[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11779

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. goose
From: Sue

2.1. Re: What Next?
From: Nathalie Poulin

3a. Re: burying food for later?
From: Mike Frantzen
3b. Re: burying food for later?
From: Bearhair

4a. Re: Beef bones
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: Beef bones
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: Beef bones
From: Bearhair

5a. Re: Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
From: Giselle

6a. wanting to start raw feeding questions????
From: mvd12720
6b. Re: wanting to start raw feeding questions????
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Feeding Squirrel
From: Bearhair
7b. Re: Feeding Squirrel
From: krheintgen

8a. Re: By Products
From: carnesbill
8b. Re: By Products
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: New to group: be gentle
From: Nathalie Poulin
9b. Re: New to group: be gentle
From: carnesbill
9c. Re: New to group: be gentle
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Agression
From: carnesbill
10b. Re: Agression
From: Sandee Lee

11. Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

12a. Re: another Question?
From: costrowski75

13a. Lethargic dogs
From: Karen R
13b. Re: Lethargic dogs
From: Sandee Lee

14a. Re: labwork
From: darkstardog

15a. runny eyes
From: Laura Wilburn

Messages
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1. goose
Posted by: "Sue" fordogs@ptd.net agiledogs2000
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi, been feeding raw for about 2 1/2 months, dogs love it, I love
it. I have 2 dogs, one is one year old the other is 9 yrs old. The
older dog has always had a sensitive stomach so he is eating chicken,
small amounts of liver and occasional raw eggs and salmon oil caps.
The younger dog seems to be able to tolerate pretty much everything
I've fed so far. He's had chicken, pork, beef trim, beef heart,
giblets, lamb,turkey and venison. I saw a frozen free range goose
for 79 cents a lb and thought that sounded pretty good. Then I
thawed it out and there was a lot more bird than I expected. The
bones are hard to get through and there's a lot of fat. I trimmed
some of the fat, it just seemed very rich to me. Do I introduce this
slowly as a new protein or do I just give him the whole bird for 20
minutes or so and take it away. And since this is fowl can I give a
small portion to the older dog. I see that the goose meat is red as
opposed to chicken and turkey, so that's my concern with the older
dog. Just want to be sure I'm doing the right thing for the boys, so
I would appreciate some guidance.
I read this list faithfully and have gleaned some great information.
Thanks to those with the experience for helping us newbies.
Oh one more question, I have a friend that is willing to keep the
deer innards when he goes hunting, what shall I have him save for
me?
Sue, Gnat & Slick

Messages in this topic (1)
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2.1. Re: What Next?
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:44 pm ((PDT))

My shepherd LOVEs goat. Goat liver, goat meat scraps,
goat bones... she just EATS it up!
Try some of that...
or maybe pork.

Nathalie

--- kjdaughtridge <kjdaughtridge@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm just finishing up my second week w/my two
> dogs(65# shepherd mix &
> 93# greyhound.)Week 1: I gave them chicken leg
> quarters twice a day.
> Week 2:I got whole chickens, cut them into quarters
> and fed a quarter,
> 2 times/day to each dog. Plus, since I've been
> getting the whole
> chickens, I split the organs between the two dogs as
> well. I've
> gradually increasing the amount the greyhound gets
> since he's such a
> big boy.
>
> So far things have been going great. They both took
> to it like, well,
> like a dog to a bone! Some soft stools, but overall,
> things are
> firming up in that department. My shepherd mix, who
> was just diagnosed
> with one of his frequent severe ear infections
> before we stared raw,
> amazed our vet with how quickly it cleared up.
>
> So here's my question...I think we're ready to start
> adding new
> proteins. What would you recommend for a second
> meat? Should I add
> that in for one meal and keep one meal chicken each
> day or just switch
> to the new one entirely for a week or two? Also, I'm
> a little confused
> about what pork and cow bones are ok. I know the
> weight bearing bones
> should be avoided, but I'm still confused about
> whether or not ribs
> and necks are ok.
>
> Thanks for everyone's help and support. --Kathleen
>
>

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Messages in this topic (27)
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3a. Re: burying food for later?
Posted by: "Mike Frantzen" hoover1203@yahoo.com hoover1203
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:45 pm ((PDT))

I would not let them burry food

pelirojita <kerrymurray7@gmail.com> wrote: Hi,

My 2 year-old child and I were just out in the backyard playing with
the dogs, when my 2 dogs start digging at something on the side of the
house. I thought they had cornered a lizard and went over to make
sure it wasn't something like a tarantula etc. that might not be smart
to play with.

