Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 10, 2007

Tuesday, July 10, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11788

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Tried our first whole chickens
From: nkjvcjs
1b. Re: Tried our first whole chickens
From: Andrea

2a. Re: goose
From: Sue Iobst
2b. Re: goose
From: Bearhair

3a. Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
From: Julian1013@aol.com
3b. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
From: Tina Berry

4. Re: I wonder if I am doing the right thing..............
From: Linda Edgington

5a. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
From: Laurie Swanson
5b. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
From: Lyse Garant
5c. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
From: Sandee Lee
5d. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
From: ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ

6a. cow tail
From: fillermac
6b. Re: cow tail
From: costrowski75

7a. Pork Ribs
From: Evie
7b. Re: Pork Ribs
From: temy1102
7c. Re: Pork Ribs
From: Laurie Swanson
7d. Re: Pork Ribs
From: brutus_buckley

8a. Re: Fermented stomach grass
From: ginny wilken

9a. Re: Bone shards - questions
From: Sandee Lee
9b. Re: Bone shards - questions
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
9c. Re: Bone shards - questions
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Sandee Lee

11a. Re: EPI
From: Andrea Bryan Hoss

12. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank ~~how old is too old?
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

13a. Re: Needing help on my second night of raw
From: Bearhair

Messages
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1a. Tried our first whole chickens
Posted by: "nkjvcjs" nefreed@gmail.com nkjvcjs
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:48 pm ((PDT))

We tried our first whole, head-on, feet-on unplucked chickens last night.
They were young, about 8 weeks, so that they were about 1 lb each. I think next time I
will do full grown chickens, and just take them away after a time, because these 8 weekers
were very boney.

The pups really seemed to love it, but they only ate about half.
Katie really resisted the handfeeding with these, she really wanted to drag it away, so I
gave in after she ate about half of one fooot while I held on. They both played with them
quite a bit.
They did the same thing the first time I gave them rabbits too.
It was a bit disconcerting with the chickens still having heads & feathers and all, but we
did it, and they seemed to like it.

We will be getting a whole lamb soon. I am really excited about that.

Btw: Katie survived my trip to Italy with Daddy handfeeding the pre-made stuff, but I was
amazed at how bad their teeth got in just 2 weeks on pre-made ground stuff. (reference to
msg 132961) An oxtail the night I got home took care of it, but still, wow!

-Nicole
Katie, Petey and the cats

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Tried our first whole chickens
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

That sounds great for your pups! I wish I had a good source for whole chickens, the search
continues for me. . .

I am curious why you wanted to hold onto the foot of the chicken though. If they were whole
it doesn't seem likely that the dogs would get them down without tearing it apart, or are you
feeding bigguns? Next time you might let them try it on their own, they might have even
more fun!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nkjvcjs" <nefreed@...> wrote:
>
> We tried our first whole, head-on, feet-on unplucked chickens last night.

> Katie really resisted the handfeeding with these, she really wanted to drag it away, so I
> gave in after she ate about half of one fooot while I held on.

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: goose
Posted by: "Sue Iobst" fordogs@ptd.net agiledogs2000
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:35 pm ((PDT))

Re: goose
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Mon Jul 9, 2007 6:38 am (PST)
Lora wrote:

What exactly happens when you slowly introduce a new meat to him? A
chicken-only diet is nutritionally limited.

**He has loose stools

Great price and accurate assessment. You know the answer to this one - as
with all new protein sources, introduce slowly for best results.

**I have taken this bird out of the fridge for the third day in a row, time to get the chain saw, I can't cut through the bones and the fat content is enormous. Even the bones I was able to cut seem sharp. Should I just cut pieces of meat off without bone?
I gave the pup some sort of organ that was in the bag, he chewed and chewed and spit it out and repeated the same.
He finally got it down but proceeded to vomit it back up again shortly thereafter and once again chewed and spit it out reapeatedly until I finally threw it away. I'm beginning to think this wasn't such a bargain afterall.

Yes, goose and duck have red meat . . . let's talk more about your 9 year
old.
**I gave him a small piece of venison with his chicken last nite and todays stool looks ok so far. Maybe it was my fault too much too soon. I'll continue to try tiny pieces of new meats with the chicken. This diet can sometimes seem overwhelming.

Thanks for your help.
Sue, Gnat & Slick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: goose
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:44 pm ((PDT))

Sue and Lora conversed thusly:

>What exactly happens when you slowly introduce a new meat to him? A
>chicken-only diet is nutritionally limited.
>
>**He has loose stools

How long have you given his digestive system a chance to adapt before giving
up on the meat?

>**I have taken this bird out of the fridge for the third day in a row, time to get the chain saw, I can't cut through the bones and the fat content is enormous. Even the bones I was able to cut seem sharp. Should I just cut pieces of meat off without bone?

Might as well feed some of it! I can guarantee you loose stools from duck
fat!

>I gave the pup some sort of organ that was in the bag, he chewed and chewed and spit it out and repeated the same.
>He finally got it down but proceeded to vomit it back up again shortly thereafter and once again chewed and spit it out reapeatedly until I finally threw it away. I'm beginning to think this wasn't such a bargain afterall.

As long as he's still interested in it, you should let him have it. My guess
is that it was a gizzard. Tough, tough, rubbery things, but great for his
jaws and teeth!

>Yes, goose and duck have red meat . . . let's talk more about your 9 year
>old.
>**I gave him a small piece of venison with his chicken last nite and todays stool looks ok so far. Maybe it was my fault too much too soon. I'll continue to try tiny pieces of new meats with the chicken. This diet can sometimes seem overwhelming.

Excellent! Keep us posted!

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
Posted by: "Julian1013@aol.com" Julian1013@aol.com kaseyfrankie
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi all, I'm new to the group, my name is Kasey.. I have an 11 month old German Shepherd, Sophie, who was switched to Raw about 2 months ago, doing great! Now.. I am ready to switch my four cats. I don't think the raw diet itself will be an issue because, well, they're little hogs lol, but I'm not sure if I am doing this?correctly, but when I calculate out a months budget for the food, switching to raw would almost double the cost, and I've been told if done properly it's not supposed to be a whole lot more expensive. Am I shopping wrong? What is the daily percentage of raw diet a cat should have based on their?body weight? I am semi new to this, like I said my dog has been on Raw for a while now but I could still use some tips and advice. Any input is greatly appreciated!!! I look forward to getting to know everyone on the site! -Thanks
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Kasey S.
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT))

"Am I shopping wrong? What is the daily percentage of raw diet a cat should
have based on their?body weight?"

I don't know about feeding cats, but anything under $1 per lb is considered
good. Our local grocery had chicken leg/thigh quarters on sale for .79 -
bought all they had ;-) Albertson's used to have whole chickens on sale for
.39/lb sometimes and we would buy like 60 at a time - if you called ahead
and were not a retailer, they would let me buy as many as I wanted. Shop
around, ethnic markets, hunters cleaning out their freezers for this fall is
a good freebie to look for too. All our friends and family know to empty
their meat freezers on us.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4. Re: I wonder if I am doing the right thing..............
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:35 pm ((PDT))

I have them seperated when they eat, Sass usually on top of the washer and Gizzy
either in kennel or outside. The problem is usally after feeding time, he doesn't want
her anywhere near me or in the same room. And if he hear
her in another room he just take out after her. Now she is jumpy when I go to pet
her. Don't know what the problem is. Also I have only got them on chicken and
pork, and started Gizz on some beef today. Its not really fresh so I didn't offer
to Sass. I threw all my kibble and canned food away when
I started this. I won't go back, but sometimes I just get scared when little things
go wrong.
Linda

