Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 4, 2007

Wednesday, July 4, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11762

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Doguefan@aol.com
1b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: costrowski75

2. Re: repro vet's advice
From: Michael Moore

3a. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: Beef..
From: Chrissy
4b. Re: Beef..
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: tottime47
5c. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: WAGC
5d. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Anndrea
5e. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Anndrea
5f. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Anndrea
5g. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: carnesbill
5h. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: bluegracepwd
5i. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Sandee Lee

6a. ADMIN/Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Chicken frames
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Tuna
From: geraldinebutterfield
8b. Re: Tuna
From: Patrice Quinn
8c. Re: Tuna
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: deworming
From: tottime47

10a. Re: dead chicken carcass question
From: Bearhair

11a. ADMIN/Re: deworming
From: costrowski75

12. Sick puppy update
From: chamelett2003

13. won't eat bones
From: Linda Edgington

Messages
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1a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:33 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

thanks? Carrie!

-----Original Message-----
From: cypressbunny <cypressbunny@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:59 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> p.s.? I found in the archives that tripe has a great ratio of
calcium:phosphorous

*** Forget about the stupid calcium phosphorus ratio. Worrying about
that and trying to "fix it" is what causes pano, eclampsia, etc. Do
not give puppy kibble or extra calcium to the pregnant bitch! Listen
to Cathy on that one, not Karen. Cathy explained it well.

*** And yes, tripe has a ca:phos ratio of 1:1. Big deal, since it
doesn't have a lot of either one.

*** The further you stray from nature's model the more likely it is
you will have problems. Tripe is an excellent part of a good raw diet,
not because it has a good ratio but because it comes inside a prey
animal.

--Carrie

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 2:23 pm ((PDT))

"merril Woolf" <merril@...> wrote:
> I feed a huge amount of variety, don't supplement and have pups
born healthy and shiny
> (everyone always comments on how shiny my pups are) and they are
raised on the same
> foods as the adults and grow normally. NO pano, no ...whatever.
Just strong healthy
> dogs. BTW, they are working dogs so I know they don't suffer
from any food related
> problems.
>
> Feed variety. Make it your purpose in life to seek out a variety
of food sources for your
> dog/s. Think whole prey where possible. Where that's not
possible, think ethnic markets,
> think fish markets, think rancher friends. Start prowling markets
in odd places. Talk to
> butchers. Go online and see if you can find a breeder of rabbits
or a goat or sheep
> breeder who'll give you their old or young culls. Get creative.
*****
Merril, you are the best.
You're the top!
You're the Coliseum!

Thank you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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2. Re: repro vet's advice
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

>>She told me if I could not tell her the calcium-phosphorous ratio of what I am feeding then I should not be feeding it to any dogs whos bone plates had not fully developed(fused) and surely not a pregnant bitch. She said I am going to cause all sorts of bone issues including pano, OCD, and a bunch more she told me. She also said I could harm the fetuses.? Now, I am scared to death.<<

Frankly, I think your "fantastic" repro vet wanted you to be exactly this -- scared to death. I also don't think she's fantastic after reading that.
Our past two litters have come from rawfed bitches. Our current, 10 wks. old litter of *nine* Pembroke Welsh Corgis (average litter size 6) were weaned to raw. Granted, they are not particularly subject to pano, but I can tell you that they are healthy, with incredibly shiny coats and are growing quite nicely. They are a little smaller overall than my previous k-fed litters, but I think that makes perfect sense, as they aren't getting any artificial growth stimulants.
Nature doesn't make mistakes; if the calcium/phosphorous ratio of prey model wasn't "right" for wolves, the species would have died out long, long ago. Our "house wolves" thrive on a raw diet.
Please ignore this vet, use your reasoning power and realize that, on this subject, she's flat out wrong.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:50 am ((PDT))

Break that food allowance down into more meals per day. Feeding too much at
one time can cause loose stools...a six month old puppy is too young to be
eating once a day. You also need to get some variety in this diet.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ptrsrgnt" <ptrsrgnt@yahoo.ca>

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Beef..
Posted by: "Chrissy" hylesrayburn@sbcglobal.net tresuregarden
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

yep foods co! They have the big chunks of roast, I was thinking that even with a bone it was a good deal. I do try to stay at or under $1. but this is a heck of a deal, I think that I will go early in the day and get some that way I have time to de-bone the meat before I put it in the freezer.

Thanks
Chrissy
----- Original Message -----
From: costrowski75

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Chrissy" <hylesrayburn@...> wrote:
>
> Ok I got the sales add today, it is for beef chuck steaks or roast,
blade or center cut for $1.27lb. Now these with the bones should be
deboned before giving to the dogs?
*****
Hoo ha! The ad flyer from FoodsCo here in Sacatomatoes has the same
deal. A good deal it is, too. I always debone these cuts--they're
sliced thin which produces bones that look like daggers. It's my
preference to get boneless chuck roasts, but heck, it's hard to say no
to beef for $1.27/lb.
Chris O

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: Beef..
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

"Chrissy" <hylesrayburn@...> wrote:
>I was thinking that even with a bone it was a good deal. I do try to
stay at or under $1. but this is a heck of a deal,
*****
My goal is a buck a pound on average; so the cheaper I can go with some
things (chicken/pork/freezer burn rejects), the more I free up for the
high-price spread like beef and lamb and goat.

While you're at FoodsCo, see if they still have minimally processed rib-
in split chicken breasts for .87/lb. Nearly fell over when I saw those
a few days ago...the sale might be history though.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:18 pm ((PDT))

Backs and wings are far too bony unless fed with additional meat. Meat is
the primary portion of a raw diet...up to 80% with only 10% edible bone and
10% organs. Rabbit is not the main menu of a wolf, but when consumed in
it's entirety, consists of only around 9% bone. When cleaned and processed,
the ratio goes up but still isn't close to being mostly bone.

Pumpkin is not a fix nor are vegetables....neither are necessary or species
appropriate.

I do agree they will poop less and need some bone, but very little!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cheryl4fresians" <cheryl4fresians@yahoo.com>

Just feeding MEAT may be the problem. Try chicken back and wings
WITH THE BONE. Raw bones are good for them. NOT COOKED BONES.

Just feeding meat is like sending a glob down to their stomach. Its
OK to feed meat sometimes by itself, but 60-80% of their meal should
be raw meaty bones ... meat and consumable bones. I also hear canned
pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling) will help them out with either
constipation or diarrhea. Also, they WILL definitely poop ALOT LESS
when eating raw because they assimilate the nutrients rather than
pooping them out. Try blending some vegees, romaine lettuce,
carrots, celery, parsley, garlic into a paste and feeding it.

When feeding raw ... here's the key. In the wild, they would eat
normally a rabbit. A rabbit is mostly bones, lesser meat, small
organs, and stomach lining and whatever is in the rabbit's stomach,
small portion of vegees. That is how you should feed your dog. Go
the websites and do research. I think your dog needs more bone to
help the meat to digest.

Messages in this topic (14)
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5b. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:

> Shelby (just under 50lbs, female, unspayed, American Bulldog/Pit
Bull
> Terrier) has not pooped since we started (we are on day 3).

> Any suggestions? Maybe I am not feeding her enough?
>
> Thanks, anndrea (with 2 n's) and her crew

Hi Anndrea,

My dog went 5 days when he 1st started.

Some said that the dog was using up everything I was feeding him.
That's probably true........but I was really worried.......finally
someone on the list
suggested feeding him organ meats.....Up until then he had
just gotten a smidgen of them......as we were trying to go slow.

I gave him what seemed to me an overdose, but he seemed to want them.
Next morning, 2 pudding style poops.........

Guess it worked, lol.......

If she's showing no signs of discomfort, you probably don't have
anything to worry about......

Carol & Charkee

Messages in this topic (14)
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5c. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "WAGC" wagc@sasktel.net frustrated_tracey
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

+++++++++Mod note: signature removed by mod ++++++++++++

Quick question on this answer

"When feeding raw ... here's the key. In the wild, they would eat
normally a rabbit. A rabbit is mostly bones, lesser meat, small
organs, and stomach lining and whatever is in the rabbit's stomach,
small portion of vegees. That is how you should feed your dog. Go
the websites and do research. I think your dog needs more bone to
help the meat to digest."

