[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11774

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Thanks
From: K9FindM@aol.com
1b. Re: Thanks
From: Lyse Garant

2a. Re: Eggs and other extras
From: Giselle
2b. Re: Eggs and other extras
From: costrowski75

3. Re: Bone in butts & loins... help!
From: Terri Leist

4a. Re: Venison and goopy poo
From: Rose
4b. Re: Venison and goopy poo
From: Yuliya Brown

5a. Re: leg of lamb and chicken questions
From: Laurie Swanson
5b. Re: leg of lamb and chicken questions
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: pelirojita
6b. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: Laurie Swanson

7. THIS IS HOW I DO IT..........
From: Goin8@aol.com

8a. What Next?
From: kjdaughtridge

9a. dental problems
From: Yuliya Brown
9b. Re: dental problems
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
9c. Re: dental problems
From: Bearhair

10a. Typical Human
From: Dave Teetz
10b. Re: Typical Human
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
10c. Re: Typical Human
From: Giselle
10d. Re: Typical Human
From: borntolose1945

11a. Re: How do you figure
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: labwork
From: costrowski75
12b. Re: labwork
From: darkstardog

13a. Getting ready to take the plunge!
From: Lori Poirier

14. Thank You!
From: Linda

Messages
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1a. Re: Thanks
Posted by: "K9FindM@aol.com" K9FindM@aol.com bctwister03
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

German Shepherd Dog - also have no idea why question marks came at the end of all of my sentences.

Maria

-----Original Message-----
From: Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Thanks

I am sorry to sound so naive, but I keep seeing GSD as type of dog, what does that stand for???
Lyse, Owner of 16 week old Welsh Terrier Guinness, very soon to start a raw diet.

K9FindM@aol.com wrote:

Thanks to all who responded on my inquiries regarding feeding fish and organs.? I am a "partial" raw feeder with some kibble thrown in case of deployment.? I have an 8 year old GSD whom I pulled from work this past winter due to her advanced?arthritis and she is doing quite well since I started adding raw to her diet.? She does get Adequan injections and is too crippled to work anymore, but at home, you wouldn't know.?? We swim, massage, etc among other things.

Maria
SARDOM

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Lyse

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Messages in this topic (20)
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1b. Re: Thanks
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 3:15 pm ((PDT))

wow, should have known, just never pictured "dog" at the end of the breed name cause I thought we were all talking DOG. FUNNY, I even thought, Great Saint Dane, know of course there is no such thing. thank you! I just fed Guinness raw steak chopped up and some kibble, think I have to start gradually, but most of it was steak. He loved it. I was glad the question came around about eggs as I was wondering about those as well.
Lyse & Guinness

K9FindM@aol.com wrote:

German Shepherd Dog - also have no idea why question marks came at the end of all of my sentences.

Maria

-----Original Message-----
From: Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Thanks

I am sorry to sound so naive, but I keep seeing GSD as type of dog, what does that stand for???
Lyse, Owner of 16 week old Welsh Terrier Guinness, very soon to start a raw diet.

K9FindM@aol.com wrote:

Thanks to all who responded on my inquiries regarding feeding fish and organs.? I am a "partial" raw feeder with some kibble thrown in case of deployment.? I have an 8 year old GSD whom I pulled from work this past winter due to her advanced?arthritis and she is doing quite well since I started adding raw to her diet.? She does get Adequan injections and is too crippled to work anymore, but at home, you wouldn't know.?? We swim, massage, etc among other things.

Maria
SARDOM

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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyse

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyse

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always stay connected to friends.

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Messages in this topic (20)
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2a. Re: Eggs and other extras
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sheryl!
Not sure how you can waste an egg, unless the dog doesn't eat it at
all! : )
Eggs are fine food, but you can feed or not, with the shells or not,
its all good.
Your dogs will let you know how many, how often, and when to feed
eggs. Some dogs find eggs loosening, it usually doesn't bother them,
but it might bother you.
I don't feed eggs every day, or even every week. Sometimes I toss one
in with a meal, sometimes I feed it as a fun snack. Not too much fun,
you understand. After the first sniff, "Is this a ball, mom? No, its
food!" dealy, my girl noses it, then takes off to somewhere
comfortable to crack and eat it up.
I never feed eggs with liver or squidgy organs, just tempting fate is
my thought on that.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi everyone,
>
> In the nine months I've rawfed my herd and been a member of this
> listserve, I've come to understand that there really are no new
> questions, only those I missed the response to when they were last
> asked. I'm sure my present question will be no less so.
>
> - I give an egg each day? Is that okay? I thought I read about some
> adverse effects in an earlier post.
>
> When I supplement my dog's diet, is it better to give them with the
> evening meal or the morning meal? Just wondered. Both my dogs sleep
> most of the day while I'm at work, so would it be wasted during less
> active hours?
>
> Thanks in advance for your feedback. :)
>
> Sheryl Edelen
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Eggs and other extras
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:50 pm ((PDT))

