[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11786

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. crystals
From: betty hinson
1b. Re: crystals
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Squid?
From: woofwoofgrrl
2b. Re: Squid?
From: Yasuko herron

3. 3rd week of raw..
From: Kathleen

4a. Re: Cushings Disease
From: betty hinson

5a. Re: chicken feet gone wrong
From: Andrea
5b. Re: chicken feet gone wrong
From: Bearhair

6. Raw suppliers needed in the Norfolk/Suffolk Area
From: Gavin Gunn

7a. EPI
From: K9FindM@aol.com
7b. Re: EPI
From: Shannon Parker

8a. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
From: kimberlykay1119
8b. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
From: kimberlykay1119

9. question about chicken wings
From: emdeefa

10a. Re: labwork
From: Laura Wilburn
10b. ADMIN/Re: labwork
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Needing help on my second night of raw
From: Eve

12a. Re: Mix Meat
From: Cathy Lynn

13a. Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
From: unjustifiedwings
13b. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
From: costrowski75
13c. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
From: Yasuko herron

14a. Re: Fermented stomach grass
From: Nathalie Poulin

15. What's wrong with cooked?
From: ginny wilken

16a. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
From: shefy gupta
16b. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
From: shefy gupta

Messages
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1a. crystals
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:19 am ((PDT))

Would you feed a dog who as crystals in his urine raw food?
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

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Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: crystals
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

"betty hinson" <b_hinson@...> wrote:
>
> Would you feed a dog who as crystals in his urine raw food?
*****
Yes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:19 am ((PDT))

> question might be not would the wolf eat the squid but rather would
> the wolf roll on the dead squid.

Is that really a question? Any self-respecting wolf would certainly
roll on the dead squid! "Eau D'Squid" is a highly sought after
fragrance that is available only to those wolves who can afford a
vacation on the beach!

Christine

Messages in this topic (18)
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2b. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

Hi,Lora.again,your link here was interesting to read.Thanks.

I have experienced my dog going to potty and pee zillions of times after feeding herring in salt water(I think it was way too salty I guess),if the ink was salty taste due canned,then,I may wash it off very well and feed the canned squid in ink,I guess.If the squid was from fresh fish counter,then,I could try feeding,probably no salt in ink.

I usually taste canned fish to taste saltiness and I can taste ink too next time.I have never tasted it before so interesting for me too.

This morning,I fed scallop to my dog and she loved it. I bought scallop because it was on sale and she got 1/4lb and we human gets 3/4lb:-P

I like feeding many different interesting things to my dog:-P

Since she is not vomiting and she is not ringing the gottago bell yet,so,I think the scallop staying in her tummy and no prob at all.

thanks,again

yassy

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Messages in this topic (18)
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3. 3rd week of raw..
Posted by: "Kathleen" kbabcock1@yahoo.com kbabcock1
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:26 am ((PDT))

After many horrible starts, panicked humans and possibly dog, she is finally in heaven. Evidently, she will not eat anything poultry or fish, except for tuna out of a can. I wont feed her that again. She is happy with her pork, beef, lamb and will be trying other items. I found a NYrawfeeding group that comes together to order large amount of items for savings. If you are in NY city or surrounding area, it might help your rawfeeding days. NYRawfeeders is the name of the group. My dogs coat is shiny, the poop now longer has to be held at an arms length, and she actually loves her food, I never knew-too bad all those years I have had animals, I never had the delight of watching a dog really eat they way they are supposed to, absolute nirvana....
Kathleen

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4a. Re: Cushings Disease
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:28 am ((PDT))

what do you mean by specie approipate diet in your standard??
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

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Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: chicken feet gone wrong
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:48 am ((PDT))

You might have to check with your dogs on this one. Pugs are pretty
sturdy little things, so they might not have a problem with frozen
foods. I've heard of Chihuahuas and the more dainty of small dogs
having issues with frozen foods, but Suz has French Bulldogs and I'm
pretty sure they do ok with frozen.

A couple of frozen chicken feet would probably be a good place to start
with them. If they don't show any signs of being cold after eating
them you might try feeding them some frozen meals to see how they do.
I know some people who have quite small dogs that don't have an issue
with frozen foods, just one more of those "know thy dog" things.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> This is a great idea for me, Andrea, thanks. I have inhaling pugs.
> But I read on the forum that I shouldn't give frozen meat, etc., to a
> small dog. I've misunderstoo then?