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"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNmMzNmwxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDNzQyMzUyNgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDc0MjEwODAEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExODQwNDE4Mjk-?t=ms&k=Dog+health+problem&w1=Dog+health+product&w2=Diet+and+nutrition&w3=Dog+health&w4=Dog+health+food&w5=Dog+health+problem&c=5&s=109&g=2.sig=LvFBuy5Tbz3bBLkl-OzoAg", "linkProtocol": "http", "linkRel": "nofollow", "linkTarget": "_blank" } }, "lw_1184108750_18": { "text": "Yahoo! TV", "extended": 0, "startchar": 8934, "endchar": 8942, "start": 8934, "end": 8942, "extendedFrom": "", "weight": 0.599268, "type": ["shortcuts:/us/instance/organization/company/yahoo_property"], "category": ["ORGANIZATION"] ,"context": " Dog health food Dog health problem Yahoo! TV Staying in tonight? Check listings to see" , "metaData": { "yprop_name": "Yahoo! TV", "yprop_url": "http://tv.yahoo.com/" } }, "lw_1184108750_19": { "text": "Staying in tonight?", "extended": 0, "startchar": 9172, "endchar": 9190, "start": 9172,
"end": 9190, "extendedFrom": "", "weight": 1, "type": ["shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/hyperlink/http"], "category": ["IDENTIFIER"] ,"context": " food Dog health problem Yahoo! TV Staying in tonight? Check listings to see what is on. " , "metaData": { "linkHref": "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12je4lmd2/M=493064.10729663.11333354.8674578/D=groups/S=1707421080:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184049029/A=3848445/R=0/SIG=10t28jksf/*http://tv.yahoo.com/lineup/", "linkProtocol": "http", "linkRel": "nofollow", "linkTarget": "_blank" } }, "lw_1184108750_20": { "text": "Build a web site", "extended": 0, "startchar": 9650, "endchar": 9665, "start": 9650, "end": 9665, "extendedFrom": "", "weight": 1, "type": ["shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/hyperlink/http"], "category": ["IDENTIFIER"] ,"context": " to see what is on. Sitebuilder Build a web site quickly easily with Sitebuilder. " , "metaData": { "linkHref":
"http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jsbust0/M=493064.10729657.11333348.8674578/D=groups/S=1707421080:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184049029/A=4025304/R=0/SIG=12uhb64pb/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44092/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting/sitebuilding.php", "linkProtocol": "http", "linkRel": "nofollow", "linkTarget": "_blank" } }, "lw_1184108750_21": { "text": "Share recipes,", "extended": 0, "startchar": 10082, "endchar": 10095, "start": 10082, "end": 10095, "extendedFrom": "", "weight": 1, "type": ["shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/hyperlink/http"], "category": ["IDENTIFIER"] ,"context": " Sitebuilder. Real Food Group Share recipes, restaurant ratings and favorite meals. " , "metaData": { "linkHref": "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jr4m0v1/M=493064.11036139.11614791.8674578/D=groups/S=1707421080:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1184049029/A=4725794/R=0/SIG=1192rfjiu/*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/realfood/", "linkProtocol": "http", "linkRel": "nofollow", "linkTarget": "_blank" } } };
YAHOO.Shortcuts.overlaySpaceId = "97546169"; YAHOO.Shortcuts.hostSpaceId = "97546168"; Hi, Linda!
Is Sass still trying to steal his food? ; )

Raw food is perceived by dogs (rightly so) as of higher value than
kibble. So, he may be protecting his cherished food from the feline
predator. Maybe he never viewed her as a rival before.

I'd feed them separately, each in a crate or confined somehow, so that
neither has to feel in competition with the other for the good stuff.

In most supermarkets, you can get little tubs of chicken liver and
packs of mixed heart and gizzards. While not the epitome of organ
variety, they *are all organs and can satisfy the requirements. Ask
the meat 'man' in the back what days they are usually available. If
you buy whole chickens, usually the heart, gizzard and liver are
packed inside the cavity.
TC
Giselle

> Since I have started raw feeding about 8 days ago, everything seemed
to be doing ok, but my dog Gizzy is picking on my cat really bad. I am
worried about her. So far I have been feeding chicken and pork, and I
can't find any organs, anywhere in this town. So is she ok, just
feeding what I am feeding her? And whats up with my dog?
>
> Linda

---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
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Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:35 pm ((PDT))

Start with 2-3% of ideal adult body weight and adjust based on activity
level and whether your dog is over or underweight. Smaller dogs
usually need a higher percentage of food per body weight. That is the
ball park, but it's not critical, and you just give something a try and
see how it goes. You may get loose stools if you feed too much, and if
you do, then you can cut down a little. My 20 lb. Boston usually eats
about 3/4 lb. a day or a little less (between 3-4% of his body
weight). I hear about big dogs being closer to 2%. But it really
depends on the dog.

If you need more info, feel free to post, but there's also a wealth of
info in past posts--read 'em all for a day or two and try searching the
archives.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:24 pm ((PDT))

So my welsh terrier, ideal adult weight 20 pounds, should eat .6 [that's point 6, not 6! haha] pounds of food a day. correct?, despite his weighing only around 12 pounds at this point. So far so good with chicken and beef! Gotta get movin' on some meat smothered bones though...tomorrow!

Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com> wrote: Start with 2-3% of ideal adult body weight and adjust based on activity
level and whether your dog is over or underweight. Smaller dogs
usually need a higher percentage of food per body weight. That is the
ball park, but it's not critical, and you just give something a try and
see how it goes. You may get loose stools if you feed too much, and if
you do, then you can cut down a little. My 20 lb. Boston usually eats
about 3/4 lb. a day or a little less (between 3-4% of his body
weight). I hear about big dogs being closer to 2%. But it really
depends on the dog.

If you need more info, feel free to post, but there's also a wealth of
info in past posts--read 'em all for a day or two and try searching the
archives.

Laurie

Lyse

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:21 pm ((PDT))

2-3% of ideal adult weight per day...tons of meat (up to 80%), a little bone
and some organs!

What have you been feeding?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "alluponjanice" <alluponjanice@yahoo.com>

I raw feed and Ive gotten so many different formulas on how much to
feed my dogs on a daily basis. help please!!!!!!!

Messages in this topic (5)
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5d. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
Posted by: "ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ" luvthisphysique@yahoo.com luvthisphysique
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:45 pm ((PDT))

what would you recommend as far as eating tons of
meat? your response would be much appreciated. thank
you

Anthony Rodriguez

____________________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. cow tail
Posted by: "fillermac" jkffiller@msn.com fillermac
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, I have a cow tail but it is sliced. Can I still feed it. It has a
lot of fat. Should I trim the fat off? Thanks for your help, Chevy

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: cow tail
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

"fillermac" <jkffiller@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I have a cow tail but it is sliced. Can I still feed it. It has a
> lot of fat. Should I trim the fat off?
*****
What size dog are you feeding and into what size slices has the tail
been sliced?

If your dog is an experienced raw eater you might be able to feed the
fat. If your dog is new you'll probably want to trim fat.

OTOH if the dog is big and the slices are small you may not want to
waste time trimming the fat since the bones may be too small for safe
eating anyway. Most of the time oxtail slices are too small for safe
eating.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Pork Ribs
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi Guys,

I've got two slabs of pork ribs to feed my jrt and whippet x with.
Should I add some more meat to the meals or just feed as is?

Evie

Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: Pork Ribs
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

as i've said once before, my 8 lb. miniature dachshund eats pork ribs
like they're sandwiches. :T it amazes me what they can do.

tammy

Messages in this topic (7)
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7c. Re: Pork Ribs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi Evie,

It doesn't matter much. You wouldn't want to feed only ribs and
other boney items all the time, but for one meal or so, you can go
either way. I'd say it depends on how meaty the ribs are, what
you've been feeding lately, and how much bone your dogs tend to do
best with. If you've been feeding boney items and you feed these
alone, you'll probably get white, crumbly poops and possibly some
constipation. You may choose to add some meat (I probably would,
myself). Although, ribs are fatty, so that helps lube the system,
too. If you've been feeding boneless meals, you might just feed
these on their own.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Evie" <archie.willow@...> wrote:
I've got two slabs of pork ribs to feed my jrt and whippet x with.
> Should I add some more meat to the meals or just feed as is?
>
> Evie
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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7d. Re: Pork Ribs
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:54 pm ((PDT))

I add a nice side of organ with ribs. My dog is a little sensitive when
it comes to organs, and since ribs have a bit more bone, I can get away
with feeding a little more organ than usual. I try to follow up the
next day with a nice meaty meal to balance out the ribs.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: Fermented stomach grass
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

On Jul 10, 2007, at 12:33 PM, Jen wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hey, at least you're trying! People here shouldn't be so hard on you.
>
> No kidding! Like I said when I got berated for buying the same exact
> stuff, I'm willing to pay a couple of bucks for a treat for my dogs or
> to try something once.

Hey, I don't think it was supposed to be hard on you. I know I felt
that you got ripped off bigtime by people making a totally useless,
pointless product. I resent the capitalization on the illness of our
dogs, brought on by our being duped initially. No insult to you meant
whatsoever, but this sort of thing really gets me going.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. Re: Bone shards - questions
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:18 pm ((PDT))

Courtney, how much meat are you feeding?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Courtney" <courtneyredhead@yahoo.com>

I'm still fairly new at raw feeding. We've been at it for 3 months. I am
concerned about the
little, sharp shards of bone I'm finding in my dog's stools. They're smaller
than a dime but
bigger than the eraser on a pencil.

Should I change their RMBs to something other than beef ribs, pork necks,
chicken?

Messages in this topic (6)
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9b. Re: Bone shards - questions
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:44 pm ((PDT))

Oh my! Too funny! What a visual. . . LMBO! Tamatha

In a message dated 7/10/2007 6:28:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brutus_buckley@yahoo.com writes:

//Are they immediately visible or are
> you poking through the stools like a safari tracker? //

***LOL Chris; this is definitely the quote of the day.

-Renee W.

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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9c. Re: Bone shards - questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brutus_buckley"
<brutus_buckley@...> wrote:
>
> //Are they immediately visible or are
> > you poking through the stools like a safari tracker? //
>
> ***LOL Chris; this is definitely the quote of the day.
*****
Renee, I gotta tell ya, the book "Born Free" made a huge impression on
me when I was a kid. I remember reading about the Adamsons following
the lions, examining their spoor. Except that I thought spoor meant
feces and couldn't figure out why they were looking at feces.

And then I learned that spoor was also the animal's track or trail.
And then I learned that feces are indeed examined, and quite closely.

