Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 11777

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: another Question?
From: Lyse Garant
1b. Re: another Question?
From: Giselle
1c. Re: another Question?
From: Lyse Garant
1d. Re: another Question?
From: Giselle

2a. Re: new with many questions
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: new with many questions
From: faithk99
2c. Re: new with many questions
From: carnesbill
2d. Re: new with many questions
From: Bearhair

3a. Re: dental problems
From: Krissy
3b. Re: dental problems
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: Jane Walker
4b. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: Jane Walker
4c. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. how much?
From: DebiC
5b. Re: how much?
From: Laurie Swanson

6a. Re: What Next?
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: labwork
From: carnesbill
7b. Re: labwork
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: WHOOO HOO!!!
From: Bearhair

9a. Re: Moral Support and Feedback - UTI advice
From: Bearhair

10a. Re: Typical Human
From: c_lindaberry

11. Feeding Squirrel
From: akita6691

12. Re: WHOO HOO!!!!!!!!
From: Linda Edgington

13. Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
From: Eve Rosenzweig

14. A very Happy Newbie!
From: delcaste

Messages
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1a. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:08 am ((PDT))

***TRIMMED BY MODERATOR: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES OR RISK DELETION.

Ok THANK YOU!! Yes, you answered a question that I tossed to Chris O., about changing the meat, so I'll stick with the beef for a week and will NOT mix it with kibble. He knows I don't want him to eat the craps, and manages to sneak about half a crap every two days down his throat before I catch him. I think I can break him of the habit if he cuts down on the number of craps a day, because I do clean them up right away, and I am USUALLY right with him when he goes, it's just that he goes so often, I miss maybe one a day actually exiting his little cute brown butt.
I am feeding Guinness only twice a day. I was told by a trainer to cut him down to twice a day. Do I really have to go to 3 times at this point? Thanks again!

Messages in this topic (19)
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1b. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lyse!
NPs, glad to help

ime, pups under 24 weeks need to eat 3 times a day.

If you give him a Big Food portion and he eats until he is full, he
may not want much the next couple meals. But he should be offered food
at the next meal times anyway. If he gets loose poops from Big Eating,
then you'll have to stop him when he's eaten about 1/3 of the day's
portion, then let him eat about a 1/3 the next meal, and so on.

Over 6 months to about 10-12 months he should have 2 meals a day.
After that, one meal a day, or less, should suffice.

With the switch to raw already in progress and after all the kibble
has exited the afore mentioned cute little brown butt, he will be
producing *much less voluminous poops *much less frequently. The poops
may even be less attractive to him.

Have tiny treats in your pocket at all times so that when you take him
out to eliminate, you can call his name and smooch to him as he
finishes pooping. You can then give him a treat and make a big fuss
over him when he comes to you.
TC
Giselle

> Ok THANK YOU!! Yes, you answered a question that I tossed to Chris
O., about changing the meat, so I'll stick with the beef for a week
and will NOT mix it with kibble. <snip>
> I am feeding Guinness only twice a day. I was told by a trainer to
cut him down to twice a day. Do I really have to go to 3 times at this
point? Thanks again!
>

Messages in this topic (19)
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1c. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Ok, I'll do that for another 7 weeks or so, he's not a big breed and is probably well over 60% grown, hey, he had a nice small tight dootie this evening. That's only 4 today. Don't want the little cutie to get fat. Have to send you a pic. Please send a pic of your babes too. tx again Lyse

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, Lyse!
NPs, glad to help

ime, pups under 24 weeks need to eat 3 times a day.

If you give him a Big Food portion and he eats until he is full, he
may not want much the next couple meals. But he should be offered food
at the next meal times anyway. If he gets loose poops from Big Eating,
then you'll have to stop him when he's eaten about 1/3 of the day's
portion, then let him eat about a 1/3 the next meal, and so on.

Over 6 months to about 10-12 months he should have 2 meals a day.
After that, one meal a day, or less, should suffice.