So A couple of kids around here shot a jack rabbit and a couple of gophers
I plan on keeping them in the freezer for about a week, My question when I feed these
critters to my pups do I just throw the whole thing in the yard and let them go at it or should
skin them or do anything else first. Or maybe I should wait until they are older? they are about
11-12 weeks,

thanks in advance

Tracey

Messages in this topic (14)
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5d. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Anndrea" anndreae@yahoo.com anndreae
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

> Go s-l-o-w!

In switching over or in adding things?

> 2-4% is generally recommended as a feeding amount guideline, so a 50
pounder
> should be fed, depending on her activity and metabolism, at least 1
pound of
> raw per day.

Well Shelby isn't very active (though today we have confirmed she is
in heat, does that matter for feeding?). I want her to gain a few
pounds as she looks a little lean. You can see a silhouette of her
ribs, but just barely. She has been getting about a pound a day split
in two meals. Right now it has been ground beef/hamburger (organic,
but only because it was free).

> >Chico (75lbs, male, neutered, Yellow Lab/Pit/possible Sharpei)

> 1.5 pounds for him.

He has been getting closer to two pounds. I may need to cut him back a
little. He hasn't put on any weight but we are still just beginning.
He is only slightly more active than the others. He may be leaving us
soon for a foster home, and hopefully, eventually an adoptive
placement, so I won't know what he is eating then, but I can hope they
are raw feeders.

> >Holly (55lbs, female, spayed, black lab/mutt)

> 1 pound for her.

She has been getting about that.

> Bowel tolerance is very dog-specific. Did Holly get a more fatty
piece, did
> Shelby get a smaller piece, . . . all of these factors can easily
explain
> the differences in poop that you're seeing.

She gets a smaller piece than both the other dogs, but not by much.
They are all eating the same hamburger/ground beef (organic) right now.

> Tell us more about exactly what you're feeding.

Well, like I said, at the moment it is ground organic beef. I don't
have much that has bones in it, but am going to that a big pack of
ribs for tomorrow so they get some bones. I am just worried about them
choking or swallowing whole bones. They are all gulpers (Chico is the
least of a gulper, Shelby is the fastest, with Holly in the middle). I
have a t-bone or two, and some venison but I don't think the venison
has any bones, and I am not sure exactly what is in there as I got
them from someone else, and they are marked like "Venison B.S." and
other initials after the "Venison". They are not very big packages,
though, maybe a pound each.

Would the consistency of boneless meat matter? Like a steak as opposed
to ground hamburger? Or does it only matter between bones and no bones?

They also get fish oil gelcaps and doggy multivitamins every day.
Which, by the way, I am guessing is why Chico has HORRIBLE
fish-breath? Or could that be something else? Sometimes the girls chew
the gelcaps, but not Chico.

Thanks,
anndrea and her crew

Messages in this topic (14)
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5e. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Anndrea" anndreae@yahoo.com anndreae
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

> Just feeding MEAT may be the problem. Try chicken back and wings
> WITH THE BONE. Raw bones are good for them. NOT COOKED BONES.

Oh I know better than cooked bones, now :-)
I saw chicken leg quarters on sale starting tomorrow, would they have
enough bone in them? Once we get moved, I have a great source for
chicken backs at 55 cents a pound (that IS a good price, right?). Plus
I will be getting a lot of other things from him like beef and pork
necks and lots of meats and RMBs.

> Just feeding meat is like sending a glob down to their stomach. Its
> OK to feed meat sometimes by itself, but 60-80% of their meal should
> be raw meaty bones ... meat and consumable bones. I also hear canned
> pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling) will help them out with either
> constipation or diarrhea. Also, they WILL definitely poop ALOT LESS
> when eating raw because they assimilate the nutrients rather than
> pooping them out. Try blending some vegees, romaine lettuce,
> carrots, celery, parsley, garlic into a paste and feeding it.

I don't do the veggies thing. Just my thing. I may try tripe
eventually, but right now I don't want to do the veggies. I will try
the pumpkin, though for the diarrhea dog.

> When feeding raw ... here's the key. In the wild, they would eat
> normally a rabbit. A rabbit is mostly bones, lesser meat, small
> organs, and stomach lining and whatever is in the rabbit's stomach,
> small portion of vegees. That is how you should feed your dog. Go
> the websites and do research. I think your dog needs more bone to
> help the meat to digest.

Well, like I said, I'm not doing veggies at this point. I want to do
prey model once we get moved, but it isn't feasible right now.

I thought it was lots of meat some bones some organs? Rabbits should
be that way, shouldn't they?

Well, Shelby finally pooped last night and it was fairly normal, solid
poop with long stringy things in it. She scooted her butt on the
ground one time a few days ago for like 3 seconds and hasn't done it
since, but is bleeding from being in heat now (just started today). I
wonder if the hormones from heat could be effecting her digestion?

thanks,
anndrea and her crew

Messages in this topic (14)
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5f. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Anndrea" anndreae@yahoo.com anndreae
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

> I'm sure he has. You have fed him nothing to stop him up. Like you
> said, he could have pooped and eaten it. Wouldn't necessarily been
> any residue and you wouldn't notice.

I can see that. (Sorry, it is my neurotic-ness showing through
here...Shelby is a "she")

> > Holly (55lbs, female, spayed, black lab/mutt) has had diarrhea.

> Probably because of the amount of fat in ground beef. Having
> digestive upset is not unusual in newly switched dogs particularly
> if there is no bone in the diet, even more particularly if there is
> a lot of fat.

That is totally possible. I have heard organic has less fat, but it
doesn't LOOK like it has less. It has a lot of yellowish white bits
(yellow from being organic, I've been told), but some of those didn't
melt away when my husband cooked some of it for himself, so what could
those be if not fat? It's texture is like store bought, for the most
part, but store bought has a lot of fat that melts when you cook it.
This doesn't do that...hardly any of it melts when you cook it.

> I think you need to do some research. Check out my web page at
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding -- Read the book "Work Wonders"
> by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at
> http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF format
> for free at the same location.

I have downloaded the books from there, just haven't gotten a chance
to read them. I tried to check out the skylarzack site, but it said it
wasn't available at the time. I will try again later. I have actually
done a lot of research before even deciding to try raw feeding. I know
I don't know a lot yet, but I know about the amounts of bones, organs,
and meat, I am just a little stuck at the moment on what I have to
feed until after we move this weekend.

> A few informative web sites are:
> http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
> http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
> http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

I have checked these out, too.

thanks,
anndrea and her crew

Messages in this topic (14)
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5g. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, WAGC <wagc@...> wrote:
>
> when I feed these
> critters to my pups do I just throw the whole thing in the yard
> and let them go at it or should
> skin them or do anything else first.

I think wait until they are a little older THEN ideally you could
just throw the cacasses out in the yard and let them go at it,
however, the first couple of animals you do that with, you may have
to slit open the stomach or partially skin them or skin them all the
way to help the dog know that this is real food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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5h. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 3:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi Tracey,

whenever I can get my hands on fresh whole rabbit, it goes straight to
my pups. I've given 5 week old pups a whole fresh rabbit before. I
do slit it down the middle so they can get through to the flesh, but
they love it.

I've got pictures of giving my pups whole calf. They were "dressed"
which means, no skin or guts, but I just put it down and let the pups
get used to whole or nearly whole prey. check out the pics here at
the bottom of this page:

http://www.bluegrace.com/rawpwd.html

cheers,

Jane

Messages in this topic (14)
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5i. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

Anndrea,

Hindquarters have more than enough bone...remember the overall goal is
around 10% edible bone. Hindquarters are probably closer to 25%, backs are
much higher. .55/lb is pretty cheap. but you get what you pay for!! :) As
bony as they are, you will have to add more meat!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Anndrea" <anndreae@yahoo.com>
I saw chicken leg quarters on sale starting tomorrow, would they have
enough bone in them? Once we get moved, I have a great source for
chicken backs at 55 cents a pound (that IS a good price, right?). Plus
I will be getting a lot of other things from him like beef and pork
necks and lots of meats and RMBs.

