[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11761

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
From: jeff wissler
2b. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
From: Jane Boswell

3a. Re: Chicken frames
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: Chicken frames
From: Shannon Parker
3c. Re: Chicken frames
From: carnesbill
3d. Re: Chicken frames
From: Jenna Mahoney

4.1. ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Tuna
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: Tuna
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Doguefan@aol.com
6b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Bearhair
6c. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Karen Swanay
6d. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: costrowski75
6e. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: merril Woolf
6f. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: cypressbunny
6g. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Doguefan@aol.com

7a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: cheryl4fresians
7b. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: Bearhair

8a. Runny Poops ----- HELP
From: ptrsrgnt
8b. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
From: carnesbill

9. dead chicken carcass question
From: vonbrendenrotts

10a. Re: licking but not eating.
From: Nathalie Poulin

11a. Re: deworming
From: tamarabajema

Messages
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1a. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "admiralsagilitydogs"
<admiralsagilitydogs@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, im new to feeding the Raw diet, we are doing the
> Natures Menu version. (www.naturesmenu.co.uk)

Sophie,
Their diet sounds a lot more complicated that it need be. You
should do a little research. Check out my web site at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm for my suggestions of
beginning a raw diet.

Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it
at http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF
format for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT))

"admiralsagilitydogs" <admiralsagilitydogs@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, im new to feeding the Raw diet, we are doing the Natures
Menu
> version. (www.naturesmenu.co.uk)
*****
Paying dearly for someone else to make (wrong) nutritional decisions
for your dog simply makes no sense.

> On the Natures Munu site it recommends to feed, raw meat liquidised
> vegetables/fruit and add raw bones twice a week and chicken wings
> twice a week, too add a vitimin supplment, and heart/liver/kidney
once
> a week. We also add sardines and wisked egg.
*****
Yes, well this company is not only charging you dearly for their
product, it's not even a "complete" product and you must still on top
of their prefabricated foodlike substance supplement add fresh food.
Since the fresh meat, bones and organs are what drive a good raw
diet, you can safely and quite properly junk the Nature's Menu and
cut to the chase.

Given that the product requires the addition of raw meat, raw bones,
chicken wings, a vitamin and organs, WHAT EXACTLY are you paying
for? Do you know the tale of "Stone Soup"? That, my friend, is what
you have purchased.

Get rid of the Nature's Menu. Please. Quickly. Forget about
liquidised vegetables, forget about the vitamin supplement. Forget
about "raw bones" unless they are swaddled in meat. Focus on whole
meats (whatever's available--variety is our friend), meaty body parts
that include edible bone (chicken, lamb, rabbit, whole fish, pork if
you can get it. Continue buying the heart/liver/kidney, although for
our purposes heart is fed as muscle meat, not organ.

Use as a good beginning feeding guideline 2%-3% of your dog's ideal
adult weight, daily; and think in terms of 80% meat, 10% edible bone;
10% organ, of which as much as half can be liver.

Whatever ingredients are in Nature's Menu, they are either irrelevant
to a dog or they entirely duplicate what you will provide by feeding
raw meats, edible bones and organs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
Posted by: "jeff wissler" wisslewj@yahoo.com wisslewj
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:16 am ((PDT))

Chris,

Thanks. I am still waiting to see if it comes out
this morning lol. He ate it late last night. I
assumed it was no biggy but I wasn't sure if seashell
was digestible or not. My main concern was the
pointedness of it.

We shall see. :)

Thanks
Jeff

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
Posted by: "Jane Boswell" famtimes@blazenetme.net famtimes2001
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

My dogs - 2 Belgian sheepdogs - one is 12 months, the
other is 5 y.o. - eat seashells regularly as we go to the
ocean several times a week for long runs. The youngest
loves to eat the crabs at low tide too. He steals them
from the seagulls and so they are fresh. He has never had a problem.
I bring fresh water along and they drink that and not the sea water.
(for those worried about sodium/minerals). He also likes to
nibble on seaweed.

Jane in Maine

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@...>
wrote:
>
> What exactly do you get when you order a chicken frame?
*****
Bones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:45 am ((PDT))

Hi Chris,
I think I have to interject here. By chicken frames we are talking the breast bone, ribs and cartilage, correct?? I just want to make sure I'm on the same page here...

I get Chicken frames from an organic source and they are not just bone. They are covered in at least 50% meat, have lots of cartilage and about 20% bone. I know that they are not all like that, but the source I have is...and I suspect others are. I think you just have to be very careful when you source them out. As well, I get them at $1/lb which in my neck of the woods is a great price.