"Sheryl Edelen" <sophiiblu@...> wrote:
> In the nine months I've rawfed my herd and been a member of this
> listserve, I've come to understand that there really are no new
> questions, only those I missed the response to when they were last
> asked.
*****
Yes! Good heavens yes, I think you've got it.
It's like what is said about writing fiction: there are only five
plots.

> - I give an egg each day? Is that okay? I thought I read about
some
> adverse effects in an earlier post.
*****
Is fine. The only adverse effects you might see/smell would be
digestive discomfort. From an accumulated vitamin/mineral
perspective, there is nothing to worry about.

> When I supplement my dog's diet, is it better to give them with the
> evening meal or the morning meal?
*****
Supplement with what? Eggs? Not hardly supplements! They're real
food. Feed them at which ever meal works for your schedule. What is
likely to be wasted? Whole natural food is not generally wasted,
regardless of when it's fed.

OTOH, if your dogs produce prodigious gas that might be captured as
energy, you might want to be home to enjoy the rewards.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3. Re: Bone in butts & loins... help!
Posted by: "Terri Leist" qahri@sbcglobal.net qahri
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

There is a small amount of meat on the rib bones, i.e. just enough to cover the bone. Not but maybe 1/4 inch or so thick. I have been giving those to Kadin when I leave the house for a long period of time since she was a pup, so those might be the culpret. Lilly doesn't have any problems w/ her teeth, but she is not as exuberant w/ her food. She likes to take her time & enjoy each nibble, so I don't think she would have the same problems.

After they are done w/ the pork butts, shoulders I never see any of those bones lying around, so I guess they are getting eaten. I DO however see the rib bones lying around, maybe because they are too hard w/ not enough meat on them???

I'll stop giving them when I leave & see if the teeth stop getting shorter??


Thanks for the help.

Terri & the Raw Fed-"Muttly Crew" Kadin & Lilly:
Learn how: www.rawfeddogs.net

www.rawfed.com

www.rawmeatybones.com

Over exposure to the SON; actually PREVENTS burning!!

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Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Venison and goopy poo
Posted by: "Rose" liddielolamum@yahoo.com liddielolamum
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Alfonso and Nadia De La Cruz
<chickendido@...> wrote:
>
>I called the vet and he's saying that she probably has worms caused
by the raw.

In two days?! At all?!
If he really believes what he's saying, he needs to do Parasitology
101 again.
Rose

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Venison and goopy poo
Posted by: "Yuliya Brown" yuliya_brown@yahoo.com yuliya_brown
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:51 pm ((PDT))

> How long should I wait
> for my older dog's poop? How long is too long
> without poop and what should I do to make him
> poop???
My dog was having terrible diarreah while on chicken,
so I switched her to beef, she didn't have poop for 3
DAYS! it came out quite fine after that and she is ok.
I was a bit worried too though, mostly because I
didn't want her to have it in the house while I am
out.
Yuliya

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Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: leg of lamb and chicken questions
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 3:35 pm ((PDT))

What kind/size of terrier mix do you have? My 20 lb. Boston crunches
and gnaws the ball joint end of a lamb leg, but then I take it away
because he'll work too hard on the hollow part and it sounds like he's
going to break a tooth. And occasionally, he'll make progress on that
part before I take it, but I'll find that it has broken into pieces it
looks like he could choke on. Bigger dogs can probably do fine with
it. The meat is great!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mona" <mldbach@...> wrote:
>
> My husband just bought a leg of lamb and is planning on giving it to
the dog. Is it OK? The
> reason I'm asking is, a) we're new to this and b) I read that cow
thigh and big bones aren't
> good because it can cause the teeth to chip. Does lamb bone fall
into this category?
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: leg of lamb and chicken questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:32 pm ((PDT))

"Mona" <mldbach@...> wrote:
>
> My husband just bought a leg of lamb and is planning on giving it
to the dog. Is it OK?
*****
My dogs think you should send the leg o' lamb their way.

