[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11784

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding Squirrel
From: woofwoofgrrl

2a. Re: labwork
From: Casey Post

3a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: Getting ready to take the plunge!
From: Lyse Garant
4b. Getting ready to take the plunge!
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: frozen burning more calories
From: Eileen Dover

6a. Re: Huma Risks
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: Huma Risks
From: Theresa

7a. Re: Squid?
From: Bearhair
7b. Re: Squid?
From: temy1102
7c. Re: Squid?
From: costrowski75
7d. Re: Squid?
From: Lyse Garant
7e. Re: Squid?
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: picky eater
From: wenigj
8b. Re: picky eater
From: Linda

9a. I wonder if I am doing the right thing........
From: Linda Edgington
9b. Re: I wonder if I am doing the right thing........
From: Giselle

10a. Re: Non Poopers
From: mob1043

11.1. Re: Fish
From: mob1043
11.2. Re: Fish
From: costrowski75
11.3. Re: Fish
From: Lyse Garant
11.4. Re: Fish
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Needing help on my second night of raw
From: Bearhair

13a. Re: (Giselle) Needing help on my second night of raw
From: Eve

Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding Squirrel
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:04 pm ((PDT))

Bill,

Catching up on email so someone else may have already asked...have you
had any trouble with your dogs picking up parasites or other diseases
from eating the fresh killed squirrels? One of my Whippets is quite a
squirrel catcher and I've wondered if I should just let him enjoy his
kill or not?

His most recent kill he would have had to leave behind no matter what
tho! We were visiting my college Alma Mater when he ran off, disappeared
for longer than I was comfortable with and then reappeared with a
squirrel in his mouth! LOL! OOPS! He caught me a souvinier of my visit!
:) I think I would have preferred a new sweatshirt! I wouldn't let him
take it in the car - although I'm sure it would have made the long drive
home much more enjoyable from his perspective!

Christine

carnesbill wrote:
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "akita6691" <kyharris@...> wrote:
>> What's the word on squirrel? Thanks.
>
> My dogs AND cats eat squirrels at every opportunity. Of course they
> have to catch them first but they do pretty regularly. The cats seem
> to be better than the dogs at catching them but they usually only eat
> half a squirrel and a dog will eat the other half.

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:07 pm ((PDT))

> *** Carrie has been overwhelmed with personal matters lately, but
> I'll drop in quickly to say that your vet needs to put down the
> crack pipe.

And *this* is why I love Carrie...

Casey

Messages in this topic (18)
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3a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:16 pm ((PDT))

"nathaliebiron" <nathaliebiron@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone!!! Can you give me some advices. I'll have my mastiff
> puppy next year and I want to be ready !!
*****
Excuse me...NEXT YEAR?
Like five and a half months from now next year?
Feeding a species appropriate raw diet is not nearly so hard as to
require five plus months of preparation. You will drive yourself to
distraction, fussing so furiously this far away from the big day.

I recommend you use this lead time to become completely familiar
with the list archives:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

You should also investigate
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net
http://rawlearning.com
http://www.rawmeatybones.com

And because raising a pup right is about more than just a good diet,
you should join one or both of the following and read their files
and recommended links as well:

jstsayno2vaccs@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: jstsayno2vaccs-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: jstsayno2vaccs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

TruthAboutVaccines@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: TruthAboutVaccines-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: TruthAboutVaccines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

>From: "nathaliebiron" <nathaliebiron@yahoo.ca>

>Hi everyone!!! Can you give me some advices. I'll have my mastiff
>puppy next year and I want to be ready !! Is somebody who have a giant
>breed, how did you start, what did you give your puppy (ex.: chicken
>neck, chicken leg... etc)

Same way you would feed any other puppy...lots and lots of meat, a little
edible bone and a bit of organs! Easy!!!

A couple of recent weaning/puppy feeding messages.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847

Do a search in the archives where you will find lots to occupy you for the
next few months!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Getting ready to take the plunge!
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

My common sense answer to this PLEASE FEEL FREE to feed a partial raw diet...OK all of you experts and fanatics, who of you will deny that a partial raw diet is worse than a 0% raw diet????

