[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11760

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Anxiety
From: Kathy McCusker
1b. Re: Anxiety
From: Bearhair
1c. Re: Anxiety
From: Patrice Quinn

2a. Re: Beef..
From: Bearhair
2b. Re: Beef..
From: Bearhair
2c. Re: Beef..
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
From: cujo1012

4a. Natures Menu raw diet.
From: admiralsagilitydogs
4b. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
From: Daisy Foxworth

5a. Re: licking but not eating.
From: carnesbill

6a. Chicken frames
From: Jenna Mahoney
6b. Re: Chicken frames
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: mechanically cut bone
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: question about pork legs
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: question about pork legs
From: Vickie

9a. Tuna
From: geraldinebutterfield
9b. Re: Tuna
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
From: carnesbill

12.1. Re: ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
From: Patrice Quinn

13a. Re: Eggs gave bad gas..
From: Bearhair

14a. Re: deworming
From: carnesbill

15a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: carnesbill
15b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Karen Swanay
15c. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
From: Cathy

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Anxiety
Posted by: "Kathy McCusker" kmccusker72@hotmail.com kathym14456
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 5:38 am ((PDT))

Is it normal for those new to raw feeding to have some anxiety . I got up this am to my dog
having had an accident on the floor. He may have cried to go out but I didnt hear him. It was
loose and he did have some watery stool outside. It's not uncontrollable. He didn't eat the
amount he would normally eat for breakfast but he seems satisfied. I did introduce a new
meat yesterday and forgot and gave him something new at dinner time. My bad. My kids say I
worry too much about him, but I just want him to be as healthy as possible.Thanks for letting
me vent. Kathy

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Anxiety
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

Kathy wrote:

>Is it normal for those new to raw feeding to have some anxiety .

600 messages in one week . . . yeah, there's some anxiety!

>I got up this am to my dog
>having had an accident on the floor. He may have cried to go out but I didnt hear him. It was
>loose and he did have some watery stool outside. It's not uncontrollable. He didn't eat the
>amount he would normally eat for breakfast but he seems satisfied. I did introduce a new
>meat yesterday and forgot and gave him something new at dinner time. My bad.

Good analysis and diagnosis! Sounds like you (and he) are doing great!

>My kids say I
>worry too much about him, but I just want him to be as healthy as possible.Thanks for letting
>me vent.

Oh, they're just jealous!

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Anxiety
Posted by: "Patrice Quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Lora, you are a HOOT! I love reading your posts--by the way, they are
pretty helpful too! Patrice "dachsiegirl" Quinn

-------Original Message-------

From: Bearhair
Date: 7/4/2007 6:40:50 AM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Anxiety

Kathy wrote:

>Is it normal for those new to raw feeding to have some anxiety .

600 messages in one week . . . yeah, there's some anxiety!

>I got up this am to my dog
>having had an accident on the floor. He may have cried to go out but I
didnt hear him. It was
>loose and he did have some watery stool outside. It's not uncontrollable.
He didn't eat the
>amount he would normally eat for breakfast but he seems satisfied. I did
introduce a new
>meat yesterday and forgot and gave him something new at dinner time. My bad

Good analysis and diagnosis! Sounds like you (and he) are doing great!

>My kids say I
>worry too much about him, but I just want him to be as healthy as possible
Thanks for letting
>me vent.

Oh, they're just jealous!

Lora
Evanston, IL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Beef..
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

Chrissy wrote:

>Ok I got the sales add today, it is for beef chuck steaks or roast, blade or center cut for $1.27lb. Now these with the bones should be deboned before giving to the dogs?

Try asking the meat guy if he has any in the back that hasn't been cut-up
yet, for the same price. Tell him you're looking for a roast with the whole
bone, not sawn.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Beef..
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:42 am ((PDT))

Chrissy wrote:

>Ok I got the sales add today, it is for beef chuck steaks or roast, blade or center cut for $1.27lb. Now these with the bones should be deboned before giving to the dogs?

If the bone is sawn, it may be dangerously sharp.

As we know from our studies <grin>, beef chuck comes from the shoulder and
neck. A "blade" steak or roast comes from the shoulder blade. These are
perilously close to being weight-bearing bones, so I would monitor carefully
when fed.