Lyse

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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1d. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lyse!
Great!
I've never tried to post a photo to the group. I'll have to figure out
how to.
TC
Giselle

> Ok, I'll do that for another 7 weeks or so, he's not a big breed and
is probably well over 60% grown, hey, he had a nice small tight dootie
this evening. That's only 4 today. Don't want the little cutie to get
fat. Have to send you a pic. Please send a pic of your babes too. tx
again Lyse

Messages in this topic (19)
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2a. Re: new with many questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:08 am ((PDT))

"faithk99" <faithkohn@...> wrote:
>
> We have 3 dogs plus 2 visiting dogs on a regular basis. We
switched to
> the barf diet and as I read more, I am finding more information on
raw
> feeding instead.
*****
BARF is raw. BARF stands for a. bones and raw food or b.
biologically appropriate raw food or c. something else entirely; all
specify raw food.

Unfortuately, some interpreters think pasturized dairy products and
cooked lentils and steamed vegetables count as raw food, which
clearly confuses the issue by a lot.

This list encourages feeding whole, species appropriate raw meat,
edible bones and organs in amounts that generally approximate what's
provided by a prey animal, whether that's a mouse or a buffalo.
Diffences between BARF and this prey model feeding include:

--whole meats, organs and bones versus mince
--no dietary vegetables versus complicated veggie processing
--no grains versus an assortment of cooked grains
--supplementing specifically to address specific health issues versus
supplementing "on account" or just in case the diet is not enough
---complex and challenging meaty body parts versus bony RMBs
--providing complex and challenging meals versus bare "rec" bones

> someone explain the pros and cons or differences between the two
diets?
*****
The pros of BARF: it's not kibble

The cons of BARF: promotes dogs as omnivores; relies heavily on
heavily processed inappropriate food; includes too much edible bone;
includes rec bones known to damage teeth; encourages excessive
supplementing; does not offer adequate meat (flesh, fat, skin,
connection tissue)

The pros of prey model feeding; recognizes dog as both carnivore and
wolf; based on naturally-occurring proportions; based on naturally-
occurring "ingredients"; does not require mechanical processing; does
not require cooking; eliminates all or most supplements; discourages
use of tooth damaging weight-bearing "rec" bones

The cons of prey model feeding: perceived as nutritionally
incomplete; perceived as more difficult to obtain and provide;
perceived as messy

I'm sure there are more; this should be enough to get you going.

> I also read online that raw feeding is bad due to the bacteria and
> digestive problems it could cause your pet. Is this true?
*****
No. Digestive upset in rawfed or kibblefed dogs is mostly likely
caused by human error.

Bacteria are all around us, in us, on us, on what we touch. The
bacteria in a rawfed dog's digestive system are not more likely to
get you than the bacteria in a kibblefed dog's digestive system; and
most most unwanted bacterial exchanges come from contact with dog
stool, REGARDLESS of diet.

If you are already feeding BARF, you are already feeding raw meat.
What ARE you feeding?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: new with many questions
Posted by: "faithk99" faithkohn@gmail.com faithk99
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for your help. Yes, I am already feeding raw but I am not
sure if I am doing it correctly. I go to this local pet deli that
provides ground chicken with bone, and other types of meat (veal,
lamb, pork, beef, etc) in a medly which incorporates veggies and also
something they call bioessentials which is a combination of
organ/muscles etc. I fed a combination of these the first week and
the dogs seem to love it but I think it's not enough. I feed the
dogs on the advice of the person who runs the store and I wanted an
impartial opinion on what I am feeding the dogs. For the second week
which ends today, I gave the big dogs a turkey neck and the little
dogs a few chicken necks and they absolutely loved it. However, they
always seem hungry and now constantly follow me around. Should I be
feeding them more? 2 - 70lb dogs get 1.25lb/day; 1 - 35lb dog
(puppy) gets .50 lb/day; 1 -10lb dog (adult) get .25 lb per day of
some meet combination. Then I give them each a whole carrot as a
treat, this they also love.

If I want to feed them more whole meats? what can buy and how much
per dog per day? and if I buy meats from the butcher, do I need to
freeze them first before I feed to kill any salmonella?