Messages in this topic (11)
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5b. Re: chicken feet gone wrong
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))

Silvina wrote:

Andrea wrote:

>> maybe you could get two or three wet and freeze them into a clump?
>Of course, if you can't
>> use them, you can always send them my way (=

>This is a great idea for me, Andrea, thanks. I have inhaling pugs. But
>I read on the forum that I shouldn't give frozen meat, etc., to a small
>dog. I've misunderstoo then?

It has been noted that a large quantity of frozen meat can lower the body
temperature of a very small dog.

A couple of pig's feet in a sturdy pug will be no problem.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (11)
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6. Raw suppliers needed in the Norfolk/Suffolk Area
Posted by: "Gavin Gunn" meganhayleyfinn@yahoo.co.uk meganhayleyfinn
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

Dear All

Im having a bit of difficulty finding suppliers locally for my raw fed
golden retriever. I have found a poultry supplier, but have not yet
found a good source for other raw meaty bones and offal. We dont have
a massive fridge so are unable to by in bulk from a supplier further
away, so must purchase food every 1-2 weeks at the latest. Also dont
want to buy food from expensive sources.Does anyone out there know
where I can get all the food my dog needs from reputable local
suppliers within the Norfolk/Suffolk regions. If it helps I live in
Norwich.

ps. Ideally I am wanting to feed my dog the prey model

Thanks in advance

Gavin Gunn

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7a. EPI
Posted by: "K9FindM@aol.com" K9FindM@aol.com bctwister03
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

OK - anyone on this list familiar with EPI?? I have a 10 month old GSD puppy at the vets now that was very sick overnight and this morning.? He was diagnosed with hooks the first week of June (puppy has been on Interceptor since I brought him home in December so figure that one in and my other dogs are fine).? He had horrible diarrhea, but continued to gain weight.? We treated him for hooks and also an infection from the hooks.? He was on slightly cooked turkey burger with rice for two weeks, then I painstakingly added 1/4 C of kibble per feeding with his burger/rice mixture until he was back onto a full kibble diet and was happy, adjusted and normal stools.? After over a week of good stools, I started to add in his omega supplement for two days (very small amounts) and then by Sunday evening I started him back on raw - very small chicken wing and very small liver.? I didn't give him any raw yesterday as I was going to just give him small amounts of raw every other day for a month and then go up from there.? By 4 AM this morning, he was throwing up, dry heaving, liquid stools, panting.? He is at the vets now and is not bloating, but getting IV for fluids and something for his stomach while they pull bloodwork to check for EPI.? Just wondering if anyone on this lists knows much about this deficiency - especially at what age do you see it?? I know GSD's are the worst for it.

Thanks,

Maria Hillegas
SARDOM

PS He has been drinking excessive amounts of water since he was originally sick and blew his coat and still sheds like crazy.
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7b. Re: EPI
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:44 am ((PDT))

Hi there,

I am not really familiar with EPI, but I have read before that it can be treated by feeding raw pig pancreas. You'll have to do some more searches regarding that yourself, or perhaps some of the other members on this list are familiar with it.

Shannon

K9FindM@aol.com wrote:
OK - anyone on this list familiar with EPI??

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Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
Posted by: "kimberlykay1119" kimberlykay119@sbcglobal.net kimberlykay1119
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

You sure can! Just don't feed it all at once. With a pup you may
give him diarrhea! A little at a time of the organs is a good thing.
Kimberly
>
> On the whole fryer chickens. . I can feed him what is in the "gut"
bag too,
> right? LOL! Tamatha
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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8b. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
Posted by: "kimberlykay1119" kimberlykay119@sbcglobal.net kimberlykay1119
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:34 am ((PDT))

Hi Tamath! I wouldn't worry about what day he was conceived, go based
on birthday. If you feel more comfortable waiting till 9 weeks, do
it, it won't hurt your pup. Since the mods here are fantastic, I am
sure they are going to recommend we move this part of the discussion
to raw chat. Check out the German_Shepherd_dogs@yahoo.com group.
They are fantastic!
Kimberly

> hi, Kimberly! Thank you for the advice! :) Another
question. .since it is
> "suspected" that our guy was conceived in the 5th day of the mating,
should I
> wait an extra week (making it almost 9 weeks) to pick him up since
he would
> technically be 5 days behind the others in development?