The
> reason I'm asking is, a) we're new to this and b) I read that cow
thigh and big bones aren't
> good because it can cause the teeth to chip. Does lamb bone fall
into this category?
*****
Lambs are generally slaughtered at 6 months (I think); beefs are in a
full and upright position for at least a year longer. My retrievers
eat lamb legs without difficulty, my nine month old pup will happily
peel every last morsel from a lamb shank and wrestle with the bone
until I take it away. I'd imagine a terrier mix (medium size dog)
would have little difficulty with the flesh but might not want to
tackle the bone. And of course, you might not be comfortable yet
with the long bone of a lamb leg.

And of course and of course, if your dog is not used to a great hunk
of lamb meat you might be setting both your dog and yourselves up for
some ginormous digestive distress. Theoretically lamb leg is fine
food; in practice you might want to go easy on it. Perhaps, cut off
some meat by way of introduction?

She didn't eat for almost a week, so my husband bought her some red
> meat with bones that she really likes.
*****
What kind of bones and is she eating them and how is her digestive
system handling them?

What are the chances of her eventually eating chicken?
*****
Could go either way. If you offered all sorts of chicken parts and
she weren't having none of any of it, chicken may not be her meat.
OTOH, if you offered one piece and if the one piece was a neck or a
wing or a back (none are particularly meaty) you may not have offered
a broad enough palate for her to choose from. In which case you
should try again. Not necessarily at the expense of other protein
sources, just in addition to.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 3:35 pm ((PDT))

>
> I am a vegetarian and always avoid the meat section of a grocery
> store. I have a problem with the whole factory farming industry -
> but that's not for this forum. Yesterday, I made myself buy some
> chicken - they had organic chicken - but only boneless, skinless
> breasts - so I have a package of this chicken - what am I supposed to
> do with it?
>

Hi Janee,

Others will chime in with their rawfeeding wisdom. I just want to say
that I am a vegetarian for the same reasons as you and have recently
switched to feeding my dogs raw. I know next to nothing about cats,
but for your dogs boneless skinless chicken breast is a start but they
are going to need something that they can tuck in to, like the whole
chicken, as chewing and gnawing on the bones is half the fun. Right
now you can hand the breasts whole to your dogs and they will probably
gulp them down in a few second flat, depending on your dogs' size (at
least my dogs would...)

In the past I have cooked for my dogs, fed complicated raw ground
mixes with supplements, grains and veggies, and am now on the
rawfeeding prey model as advocated by this list. As a vegetarian who
really wants as little to do with dead animals as possible, the prey
model is in my experience the easiest to deal with. No nasty cooking
smells, and since I handle most of the food when frozen it doesn't
seem so fleshy. Now, granted, I am new and have yet to feed tripe ;) !!

My dogs are happy and spend quite a bit of time with their meals and
come out looking satisfied. I will probably never work up to feeding
a fully furred rabbit as that is just a bit too close to reality for
me, but I have been able to source from local organic farmers all
sorts of parts (waiting on first shipments so this might be jumping
the gun a bit) that will provide my dogs with variety while keeping my
wallet from supporting factory farming practices. When I have to deal
with fresher meat, I just put on the gloves I use to handle chilies
and suck it up and deal. My happy dogs are great motivators.

Good luck. I look forward to hearing how it goes.

Kerry
Tucson, AZ

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:18 pm ((PDT))

Hi Janee,

I don't have cats. You will get some cat advice here, but there is
also the RawCat list. Boneless chicken breasts are probably going to
be inhaled by your dogs (unless they're really big, they're just the
right size and texture for a gulp or two, probably). Which isn't going
to hurt them, but they will get much more benefit from a bigger, bone-
in hunk. What sizes are your dogs? You'd do better with leg quarters
or better yet, half or whole chickens. Don't cook it unless your dogs
are really giving you grief after a couple days and you want to maybe
sear it slightly to make it more appealing. They will hopefully take
to it right away, though.

I'm a vegetarian, too, but I love feeding my dog his appropriate diet.
Any specific concerns?