The dogs have become very protective of their food and I need to feed
them seperately, is this normal? Is there another solution?

I appreciate all your advice.

Faith

> If you are already feeding BARF, you are already feeding raw meat.
> What ARE you feeding?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: new with many questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "faithk99" <faithkohn@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, I am already feeding raw but I am not sure if I am doing it
correctly.

I don't think you are. There is no need for ground anything.
The "pet deli" is selling you items that they make a profit on.
They won't tell you that its best by far to feed whole animal parts
only because they can't make a living on that. There is no way they
can sell you that stuff cheaper than a grocery store. Since dogs
are carnivores, there is no need for any veggies at all. My dogs
haven't eaten veggies in over 4 years. Most of the dogs on the list
haven't either. Yes, organ/muscles are "bioessential" (a made up
word) but only in the whole animal part form.

> However, they
> always seem hungry and now constantly follow me around. Should
> I be feeding them more?

Thats not unusual. Judge by the dogs appearance whether he needs
more food or not. If they are thin, feed more - fat, feed less.
It's as simple as that. They will try to convince you they need
more most all the time. :) :) :)

> If I want to feed them more whole meats? what can buy and
> how much per dog per day?

You can buy, whole chickens, half chickens, chicken quarters,
chicken backs, turkey necks, turkey wings, turkey legs, turkey
thighs, turkey quarters, pork roasts, racks of pork ribs, pork
necks, pig feet, pork heart, pork kidney, beef roasts, beef heart,
beef kidney, beef necks, cube steaks, any part of lamb, any fish but
particularly salmon and mackerel. Any deer meat you can beg off of
friends. Whole rabbits. If I have left off any animals, feed their
parts too.

A general rule is 2% to 3% of their ideal adult weight but once
again, let the dog tell you by his appearance exactly how much to
feed.

> and if I buy meats from the butcher, do I need to
> freeze them first before I feed to kill any salmonella?

If you buy any volume of meat, you probably will freeze at least
some of it anyway but no, its not necessary.

> The dogs have become very protective of their food and I need
> to feed
> them seperately, is this normal? Is there another solution?

Its not unusual. My dogs are the same way but they have learned
that if one isn't eating he will go to great extremes to avoid a dog
that is. If a dog gets too close to an eating dog, a low growl
usually takes care of the situation. My dogs take their food to
seperate rooms if fed whole pieces. The rare times they are fed in
their bowls, they are fed on opposite sides of the kitchen.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: new with many questions
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 2:07 pm ((PDT))

Faith wrote:

> . . . I go to this local pet deli that
>provides ground chicken with bone, and other types of meat (veal,
>lamb, pork, beef, etc) in a medly which incorporates veggies and also
>something they call bioessentials which is a combination of
>organ/muscles etc.

KA-CHING!

>I fed a combination of these the first week and
>the dogs seem to love it but I think it's not enough. I feed the
>dogs on the advice of the person who runs the store and I wanted an
>impartial opinion on what I am feeding the dogs.

Smart thinking!

>For the second week
>which ends today, I gave the big dogs a turkey neck and the little
>dogs a few chicken necks and they absolutely loved it. However, they
>always seem hungry and now constantly follow me around. Should I be
>feeding them more? 2 - 70lb dogs get 1.25lb/day; 1 - 35lb dog
>(puppy) gets .50 lb/day; 1 -10lb dog (adult) get .25 lb per day of
>some meet combination.

The basic recommendation is to feed 2 - 4% of the dog's ideal adult weight,
but it is entirely dependent on the individual dog and their activity and
metabolism. Smaller dogs may need a higher percentage as well.

I'd feed the 70 pounders at least 1.4 pounds unless you see that they are
gaining weight. The 35 pounder, if an adult, should get at least 0.7 or 11
ounces. As a puppy, you should be feeding based on what his adult weight will
be.

Sounds like you are underfeeding, especially if you're feeding vegetables -
they are not efficiently digested and provide little nutrition.

>Then I give them each a whole carrot as a treat, this they also love.