>http://www.beefretail.org/uDocs/urmis/contents/beef.pdf page 10

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Beef..
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Chrissy" <hylesrayburn@...> wrote:
>
> Ok I got the sales add today, it is for beef chuck steaks or roast,
blade or center cut for $1.27lb. Now these with the bones should be
deboned before giving to the dogs?
*****
Hoo ha! The ad flyer from FoodsCo here in Sacatomatoes has the same
deal. A good deal it is, too. I always debone these cuts--they're
sliced thin which produces bones that look like daggers. It's my
preference to get boneless chuck roasts, but heck, it's hard to say no
to beef for $1.27/lb.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
Posted by: "cujo1012" knuj101@cinci.rr.com cujo1012
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

Chrissy,

I've bee doing this on purpose. I put the frozen meat on the hot tup
in the sun for a couple of hours (it has been more) and my shelties
love their nice, warm dinner.

Darla

I had forgot all about it, the freezer being outside it was exposed to
the heat of the day. By time I remember to feed the roast to the dogs
it had set out about 6 hours. I opened it up and it looked cooked....
I was hesitant to feed it to them but ya know they ate it up like it
was good stuff! A few hours in the summer sun can almost cook a roast!
>
>
> Chrissy

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Natures Menu raw diet.
Posted by: "admiralsagilitydogs" admiralsagilitydogs@yahoo.co.uk admiralsagilitydogs
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:41 am ((PDT))

Hello, im new to feeding the Raw diet, we are doing the Natures Menu
version. (www.naturesmenu.co.uk)

we have only JUST started feeding it and we're still unsure on what we
should be feeding and in what quantities.

On the Natures Munu site it recommends to feed, raw meat liquidised
vegetables/fruit and add raw bones twice a week and chicken wings
twice a week, too add a vitimin supplment, and heart/liver/kidney once
a week. We also add sardines and wisked egg.

Any help and advice gratefully recieved, please either reply to this
topic or email me privatly at: admiralsagilitydogs(at)yahoo.co.uk

Thankyou

Sophie.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Natures Menu raw diet.
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))

Hi Sophie, welcome. Since Naturesmenu is apparently designed to add
whole meats with bones, why not cut out all the fuss and just feed raw,
without any of the veggies or sugars or other supplements that they
don't need? I started my cat on something like that, but it was to
transition her to raw. If your cat (or dog) will eat bone and large
pieces of meat you're home free. You don't have to go to that extra
bother. Just keep up a good variety, and an appropriate ratio over
time of meat, bone and organ, and maybe fish oil. That's all they need
and so much less for you to organize and calculate.

Daisy

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:14 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@> wrote:
> >Sandee,
> Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought since my dogs are only 10lbs,
> that chicken wings were a good start for them.

Jenna,
Since I have Great Danes, I am not used to small dogs. If your dogs
are such a size that swallowing a wing would be pretty near
impossible, then wings are great. I feed them to my cats regularly.

Betty,
Legs are fine, no problem. I feed them to my cats all the time. I
buy at least one package of legs every week.

The thing about raw feeding is that nothing is carved in stone. You
won't find any two people that feed exactly the same thing. The
only carved in stone rule is to feed raw meat, bones, and organs
from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone, and some
organs. Start slow and add new proteins slowly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Chicken frames
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:14 am ((PDT))

What exactly do you get when you order a chicken frame?
Jenna

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Chicken frames
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@...>
wrote:
>
> What exactly do you get when you order a chicken frame?
> Jenna

You get the chicken body after wings, neck/head, legs/thighs, and the
human usuable breast meat has been removed.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: mechanically cut bone
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@...>
wrote:
>
> Is it all right to feed mechanically cut bone?

Too sharp.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: question about pork legs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

"Vickie" <dals4creekside@...> wrote:
My question is, how many of you feed pork legs
> and how in the heck do you get that skin off it?
*****
I'm not clear on what you mean by "leg" since as I understand pork the
leg consists of a ham, a shank, and the foot. I do buy "long feet"
from an Asian market, which are trotters cut well up into the shank
area. I don't get the skin off, that's the job of my dogs. Sometimes
I will score the skin to make it easier to tackle. My dogs may eat
them completely, or eat them down to the tootsies, or get full/lose
interest somewhere in between. I expect these long feet to require
several hours of effort.

Since long feet are pretty inexpensive I am likely to feed them several
times a month. (Since I only feed 15 or so meals a month, it's
possible that long feet may comprise a third of my dogs' meals. Or
not.)