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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7. THIS IS HOW I DO IT..........
Posted by: "Goin8@aol.com" Goin8@aol.com menoebs
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:18 pm ((PDT))

I find myself talking about my OEB's all the time not remembering that
everyone here doesnt have OLDE ENGLISH BULLDOGGES!
I also feed raw, I have 2 OEB's and a PB (pitt bull) I buy my raw from
canine preformance already packaged, its cheap and comes frozen to my door, I have
a seperate freezer I use just for the dogs food and take a 10lb 'er out
every 5-6 days.
I feed RMB's also, from canine preformance ...the dogs LOVE these, we call
them puppy pacifiers! Keeps them busy for hours!
Anyways, I know I dont do it the hunting way but we do it RAW thats all that
counts!

Audrey Johnson

"My Goal in Life is to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am!"

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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8a. What Next?
Posted by: "kjdaughtridge" kjdaughtridge@yahoo.com kjdaughtridge
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

I'm just finishing up my second week w/my two dogs(65# shepherd mix &
93# greyhound.)Week 1: I gave them chicken leg quarters twice a day.
Week 2:I got whole chickens, cut them into quarters and fed a quarter,
2 times/day to each dog. Plus, since I've been getting the whole
chickens, I split the organs between the two dogs as well. I've
gradually increasing the amount the greyhound gets since he's such a
big boy.

So far things have been going great. They both took to it like, well,
like a dog to a bone! Some soft stools, but overall, things are
firming up in that department. My shepherd mix, who was just diagnosed
with one of his frequent severe ear infections before we stared raw,
amazed our vet with how quickly it cleared up.

So here's my question...I think we're ready to start adding new
proteins. What would you recommend for a second meat? Should I add
that in for one meal and keep one meal chicken each day or just switch
to the new one entirely for a week or two? Also, I'm a little confused
about what pork and cow bones are ok. I know the weight bearing bones
should be avoided, but I'm still confused about whether or not ribs
and necks are ok.

Thanks for everyone's help and support. --Kathleen

Messages in this topic (25)
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9a. dental problems
Posted by: "Yuliya Brown" yuliya_brown@yahoo.com yuliya_brown
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:49 pm ((PDT))

Hello,
I am new to this list.
I have 18 moths old Kerry Blue terrier who was on raw
diet all her life.
I just noticed that her teeth are starting to look
like they will have to be cleaned soon. I am very
dissapointed as I thought that the raw diet helps with
this. I used to feed her chiken mostly, I would buy a
chicken and cut it in quaters, but lately she started
to have troule digesting chicken so I am switching to
beef. I was wondering that maybe she doesnt get
enought of the chewing , the problem is she doesn;t
like bones. She will chew on the chewing things from
the store for ever, but doesn't want to chew on
bones:-( I tried to offer her beef ribs and she is not
too excited about them. Any suggestions on how I can
clean her teeth natural way? I hoped to avoid dental
visits to the vet.
Thanks a lot!
Yuliya

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9b. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

Yuliya,
Have you tried other ribs, like pork? Or pigs feet? Mine love those. And even ostrich legs, lots of marrow and the bones are really good too. There are also buffalo ribs, that would be a different taste for her.
What do you mean she is having a problem digesting the chicken? That isn't something that usually happens after this long on the diet. And what chewing things are you giving her from the store? Maybe that is what is building up on her teeth. Store bought chewies are not ideal for the dental work of our dogs. They shouldn't really even be in the mix. That might also be what is the problem with her digestion too. RMB should be on the menu. We need more info:) There are alot of other things you can do to help her out with the teeth problem, we should probably figure out why she can't digest chicken though, that has alot of good bones for her. But you might try some pork products if beef isn't getting her excited. It's on the cheap side. And also the feet are good for chewies, and the ribs are good for bones. If you can get a good butcher contact you can even use the liver and organs from the pig too.
But give us some more info and I am sure some more people will chime in to help you out. Hang in there, you'll do fine.
jeni

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9c. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

Yuliya wrote:

>I am new to this list.
>I have 18 moths old Kerry Blue terrier who was on raw
>diet all her life.
>I just noticed that her teeth are starting to look
>like they will have to be cleaned soon. I am very
>dissapointed as I thought that the raw diet helps with
>this. I used to feed her chiken mostly, I would buy a
>chicken and cut it in quaters, but lately she started
>to have troule digesting chicken so I am switching to
>beef. . . . she doesn;t
>like bones. She will chew on the chewing things from
>the store for ever, but doesn't want to chew on
>bones:-( I tried to offer her beef ribs and she is not
>too excited about them.