Messages in this topic (12)
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9. question about chicken wings
Posted by: "emdeefa" mdevlin@aisle10.net emdeefa
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:13 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!

Hi, I started feeding my 8 month old beagle/jack russel mix raw food 2
weeks ago. He has been doing very well with chicken quarters/cut up
whole chicken. My question though is that last week I got a bunch of
chicken wings that I had intended to feed to him, but I have seen a
couple posts since I purchased them that said chicken wings are not
the best thing to feed since they are so small, and might be swallowed
whole and cause a choking/obstruction hazard.

Should I not give him these at all?

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "Laura Wilburn" lamb60@yahoo.com lamb60
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:14 am ((PDT))

I believe the raw diet is indeed higher in protein than kibble unless you are feeding EVO which is 45% protein.
Laura

Laura Wilburn

www.pathfindergoldens.com

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10b. ADMIN/Re: labwork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

This thread has gone from illustrative and educational to simply
tedious. Enough is enough. Take the discussion elsewhere.
Thank you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (21)
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11a. Re: Needing help on my second night of raw
Posted by: "Eve" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:16 am ((PDT))

Lora,

Thanks so much! This definitely makes me feel more confident in what I'm doing.

I am just feeding him once in the evening---this is ok?

Eve
NY

Bearhair <bearhair@spamcop.net> wrote:
Eve wrote:

>So following last night's event where I started my 17
>lb pekingese on a slab of steak (realizing it was too
>small as he scarfed it down whole),

Then that would be a medallion, not a slab.

Okay, you've missed some basics, so we'll have to catch you up fast. here's
the recommended high points:

1. Amount: 2 - 4 % of your dog's ideal adult body weight, depending on his
activity and metabolism, per day. Watch for body changes (ribs, waist, etc.)
over the next few weeks to determine what the right amount is for him. For
those mathematically challenged, 2% of 17 pounds is about 5.5 ounces and 4%
is 11 ounces.

2. Throw away all kibble and canned dog food.

3. Purchase a whole chicken or leg quarters from the grocery store, ensuring
that they are NOT enhanced with a salt solution or broth (retained water is
okay). Cut up the whole chicken into quarters. (Note: chicken is chosen only
for availability and price - it has no special properties).

4. If the chicken quarter is approximately the appropriate weight for a meal,
hand it to the dog, then step back and occupy yourself with something else
instead of staring at the dog - it will lessen the likelihood that he'll try
to swallow the entire thing in one gulp, thinking that you're about to take
it away.

5. If the chicken quarter is not enough for one meal, feed more. If the
chicken quarter is too much for one meal, either cut it up further, feed it
as is until the dog is full (this works if your dog self-regulates its
intake), or feed it until the dog eats an appropriate portion and then trade
the dog for the remaining meat using his favorite treat. If you can.

6. Continue to feed chicken for a week or so, until you are comfortable with
the concept and your dog is comfortable digesting it (you may see some loose
stool initially, but it should clear up before you proceed to the next step.
You will feed the entire chicken - meat, skin, and bones together. I rip the
excess fat off, when present in chunks, but don't get crazed about it. Take
all of the giblets (the stuff inside of the chicken) and freeze them for
later.

7. Slowly introduce another meat into the dog's meals. Pork is another
available and inexpensive option. Replace a portion of the chicken meat with
an equal amount of pork meat, increasing it each day. Continue to monitor
your comfort and his digestion. You can feed any pork as long as it is raw
and not enhanced with a salt solution or broth and not smoked or cured. Pork
chops (omit the bone), hunks of pork cut from a pork roast or pork shoulder,
etc.

8. When your dog is ready to eat full meals of pork, start adding pork bones.
Any bone that has been sawn is potentially sharp, so we prefer to feed the
bones within pork shoulders and other bone-in roasts, or pork ribs. Pork feet
are also tasty but ride the fence between a meal and a treat because there's
not much meat to them.

9. Now pull out those frozen giblets from the first week or two. Common items
include chicken necks, hearts, gizzard and liver. Out of these, liver is the
only item that is considered an "organ" for the purposes of raw feeding. The
rest is considered meat. In general, heart from any animal is quite rich, so
it's best to feed as a portion of a meal until you know how your dog's
digestion will react.