I got some ox
> tails on sale at an organic market, but they were cut in about 1 1/2
> inch pieces. Have any of you fed these in that proportion before?
*****
The only way I'd feed an oxtail is completely totally whole. Needless
to say, my dogs rarely get oxtail.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: question about pork legs
Posted by: "Vickie" dals4creekside@comcast.net vivkie
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))

> *****
> I'm not clear on what you mean by "leg" since as I understand pork
the
> leg consists of a ham, a shank, and the foot.

Thanks for answering Chris

I would say the legs we got with the pork purchase include the feet and
part of the shank. I will score the skin when we give them the other
leg. Thanks

Vickie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Tuna
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

I read that raw salmon is ok for dogs if it's been frozen for a period
of time. How about fresh raw tuna? Do I need to freeze this first too
or can I give it fresh never frozen?

Thanks everyone,
geraldine

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Tuna
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

>How about fresh raw tuna?

Hi.My understanding is that no raw salmon and raw Trout from north pacific area ;from Alaska to CA area,is not good to feed for salmon poisoning while you can give the raw salmon from chile or something.

For tuna,I understad as never feed it to dog due high Mercury. I love Raw Tuna;Sashimi,but not to dog.

Am I wrong,everyone?

yassy

---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Dog ate a seashell...problem?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

"wisslewj" <wisslewj@...> wrote:
> I was wondering first off if there is anything poisonous to dogs in
> that shell and second if this is a cause of concern or can their
> stomach digest that? The end is pretty pointy and I don't want it to
> puncture anything. I know bone digests well enough, but shell?
>
> Should I give him some meat to raise stomach acid in the hopes of
> digesting it or just wait for it to pass out?
*****
Given the passing of time, I expect Ma Nature has provided answers
already. If not, it's my guess everything ought to be fine. The shell
was small and if your Chi can digest bones it should be able to make
quick work of the shell. And as with eggshells, whatever wasn't
digested will be excreted.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Poop(less) problem?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
>
> Shelby (just under 50lbs, female, unspayed, American
> Bulldog/Pit Bull
> Terrier) has not pooped since we started (we are on day 3).

I'm sure he has. You have fed him nothing to stop him up. Like you
said, he could have pooped and eaten it. Wouldn't necessarily been
any residue and you wouldn't notice.

> Chico (75lbs, male, neutered, Yellow Lab/Pit/possible Sharpei) has
> pooped some pretty normal poops, but less often (which I hear
> is how
> it is supposed to be).

It is but it usually won't get that way without bones in the diet.

> Holly (55lbs, female, spayed, black lab/mutt) has had diarrhea.
> So bad
> that she didn't have a chance to tell us before it was too late
> yesterday (yes, we had taken her out in the morning, and it was
> a few
> hours later and she messed the carpet).

Probably because of the amount of fat in ground beef. Having
digestive upset is not unusual in newly switched dogs particularly
if there is no bone in the diet, even more particularly if there is
a lot of fat.

I think you need to do some research. Check out my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding -- Read the book "Work Wonders"
by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at

http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF format
for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale
> anndrea (with 2 n's) and her crew
>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12.1. Re: ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
Posted by: "Patrice Quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

Chris, I'm sorry if I've done something inappropriate here in the forum. I
m a newbie to forums as well as raw feeding. How do I get to RawChat?
Again, sorry if I created a problem. Patrice Quinn

-------Original Message-------

From: costrowski75
Date: 7/3/2007 7:42:31 AM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] ADMIN/Re: itchy dog

Please take all Nzyme discussion to RawChat. Further postings to
Rawfeeding will be summarily dismissed.
Chris O
Moderation Team

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Eggs gave bad gas..
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

Andrea wrote:

>I've been known to feed Geiger pork or egg before family get
>togethers just for the fun of watching people's reactions when he
>pretends he's a skunk. It's sick, I know. (=

But not entirely uncommon for us . . . someone else was considering leaving
her half-eaten pig head on the TOP of the garbage can, just for fun, and I
want to stick it on a stake in the yard with a citronella candle atop.

Were we sick before and this has just given us new opportunities, or ?

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: deworming
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@...>
wrote:
>
> is deworming more neccessary on a raw diet, do you need to do
> it more
> than once a year?

Deworm your dog when he has worms. Not necessary unless there are
actually worms there.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
Chelsea,
Your vet is full of it. Like most vets, she has almost no knowledge
of canine nutrtion and has a lot of old wives' tales.

> I have a fantastic repo vet that breeds danes and supplements
> her kibble with raw(no bone).?

