Feed Pets Raw Food

Wednesday, January 2, 2008

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12451

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. questions about feeding raw
From: bethhugh7
1b. Re: questions about feeding raw
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: questions about feeding raw
From: Lisa-Gray Vick
1d. Re: questions about feeding raw
From: Yasuko herron
1e. Re: questions about feeding raw
From: carnesbill

2.1. Re: Newbie
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: good bones for teeth cleaning
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: costrowski75

5. Leaving RMB's out overnight - indoors?
From: Susanne MacLeod

6a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: Lisa-Gray Vick
6b. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: Di
6c. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: runs
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Chicago Area
From: godkrittersnkids

9a. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: carnesbill
9b. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: costrowski75

10.1. Re: liver
From: Yasuko herron

11a. poo consistency
From: Amy Tracy
11b. Re: poo consistency
From: Sandee Lee
11c. Re: poo consistency
From: carnesbill

12a. RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: mcburkel
12b. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: Giselle
12d. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
12e. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: carnesbill


Messages
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1a. questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "bethhugh7" bethhugh7@yahoo.com bethhugh7
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:56 pm ((PST))

hi i have recently started to feed raw and i read alot on this site. i
have went to alot of the links posted here. im learning lots so please
bear with me. question 1.is... when feeding raw meaty bones is their a
high insedince for the dog to get hurt inside of its body(stomach,
intestines) from bone fragments?
question 2.... has anyone out there got a dog that has been on raw a
long time? because i want to know if what i have been reading about the
raw diet eventually makes the dogs sick true? like from
parasites ,worms ,and pancreatitus?
because most of all i want my family of dogs to be healthy and live a
long time.
also ,if there is that much bad stuff in the raw meat will cooking it
even make it safe for humans.
last question.... if they are eating ecoli,salmanila, parasites is
it safe to kiss them and let them lick you?
i know these question are probley stupid but im a little nervous.
sorry but thanks in advance for your help. beth and her bratts

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:16 pm ((PST))

1. Nope....if that was the case we wouldn't have dogs today.

2. Same as #1...if that were true, we wouldn't have dogs today. None of
those things listed are caused by feeding raw. I have only been feeding raw
for 8 years, many on this list much longer.

Last question. If you let them kiss you before, it's certainly fine
now...probably safer. E. coli, salmonella and parasites are everywhere
regardless of what is fed but a rawfed mouth is far better than the bacteria
laden mouths of those being fed kibble.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Lisa-Gray Vick" sunbeams412@yahoo.com sunbeams412
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:06 pm ((PST))

These are great questions. I am new as well and quite nervous. I'm not looking to be forced or persuaded that it's the "right" thing to feed but but answers to some of these same types of questions you are posing so I can have a comfort level and be educated "all-around". No question is ever stupid I tell my students.
Lisa

bethhugh7 <bethhugh7@yahoo.com> wrote:
hi i have recently started to feed raw and i read alot on this site. i
have went to alot of the links posted here. im learning lots so please
bear with me. question 1.is... when feeding raw meaty bones is their a
high insedince for the dog to get hurt inside of its body(stomach,
intestines) from bone fragments?
question 2.... has anyone out there got a dog that has been on raw a
long time? because i want to know if what i have been reading about the
raw diet eventually makes the dogs sick true? like from
parasites ,worms ,and pancreatitus?
because most of all i want my family of dogs to be healthy and live a
long time.
also ,if there is that much bad stuff in the raw meat will cooking it
even make it safe for humans.
last question.... if they are eating ecoli,salmanila, parasites is
it safe to kiss them and let them lick you?
i know these question are probley stupid but im a little nervous.
sorry but thanks in advance for your help. beth and her bratts


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Messages in this topic (5)
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1d. Re: questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:09 pm ((PST))

> when feeding raw meaty bones is their a high insedince for the dog to get hurt inside of its body(stomach, intestines) from bone fragments?

Hi,Beth. You may heard a lot about "don't give adog a bone" in the past,but dangerous bone is COOKED bone not raw bone.Cooked bone I read sometimes can get stuck inside the boddy and,I experienced very very miserable diarrhea episode of my dog before knowing better on this. 2 years ago,I fed Ham bone that wasleft from christmasdinner thinking this would be jackpot for my dog.Of course,my dog loved it and gubbled done so much but,next day was so miserable,she left golf ball sized round hard stone-like poo often times andon our way home from in laws house,she did major diarrhea and next 2 days,she messed in cage(we were too late to notice her signe) and she had to take a bath 2am with us human having sleepy eyes .. Raw bones are ok,digested pretty well.

Things you like to avoid is bone from big animals that supprt big weight with bone such as beef knuckle bone,feumer bone,marrow bone.Those are teeth wearer and teeth breaker as well. I never feed them.

However, I think supervising dogs meal is essential especially when you just started feeding bone. It is not just about safety but also, you can learn lots from just observing dogs. like eating habits;gulper or not.If one needs to feed bigger sized meal or not.Andyou sometimes need to rescue yourdog; my dog once waseating lamb neck(with added meat of course) and it was just one time thing in the past but she got the neck bone stuck in teeth and,pawing at her muzzel trying to get rid of it. If I were not there,I am not sure waht outcome I would encounter but,I helped her get the bone piece out from her teeth. I am not saying you need to all thetime but observing can help some situation.

> question 2.... the raw diet eventually makes the dogs sick true?

No,dog intestin is much shorter than us human andbefore the salmonella infect thedog,dog poop out. On the other hand,human has long intestine so,if one ate something with salmonella,much easier to get sick from it.

>i want my family of dogs to be healthy and live a long time.

Then,this feeding is a way to go.Raw meat is free of additive,preservative,coloring,flavoring,any kinds of unnnecessary spraying of vitamins like kibble and,much healthier diet. Dog can get nutrient from form of whole foods rather than the ones human created it,damaging nutrient contents by cooking with high heat and using not great source of meat and with unnecessary carb....By feeding rawfeeding,your dog gets stronger immune system and should live better than now.

my dog do not get monthly flea med as well and, still healthy as horse.I find no flea.Andcost isshinier and softer andafter petting her,my hands neverstink like after petting other dogs and breath is not stinky doggy breath... You would see such improvement in your dogs.


>also ,if there is that much bad stuff in the raw meat will cooking it
even make it safe for humans.

I think cooking is done for safety handling for human due human has longer intestine than dogs andeasy to get sick.

> if they are eating ecoli,salmanila, parasites is it safe to kiss them and let them lick you?

If it were not after eating cat poo or tripe,I let her lick me as much asshe wants. She likes licking my bare foot when I take socks off and likes to lick my forehead when I am laying down with her but I let her to her hearts content.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (5)
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1e. Re: questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bethhugh7" <bethhugh7@...> wrote:
>
> 1.is... when feeding raw meaty bones is their a
> high insedince for the dog to get hurt inside of its body(stomach,
> intestines) from bone fragments?

No, kibble has only been around for 50 years or so and only popular
for less than that. What do you think dogs ate before kibble came
along?

> question 2.... has anyone out there got a dog that has been
> on raw a
> long time? because i want to know if what i have been
> reading about the raw diet eventually makes the dogs sick true?

Like my previous answer. Dogs have been eating raw meat, bones and
organs for 64 million years. If it made them sick, they would have
been extinct by now.

> like from
> parasites ,worms ,and pancreatitus?
> because most of all i want my family of dogs to be healthy
> and live a long time.

Thats why we all feed raw. We want the same thing.

> last question.... if they are eating ecoli,salmanila,
> parasites is
> it safe to kiss them and let them lick you?

Yes it is.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:08 pm ((PST))

Susan,

Fruits and veggies have no place in a carnivore's diet...so no, there are no
supplements necessary to replace those items. Everything a carnivore
requires is found in their natural diet...meat, bones and organs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "skcreedon" <skcreedon@aol.com>


Oh THANK YOU so much....my head has stopped throbing at the thought of
those recipes. Any supplements if there are no fruit and vegetable?
You a a headache saver. :-)


Messages in this topic (221)
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3a. Re: good bones for teeth cleaning
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:18 pm ((PST))

"Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> Any suggestions on the best type and species bones for scouring the
> teeth?
*****
We hit this topic recently. You might want to check the list archives.

The best bones period are those slathered with meat. Any bone that is
big enough to challenge the dog and meaty enough to require effort will
clean teeth. Some less meaty bones--like uncut sections of pork necks,
slabs of beef or pork ribs, and perhaps even a knuckle if its use is
supervised--can provide a good workout and some teeth scrubbing
although the meat meal will be a light one.

But bones will not necessarily clean the gumline or tackle the
incisors. For that you need to feed body parts that your dog literally
can sink its teeth into. Probably the easiest way to clean teeth and
keep teeth clean is to feed a variety of meaty body parts, some with
bone, some without.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:35 pm ((PST))

"divasdesignerstore" <divasdesignerstore@...> wrote:
>> But at lunch time I give them all a dish of peeled carrots, apples,
> green beans, pumpkin, sweet potatoes, etc. I vary it for them. They
> don't actually digest this stuff when it's fed like this, doesn't
> really add any pounds on them either, great thing for pugs, but it
> makes them feel full enough that they can wait until their next meal.
*****
Oh dear.
This is quite distressing. I cannot imagine filling a dog up with such
inappropriate items just to make them feel full. You should feed them
the amount of real--bio-available--food they should be getting and
without a single twinge of remorse refuse to feed them one gram of
anything else. They can get over themselves. So can you.