Anyways, I was quite surprised when my 9 year-old golden pulls out a
buried chicken quarter from the dirt and rocks. I am assuming it is
left over from her dinner last night. Is there any reason not to let
her eat it? (a bit of a moot question as she is chowing down as I
type) It was about 104 degrees here today and we are getting afternoon
monsoon rains - so this thing is not exactly fresh but I have seen on
the list that "fresh" means little to the dogs and their stomachs.

Is this a sign I am feeding her too much? Or just regular dog behavior?

I routinely check the spots in the yard where the dogs eat to make
sure there are no random raw parts for my toddler to get into. Should
I try to limit the burying behavior out of hygiene reasons?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kerry
Tucson, AZ

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: burying food for later?
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

Kerry wrote:

>Anyways, I was quite surprised when my 9 year-old golden pulls out a
>buried chicken quarter from the dirt and rocks. I am assuming it is
>left over from her dinner last night. Is there any reason not to let
>her eat it? (a bit of a moot question as she is chowing down as I
>type) It was about 104 degrees here today and we are getting afternoon
>monsoon rains - so this thing is not exactly fresh but I have seen on
>the list that "fresh" means little to the dogs and their stomachs.
>Is this a sign I am feeding her too much? Or just regular dog behavior?

Regular dog behavior for some dogs! There's someone on this list that has
written about her dog's "filing system." He buries today's meal, then digs up
yesterday's and eats that.

I've read one researcher's opinion that it may be the canine's way of
supplementing with probiotics.

>I routinely check the spots in the yard where the dogs eat to make
>sure there are no random raw parts for my toddler to get into. Should
>I try to limit the burying behavior out of hygiene reasons?

You could train your dog to bury in a particular spot and then ensure that
your toddler does not access that area, but the kid is going to get into
poop, dirt, bugs, bird droppings, etc. anyway.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Beef bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:59 pm ((PDT))

No...marrow bones are the tooth breakers.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "sallynbob221" <sallynbob@catskill.net>
I saw some marrow bones in the meat dept & was wondering if it is OK
to give them to my dogs, more of a treat than a meal?

Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: Beef bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:02 pm ((PDT))

A marrow bone is not a meal. Marrow bones basically have no meat, lots of
fat and are hard enough to break/wear down teeth.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "hoover1203" <hoover1203@yahoo.com>
I gave it to my older dog as a meal but it upset his stomach for the
rest of the day. If you do feed it to your dog do it depending on its
size>

Messages in this topic (11)
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4c. Re: Beef bones
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

Sally wrote:

>I saw some marrow bones in the meat dept & was wondering if it is OK
>to give them to my dogs, more of a treat than a meal?

Nope. Beef marrow bones are weight-bearing bones, which are harder than your
dogs' teeth.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lyse!
*No *Problem.
Well, *if he weren't full of elk, or rabbit, or deer, he might. But
who would cook it for him? Rice bowl plants are mighty thin on the
ground in the forest. ; )
Giselle

Giselle, Laurie, Chris O.... what does NP mean?
Also, if a wolf came across a bowl of brown rice, would he not eat it
readily???
I ask myself these questions while walking my precious terrier. Thank
you all so much for all advice!
Lyse

Hi, Eve!
You're very welcome.(YVW, for Lyse)

Well, dogs, like people, are creatures of habit. If he is used to
gulping his kibble, which doesn't require any effort, he might not
slow down any for any other food, either. UNLESS, it is Bigger than
his head. That's what I'd recommend you feed. Something that he *has
to tear smaller chunks off of.