10. Introducing organ to the meal is done as you've already learned - a
little at a time, with monitoring. Some dogs hate the texture of thawed
liver, but will eat it frozen. Over time, your dog should be fed liver as
about 5% of its total intake (per month, per year, per lifetime), with other
organs making up another 5%. Other organs are identified using the "squidgy
rule" - if you touch and it feels "squidgy," it's an organ. They include
(depending on the animal) kidney, spleen, pancreas, reproductive organs,
lung, and brain. Heart, tongue, testicles, tails, feet, and heads are
considered meat.

11. After pork, you're free to pick another meat, just introduce it as you've
learned, a little at a time, with monitoring. Common choices include beef,
bison/buffalo, goat, lamb, mutton, veal, turkey, duck, goose, elk, venison,
fish, and rabbit. There are some additional rules for feeding wild game and
fish - keep reading the messages on the list and you'll pick those up, or ask
when you're ready.

12. Weight-bearing bones of large livestock (beef, bison, buffalo, elk,
venison, and possibly mutton) are stronger than your dog's teeth and will
break them. Depending on your dog, you can either trim the meat off and toss
the bone away, or feed the meat and bone together and remove the bone when
the meat is gone.

Returning to your post:

>he is giving half a chicken a try as we speak.

Okay, you've already fed steak, but stick with chicken now for awhile so it
will be easy to identify a problem if he has any digestive issues.

>I'm not sure what the deal is but he has been licking
>the chicken for the past 25 minutes, not really
>chewing into it. The only he thing he is chewing on is
>the skin, but not ingesting it. I feel like he has no
>idea what to do with it. He definitely is more
>interested in the skin than the meat.
>He he supposed to eat the skin?

He will, as soon as he learns how to do it. Give him time, and perhaps a
smaller portion of chicken. I recommend a thigh - good amount of meat and an
approachable bone.

>How do I get him to actually chew and ingest the meat?

Leave him alone, he'll figure it out.

>How long should every night's feeding take? I'm used
>to him eating within 5 minutes so I'm not sure what to
>do. Should I take the food up within a certain period
>of time?

Only if he's not really interested in it. Right now, he has to learn how to
eat real food.

>Also, should I keep the wings in tact? I thought I
>read that they could be a choking hazard.

Fed alone, to some dogs, they can be. Keep them attached and your dog will
chew off portions that he can swallow.

>And I think I'm looking at the chicken's ribs--they
>are pretty small and skinny--is this a choking hazard?

Only if you feed them to him one at a time.

>Is he supposed to chew and ingest the chicken ribs?

He will. Think about your dog as a mini-wolf. He would catch and kill the
chicken, then eat it. Period.

>I pulled the insides out of the chicken--You'll have
>to forgive me--I don't know what parts each is. They
>all kind of look the same. It just looks like kidney
>shaped pieces. There are a ton of them. How do I feed
>him the insides?

See Step 9 above.

>I've noticed after he chews on a beef bone (and he is
>now doing it again with the chicken)--he goes into his
>crate and lies on his side and scratches at it, growls
>and mushes his face on it. Is this normal behavior?
>What is it?

He's happy, is enjoying his food, and is delighted that he has such a smart
mom that's also a great hunter for the pack!

>One more thing...What is the best raw meaty bone for a
>pekingese? A few options would be great.

See Step 12. Over time, feed as many parts of as many animals as you can
comfortably and affordably obtain. There is no "best" part.

Lora
Evanston, IL

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Messages in this topic (5)
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12a. Re: Mix Meat
Posted by: "Cathy Lynn" cccforlll@yahoo.com cccforlll
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:42 am ((PDT))

Hi JoAnn, What is the source for free venison? Thanks, Kit

JoAnn Gongos <jogongos@adelphia.net> wrote: I have a good source for free venison , it comes either ground, steaks or roasts with no bones. When I feed the venison I combine it with turkey or chicken backs.

joAnn

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13a. Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
Posted by: "unjustifiedwings" unjustifiedwings@aol.com unjustifiedwings
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:42 am ((PDT))

I just started the raw diet for my 90lb American Bulldog/Pitbull mix
and my 11 week old Boxer because they were having runny poos on every
commercial kibble we've tried (Royal Canin, Natural Balance, Natural
Choice, etc etc). My bulldog/pitbull was going to the bathroom (poo)
atleast 5 times a day, if not more.. So I knew he wasn't getting
anything from his kibble and my little boxer girl just couldn't have
a firm a stool. Since switching on Sunday, they've poo'd very little.
Yesterday, they both poo'd only twice. I was scared it was blockage
or something because I'm so use to them going to the bathroom so
much! My bulldog/pitbull's poo is brownish and very very small (his
was like horse poo!) but my boxer's poo is VERY dark.. Is that
anything to worry about?