I obviously don't just feed frames, but add lots of meat to it. I am happy with the meatiness of them though....they blow chicken backs and necks out of the water!


Thanks,

Shannon

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
*****
Bones.
Chris O

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Shannon Parker <mrbatisse@...>
wrote:
>
> I get Chicken frames from an organic source and they are
> not just bone. They are covered in at least 50% meat, have
> lots of cartilage and about 20% bone.

I'm not Chris, but it never stopped me from answering questions
directed to her before. :) I think what you are buying is known
here as bone-in breast.

> As well, I get them at $1/lb which in my neck of the woods is
> a great price.

The few times I bought frames, I paid $0.14/lb for them. I doubt
seriously they are the same thing you are talking about.

> I obviously don't just feed frames, but add lots of meat to
> it. I am happy with the meatiness of them though....they
> blow chicken backs and necks out of the water!

The frames we talk about here are backs with ribs and breastbone
attached. Actually the whole body skeleton is included. There
really is not a lot of meat involved.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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3d. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:44 am ((PDT))

That what I thought- so it is mostly bone and I should add more meat?

Bill- by the way- I read and loved your raw feeding 101. It was very
clear, detailed, and great for newbies. Thank you!!!
Jenna

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@>
> wrote:
> >
> > What exactly do you get when you order a chicken frame?
> > Jenna
>
> You get the chicken body after wings, neck/head, legs/thighs, and the
> human usuable breast meat has been removed.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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4.1. ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

"Patrice Quinn" <patrice@...> wrote:
>
> Chris, I'm sorry if I've done something inappropriate here in the
forum.
*****
You did not. The topic was haring off into the weeds. We don't need
that here. RawChat has a bigger yard to play in.

Post message: rawchat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawchat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: rawchat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Chris O

Messages in this topic (36)
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5a. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> I read that raw salmon is ok for dogs if it's been frozen for a
period
> of time. How about fresh raw tuna? Do I need to freeze this first too
> or can I give it fresh never frozen?
*****
When you seek information about feeding raw salmon, you must at the
very least read the whole story. If you are referring to wild caught
salmon from the Pacific Northwest, you should freeze it for a week or
two to kill parasites. This also applies to PNW trout and steelhead.
Wild caught salmon from the Arctic Ocean or Bering Sea is free of these
parasites, but populations are being fished out.

If you are referring to farmed salmon, whether it comes from the US,
Canada or Chile you do not have to prefreeze it (actually in most cases
you would be REfreezing).

If you don't know the difference between salmon from the Pacific
Northwest and farmed salmon, continue your fish education. Here are
some links that may be of interest:
http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/Atlantic_salmon
http://www.puresalmon.org/
http://www.webmd.com/news/20060629/is-that-wild-salmon-really-wild

http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=bestandworst
http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html
http://www.uga.edu/seafood/SafeSeafood.htm

Tuna may have dangerous mercury levels (or not--research results and
interpretations vary) and may be fished inappropriately (or not) but
it's not going to present the parasites PNW salmonids do. You can feed
it raw if you want to; whether or not you feed tuna at all is your
choice.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Hi.My understanding is that no raw salmon and raw Trout from
north pacific area ;from Alaska to CA area,is not good to feed for
salmon poisoning while you can give the raw salmon from chile or
something.
*****
North Pacific is fine as long as it's north all the way to the
Arctic. Anything from southern Alaska south to the mid-California
coast IF IT IS WILD CAUGHT offers the chance of rickettsia
infestation. Freeze first or don't feed.

Chilean salmon is all of it farmed, off the coast. It is arguably
the least polluted of our farmed salmon choices, the others being US
farmed and Canadian farmed. But freezing won't remove pollutants and
there are no parasites, so feeding "fresh" from the market is fine.

> For tuna,I understad as never feed it to dog due high Mercury. I
love Raw Tuna;Sashimi,but not to dog.
*****
There is increasing arguemenht that the FDA warnings about mercury
levels are overstated; however one feels about raw tuna if you are
comfortable eating sashimi, you can feed it to your dog.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:18 am ((PDT))

Thank you Katherine, and Karen. These posts have been so helpful and reassuring.? I am going to do my best.?