Messages in this topic (14)
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6a. ADMIN/Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))

Just so everyone knows, this person unsubbed from the list nine minutes
after she posted her interesting dietary comments.

[This is an automated email message to let you know that
cheryl4fresians <cheryl4fresians@yahoo.com> unsubscribed from your
rawfeeding
group.]

Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (14)
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7a. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:43 pm ((PDT))

Shannon Parker <mrbatisse@...> wrote:
By chicken frames we are talking the breast bone, ribs and cartilage,
correct?? I just want to make sure I'm on the same page here...
*****
Yup, I think so.

I get Chicken frames from an organic source and they are not just
bone. They are covered in at least 50% meat, have lots of cartilage
and about 20% bone.
*****
I frankly can't see how that is physically possible but I know that
Bill C. feeds meaty backs that are also physically impossible so maybe
I am just living in the wrong part of the world.

If it works for you and more importantly your dog, by all means go for
it!
Chris O

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8a. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

My husband does a lot of fishing so I'm lucky to have all sorts of
fish like tuna, halibut, to salmon...and I can my own (you don't need
oil or water to can it, not sure why it's in the store bought stuff).
My dog likes it cooked, but I may try just searing the tuna.
thanks,
geraldine

> > large box of canned tuna of all kinds and I was wondering if it
was
> OK to
> > give them some of it, and if so, how much?
> ******************************
> Still got the mercury to deal with....
> It's okay in the same proportion you'd feed it to a child or
pregnant
> woman...>
> Try to stick to the water-pack variety; leave the oil pack and other
> fancy treatments for human consumption.
> Chris Ostrowski
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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8b. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "Patrice Quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 2:37 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM AND SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Chris, would freezing the raw tuna remove any of the danger of the mercury
content? I doubt it but wanted to ask. Also, do you always defrost what
you feed or do you ever feed frozen or semi-frozen? Thanks! Patrice Quinn

-------Original Message-------

From: geraldinebutterfield
Date: 7/4/2007 12:49:55 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Tuna

My husband does a lot of fishing so I'm lucky to have all sorts of
fish like tuna, halibut, to salmon...and I can my own (you don't need
oil or water to can it, not sure why it's in the store bought stuff).
My dog likes it cooked, but I may try just searing the tuna.
thanks,
geraldine

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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8c. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

"Patrice Quinn" <patrice@...> wrote:
> Chris, would freezing the raw tuna remove any of the danger of the
mercury
> content? I doubt it but wanted to ask.
*****
It will not and you doubt correctly.

Also, do you always defrost what
> you feed or do you ever feed frozen or semi-frozen?
*****
Do *I*? I most always feed at room temperature. If it's semi-frozen
it's generally by accident.

Chris O

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9a. Re: deworming
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@...>
wrote:
>
> is deworming more neccessary on a raw diet, do you need to do it more
> than once a year?
> Tamara

Hi Tamara,

I just take a stool sample into the vets about every 3 to 4 months for
a check..so far my dog has never had worms or a worming.....he's 9 yrs
old......

I don't think it's a good ideal to worm your dog unless you're sure he
has worms and what kind........I think they have different medicines to
use for different kinds of worms........maybe they don't....as I said
mine is lucky there......

Carol & Charkee

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10a. Re: dead chicken carcass question
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:50 pm ((PDT))

Brenda Dumesnil wrote:

>we have a small chicken farm that we raise for meat. we also raw feed
>our dogs of cours. I am wondering somtimes meat birds suddenly die of
>heart attacks ect... now , I have been throwing them away. but it
>seems like such a waist. would it be safe to give to the dogs if it's
>already dead??? The ones we give to our dogs had been killed by us.

If you are certain of the cause of death and it was not due to anything that
could be dangerous to your dog, then I think it would be a suitable tribute
to that bird to have it be wholly consumed by the predators of the family.

Damn, I am on a roll today!

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. ADMIN/Re: deworming
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 2:32 pm ((PDT))

Time, I think, for this topic to move to RawChat, where such issues can
be discussed to whatever length or detail necessary. Further postings
on rawfeeding will be mis-managed.

Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. Sick puppy update
Posted by: "chamelett2003" chamelett2003@yahoo.com chamelett2003
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 2:39 pm ((PDT))

Lily the skinny(was 5lb) Chihuahua has her energy back, playful and
affectionate. She is eating raw chicken (human grade free range bla bla
bla). Her stools are dark and gooey without eating any liver. she is
still on amoxicillin, sleppery Elm and reglan. Should I be worried
about her sools. don't know for sure if it is blood. Like black tarry
stools in humans means GI bleed.
Jill

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. won't eat bones
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 4:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi!

Both cat and dog will not eat anything with bones in it. I have been just feeding chicken breasts, but they won't eat anything with bones in it. I have tryed pounding the bones but still no good. I started with Giz at hand feeding chunks so he wouldn't woof everything down and now he thinks that is the way he is going to eat. I don't have time for that. Frustrating~! So now what? Linda

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11761

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
From: jeff wissler
2b. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
From: Jane Boswell

3a. Re: Chicken frames
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: Chicken frames
From: Shannon Parker
3c. Re: Chicken frames
From: carnesbill
3d. Re: Chicken frames
From: Jenna Mahoney

4.1. ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Tuna
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: Tuna
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Doguefan@aol.com
6b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Bearhair
6c. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Karen Swanay
6d. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: costrowski75
6e. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: merril Woolf
6f. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: cypressbunny
6g. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Doguefan@aol.com

7a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: cheryl4fresians
7b. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Bearhair

8a. Runny Poops ----- HELP
From: ptrsrgnt
8b. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
From: carnesbill

9. dead chicken carcass question
From: vonbrendenrotts

10a. Re: licking but not eating.
From: Nathalie Poulin

11a. Re: deworming
From: tamarabajema

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "admiralsagilitydogs"
<admiralsagilitydogs@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, im new to feeding the Raw diet, we are doing the
> Natures Menu version. (www.naturesmenu.co.uk)

Sophie,
Their diet sounds a lot more complicated that it need be. You
should do a little research. Check out my web site at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm for my suggestions of
beginning a raw diet.

Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it
at http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF
format for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT))

"admiralsagilitydogs" <admiralsagilitydogs@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, im new to feeding the Raw diet, we are doing the Natures
Menu
> version. (www.naturesmenu.co.uk)
*****
Paying dearly for someone else to make (wrong) nutritional decisions
for your dog simply makes no sense.

> On the Natures Munu site it recommends to feed, raw meat liquidised
> vegetables/fruit and add raw bones twice a week and chicken wings
> twice a week, too add a vitimin supplment, and heart/liver/kidney
once
> a week. We also add sardines and wisked egg.
*****
Yes, well this company is not only charging you dearly for their
product, it's not even a "complete" product and you must still on top
of their prefabricated foodlike substance supplement add fresh food.
Since the fresh meat, bones and organs are what drive a good raw
diet, you can safely and quite properly junk the Nature's Menu and
cut to the chase.

Given that the product requires the addition of raw meat, raw bones,
chicken wings, a vitamin and organs, WHAT EXACTLY are you paying
for? Do you know the tale of "Stone Soup"? That, my friend, is what
you have purchased.

Get rid of the Nature's Menu. Please. Quickly. Forget about
liquidised vegetables, forget about the vitamin supplement. Forget
about "raw bones" unless they are swaddled in meat. Focus on whole
meats (whatever's available--variety is our friend), meaty body parts
that include edible bone (chicken, lamb, rabbit, whole fish, pork if
you can get it. Continue buying the heart/liver/kidney, although for
our purposes heart is fed as muscle meat, not organ.

Use as a good beginning feeding guideline 2%-3% of your dog's ideal
adult weight, daily; and think in terms of 80% meat, 10% edible bone;
10% organ, of which as much as half can be liver.

Whatever ingredients are in Nature's Menu, they are either irrelevant
to a dog or they entirely duplicate what you will provide by feeding
raw meats, edible bones and organs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
Posted by: "jeff wissler" wisslewj@yahoo.com wisslewj
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:16 am ((PDT))

Chris,

Thanks. I am still waiting to see if it comes out
this morning lol. He ate it late last night. I
assumed it was no biggy but I wasn't sure if seashell
was digestible or not. My main concern was the
pointedness of it.