All because of Elsa. Yeesh.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:23 pm ((PDT))

The studies show otherwise. It is *not* protein that causes out of control
growth....in fact, it is just the opposite. You will have issues by
reducing protein! Species appropriate does not change depending upon breed!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Angela Brown" <irisbarbata@yahoo.com>

Hi I have a 13 month old English Mastiff who was raised and still is
on raw. I totally disagree with thinking it's the same as raising any
other breed of dog - this is simply false. They should have a lower
protein level then other breeds during growth to avoid them growing
too fast. i.e. NOT lots and lots of meat and a little bit of bone.

Angie Brown

Messages in this topic (9)
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11a. Re: EPI
Posted by: "Andrea Bryan Hoss" andreabryanhoss@yahoo.com andreabryanhoss
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, K9FindM@... wrote:
Did you have your dogs blood
tested?? And if so, what does it show?
>
> Maria

Yes, I had my dog's blood tested, and it was bloody expensive. The
test measures the concentration of trypsin, produced by the
pancreas. Laika measured at 2.0 = EPI. At the time, I too had her on
a "high quality" kibble (believe me when I tell you that feeding raw
is actually cheaper than what I was feeding my dog). When I started
giving her the Pancrezyme (pancreatic supplement), there was an
improvement; she went from brown water poop to cow patties. My vet
didn't know much about tweaking her diet other than recommending
Hills Science Diet -- even when I was a kibble feeder I wouldn't
give my dogs that crap. So, I found a holistic vet that
specialized in nutrition. She told me about feeding raw b/c of the
enzymes that are so desperately needed, but are gone from cooked
food. She did recommend veggies, and normally she encouraged grains,
but not with an EPI dog; their pancreas cannot handle any grains.
She actually recommended using sweet potato instead of grains. I
said "hmm" to that, got online to do more research, found this list,
started feeding prey model raw, 80% muscle meat, 10%edible bone, 10%
organ, supplement with salmon oil, no veggies or grains, and I have
cut her Pancrezyme by
1/3. I have an extremely healthy, Firm Poop Dog. My "regular" vet
is amazed; so am I!

Here are a couple more articles to look at. They are actually
published vet research papers,one of them gets technical, but it is
a good read.
>
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23404.htm
>

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?
CID=WSAVA2003&PID=6553&O=Generic

Also, has your dog been tested for inflammatory bowel disease or
small intestinal bacterial overgrowth? The symptoms are simmilar to
EPI.

-Andrea, Laika & Squirt
>
>

> >
>
> >
>

> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
free from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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12. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank ~~how old is too old?
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:44 pm ((PDT))

"Shop around, ethnic markets, hunters cleaning out their freezers for this
fall is
a good freebie to look for too. All our friends and family know to empty
their meat freezers on us."

Question about "freezer emptying":

How old is too old to feed to a puppy or a dog? What is the rule of thumb?
Venison different from other types of meats--or is there a general overall
rule?

Thanks~

Tamatha

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Needing help on my second night of raw
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

Eve wrote:

> Thanks so much! This definitely makes me feel more confident in what I'm doing.

My pleasure! Keep us posted on your progress.

> I am just feeding him once in the evening---this is ok?

I feed twice a day, but mine are 50 - 80 pounds each. I can't imagine how you
would split 5 to 11 ounces of food into two meals without going insane.

Search in the archives for "gorge" for more information from those that feed
LESS than once a day.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11787

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
From: Tina Berry

2a. Re: question about chicken wings
From: Andrea
2b. Re: question about chicken wings
From: Mike Devlin
2c. Re: question about chicken wings
From: Margaret Martell
2d. Re: question about chicken wings
From: Mike Devlin

3a. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
From: costrowski75

4. Small Dogs, Frozen Food
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)

5a. Re: Fermented stomach grass
From: Jen

6a. Re: EPI
From: Andrea Bryan Hoss
6b. Re: EPI
From: K9FindM@aol.com

7a. Getting ready to take the plunge!
From: Jen
7b. Getting ready to take the plunge!
From: costrowski75
7c. Getting ready to take the plunge!
From: brutus_buckley

8a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Angela Brown
8b. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Katie Baker
8c. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Laura Atkinson
8d. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: costrowski75
8e. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: brutus_buckley

9a. What is "Trim"
From: cresco299
9b. Re: What is "Trim"
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: What is "Trim"
From: cresco299

10a. Bone shards - questions
From: Courtney
10b. Re: Bone shards - questions
From: costrowski75
10c. Re: Bone shards - questions
From: brutus_buckley

11. what is correct amount of food to feed
From: alluponjanice

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

They poop way less; maybe once a day - if they poop more then it usually
means you are over feeding. Yes, the color will vary, darker meats, darker
poop. Organs make for runny dark poop if given too much. Bone will firm it
up.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: question about chicken wings
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

That depends on how much is a bunch. If it is a bag of them I would
just make myself some hotwings. If it is a whole lot of them (20lbs or
so) I would get imaginative in how I could not waste them. Maybe pack
ground beef around them and freeze or something. If you have a cat,
they might like them. I wouldn't feed wings as is to a medium dog
though.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "emdeefa" <mdevlin@...> wrote:
> My question though is that last week I got a bunch of
> chicken wings that I had intended to feed to him, but I have seen a
> couple posts since I purchased them that said chicken wings are not
> the best thing to feed since they are so small, and might be swallowed
> whole and cause a choking/obstruction hazard.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: question about chicken wings
Posted by: "Mike Devlin" mdevlin@aisle10.net emdeefa
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT))

Its only about 6lbs or so, now I am thinking I have been cutting up the
whole chicken way too small. aside from like a the drum sticks, i think all
the pieces were probably not much bigger than the chicken wings. The whole
bone part has me completely scared. Some of the bones in steak and pork can
break their teeth?

Thanks
Mike

On 7/10/07, Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> That depends on how much is a bunch. If it is a bag of them I would
> just make myself some hotwings. If it is a whole lot of them (20lbs or
> so) I would get imaginative in how I could not waste them. Maybe pack
> ground beef around them and freeze or something. If you have a cat,
> they might like them. I wouldn't feed wings as is to a medium dog
> though.
>
> Andrea
>
>

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: question about chicken wings
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:03 pm ((PDT))

Mike Devlin <mdevlin@aisle10.net> wrote: Its only about 6lbs or so, now I am thinking I have been cutting up the
whole chicken way too small. aside from like a the drum sticks, i think all
the pieces were probably not much bigger than the chicken wings. The whole
bone part has me completely scared. Some of the bones in steak and pork can
break their teeth?
********
Mike -
Chicken wings are too boney and too small to feed all by themselves. I'd cook the wings for myself. You can feed wings, just make sure they're still attached to the bird. Feed half a chicken or a chicken quarter, that's probably the smallest you want to go.
Feeding bones can be scary for newbies. I know I was scared when I first started, but it's all good. Dogs are made to eat these, as well as lots and lots of meat. The benefits are incredible once the feeling of being scared goes away (and it will, if you stick with the raw feeding).
Steak, or beef, bones are considered "wreck" bones and I wouldn't feed them. They can cause breakage-hence the "wreck" nickname. Pork bones are quite edible in my opinion. My dog eats any kind of pork bone no problem; keep in mind that these bones are imbedded in a bunch of meat, though.
Hope this helps a little bit.
Margaret & Zahra

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: question about chicken wings
Posted by: "Mike Devlin" mdevlin@aisle10.net emdeefa
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

I was amazed at the night and day difference after I switched to raw. My dog
hated eating kibble since I got him 6 months ago. It got to the point where
I was playing little games with the food to get him to eat, like making
trails on the ground out of the food for him to follow, and he also normally
had pretty loose stools on good days, diarrhea on bad ones, but he took to
eating raw immediately, no more loose stools and he runs to the back door
every morning and when I get home from work because he cant wait to eat.

I am still uncomfortable with the whole concept of the food being raw and
especially the bones, mostly because of it being hammered into my head as I
grew up how bad it is for a dog to eat a chicken bone (cooked or not), but I
felt like I was doing more harm knowingly letting him eat kibble.

I'll stick to the chicken quarters, or just cutting the whole chicken into
larger sections, and maybe try some pork

This list has been an immense amount of help and support

- Thanks
Mike

On 7/10/07, Margaret Martell <zahrammm1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Mike -
> Chicken wings are too boney and too small to feed all by themselves. I'd
> cook the wings for myself. You can feed wings, just make sure they're still
> attached to the bird. Feed half a chicken or a chicken quarter, that's
> probably the smallest you want to go.
> Feeding bones can be scary for newbies. I know I was scared when I first
> started, but it's all good. Dogs are made to eat these, as well as lots and
> lots of meat. The benefits are incredible once the feeling of being scared
> goes away (and it will, if you stick with the raw feeding).
> Steak, or beef, bones are considered "wreck" bones and I wouldn't feed
> them. They can cause breakage-hence the "wreck" nickname. Pork bones are
> quite edible in my opinion. My dog eats any kind of pork bone no problem;
> keep in mind that these bones are imbedded in a bunch of meat, though.
> Hope this helps a little bit.
> Margaret & Zahra
>
>

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Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:57 am ((PDT))

shefy gupta <shefy7@...> wrote:
i don't use the ones that are mixed in with other stuff like veggies
and stuff. he only gets meat or meat with bone/organ.
*****
Well, it disappoints me to learn that you are not feeding whole meats
and whole meaty bones. You are doing your Snowy a disservice
physically, mentally and with regard to dental hygiene.