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:

> Isn't there something to be gained from some raw meat, for those
of us who are not going to be feeding a full raw diet? I am asking
because I don't want to give partial raw, if it would be harmful, and
I doubt my current lifestyle would allow full raw feeding.
****
I suspect it makes the human feel a lot less guilty about feeding
kibble. Too bad it does little to mitigate the damage that any
carbohydrate-based pseudofood does.
Chris O

Lyse

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Getting ready to take the plunge!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
> My common sense answer to this PLEASE FEEL FREE to feed a partial
raw diet...OK all of you experts and fanatics, who of you will deny
that a partial raw diet is worse than a 0% raw diet????
*****
I see nothing sensible about continuing to feed kibble when easy,
available, affordable and healthy alternatives have been provided.

If you think feeding a species appropriate diet is the realm of
fanaticism, then you have not been paying much attention to the
broad range of personalities and lifestyles that support raw feeding
on this list. I would suggest using the term fanatic diminishes the
often life-saving results of raw food.

The rawfeeding list was not created to discuss the relative merits
of kibble, or to provide halfway measures. One would hope the
subscribers are here because they feed raw, because they want to
learn more about feeding raw, because they want to provide better
nutrition for their domestic carnivores. If a person has subscribed
to the list to learn how to add raw food to an existing kibble diet,
then perhaps a wrong choice has been made.

This is a great place to learn about feeding raw. If that is not
one's goal, then there are other lists available.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: frozen burning more calories
Posted by: "Eileen Dover" millsmontreal@gmail.com wonderpei
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

Depends I think. In the Winter I try to never serve frozen meat
because I fear it could help make a dog hypothermic, so I always feed
room temp meat in the Winter months.... although the Inuit feed frozen
fish to their dogs all the time. If you live in a temperate climate,
I can't see it harming a dog really.
Cheers
MM

>
> i've been searching the archives with no definitive answer for my
> question:
> feeding frozen meat takes more calories to process because it must
> first be warmed by the body, is this extra use of calories significant?
>
> thanks in advance,
> scherzo
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Huma Risks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:25 pm ((PDT))

Eve <loulou_bean@...> wrote:

> So here's my question--I am so used to giving my dog
> kisses on the mouth--I don't know if anyone thinks it
> gross, but I just love him to bits.
*****
I doubt this is as uncommon as you think. We're all pretty nuts
about our dogs.

> I don't know if this is a stupid question, but, now
> that he's on the raw diet, should I not do that any
> longer? Can I get sick?
*****
Why would his mouth be any dirtier now than before? Kibble is no
paragon of virtue! I've no doubt that teeth and gums kept clean and
healthy by appropriate food provide fewer pockets of bacterial
overgrowth than does a mouth of leftover kibble slop. Talk about
euw gross.

If you are worried about getting sick (and it would a worry, not a
threat) simply wipe your dog's mouth when he's done eating. And if
his ears worry you, wipe them as well.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Huma Risks
Posted by: "Theresa" bluerose4109@yahoo.com bluerose4109
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:02 pm ((PDT))

I have not yet begun feeding raw, but I am interested in learning more, so I joined the group.

I can not offer you any words of wisdom from experience as a raw feeder, but as a dog kisser I do have some thoughts.

I work in the medical field and there is actually an antibiotoic found naturally in a dogs saliva. Not so in the human mouth. So if you are concerned about catching something from your dog:dont. Althought it is possible, it is very highly improbable. It is much more likely that you will catch something from kissing a human than a dog. So, my advice is Pucker up to the dogs without worry, but after kissing a human, brush your teeth and rinse your mouth.

Theresa

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:02 pm ((PDT))

tammy wrote:

>> i imagine ink is okay for dogs to eat, since it's served in fancy
>> restaurants for people to eat.

Maggie wrote:

>So are onions and chocolate but I wouldn't feed either to my dogs...

And now, an example of a helpful response:

According to Oceans Alive, their "data indicate that contaminant levels in
[Longfin Squid and Northern Shortfin Squid] do not warrant a consumption
advisory. Therefore adults and children can safely eat this fish at least
once a week."

However, "There is insufficient data on contaminant levels in [Market Squid].
In this case, EPA and FDA recommend that people not eat the same kind of fish
more than once a week, to protect against excessive intake of mercury. "

They have pictures so you can identify the squid on hand.