The carrot is fine as a treat, but don't count it as food. If you clean up
after them, you'll likely see that it's not digested much.

>If I want to feed them more whole meats? what can buy and how much
>per dog per day? and if I buy meats from the butcher, do I need to
>freeze them first before I feed to kill any salmonella?

Read the messages, read the archives. We advocate a prey model diet that
tries to mimic what a dog/wolf would eat in the wild. For example, feed a
whole chicken, from beak to toenails, if possible. Not necessarily in one
meal, but don't get too stuck in a rut with one meat source. Feed a chicken
leg quarter. Skin, meat, bone, all together. Most of the meat I feed comes
from the grocery store, no special source. I cruise the nearby warehouse club
every few days for "reduced for quick sale" meats. Beef, pork, chicken, fish,
turkey, goat, and lamb are the most common meats. Specialty items can be
found at ethnic markets, from local meat processors, or farms.

With regard to salmonella and other health concerns:
http://www.rawlearning.com
http://www.rawmeatybones.com
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

>The dogs have become very protective of their food and I need to feed
>them seperately, is this normal? Is there another solution?

They are hungry and very excited to get real food. Continue to feed them
separately until you are certain they will not fight and you have a good
comfort level as to their diet. Then join RawChat where people can explain
how they have trained their dogs to eat only in their designated space and to
not enter another dog's feeding space.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Krissy" krissy@mitre.org krissyar26
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:17 am ((PDT))

>> the only concern I have is that if I give her more than what she
>> can eat at once then what will I do with the rest?

Hi Yuliya,

Put the leftovers back in the freezer for another meal. I do it all
the time, multiple times w/very large items, hot weather, cold weather,
dirt-encrusted, whatever. No problems.

Krissy

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Yuliya!
Whether you're feeding inside or outside, you can provide a large
towel or blanket for her to eat on, and surround her with an ex-pen to
keep her from dragging her food around.

When she is done, offer to let her out of the pen without the leftover
food for a yummy piece of treat. Pick up the leftovers with an inside
out baggie and put in the fridge. you can then fold up the
towel/blanket and put it aside until the next meal.

Wa-La! No dirty food, no food being dragged around the house.

You can also feed food that is partially/completly frozen, especially
in this heat.

TC
Giselle

> that's what I was thinking too, give her larger parts
> to chew on, the only concern I have is that if I give
> her more than what she can eat at once then what will
> I do with the rest? it's so hot outside I worry that
> the food will go bad. She eats outside on the
> backyard, I didn't feel comfortable with her drugging
> raw meets around the house, I have small kids and
> husband whose immune system is not very good.
> thakn you for your answers.
> Yuliya
>
>
>
>
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Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "Jane Walker" janeewalker@suddenlink.net janeewalker5
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:31 am ((PDT))

Hi Laurie,

I tried the boneless, skinless chicken breasts this morning - I baked
them for a few minutes first (more for me - but I'm sure I will get
over this).

The dogs loved it - and some of my cats as well (as of my writing
yesterday I had not yet been accepted to the raw cat group, but am
now).

One dog, Wolfie, is a 70 pound stray - mix - the other, Little Bit,
is 30 pounds and looks like a beagle/dauschund mix.

So I can just throw them a whole chicken - and the bones and skin are
OK?? What kind of meat can I buy with a lot of bone for them?
something like pork ribs?? I don't have a clue and will go to the
market today. I just haven't had time to read all of the info on the
raw web sites...so any quick advice would be good.

What about those bones that you can get in Petsmart? Knuckle bone -
something big for Wolfie and medium for Little Bit - are those bones
bad - is there something to buy for them to chew on that is
healthy??? What about Greenies?? Does it all need to be fresh??
thanks for info! I will get there gradually....Thanks so much!

Janee

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" wrote:
I don't have cats. You will get some cat advice here, but there is
also the RawCat list. Boneless chicken breasts are probably going to
be inhaled by your dogs (unless they're really big, they're just the
right size and texture for a gulp or two, probably). Which isn't
going to hurt them, but they will get much more benefit from a
bigger, bone- in hunk. What sizes are your dogs? You'd do better
with leg quarters or better yet, half or whole chickens. >
>
I'm a vegetarian, too, but I love feeding my dog his appropriate
diet. > Any specific concerns?