This vegetarian lunch is not healthy for them and the fact that you
know they can't digest it only makes the practice more bizarre. They
may not gain weight on this menu but they certainly can have impressive
digestive disturbances.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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5. Leaving RMB's out overnight - indoors?
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:07 pm ((PST))

I have often wondered what to do about this. When I feed, I often feed whatever is on hand.
Some chopped up meat, maybe some ground whatever, but I compliment it with a nice raw
meaty bone. Tonight it's a honkin' slice of a deer neck, complete with a good amount of
meat surrounding it. It's almost as big as the kidlettes heads!! LOL (French Bulldogs).
Anyhow it's about minus 1000 here in Toronto Canada, and during the winter we feed
indoors. So I was wondering to those long term raw feeders, do you leave a rmb out
overnight on their feeding blankie, or do you guys pick it up and put it in the fridge, when it
comes time to go to beddies?
Thanks,
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "Lisa-Gray Vick" sunbeams412@yahoo.com sunbeams412
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:08 pm ((PST))

I've heard that the dogs will NOT get salmonella but what about us humans? I doubt seriously that I'll get my 1 yr. energetic sheltie to eat in one spot. There are young kids all around here and on the floor, etc. To lay down a tablecloth for her to eat on and then pick it up and reuse several times before washing still doesn't register with me because her paws are going to be all over it as well as the meat and bones and then all over us and the house. I know it works for people out there so I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just asking how does it work? I want to learn. Thanks.
Lisa

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Alexis" <alexis78@...> wrote:
>
> I'm concerned about the possibility of salmonella, etc.

Funny thing is that we get daily posts from
people "concerned", "worried", "scared to death", "terrified", etc
about salmonella. I don't remember ever seeing a post saying "My
dog has salmonella" You will soon learn that samonella, E-coli, etc
is just not a problem when feeding raw assuming you wash your hands
as you would after handling raw meat for humans.

> My family thinks
> I'm nuts for feeding him raw meat and obviously the indoor
> thing was a mistake....any suggestions for keeping
> the mess 'contained.'

I have 2 Great Danes that eat every meal inside. They both eat
wherever they want. When they finish eating, they will clean their
own mess then swap places and clean the other dog's place. I think
the secret is to make sure when they finish, they still want
more. :) :) :)

Many people will babygate the dogs in the kitchen, many feed in
crates, many will put down a towel or plastic table cloth or shower
curtain. It's easy to teach the dog to eat on something in a
certain place.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


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Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "Di" fleabite001@yahoo.com fleabite001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:10 pm ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign emails and also trim them - this one trimmed for you by a mod.


I feed my dogs outside.


---
> Many people will babygate the dogs in the kitchen, many feed in
> crates, many will put down a towel or plastic table cloth or shower
> curtain. It's easy to teach the dog to eat on something in a
> certain place.
>


Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:50 pm ((PST))

Lisa,

Salmonella is everywhere regardless of what is fed. If you didn't get sick
when your dogs were eating kibble, there is no more danger now. The main
concern is the stools (regardless of diet)...practice normal hygiene and
don't worry about it!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Lisa-Gray Vick" <sunbeams412@yahoo.com>


> I've heard that the dogs will NOT get salmonella but what about us humans?
I doubt seriously that I'll get my 1 yr. energetic sheltie to eat in one
spot. There are young kids all around here and on the floor, etc. To lay
down a tablecloth for her to eat on and then pick it up and reuse several
times before washing still doesn't register with me because her paws are
going to be all over it as well as the meat and bones and then all over us
and the house. I know it works for people out there so I'm not saying it
can't be done. I'm just asking how does it work? I want to learn. Thanks.

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: runs
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:08 pm ((PST))

>We went raw with our two boys (Hagrid and Petey) last week and are on our 9th or 10th day.

Hi,Nanette.Congratulation on switching thye diet to raw. you really would not regret your choice even if you go through occasional detective work like this when dog vomits or runny poo etc.It worth it.

>Pete (80lb mix) - He's been like a real dog with this. We started with chicken backs cause I could get them for free from a farmer I buy our meat from.

free is great but do you notice that you need to add meat to that back you get from farmers each time you feed back to your dogs??Like getting Boneless chicken to go with the back if you will.

it is tempting to see the letter FREE and want to buy the free backs but overall,since you need to add meat to that bony parts,you end up spending more than you probably would if you get a whole poultry.

I recommend to get a whole poultry and cut to portion andfeed.That way,you do not have to buy extra expensive boneless breast for example.

>He takes it and rips it and works it and has been having the perfect stools.

Perfect stool means nothing,Nanette. The poo should reflect the meal the dog ate. Like..if my dog ate heart meal,the color is probably darker and probably little soft. The poo after heart meal is softer than we normally get used to see but,I would not worry because the meal is reflecting poo consistency.

The dog poo is if crumbly,then,you feeding too much bone so,you need to feed more meat.

You mayread lots of times here in this list but dog needs meat more than bone. Dog needs to eat bone but much less meeded than meat itself.

> We switched Pete - the more vivacious and seemingly unranked to turkey backs three days ago. (I cut off most of the carcass and left the back where the meat was) I then mixed in some turkey necks.

Again,if you could,you buy a whole Turkey and cut up to portion and feed. You write Back and Neck,and it seems quite bone-high meal than meat.Are you adding any boneless meal?

>The turkey backs are much meatier than the chicken backs

It probably because of bird size,but if you buy 10lb Turkey for example,you get tonz of meal out of it and you do not have to worry about adding boneless meat to it.


So.... you says you are on 10th reawfeeding day so,Turkey is your choice of second protin source??

> Tonight I was preparing to give him much more meat. I bought chicken breasts and leg/thighs for him tonight. When I got home from work, he had done some squirting in his kennel.

Well... is this after boneless meal is fed? If so,then, either too much food or since hedid not have bone in the meal,he had runny poo maybe? Or,the meat you bought was enhanced with any ways like with broth or salt solution?

> While he was squatting he projectile vomited in the back yard loosing the entire
contents of his morning meal plus, guess what? poop! I went and looked and there was poop in with the turkey and bones.

Maybe Turkey was too much bone to your dog.How much do you feed to your dog?

>Should I do anything else?

I sort of feel that you maybe fed too much new thing all at once. And too much bone in the meal.So,after fasting him,you can feed him combo meal.

Like.. chicken and Turkey. Then,gradually,increase the Turkey portion in the meal.If still having poo problem,you can try removing skin off andafter he does well digested on the meal,you can remove skin less and less and feed as is after that.

>Hagrid - 125lb St. Bernard - Very picky eater (always has been). He doesn't like to chew his food.

Dog does not chew like human and they are like crunch crunch crunch swallow.

> He doesn't like chicken in any form

Maybe he istoo new to texture and smell and taste of raw meat. Kibble is sprayed with tonz of additives or flavoring etc and compare to such meals,,definitely raw meal is quite new andmay need getting used to sort of time for some dogs.

>I gave him some ground pork with his chicken two days ago and he ate the pork.

I think you better off stick with non ground meat of any kind. Hunk of pork meat like roast.
It provides more mental physical excersize and good for teeth too.

>So tonight I went and got some pork ribs (country style with lots of meat - still not enough for when they're transitioned).

So... this dog has been on pork for 10 days now?? Or introduced pork ribs after chicken??

> I put the rib down and he picked it up and dropped it.

When my dog had prob like this on Elk rib,I grabbed kitchen sears and I cut a little (ribboprning the meat still attached to rib bone itself),so that my dog can smell more andshe had no prob with rib after that. I just did coupple of times like this and I do not have to do this anymore and she knows what to do with it.And got used to flavor(I think) too.

>he eats from a raised bowl

My dog eats on food mat not with bowl except Raw egg or liver. Yourdog is much bigger than mine(I have corgi 34lb) so,meal should be bigger than hers. Did you just fed singleton of rib??Did you add boneless meat to it like..pork chop or pork roast or something without bone?Rib only is way too bony meal.

>because he stopped so soon.
Stop catering him and stop to be stiff.Relax anddo not coax him to eat meal. If you give him time and if he knows that is all he gets as meal,then,he would eat it soon. Since meal is complete different thing from his point of view,he probably needs time to get used to raw meat.

And try feed baby step.One new thing at a time after well digested.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Re: Chicago Area
Posted by: "godkrittersnkids" godkrittersnkids@yahoo.com godkrittersnkids
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:08 pm ((PST))

Hi! Keep me in mind and feel free to email me privately...just getting
started here!

Thanks.

Linda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "skcreedon" <skcreedon@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone from the Chicago area ... bulk buy
Susan Creedon, Chicago
>


Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle G. Heimendinger"
<michelle@...> wrote:
>
> Do most folks have any idea of what chemicals are being fed
> to feedlot animals ?

I have heard horror stories. I put as much faith in those stories
as I do in the horror stories I hear about raw feeding.

> I live in WA and get my organic meats directly from a farmer
> I know - he's told me some awful stories.