It sounds as though you have been feeding only chicken, and are now switching
over to only beef . . . is that correct?

Lora
Evanston, IL

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10a. Typical Human
Posted by: "Dave Teetz" dteetz@gmail.com
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:50 pm ((PDT))

Greetings.

I'm new to the list today. My main intention with the list is to learn.
The learning that I can accomplish will influence what I may feed my animals
in the future, but right now they are both getting what the Vet has
suggested (more in a bit).

As I age (early 40's now) I am more concerned with what I consume. I also
am concerned with what I provide to my animals. In fact, I can say I'm more
concerned with what I provide to them as they really are not provided a
choice of what they get to consume - that's on me. I, on the other hand, I
can abuse myself in any way I wish.

Animals

- 6 yo Golden Retriever Recently fixed - he comes from Champion show
parents. He was trained for pet therapy by my sis-in-law. She was no
longer able to keep him, so we eagerly agreed to take ownership. We were
not able to continue the pet therapy, but greatly enjoy his obedience and
eagerness to please. He recently had dental surgery to repair gum issues
and a cleaning. Otherwise, except for the tonnage-reduction-program we have
him on (changed to adult food and increased exercise) he's healthy. I know
this is addressed with the raw diet, but will honestly admit that his weight
is my fault - new house, no fence, over worked, lazy, etc...

- 11 month GSD - Full German male currently involved in obedience,
protection and tracking training. This is our first foray into the working
dog world and I absolutely love it! Actually, I wish I found this years
ago. Studying what a working dog can do has filled many a night and, much
like me not knowing what I want to do when I grow up, I really don't know
which way to lead him. However, I'm thinking now something in the
Protection Sports world and Tracking (Paramedic/Fire background and an older
teen that wants to be a police officer).

Food

- The Golden Retriever is on an Adult Eukanuba diet, per our vet. I don't
know if I'm happy with this so I've been looking around. My concern is
this: For years the vet advocated Science Diet. Then on one visit this
changed to Eukanuba. I have to think - WHY? Why would they change foods?
First I think money, then I also think quality. So, I'm on the fence. I
love the vet. My family (sister and parents) have been going there for
years.

- The GSD has skin issues. We've checked with the breeder and there is no
real history of allergies in the pedigree. His mom has developed allergies
only after being retired from breeding and adopted by a family in Canada (no
finger pointing being done). None of the siblings are having issues. The
breeder is a strict Royal Canin user. Our boy developed scratching issues
even though he continued to eat what he was eating when we picked him up -
Large Breed Puppy. His scratching issues seemed worse in the winter - while
inside. Regardless, our Vet changed us from Royal Canin Large Breed Puppy
to Eukanuba KO (kangaroo) to rule out food allergies. To date (over two
months), on the new food, nothing has really changed. His skin is somewhat
flaky, red and has bumps that are not normal. One day he seemingly wants to
rip through his skin - the next he is content - again, unchanged since
starting the food. The vet indicates that it may take three months to have
the ability to figure out what is going on.

Currently

I've been at this all day - investigating foods and diets and I've not come
to a conclusion. For every plus there's a minus - perceived or real. This
can translate to: For every person that loves raw there is one that opposes
raw. I will continue to research and watch this list to form an opinion.

Thanks for having me in this group. Please excuse any stupid questions I
may provide!

--
Dave

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10b. Re: Typical Human
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