That alone should tell you how much she knows about canine nutrition.

> She told me if I could not tell her the calcium-phosphorous
> ratio of what I am feeding then I should not be feeding it to
> any dogs whos bone plates had not fully developed(fused)
> and surely not a pregnant bitch.?

Tell her when she can tell you the calcium-phosphorous ratio in HER
OWN diet, you will do the research and find out. :) If its such an
important ratio, she should be constantly aware of that ratio in the
food she eats daily. If she says she is taking supplements to
balance it out, she doesn't have a clue and isn't in balance either,
whatever "balance" means. I know of hundreds of puppies who have
been raised on the prey model raw diet. I personally have raised a
Great Dane puppy from 12weeks to his present age of 2 1/2 years on a
raw diet and not a single health or bone development problem yet.

> She said I am going to cause all sorts of bone issues
> including pano, OCD, and a bunch more she told me.?

Old wives' tales. I have never heard of a raw fed puppy having a
confirmed case of pano.

> She also said I could harm the fetuses.? Now, I am scared
> to death.?

I haven't had any experience with pregnant dogs so I can't help you
with firsthand experience there but think about it. How in the
world did wolves survive as a species for millions of years if that
was true. Don't you think they all ate raw while pregnant? I think
more old wives' tales.

> Some say feed bone, some say only in the beginning, some say
> give her whatever she will eat; and she knows whats best...?

My thinking on this subject is that since there is disagreement on
exactly how to feed a pregnant dog or new puppies, it just doesn't
make much difference. I suspect "whatever she will eat" is the most
correct answer. I'm sure some raw feeding breeders will jump in
pretty soon and give you some guidance.

> I have heard several people that had dogs come down
> with eclampsia, YIKES!?

I'm betting those people are not raw feeders. One very good piece
of advice I can give you that is the absolute truth. Always be wary
of advice you get about raw feeding from people who have never fed
raw.

> In general, right now, should I just continue?

I suspect so.

> Someone please helpme with what she should absolutely have
> and also the things she should NOT have for her and her pups.?

There are no absolutes. I can tell you for sure that pups should be
fed just as adults. You might want to smash the bones the first few
weeks after weening but other than that, puppies are no different
than dogs. By 13 weeks, my Dane puppy was even eating the same
amount as the adults.

> I am so nervous...? Thank you ahead of time for any advice you
have.

Don't be so nervous ... Dogs have been having pups for a zillion and
one years. Its a pretty difficult thing to screw up.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

15b. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

Wow, that vet is a PRO at scare tactics!! Let me tell you a couple of
things...

1.) Pano is primarily seen in male GSDs. I can occur in other dogs but
that's where it is seen in it's highest %. I had a male GSD with Pano and
he was bred from two kibble eating dogs, weaned onto dog chow, and fed
Science Diet (I didn't know better back then.) He suffered for a long time
with it. I do not believe that having pano is something that comes about in
utero. It comes from feeding an inappropriate diet to a growing dog. So,
the state of your pups with regard to Pano are none of your business,
concern, or in your control unless you are keeping the entire litter. (Bad
vet for telling you that...I'd have ripped her head clean off from that
one.)

2.) People have been breeding dogs for thousands of years on scraps and
dead animals. I know we frequently say "But wolves..." but that argument is
shot down by vets because dogs aren't wolves they say. Well dogs are still
dogs! The Egyptians didn't have kibble to feed their lactating bitches.
The Afghani's then (and now) don't have kibble to feed their Afghan hounds.
The Inuit don't have kibble to feed their Malamutes (some do but some still
don't) and they produce big dogs that work hard. Anyone, any vet or dog
owner you meet, if they are over 50 yrs old, ask them what their
grandparents fed the dogs they had. They will most likely tell you scraps
and dead animals. Shame on your vet for telling you those things. Dogs
have been mating and whelping pups since the dawn of time without Hills
there to make sure the litter was healthy.

3.) A prime problem with bitches that is NOT helped by kibble is
eclampsia. That's why on top of switching the bitch to puppy kibble vets
tell owners to add cottage cheese or calcium tablets. Yes, you do not want
to be feeding anything where the Ca:Phos ratio is upside down 1:2, 0.5:4,
because that would leech Ca from your dog, luckily bones don't come like
that. They are always (as far as I've been able to see) 2:1 or there
abouts. And your vet ought to have known this already. So either she
doesn't know what she's talking about or she was deliberately trying to
scare you because she thinks you don't know what you are talking about.
Either way she's a bad vet.