Reserve a very tasty hunk of food, and when you think he should be
done, put it right in front of his nose, and lure his head away from
his meal while he tries to eat it. Take the leftover meal up with your
other hand while he is still engrossed in getting to the yummy treat.

Get whole chickens and cut them into halves. He will start chewing
where ever he can grab a tooth hold and the portion will be big enough
that he has to work hard at getting chunks off to swallow.

If you're feeding through whole chickens, some meals will have more
bone in it than others. Thats OK. Meatymeat meals, like beef roast or
heart, or beef ribs where he can't eat the bone, will be fine, too.
Breast of lamb has lots of soft bone. Pork shoulders or fresh hams
will be huge! You could cut big whacks of meatymeat off as meals, and
allow him to chew around the edges of the big jointed bone. : )
Giselle

> Giselle,
> Thanks so much for your detailed response. He seems to
> be doing ok.
> Just a couple of follow up questions:
>
> I am going to feed him again tomorrow night. Do you
> think there might be a chance he would still try and
> gulp up the big piece? And how do I take the piece
> away from him when I think he's had enough? I think he
> might get very territorial over it.
>
> So basically you're saying to give him a bigger than
> normal piece of meat and I just should judge visually
> when he's had the appropriate amount for his size and
> take it away?
>
> And at the end of the week I will try a quarter of a
> chicken with the bone as well, but with his track
> record this far, I am very nervous he may try and
> scarf the bone down whole. Anything to avoid this?
>
> And how many times a week should I give him bone? a
> couple?
>
> Thanks
> Eve, NY

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. wanting to start raw feeding questions????
Posted by: "mvd12720" mvd12720@yahoo.com mvd12720
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

i hate to bother anyone but i have a english mastiff puppy 5 months
old this week and he is 71 pounds right now (as of 7/7) and he is
gining about 5 pounds a week average how do i adjust his food and how
much would i be feeding him??
is it ok to start him out on chicken?? i have a local store that i
know the owners and they are willing to get me what ever i need for
this and i just pay them what they pay for it so i'm wondering what is
best for me to get.
well that is the most of my questions for know i know that i will have
more later.

melissa

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: wanting to start raw feeding questions????
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

Melissa,

Figure feeding 2-3% of his ideal adult weight per day. You can easily
adjust that depending on how he does on that amount. Chicken is fine...buy
a couple, cut into meal sized portions and go for it. After he becomes
adjusted to the chicken, you want to add in nice large pork, beef, goat,
lamb portions (roasts, shoulder, slabs of ribs), fish, etc.....anything they
can provide for you, concentrating on meat of course!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mvd12720" <mvd12720@yahoo.com>

i hate to bother anyone but i have a english mastiff puppy 5 months
old this week and he is 71 pounds right now (as of 7/7) and he is
gining about 5 pounds a week average how do i adjust his food and how
much would i be feeding him??
is it ok to start him out on chicken??

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Feeding Squirrel
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

Karen wrote:

>When we told our neighbor who lets our dogs out during the day when
>he's home that we were feeding raw meat to them, he wanted to know if
>we wanted some squirrels. I told him I didn't know if they were on the
>list, but I would check. He's going to help us out with other wild
>game when hunting season opens, so we like him a lot!
>
>What's the word on squirrel? Thanks.

Make sure all of the buckshot is removed.

The safest approach would be to freeze them rock solid for three weeks in
hopes of killing any parasites. I definitely recommend this for any other
wild game.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: Feeding Squirrel
Posted by: "krheintgen" krheintgen@comcast.net krheintgen
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

> > What's the word on squirrel? Thanks.
>
> My dogs AND cats eat squirrels at every opportunity. Of course they
> have to catch them first but they do pretty regularly. ***
> Bill Carnes

Mine too... squirrels and chipmunks...dog caught and eaten. one dog
catches them, the other one eats them....