I currently have him on 2 chicken thighs (or 3 legs) and 6oz. of
organs (not liver yet).. For her, she's eating 2 chicken legs or 1
1/2 thighs and about 4 oz. of organ meat.. I was giving her about the
same amount of food as him because she's currently 15lbs and from the
research I've done, she's suppose to be getting 10% because she's a
puppy.

In the next week or so, I'll gradually mix some liver in and use
whole chickens instead of the bagged legs and thighs..

Does this sounds okay or should I change something?

- Kenya

Messages in this topic (3)
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13b. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:23 am ((PDT))

"unjustifiedwings" <unjustifiedwings@...> wrote:
Since switching on Sunday, they've poo'd very little.
> Yesterday, they both poo'd only twice. I was scared it was blockage
> or something because I'm so use to them going to the bathroom so
> much! My bulldog/pitbull's poo is brownish and very very small (his
> was like horse poo!) but my boxer's poo is VERY dark.. Is that
> anything to worry about?
*****
Chicken thighs/legs deliver a lot of bone which will both reduce
stool volume and frequency. Heck, simply getting rid of all that
awful grain based kibble will reduce stool volume! For the big guy
you might move on to larger whacks of chicken, at least think leg
quarters.

What organ are you feeding six ounces of? Heart? Heart is good
(though considered for our rawfeeding purposes a muscle meat not an
organ). That's probably a reasonable amount to add to make those
chicken parts a meatier meal; you might want not do this every meal
until you see how his stools continue.

If the six ounces of organ meat is kidney or spleen or other squishy
stuff, you shouldn't feed it regularly; your boy only needs 5% of his
diet (long term) as non-liver organs. Until you know more about
his "new" stool production, don't press your luck with too much
squishy food.

For her, she's eating 2 chicken legs or 1
> 1/2 thighs and about 4 oz. of organ meat.. I was giving her about
the
> same amount of food as him because she's currently 15lbs and from
the
> research I've done, she's suppose to be getting 10% because she's a
> puppy.
*****
If that's working, fine. But you won't be doing it much longer--
typically four months or so is when you shift focus to adult weight.
I have never fed a pup by its current weight, primarily because I
don't weigh my pups. I don't weigh my adults either, except when we
have to go to the vet which is like never if I can help it. What I
do is pick a weight that seems reasonable as an ideal adult weight,
and I feed based on that. Clearly the issue is getting a healthy
amount of feed into the girl. Well both of them of course.

Again, with the organ meat, if it's heart that's a good choice but
despite its many virtues it can cause digestive discomfort.

Black stool in the absence of serious digestive problems is typically
produced by heart, liver, kidney and other bloody, dense meats.

'Twere me, I'd either add tiny snippets of liver to their meals or
not add any at all yet. I think this head of steam you are building
up may run you right into some digestive messes--that can be avoided
by taking 'er easy. Since both dogs have histories of digestion
issues, slow and steady will probably suit them better than full
speed ahead.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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13c. Re: Just Started Raw - Advice, Tips, Comments?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

> Since switching on Sunday, they've poo'd very little.

Hi. After switching to rawfeeding,you will notice smaller sized poop and less frequent poop.That is normal.My dog poop sometimes only 1 time in a day and,I don't worry about it.


>my boxer's poo is VERY dark.. Is that anything to worry about?

I think it is nothing to worry about.

Usually,organ meat make poop dark color. what going into dog system reflect the color of what is coming out as poop.

If you see quite hard poop with whitish poop,then,you maybe feeding too much bone and add more meat to it.If the poop got too loose,then add more bone to the diet.

Look at your dog and introduce new thing one at a time so that you can identify what is causing problems.

Hope it helps.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (3)
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14a. Re: Fermented stomach grass
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

Well if you think about it like this- most dogs who
eat grass generally throw up...so I imagine that
fermented grass would do the exact same thing.