Let me teach you a very important life lesson. ALWAYS be suspicious
of anything someone tells you if he is going to make money the
decision you make based on the information he gives you. What he
just said is "MY cows are so much superior to the other guy's cows.
Your health, your families health, and your dog's health will be
much better if they eat my cows. You should pay me a much larger
price for my cows because of this."

> BUT, what about all the chemicals (most
> slaughterhouses now chemically spray the carcasses to kill
> the Ecoli 157
> - and that takes a lot) and of course, Antibiotics - that has to
have some long term effect on animals ?

What about the bacteria in raw? What about bones? How can you
balance a diet without veggies? Do see what I'm saying? There are
all kinds of false information floating around all over everywhere
about everythlng. All we can do is look at the information we have
and try to research for information we don't have and them come to a
conclusion.

My conclusion about beef is that although i know there may be some
chemicals in the cows or there may not be. I am sure it is nowhere
nearly as bad as some would have you believe. Eating grocery store
meats is a non issue for me. I don't give it a second thought. I
don't fall for scare tactics. I eat meats from grocery stores and
restaurants most every day. By no means do I buy the story that
giant agribusinesses are out to kill us.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (10)
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9b. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:47 pm ((PST))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:
>
> I'm in yahoo groups... isn't that necessary for this list?
*****
If you are already signed in to Yahoogroups, then you can go to the
rawfeeding list and access the archives. If you joined rawfeeding via
email then you may not have gone the extra mile to join Yahoogroups.
The information at the bottom of your rawfeeding emails will tell you
for sure.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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10.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:09 pm ((PST))

1>mix with Egg
2>Mix with Tripe
3>sear a little only when introduction phase andgradulally less searing
4>feed frozen

You can try these tricks.

Mine hates pork liver,but if it were mixed with RawEgg,she gubbles down.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (55)
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11a. poo consistency
Posted by: "Amy Tracy" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:09 pm ((PST))

Hi, newbie here. We're going into our second month of raw. All is
well, but I have a question about the consistency of my pooch's stool.
Most days she has beautiful poos, but about three times a week she has
a big runny splart (just one giant ugly pile). Sometimes I think it's
egg day, or a new cut of meat. Whatever ... I'm just wondering how
important it is for her stool to be consistent day in and day out.

Also, I'm not super scientific with the feeding. I measure out her
organ amount per week, but otherwise I kind of "wing" it. I eye-ball
her one pound, and just make sure she has lots of meat and the
appropriate amount of bone. I feed her once a day. Does that sound
okay? Or since I'm a newbie should I do more weighing. I am watching
her weight.
Amy and Rosie (momma's little red-headed love pie)


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: poo consistency
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:42 pm ((PST))

Amy,

Don't look! :) Seriously stool consistency is going to vary depending on
what is fed. Bony meals, firmer, lighter stools...meaty meals and organs or
eggs, darker, looser stools. It's all OK!! Sounds like you are doing
great.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Amy Tracy" <amypatriciatracy@gmail.com>


> Hi, newbie here. We're going into our second month of raw. All is
> well, but I have a question about the consistency of my pooch's stool.
> Most days she has beautiful poos, but about three times a week she has
> a big runny splart (just one giant ugly pile). Sometimes I think it's
> egg day, or a new cut of meat. Whatever ... I'm just wondering how
> important it is for her stool to be consistent day in and day out.
>
> Also, I'm not super scientific with the feeding. I measure out her
> organ amount per week, but otherwise I kind of "wing" it. I eye-ball
> her one pound, and just make sure she has lots of meat and the
> appropriate amount of bone. I feed her once a day. Does that sound
> okay? Or since I'm a newbie should I do more weighing. I am watching
> her weight.
> Amy and Rosie (momma's little red-headed love pie)
>


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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: poo consistency
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:55 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy Tracy"
<amypatriciatracy@...> wrote:
>
> I'm just wondering how
> important it is for her stool to be consistent day in and day out.

Stools will certainly not be consistent day in and day out. Stool
consistency depends on what that particular stool is made of.
However, big runny splarts are not part of the game. I suggest you
write down everything you feed her and the stool constancy. Since
this seems to be pretty regular, you should be able to correlate one
with the other. It could be a particular protein source, it could
be too large a meal, it could be a particular treat. If you feed
veggies, I would suspect them. I would also suspect organ days.

> Also, I'm not super scientific with the feeding. I measure out her
> organ amount per week, but otherwise I kind of "wing" it. I
> eye-ball
> her one pound, and just make sure she has lots of meat and the
> appropriate amount of bone.

Eyeball is perfectly ok. Most of us eyeball. However in your
notes, take notice of the volume (large, medium, small). Too much
volume at one time can cause the problem you are having early in the
diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "mcburkel" morsgreatdanes@comcast.net mcburkel
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:09 pm ((PST))

I feed RAW and have been doing it for about 2 years. I first started
with my 1 year old dane. He had no skin issues(staph infection) until
I switched. I spent hundreds of dollars on meds and vet visits to
come to my own conclusion that he was allergic to chicken. Took out
chicken and within a few months it went away with the help of
Cephelexin.

Then I got a second dog and she was weaned to RAW as a pup. I didnt
put my brain cells to use and when I was thawing the packaged meat
some of the juices would leak out of the sack and get on the first
danes food and he got the staph infection again. Then my other dog
(dane also) got the infection. Both were put on Cephelexin and it was
cleared up.

My first dane passed away and I got another dane recently. Well the
second girl started showing small signs of what looks to be the same
infection and now it looks like the puppy is getting it too. Im
beyond frustrated. I try to do whats best and I feel like Im failing.
Im on the verge of just switching back to kibble, but would rather
not.

My danes have alot of white and you can see the skin under the fur
and the skin is reddish blotches about as big as a pencil eraser.
Some of them turn into a bump. Mostly around the neck and a few on
the back, usually.

Their meals in a week are:

3-4 days of chicken quarters
1 day of Pork (whatever is on sale)
1 day of turkey (they like drummies and tails)
1-2 days of ground beef with liver and sardines in oil and sweet
potatoes.

The vet I see, for the area I live in is the best that I can do,
believes dogs are omnivores and thinks Im not feeding an adequete
diet. Im in search for any ideas!!! ANY!! I have not used any new
detergents or dog shampoos. I bath every 1-2 months because I show.
No yard sprays used no flea controls and no fleas. NO new vaccines.
Im truly clueless as what is going on. I cant see all 3 being
allergic to chicken, all 3 different pedigrees.

The only thing that I can think of is that they have been ultra picky
latley and are getting more chicken, such as they will eat a little
bit of the turkey and I make them wait until next day when its
chicken day. I try not to spoil them that way.

Please help... Need more info just ask!!

Marian


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:01 pm ((PST))

Marian,

This makes no sense unless they are all reacting to the enhancers and
additives found in much of the chicken and most turkey.
Might take a look at the labels to see if they are injected with some
preservative solution. Sounds like the reaction my girl has to these
products.

Your diet is heavy in poultry...try either not feeding it at all and
replacing with red meat...or making certain your poultry is natural and feed
it occasionally.

Oh, and get rid of the sweet potatoes...any other food or supplement you
didn't mention?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mcburkel" <morsgreatdanes@comcast.net>

My danes have alot of white and you can see the skin under the fur
and the skin is reddish blotches about as big as a pencil eraser.
Some of them turn into a bump. Mostly around the neck and a few on
the back, usually.

Their meals in a week are:

3-4 days of chicken quarters
1 day of Pork (whatever is on sale)
1 day of turkey (they like drummies and tails)
1-2 days of ground beef with liver and sardines in oil and sweet
potatoes.


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:26 pm ((PST))

NO sardines in oil, either!

Canned sardines are cooked, and are probably packed in soy oil - BIG
possibility for food sensitivity there!

Feed fresh or frozen whole fish, pork, beef, rabbit, venison, lamb, goat -
leave the chicken and turkey alone unless you can get it minimally processed
without enhancements, as Sandee says.

It takes awhile for the itchies to go away after eliminating offending
substances, sometimes months. Be patient.

Oh, and try to get some other organs into their diet; kidney, spleen,
sweetbreads, etc.

Hmm, what else? Oh, look for environmental chemicals that may be causing or
contributing to the problem - inhalant allergies, personal or household
cleaners or fresheners, carpet, paint, furniture off gassings, lawn
treatments......

Plain white vinegar and water is an effective cleaner, and baking soda can
be used as a mild abrasive and deodorizer. Using white vinegar in a final
rinse and NO fabric softener in items the dogs lay on can eliminate topical
irritation.

Vaccines can cause problems, even if the effects are not evident right away.
Your dogs can develop sensitivities to chemicals over time, so look to
whatever products you have been using, too.