If dealing with LOTS of squirrels, rather than the smaller amount that
are self-caught, just treat like any other wild game.... freeze first
and check for shot.

Kathy R

Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Re: By Products
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Schlesinger"
<ienjoybeingagirl@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Thanks for the website regarding Tom Lonsdale's book. It is very
> interesting. I have always stayed away from any commercial
> food that
> had that awful word BY-PRODUCTS, but in essence he is telling
> us to
> feed by products in the form of heads, feet, etc of animals.

Feeding by-products is desirable if you feed in porportion to good
meat, bones, and organs. Some organs are by-products. The problem
with by-products in kibble is that they are way out of porportion by
volume. Many kibbles will have a LOT of by-products and no or
almost no real meat.

> He
> also says in the book to feed some fruits and vegetables.

I don't remember Tom saying you "SHOULD" feed fruits and veggies. I
think he says it does no harm if done in moderation. He does say
that a dog fed nothing but tablescraps would be healthier than a dog
fed nothing but kibble.

> I have a
> friend that will not get her dog off a total kibble diet and
> told her
> at least buy a food that has NO by products. Maybe I am
> being overly concerned regarding that issue.

I don't think so. In general, the kibbles that contain by-products
are the same ones that contain no meat and A LOT of grain
particularly corn.

On another topic, I wonder if this new push to use ethanol gasoline
made from corn will push the price of corn so high as to eliminate
it from dog food. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: By Products
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 9:20 pm ((PDT))

"Lee Schlesinger" <ienjoybeingagirl@...> wrote:
>I have always stayed away from any commercial food that
> had that awful word BY-PRODUCTS, but in essence he is telling us to
> feed by products in the form of heads, feet, etc of animals. Is this
> the same thing in commercial foods when they talk of BY PRODUCTS?
*****
For the dogfood industry, "by-products" is short for "by products of
the human food industry". Therefore, body parts like heads, feet,
intestines, feathers, hair, fur, teeth, etc. are perfectly normal parts
of a whole chicken or whole cow or whole deer or whole rabbit, or, or.
They are not necessarily the choicest parts, they may not be the most
digestible (they are, in that regard, the "roughage" that wolves get
naturally by eating whole prey); for the dogfood industry they are
inexpensive sources of "protein" but they are also sources of cheap
protein.

They are the same body parts, yes. In dogfood they often are the ONLY
body part; in whole prey they are part and parcel of the whole.

He
> also says in the book to feed some fruits and vegetables.
*****
I don't recall him recommending that one feed vegetation; I recall him
saying there's nothing particularly wrong with vegetation. Not saying
it is wrong is not the same as saying it's appropriate.

I have a friend that will not get her dog off a total kibble diet and
told her
> at least buy a food that has NO by products. Maybe I am being overly
> concerned regarding that issue.
*****
There are more important things you could be telling her about feedinga
kibble, but the subject is not germane to this list. However, it is
probably less damaging for a dog to eat animal by products than it is
for the dog to eat a product that's almost half carbohydrate. By
comparison, animal by products seem almost natural.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: New to group: be gentle
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

I put it down and she eats her fill, but I'm convinced
i'm lucky to have a dog who knows when she's full.
I've heard some stories about dogs who just won't stop
eating unless there's no more food.
I don't bother doing any cutting of the chicken, I
just let Poe eat. Usually she's done in about 20
minutes or so.
Once she was distracted by the cat and walked away
from her meal, so I bagged it up and when she came
back to it, she was pretty unimpressed that it was
gone, but now the cats don't distract her.
I always keep an eye on her when she's eating though,
that way I don't have worry if she chokes (which she
never has and I'm convinced is much more of a human
worry than the dogs need!)
Start with chicken, but once you add goat/beef/pork
you might find that she's not as into chicken as she
used to be (at least that's what I find with my dog).
Chicken can be pretty bland but we usually start with
it to make sure that there are no upset tummies.