You do not--ever--resolve issues by avoiding them. They just sit
there, looming ever larger, ever more ominious, gathering intensity
and malignancy. Your concerns can be be sensibly and reasonably
address by feeding meaty bones that are appropriate for Snowy. Not
bones that are too small, not bones that are too bony, but bones (to
quote Goldilocks) that are just right. The more danger you ascribe
to lovely species appropriate bones, the more impossible they will
become for you.

And it will be all your doing.

Food aggression is not about food, or at least not just about food.
Whether you feed whole food or kibble or something in between you
must deal proactively with the aggression issues. This is not a
normal, healthy response and again, you are not doing Snowy any
favors by allowing it to go unaddressed.

I urge you to seek professional help with Snowy's aggression, and
give serious consideration to chronic health issues that may be at
the root of the problem. I know you have posted to RawChat; that
would be a fine place for further discussion.

Good luck to you and Snowy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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4. Small Dogs, Frozen Food
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

I sent my five pound Toy Poodle into convulsions by feeding her very
cold (not frozen) chopped raw chicken. It turns out that she was able to
eat it so fast (chopped goes down faster) in such an amount that it
drastically lowered her body temperature. This sent her into
convulsions.

It's not that the really little dogs have "issues" with frozen or very
cold food; it's true for all dogs, and humans, too, that if the body
temperature is lowered drastically, convulsions will result. So, now if
I am going to feed her I make sure the food has reached close to room
temperature first. Overkill on my part, for sure.

This frozen food mini-issue is not going to be of any interest to people
with dogs who weigh 10 - 15 pounds or more. However, it is of intense
interest to the owners of tiny dogs. The convulsions were terrifying
(for me) and lasted for around 70 seconds.

The good news is, no damage was done, at least, none that I can see.
Yippee!

Carolyn J. Garnaas And Molly; Toy Poodle, Athlete, Model, Intellectual

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Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Fermented stomach grass
Posted by: "Jen" jboydmorin@gmail.com choirgirl_21
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
> Hey, at least you're trying! People here shouldn't be so hard on you.

No kidding! Like I said when I got berated for buying the same exact
stuff, I'm willing to pay a couple of bucks for a treat for my dogs or
to try something once.

Anyway, my actual experience was that my dogs wouldn't eat it, go
figure. I wouldn't worry about the vomiting though - like someone
else said, a lot of dogs vomit grass. I'd just pass it on to another
dog owner who might like to have it, or pitch it.

Jen

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: EPI
Posted by: "Andrea Bryan Hoss" andreabryanhoss@yahoo.com andreabryanhoss
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

Just wondering if anyone on this lists knows much about this
deficiency - especially at what age do you see it?? I know GSD's are
the worst for it.
>

>

Maria;
I have an 18 month old GSD with EPI. I would get your dog off of
every and any cooked or kibbled food PRONTO. IF your dog has EPI,
grains are like poison for him. I switched my girl to prey model raw
b/c of her EPI, and the difference has been dramatic ---for good!

Your dog is at the perfect age for EPI :(, usually occurring btwn
9months - 2 years. The classic symptoms are diarrhea (moderate
to "cannon-butt"), HUGE appetite but actually losing weight (b/c the
pancreas is diseased and cannot digest/absorb the nutrients and
calories he needs. Your dog seems to be having a severe reaction to
something; I've never heard of EPI being this dramatic (mine behaved
quite normally, except she looked like a scarecrow dog & yes,
massive, explosive diarrhea). That being said, every dog is
different; let us know what the results of the test are.

There seems to be a lot of yo-yoing with your dog's diet, which is
not going to help matters, especially swinging from kibble to raw&
back again. Try sticking to a single protein source such as raw
chicken. Also, do a search for EPI, there are several articles, one
of them is

http://www.regalwise.com/health/pid.html.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!

Andrea, Laika & Squirt
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: EPI
Posted by: "K9FindM@aol.com" K9FindM@aol.com bctwister03
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:35 pm ((PDT))

There is no yo-yoing, just trying to get back from him having severe hooks and an infection.? He has been on kibble and raw from day one. If we go to PR events and eventually, deployments, I cannot carry raw with me.? Though everytime I go to feed raw again (since he was sick in June), he is having a severe reaction - the only elements are uncooked and higher protein.? My understanding with EPI is that you need the enzymes on the food to support the gut in digesting and allowing your dog to take in all of the nutrients.? He is on a very high quality kibble, plus I have several other dogs on this with raw and they do just fine.? Did you have your dogs blood tested?? And if so, what does it show?

Maria

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Bryan Hoss <andreabryanhoss@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 3:34 pm
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: EPI

Just wondering if anyone on this lists knows much about this
deficiency - especially at what age do you see it?? I know GSD's are
the worst for it.
>

Your dog is at the perfect age for EPI :(, usually occurring btwn
9months - 2 years. The classic symptoms are diarrhea (moderate
to "cannon-butt"), HUGE appetite but actually losing weight (b/c the
pancreas is diseased and cannot digest/absorb the nutrients and
calories he needs. Your dog seems to be having a severe reaction to
something; I've never heard of EPI being this dramatic (mine behaved
quite normally, except she looked like a scarecrow dog & yes,
massive, explosive diarrhea). That being said, every dog is
different; let us know what the results of the test are.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!

Andrea, Laika & Squirt
>

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Getting ready to take the plunge!
Posted by: "Jen" jboydmorin@gmail.com choirgirl_21
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:20 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...>
wrote:
I work very full time, and am not committed to a full raw diet,
especially since most of my time off is spent backpacking with my
dog...where I am eating "human kibble" AKA dehydrated food...cuz wet
food spoils.

Hey Lori, I camp/hike/backpack a lot myself and am quite familiar with
the dehydrated food you're referring to. But calling it human kibble
isn't an appropriate analogy. The difference is, dog kibble contains
grains that are not species appropriate and are unhealthy for your dog.

I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at, or just that feeding
raw on backpacking trips would be hard. If you meant the latter,
search for my recent post on this. Kibble is actually heavy, and
there are lighter-weight options than kibble for a raw fed dog on a
backpacking trip!

FYI, I also work full time - once you do the initial research to find
good supply options, feeding raw is really not more time consuming
than feeding kibble.
>
> Isn't there something to be gained from some raw meat, for those
of us who are not going to be feeding a full raw diet? I am asking
because I don't want to give partial raw, if it would be harmful, and
I doubt my current lifestyle would allow full raw feeding.
>
I think there is something to be gained from feeding raw meaty bones
on occasion, primarily the teeth cleaning benefits and all the other
health benefits that come from that as a result.

Having said that, I would encourage you to explore your current
perceptions of feeding raw and see if it's really as difficult or
time-consuming (or expensive or dangerous or whatever might be holding
you back) as you think. While you'll hear the moderators say this
isn't a forum for discussing whether or not to feed raw, you can find
the answers to any concerns you might have addressed here by searching
the archives.

My own personal note, I fed morning kibble, evening chk backs for at
least a year to my female. When I finally made the switch completely
to raw I was dumbfounded at how easy it was and have always regretted
not doing it sooner.

Jen

Messages in this topic (15)
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7b. Getting ready to take the plunge!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:42 pm ((PDT))

"Jen" <jboydmorin@...> wrote:
> My own personal note, I fed morning kibble, evening chk backs for at
> least a year to my female. When I finally made the switch completely
> to raw I was dumbfounded at how easy it was and have always regretted
> not doing it sooner.
>
> Jen
*****
Jen, this is a fine post. Thank you for taking the time to put it
together.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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7c. Getting ready to take the plunge!
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:15 pm ((PDT))

//My common sense answer to this PLEASE FEEL FREE to feed a partial raw
diet...OK all of you experts and fanatics, who of you will deny that a
partial raw diet is worse than a 0% raw diet????//

***One feeding a 'mix' may incorrectly beleive that the effects of
feeding kibble are negated by 'supplementing' with raw meat. I know a
few people who feed/think this way. It's like saying it's OK to eat Big-
Macs everyday as long as you throw in a salad. It's a slippery slope.
Also, raw and kibble digest at different rates, potentially causing
digestive upset.