Yes, I too want to know if there's any supps or additives in these pups
diets that you haven't mentioned.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Marian,
>
> This makes no sense unless they are all reacting to the enhancers and
> additives found in much of the chicken and most turkey.
>


> <snip>
> Your diet is heavy in poultry...try either not feeding it at all and
> replacing with red meat...or making certain your poultry is natural and
> feed
> it occasionally.
>
> Oh, and get rid of the sweet potatoes...any other food or supplement you
> didn't mention?
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12d. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:55 pm ((PST))

Marian,
I have Danes too, one is white, she's never had a problem with chicken, however, prepackaged chicken, gives her issues. Where do you get your chicken? Is it enhanced, I noticed it was quarters, maybe you should try whole chickens, cut down to feeding portions, to see if that makes a difference. Make sure it's not chemically enhanced, or added with any juices of any kind. No colorants either. They do alot to chicken these days.
Maybe try organic, to see if that changes things, on the chicken anyway.
Hope that helps. And I bath mine in Mane and Tail for horses, they also have a leave in conditioner, it's nice too, but usually don't need it for the dogs, just me.:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12e. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:56 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mcburkel" <morsgreatdanes@...>
wrote:
>
> Please help... Need more info just ask!!
>
Hey Marian,
It's good to see you again. I haven't seen you in a while. Sorry to
hear about the problems you are having. I think there is probably a
very simple answer to your problems. You have just overlooked it or
eliminated it as a possibility in your mind.

I don't buy the fact that you have 3 unrelated dogs with an allergy
to the same food. I think you can forget food allergies. What I
suspect is that the 2nd dog caught the infection from the first and
when you thought you got rid of it, it wasn't completely gone. It
came back later only to infect the 3rd dog also. I think the whole
thing began with the first dog and was transmitted down the line.

I don't have a clue what it is. It COULD be some kind of worms. If
not, it has to be an irritant in their enviornment or a bacterial
infection. I don't see how it could possibly be diet related. I
don't see it as allergy related.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12450

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: Itzel Vazquez
1b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: divasdesignerstore

2.1. Re: Scary Website
From: Gaye Amick

3a. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: bettathang
3b. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: spricketysprock
3c. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: Michelle G. Heimendinger

4. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
From: boswellrt@aol.com

5a. Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: Alexis
5b. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: Sandee Lee
5c. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: jjareski
5d. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
From: bettathang
6b. Re: Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
From: petartist1021
6c. Re: Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
From: spricketysprock

7. good bones for teeth cleaning
From: Mary Tinder

8.1. Newbie
From: skcreedon
8.2. Re: Newbie
From: Sandee Lee
8.3. Re: Newbie
From: skcreedon

9.1. Re: liver
From: Sherrel Leininger

10a. Re: How to fix/prevent toes turning out?
From: merril Woolf

11a. Re: Raw Bacon
From: ginny wilken

12.1. Re: tripe
From: ginny wilken

13a. runs
From: Nanette

14. Horse Turds
From: Loraine Jesse

15. Chicago Area
From: skcreedon


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "Itzel Vazquez" justfabulousss@yahoo.ca justfabulousss
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:54 pm ((PST))

Thanks guys!

Tomorrow morning, I'll give him his meat for the day and we will see how it goes. Then, I'll change the feeding time around. I'll let you know how it goes!

I'm watching him eat as I type and it is so much fun! He's been at it for 40 minutes with a RMB... so much better than the 40 seconds it took him with kibble!

Itzel, Dumpling (the pug) and Dim Sum (the tonkinese cat)


---------------------------------
Découvrez les styles qui font sensation sur Yahoo! Québec Avatars

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "divasdesignerstore" divasdesignerstore@yahoo.com divasdesignerstore
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:08 pm ((PST))

Hi,

I am new here but have been feeding 5 pugs a raw diet for about 3
years now. So here's my 2 cents on the subject. I think it may be a
pug thing where they think they are hungry all day. When I first
switched mine they loved it so much everytime I walked into the
kitchen it was a stampeed. They would literally knock me over
thinking they were getting fed again.
I feed them twice a day, Once in the morning and once at dinner time.
But at lunch time I give them all a dish of peeled carrots, apples,
green beans, pumpkin, sweet potatoes, etc. I vary it for them. They
don't actually digest this stuff when it's fed like this, doesn't
really add any pounds on them either, great thing for pugs, but it
makes them feel full enough that they can wait until their next meal.
Like I said just my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps!
Audrey :)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "justfabulousss"
<justfabulousss@...> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I've been lurking and reading as much as possible in the last six
> weeks. Last week, I made the switch for my 7-year-old pug. My
> tonkinese cat is at the "50% raw 50% crap-in-a-bag" stage. I am
> very proud of both of them and their health is great, no loose
> stools or other to report and they look like they are enjoying
their
> meals very much!
>
> However, my pug's love for the diet keeps him begging for more.
The
> minute I walk in the kitchen, he gets all excited. If I'm
somewhere
> else, he'll go in the kitchen and whine. This is very anoying and
I
> hope it gets better soon.
>
> I am feeding him organic non-castrated pig that I scored at 0.75$ a
> pound (which is cheaper than chicken here right now). His ideal
> weight is at 18 pounds and so I feed about half a pound divided in
> two servings. The two servings was to help him digest this new
food
> in the beggining, but maybe I can already switch him to one meal
per
> day to help him feel more full. What do you think?
>
> Thank you all for being there!!! I'm enjoying reading about raw
> feeding so much!
>
> Itzel, Dumpling (the pug) and Dim Sum (the tonkinese cat)
>


Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: Scary Website
Posted by: "Gaye Amick" northernskychar@netzero.com northernskyacademy
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:14 pm ((PST))

I actually am in the purchasing stages of converting to raw and
therefore haven't actually started but I felt this website was
not "fact" based.

She never mentions (well does once) where she got her information
All she says is Vets (which ones, how many, which university), Study
(what study and by whom) and that "she" gathered information (from
where).

When she refers to the different types of wolves in the wild...Well
yes, the get distemper, mange, rabies etc., and they will die from
the diseases because there are no vaccinations or health care.

Yes wild pups don't have a high survival rate,because, there is no
health care, regular source of food and live where there are
predator's.

Yes, some wolves are thin because there isn't a regular consistant
source of food available. Basically, food is scarce at times.

Yes, wolves get worms etc.. their foods are not
processed/grown/regulated in ways the foods we feed (will feed) have
been.

All in all I think the woman needs to do more solid research.

Defending raw and haven't even started,
Gaye

Yes, wolves die young sometimes for the above reasons.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, onnie <tempore45@...> wrote:
>
> My friend and I raw feed our dogs. She found this
> website and is quite concerned. I've read through it
> but I'm no expert. Help! They say a lot of bad things
> about raw feeding and and I don't know what to
> think....
>
> http://secondchanceranch.org/rawmeat.html
>
> Thank you for your help!
> Bonnie
>


Messages in this topic (51)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "bettathang" bettathang@yahoo.com bettathang
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:14 pm ((PST))

> "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@> wrote:>
> > Has anyone come across this website?
> > http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html
> >
> > Just curious what your thoughts are...


It just seems REALLY fishy to me that she mentions being some kind
of food broker/advocate or something for a company that doesn't make
raw food. Even though she claims not to be directly compensated for
it, I just don't see that happening. From her OWN website FAQ's:

*****Do you sell Flint River Ranch or do you own interest in a
commercial kibble company?

No. I do not own stock or interest in any commercial kibble
company. No one sells FRR except for the company itself. They have a
program where you can sign up to be a "distributor", but you never
handle the food. It's simply a referral system where the company
gives you a small commission for sending them new customers. In my
case, the commission goes directly to my non-profit animal rescue
organization, Second Chance Ranch (less than $100/month).********

Right, REAL credible.

Just my thoughts :)
-Heidi and the gang

BTW, I am currently finishing my degree in Biology at the University
of Illinois and will be applying for vet school this fall....so I
consider myself to be somewhat above the "uneducated" raw meat
advocates she loves to cite.


Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:12 pm ((PST))

I'm in yahoo groups... isn't that necessary for this list? Anyway
that's a lot of links!! Look forward to reading.

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "Michelle G. Heimendinger" michelle@hdinger.com michellegallik
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:55 pm ((PST))

Ok, I am a newbie been reading the posts for over a week and have had
some thoughts about the quality of meat. I Many members seem to be
finding great deals on bulk meats and obviously they are not organic.
Feeding entirely organic of course if prohibitive to most people let
alone animals.

Do most folks have any idea of what chemicals are being fed to feedlot
animals ? I live in WA and get my organic meats directly from a farmer
I know - he's told me some awful stories. I have no real issues
w/parasites and worms because if you or the animal is in good gut health
it will pass right through. BUT, what about all the chemicals (most
slaughterhouses now chemically spray the carcasses to kill the Ecoli 157
- and that takes a lot) and of course

Antibiotics - that has to have some long term effect on animals ?

Michelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
Posted by: "boswellrt@aol.com" boswellrt@aol.com boswellsbordercollies
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:31 pm ((PST))

Thank you Kathy we hunt so we can keep any parts we want. I was told not to
feed the larger bones but could the dogs use them to just chew on for
recreation.


Trish Boswell

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "Alexis" alexis78@gmail.com tiger_girl78
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:31 pm ((PST))

I gave my 75lb hound/husky mix his first meal of raw chicken leg
quarters on Friday and learned the hard way that feeding him in his
play room is not a good idea. At least we have hard wood floors but he
dragged the meat and bone all over the floor and onto his bed. I'm
concerned about the possibility of salmonella, etc. My family thinks
I'm nuts for feeding him raw meat and obviously the indoor thing was a
mistake....any suggestions for keeping the mess 'contained.' :)
Thanks!