Don't worry about runny pooh either, that is to be
expected when you first make the switch.
No machete's, no cutting, no sick/fat doggies, no
worries!
Oh yah, and I found a butcher near my place that gives
me free scraps of fatty meat! It's all fatty meat trim
with some cartilige and some bones!
If you go to ethnic markets (if they're near you) you
can also find some awesome deals!
Just keep us updated, and don't be afraid to ask us
any questions!

Nathalie

--- arnereil <arnereil@cox.net> wrote:

> Thank you... I'm looking at the ads to see if I can
> find some chicken parts
> on sale, or if not, whole chickens... I'd like to
> try a thigh or two to see
> how it goes, first.
>
> Regarding the whole chicken, you just watch and take
> it away when you feel
> your dog has had enough?
>
> I could do that... wouldn't even need my
> machete../g/
> .
> Arne
> .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nathalie Poulin" <poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca>
> To: <rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Re: New to group: be
> gentle
>
>
> >I have a shepherd husky mix, and she has yet to
> choke
> > on a chicken bone, or anything else for that
> matter.
> > I feed her a whole chicken and she eats her fill,
> then
> > I bag the rest till the next meal. By the third
> meal I
> > need to substitute some meat because there's not
> too
> > much of the chicken left.
> > The general rule of thumb is to feed meals that
> are as
> > big as or bigger than her head. That makes her
> have to
> > work at it.
> > It's the BEST thing you will EVER do for your dog.
> > If it was cooked, she could choke on it, but
> feeding a
> > nice, yummy raw chicken will help her teeth, her
> coat,
> > and her weight!
> >
> > Nathalie
> >
>
>

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Messages in this topic (18)
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9b. Re: New to group: be gentle
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "arnereil" <arnereil@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to try a thigh or two to see
> how it goes, first.

I suggest you try a chicken quarter instead of a thigh. Thighs are
just too small for dogs the size of yours.

> Regarding the whole chicken, you just watch and take it away
> when you feel
> your dog has had enough?

You could do that or you could cut the chicken into sections you
deem to be the appropriate size or you could do like me and many
others and buy chicken parts rather than whole chickens. It is
cheaper for me to buy leg quarters and backs than to buy whole
chickens and I don't have to worry about cutting up or taking away
unfinished portions.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (18)
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9c. Re: New to group: be gentle
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:03 pm ((PDT))

"arnereil" <arnereil@...> wrote:
>> Regarding the whole chicken, you just watch and take it away when
you feel
> your dog has had enough?
*****
When I feed whole chickens, whole chickens get et. Since whole
chickens are sold by the pound and labeled accordingly, I buy birds to
suit the dogs (plus/minus, Dog willing and the creek don't rise). If
you plan to feed once a day, a small chicken or a cornish game hen
(more expensive) may be the way to go. When I feed whole chickens,
that's it for two days.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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10a. Re: Agression
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lee" <ienjoybeingagirl@...>
wrote:
>
> I have to put her on a leash and she tries her best to
> show me she does not want to leave the bones. I then if
> necessary pull
> her up by the collar until she has to drop the bones.

Why are you taking bones away? I suspect you are taking bones away
just to see if you can.

If you feel you must take bones away for whatever reason, I suggest
you find a good positive reinforcement trainer to teach you how to
train your dog.

Personally, in over 4 1/2 years of raw feeding multiple dogs of all
ages both large breed and giant breed, I have never had a reason to
take a bone away from any of them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Agression
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:48 pm ((PDT))

Why are you trying to take her dinner away from her? Give her her food and
let her eat her meal in peace.

This is not aggression and she isn't being bad. A crate (or collar) should
never be used for discipline. But this is far off topic for this list.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Lee" <ienjoybeingagirl@cox.net>

I have trained my dog to always let me take her food away from a pup
on. BUT, giving her raw bones, it is very difficult for her to leave it
when I say OFF. I have to put her on a leash and she tries her best to
show me she does not want to leave the bones. I then if necessary pull
her up by the collar until she has to drop the bones. Sometimes she
will come and then I give her a very good raw piece of meat or another
great treat. I can hold the bone and she is fine pulling the meat off,
but once I give it to her that is another story.