Dave,
I once had a teacher who told me, if you have a question that requires an answer, then it is not stupid, so ask away, anything here that you need to know, we do not judge here. There are people who are here with strong opinions, but there are also alot of people here who will give you so much education, backed with experience, and personal knowledge, and for me, you can't beat that with a stick.
Now, for every one that has an opinion for or against raw, yes, you will find a vet that is always against, because their training and background was funded for and by dog food companies. And to this day, and I still ask vet techs, that are in schools where I get meat at, there is no real nutritional training for vets.
My vet down the street here, really nice guy, convinced dogs are omnivores, and I know, mine are carnivores, and for most, that is a matter of opinion, but anyway, he's still a nice guy, and a great vet, sells Science diet. He knows all my animals are on raw. Lectures on how they need veggies and stuff, and then says what a great job I am doing. (my dogs don't get veggies unless I don't want mine!) So, he says mine are very healthy, and yet they are raw fed in a way he doesn't advocate. But healthy just the same. And he will stay our vet, because, he is a good vet, when we need one.
Nine times out of ten, and mostly ten times out of ten, when you talk to someone else about this form of feeding, unless you are talking to one of us here, you are going to run up against some form of oposition. This is a given, so if that is your reason for not doing the switch, I'm sorry, you never will.
Do your research. Read the books, my easiest suggestion is Tom Lonsdales, Work Wonders, it's fast, and free online if you're computer savy, (I'm not). It explains how easy this is, on the prey model raw way. How nothing added is needed, how the animals get all they need this way. How it has been done this way in the wild for hundreds of years.
My own experience, I have two great danes, 16 months old, sibblings, came to me with rashes, and switched over to raw instantly, I did this for many reasons, mainly danes are nortorious for not living long. The rash was gone in two days, no more itching, and I have never had to use flea products either, I'm not saying I won't have too, I think this is just a plus. All our other dogs before raw, have had so many health issues, including cancer and bloat, and never lived very long. I am hoping to do it different this time. My aunt recently passed and we now have her pomchi, and I am doing the raw diet with her on a tiny scale, and glad to say she's loving it.:) So, no matter how you do it, it can be done, you just have to decide it's the right thing for you. And for your dogs. For my husband and I it's the only way, and for now, until we have a really good reason not to, we are staying with this. Our dogs are heathly and happy, no vet visits, no allergies, no dental
problems, and for me, that's worth it. In my humble opinion.
Your vet is selling a commercial food, he gets PAID to sell. For no other reason than that. He will recommend whatever food is in his office that he is getting paid to sell. He makes no money off you when your dogs are healthy, and you only come in once a year for vacines, and maybe not even for that if you do your own. So, the better you do for your dogs, the worse your vet does. Get the picture now? Not that any vet wants our dogs to be sick, but really, they don't know anything about the raw diet. If they did, they would recommend it to all the people out there, like the ones who write books about it.
And for the recommending waiting three monthes to wait for your poor dog to find out IF he will get better or not.... SWITCH HIM TO RAW NOW!
You will know within days, I did, that this is working for your dogs. You will see the change in attitude, skin condition, teeth, everything will be better, I would be willing to bet you a whole chicken! (and that's what you should start with too)
I never just fed what any vet told me (I didn't always do what mom said either, always needed to do my research) to any ways, I always did some research, always wanted to know what was in the food being recommended. And if your dogs not responding, the food isn't working, because that should happen quickly IMHO.
Read the book, read the archives they sent you when you joined this list, it's so good, and look at the menu's your dogs are big enough, to do chicken halfs. With the bones, and the innards, for a few weeks this is all you will need to start your dogs off. Take the leap, it's a big one, I know, but you will be so much happier, and your dogs, they will be so much healthier:)
Good luck, I'm sure you will do fine.
Jeni
owned, operated, and often tricked, by my two danes, Zeus and Zena, and our little Daisy, and the cat Lucky, who's just Lucky we let him live here!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: Typical Human
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 10:07 pm ((PDT))

O.M.G. Dave!
Time to be the unusual human.
Give your dogs a chicken!!
You'll never regret it if you just DO IT NOW!
You will regret waiting if you take more time to faffle around with
kibble.
There's plenty of time to educate yourself while your dogs are reaping
the benefits of a species appropriate whole prey model diet.
This list is nearly 10,000 members strong and sees, on average, over
3,300 messages a month. The questions asked here, often very similar
ones multiple times a day, are always answered - all of us here know
that it takes individualized support and reassurance to go against the
tide of mediocrity and misinformation thats 'out there' and do the
right thing for our dogs.
Give raw the 3 months the vet told you was needed for the kibble to
work. Your dogs have waited years of their lives for kibble to work
for them.
Please.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Greetings.
>
> I'm new to the list today. <snip>
> Thanks for having me in this group. Please excuse any stupid
questions I
> may provide!
> --
> Dave

Messages in this topic (4)
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10d. Re: Typical Human
Posted by: "borntolose1945" edefreedom1945@sympatico.ca borntolose1945
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:17 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Teetz" <dteetz@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings.
Thanks for having me in this group. Please excuse any stupid
questions I
> may provide!