Alexis & Cassius

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:05 pm ((PST))

There is no more concern about Salmonella than there was with whatever he
was eating previously. However, you might want to pick a spot for him to
eat, thrown down a tablecloth, rug, towel, blanket...anything you can easily
throw in the washer once in a while...and teach him to eat at that spot.
Easy!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Alexis" <alexis78@gmail.com>


I gave my 75lb hound/husky mix his first meal of raw chicken leg
quarters on Friday and learned the hard way that feeding him in his
play room is not a good idea. At least we have hard wood floors but he
dragged the meat and bone all over the floor and onto his bed. I'm
concerned about the possibility of salmonella, etc. My family thinks
I'm nuts for feeding him raw meat and obviously the indoor thing was a
mistake....any suggestions for keeping the mess 'contained.' :)

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "jjareski" jjareski1@hotmail.com jjareski
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:11 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.


I crate my 2 it's just easier. When I used a blanket they would run
off and eat where they pleased.

Josie


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5d. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:55 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Alexis" <alexis78@...> wrote:
>
> I'm concerned about the possibility of salmonella, etc.

Funny thing is that we get daily posts from
people "concerned", "worried", "scared to death", "terrified", etc
about salmonella. I don't remember ever seeing a post saying "My
dog has salmonella" You will soon learn that samonella, E-coli, etc
is just not a problem when feeding raw assuming you wash your hands
as you would after handling raw meat for humans.

> My family thinks
> I'm nuts for feeding him raw meat and obviously the indoor
> thing was a mistake....any suggestions for keeping
> the mess 'contained.'

I have 2 Great Danes that eat every meal inside. They both eat
wherever they want. When they finish eating, they will clean their
own mess then swap places and clean the other dog's place. I think
the secret is to make sure when they finish, they still want
more. :) :) :)

Many people will babygate the dogs in the kitchen, many feed in
crates, many will put down a towel or plastic table cloth or shower
curtain. It's easy to teach the dog to eat on something in a
certain place.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
Posted by: "bettathang" bettathang@yahoo.com bettathang
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:31 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, K Carolyn Ramamurti <> I'm not
thrilled with this, but my photos do have a Creative Commons
> license on them, which allows them to be used as long as I am given
> proper credit.

Oh boy, I would be really steamed if I were you. I feel pretty lucky
that most good chinese crested (my breed) sites will at least discuss
raw and how good it is for their skin. Remind me NEVER to post a pick
of my Lab eating a delicious meaty chunk; I don't have nearly the
patience that you do.

-Heidi
(George and Gaston)

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
Posted by: "petartist1021" mwmbox@iinet.net.au petartist1021
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:09 pm ((PST))

>I'm not thrilled with this, but my photos do have a Creative Commons
> > license on them, which allows them to be used as long as I am given
> > proper credit.


At least it gives us a chance to comment on the stupidity of the post:)


Michelle, Tia and Taj
http://turbotaj.blogspot.com

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:12 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES!

> Courtney <courtneypo@...> wrote:
> Pics of my dogs eating lamb heads have been blogged at
> http://dailydachshund.blogspot.com as an example of why the author is
> against raw.

The author wrote to me and she isn't actually against raw, the photo
was used more for humor. She isn't PRO raw but has no strong feelings
either way. Just putting that out there so she doesn't get bombarded
with more comments!

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

7. good bones for teeth cleaning
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:32 pm ((PST))

Any suggestions on the best type and species bones for scouring the
teeth?

Mary T

Messages in this topic (1)
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8.1. Newbie
Posted by: "skcreedon" skcreedon@aol.com skcreedon
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:08 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this group and relatively new to raw feeding. Our new
rescue golden had many things wrong, allergies, etc. Briefly, we
have been seeing a vet who, along with holistic meds, had us feeing him
a "100% raw bison diet"orthwest Naturals) I was under the impression
after he regained his health we could transition into a half raw half
dry diet (low carb) diet. This is not the case. I have been given a
booklet with recipes but I must admit I'm feeling overwhelmed. He
needs to be on a carb free diet and I am not to use chicken or beef
but a "rare" protein source. Do all raw recipes require 10 ingredients
and things like "turkey heart". I look forward to learn much from all
of you.
Susan Creedon

Messages in this topic (220)
________________________________________________________________________

8.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:18 pm ((PST))

Susan,

This is the reason we don't recommend getting feeding instructions from a
vet, holistic or not! How ridiculous...you don't need a recipe sheet or 10
ingredients to properly feed your dog. It is so simple, a child could do
it. Dogs need meat, bones and organs just as they eat in nature. No
recipes, no mixing or measuring, just nice whole raw goods.

Dogs have no need for carbs so feeding a dry processed diet wouldn't be
appropriate, but neither was the Northwest Naturals with all of it's carb
laden ingredients and additives.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "skcreedon" <skcreedon@aol.com>
I'm new to this group and relatively new to raw feeding. Our new
rescue golden had many things wrong, allergies, etc. Briefly, we
have been seeing a vet who, along with holistic meds, had us feeing him
a "100% raw bison diet"orthwest Naturals) I was under the impression
after he regained his health we could transition into a half raw half
dry diet (low carb) diet. This is not the case. I have been given a
booklet with recipes but I must admit I'm feeling overwhelmed. He
needs to be on a carb free diet and I am not to use chicken or beef
but a "rare" protein source. Do all raw recipes require 10 ingredients
and things like "turkey heart". I look forward to learn much from all
of you.


Messages in this topic (220)
________________________________________________________________________

8.3. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "skcreedon" skcreedon@aol.com skcreedon
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:55 pm ((PST))

Oh THANK YOU so much....my head has stopped throbing at the thought of
those recipes. Any supplements if there are no fruit and vegetable?
You a a headache saver. :-)
Susan Creedon

Messages in this topic (220)
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9.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:08 pm ((PST))

I am very new here too but I recently found something my dobe Daisy decided was not fit for canine consumption, pork hearts. For 3 meals I gave it to her and she would guard it but not eat it. So I cut it up into "bite sized" pieces and mixed it with stew meat. She gobbled it down in record time.

Maybe you could do something like this.

Sherrel, Daisy and Lilly


In a message dated 12/30/2007 9:01:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
coldbeach@gmail. com writes:

No idea yet how to get them to eat it or the kidneys for that matter...
May have to nuke it next if i don't puke from the smell first *blech*

Trina,

they are picking up on your revulsion.. you need to get a handle on your
emotions. as long as you have strong reactions to the organ meats your dogs won't
eat them no matter what you do to them.

put them in food bowls, do whatever you need to to keep yourself in check.
And when the dogs are eating go somewhere else, another room or something so
you won't upset them further. Give them about half an hour to eat and if they
don't pick it up, cover it and put in the fridge until their next meal.

or chunk it and mix it with green tripe.. again, with you in another room to
keep your emotions from upsetting the dogs..

Catherine R.

************ ********* ********* ********See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food. aol.com/top- rated-recipes? NCID=aoltop00030 000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (54)
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10a. Re: How to fix/prevent toes turning out?
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:08 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "petartist1021" <mwmbox@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone
>
> I have a five month old male BC (pedigree) who I transitioned to raw
> from 9 weeks of age, he also gets a small handful of good quality
> kibble four or five times per week (just in case I miss anything).
>
> The problem I am having is that his toes/lower legs are turning out,
> and I want to know what role diet (can play in this - as in what can I
> do to fix it? I don't think this is a genetics issue, (both parents
> hip and elbow e-rayed with no issues) so I think I am doing something
> wrong, or not getting his amounts correct.
>
> Michelle


If toeing in or out was diet related, those kibble companies would have a lot of 'splaining
to do.

Toeing out is actually desirable from a working point of view but I can see why it would
bother you if you were just looking to have his toes point straight ahead.

Toss out the 'handful of kibble' and just keep feeding him all the good stuff. Junk food is
still junk food and even a handful is useless in his diet.

I've been breeding and raising dogs for many a year and the only toeing out I had was
genetic and was not considered a bad thing except by the ill-informed show judges who
don't understand working conformation.

All my dogs have toes that face forward, but I don't worry when I see a toed out working
dog....it just makes them more functional.

I know that didn't help you, but feeding raw doesn't cause toeing out.....or all mine would
have been doing that for mucho years now.

Good luck with your working dog. :-))

Merril

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Raw Bacon
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:51 pm ((PST))


On Jan 2, 2008, at 12:23 PM, adkjoe17 wrote:

> I have two packages of Raw Bacon in my freezer. I don't eat bacon and
> was going to give it away but I was wondering if I could feed it to my
> pup. I havn't seen much talk about bacon and I would assume that you
> wouldn't want to give much since it is so fatty but is it ok to add a
> few raw slices of bacon to a couple of the dogs meals here and there
> until it is gone? I wouldn't feed a whole meal of bacon or even on a
> daily basis but every once and a while should be ok right?
>
> Joe
>
>

Yes, but: raw bacon is a very rare bird, and what you have is likely
cured with chemical solutions, or smoked, or flavored with artificial
smoke. So, why feed this? If it's OK with you to eat it, do so, but
spare the pups.

OTOH, if this is uncured, nitrite-free, lightly authentically smoked,
etc, then all you'd need to worry about is added sugar and salt. This
could be a OK snack, but I wouldn't add it to meals for fear it would
spoil their taste for plain, unsalted, and sugar-free meals.

