furkids
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 4:22 am ((PST))

Hi All,

I'm de-lurking to get some advice about a foster dog.

Owen Meany is a pit bull/boxer, about 8-9 months old but he is very
small/skinny. He recently had surgery to correct PRAA and has now
been diagnosed with Mega Esophagus.

We'd really like to get Owen some fabulous raw nutrition to make up
for the months that he was not getting adequate nutrition.

We also think that his trachea was affected and perhaps his eyesight
since it isn't great at night.

He so far can eat elevated "milkshake" type meals. He was getting
canned puppy food previously butI'd prefer to get him on raw.

I do have a grind for a previous foster health case that's veggies,
turkey, liver, eggs, salmon oil that I could re-grind but I'd like
to see if I can either get some bone in him. OR do folks generally
feed mega-e dogs grinds and such.

Any and all advice, stories, links, etc welcome.

If it's off-topic for this list, please feel free to off-list me.
I'm also interestfd in hearing about any supplements folks may have
knowledge about for his thachea/breathing and to promote eye
function.

Thanks,

Tracy in Oakland

see Owen at www.gratefuldogsrescue.com

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13. Ease the itching
Posted by: "sltahoek9s" crazy4k9@aol.com sltahoek9s
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 4:22 am ((PST))

Hi again all,
Trying not to sound too needy or alarmist, but only a month into raw. My 4 year old GSD
has gotten a lot itchier lately. He is also shedding by the bucket load (of course they are
commonly called german shedders). Before the switch I suspected a chicken or poultry
allergy. He has pretty much always been itchy to certain degrees but I dont allow him to
chew enough to break out or hot spot. I started him on pork for a while and then added
mackerel and rabbit. Around Thanksgiving I took a risk and gave him turkey. Then I
accidentaly handed him my labs chicken instead of his turkey one night so he's now had
chicken too. The itching didn't seem to be any worse until the last week. Now its pretty
bad. He is scratching and chewing at his back end and legs. He hasn't been vaccinated
for a while, except bordatella a year ago. In fact I just got the vet's reminder today for
rabies. Not sure what to do about that one yet since I'm a trainer and he's in public all the
time.

Is his system just compromised a little? Should I just give him some more time and see
what happens or should I cut out the poultry again? Any suggestions to ease the itching?
He hasn't had much organ meat yet, so i'm not sure if that has anything to do with it. The
only organs he has had are what have come with the chickens, turkeys, rabbits and the
whole mackerel. I know the archives state the dogs don't usually have allergies to raw
meats, but i'm not sure what else it would be. The meats are not organic (can't afford) but
i've checked that they aren't enhanced.

Thanks for any advice,

Tammy C

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