Though I am no expert or fanatic, I would not recommend a 'partial'
diet anymore than I would recommend an all-kibble diet; I do not
endorse kibble in any amount.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (15)
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8a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Angela Brown" irisbarbata@yahoo.com irisbarbata
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

Angie Brown

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> >From: "nathaliebiron" <nathaliebiron@...>
>
>
> >Hi everyone!!! Can you give me some advices. I'll have my mastiff
> >puppy next year and I want to be ready !! Is somebody who have a giant
> >breed, how did you start, what did you give your puppy (ex.: chicken
> >neck, chicken leg... etc)
>
> Same way you would feed any other puppy...lots and lots of meat, a
little
> edible bone and a bit of organs! Easy!!!
>
> A couple of recent weaning/puppy feeding messages.....
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847
>
> Do a search in the archives where you will find lots to occupy you
for the
> next few months!! :))
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Katie Baker" declansmama@gmail.com katherinebaker2
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:35 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Brown" <irisbarbata@...>
wrote:
> They should have a lower
> protein level then other breeds during growth to avoid them growing
> too fast. i.e. NOT lots and lots of meat and a little bit of bone.
>
> Angie Brown

Lol, then what would you suggest Angie? The poster is just excited and
wants some recommendations on what to feed. An answer like yours could
cause me to spend hours looking for something to back it up.

Katie

Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Puppies is puppies. The increased growth problems and restriction of
protein you're basing this on is, I'll bet, based on crap-inabag puppy
raising.

They need the same thing adults do, some bone, lotsa meat and some
organ. I'd hazard a guess that it's even MORE important for puppies
than adults not to overdo the bone, as then they're lacking a lot of
the nutrients in meat that they need to grow up healthy.

Fast growth isn't an issue on raw. The lovely, natural rate of growth
is supported by a natural, raw diet.

For your new puppy, you'll know what to approximate for an adult
weight, feed about 3% of that a day, divided into as many meals as
you're going to feed (2-3 depending on the age you get him/her). I
imagine hacking up a chicken is going to be the easiest way for you to
start.

On 7/10/07, Angela Brown <irisbarbata@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi I have a 13 month old English Mastiff who was raised and still is
> on raw. I totally disagree with thinking it's the same as raising any
> other breed of dog - this is simply false. They should have a lower
> protein level then other breeds during growth to avoid them growing
> too fast. i.e. NOT lots and lots of meat and a little bit of bone.
>
> Angie Brown
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (8)
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8d. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

"Angela Brown" <irisbarbata@...> wrote:
>
> Hi I have a 13 month old English Mastiff who was raised and still is
> on raw. I totally disagree with thinking it's the same as raising any
> other breed of dog - this is simply false. They should have a lower
> protein level then other breeds during growth to avoid them growing
> too fast. i.e. NOT lots and lots of meat and a little bit of bone.
*****
Angela, you can disagree all you want--and grow your pups any way you
see fit--but I promise you: you cannot feed a healthy dog too much
protein. It is NOT protein that wreaks havoc with the development of
large breed pups. It is too much food overall (resulting in fatty
pups), or the wrong amount of calcium at the wrong age, or
inappropriate exercise, or genetics. Or a combination. But protein,
being one of two nutritional building blocks of all dogs, should never
be stinted on.

The myth of "too much protein" is laid to rest in many sources. At the
very least check out http://rawfed.com for more information.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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8e. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:36 pm ((PDT))

// Hi I have a 13 month old English Mastiff who was raised and still is
> on raw. I totally disagree with thinking it's the same as raising any
> other breed of dog - this is simply false. //

***Regardless of the breed, a proper raw diet will allow puppies to
develop and grow at a normal rate. Many of the health issues commonly
associated with rapid growth stem from feeding "puppy food." Individual
dogs may have unique dietary needs; that one breed of dog has unique
nutritional requirements over another is, as you put it, simply false.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. What is "Trim"
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:00 pm ((PDT))

I was just reviewing the archives and noticed that a lot of people
feed Beef Trim, Pork Trim, Lamb Trim etc.

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is "Trim"? Is it a special cut
or just the overall trimmings from the animal?

Thanks!

Jeff
Cresco, PA

Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: What is "Trim"
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:06 pm ((PDT))

"cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@...> wrote:
>
> I was just reviewing the archives and noticed that a lot of people
> feed Beef Trim, Pork Trim, Lamb Trim etc.
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is "Trim"? Is it a special cut
> or just the overall trimmings from the animal?
*****
It's just plain old uncomplicated, unappreciated, generally inexpensive
flesh, fat, connective tissue and simetimes even skin trimmed away from
the stuff that's meant for "human" consumption. Sometimes it's flesh
cut away from a bone, sometimes it's aged, dirty or otherwise icky
flesh trimmed off the pristine meat below. Sometimes it's fat cut away
to produce an even "lean" layer of fat. Sometimes it's untidy meat
trimmed awa6y to make the final presentation cut look with all that
money.

Venison trim from a busy or careless butcher can be a major socre in a
raw feeder's life!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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9c. Re: What is "Trim"
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:46 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> Venison trim from a busy or careless butcher can be a major socre in a
> raw feeder's life!
> Chris O
>

Good to know! I'll keep my eyes peeled come hunting season.

Thanks-
Jeff

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Bone shards - questions
Posted by: "Courtney" courtneyredhead@yahoo.com courtneyredhead
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

I'm still fairly new at raw feeding. We've been at it for 3 months. I am concerned about the
little, sharp shards of bone I'm finding in my dog's stools. They're smaller than a dime but
bigger than the eraser on a pencil.

Should I change their RMBs to something other than beef ribs, pork necks, chicken?

I'm perplexed and need some input.

Thanks so much!
Courtney

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Bone shards - questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:14 pm ((PDT))

"Courtney" <courtneyredhead@...> wrote:

We've been at it for 3 months. I am concerned about the
> little, sharp shards of bone I'm finding in my dog's stools.
They're smaller than a dime but
> bigger than the eraser on a pencil.
*****
How often are you finding these? Are they immediately visible or are
you poking through the stools like a safari tracker? Do they appear
after all bone-in meals? How much bone are you feeding? Similarly,
how much meat are you feeding? Do these bone bits bother your dogs,
or just you?

> Should I change their RMBs to something other than beef ribs, pork
necks, chicken?
*****
My guess is, without further input from you, that you are feeding
bones with not nearly enough meat on them. Beef ribs are notorious
for being inadequately meaty. Pork necks are also classic examples
of bones with not enough meat on them. And with chicken, if you are
feeding parts like necks, wings and backs and you are NOT feeding the
meatier parts like breasts and leg/thighs, then yup, you've got
yourself a third repeat offender of too much dietary bone.

I'd bet if you were to add meat to each and every one of these bony
meals you'd stop seeing bony bits.

That said, unless your dogs are uncomfortable producing these bony
bits, it's not likely the bony bits are a problem.

Think back over the last three months, think about how much bone you
have fed. If you have recollections of lots of visible bone, if you
can't say that most of the meals have been meaty delights, then there
is an outstanding chance that you've been chintzing on your dogs'
meat intake.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Bone shards - questions
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

//Are they immediately visible or are
> you poking through the stools like a safari tracker? //

***LOL Chris; this is definitely the quote of the day.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (3)
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11. what is correct amount of food to feed
Posted by: "alluponjanice" alluponjanice@yahoo.com alluponjanice
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:16 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I raw feed and Ive gotten so many different formulas on how much to
feed my dogs on a daily basis. help please!!!!!!!

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11786

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. crystals
From: betty hinson
1b. Re: crystals
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Squid?
From: woofwoofgrrl
2b. Re: Squid?
From: Yasuko herron

3. 3rd week of raw..
From: Kathleen

4a. Re: Cushings Disease
From: betty hinson

5a. Re: chicken feet gone wrong
From: Andrea
5b. Re: chicken feet gone wrong
From: Bearhair

6. Raw suppliers needed in the Norfolk/Suffolk Area
From: Gavin Gunn

7a. EPI
From: K9FindM@aol.com
7b. Re: EPI
From: Shannon Parker

8a. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
From: kimberlykay1119
8b. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
From: kimberlykay1119

9. question about chicken wings
From: emdeefa

10a. Re: labwork
From: Laura Wilburn
10b. ADMIN/Re: labwork
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Needing help on my second night of raw
From: Eve

12a. Re: Mix Meat
From: Cathy Lynn

13a. Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
From: unjustifiedwings
13b. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
From: costrowski75
13c. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
From: Yasuko herron

14a. Re: Fermented stomach grass
From: Nathalie Poulin

15. What's wrong with cooked?
From: ginny wilken

16a. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
From: shefy gupta
16b. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
From: shefy gupta

Messages
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1a. crystals
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:19 am ((PDT))

Would you feed a dog who as crystals in his urine raw food?
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

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Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: crystals
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

"betty hinson" <b_hinson@...> wrote:
>
> Would you feed a dog who as crystals in his urine raw food?
*****
Yes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:19 am ((PDT))

> question might be not would the wolf eat the squid but rather would
> the wolf roll on the dead squid.

Is that really a question? Any self-respecting wolf would certainly
roll on the dead squid! "Eau D'Squid" is a highly sought after
fragrance that is available only to those wolves who can afford a
vacation on the beach!

Christine

Messages in this topic (18)
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2b. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

Hi,Lora.again,your link here was interesting to read.Thanks.

I have experienced my dog going to potty and pee zillions of times after feeding herring in salt water(I think it was way too salty I guess),if the ink was salty taste due canned,then,I may wash it off very well and feed the canned squid in ink,I guess.If the squid was from fresh fish counter,then,I could try feeding,probably no salt in ink.