How to I cure her from this agression with raw bones? After she is bad
I have her stay in her crate for a bit, and remove the bone.

Messages in this topic (3)
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11. Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:09 pm ((PDT))

July 8, 2007

Hi!

A few years ago I was having problems with our white GSD's bad breath, body
odor, etc. so I started him on the RAW diet. Unfortunately, our big guy passed
a few months later after starting the diet. I started the RAW diet on our 12
yr old GSD (Stoli), unfortunately too late. He was sick with cancer and we
didn't know it until the day before he passed. He only received this proper
diet for the last few months of his life before he passed with cancer. I am
almost certain his cancer, chronic bad breath and yellow teeth, chronic yeasty
ears, and constant body odor and "corn chip" toes, as I called it, were a result
of his processed dry dog food diet during his entire life. We discovered it
too late. So as the years have gone by we have healed enough to try
again--this time the right way.

Now we are starting on the right path from the beginning with our new puppy;
also a GSD. So, since this is our first puppy on the RAW diet and, of course,
we have only limited exposure of this diet from our prior experience, I am in
need of some help. :)

We will be picking our puppy up in a few days; he will be 6-7 weeks old and
may already be 18 lbs. Someone in another group suggested I should wait to
pick him up at 8 weeks to ensure proper "doggie language" socialization to cut
down on aggression. Any views?

Also, can we start him on this diet immediately at his age? What about his
little teeth? Do the raw meaty bones need to be ground? Should I just do
chicken wings at first and maybe get a mallet? Etc. .

I did raw chicken backs with our other dog but I think that may be too much
for the puppy. Am I wrong? If so, please tell me. Should I start him out on
some ground patties (or what do you recommend) and then as he gets older move
to or supplement with the chicken backs? The chicken backs we feed our Stoli
years ago were full sized with some skin and fat (trimmed as best I could),
but is this okay for a little puppy or do I have to adjust it somewhat? I know
GSDs have sensitive digestive systems and such, so I would need some
probiotics again I am assuming. I also remember buying flax seed oil too but I have
read now salmon oil is better b/c of the Omega 3s?. . . Any "recipes" or
scheduled puppy diets you recommend or even sources for such info is appreciated as
well.

I saw some beef patties and such on
_http://www.barfproducts.com/?gclid=CKr0hv2lmI0CFRGwgAodyC_Iyg_

(http://www.barfproducts.com/?gclid=CKr0hv2lmI0CFRGwgAodyC_Iyg) but I don't think our
budget could handle that all the time, especially as our little guy grows. He is
expected to be over 100 lbs at full maturity.

I am only worried about what to feed him over the next few months and how.
This puppy deserves more than we unknowingly gave our last dog since now we
have discovered the facts.

Again, any suggestions or corrections are welcomed. Thank you for your time
and help in making the most of our little guy's life!

Sincerely,

Tamatha
NC

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

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Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:35 pm ((PDT))

Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
Last night's raw beef, as well as this morning's was mixed with
kibble, I was afraid to make too drastic and sudden a change.
*****
I've no doubt this has been thoroughly addressed, but here I go. The
single best drastic step you can take is to get rid of the kibble.
After that, you can go as slowly as you need to go. But until you
junk the kibble, you can never feed a good raw diet. So just do it!

He did a third doot already today, outside of course, and didn't eat
it because I was there...it was lighter in color than usual, and
loose. His doots are usually darkish and well formed. I was feeding
him Nutro Natural Choice Lamb & Rice, mixed with canned food of the
same brand.
*****
The NNC stool is well formed because of the beet pulp used to produce
uniform stool Don't know why the stool was lighter, except perhaps
the dark color is as artificial as the stool uniformity. In the real
world, beef-based stool and lamb-based stool are pert near the same
color.

Canned dog food is renowned for producing large stool. Between the
undigested kibble and the undigested wet, it's no wonder your bud
cranks out those stupendostools. Once you get him off processed
food, his stools will shrink in size; hopefully they'll also shrink
in appeal.