> Dave

Hi Dave the only stupid question is the one that is not asked.
Welcome to this site hope it helps you to make some wise choices and
be educated enough to feel good about your choices. Edith

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: How do you figure
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:12 pm ((PDT))

Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, I should have mentioned also, my cat is a kitten, 10 months
old. When do I consider her a cat? 1 year?
*****
I dunno.
At a year, probably, based on what I quickly googled. Doesn't matter
though when cathood is actually bestowed on the kitten, you feed a
kitten the same way. If you have no idea what the kitten will grow
herself into, simply pick a weight you think might apply and take a
percentage of that.

OTOH, I just sort of settled on four ounces a day for my cat, when I
got her at 12 weeks, and it's worked out fine. If she gets to looking
rounder than I prefer, I just cut back some til she looks "right"
again.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

"darkstardog" <darkstardog@...> wrote:
>> Sorry, but you need more information to say that a raw diet is not
> higher than kibble. You can't compare percent protein directly
between
> raw meat and kibble.
*****
And gosh, since this is a list devoted to the care and feeding of RAW
protein, relating RAW protein to cooked protein is irrelevant. We
are feeding raw, we are taking in raw terms.

If you want to make comparisons between raw and cooked protein,
please convert your cooked protein numbers to raw numbers so that we
may realistically review them. Asking us to convert raw numbers to
meet a cooked perspective is operating on the assumption that raw
numbers are somehow inadequate. They are not.

You want to compare, get your numbers in order and come back. I
think that's fair enough.
Thanks!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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12b. Re: labwork
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 9:55 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "darkstardog" <darkstardog@> wrote:
> >> Sorry, but you need more information to say that a raw diet is not
> > higher than kibble. You can't compare percent protein directly
> between
> > raw meat and kibble.
> *****
> And gosh, since this is a list devoted to the care and feeding of RAW
> protein, relating RAW protein to cooked protein is irrelevant. We
> are feeding raw, we are taking in raw terms.
>
> If you want to make comparisons between raw and cooked protein,
> please convert your cooked protein numbers to raw numbers so that we
> may realistically review them. Asking us to convert raw numbers to
> meet a cooked perspective is operating on the assumption that raw
> numbers are somehow inadequate. They are not.

It was Sandee who was making a comparison between the amount of
protein in raw meat versus cooked kibble.

If you want to see numbers in a different form, I'll give it a try.
For raw meat, an example is beef brisket which has 18% protein (the
number Sandee gave) and 22% `fat in the USDA database entry. Let's use
a 50 lb dog as an example. If it were fed 2% of its body weight, it
might get a pound of brisket as a day's food. That amount of brisket
would contain 81 grams of protein.

For comparison, an example is Canidae kibble with 24% protein. Their
recommendation for a 50 lb dog is 2 cups per day. According to the
information on their website, 2 cups would contain 54 grams of protein.

Sandee said that a raw diet with 18% protein was no higher in protein
than kibble. But in this example, the protein a dog would get from a
day of eating brisket is quite a bit higher than the protein from a
day of eating kibble.

(Note that I'm not saying this is a bad thing.)

Marty

Messages in this topic (7)
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13a. Getting ready to take the plunge!
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:17 am ((PDT))

Posted by: "erica" ericagordon@sbcglobal.net:
Once Sophie finishes her kibble we will be switching
her to raw! We know not to mix the 2!

Why would it be a problem to mix them?

Lori

Messages in this topic (4)
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14. Thank You!
Posted by: "Linda" aumicapa@peoplepc.com micap12000
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:17 am ((PDT))

I just joined this group a few days ago. I checked out the BARF diet a
few years ago but continued to feed the k word. I have a 4 yr old
female GSD and an old beat up tom cat. I have read about a hundred
posts and about a dozen web sites. Well I switched them to raw
yesterday. Ginger (the dog) would not eat today, she ate some grass,
threw up got real excited about feeling better and put away a leg
quarter, a wing and some organ meat. Nap time! lol
I enjoy this group and all the great information I have received from
all you raw feeders. Ginger has skin problems, colitis, is overweight
and licks her feet all the time. Hoping that getting rid of kibble will
clear some of it up. My vet said allergies and wanted to give her
steroids. Wish me luck.
Linda, Ginger and Screech

Messages in this topic (1)
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