We shall see. :)

Thanks
Jeff

____________________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
Posted by: "Jane Boswell" famtimes@blazenetme.net famtimes2001
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

My dogs - 2 Belgian sheepdogs - one is 12 months, the
other is 5 y.o. - eat seashells regularly as we go to the
ocean several times a week for long runs. The youngest
loves to eat the crabs at low tide too. He steals them
from the seagulls and so they are fresh. He has never had a problem.
I bring fresh water along and they drink that and not the sea water.
(for those worried about sodium/minerals). He also likes to
nibble on seaweed.

Jane in Maine

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@...>
wrote:
>
> What exactly do you get when you order a chicken frame?
*****
Bones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:45 am ((PDT))

Hi Chris,
I think I have to interject here. By chicken frames we are talking the breast bone, ribs and cartilage, correct?? I just want to make sure I'm on the same page here...

I get Chicken frames from an organic source and they are not just bone. They are covered in at least 50% meat, have lots of cartilage and about 20% bone. I know that they are not all like that, but the source I have is...and I suspect others are. I think you just have to be very careful when you source them out. As well, I get them at $1/lb which in my neck of the woods is a great price.

I obviously don't just feed frames, but add lots of meat to it. I am happy with the meatiness of them though....they blow chicken backs and necks out of the water!

Thanks,

Shannon

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
*****
Bones.
Chris O

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Shannon Parker <mrbatisse@...>
wrote:
>
> I get Chicken frames from an organic source and they are
> not just bone. They are covered in at least 50% meat, have
> lots of cartilage and about 20% bone.

I'm not Chris, but it never stopped me from answering questions
directed to her before. :) I think what you are buying is known
here as bone-in breast.

> As well, I get them at $1/lb which in my neck of the woods is
> a great price.

The few times I bought frames, I paid $0.14/lb for them. I doubt
seriously they are the same thing you are talking about.

> I obviously don't just feed frames, but add lots of meat to
> it. I am happy with the meatiness of them though....they
> blow chicken backs and necks out of the water!

The frames we talk about here are backs with ribs and breastbone
attached. Actually the whole body skeleton is included. There
really is not a lot of meat involved.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:44 am ((PDT))

That what I thought- so it is mostly bone and I should add more meat?

Bill- by the way- I read and loved your raw feeding 101. It was very
clear, detailed, and great for newbies. Thank you!!!
Jenna

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@>
> wrote:
> >
> > What exactly do you get when you order a chicken frame?
> > Jenna
>
> You get the chicken body after wings, neck/head, legs/thighs, and the
> human usuable breast meat has been removed.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4.1. ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

"Patrice Quinn" <patrice@...> wrote:
>
> Chris, I'm sorry if I've done something inappropriate here in the
forum.
*****
You did not. The topic was haring off into the weeds. We don't need
that here. RawChat has a bigger yard to play in.

Post message: rawchat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawchat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: rawchat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Chris O

Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> I read that raw salmon is ok for dogs if it's been frozen for a
period
> of time. How about fresh raw tuna? Do I need to freeze this first too
> or can I give it fresh never frozen?
*****
When you seek information about feeding raw salmon, you must at the
very least read the whole story. If you are referring to wild caught
salmon from the Pacific Northwest, you should freeze it for a week or
two to kill parasites. This also applies to PNW trout and steelhead.
Wild caught salmon from the Arctic Ocean or Bering Sea is free of these
parasites, but populations are being fished out.

If you are referring to farmed salmon, whether it comes from the US,
Canada or Chile you do not have to prefreeze it (actually in most cases
you would be REfreezing).

If you don't know the difference between salmon from the Pacific
Northwest and farmed salmon, continue your fish education. Here are
some links that may be of interest:
http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/Atlantic_salmon
http://www.puresalmon.org/
http://www.webmd.com/news/20060629/is-that-wild-salmon-really-wild

http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=bestandworst
http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html
http://www.uga.edu/seafood/SafeSeafood.htm

Tuna may have dangerous mercury levels (or not--research results and
interpretations vary) and may be fished inappropriately (or not) but
it's not going to present the parasites PNW salmonids do. You can feed
it raw if you want to; whether or not you feed tuna at all is your
choice.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Hi.My understanding is that no raw salmon and raw Trout from
north pacific area ;from Alaska to CA area,is not good to feed for
salmon poisoning while you can give the raw salmon from chile or
something.
*****
North Pacific is fine as long as it's north all the way to the
Arctic. Anything from southern Alaska south to the mid-California
coast IF IT IS WILD CAUGHT offers the chance of rickettsia
infestation. Freeze first or don't feed.

Chilean salmon is all of it farmed, off the coast. It is arguably
the least polluted of our farmed salmon choices, the others being US
farmed and Canadian farmed. But freezing won't remove pollutants and
there are no parasites, so feeding "fresh" from the market is fine.

> For tuna,I understad as never feed it to dog due high Mercury. I
love Raw Tuna;Sashimi,but not to dog.
*****
There is increasing arguemenht that the FDA warnings about mercury
levels are overstated; however one feels about raw tuna if you are
comfortable eating sashimi, you can feed it to your dog.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:18 am ((PDT))

Thank you Katherine, and Karen. These posts have been so helpful and reassuring.? I am going to do my best.?

Chelsea

p.s.? I found in the archives that tripe has a great ratio of calcium:phosphorous

-----Original Message-----
From: Cathy <camahr@charter.net>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 7:52 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> Hi guys!? I have written to the rawbreeder list too, but I have
gotten so many different opinions on what to do.? My female was bred
surgically Monday with forzen semen.? I have a fantastic repo vet
that breeds danes and supplements her kibble with raw(no bone).? She
told me if I could not tell her the calcium-phosphorous ratio of what
I am feeding then I should not be feeding it to any dogs whos bone
plates had not fully developed(fused) and surely not a pregnant
bitch.? She said I am going to cause all sorts of bone issues
including pano, OCD, and a bunch more she told me.? She also said I
could harm the fetuses.? Now, I am scared to death.?

First things first! Take a deep breath, breath out, relax. Ask
yourself this question, can parents of any teenage boy tell you the
calcium/phophorus ratio of what he is eating? Can the average
pregnant woman tell you the calcium/phosphorus ratio of every meal
she eats? Well I sure couldn't and I've given birth to 2 sons who
are now healthy grown men. I have also bred and raised Chessapeake
Bay Retrievers for the last 10 years. We have been feeding raw for
nearly 11 years.

Guidelines for feeding your pregnant bitch are really not all that
different from her non pregnant state for the first month. Variety,
meat, organ, and bone just as you have been feeding. In the second
month of pregancy she will gradually increase her intake. Organ
meats, liver especially are a good source of B vitamins and must be
available to your pregnant bitch.

In the last month of preganancy do not increase the amount of bone,
rather give her normal pre pregnancy amounts. And after delivery
then increase the amount of bone slightly to help with milk
production.

Your bitches body, can and should metabolize and move calcium from
her bones into her blood stream to meet her calcium needs. The on
set of lactation brings on an extreme need for calcium, which her
body metabolizes from her bones. This need for calcium can not
immediately be met by diet so her body must be ready to meet this
need. If the bitch is supplemented with high levels of calcium
during pregnancy, or her bone intake is increased too far, her body
is not metabolically primed to mobilize calcium from her bones.
Therefore, when the demands for calcium are suddenly and dramatically
elevated at the initiation of lactation, she is unable to keep up
with the metabolic demands, which can result in serious health
complications.

We are 3rd generation raw fed Chessies now. Litter sizes have been
large 10 to 13 puppies per litter. Mom nurses them for 8 to 12 weeks
and Mom gains weight while nursing. Puppies are introduced to large
pieces of raw meety bones starting at 4 weeks of age.

Cathy M.
Retrievers Etc.