Chelsea

p.s.? I found in the archives that tripe has a great ratio of calcium:phosphorous

-----Original Message-----
From: Cathy <camahr@charter.net>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 7:52 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> Hi guys!? I have written to the rawbreeder list too, but I have
gotten so many different opinions on what to do.? My female was bred
surgically Monday with forzen semen.? I have a fantastic repo vet
that breeds danes and supplements her kibble with raw(no bone).? She
told me if I could not tell her the calcium-phosphorous ratio of what
I am feeding then I should not be feeding it to any dogs whos bone
plates had not fully developed(fused) and surely not a pregnant
bitch.? She said I am going to cause all sorts of bone issues
including pano, OCD, and a bunch more she told me.? She also said I
could harm the fetuses.? Now, I am scared to death.?

First things first! Take a deep breath, breath out, relax. Ask
yourself this question, can parents of any teenage boy tell you the
calcium/phophorus ratio of what he is eating? Can the average
pregnant woman tell you the calcium/phosphorus ratio of every meal
she eats? Well I sure couldn't and I've given birth to 2 sons who
are now healthy grown men. I have also bred and raised Chessapeake
Bay Retrievers for the last 10 years. We have been feeding raw for
nearly 11 years.

Guidelines for feeding your pregnant bitch are really not all that
different from her non pregnant state for the first month. Variety,
meat, organ, and bone just as you have been feeding. In the second
month of pregancy she will gradually increase her intake. Organ
meats, liver especially are a good source of B vitamins and must be
available to your pregnant bitch.

In the last month of preganancy do not increase the amount of bone,
rather give her normal pre pregnancy amounts. And after delivery
then increase the amount of bone slightly to help with milk
production.

Your bitches body, can and should metabolize and move calcium from
her bones into her blood stream to meet her calcium needs. The on
set of lactation brings on an extreme need for calcium, which her
body metabolizes from her bones. This need for calcium can not
immediately be met by diet so her body must be ready to meet this
need. If the bitch is supplemented with high levels of calcium
during pregnancy, or her bone intake is increased too far, her body
is not metabolically primed to mobilize calcium from her bones.
Therefore, when the demands for calcium are suddenly and dramatically
elevated at the initiation of lactation, she is unable to keep up
with the metabolic demands, which can result in serious health
complications.

We are 3rd generation raw fed Chessies now. Litter sizes have been
large 10 to 13 puppies per litter. Mom nurses them for 8 to 12 weeks
and Mom gains weight while nursing. Puppies are introduced to large
pieces of raw meety bones starting at 4 weeks of age.

Cathy M.
Retrievers Etc.

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (11)
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6b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:18 am ((PDT))

Karen wrote:

>Wow, that vet is a PRO at scare tactics!! Let me tell you a couple of
>things...
>
>1.) Pano is primarily seen in male GSDs. . . . (Bad
>vet for telling you that...I'd have ripped her head clean off from that
>one.)
>
>2.) People have been breeding dogs for thousands of years on scraps and
>dead animals. . . . Shame on your vet for telling you those things. Dogs
>have been mating and whelping pups since the dawn of time without Hills
>there to make sure the litter was healthy.
>
>3.) A prime problem with bitches that is NOT helped by kibble is
>eclampsia. . . . And your vet ought to have known this already. So either she
>doesn't know what she's talking about or she was deliberately trying to
>scare you because she thinks you don't know what you are talking about.
>Either way she's a bad vet.
>
>And a final word on puppies. . . . Shame on your
>vet for trying to scare you into buying processed foods.
>
>You also should know, that veterinarians get little nutritional education in
>vet school and their text books are written by Hills. Imagine your
>pediatrician being educated by McDonald's. . . . "She needs to be getting at least
>6 Happy Meals a week or she's not going to grow properly and she will
>probably be retarded."

THIS is a keeper, folks.

Karen - stay away from the fireworks today, you're going to set them off just
by looking at them!

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (11)
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6c. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:26 am ((PDT))

LOL! Thanks Lora. It's just frosts my butt....the choking on bones
argument is at least logical. I don't deal well with illogical arguments
and hence I am no longer a vet tech =)

Karen

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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6d. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:37 am ((PDT))

"Karen Swanay" <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
He refuses to eat whole prey, he
> refuses organ meat, and has now decided that he'd rather fast 6
days than
> eat chicken. (It is NOT true that a dog will always eat
btw...that's
> repeated here on this list often and it's untrue. Most will, some
won't.)
*****
Well, you learn something every day! I was under the impression that
an otherwise healthy dog will in fact not starve itself to death.
Since your boy is alive, clearly you are not using him as an example
of a dog that did. Do you have any references I could read about
healthy dogs starving themselves to death?