Laurie

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "Jane Walker" janeewalker@suddenlink.net janeewalker5
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

Hi Kerry - thanks so much for your words of wisdom. It is very hard,
after so many years of being fed pet food lies (I am 55, to accept that
dogs and cats do not need grains and all of those wonderful sounding
herbs and oils, etc.,that the brillant per food marketers use. One of
my vets uses and belives that Pedigree hard food is great for her dogs -
she likes the way it makes their coats shine. She says that animals
in the wild eat other animals who have had grass or grains and are in
their stomachs...well, we've all certainly heard that one, haven't we?

It has taken me a while to get to this group, and I change slowly, but
it will come. I will find time to read more soon, I hope.

Janee

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pelirojita" <kerrymurray7@...> wrote:

Others will chime in with their rawfeeding wisdom. I just want to say
that I am a vegetarian for the same reasons as you and have recently
switched to feeding my dogs raw. I know next to nothing about cats,
but for your dogs boneless skinless chicken breast is a start but they
are going to need something that they can tuck in to, like the whole
chicken, as chewing and gnawing on the bones is half the fun. Right
now you can hand the breasts whole to your dogs and they will probably
gulp them down in a few second flat, depending on your dogs' size (at
least my dogs would...)
>
Kerry Tucson, AZ

Messages in this topic (7)
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4c. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT))

Janee,

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Walker" <janeewalker@...>
wrote:
> So I can just throw them a whole chicken - and the bones and skin
are
> OK??

***Well, yes, but some things to consider...

You might want to remove some or all of the skin at first, or later,
if you have any digestive issues. Sometimes too much fat in the
beginning can cause loose stool.

Does either have any food aggression? Do they eat comfortably
together? I only have 1 dog. I hear about people letting their dogs
feed off the same hunk, but many feed separately--on towels, in
different rooms, in crates, whatever. You may not be able to tell
how much food each is getting if you feed off the same hunk. So,
throw the whole chicken out for both, or divvy it up and feed
separately. You can search the archives for things like "feeding
multiple dogs" for more info.

To make it easy, Wolfie will probably be eating about 2#/day and
Little Bit about 1#. The general rule is start with 2-3% of ideal
body weight and adjust from there, depending on activity level,
over/underweight status, etc.

You can let them eat part of a chicken, then take it up and re-frig
it or re-freeze it for another meal, or cut into meal-size portions.

>What kind of meat can I buy with a lot of bone for them?
> something like pork ribs??

***They don't need a lot of bone. Think as if you're feeding them a
whole animal and then buy parts that over time, resemble that. Lots
of meat, some bone, a little organs. You might want to stick with
chicken for a week or 2 and see how things go. If you want to add
variety in now, you can, but you may need to back up and simplify if
you get any issues. Their digestive systems need to do a lot of
adjusting and healing and get up to speed after being fed junk for
years.

So, long-term, any meat is fine. Once you start getting into the
butcher cut bones, there are some things to be aware of. You don't
want small/sharp bones for the dogs (like when they cut pork necks
into small triangles, or pork chops...but if you find a good deal on
pork chops, you can just cut out the bone and feed the meat). The
cats, I don't know about--maybe they can safely eat some of those
smaller bones the dogs can't.

Slabs of pork ribs are good, but pretty fatty. You'll want to add
some meat to them, probably. Pork roasts are good. Any turkey
parts, beef cuts (except t-bones, with those small, sharp, sawed
bones), lamb, goat, etc.

> What about those bones that you can get in Petsmart? Knuckle bone -

> something big for Wolfie and medium for Little Bit - are those
bones
> bad - is there something to buy for them to chew on that is
> healthy???