________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

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Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:18 am ((PDT))

Karen wrote:

>Wow, that vet is a PRO at scare tactics!! Let me tell you a couple of
>things...
>
>1.) Pano is primarily seen in male GSDs. . . . (Bad
>vet for telling you that...I'd have ripped her head clean off from that
>one.)
>
>2.) People have been breeding dogs for thousands of years on scraps and
>dead animals. . . . Shame on your vet for telling you those things. Dogs
>have been mating and whelping pups since the dawn of time without Hills
>there to make sure the litter was healthy.
>
>3.) A prime problem with bitches that is NOT helped by kibble is
>eclampsia. . . . And your vet ought to have known this already. So either she
>doesn't know what she's talking about or she was deliberately trying to
>scare you because she thinks you don't know what you are talking about.
>Either way she's a bad vet.
>
>And a final word on puppies. . . . Shame on your
>vet for trying to scare you into buying processed foods.
>
>You also should know, that veterinarians get little nutritional education in
>vet school and their text books are written by Hills. Imagine your
>pediatrician being educated by McDonald's. . . . "She needs to be getting at least
>6 Happy Meals a week or she's not going to grow properly and she will
>probably be retarded."

THIS is a keeper, folks.

Karen - stay away from the fireworks today, you're going to set them off just
by looking at them!

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:26 am ((PDT))

LOL! Thanks Lora. It's just frosts my butt....the choking on bones
argument is at least logical. I don't deal well with illogical arguments
and hence I am no longer a vet tech =)

Karen

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:37 am ((PDT))

"Karen Swanay" <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
He refuses to eat whole prey, he
> refuses organ meat, and has now decided that he'd rather fast 6
days than
> eat chicken. (It is NOT true that a dog will always eat
btw...that's
> repeated here on this list often and it's untrue. Most will, some
won't.)
*****
Well, you learn something every day! I was under the impression that
an otherwise healthy dog will in fact not starve itself to death.
Since your boy is alive, clearly you are not using him as an example
of a dog that did. Do you have any references I could read about
healthy dogs starving themselves to death?

Chris O

> He enjoys whole heads when I can get them (much easier for me in ND
when I
> could leave a whole deer head outside and it was -50F but here in
Fl, well I
> don't want to smell that!) This diet isn't as complicated as some
people
> make it sound, with their thousands of dollars in supplements and
bizarre
> recipes that take hours to make. It's nature. It's food. Shame
on your
> vet for trying to scare you into buying processed foods.
>
> You also should know, that veterinarians get little nutritional
education in
> vet school and their text books are written by Hills. Imagine your
> pediatrician being educated by McDonald's. Now imagine taking your
3 yr old
> daughter to him and telling him "Oh, she eats carrots, and lean
chicken, and
> brown rice!" He would say..."My God woman! You are going to kill
that
> child! She needs a balanced diet, and you can't possibly do that
on your
> own! What do you know about nutrition???? She needs to be getting
at least
> 6 Happy Meals a week or she's not going to grow properly and she
will
> probably be retarded." It's the same line, just different words.
You
> doctor harps on you to eat more fresh fruits and veggies, more lean
> protein. Less processed foods. Why would it be any different for
your
> dog? Processed foods are bad for all critters.
>
> Karen *former vet tech, raw feeder 7+ yrs
>
> --
> "Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care
about."
>
> LOI 1/26/07
> PA 3/22/07
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

6e. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:44 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> Hi guys!? I have written to the rawbreeder list too, but I have gotten so many different
opinions on what to do.? My female was bred surgically Monday with forzen semen.? I have
a fantastic repo vet that breeds danes and supplements her kibble with raw(no bone).? She
told me if I could not tell her the calcium-phosphorous ratio of what I am feeding then I
should not be feeding it to any dogs whos bone plates had not fully developed(fused) and
surely not a pregnant bitch.? She said I am going to cause all sorts of bone issues
including pano, OCD, and a bunch more she told me.? She also said I could harm the
fetuses.? Now, I am scared to death.?

************************

OK, well, I've bred many litters over the years and never known the actual cal:phros level.
Still don't. Am I worried? Nope; and I've been breeding since 1982.

My reasoning is that I feed lots of variety and try to feed whole animals where possible.
I also feed very green tripe (tripe with some part of the smaller part of the stomach and it's
contents), eggs, heads, whole fish, baby goats, baby lambs, rabbits, calf fetus's etc.

I raise my pups eating these animal parts also. But back to the pregnant bitch, I try to
always use good common sense. I feed each day with a long term plan in mind - that
being a whole food diet which may or maynot be made up with animal parts or whole
animals. Every week we feed over a wide range of animals and odd parts.
I do feed liver, but again, as part of the overall diet. I probably feed a few extras that
maybe some folks don't bother with, but I like to think I am covering as many bases as
possible.

I had a visit with a repo vet a few years ago. I had no idea she'd ask me about what my
pregnant bitch was eating so it caught me totally off guard. I answered that I fed raw.
Boy, did she go nuts on me. Gave me some long lecture while I stood and stared at the
floor and just nodded. Since I have only been asked by a vet about raw on two other
occasions and had my answers all lined up and ready, this one was a surprise and left me
feeling like a pupil called to the headmasters office.
After she got through with how my bitch was going to have serious whelping problems
and the pups all kinds of health risks, she talked me into doing bloodwork.
I agreed but mainly because I rarely get a chance to have blood work done on my dogs
since they are rarely at the vet or sick.

When the blood work came back on my *63 days about to whelp* bitch, the vet sent the
vet TECH to give me the results because she couldn't tell me herself that they were all
perfect and in the normal range. All of them!

I know that this vet would have made me doubt my feeding and puppy rearing expertise
had this been my first or 2nd litter but because she was staring at a bitch who'd never
eaten kibble who was from a bitch who'd never eaten kibble and who's previous litter had
never eaten kibble and lived in a household where none of the dogs from birth to old age
had all whelped and reared their pups without kibble, I stood firm. She begged me, for my
dogs sake, to feed my about to whelp bitch kibble and to continue it until all the pups had
been weaned and past puppyhood.

The vet didn't know I was a long time raw feeder and had I not been so cowed by her
tirade, I might have mentioned that the bitch standing before her had never tasted kibble
and neither had all the other dogs she lived with.

Sorry this is a long post, but I do understand your dilemma.

I feed a huge amount of variety, don't supplement and have pups born healthy and shiny
(everyone always comments on how shiny my pups are) and they are raised on the same
foods as the adults and grow normally. NO pano, no ...whatever. Just strong healthy
dogs. BTW, they are working dogs so I know they don't suffer from any food related
problems.

Feed variety. Make it your purpose in life to seek out a variety of food sources for your
dog/s. Think whole prey where possible. Where that's not possible, think ethnic markets,
think fish markets, think rancher friends. Start prowling markets in odd places. Talk to
butchers. Go online and see if you can find a breeder of rabbits or a goat or sheep
breeder who'll give you their old or young culls. Get creative.

I'm not a dane breeder but I have bred lots of dogs over the years. Wish I could help you
more.

Merril
Whippets

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

6f. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:04 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> p.s.? I found in the archives that tripe has a great ratio of
calcium:phosphorous

*** And yes, tripe has a ca:phos ratio of 1:1. Big deal, since it
doesn't have a lot of either one.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

6g. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Merril could you e-mail me privately,?I would like to call you if I could and pick your brain some more.? I don't have access to very much actuall whole prey, but I think I can get close to imitating the diet.? Still, I would love to chat!

Chelsea?

Messages in this topic (11)
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7a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "cheryl4fresians" cheryl4fresians@yahoo.com cheryl4fresians
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:44 am ((PDT))

Moderators Note:SIGN your mails!

Went cold turkey over to raw. Mostly beef. No bones yet, or
organs...but soon!
> Shelby (just under 50lbs, female, unspayed, American Bulldog/Pit
Bull
> Terrier) has not pooped since we started (we are on day 3).

> I am most worried about Shelby. Any reason a dog would stop
pooping?

REPLY:

Just feeding MEAT may be the problem. Try chicken back and wings
WITH THE BONE. Raw bones are good for them. NOT COOKED BONES.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:43 am ((PDT))

anndrea (with 2 n's) wrote:

>OK, so I semi-involuntarily took the plunge a few days ago. I ran out
>of dog food and a bunch of meat came in. So they went cold turkey over
>to raw. Mostly beef. No bones yet, or organs...but soon!