Chris O

> He enjoys whole heads when I can get them (much easier for me in ND
when I
> could leave a whole deer head outside and it was -50F but here in
Fl, well I
> don't want to smell that!) This diet isn't as complicated as some
people
> make it sound, with their thousands of dollars in supplements and
bizarre
> recipes that take hours to make. It's nature. It's food. Shame
on your
> vet for trying to scare you into buying processed foods.
>
> You also should know, that veterinarians get little nutritional
education in
> vet school and their text books are written by Hills. Imagine your
> pediatrician being educated by McDonald's. Now imagine taking your
3 yr old
> daughter to him and telling him "Oh, she eats carrots, and lean
chicken, and
> brown rice!" He would say..."My God woman! You are going to kill
that
> child! She needs a balanced diet, and you can't possibly do that
on your
> own! What do you know about nutrition???? She needs to be getting
at least
> 6 Happy Meals a week or she's not going to grow properly and she
will
> probably be retarded." It's the same line, just different words.
You
> doctor harps on you to eat more fresh fruits and veggies, more lean
> protein. Less processed foods. Why would it be any different for
your
> dog? Processed foods are bad for all critters.
>
> Karen *former vet tech, raw feeder 7+ yrs
>
> --
> "Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care
about."
>
> LOI 1/26/07
> PA 3/22/07
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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6e. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:44 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> Hi guys!? I have written to the rawbreeder list too, but I have gotten so many different
opinions on what to do.? My female was bred surgically Monday with forzen semen.? I have
a fantastic repo vet that breeds danes and supplements her kibble with raw(no bone).? She
told me if I could not tell her the calcium-phosphorous ratio of what I am feeding then I
should not be feeding it to any dogs whos bone plates had not fully developed(fused) and
surely not a pregnant bitch.? She said I am going to cause all sorts of bone issues
including pano, OCD, and a bunch more she told me.? She also said I could harm the
fetuses.? Now, I am scared to death.?

************************

OK, well, I've bred many litters over the years and never known the actual cal:phros level.
Still don't. Am I worried? Nope; and I've been breeding since 1982.

My reasoning is that I feed lots of variety and try to feed whole animals where possible.
I also feed very green tripe (tripe with some part of the smaller part of the stomach and it's
contents), eggs, heads, whole fish, baby goats, baby lambs, rabbits, calf fetus's etc.

I raise my pups eating these animal parts also. But back to the pregnant bitch, I try to
always use good common sense. I feed each day with a long term plan in mind - that
being a whole food diet which may or maynot be made up with animal parts or whole
animals. Every week we feed over a wide range of animals and odd parts.
I do feed liver, but again, as part of the overall diet. I probably feed a few extras that
maybe some folks don't bother with, but I like to think I am covering as many bases as
possible.

I had a visit with a repo vet a few years ago. I had no idea she'd ask me about what my
pregnant bitch was eating so it caught me totally off guard. I answered that I fed raw.
Boy, did she go nuts on me. Gave me some long lecture while I stood and stared at the
floor and just nodded. Since I have only been asked by a vet about raw on two other
occasions and had my answers all lined up and ready, this one was a surprise and left me
feeling like a pupil called to the headmasters office.
After she got through with how my bitch was going to have serious whelping problems
and the pups all kinds of health risks, she talked me into doing bloodwork.
I agreed but mainly because I rarely get a chance to have blood work done on my dogs
since they are rarely at the vet or sick.

When the blood work came back on my *63 days about to whelp* bitch, the vet sent the
vet TECH to give me the results because she couldn't tell me herself that they were all
perfect and in the normal range. All of them!

I know that this vet would have made me doubt my feeding and puppy rearing expertise
had this been my first or 2nd litter but because she was staring at a bitch who'd never
eaten kibble who was from a bitch who'd never eaten kibble and who's previous litter had
never eaten kibble and lived in a household where none of the dogs from birth to old age
had all whelped and reared their pups without kibble, I stood firm. She begged me, for my
dogs sake, to feed my about to whelp bitch kibble and to continue it until all the pups had
been weaned and past puppyhood.

The vet didn't know I was a long time raw feeder and had I not been so cowed by her
tirade, I might have mentioned that the bitch standing before her had never tasted kibble
and neither had all the other dogs she lived with.

Sorry this is a long post, but I do understand your dilemma.

I feed a huge amount of variety, don't supplement and have pups born healthy and shiny
(everyone always comments on how shiny my pups are) and they are raised on the same
foods as the adults and grow normally. NO pano, no ...whatever. Just strong healthy
dogs. BTW, they are working dogs so I know they don't suffer from any food related
problems.