Not such a great deal all around, but, that said, Tomo and I eat
Niman Ranch applewood smoked uncured raw bacon, raw. But not often:)


ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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12.1. Re: tripe
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:57 pm ((PST))


On Jan 2, 2008, at 1:06 PM, atmanandadevotee wrote:

> unfortunatly, green tripe is not allowed in france, you can only buy
> white tripe, is it worth it or not for the dog from a nutritional
> point
> of vew ?
> darshana
>

No, but look around for a farm butcher if you like. The owner of
Greentripe.com obtained her lovely line of Afghans from a woman in
the north of France who was feeding whole tripes before almost
anyone, and she chronicled her life with dogs in a privately
published book. In one chapter she describes being well left alone by
the randy Nazi soldiers, because she dressed plainly and was always
stinking of animal body parts she had hauled home from the farmers.

Things may have changed somewhat, but this heritage needs to be
honored in its birthplace:)

Have fun,

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (66)
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13a. runs
Posted by: "Nanette" nanettechols@gmail.com nanettechols
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:13 pm ((PST))

Hi,

I'm the one with a St. Bernard (picky) and a St. Something (English
Setter?). AND the foster on Kibble with lots of problems too numerous
to discuss here.

We went raw with our two boys (Hagrid and Petey) last week and are on
our 9th or 10th day.

Pete (80lb mix) - He's been like a real dog with this. We started with
chicken backs cause I could get them for free from a farmer I buy our
meat from. He takes it and rips it and works it and has been having
the perfect stools. I've kept up the bone ratio to try and stave off
the runs. We switched Pete - the more vivacious and seemingly unranked
to turkey backs three days ago. (I cut off most of the carcass and
left the back where the meat was) I then mixed in some turkey necks.
The turkey backs are much meatier than the chicken backs and take him
hours to get through. Tonight I was preparing to give him much more
meat. (After reading this list and watching him, he seemed to be doing
well) I bought chicken breasts and leg/thighs for him tonight. When I
got home from work, he had done some squirting in his kennel. I
couldn't see much but definitely smelled it. He then ran outside and
squirted and pooped, etc.. FYI: He's a poop eater. :( I've been
watching and since we went raw, he hasn't indulged himself. Well,
tonight after the runs today, he decided to eat some of his foster
sisters poop (apparently). I didn't know this but he asked to go out
again and I watched to see how much running was left. While he was
squatting he projectile vomited in the back yard loosing the entire
contents of his morning meal plus, guess what? poop! I went and looked
and there was poop in with the turkey and bones. I'm fasting him
tonight. Should I do anything else? I don't know if I should stick
with the plan and give him turkey breasts and leg/thighs tomorrow or
what?

Hagrid - 125lb St. Bernard - Very picky eater (always has been). When
we were in training with him he wanted to play with the other dogs
more than he wanted the liver, french fried, steak whatever super
treats we'd brought - nada). He doesn't like to chew his food. He has
not been taking to this diet. He doesn't like chicken in any form but
will eat it when he gets hungry enough. Interestingly enough, he's the
one with multiple health issues. He's skinny and long legged and comes
from a puppy mill - (we rescued both our guys from St. Bernard
rescue). He's the one I really want on this diet because I think his
itchy ears and runny eyes and other health problems are all from
allergies. I gave him some ground pork with his chicken two days ago
and he ate the pork. So tonight I went and got some pork ribs (country
style with lots of meat - still not enough for when they're
transitioned). I put the rib down and he picked it up and dropped it.
I cut it up and he ate some but not very much. Maybe about 1/2 lb.
That's about what he's been eating since we started this last week.
Yes, I know I'm babying him, and I will stop. I just don't know how to
bring the wolf out in him. He's a real mom's boy. He's had three bouts
of pneumonia since we've had him. For the last one they did a scope
and discovered that the flap that keeps the food out of his wind pipe
is permanently open. So he eats from a raised bowl and his food is
always moistened to eliminate dust. So he ate some pork and I'm happy,
but not happy enough to rejoice because he stopped so soon. It's hard
to have one really taking to this and the other just looking at me
like I'm crazy.

Suggestions welcome.
Nanette
St. Paul, MN
PS If there are people on this list who live in the Twin Cities,
please contact me off list with your resources for cheap meat.


Messages in this topic (5)
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14. Horse Turds
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:19 pm ((PST))


My pups who are a little over 4 months have been fed prey model since they have been weaned. There is a horse in a field that is along our walking trail, my precious male puppy has now decided that he has a passion for horse turds, does not matter if they are frozen or, fresh he loves them all. There is also poop from other wild animals such a coyotes, so it would not surprise me if they both have had a munch on these too. Will this hurt my puppies? Is there anything I can do to stop this passion for horse turds? Why on earth would they even want to eat poop with all the good food they are being fed? My Husband thinks this is so funny, but then again he is not the one trying to pull the crap from my boy's jaws.
Loraine Jesse
www.rothburgrottweilers.com
_________________________________________________________________
Introducing the City @ Live! Take a tour!
http://getyourliveid.ca/?icid=LIVEIDENCA006

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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15. Chicago Area
Posted by: "skcreedon" skcreedon@aol.com skcreedon
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:54 pm ((PST))

Anyone from the Chicago area that would like to do a bulk buy let me
know. I'd be happy to go in with others.
Susan Creedon, Chicago

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12449

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. tripe
From: atmanandadevotee
1.2. Re: tripe
From: costrowski75

2a. Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
From: Robert Ekendahl
2b. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
From: Dave Teetz
2c. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
From: Tina Berry
2d. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
From: ekendahl

3a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now : Deer Me
From: katkellm

4. Co-op in New Mexico
From: divasdesignerstore

5a. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: spricketysprock
5b. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: MORGAN LEWIS
5c. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: Giselle
5d. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: Sandee Lee
5e. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti

7a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: Alisha Johnson

8a. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: Raw Bacon
From: Sandee Lee
9b. Re: Raw Bacon
From: Laura Atkinson
9c. Re: Raw Bacon
From: Shelly

10. Hello & Intro
From: itissuki

11.1. Rabbit was Re: worms
From: becca1066

12a. Re: Scratched esophagus
From: Sandee Lee
12b. Re: Scratched esophagus
From: Jai

13a. Re: Gullet
From: costrowski75

14. How to fix/prevent toes turning out?
From: petartist1021


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. tripe
Posted by: "atmanandadevotee" atmanandadevotee@yahoo.fr atmanandadevotee
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

unfortunatly, green tripe is not allowed in france, you can only buy
white tripe, is it worth it or not for the dog from a nutritional point
of vew ?
darshana

Messages in this topic (65)
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1.2. Re: tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:32 pm ((PST))

"atmanandadevotee" <atmanandadevotee@...> wrote:
, you can only buy
> white tripe, is it worth it or not for the dog from a nutritional
point
> of vew ?
*****
Absolutely not. Spend your doggiedollars on other things!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (65)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

Hi,

How often do you think I should feed my white German Shepherds that are 14
months and 3 years. Currently I feed them 2/day and equal amount each time.
Something they are used to from their kibble days.

Both dogs are active and goes to doggie day-care 5/week and we do long
walks/plays on the weekend, so mostly they collapse when they are home.

I want to feed them in a for them satisfying way. My young dog seem to do
fine on 0.9 lbs twice a day (as both their ideal weight is 90 lbs), but for
my grown dog each meal seems a little small. I'm wondering if giving him one
large meal would satisfy him better? Problem is that as they go to day care
I don't want to feed them 1.8 lbs just before the Van picks them up, as they
might spend half the day digesting; but I'm not sure I can send them with an
empty stomach as well as they might throw up bile in the afternoon.

The little one is an efficient eater, he doesn't inhale food but works it
like a machine. In a way a beautiful thing BUT my grown dogs loves the
experience of eating (never seen this in an animal before)! When given a
cooked egg he will most of the time separate the white from the yellow, eat
all the boring white first before chewing the perfectly whole yellow. He
also likes to take his time with his raw food and first rip meat off before
eating the bones. So on one level I want to give him as much pleasure as I
can from his food, but I need to watch his weight (he could loose a few) so
he currently gets food for a 90lbs dog while weighing in at 100lbs.

So, given all this, how frequently would you feed my dogs?

As a side note, I'm personally not for feeding at different times each day.
I'm sure in the wild they wouldn't eat same time each day but in the wild
they could also hunt when they needed too not be trapped in a house/yard.
They already have so little control over their life so I prefer to give them
the knowledge that certain things work like clock work, be it the morning
walk or feeding times. I find they settle down better given this. My work
schedule also enforces regularity.

I would love to hear your opinions!

/Robert Ekendahl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
Posted by: "Dave Teetz" dteetz@gmail.com dteetz
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:07 pm ((PST))

Robert,

I have a 16 month GSD and a 6 year old Golden Retriever. Both have always
been fed kibble twice a day. I elected to keep this schedule when I started
raw and got them off the dry food. In particular I did this to help prevent
bloat in the GSD. I had read several articles stating it is best to feed
multiple times per day in dogs that have a likelihood of bloat. Listers
taught me this was most likely a kibble issue and bloat is less likely to
happen in a raw-fed dog.

With insight from others I started feeding once a day to both. Feeding the
GR .75 pounds per meal was trying, so simply being able to throw all the
food in a bowl and go, I was pleased. Depending on what you feed, a bowl
may not even be necessary.