Go s-l-o-w!

>Shelby (just under 50lbs, female, unspayed, American Bulldog/Pit Bull
>Terrier) has not pooped since we started (we are on day 3).

2-4% is generally recommended as a feeding amount guideline, so a 50 pounder
should be fed, depending on her activity and metabolism, at least 1 pound of
raw per day.

>Chico (75lbs, male, neutered, Yellow Lab/Pit/possible Sharpei) has
>pooped some pretty normal poops, but less often (which I hear is how
>it is supposed to be).

1.5 pounds for him.

>Holly (55lbs, female, spayed, black lab/mutt) has had diarrhea. So bad
>that she didn't have a chance to tell us before it was too late
>yesterday (yes, we had taken her out in the morning, and it was a few
>hours later and she messed the carpet).

1 pound for her.

>I am most worried about Shelby. Any reason a dog would stop pooping?

Bowel tolerance is very dog-specific. Did Holly get a more fatty piece, did
Shelby get a smaller piece, . . . all of these factors can easily explain
the differences in poop that you're seeing.

Tell us more about exactly what you're feeding.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Runny Poops ----- HELP
Posted by: "ptrsrgnt" ptrsrgnt@yahoo.ca ptrsrgnt
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

Hello, my name is Peter and my wife and I have two labradoodles. The
older one is called Maggie and is 8 months. She is about 30 lbs. The
younger one is Gypsy and she is 6 months old. She is much bigger than
Maggie at 50 lbs.
They have been on raw since we got them and their main diet is chicken
carcasses and occasionally they get chicken thighs or pork button
bones (mostly meat with a few small bones in). Sometimes I give them
mixed organ meats but they are not too keen on this.
I feed them once a day (noon) and Maggie eats about 12 ounces, while
Gypsy eats about 24 ounces.
This is about 2% of there estimated, ideal, adult body weight.
They both really enjoy the raw food but most of the time their poops
are quite runny.
They have access to outside until about 11:00 pm.
They sleep in the kitchen and recently one of them (we suspect Gypsy)
has been pooping a lot on the floor and the blankets during the night.
We can't blame her if she has loose stools but my wife is getting very
upset and blames the raw food.
It doesn't seem to matter what I have fed them, even with chicken
carcasses that have a bigger percentage of bones than there should be.
This is supposed to harden up their poops.
The only thing that sticks out is that they play in the garden a lot
and they bite branches and stalks off the flowers and fruit bushes and
chew them up. Maybe these are some kind of laxative? They also eat
lots of grass.
Is it normal to have loose stools most of the time? Maybe I am feeding
them too much.
Can someone please advise as my wife is determined to go to kibble or
get rid of the dogs.

Thanks for any responses.

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:43 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptrsrgnt" <ptrsrgnt@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, my name is Peter and my wife and I have two labradoodles.

> They have been on raw since we got them and their main diet
> is chicken
> carcasses and occasionally they get chicken thighs or pork button
> bones (mostly meat with a few small bones in). Sometimes I give
> them mixed organ meats but they are not too keen on this.

> I feed them once a day (noon) and Maggie eats about 12 ounces,
> while Gypsy eats about 24 ounces.

> They both really enjoy the raw food but most of the time
> their poops are quite runny.

> It doesn't seem to matter what I have fed them, even with chicken
> carcasses that have a bigger percentage of bones than there
> should be.
> This is supposed to harden up their poops.

Has this problem (runny stools) always been there or is it a recent
development? When did you switch to once a day feeding? Perhaps
they are a little young for that.

The regulars on here who know me know I don't often say this but
your dogs need a lot more meat. They are eating almost nothing but
bone and that is just not healthy. Perhaps I am mistaking what you
are calling carcasses. Do you mean whole chickens or are they
chicken frames? I suspect you are feeding frames. I was wrong one
other time and this may be the second. :) :) :)

Normally increasing bone content will harden stools but there must
be enough meat to actually create a stool to harden.

Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it
at http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF
format for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

9. dead chicken carcass question
Posted by: "vonbrendenrotts" vonbrendenrotts@hotmail.com vonbrendenrotts
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT))

we have a small chicken farm that we raise for meat. we also raw feed
our dogs of cours. I am wondering somtimes meat birds suddenly die of
heart attacks ect... now , I have been throwing them away. but it
seems like such a waist. would it be safe to give to the dogs if it's
already dead??? The ones we give to our dogs had been killed by us.

if anybody knows more about this please let me know.

thanks,
Brenda Dumesnil

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT))

This is TOTALLY normal! He might be self-regulating,
or maybe he just isn't hungry right now. You could
maybe try feeding him again later on. If he still
doesn't eat, just wait until tomorrow.
My Poe (9 month old german shepherd/husky) has been
fed raw for about 2 weeks, and for the last 2 days has
just been licking her chicken, not eating it.
I just waited 20 minutes, then picked it up and put it
away.
Finally today I put it down and she ate nearly half of
it.

Some dogs just need to wait until they're really
hungry before they eat!

Nathalie

Today though my bigger Hav only
> licked his wings and
> wouldn't chew them up. After awhile I picked his up
> and put it away.
> Should I be worried.? Is this normal to sometimes
> eat a meal? Any
> thoughts.
> Jenna
>
>

____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: deworming
Posted by: "tamarabajema" tamarabajema@yahoo.ca tamarabajema
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Nope...never unless you have a known heavy infestation that is
adversely
> affecting the health of your dog.
>
How do you tell if your dog has worms in the early stage. I know by the
time they get a pot belly, and there are worms in their feces, it is
already a heavy infestation. I don't want to do irreversible damage.
Thanks
tamara

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11760

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Anxiety
From: Kathy McCusker
1b. Re: Anxiety
From: Bearhair
1c. Re: Anxiety
From: Patrice Quinn

2a. Re: Beef..
From: Bearhair
2b. Re: Beef..
From: Bearhair
2c. Re: Beef..
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
From: cujo1012

4a. Natures Menu raw diet.
From: admiralsagilitydogs
4b. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
From: Daisy Foxworth

5a. Re: licking but not eating.
From: carnesbill

6a. Chicken frames
From: Jenna Mahoney
6b. Re: Chicken frames
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: mechanically cut bone
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: question about pork legs
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: question about pork legs
From: Vickie

9a. Tuna
From: geraldinebutterfield
9b. Re: Tuna
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: carnesbill

12.1. Re: ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
From: Patrice Quinn

13a. Re: Eggs gave bad gas..
From: Bearhair

14a. Re: deworming
From: carnesbill

15a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: carnesbill
15b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Karen Swanay
15c. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Cathy

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Anxiety
Posted by: "Kathy McCusker" kmccusker72@hotmail.com kathym14456
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 5:38 am ((PDT))

Is it normal for those new to raw feeding to have some anxiety . I got up this am to my dog
having had an accident on the floor. He may have cried to go out but I didnt hear him. It was
loose and he did have some watery stool outside. It's not uncontrollable. He didn't eat the
amount he would normally eat for breakfast but he seems satisfied. I did introduce a new
meat yesterday and forgot and gave him something new at dinner time. My bad. My kids say I
worry too much about him, but I just want him to be as healthy as possible.Thanks for letting
me vent. Kathy

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Anxiety
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

Kathy wrote:

>Is it normal for those new to raw feeding to have some anxiety .

600 messages in one week . . . yeah, there's some anxiety!

>I got up this am to my dog
>having had an accident on the floor. He may have cried to go out but I didnt hear him. It was
>loose and he did have some watery stool outside. It's not uncontrollable. He didn't eat the
>amount he would normally eat for breakfast but he seems satisfied. I did introduce a new
>meat yesterday and forgot and gave him something new at dinner time. My bad.

Good analysis and diagnosis! Sounds like you (and he) are doing great!

>My kids say I
>worry too much about him, but I just want him to be as healthy as possible.Thanks for letting
>me vent.

Oh, they're just jealous!

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Anxiety
Posted by: "Patrice Quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Lora, you are a HOOT! I love reading your posts--by the way, they are
pretty helpful too! Patrice "dachsiegirl" Quinn

-------Original Message-------

From: Bearhair
Date: 7/4/2007 6:40:50 AM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Anxiety

Kathy wrote:

>Is it normal for those new to raw feeding to have some anxiety .