Feed variety. Make it your purpose in life to seek out a variety of food sources for your
dog/s. Think whole prey where possible. Where that's not possible, think ethnic markets,
think fish markets, think rancher friends. Start prowling markets in odd places. Talk to
butchers. Go online and see if you can find a breeder of rabbits or a goat or sheep
breeder who'll give you their old or young culls. Get creative.

I'm not a dane breeder but I have bred lots of dogs over the years. Wish I could help you
more.

Merril
Whippets

Messages in this topic (11)
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6f. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:04 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> p.s.? I found in the archives that tripe has a great ratio of
calcium:phosphorous

*** Forget about the stupid calcium phosphorus ratio. Worrying about
that and trying to "fix it" is what causes pano, eclampsia, etc. Do
not give puppy kibble or extra calcium to the pregnant bitch! Listen
to Cathy on that one, not Karen. Cathy explained it well.

*** And yes, tripe has a ca:phos ratio of 1:1. Big deal, since it
doesn't have a lot of either one.

*** The further you stray from nature's model the more likely it is
you will have problems. Tripe is an excellent part of a good raw diet,
not because it has a good ratio but because it comes inside a prey
animal.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (11)
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6g. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Merril could you e-mail me privately,?I would like to call you if I could and pick your brain some more.? I don't have access to very much actuall whole prey, but I think I can get close to imitating the diet.? Still, I would love to chat!

Chelsea?

Messages in this topic (11)
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7a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "cheryl4fresians" cheryl4fresians@yahoo.com cheryl4fresians
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:44 am ((PDT))

Moderators Note:SIGN your mails!

Went cold turkey over to raw. Mostly beef. No bones yet, or
organs...but soon!
> Shelby (just under 50lbs, female, unspayed, American Bulldog/Pit
Bull
> Terrier) has not pooped since we started (we are on day 3).

> I am most worried about Shelby. Any reason a dog would stop
pooping?

REPLY:

Just feeding MEAT may be the problem. Try chicken back and wings
WITH THE BONE. Raw bones are good for them. NOT COOKED BONES.

Just feeding meat is like sending a glob down to their stomach. Its
OK to feed meat sometimes by itself, but 60-80% of their meal should
be raw meaty bones ... meat and consumable bones. I also hear canned
pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling) will help them out with either
constipation or diarrhea. Also, they WILL definitely poop ALOT LESS
when eating raw because they assimilate the nutrients rather than
pooping them out. Try blending some vegees, romaine lettuce,
carrots, celery, parsley, garlic into a paste and feeding it.

When feeding raw ... here's the key. In the wild, they would eat
normally a rabbit. A rabbit is mostly bones, lesser meat, small
organs, and stomach lining and whatever is in the rabbit's stomach,
small portion of vegees. That is how you should feed your dog. Go
the websites and do research. I think your dog needs more bone to
help the meat to digest.

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:43 am ((PDT))

anndrea (with 2 n's) wrote:

>OK, so I semi-involuntarily took the plunge a few days ago. I ran out
>of dog food and a bunch of meat came in. So they went cold turkey over
>to raw. Mostly beef. No bones yet, or organs...but soon!

Go s-l-o-w!

>Shelby (just under 50lbs, female, unspayed, American Bulldog/Pit Bull
>Terrier) has not pooped since we started (we are on day 3).

2-4% is generally recommended as a feeding amount guideline, so a 50 pounder
should be fed, depending on her activity and metabolism, at least 1 pound of
raw per day.

>Chico (75lbs, male, neutered, Yellow Lab/Pit/possible Sharpei) has
>pooped some pretty normal poops, but less often (which I hear is how
>it is supposed to be).

1.5 pounds for him.

>Holly (55lbs, female, spayed, black lab/mutt) has had diarrhea. So bad
>that she didn't have a chance to tell us before it was too late
>yesterday (yes, we had taken her out in the morning, and it was a few
>hours later and she messed the carpet).

1 pound for her.

>I am most worried about Shelby. Any reason a dog would stop pooping?

Bowel tolerance is very dog-specific. Did Holly get a more fatty piece, did
Shelby get a smaller piece, . . . all of these factors can easily explain
the differences in poop that you're seeing.