I usually taste canned fish to taste saltiness and I can taste ink too next time.I have never tasted it before so interesting for me too.

This morning,I fed scallop to my dog and she loved it. I bought scallop because it was on sale and she got 1/4lb and we human gets 3/4lb:-P

I like feeding many different interesting things to my dog:-P

Since she is not vomiting and she is not ringing the gottago bell yet,so,I think the scallop staying in her tummy and no prob at all.

thanks,again

yassy

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3. 3rd week of raw..
Posted by: "Kathleen" kbabcock1@yahoo.com kbabcock1
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:26 am ((PDT))

After many horrible starts, panicked humans and possibly dog, she is finally in heaven. Evidently, she will not eat anything poultry or fish, except for tuna out of a can. I wont feed her that again. She is happy with her pork, beef, lamb and will be trying other items. I found a NYrawfeeding group that comes together to order large amount of items for savings. If you are in NY city or surrounding area, it might help your rawfeeding days. NYRawfeeders is the name of the group. My dogs coat is shiny, the poop now longer has to be held at an arms length, and she actually loves her food, I never knew-too bad all those years I have had animals, I never had the delight of watching a dog really eat they way they are supposed to, absolute nirvana....
Kathleen

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4a. Re: Cushings Disease
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:28 am ((PDT))

what do you mean by specie approipate diet in your standard??
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

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Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: chicken feet gone wrong
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:48 am ((PDT))

You might have to check with your dogs on this one. Pugs are pretty
sturdy little things, so they might not have a problem with frozen
foods. I've heard of Chihuahuas and the more dainty of small dogs
having issues with frozen foods, but Suz has French Bulldogs and I'm
pretty sure they do ok with frozen.

A couple of frozen chicken feet would probably be a good place to start
with them. If they don't show any signs of being cold after eating
them you might try feeding them some frozen meals to see how they do.
I know some people who have quite small dogs that don't have an issue
with frozen foods, just one more of those "know thy dog" things.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> This is a great idea for me, Andrea, thanks. I have inhaling pugs.
> But I read on the forum that I shouldn't give frozen meat, etc., to a
> small dog. I've misunderstoo then?

Messages in this topic (11)
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5b. Re: chicken feet gone wrong
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))

Silvina wrote:

Andrea wrote:

>> maybe you could get two or three wet and freeze them into a clump?
>Of course, if you can't
>> use them, you can always send them my way (=

>This is a great idea for me, Andrea, thanks. I have inhaling pugs. But
>I read on the forum that I shouldn't give frozen meat, etc., to a small
>dog. I've misunderstoo then?

It has been noted that a large quantity of frozen meat can lower the body
temperature of a very small dog.

A couple of pig's feet in a sturdy pug will be no problem.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (11)
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6. Raw suppliers needed in the Norfolk/Suffolk Area
Posted by: "Gavin Gunn" meganhayleyfinn@yahoo.co.uk meganhayleyfinn
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

Dear All

Im having a bit of difficulty finding suppliers locally for my raw fed
golden retriever. I have found a poultry supplier, but have not yet
found a good source for other raw meaty bones and offal. We dont have
a massive fridge so are unable to by in bulk from a supplier further
away, so must purchase food every 1-2 weeks at the latest. Also dont
want to buy food from expensive sources.Does anyone out there know
where I can get all the food my dog needs from reputable local
suppliers within the Norfolk/Suffolk regions. If it helps I live in
Norwich.

ps. Ideally I am wanting to feed my dog the prey model

Thanks in advance

Gavin Gunn

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. EPI
Posted by: "K9FindM@aol.com" K9FindM@aol.com bctwister03
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

OK - anyone on this list familiar with EPI?? I have a 10 month old GSD puppy at the vets now that was very sick overnight and this morning.? He was diagnosed with hooks the first week of June (puppy has been on Interceptor since I brought him home in December so figure that one in and my other dogs are fine).? He had horrible diarrhea, but continued to gain weight.? We treated him for hooks and also an infection from the hooks.? He was on slightly cooked turkey burger with rice for two weeks, then I painstakingly added 1/4 C of kibble per feeding with his burger/rice mixture until he was back onto a full kibble diet and was happy, adjusted and normal stools.? After over a week of good stools, I started to add in his omega supplement for two days (very small amounts) and then by Sunday evening I started him back on raw - very small chicken wing and very small liver.? I didn't give him any raw yesterday as I was going to just give him small amounts of raw every other day for a month and then go up from there.? By 4 AM this morning, he was throwing up, dry heaving, liquid stools, panting.? He is at the vets now and is not bloating, but getting IV for fluids and something for his stomach while they pull bloodwork to check for EPI.? Just wondering if anyone on this lists knows much about this deficiency - especially at what age do you see it?? I know GSD's are the worst for it.

Thanks,

Maria Hillegas
SARDOM

PS He has been drinking excessive amounts of water since he was originally sick and blew his coat and still sheds like crazy.
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7b. Re: EPI
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:44 am ((PDT))

Hi there,

I am not really familiar with EPI, but I have read before that it can be treated by feeding raw pig pancreas. You'll have to do some more searches regarding that yourself, or perhaps some of the other members on this list are familiar with it.

Shannon

K9FindM@aol.com wrote:
OK - anyone on this list familiar with EPI??

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8a. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
Posted by: "kimberlykay1119" kimberlykay119@sbcglobal.net kimberlykay1119
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

You sure can! Just don't feed it all at once. With a pup you may
give him diarrhea! A little at a time of the organs is a good thing.
Kimberly
>
> On the whole fryer chickens. . I can feed him what is in the "gut"
bag too,
> right? LOL! Tamatha
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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8b. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
Posted by: "kimberlykay1119" kimberlykay119@sbcglobal.net kimberlykay1119
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:34 am ((PDT))

Hi Tamath! I wouldn't worry about what day he was conceived, go based
on birthday. If you feel more comfortable waiting till 9 weeks, do
it, it won't hurt your pup. Since the mods here are fantastic, I am
sure they are going to recommend we move this part of the discussion
to raw chat. Check out the German_Shepherd_dogs@yahoo.com group.
They are fantastic!
Kimberly

> hi, Kimberly! Thank you for the advice! :) Another
question. .since it is
> "suspected" that our guy was conceived in the 5th day of the mating,
should I
> wait an extra week (making it almost 9 weeks) to pick him up since
he would
> technically be 5 days behind the others in development?

Messages in this topic (12)
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9. question about chicken wings
Posted by: "emdeefa" mdevlin@aisle10.net emdeefa
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:13 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!

Hi, I started feeding my 8 month old beagle/jack russel mix raw food 2
weeks ago. He has been doing very well with chicken quarters/cut up
whole chicken. My question though is that last week I got a bunch of
chicken wings that I had intended to feed to him, but I have seen a
couple posts since I purchased them that said chicken wings are not
the best thing to feed since they are so small, and might be swallowed
whole and cause a choking/obstruction hazard.

Should I not give him these at all?

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "Laura Wilburn" lamb60@yahoo.com lamb60
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:14 am ((PDT))

I believe the raw diet is indeed higher in protein than kibble unless you are feeding EVO which is 45% protein.
Laura

Laura Wilburn

www.pathfindergoldens.com

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10b. ADMIN/Re: labwork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

This thread has gone from illustrative and educational to simply
tedious. Enough is enough. Take the discussion elsewhere.
Thank you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (21)
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11a. Re: Needing help on my second night of raw
Posted by: "Eve" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:16 am ((PDT))

Lora,

Thanks so much! This definitely makes me feel more confident in what I'm doing.

I am just feeding him once in the evening---this is ok?

Eve
NY

Bearhair <bearhair@spamcop.net> wrote:
Eve wrote:

>So following last night's event where I started my 17
>lb pekingese on a slab of steak (realizing it was too
>small as he scarfed it down whole),

Then that would be a medallion, not a slab.

Okay, you've missed some basics, so we'll have to catch you up fast. here's
the recommended high points:

1. Amount: 2 - 4 % of your dog's ideal adult body weight, depending on his
activity and metabolism, per day. Watch for body changes (ribs, waist, etc.)
over the next few weeks to determine what the right amount is for him. For
those mathematically challenged, 2% of 17 pounds is about 5.5 ounces and 4%
is 11 ounces.

2. Throw away all kibble and canned dog food.

3. Purchase a whole chicken or leg quarters from the grocery store, ensuring
that they are NOT enhanced with a salt solution or broth (retained water is
okay). Cut up the whole chicken into quarters. (Note: chicken is chosen only
for availability and price - it has no special properties).

4. If the chicken quarter is approximately the appropriate weight for a meal,
hand it to the dog, then step back and occupy yourself with something else
instead of staring at the dog - it will lessen the likelihood that he'll try
to swallow the entire thing in one gulp, thinking that you're about to take
it away.

5. If the chicken quarter is not enough for one meal, feed more. If the
chicken quarter is too much for one meal, either cut it up further, feed it
as is until the dog is full (this works if your dog self-regulates its
intake), or feed it until the dog eats an appropriate portion and then trade
the dog for the remaining meat using his favorite treat. If you can.