Nathalie

> >
> > I ordered some fermented beef stomach grass from
> prey4pets and
> > I have
> > tried it on the dogs.
>

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Messages in this topic (6)
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15. What's wrong with cooked?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

This is from another list, and I can't get to the "bibliography"
because it's on some site somewhere to which I did not get the link.
But even so, it agrees with how I think, and is well-supported, to my
knowledge, so I thought I would share it:

What Happens to Food When It Is Cooked
(The sources for the facts under this heading and the next can be
found in the works cited in the Bibliography.

(a) Some of the nutrients are destroyed (vitamins, minerals, amino
acids, etc.). Most conventional nutritionists agree.

(b) All the enzymes are destroyed. Enzymes are essential for proper
digestion. Some enzymes speed up certain digestive processes a
millionfold.

(c) The ratios of nutrients are changed. In the case of meat,
relatively more vitamin B6 than methionine is destroyed, leading to
atherogenic free-radical-initiating homocysteine accumulation. In
other words, cooked meat causes heart problems. Cooked meat is also a
carcinogen.

(d) Toxic substances are formed. More than 90 toxic substances have
been identified that are formed when a potato is cooked. Some of
these toxins are mutagenic and/or carcinogenic.

(e) Waste material is created.

(f) Cooking food has similar effects to the aging processes in the
body. Cooking ages food very rapidly and very extensively.

(g) The water content of the food changes.

(h) The food's life-energy and life-information are destroyed.

What Happens to a Human Body That Eats Cooked Food
(a) There is a rush of white blood cells towards the digestive tract,
leaving the rest of the body less protected by the immune system.
From the point of view of the immune system the body is being invaded
by toxins when cooked food is eaten.

(b) A general augmentation of white corpuscles in the blood and a
change in the relative proportions of different blood cells. This
phenomenon is called digestive leukocytosis.

(c) Because all the enzymes are destroyed by cooking, the food cannot
be properly digested. In attempting to manufacture the requisite
enzymes, an unnecessary burden is placed on the body. It cannot
manufacture all the necessary enzymes. The result is indigestion and
sometimes ulcers. In general, raw food is so much more easily
digested that it passes through the system in a half to a third of
the time it takes for cooked food.

(d) The intestinal flora becomes putrefied (particularly from cooked
meat), resulting in colonic dysfunction, allowing the absorption of
toxins from the bowel. This phenomenon is variously called
dysbacteria, dysbiosis, or intestinal toxemia (toxicosis).

(e) A build-up of toxins and waste material in many parts of the
body, including within individual cells. Some of these toxins and
wastes are called lipofuscin, which accumulates in the skin and
nervous system, including the brain. It can be observed as "liver
spots" or "age spots." It is an important aging process: general
toxemia (toxicosis).

(f) Malnutrition at a cellular level. Because such a high proportion
of cooked food consists of wastes and toxins, individual cells don't
receive enough of the nutrients they need.

(g) Tendency towards obesity through overeating. Because the cells
don't get enough nutrients they are so to speak "always hungry" and
hence "demand" more food.

(h) From time to time the body experiences detoxification crises
(also called purification or healing crises). This happens when
toxins are released through the skin or dumped in the bloodstream for
elimination by the liver, kidneys, and other organs. The symptoms may
include headaches, fever, nausea, vomiting, colds, bronchitis,
sinusitis, pneumonia, diarrhea, etc.

(i) The body can become so toxic that all kinds of particles, such as
pollen, can cause detoxification crises, called "allergies." About 80
million Americans suffer from such "allergies."

(j) The immune system, having to deal with the massive daily
invasions of toxins, mutagens, and carcinogens eventually becomes
overwhelmed and weakened. Another important aging process.

(k) Auto-immune diseases (arthritis, rheumatism, bursitis, gout,
multiple sclerosis, etc.). Parts of the body become so clogged with
toxins and wastes that the immune system starts regarding them as
foreign invaders that must be destroyed - the body starts destroying
itself. Another important aging process.

(l) Some of the waste material builds up in the arteries and clogs
them leading to high blood pressure, atherosclerosis,
arteriosclerosis, strokes, etc. - killing nearly half of Americans.

(m) The toxins, mutagens, and carcinogens that build up within cells,
eventually cause some cells to become cancerous - killing nearly a
third of Americans.