Between work, dogs and family I run into feeding time issues as well. The
advantage is I only have to feed on time a day now, so scheming time is no
longer needed. I've opted to not have a set time and they have quickly
stopped the bile vomit. One dog did a couple days after feeding once per
day, but that's it. The GR still comes in the kitchen every time I go
there, but he does that regardless of anything else that may be going on.

Good luck,

Dave

On Jan 2, 2008 4:15 AM, Robert Ekendahl <robert@ekendahl.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> How often do you think I should feed my white German Shepherds that are 14
> months and 3 years. Currently I feed them 2/day and equal amount each
> time.
> Something they are used to from their kibble days.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:13 pm ((PST))

"I want to feed them in a for them satisfying way. My young dog seem to do
fine on 0.9 lbs twice a day (as both their ideal weight is 90 lbs), but for
my grown dog each meal seems a little small."

I have a 3 yo male (95lbs) and a 2 yr old male (90lbs) - I feed once a day
at all different times of the day. This is so their stomach bile doesn't
get in an uproar expecting food at the exact same time daily. I feed the
95lber 1.25 lbs daily and the 90lber 1.50lbs daily.

I run all of my dogs 2 miles a day. 1 mile in the am and 1 mile in the pm
(playing fetch on a 1/2 acre, I don't run LOL)

This is what works for mine.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:41 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:

> I have a 3 yo male (95lbs) and a 2 yr old male (90lbs) - I feed once
a day
> at all different times of the day. This is so their stomach bile
doesn't
> get in an uproar expecting food at the exact same time daily. I
feed the
> 95lber 1.25 lbs daily and the 90lber 1.50lbs daily.

Wow, you are keeping your dogs on the thin side, as recommended weight
would be 1.8 lbs for a 90lbs dog. Do they really gain weight if you
feed them more?

I was hoping that cutting out the carbs (from the kibble) would help
them loose weigth even with larger portions sizes.

Guess I might have do do something similar for my grown dog if cutting
the carbs from his kibble doesn't help him loose weight.

>
> www.kriegshundgsds.com
>

I looked at your website and your dogs are beautiful. In a couple of
year when we might consider a 3rd shepherd I might contact you.

My white german shepherds are from http://www.geocities.com/braeheadk9
. My younger one from the "Dylan" line (a very successful working
dog). It's a very nice breeder that I'm in monthly contact with, and
who encouraged me to switch to Raw even if she doesn't use it (yet?)

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now : Deer Me
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, boswellrt@... wrote:
>
> We always have deer and I usually get it processed for us to eat
but a lot
> is wasted.

Hi Trish,
I have never gotten a deer as in the whole deer that someone hunted
for me. So, my help might not be too helpful. I go to the meat
locker where the hunters take the deer to become roasts...The people
there save the heads and the legs for me. As they trim the deer, they
throw tons of stuff into the trim barrels, and when i pick up the
heads and legs i bring my construction size garbage bags and put all
the trimmings in there. I have found that, unlike cow trimmings which
are almost all fat and are not worth taking, the deer trimmings have
very little fat and make excellent meals. So, i guess my thought
would be to ask them to save everything for you that they don't turn
into people food. If you are up to it, you could probably ask them if
they would mind if you took parts and trimmings from all the deer they
process. I have filled 2 freezers this year for free this way. HTH a
little anyways, KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4. Co-op in New Mexico
Posted by: "divasdesignerstore" divasdesignerstore@yahoo.com divasdesignerstore
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone,
I live in the Rio Rancho area of New Mexico and I am trying to get
together enough people in the Rio Rancho, Albuquerque, Corralles, and
surrounding areas to put together some bulk orders of raw food so that
we can benefit from the cost reduction. Please contact me for info or
with questions. Thanks so much! :) Or if anyone knows of an existing co-
op in this area please let me know.
Audrey

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:06 pm ((PST))

Has anyone come across this website?
http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html

Just curious what your thoughts are...

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:40 pm ((PST))

Ph.D. in WHAT? Sounds like the clowns at the hospital my dad was ate. They threw a tantrum because I was bringing him a milk shake every day (with those candy pieces). Oh we don't know the amount he is drinking or the caloric content. well the answer to that was that I knew the caloric content of what they were feeding him (ZERO) because he would not eat it. And the milk shake was made at the hospital (Dairy Queen) size and caloric content available.

His Statement "most wolves are undernurished". is that due to quality or quantity of food. but he promotes "cooked Receipts" . One of my daughters does this; I have no major problems with it, as long as there are no cooked bones. Since I switched to RAW 3 1/2 years ago; I have had no health problems, no allergies, (I also stopped vaccines). My dogs are checked annually, cardiac, thyroid. My Vet is amazed, My dogs and I are happy. and our 1st natual, RAW pups will be born this Spring (no vaccines) So I have a very good use for this book. Use it like an "old" Sears and Robuck Catalogue. or better yet save the money and buy some good beef hearts. Morgan


Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award


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Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:05 pm ((PST))

Oh, people mention it now and then......
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=secondchanceranch&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
*http://tinyurl.com/2jempb

**http://tinyurl.com/3bszzf

**http://tinyurl.com/2v59ug

**http://tinyurl.com/2s7lcn

*et al......

*http://tinyurl.com/2p85lw

*TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


On Jan 2, 2008 4:58 PM, spricketysprock <jess.hamway@gmail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone come across this website?
> http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html
>
> Just curious what your thoughts are...
>
>
>
>


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5d. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:28 pm ((PST))

Hundreds of times...usual unfounded nonsense!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35662
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35725
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35795
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35821
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35824
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/41164
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/33962
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/33963
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/27033


http://rawfed.com./myths/rebuttal.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@gmail.com>


Has anyone come across this website?
http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html


Messages in this topic (5)
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5e. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:39 pm ((PST))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:>
> Has anyone come across this website?
> http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html
>
> Just curious what your thoughts are...
*****
Mostly unprintable.
I urge you to join Yahoogroups so you can browse the list archives.
This booschwa comes around once a month or so and each cycle is saved
in the archives. I want you to join Yahoogroups, go to the rawfeeding
homepage, then enter "secondchanchranch" in the search box and read
what comes up.

If you STILL have questions after your reading assignment is completed,
ask them and we'll see what we can do. Truly, the woman is not worth
the cyberspace it takes to discredit her.

Read the list archives.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:06 pm ((PST))

Your comment is there, Courtney. I could not help adding my own since I also raw feed my two dachsunds.

Carolyn in Seattle

Courtney <courtneypo@gmail.com> wrote:
Pics of my dogs eating lamb heads have been blogged at

http://dailydachshund.blogspot.com as an example of why the author is
against raw.

I'm not thrilled with this, but my photos do have a Creative Commons
license on them, which allows them to be used as long as I am given
proper credit.

I tried not to be too angry in my comment (lol) because I know we've
all been there, but I'm hoping this can open an informed,
non-confrontational discussion on the benefits of raw. Hopefully they
don't delete my comment!

http://dailydachshund.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-i-don-do-raw-feeding.html

Courtney Alieksaites
Dallas, TX


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7a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "Alisha Johnson" charlieschoicetreatco@yahoo.ca charlieschoicetreatco
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:06 pm ((PST))

I have a pug that I have been feeding raw for about 8 months now. She ALWAYS thinks she is starving...that never changed between kibble and the good food she gets now....and according to the majority of pug owners this is well known trait. I hate to burst your bubble but feeding one meal a day probably isn't going to change the fact that your pug...well...is a piggy...like all others of his kind. I feed twice a day and usually give a recreation bone just so she feels like she is eating AGAIN. I have thought of buying a whole roasting chicken just to see if she would ever get full....but I think I already know the answer...and that is she would eat until she exploded....I swear she can hear a crumb drop from a few miles away!
She is also a gulper and I have to really watch her when she eats....which I find quite repulsive actually...she slurps and hoarks and makes all sorts or god awful sounds....
but at least my kids don't have those manners. :)
Cheers,
Alisha


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8a. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:07 pm ((PST))

The dog who is doing the eating doesn't have anything missing in his diet,
he just smells food in the poop and is going after it like he would go after
any food anywhere he finds it."

This is funny too; well, not really - mine didn't eat poop when I had them
on raw chicken, now that they are on 100% venison since Sept - two of my 4
turned into poop eaters - they did the same thing last year when we switched
back to venision - GROSS!!!
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


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9a. Re: Raw Bacon
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:37 pm ((PST))

Possibly fry it up and use for treats?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@yahoo.com>


I have two packages of Raw Bacon in my freezer. I don't eat bacon and
was going to give it away but I was wondering if I could feed it to my
pup. I havn't seen much talk about bacon and I would assume that you
wouldn't want to give much since it is so fatty but is it ok to add a
few raw slices of bacon to a couple of the dogs meals here and there
until it is gone? I wouldn't feed a whole meal of bacon or even on a
daily basis but every once and a while should be ok right?


Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: Raw Bacon
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:00 pm ((PST))

Bacon is the *ultimate* high value treat for my dogs. I don't give anyone a
lot of it as with the curing process it's full of nitrates and I'm sure lots
of other crap. But for a treat, it's good stuff. And it's one I can stuff
in my mouth without shuddering while training or showing :-)

So, cook it up and freeze it so you have it handy (and we'll take all
further treat discussion to RawChat :-)

On Jan 2, 2008 12:23 PM, adkjoe17 <j2dope17@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have two packages of Raw Bacon in my freezer. I don't eat bacon and
> was going to give it away but I was wondering if I could feed it to my
> pup. I havn't seen much talk about bacon and I would assume that you
> wouldn't want to give much since it is so fatty but is it ok to add a
> few raw slices of bacon to a couple of the dogs meals here and there
> until it is gone? I wouldn't feed a whole meal of bacon or even on a
> daily basis but every once and a while should be ok right?
>
> Joe
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


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9c. Re: Raw Bacon
Posted by: "Shelly" stuartjlittle@verizon.net stuartjeanlittle
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:22 pm ((PST))

Bacon has a lot of salt and most bacon has nitrates and nitrites as well. We
have bacon every Sunday at our house (organic, nitrate free bacon, but salty
nonetheless). We always give the dogs each a piece, just as a special Sunday
treat. Our holistic (pro-raw) vet said it was fine in that small, infrequent
amount.

Shelly

On Wednesday 02 January 2008 15:23, adkjoe17 wrote:
I wouldn't feed a whole meal of bacon or even on a
daily basis but every once and a while should be ok right?

Joe


Messages in this topic (4)
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10. Hello & Intro
Posted by: "itissuki" itissuki@gmail.com itissuki
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:41 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone,

I've been reading with enthusiasm the past week or so. Thanks for all the great
information. I began home cooking for my boxer & boston (both 4 year olds) last spring.
I've gradually been getting closer to raw, mainly by commercial grinds. However, I don't
even trust the pretty packaged, expensive raw diets and have finally decided to make the
plunge to a more appropriate diet. One particularly troublesome factor is the state of my
boston's mouth. He's already had 8 teeth pulled and my homeopathic vet warns that he
may need more in the coming years. Of course, with a raw diet I'll do my best to lesson
that chance.

I'm still reading and looking up on the archives at this point. Nonetheless, I do have a
couple questions if you wouldn't mind indulging! I plan on eventually feeding a small
morning meal that doesn't take much time like, liver, kidney, egg, chicken back or
boneless meat. I will have more time in the afternoon for the more complicated
masticating :-)

Here in the Northeast I'm 'lucky' to find a bottom round for $1.99/#. Ethan, my boxer
would be happy to gnaw on that until it's gone I'm sure. I'm guessing it's about the size of
his head, & I recall reading that I shouldn't go with anything smaller than his mellon?
Would I give them each one? I'm afraid they'll never stop eating! Ethan usually gets about
2# and Hansel 6 oz per day of food. Obviously, with those prices I'll have to do some
investigating.

I received a sample of chicken necks a couple months ago & finally was brave enough to
give one to each dog. Ethan ( 70# boxer) did give a cursory crunch but Hansel (12#
boston) swallowed it like a snake. I see now, that it is not a good choice for either, at least
at this point but perhaps a half breast. With that said, if I get a good deal on say, boneless
red meat, chicken, pork loin, do I cut it in cubes or let them suck it down? I'm still a bit
unclear how to deal with boneless meats since I gather ground meats are not optimal.

Thanks again for being so patient and it's nice to 'meat' all of you (said the vegetarian!).
Suki

Messages in this topic (1)
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11.1. Rabbit was Re: worms
Posted by: "becca1066" becca1066@yahoo.com becca1066
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:41 pm ((PST))

I raise rabbits commercially -started to raw feed my dogs

1. Domestic rabbits raised on wire will not have worms. I dont know
of anyone who worms their rabbits -no need to. Worms would be
visible in the feces

2. Rabbits can have or carry coccidiosis. All animals carry
coccidiosis - there are species specific strains. Rabbits can get
it if exposed to their feces-this is why they are raised above the
ground on wire. Many breeders treat for coccidiosis. Rabbits with
coccidia, even to the point there are visible lesions in the liver,
are still edible, for people or animals. You should not butcher the
rabbits until 30 days after administering the cocciodiostat (time
for witrhdrawal varies depending on what is usesd) Exposure to
their feces is not the same as "cecotrophy" -rabbits actually eat
certain special feces directly form their anus-this is necessafy for
their health

3. There is sopme speculation that, BECAUSE we have selected for
rabbits that do well on a pelleted diet and have for 20+ years, they
will not do as well when fed a non-pelleted ration. This is
speculation, I know of no comparison study

4. Wild rabbits can carry tuleremia and this is transmissable to
humans, Wild rabbits should be handled with gloves. It is safe for
carnivores to eat

5. Many rabbit breeders use ivomec to treat for mites - it is of a
concern if it was administered orally to the rabbits and your dog is
sensative to it

Point - Know where your rabbits come from and how they are raised.
Ask what is used on them and how they are fed

becca

Messages in this topic (53)
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12a. Re: Scratched esophagus
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:55 pm ((PST))

Sue,

I have never heard of this happening. Suppose if one was feeding lots of
naked or cut bones with sharp edges it could...don't know how you would know
for sure. Most pork necks are quite bony unless they are whole. Lamb
bones...don't know exactly what that means? I will say that most people
feed far too much bone. Was that the cause of the problem? Guess we don't
know that! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "VBSUSAN" <vbsue@comcast.net>


Anyone have any experience with a scratched esophagus ... someone
emailed me today saying this had happened to their standard poodle as a
result of eating pork necks and lamb bones. She said it was both scary
and expensive. Perhaps the bones were not the cause ... how would you
ever know for sure? She is still rawfeeding but is only feeding ground
food now.


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12b. Re: Scratched esophagus
Posted by: "Jai" jredwing@windstream.net onesupercat
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:22 pm ((PST))

Hi,
My dalmatian Boo had bladder surgery on Thanksgiving eve. His esophus
appparently was damaged with the tube during the surgery. He has not fully
recovered yet, can only eat ground turkey in tablespoon sized bites, and
warmed not chilled. Anything else he throws up. They said the lining of
his esophagus is like a brick road, and slimy, they have never seen anything
like it. They want to do another endoscope to look, but his bill is up to
$3800 now, with that being another $1000.
So this does not answer your question about a scratched one, but definately
Boo's must have been scratched. So it can happen.
Jai...>^.^<...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandee Lee" <rlee@plix.com>

> Sue,
>
> I have never heard of this happening. Was that the cause of the problem?
> Guess we don't
> know that! :)
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "VBSUSAN" <vbsue@comcast.net>
>
>
> Anyone have any experience with a scratched esophagus ...

Messages in this topic (3)
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13a. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:29 pm ((PST))

Laura Wimpey <laura.wimpey@...> wrote:
>
> FYI - I ordered the same gulletts from hare today two weeks ago. My
kids LOVED em and it was a nice meaty meal. They were pretty big - 1 +
lb each.
*****
To help others who may not remember what sort of dogs are being fed, we
all need to remember to provide a reference for comparison. For
example, a pound gullet for my retrievers that are fed big food every
other day is not a nice meaty meal. But for a Chi or a toy poodle, a
one pound gullet would be a stunning challenge.

Thanks!
Chris O

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14. How to fix/prevent toes turning out?
Posted by: "petartist1021" mwmbox@iinet.net.au petartist1021
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:48 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone

I have a five month old male BC (pedigree) who I transitioned to raw
from 9 weeks of age, he also gets a small handful of good quality
kibble four or five times per week (just in case I miss anything).

The problem I am having is that his toes/lower legs are turning out,
and I want to know what role diet (can play in this - as in what can I
do to fix it? I don't think this is a genetics issue, (both parents
hip and elbow e-rayed with no issues) so I think I am doing something
wrong, or not getting his amounts correct.

He still gets three meals per day, although occasionally only morning
and night if the RMB's are 'meal and a half size'.

He is big for his age - at five months most people guess him to be 9
months+, his mum was big so that is probably genetic. I keep him on
the lean (not skinny) side, as advised by BC experts.

Over a week he gets chicken/lamb livers (daily), chicken frames with
lots of meat or chicken drumsticks/quarters, turkey size chicken
necks, whole big sardines/mackeral/other fish 2-4 times per week, lamb
hearts, lamb necks, lamb kidney, kangaroo muscle meat, beef RMB's,
lamb flap/offcuts, probably 5% if that total table scraps, an
occosional egg, tiny cheese or sausage pieces for training.

I try to vary everything, basing it on muscle/bone/organ meat as per a
prey animal at least in a rough way - I don't weigh and measure, but
maybe I need to?

Virtually all his food except the kangaroo meat is cheaper quality
(read higher fat content than more expensive human food)
human consumption meat because raw dog food is not easy to get around
here.

I supplement him with fish oil (good quality suitable one), Evening
primrose oil and ester C 625mg, usually one meal per day but I do miss
a couple of times per week (just in case he is getting too much).

He gets regular daily excercise - mostly free play, chasing tennis
balls, swimming and walking on lead - nothing strenuous, but enough to
keep his energy levels under control (he is a Border COllie after
all). Try to avoid any jumping, but again he is a Border Collie -
active, exhuberant and very fast, so jumping does occur occasionally
(short of hobbling him I couldn't stop these occasional jumps).

I think I have covered everything:)

Any help or suggestions appreciated!

Thanks

Michelle


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