6. Continue to feed chicken for a week or so, until you are comfortable with
the concept and your dog is comfortable digesting it (you may see some loose
stool initially, but it should clear up before you proceed to the next step.
You will feed the entire chicken - meat, skin, and bones together. I rip the
excess fat off, when present in chunks, but don't get crazed about it. Take
all of the giblets (the stuff inside of the chicken) and freeze them for
later.

7. Slowly introduce another meat into the dog's meals. Pork is another
available and inexpensive option. Replace a portion of the chicken meat with
an equal amount of pork meat, increasing it each day. Continue to monitor
your comfort and his digestion. You can feed any pork as long as it is raw
and not enhanced with a salt solution or broth and not smoked or cured. Pork
chops (omit the bone), hunks of pork cut from a pork roast or pork shoulder,
etc.

8. When your dog is ready to eat full meals of pork, start adding pork bones.
Any bone that has been sawn is potentially sharp, so we prefer to feed the
bones within pork shoulders and other bone-in roasts, or pork ribs. Pork feet
are also tasty but ride the fence between a meal and a treat because there's
not much meat to them.

9. Now pull out those frozen giblets from the first week or two. Common items
include chicken necks, hearts, gizzard and liver. Out of these, liver is the
only item that is considered an "organ" for the purposes of raw feeding. The
rest is considered meat. In general, heart from any animal is quite rich, so
it's best to feed as a portion of a meal until you know how your dog's
digestion will react.

10. Introducing organ to the meal is done as you've already learned - a
little at a time, with monitoring. Some dogs hate the texture of thawed
liver, but will eat it frozen. Over time, your dog should be fed liver as
about 5% of its total intake (per month, per year, per lifetime), with other
organs making up another 5%. Other organs are identified using the "squidgy
rule" - if you touch and it feels "squidgy," it's an organ. They include
(depending on the animal) kidney, spleen, pancreas, reproductive organs,
lung, and brain. Heart, tongue, testicles, tails, feet, and heads are
considered meat.

11. After pork, you're free to pick another meat, just introduce it as you've
learned, a little at a time, with monitoring. Common choices include beef,
bison/buffalo, goat, lamb, mutton, veal, turkey, duck, goose, elk, venison,
fish, and rabbit. There are some additional rules for feeding wild game and
fish - keep reading the messages on the list and you'll pick those up, or ask
when you're ready.

12. Weight-bearing bones of large livestock (beef, bison, buffalo, elk,
venison, and possibly mutton) are stronger than your dog's teeth and will
break them. Depending on your dog, you can either trim the meat off and toss
the bone away, or feed the meat and bone together and remove the bone when
the meat is gone.

Returning to your post:

>he is giving half a chicken a try as we speak.

Okay, you've already fed steak, but stick with chicken now for awhile so it
will be easy to identify a problem if he has any digestive issues.

>I'm not sure what the deal is but he has been licking
>the chicken for the past 25 minutes, not really
>chewing into it. The only he thing he is chewing on is
>the skin, but not ingesting it. I feel like he has no
>idea what to do with it. He definitely is more
>interested in the skin than the meat.
>He he supposed to eat the skin?

He will, as soon as he learns how to do it. Give him time, and perhaps a
smaller portion of chicken. I recommend a thigh - good amount of meat and an
approachable bone.

>How do I get him to actually chew and ingest the meat?

Leave him alone, he'll figure it out.

>How long should every night's feeding take? I'm used
>to him eating within 5 minutes so I'm not sure what to
>do. Should I take the food up within a certain period
>of time?

Only if he's not really interested in it. Right now, he has to learn how to
eat real food.

>Also, should I keep the wings in tact? I thought I
>read that they could be a choking hazard.

Fed alone, to some dogs, they can be. Keep them attached and your dog will
chew off portions that he can swallow.

>And I think I'm looking at the chicken's ribs--they
>are pretty small and skinny--is this a choking hazard?

Only if you feed them to him one at a time.

>Is he supposed to chew and ingest the chicken ribs?

He will. Think about your dog as a mini-wolf. He would catch and kill the
chicken, then eat it. Period.

>I pulled the insides out of the chicken--You'll have
>to forgive me--I don't know what parts each is. They
>all kind of look the same. It just looks like kidney
>shaped pieces. There are a ton of them. How do I feed
>him the insides?

See Step 9 above.

>I've noticed after he chews on a beef bone (and he is
>now doing it again with the chicken)--he goes into his
>crate and lies on his side and scratches at it, growls
>and mushes his face on it. Is this normal behavior?
>What is it?

He's happy, is enjoying his food, and is delighted that he has such a smart
mom that's also a great hunter for the pack!

>One more thing...What is the best raw meaty bone for a
>pekingese? A few options would be great.

See Step 12. Over time, feed as many parts of as many animals as you can
comfortably and affordably obtain. There is no "best" part.

Lora
Evanston, IL

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12a. Re: Mix Meat
Posted by: "Cathy Lynn" cccforlll@yahoo.com cccforlll
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:42 am ((PDT))

Hi JoAnn, What is the source for free venison? Thanks, Kit

JoAnn Gongos <jogongos@adelphia.net> wrote: I have a good source for free venison , it comes either ground, steaks or roasts with no bones. When I feed the venison I combine it with turkey or chicken backs.

joAnn

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13a. Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
Posted by: "unjustifiedwings" unjustifiedwings@aol.com unjustifiedwings
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:42 am ((PDT))

I just started the raw diet for my 90lb American Bulldog/Pitbull mix
and my 11 week old Boxer because they were having runny poos on every
commercial kibble we've tried (Royal Canin, Natural Balance, Natural
Choice, etc etc). My bulldog/pitbull was going to the bathroom (poo)
atleast 5 times a day, if not more.. So I knew he wasn't getting
anything from his kibble and my little boxer girl just couldn't have
a firm a stool. Since switching on Sunday, they've poo'd very little.
Yesterday, they both poo'd only twice. I was scared it was blockage
or something because I'm so use to them going to the bathroom so
much! My bulldog/pitbull's poo is brownish and very very small (his
was like horse poo!) but my boxer's poo is VERY dark.. Is that
anything to worry about?

I currently have him on 2 chicken thighs (or 3 legs) and 6oz. of
organs (not liver yet).. For her, she's eating 2 chicken legs or 1
1/2 thighs and about 4 oz. of organ meat.. I was giving her about the
same amount of food as him because she's currently 15lbs and from the
research I've done, she's suppose to be getting 10% because she's a
puppy.

In the next week or so, I'll gradually mix some liver in and use
whole chickens instead of the bagged legs and thighs..

Does this sounds okay or should I change something?

- Kenya

Messages in this topic (3)
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13b. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:23 am ((PDT))

"unjustifiedwings" <unjustifiedwings@...> wrote:
Since switching on Sunday, they've poo'd very little.
> Yesterday, they both poo'd only twice. I was scared it was blockage
> or something because I'm so use to them going to the bathroom so
> much! My bulldog/pitbull's poo is brownish and very very small (his
> was like horse poo!) but my boxer's poo is VERY dark.. Is that
> anything to worry about?
*****
Chicken thighs/legs deliver a lot of bone which will both reduce
stool volume and frequency. Heck, simply getting rid of all that
awful grain based kibble will reduce stool volume! For the big guy
you might move on to larger whacks of chicken, at least think leg
quarters.

What organ are you feeding six ounces of? Heart? Heart is good
(though considered for our rawfeeding purposes a muscle meat not an
organ). That's probably a reasonable amount to add to make those
chicken parts a meatier meal; you might want not do this every meal
until you see how his stools continue.

If the six ounces of organ meat is kidney or spleen or other squishy
stuff, you shouldn't feed it regularly; your boy only needs 5% of his
diet (long term) as non-liver organs. Until you know more about
his "new" stool production, don't press your luck with too much
squishy food.

For her, she's eating 2 chicken legs or 1
> 1/2 thighs and about 4 oz. of organ meat.. I was giving her about
the
> same amount of food as him because she's currently 15lbs and from
the
> research I've done, she's suppose to be getting 10% because she's a
> puppy.
*****
If that's working, fine. But you won't be doing it much longer--
typically four months or so is when you shift focus to adult weight.
I have never fed a pup by its current weight, primarily because I
don't weigh my pups. I don't weigh my adults either, except when we
have to go to the vet which is like never if I can help it. What I
do is pick a weight that seems reasonable as an ideal adult weight,
and I feed based on that. Clearly the issue is getting a healthy
amount of feed into the girl. Well both of them of course.

Again, with the organ meat, if it's heart that's a good choice but
despite its many virtues it can cause digestive discomfort.

Black stool in the absence of serious digestive problems is typically
produced by heart, liver, kidney and other bloody, dense meats.

'Twere me, I'd either add tiny snippets of liver to their meals or
not add any at all yet. I think this head of steam you are building
up may run you right into some digestive messes--that can be avoided
by taking 'er easy. Since both dogs have histories of digestion
issues, slow and steady will probably suit them better than full
speed ahead.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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13c. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

> Since switching on Sunday, they've poo'd very little.