Tell us more about exactly what you're feeding.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Runny Poops ----- HELP
Posted by: "ptrsrgnt" ptrsrgnt@yahoo.ca ptrsrgnt
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

Hello, my name is Peter and my wife and I have two labradoodles. The
older one is called Maggie and is 8 months. She is about 30 lbs. The
younger one is Gypsy and she is 6 months old. She is much bigger than
Maggie at 50 lbs.
They have been on raw since we got them and their main diet is chicken
carcasses and occasionally they get chicken thighs or pork button
bones (mostly meat with a few small bones in). Sometimes I give them
mixed organ meats but they are not too keen on this.
I feed them once a day (noon) and Maggie eats about 12 ounces, while
Gypsy eats about 24 ounces.
This is about 2% of there estimated, ideal, adult body weight.
They both really enjoy the raw food but most of the time their poops
are quite runny.
They have access to outside until about 11:00 pm.
They sleep in the kitchen and recently one of them (we suspect Gypsy)
has been pooping a lot on the floor and the blankets during the night.
We can't blame her if she has loose stools but my wife is getting very
upset and blames the raw food.
It doesn't seem to matter what I have fed them, even with chicken
carcasses that have a bigger percentage of bones than there should be.
This is supposed to harden up their poops.
The only thing that sticks out is that they play in the garden a lot
and they bite branches and stalks off the flowers and fruit bushes and
chew them up. Maybe these are some kind of laxative? They also eat
lots of grass.
Is it normal to have loose stools most of the time? Maybe I am feeding
them too much.
Can someone please advise as my wife is determined to go to kibble or
get rid of the dogs.

Thanks for any responses.

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:43 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptrsrgnt" <ptrsrgnt@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, my name is Peter and my wife and I have two labradoodles.

> They have been on raw since we got them and their main diet
> is chicken
> carcasses and occasionally they get chicken thighs or pork button
> bones (mostly meat with a few small bones in). Sometimes I give
> them mixed organ meats but they are not too keen on this.

> I feed them once a day (noon) and Maggie eats about 12 ounces,
> while Gypsy eats about 24 ounces.

> They both really enjoy the raw food but most of the time
> their poops are quite runny.

> It doesn't seem to matter what I have fed them, even with chicken
> carcasses that have a bigger percentage of bones than there
> should be.
> This is supposed to harden up their poops.

Has this problem (runny stools) always been there or is it a recent
development? When did you switch to once a day feeding? Perhaps
they are a little young for that.

The regulars on here who know me know I don't often say this but
your dogs need a lot more meat. They are eating almost nothing but
bone and that is just not healthy. Perhaps I am mistaking what you
are calling carcasses. Do you mean whole chickens or are they
chicken frames? I suspect you are feeding frames. I was wrong one
other time and this may be the second. :) :) :)

Normally increasing bone content will harden stools but there must
be enough meat to actually create a stool to harden.

Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it
at http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF
format for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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9. dead chicken carcass question
Posted by: "vonbrendenrotts" vonbrendenrotts@hotmail.com vonbrendenrotts
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT))

we have a small chicken farm that we raise for meat. we also raw feed
our dogs of cours. I am wondering somtimes meat birds suddenly die of
heart attacks ect... now , I have been throwing them away. but it
seems like such a waist. would it be safe to give to the dogs if it's
already dead??? The ones we give to our dogs had been killed by us.

if anybody knows more about this please let me know.

thanks,
Brenda Dumesnil

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT))

This is TOTALLY normal! He might be self-regulating,
or maybe he just isn't hungry right now. You could
maybe try feeding him again later on. If he still
doesn't eat, just wait until tomorrow.
My Poe (9 month old german shepherd/husky) has been
fed raw for about 2 weeks, and for the last 2 days has
just been licking her chicken, not eating it.
I just waited 20 minutes, then picked it up and put it
away.
Finally today I put it down and she ate nearly half of
it.

Some dogs just need to wait until they're really
hungry before they eat!

Nathalie

Today though my bigger Hav only
> licked his wings and
> wouldn't chew them up. After awhile I picked his up
> and put it away.
> Should I be worried.? Is this normal to sometimes
> eat a meal? Any
> thoughts.
> Jenna
>
>

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Messages in this topic (7)
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11a. Re: deworming
Posted by: "tamarabajema" tamarabajema@yahoo.ca tamarabajema
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Nope...never unless you have a known heavy infestation that is
adversely
> affecting the health of your dog.
>
How do you tell if your dog has worms in the early stage. I know by the
time they get a pot belly, and there are worms in their feces, it is
already a heavy infestation. I don't want to do irreversible damage.
Thanks
tamara

Messages in this topic (4)
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