***I don't know exactly what Petsmart carries, but you don't want any
cooked bones! If they aren't refrigerated or frozen, I'm sure they
must be cooked and/or smoked. AND, you don't want those big
beef/buffalo bones--cooked OR raw--they're too dense and can wear
down, chip, or break teeth (many stories of this have been posted on
here and my dog has 2 chipped teeth from before I knew better).

Their meals will be more satisfying now, so they may not need as much
other chewing activity. If you want to keep them busy, stuff a Kong
with ground meat, freeze it, and feed that. Or, there are things
like long pigs' feet and other ideas in the archives (search "rec
bones").

>What about Greenies??

***I've heard these have caused impactions or obstructions and even
deaths. They are not well digested at all. I believe the
manufacturer is being sued by several people.

>Does it all need to be fresh??

***For bones, yes. For treats, not necessarily.

Are you reading the other posts that are coming through? There is a
wealth of info just even in one day. Read a few days and you'll get
a lot of questions answered.

Enjoy!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. how much?
Posted by: "DebiC" dcole6@satx.rr.com scarlet_debi
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

I'm sure this was answered long ago but I seem to have missed it.

How many lbs of dog food per lbs of dog? I was feeding a chicken quarter a day (for an example) to my Jack Russells who weigh 13 and 15 lbs. They would eat the whole thing on Mon, then leave 1/2 on Tuesday, then 1/2 lb organ meat on Weds, then not want anything on Thursday, and leave some of their beef on Fri.

Is this good? The male will gorge and not eat the next day, the female will hide whats left and eat it the next day. I also think my male is eating something(?) that he digs up in the yard, literally.

Neither of them are fat, both very active in the yard and on walks.

We are also still having skin allergy problems aka the Itchy and Scratchy Show.

Debi and the Mud Dogs

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: how much?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Sounds like they know what they're doing, and are naturally putting
themselves on a more natural feeding schedule! The general rule is
to start with 2-3% of ideal body weight per day, but that of course,
can be spread out into fewer meals. Smaller dogs tend to need a
higher percentage of body weight. If they are happy, healthy, and
not losing weight, I wouldn't worry at all!

Not sure about the food-hiding, though. I mean, it's probably
normal, but do you have to worry about attracting other animals into
your yard? I might not let her hide the food for that reason.
Perhaps others can chime in on this one.

As far as the itching, the first thing would be to make sure the
chicken isn't enhanced. Other than that, it may just take some
time. How long have you been feeding raw?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "DebiC" <dcole6@...> wrote:

> How many lbs of dog food per lbs of dog?

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: What Next?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kjdaughtridge"
<kjdaughtridge@...> wrote:
>
> So here's my question...I think we're ready to start adding new
> proteins. What would you recommend for a second meat?

> Also, I'm a little confused
> about what pork and cow bones are ok.

Kathleen,
You are doing great so far. I suggest you try turkey next. You can
alternate chicken and turkey meals for a week. If all goes ok, and
it probably will, the next week add a couple of meals of pork. The
next week a meal or two of beef would be good. Somewhere in there
add a meal or two of fish. There are really no hard and fast rules
in doing this. Just take it slow and easy and add a protein a week
as long as everything is ok. If things deteriorate, back up and
slow down a little.

Because there are no hard fast rules, feel free to change the order
of any of the protein sources above. :) :) :)

You can feed most any pork bones you wish. They are all pretty
editable. I don't feed beef bones at all because of their density
but many feed them with no problem. There is no bone shortage in my
dog's diets so why add in the dense bones? If you wish to feed beef
bones, it would be ok to feed any but the leg bones.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (26)
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7a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

I think you have to decide what the definition of "high" and "low"
is. If bloodwork from a raw fed dog is different than that of a
kibble fed dog, which is "normal"? Why would you think that readings
from a kibble fed dog should be the norm? Kibble is an artificial and
inappropriate food and probably would create artificial and
inapproptiate blood chemestry levels.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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7b. Re: labwork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@...>
wrote:
>
> Sorry, but you need more information to say that a raw diet is not
> higher than kibble. You can't compare percent protein
> directly between
> raw meat and kibble.