I want to go raw, and plan to buy some chicken today. I hope the
chicken stays down. Also, he didn't have any bone with his raw beef.
*****
That's okay. Not every meal must contain edible bone. Not even for
newbie dogs.

Tonight, should I just go all raw?
*****
Yes, but of course!

Or keep a bit of kibble in the mix until he switches over.
*****
No not at all! Please donate the remaining kibble to a shelter. Get
it out of your house.

FWIW, I occasionally babysit a dog that eats Natural Choice Chicken
and Rice kibble at home. Here with me, she gets a skin-on, rib-in
chicken breast once a day, no transition, no leaving a leetle bit of
kibble in. She does fine. Stools go from large and dark and small
and tan and somewhat whitish. Just like that.

What can I expect if I go completely raw tonight?
*****
Oh, a happy dog, an anxious human, possibly a potty visit at o'dark-
thirty. Depends on how much you feed of what.

Should I stay with beef since that's what I started with, or can I
mix it already with chicken and a bit of bone?
*****
Since you described his beef/kibble stool as somewhat soft, you might
want to feed a bit of bone; easiest way to do that is with chicken
since beef bone can be as much problem as preventative.

Since you've already fed the boy one way or other, apply my advice
next time if you need it. Let me know how went the meal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (20)
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13a. Lethargic dogs
Posted by: "Karen R" mellowed_2@yahoo.com mellowed_2
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

My daughter switched her dogs (German Shep and corgi) to raw serveral months ago. They are adjusting ok to the raw diet, however, she says that they have lost their energy. Neither dog is as energetic or as playful as they used to be.

She feeds a variety of foods, stayed on chicken for a month to start out, but has added beef and pork. They eat ok, their stools are ok, but they are no longer active dogs. Seems she is balancing out the organs bone and meet part, as far as I can tell. Can anyone thing of something that she may be doing wrong or something that she needs to add?

Thanks

Karen in IL

There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.
-- Goethe

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Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: Lethargic dogs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 9:28 pm ((PDT))

Karen,

She may just be seeing normal dogs! :) We are so used to seeing
abnormally hyped up pets from the high carbohydrate/sugar processed diets
previously fed, we think that behavior is normal...not!!!!!.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Karen R" <mellowed_2@yahoo.com>

> My daughter switched her dogs (German Shep and corgi) to raw serveral
months ago. They are adjusting ok to the raw diet, however, she says that
they have lost their energy. Neither dog is as energetic or as playful as
they used to be.

Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 3:10 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, but you need more information to say that a raw diet is not
> > higher than kibble. You can't compare percent protein
> > directly between raw meat and kibble.
>
> Correct but not for the reasons you think. Actually the raw diet is
> a very high protein diet compared to kibble however it is the proper
> amount of protein for a canine.
>
> To compare protein in a raw diet to protein in a kibble diet you
> must take into consideration moisture. Kibble is less than 10%
moisture and its protein percentage is a dry weight. Raw is ~75 -
> 80% moisture and its protein is measured in a wet weight. If you
> measure a raw diet's protein in dry weight (same as kibble) it would
> be greater than 80% protein.
>

I'm glad you agree that raw diets are generally higher protein than
kibble. I don't know why you assume I don't understand the reasons
though. It seems like common sense that a diet of mostly meat would
be higher in protein than a grain-based kibble and that it would be
species-appropriate.

You're right about the wet weight versus dry weight. That is the main
reason why you can't compare protein percents directly between raw
meat and kibble. Differences in the amount of fat etc. also could be a
factor in making a comparison. The difference in wet and dry weight
was accounted for in the example I gave.

Marty

Messages in this topic (10)
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15a. runny eyes
Posted by: "Laura Wilburn" lamb60@yahoo.com lamb60
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:13 am ((PDT))

You may want to test for round worm as this can cause runny eyes. You mentioned your dog is a puppy. Just a thought.......
Laura

Laura Wilburn

www.pathfindergoldens.com

---------------------------------
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