Hi. After switching to rawfeeding,you will notice smaller sized poop and less frequent poop.That is normal.My dog poop sometimes only 1 time in a day and,I don't worry about it.

>my boxer's poo is VERY dark.. Is that anything to worry about?

I think it is nothing to worry about.

Usually,organ meat make poop dark color. what going into dog system reflect the color of what is coming out as poop.

If you see quite hard poop with whitish poop,then,you maybe feeding too much bone and add more meat to it.If the poop got too loose,then add more bone to the diet.

Look at your dog and introduce new thing one at a time so that you can identify what is causing problems.

Hope it helps.

yassy

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14a. Re: Fermented stomach grass
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

Well if you think about it like this- most dogs who
eat grass generally throw up...so I imagine that
fermented grass would do the exact same thing.

Nathalie

> >
> > I ordered some fermented beef stomach grass from
> prey4pets and
> > I have
> > tried it on the dogs.
>

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Messages in this topic (6)
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15. What's wrong with cooked?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

This is from another list, and I can't get to the "bibliography"
because it's on some site somewhere to which I did not get the link.
But even so, it agrees with how I think, and is well-supported, to my
knowledge, so I thought I would share it:

What Happens to Food When It Is Cooked
(The sources for the facts under this heading and the next can be
found in the works cited in the Bibliography.

(a) Some of the nutrients are destroyed (vitamins, minerals, amino
acids, etc.). Most conventional nutritionists agree.

(b) All the enzymes are destroyed. Enzymes are essential for proper
digestion. Some enzymes speed up certain digestive processes a
millionfold.

(c) The ratios of nutrients are changed. In the case of meat,
relatively more vitamin B6 than methionine is destroyed, leading to
atherogenic free-radical-initiating homocysteine accumulation. In
other words, cooked meat causes heart problems. Cooked meat is also a
carcinogen.

(d) Toxic substances are formed. More than 90 toxic substances have
been identified that are formed when a potato is cooked. Some of
these toxins are mutagenic and/or carcinogenic.

(e) Waste material is created.

(f) Cooking food has similar effects to the aging processes in the
body. Cooking ages food very rapidly and very extensively.

(g) The water content of the food changes.

(h) The food's life-energy and life-information are destroyed.

What Happens to a Human Body That Eats Cooked Food
(a) There is a rush of white blood cells towards the digestive tract,
leaving the rest of the body less protected by the immune system.
From the point of view of the immune system the body is being invaded
by toxins when cooked food is eaten.

(b) A general augmentation of white corpuscles in the blood and a
change in the relative proportions of different blood cells. This
phenomenon is called digestive leukocytosis.

(c) Because all the enzymes are destroyed by cooking, the food cannot
be properly digested. In attempting to manufacture the requisite
enzymes, an unnecessary burden is placed on the body. It cannot
manufacture all the necessary enzymes. The result is indigestion and
sometimes ulcers. In general, raw food is so much more easily
digested that it passes through the system in a half to a third of
the time it takes for cooked food.

(d) The intestinal flora becomes putrefied (particularly from cooked
meat), resulting in colonic dysfunction, allowing the absorption of
toxins from the bowel. This phenomenon is variously called
dysbacteria, dysbiosis, or intestinal toxemia (toxicosis).

(e) A build-up of toxins and waste material in many parts of the
body, including within individual cells. Some of these toxins and
wastes are called lipofuscin, which accumulates in the skin and
nervous system, including the brain. It can be observed as "liver
spots" or "age spots." It is an important aging process: general
toxemia (toxicosis).

(f) Malnutrition at a cellular level. Because such a high proportion
of cooked food consists of wastes and toxins, individual cells don't
receive enough of the nutrients they need.

(g) Tendency towards obesity through overeating. Because the cells
don't get enough nutrients they are so to speak "always hungry" and
hence "demand" more food.

(h) From time to time the body experiences detoxification crises
(also called purification or healing crises). This happens when
toxins are released through the skin or dumped in the bloodstream for
elimination by the liver, kidneys, and other organs. The symptoms may
include headaches, fever, nausea, vomiting, colds, bronchitis,
sinusitis, pneumonia, diarrhea, etc.

(i) The body can become so toxic that all kinds of particles, such as
pollen, can cause detoxification crises, called "allergies." About 80
million Americans suffer from such "allergies."

(j) The immune system, having to deal with the massive daily
invasions of toxins, mutagens, and carcinogens eventually becomes
overwhelmed and weakened. Another important aging process.

(k) Auto-immune diseases (arthritis, rheumatism, bursitis, gout,
multiple sclerosis, etc.). Parts of the body become so clogged with
toxins and wastes that the immune system starts regarding them as
foreign invaders that must be destroyed - the body starts destroying
itself. Another important aging process.

(l) Some of the waste material builds up in the arteries and clogs
them leading to high blood pressure, atherosclerosis,
arteriosclerosis, strokes, etc. - killing nearly half of Americans.

(m) The toxins, mutagens, and carcinogens that build up within cells,
eventually cause some cells to become cancerous - killing nearly a
third of Americans.

(n) In general, many of the aging processes are accelerated by cooked
food. (People who switch to raw food often become visibly and
physiologically younger.

ginny adds: Surely this is all applicable to dogs as well. If you
should want to reflect on your own diet, it might be interesting,
though. It's funny that we readily - most of us, anyway - can see
that dogs are meant to eat raw, but it's more difficult to make this
leap for our own species because of social conditioning.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (1)
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16a. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:30 am ((PDT))

hi chris,

yes i do use bravo. i know what youre saying :) i don't use the ones that are mixed in with other stuff like veggies and stuff. he only gets meat or meat with bone/organ.

i'm still very hesitant to give him the meat on the bone thing from reading several posts of how their dog swallowed this or swallowed that... especially since snowy still has food aggression and if he were to chew off a nice piece of bone he would not give it back. i'm also a huge worry wart.

i have been wanting to give him a meat bone to at least try, maybe i could use one of those long picker upper things that people use to pick up poop. i shall give it a try :) thanks chris!

best
shefy and snowy

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"shefy7" wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone!
>
> Snowy is doing wonderful, I've got a hold of his hotspots and am
> feeding a variety of meats with rotation. In the morning I give him
> meat with bone and in the evening just meat. He gets buffalo,
> chicken, turkey, elk, ostrich, beef, venison, lamb breast,
> tilapia... I usually get bravo meats, but sometimes I get them at
> the store as well...
*****
Ahem.
It has been brought to my attention that perhaps these meats you are
feeding are not whole, but rather are grinds and blends prefabricated
by Bravo.

Yes? No?

I know that Bravo sells whole meals, and that's how I interpreted
your menu. I would be heartbroken to learn that you have come THIIIS
close to feeding a fine raw diet only to squander your doggiedollars
on prechewed food.

Could you clear this up for me please?
Thanks.
Chris O

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16b. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

oh i do give him organs and livers as well. some of the animals from the bravo food have their organs or hearts mixed in. i think it's the beef heart... i don't know, i'm vegetarian hehe

i think i'll keep everything as is since he seems to be happy. i'll post a photo later for everyone to see :) thanks all!

shefy and snowy

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"shefy7" wrote:

> Snowy is doing wonderful,
*****
Yes, it certainly sounds like it!

I've got a hold of his hotspots
*****
And if this isn't proof, I don't know what.

In the morning I give him
> meat with bone and in the evening just meat. He gets buffalo,
> chicken, turkey, elk, ostrich, beef, venison, lamb breast,
> tilapia...
*****
Good variety, but it appears you are missing organs. At the very
least feed liver (any kind); 3%-5% of his diet should be liver. You
can feed it often in bits, or occasionally in larger amounts,
depending on his tolerances. But you need to feed it. Also
consider adding heart as a muscle meat and kidney as additional
organ meat.

> He poops pretty regular, usually twice a day, sometimes once.
*****
As long as you feed regular, he's likely to poop regular. It's not
crucial that you feed regular, and likewise it's not crucial that
his poops are regular. This regularity is more for human comfort
than dog. It's not wrong though.

I give him snacks
> throughout the day as well, like frozen chicken paste w/freeze
dried
> lamb or fish or something...
*****
I suggest you ask him to work for these snacks, and that you make
sure they are not adding unwanted weight. He sounds lean and fit
now, keep him that way!

> I want to make sure I'm feeding him correctly since he's competely
> raw.
*****
You are more apt to feed him well on raw even if you aren't
feeding "correctly"! And it's dang near impossible to feed him well
if you are not feeding raw, so you can hardly lose!

He gets ~8oz/day. With 4 in the morning and 4 in the evening.
*****
I think as you gain experience and time on the job, you'll find you
can be more casual with his mealtimse but for now getting everything
stable and keeping it that way is job enough.

I
> think I remember reading that only 10% should be bone. Can someone
> tell me if I'm feeding him right or not?
*****
You don't need to chain yourself to 10% edible bone, but it's an
easy reminder that you do not have to feed lots of bone. And of
course not every day must be precisely right. 10% is the long view,
over time, more or less, sooner or later. Unless the meaty bones
you feed as one meal are in fact mostly bone day after week after
month, you're probably doing fine and dandy with bone.
Chris O

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