(n) In general, many of the aging processes are accelerated by cooked
food. (People who switch to raw food often become visibly and
physiologically younger.

ginny adds: Surely this is all applicable to dogs as well. If you
should want to reflect on your own diet, it might be interesting,
though. It's funny that we readily - most of us, anyway - can see
that dogs are meant to eat raw, but it's more difficult to make this
leap for our own species because of social conditioning.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (1)
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16a. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:30 am ((PDT))

hi chris,

yes i do use bravo. i know what youre saying :) i don't use the ones that are mixed in with other stuff like veggies and stuff. he only gets meat or meat with bone/organ.

i'm still very hesitant to give him the meat on the bone thing from reading several posts of how their dog swallowed this or swallowed that... especially since snowy still has food aggression and if he were to chew off a nice piece of bone he would not give it back. i'm also a huge worry wart.

i have been wanting to give him a meat bone to at least try, maybe i could use one of those long picker upper things that people use to pick up poop. i shall give it a try :) thanks chris!

best
shefy and snowy

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"shefy7" wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone!
>
> Snowy is doing wonderful, I've got a hold of his hotspots and am
> feeding a variety of meats with rotation. In the morning I give him
> meat with bone and in the evening just meat. He gets buffalo,
> chicken, turkey, elk, ostrich, beef, venison, lamb breast,
> tilapia... I usually get bravo meats, but sometimes I get them at
> the store as well...
*****
Ahem.
It has been brought to my attention that perhaps these meats you are
feeding are not whole, but rather are grinds and blends prefabricated
by Bravo.

Yes? No?

I know that Bravo sells whole meals, and that's how I interpreted
your menu. I would be heartbroken to learn that you have come THIIIS
close to feeding a fine raw diet only to squander your doggiedollars
on prechewed food.

Could you clear this up for me please?
Thanks.
Chris O

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Messages in this topic (5)
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16b. Re: Feeding raw bravo food, how much to feed exactly?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

oh i do give him organs and livers as well. some of the animals from the bravo food have their organs or hearts mixed in. i think it's the beef heart... i don't know, i'm vegetarian hehe

i think i'll keep everything as is since he seems to be happy. i'll post a photo later for everyone to see :) thanks all!

shefy and snowy

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"shefy7" wrote:

> Snowy is doing wonderful,
*****
Yes, it certainly sounds like it!

I've got a hold of his hotspots
*****
And if this isn't proof, I don't know what.

In the morning I give him
> meat with bone and in the evening just meat. He gets buffalo,
> chicken, turkey, elk, ostrich, beef, venison, lamb breast,
> tilapia...
*****
Good variety, but it appears you are missing organs. At the very
least feed liver (any kind); 3%-5% of his diet should be liver. You
can feed it often in bits, or occasionally in larger amounts,
depending on his tolerances. But you need to feed it. Also
consider adding heart as a muscle meat and kidney as additional
organ meat.

> He poops pretty regular, usually twice a day, sometimes once.
*****
As long as you feed regular, he's likely to poop regular. It's not
crucial that you feed regular, and likewise it's not crucial that
his poops are regular. This regularity is more for human comfort
than dog. It's not wrong though.

I give him snacks
> throughout the day as well, like frozen chicken paste w/freeze
dried
> lamb or fish or something...
*****
I suggest you ask him to work for these snacks, and that you make
sure they are not adding unwanted weight. He sounds lean and fit
now, keep him that way!

> I want to make sure I'm feeding him correctly since he's competely
> raw.
*****
You are more apt to feed him well on raw even if you aren't
feeding "correctly"! And it's dang near impossible to feed him well
if you are not feeding raw, so you can hardly lose!

He gets ~8oz/day. With 4 in the morning and 4 in the evening.
*****
I think as you gain experience and time on the job, you'll find you
can be more casual with his mealtimse but for now getting everything
stable and keeping it that way is job enough.

I
> think I remember reading that only 10% should be bone. Can someone
> tell me if I'm feeding him right or not?
*****
You don't need to chain yourself to 10% edible bone, but it's an
easy reminder that you do not have to feed lots of bone. And of
course not every day must be precisely right. 10% is the long view,
over time, more or less, sooner or later. Unless the meaty bones
you feed as one meal are in fact mostly bone day after week after
month, you're probably doing fine and dandy with bone.
Chris O

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
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All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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