600 messages in one week . . . yeah, there's some anxiety!

>I got up this am to my dog
>having had an accident on the floor. He may have cried to go out but I
didnt hear him. It was
>loose and he did have some watery stool outside. It's not uncontrollable.
He didn't eat the
>amount he would normally eat for breakfast but he seems satisfied. I did
introduce a new
>meat yesterday and forgot and gave him something new at dinner time. My bad

Good analysis and diagnosis! Sounds like you (and he) are doing great!

>My kids say I
>worry too much about him, but I just want him to be as healthy as possible
Thanks for letting
>me vent.

Oh, they're just jealous!

Lora
Evanston, IL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Beef..
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

Chrissy wrote:

>Ok I got the sales add today, it is for beef chuck steaks or roast, blade or center cut for $1.27lb. Now these with the bones should be deboned before giving to the dogs?

Try asking the meat guy if he has any in the back that hasn't been cut-up
yet, for the same price. Tell him you're looking for a roast with the whole
bone, not sawn.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Beef..
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:42 am ((PDT))

Chrissy wrote:

>Ok I got the sales add today, it is for beef chuck steaks or roast, blade or center cut for $1.27lb. Now these with the bones should be deboned before giving to the dogs?

If the bone is sawn, it may be dangerously sharp.

As we know from our studies <grin>, beef chuck comes from the shoulder and
neck. A "blade" steak or roast comes from the shoulder blade. These are
perilously close to being weight-bearing bones, so I would monitor carefully
when fed.

>http://www.beefretail.org/uDocs/urmis/contents/beef.pdf page 10

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Beef..
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
Posted by: "cujo1012" knuj101@cinci.rr.com cujo1012
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

Chrissy,

I've bee doing this on purpose. I put the frozen meat on the hot tup
in the sun for a couple of hours (it has been more) and my shelties
love their nice, warm dinner.

Darla

I had forgot all about it, the freezer being outside it was exposed to
the heat of the day. By time I remember to feed the roast to the dogs
it had set out about 6 hours. I opened it up and it looked cooked....
I was hesitant to feed it to them but ya know they ate it up like it
was good stuff! A few hours in the summer sun can almost cook a roast!
>
>
> Chrissy

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Natures Menu raw diet.
Posted by: "admiralsagilitydogs" admiralsagilitydogs@yahoo.co.uk admiralsagilitydogs
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:41 am ((PDT))

Hello, im new to feeding the Raw diet, we are doing the Natures Menu
version. (www.naturesmenu.co.uk)

we have only JUST started feeding it and we're still unsure on what we
should be feeding and in what quantities.

On the Natures Munu site it recommends to feed, raw meat liquidised
vegetables/fruit and add raw bones twice a week and chicken wings
twice a week, too add a vitimin supplment, and heart/liver/kidney once
a week. We also add sardines and wisked egg.

Any help and advice gratefully recieved, please either reply to this
topic or email me privatly at: admiralsagilitydogs(at)yahoo.co.uk

Thankyou

Sophie.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))

Hi Sophie, welcome. Since Naturesmenu is apparently designed to add
whole meats with bones, why not cut out all the fuss and just feed raw,
without any of the veggies or sugars or other supplements that they
don't need? I started my cat on something like that, but it was to
transition her to raw. If your cat (or dog) will eat bone and large
pieces of meat you're home free. You don't have to go to that extra
bother. Just keep up a good variety, and an appropriate ratio over
time of meat, bone and organ, and maybe fish oil. That's all they need
and so much less for you to organize and calculate.

Daisy

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:14 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@> wrote:
> >Sandee,
> Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought since my dogs are only 10lbs,
> that chicken wings were a good start for them.

Jenna,
Since I have Great Danes, I am not used to small dogs. If your dogs
are such a size that swallowing a wing would be pretty near
impossible, then wings are great. I feed them to my cats regularly.

Betty,
Legs are fine, no problem. I feed them to my cats all the time. I
buy at least one package of legs every week.

The thing about raw feeding is that nothing is carved in stone. You
won't find any two people that feed exactly the same thing. The
only carved in stone rule is to feed raw meat, bones, and organs
from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone, and some
organs. Start slow and add new proteins slowly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Chicken frames
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:14 am ((PDT))

What exactly do you get when you order a chicken frame?
Jenna

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@...>
wrote:
>
> What exactly do you get when you order a chicken frame?
> Jenna

You get the chicken body after wings, neck/head, legs/thighs, and the
human usuable breast meat has been removed.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: mechanically cut bone
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@...>
wrote:
>
> Is it all right to feed mechanically cut bone?

Too sharp.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: question about pork legs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

"Vickie" <dals4creekside@...> wrote:
My question is, how many of you feed pork legs
> and how in the heck do you get that skin off it?
*****
I'm not clear on what you mean by "leg" since as I understand pork the
leg consists of a ham, a shank, and the foot. I do buy "long feet"
from an Asian market, which are trotters cut well up into the shank
area. I don't get the skin off, that's the job of my dogs. Sometimes
I will score the skin to make it easier to tackle. My dogs may eat
them completely, or eat them down to the tootsies, or get full/lose
interest somewhere in between. I expect these long feet to require
several hours of effort.

Since long feet are pretty inexpensive I am likely to feed them several
times a month. (Since I only feed 15 or so meals a month, it's
possible that long feet may comprise a third of my dogs' meals. Or
not.)

I got some ox
> tails on sale at an organic market, but they were cut in about 1 1/2
> inch pieces. Have any of you fed these in that proportion before?
*****
The only way I'd feed an oxtail is completely totally whole. Needless
to say, my dogs rarely get oxtail.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: question about pork legs
Posted by: "Vickie" dals4creekside@comcast.net vivkie
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))

> *****
> I'm not clear on what you mean by "leg" since as I understand pork
the
> leg consists of a ham, a shank, and the foot.

Thanks for answering Chris

I would say the legs we got with the pork purchase include the feet and
part of the shank. I will score the skin when we give them the other
leg. Thanks

Vickie

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Tuna
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

I read that raw salmon is ok for dogs if it's been frozen for a period
of time. How about fresh raw tuna? Do I need to freeze this first too
or can I give it fresh never frozen?

Thanks everyone,
geraldine

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

>How about fresh raw tuna?

Hi.My understanding is that no raw salmon and raw Trout from north pacific area ;from Alaska to CA area,is not good to feed for salmon poisoning while you can give the raw salmon from chile or something.

For tuna,I understad as never feed it to dog due high Mercury. I love Raw Tuna;Sashimi,but not to dog.

Am I wrong,everyone?

yassy

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10a. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

"wisslewj" <wisslewj@...> wrote:
> I was wondering first off if there is anything poisonous to dogs in
> that shell and second if this is a cause of concern or can their
> stomach digest that? The end is pretty pointy and I don't want it to
> puncture anything. I know bone digests well enough, but shell?
>
> Should I give him some meat to raise stomach acid in the hopes of
> digesting it or just wait for it to pass out?
*****
Given the passing of time, I expect Ma Nature has provided answers
already. If not, it's my guess everything ought to be fine. The shell
was small and if your Chi can digest bones it should be able to make
quick work of the shell. And as with eggshells, whatever wasn't
digested will be excreted.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
>
> Shelby (just under 50lbs, female, unspayed, American
> Bulldog/Pit Bull
> Terrier) has not pooped since we started (we are on day 3).

I'm sure he has. You have fed him nothing to stop him up. Like you
said, he could have pooped and eaten it. Wouldn't necessarily been
any residue and you wouldn't notice.

> Chico (75lbs, male, neutered, Yellow Lab/Pit/possible Sharpei) has
> pooped some pretty normal poops, but less often (which I hear
> is how
> it is supposed to be).

It is but it usually won't get that way without bones in the diet.

> Holly (55lbs, female, spayed, black lab/mutt) has had diarrhea.
> So bad
> that she didn't have a chance to tell us before it was too late
> yesterday (yes, we had taken her out in the morning, and it was
> a few
> hours later and she messed the carpet).