And a final word on puppies. My Yeager (a 4 yr old American Staffordshire
Terrier) was kibble raised from kibble parents until I got him and he's been
raw fed. He grew so slowly! He didn't even have that awkward teenage
phase. He is a gorgeous dog. Well muscled, well built, solid hips, elbows,
and his head and neck are gorgeous. He has had no issues whatsoever and I'm
not particularly careful about his diet. He refuses to eat whole prey, he
refuses organ meat, and has now decided that he'd rather fast 6 days than
eat chicken. (It is NOT true that a dog will always eat btw...that's
repeated here on this list often and it's untrue. Most will, some won't.)
He enjoys whole heads when I can get them (much easier for me in ND when I
could leave a whole deer head outside and it was -50F but here in Fl, well I
don't want to smell that!) This diet isn't as complicated as some people
make it sound, with their thousands of dollars in supplements and bizarre
recipes that take hours to make. It's nature. It's food. Shame on your
vet for trying to scare you into buying processed foods.

You also should know, that veterinarians get little nutritional education in
vet school and their text books are written by Hills. Imagine your
pediatrician being educated by McDonald's. Now imagine taking your 3 yr old
daughter to him and telling him "Oh, she eats carrots, and lean chicken, and
brown rice!" He would say..."My God woman! You are going to kill that
child! She needs a balanced diet, and you can't possibly do that on your
own! What do you know about nutrition???? She needs to be getting at least
6 Happy Meals a week or she's not going to grow properly and she will
probably be retarded." It's the same line, just different words. You
doctor harps on you to eat more fresh fruits and veggies, more lean
protein. Less processed foods. Why would it be any different for your
dog? Processed foods are bad for all critters.

Karen *former vet tech, raw feeder 7+ yrs

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

15c. Re: repo vet officially freaked me out...
Posted by: "Cathy" camahr@charter.net camahr
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> Hi guys!? I have written to the rawbreeder list too, but I have
gotten so many different opinions on what to do.? My female was bred
surgically Monday with forzen semen.? I have a fantastic repo vet
that breeds danes and supplements her kibble with raw(no bone).? She
told me if I could not tell her the calcium-phosphorous ratio of what
I am feeding then I should not be feeding it to any dogs whos bone
plates had not fully developed(fused) and surely not a pregnant
bitch.? She said I am going to cause all sorts of bone issues
including pano, OCD, and a bunch more she told me.? She also said I
could harm the fetuses.? Now, I am scared to death.?

First things first! Take a deep breath, breath out, relax. Ask
yourself this question, can parents of any teenage boy tell you the
calcium/phophorus ratio of what he is eating? Can the average
pregnant woman tell you the calcium/phosphorus ratio of every meal
she eats? Well I sure couldn't and I've given birth to 2 sons who
are now healthy grown men. I have also bred and raised Chessapeake
Bay Retrievers for the last 10 years. We have been feeding raw for
nearly 11 years.

Guidelines for feeding your pregnant bitch are really not all that
different from her non pregnant state for the first month. Variety,
meat, organ, and bone just as you have been feeding. In the second
month of pregancy she will gradually increase her intake. Organ
meats, liver especially are a good source of B vitamins and must be
available to your pregnant bitch.

In the last month of preganancy do not increase the amount of bone,
rather give her normal pre pregnancy amounts. And after delivery
then increase the amount of bone slightly to help with milk
production.

Your bitches body, can and should metabolize and move calcium from
her bones into her blood stream to meet her calcium needs. The on
set of lactation brings on an extreme need for calcium, which her
body metabolizes from her bones. This need for calcium can not
immediately be met by diet so her body must be ready to meet this
need. If the bitch is supplemented with high levels of calcium
during pregnancy, or her bone intake is increased too far, her body
is not metabolically primed to mobilize calcium from her bones.
Therefore, when the demands for calcium are suddenly and dramatically
elevated at the initiation of lactation, she is unable to keep up
with the metabolic demands, which can result in serious health
complications.

We are 3rd generation raw fed Chessies now. Litter sizes have been
large 10 to 13 puppies per litter. Mom nurses them for 8 to 12 weeks
and Mom gains weight while nursing. Puppies are introduced to large
pieces of raw meety bones starting at 4 weeks of age.

Cathy M.
Retrievers Etc.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------