Correct but not for the reasons you think. Actually the raw diet is
a very high protein diet compared to kibble however it is the proper
amount of protein for a canine.

To compare protein in a raw diet to protein in a kibble diet you
must take into consideration moisture. Kibble is less than 10%
moisture and its protein percentage is a dry weight. Raw is ~75 -
80% mositure and its protein is measured in a wet weight. If you
measure a raw diet's protein in dry weight (same as kibble) it would
be greater than 80% protein.

The difference is that protein in a raw diet is high quality easily
digestable protein from only meat sources whereas kibble protein is
a VERY low quality from both meat and plant sources that is
practically indigestable. To compare the two is to compare apples
and oranges (to coin a phrase).

Millions of years of evolution and mother nature has proven that the
protein content in a raw diet is at the correct level. To say a dog
should eat 20 or 24% protein is pulling arbibrary numbers out of a
hat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. Re: WHOOO HOO!!!
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

Linda wrote:

>Gizzy is eating his first thigh!!!!!!!!!!! He just looked at it for a bit and now is eating it. I cut a little bit of the meat off and gave to sass. But he's eating it. I also cut the skin off, do I want to be doing this???? Will he eat that bone, or is that too big for him? (toy poodle 5#). He should at least chew on it a bit? How long should it be left out for him. He is fed in his kennel. I suppose as long as he's chewing, huh? (that was kinda a blond question :} )

Congratulations for taking the plunge!

Guessing this is chicken and not turkey . . . he may or may not eat the bone,
but it is perfectly appropriate for him to do so. A turkey leg bone might be
a bit big for him as his first raw meal.

In general, there's no need to remove the skin. Remember that you're feeding
prey model - your dog would eat the entire chicken, from its beak to its
toenails. However, the chickens I get in the store usually have more fat than
a dog/wolf would find in nature, so I pull off the obvious hunks of fat.
There's a good amount of fat underlying the skin, but it's difficult to
separate, so I don't.

What is a "sass"?

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Moral Support and Feedback - UTI advice
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

Meg wrote:

>I think I am
>doing pretty good on variety and content one month in, right?

It sounds fabulous to me!

>I've
>been reading everything going through the list and make good use of
>the archives as much as possible.

Love you for that!

>Well, my pup is sick. She has a raging UTI (she is peeing blood and
>obviously miserable when she tries to go). Of course, critters love to
>get sick on Sundays, right? She won't eat, and a little while ago she
>threw up a little in the kitchen... I know you can all relate to
>feeling of being a bad parent when your pet gets sick. This is her
>second UTI this year (she had at least three last year). I was really
>hoping the raw would help with this, and it still may, I know its
>early. Her skin problems (staph & allergies problems) keep flaring up
>as well. I am trying not to waiver on feeding raw. This is what my dog
>needs, right? She just looks so sad and unhappy right now, and this
>is the first time she's vomited when she's had a UTI.
>
>I just need a little diet feedback, and maybe a little cheerleading?

Although several people will weigh in with their experience tonight, my
thought is that she may not have been fully cleared of the infection in the
first place, and may very well need a good stiff dose (or two) of an
antibiotic that will kick it outta there. You may also want to do some online
research on possible herbs or probiotics that might help balance her system
while she's being treated.

I wouldn't worry about a single vomit, especially since you described it as
"a little." She's likely just feeling crappy.

5 weeks of raw is probably not long enough to counteract 2 1/2 years of
kibble, so be patient - her immune system will build and begin fighting off
these infections on its own, but it may still need a little help right now.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Typical Human
Posted by: "c_lindaberry" c_lindaberry@yahoo.com c_lindaberry
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Dave,

Switch to raw. It's the best diet you can offer your dogs because it's
what their bodies are adapted to process. If the kibble hasn't helped
it's not likely to. While it can take up to three months, as your vet
said, it rarely actually does. I work in GSD rescue and have two of
them myself, both of whom suffer from allergies.