Probably because of the amount of fat in ground beef. Having
digestive upset is not unusual in newly switched dogs particularly
if there is no bone in the diet, even more particularly if there is
a lot of fat.

I think you need to do some research. Check out my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding -- Read the book "Work Wonders"
by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at

http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF format
for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale
> anndrea (with 2 n's) and her crew
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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12.1. Re: ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
Posted by: "Patrice Quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

Chris, I'm sorry if I've done something inappropriate here in the forum. I
m a newbie to forums as well as raw feeding. How do I get to RawChat?
Again, sorry if I created a problem. Patrice Quinn

-------Original Message-------

From: costrowski75
Date: 7/3/2007 7:42:31 AM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] ADMIN/Re: itchy dog

Please take all Nzyme discussion to RawChat. Further postings to
Rawfeeding will be summarily dismissed.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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Messages in this topic (35)
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13a. Re: Eggs gave bad gas..
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

Andrea wrote:

>I've been known to feed Geiger pork or egg before family get
>togethers just for the fun of watching people's reactions when he
>pretends he's a skunk. It's sick, I know. (=

But not entirely uncommon for us . . . someone else was considering leaving
her half-eaten pig head on the TOP of the garbage can, just for fun, and I
want to stick it on a stake in the yard with a citronella candle atop.

Were we sick before and this has just given us new opportunities, or ?

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
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14a. Re: deworming
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@...>
wrote:
>
> is deworming more neccessary on a raw diet, do you need to do
> it more
> than once a year?

Deworm your dog when he has worms. Not necessary unless there are
actually worms there.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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15a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
Chelsea,
Your vet is full of it. Like most vets, she has almost no knowledge
of canine nutrtion and has a lot of old wives' tales.

> I have a fantastic repo vet that breeds danes and supplements
> her kibble with raw(no bone).?

That alone should tell you how much she knows about canine nutrition.

> She told me if I could not tell her the calcium-phosphorous
> ratio of what I am feeding then I should not be feeding it to
> any dogs whos bone plates had not fully developed(fused)
> and surely not a pregnant bitch.?

Tell her when she can tell you the calcium-phosphorous ratio in HER
OWN diet, you will do the research and find out. :) If its such an
important ratio, she should be constantly aware of that ratio in the
food she eats daily. If she says she is taking supplements to
balance it out, she doesn't have a clue and isn't in balance either,
whatever "balance" means. I know of hundreds of puppies who have
been raised on the prey model raw diet. I personally have raised a
Great Dane puppy from 12weeks to his present age of 2 1/2 years on a
raw diet and not a single health or bone development problem yet.

> She said I am going to cause all sorts of bone issues
> including pano, OCD, and a bunch more she told me.?

Old wives' tales. I have never heard of a raw fed puppy having a
confirmed case of pano.

> She also said I could harm the fetuses.? Now, I am scared
> to death.?

I haven't had any experience with pregnant dogs so I can't help you
with firsthand experience there but think about it. How in the
world did wolves survive as a species for millions of years if that
was true. Don't you think they all ate raw while pregnant? I think
more old wives' tales.

> Some say feed bone, some say only in the beginning, some say
> give her whatever she will eat; and she knows whats best...?

My thinking on this subject is that since there is disagreement on
exactly how to feed a pregnant dog or new puppies, it just doesn't
make much difference. I suspect "whatever she will eat" is the most
correct answer. I'm sure some raw feeding breeders will jump in
pretty soon and give you some guidance.

> I have heard several people that had dogs come down
> with eclampsia, YIKES!?

I'm betting those people are not raw feeders. One very good piece
of advice I can give you that is the absolute truth. Always be wary
of advice you get about raw feeding from people who have never fed
raw.

> In general, right now, should I just continue?

I suspect so.

> Someone please helpme with what she should absolutely have
> and also the things she should NOT have for her and her pups.?

There are no absolutes. I can tell you for sure that pups should be
fed just as adults. You might want to smash the bones the first few
weeks after weening but other than that, puppies are no different
than dogs. By 13 weeks, my Dane puppy was even eating the same
amount as the adults.

> I am so nervous...? Thank you ahead of time for any advice you
have.

Don't be so nervous ... Dogs have been having pups for a zillion and
one years. Its a pretty difficult thing to screw up.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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15b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

Wow, that vet is a PRO at scare tactics!! Let me tell you a couple of
things...

1.) Pano is primarily seen in male GSDs. I can occur in other dogs but
that's where it is seen in it's highest %. I had a male GSD with Pano and
he was bred from two kibble eating dogs, weaned onto dog chow, and fed
Science Diet (I didn't know better back then.) He suffered for a long time
with it. I do not believe that having pano is something that comes about in
utero. It comes from feeding an inappropriate diet to a growing dog. So,
the state of your pups with regard to Pano are none of your business,
concern, or in your control unless you are keeping the entire litter. (Bad
vet for telling you that...I'd have ripped her head clean off from that
one.)

2.) People have been breeding dogs for thousands of years on scraps and
dead animals. I know we frequently say "But wolves..." but that argument is
shot down by vets because dogs aren't wolves they say. Well dogs are still
dogs! The Egyptians didn't have kibble to feed their lactating bitches.
The Afghani's then (and now) don't have kibble to feed their Afghan hounds.
The Inuit don't have kibble to feed their Malamutes (some do but some still
don't) and they produce big dogs that work hard. Anyone, any vet or dog
owner you meet, if they are over 50 yrs old, ask them what their
grandparents fed the dogs they had. They will most likely tell you scraps
and dead animals. Shame on your vet for telling you those things. Dogs
have been mating and whelping pups since the dawn of time without Hills
there to make sure the litter was healthy.

3.) A prime problem with bitches that is NOT helped by kibble is
eclampsia. That's why on top of switching the bitch to puppy kibble vets
tell owners to add cottage cheese or calcium tablets. Yes, you do not want
to be feeding anything where the Ca:Phos ratio is upside down 1:2, 0.5:4,
because that would leech Ca from your dog, luckily bones don't come like
that. They are always (as far as I've been able to see) 2:1 or there
abouts. And your vet ought to have known this already. So either she
doesn't know what she's talking about or she was deliberately trying to
scare you because she thinks you don't know what you are talking about.
Either way she's a bad vet.

And a final word on puppies. My Yeager (a 4 yr old American Staffordshire
Terrier) was kibble raised from kibble parents until I got him and he's been
raw fed. He grew so slowly! He didn't even have that awkward teenage
phase. He is a gorgeous dog. Well muscled, well built, solid hips, elbows,
and his head and neck are gorgeous. He has had no issues whatsoever and I'm
not particularly careful about his diet. He refuses to eat whole prey, he
refuses organ meat, and has now decided that he'd rather fast 6 days than
eat chicken. (It is NOT true that a dog will always eat btw...that's
repeated here on this list often and it's untrue. Most will, some won't.)
He enjoys whole heads when I can get them (much easier for me in ND when I
could leave a whole deer head outside and it was -50F but here in Fl, well I
don't want to smell that!) This diet isn't as complicated as some people
make it sound, with their thousands of dollars in supplements and bizarre
recipes that take hours to make. It's nature. It's food. Shame on your
vet for trying to scare you into buying processed foods.

You also should know, that veterinarians get little nutritional education in
vet school and their text books are written by Hills. Imagine your
pediatrician being educated by McDonald's. Now imagine taking your 3 yr old
daughter to him and telling him "Oh, she eats carrots, and lean chicken, and
brown rice!" He would say..."My God woman! You are going to kill that
child! She needs a balanced diet, and you can't possibly do that on your
own! What do you know about nutrition???? She needs to be getting at least
6 Happy Meals a week or she's not going to grow properly and she will
probably be retarded." It's the same line, just different words. You
doctor harps on you to eat more fresh fruits and veggies, more lean
protein. Less processed foods. Why would it be any different for your
dog? Processed foods are bad for all critters.

Karen *former vet tech, raw feeder 7+ yrs

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07

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Messages in this topic (4)
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15c. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Cathy" camahr@charter.net camahr
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

Cathy M.
Retrievers Etc.

Messages in this topic (4)
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