My female has food allergies, which, in GSDs usually show up as hot
spots, vomiting, chronic or acute dirrhea, ear inflammation leading to
inffections and only rarely as generalized itching. Her's presented as
diarrhea. We tried her on different kibbles for TWO YEARS with no
resolution. Some kibbles made it better, others worse, but none
actually solved it. Within TWO DAYS of switching to raw there was no
more diarrhea or loose stool...well, that's not quite true, she still
gets the runs if she eats too much at once, but that's my fault.

My male also has allergies that present as generalized itching and
licking. His are not food-related. After a month on raw with no
improvement, I realized that for him, it wasn't a dietary thing, and
he was clear of parasites, meaning that it was an immune issue (as are
all allergies) that was reacting to environmental stimulus. These
inhalant allergies are not fixed by food, because that's not what
they're connected to. They nearly always present as generalized
itching, often worse in the winter when there's not as much air
circulation and allergens build up. There are some treatments for them
that can help. Adding lots of 0mega3 (fish oil) can help, as can
frequent bathing and cleaning any bedding or other places the dog
spends time. Benadryl and Cortico-steroids (to suppress the
misbehaving immune system) and allergy shots are the medical options
going from most conservative/least side effects/cheapest to most
aggressive/dangerous/espensive.

I've had my male on fish oil, twice-weekly baths, and benadryl for
nearly 3 weeks and it's made a huge difference. Since it can take up
to a month for the Omega3 to become really effective at reducing
inflamation and itchyness, I'm hopeful, but not counting on weaning
him off the benadryl soon. I'm sure a good raw diet has helped him,
but that's not what his problem is, and I wouldn't be willing to bet
that that's where your GSD's itching comes from either.

Crystal and the Zoo

Messages in this topic (19)
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11. Feeding Squirrel
Posted by: "akita6691" kyharris@dtnspeed.net akita6691
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

My husband & I are new members to the group, so forgive what I'm sure
is a question that's been asked in the past.

We have tons of gray squirrels in our little town, which only one
person in the neighborhood likes. They're very aggressive and loud.
When we told our neighbor who lets our dogs out during the day when
he's home that we were feeding raw meat to them, he wanted to know if
we wanted some squirrels. I told him I didn't know if they were on the
list, but I would check. He's going to help us out with other wild
game when hunting season opens, so we like him a lot!

What's the word on squirrel? Thanks.

Rob & Karen
Bear, Daisy, Peaches, Myles & Mitzi

Messages in this topic (1)
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12. Re: WHOO HOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

What is a sass?

Short for Sassafrass, my cat. Lol
Sorry, and yes it was a chicken thigh.
Linda

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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13. Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
Posted by: "Eve Rosenzweig" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I just fed
my 17 lb pekingese a 1/3 lb of raw beef/steak (no
bone) for the first time and he took two chews and
swallowed the whole thing! I am freaking out big time!

He is used to ground beef with a grain/veggie mixture,
which I know is not correct. And he is a scarfer,
hence the huge gulp of steak.

1. Is he going to get sick from swallowing the whole
steak?

2. How do I get him not to gulp?

3. And if the answer to number 2 is to give him
something attached to a bone, I am frightened he will
try and scarf down the bone.

4. He ate his grain breakfast this morning. When
should I try and feed him again?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really need
some tips to get him started on chewing his food.

Eve, NYC

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14. A very Happy Newbie!
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding raw everything and my pugs and pit puppy have turned
into little wolves! They love their food and if I didn't take it away
from them I believe I'd have porkers not dogs (lol). Speaking of the
pugs, they do not shed anymore, their teeth are WHITE (even the back
ones), their eyes are clear, their breath is fresh, their allover fur
is like what their ears feel like-kidskin.

The animals have helped me in that they like whatever I give them. So
far they have tasted sweetbreads, cow liver, gizzards, beef, pork,
chicken, tongue, beef and pork heart, pork ribs, lamb backs, chicken
necks and one of their favorites: chicken feet. I'm working on getting
goat.

To everyone on this board, you have helped me immensely switching over
to raw and I will never look back :)

Silvina
and the pugs + Beefy

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Feed Pets Raw Food

Sunday, July 8, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11777

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