>http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=fishpage&group=Squid

Hormel Foods (of all places!) teaches us that Squid Ink is "[a] deep black
substance extracted from the ink sack of an ocean squid, a sea dweller that
is also known as Calamari. The Cuddlefish, which also has ink sacks, is
another species living in the ocean that is similar and related to the Squid.
Both species use the ink as a means to escape predators, emitting this dark
cloudy substance as danger approaches in hopes of intimidating the oncoming
danger. The ink from Squid or Cuddlefish is used as a food coloring and
flavoring, providing a very dark black color and a salty tasting flavor to
foods such as pasta or rice. It is also served as a condiment, first being
dried in an oven, crumbled into tiny particles, seasoned with salt and then
used on a variety of foods. Squid ink can be extracted from fresh squid or it
is packaged and available in some Italian food stores. To color pasta or
rice, add the ink to the water as the food cooks."
>http://www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=37823

Since squid can be eaten raw (ala sushi), I think that feeding a squidling to
your dog would be quite a fun thing to catch on video! Especially if your dog
likes to toss their food onto their head!

This concludes the squidgy class of the evening.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (15)
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7b. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))

that's true, but then again onions and chocolate are not part of a
prey-model diet. if squid = prey, then ink = delicious. but on that
note, is there any part of a prey animal that should not be eaten? i
mean, for humans when eating poisonous snakes, the head and guts
should be avoided. do dogs naturally avoid them too due to their
acute senses? curious.

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (15)
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7c. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

"temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
>
> that's true, but then again onions and chocolate are not part of a
> prey-model diet. if squid = prey, then ink = delicious. but on
that
> note, is there any part of a prey animal that should not be eaten?
*****
I am sorry to be a partypooper, but arguing about what parts of a
squid are valuable to a dog is like arguing about the quantity of
angels dancing on the head of that proverbial pin.

The likelihood that a wolf would find itself in the position to catch
a squid (the notion is preposterous) is slim to none. If a wolf was
somehow on a beach onto which a squid had washed up dead, the
question might be not would the wolf eat the squid but rather would
the wolf roll on the dead squid.

If one is feeding whole prey, I guess the first thing is to determine
if what you got there is prey. If it's not, end of discussion. If
it is, feed it. Let the dog decide. And report back in with
results. Inquiring minds want to know.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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7d. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:42 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

OK, dogs are not shark.

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
>
> that's true, but then again onions and chocolate are not part of a
> prey-model diet. if squid = prey, then ink = delicious. but on
that
> note, is there any part of a prey animal that should not be eaten?
*****
I am sorry to be a partypooper, but arguing about what parts of a
squid are valuable to a dog is like arguing about the quantity of
angels dancing on the head of that proverbial pin.

The likelihood that a wolf would find itself in the position to catch
a squid (the notion is preposterous) is slim to none. If a wolf was
somehow on a beach onto which a squid had washed up dead, the
question might be not would the wolf eat the squid but rather would
the wolf roll on the dead squid.

If one is feeding whole prey, I guess the first thing is to determine
if what you got there is prey. If it's not, end of discussion. If
it is, feed it. Let the dog decide. And report back in with
results. Inquiring minds want to know.

Chris O

Lyse

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Messages in this topic (15)
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7e. Re: Squid?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
> OK, dogs are not shark.
>
*****
By golly, I think that says it all.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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8a. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "wenigj" wenigj@aol.com wenigj
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:02 pm ((PDT))

"I once gave my Rott. mix a raw
> beef bone and she had major accidents in the house for a week, so I'm
> nervous!"
> Becky

My 10 month old pup did fine with everything, but I moved really
slowly...chicken for about 2 weeks, then pork, then beef, etc because
my older girl was a little more sensitive to the changes. All in all
we had some upset (one day I think, with my older girl only) the first
week and I was almost ready to quit, then with advice from this group
and small adjustments, it all worked out pretty quickly. My pup is
still a more cautious eater, and slower to finish even tho they both
are fed about the same amounts.
If your pups have problems, post on the list. There are some very
experienced and knowledgeable people on this list who try to answer
questions and help each person find a remedy that is usually pretty
straightforward. I was nervous to start this, but now it going well
and pretty easy to do. You can start simple and as you learn more
about your rawfeeding and the needs of your dogs you can make the
changes that make sense for you...all while having this wonderful
resource to guide you thru the process.

Jill W

Messages in this topic (20)
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8b. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "Linda" aumicapa@peoplepc.com micap12000
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>Hi Becky,

First 2 days with my GSD I sprinkled with garlic and seared. Worked
great.
Linda and the kids
> Hi Becky,
>
> Warm it, slice into the meat, sprinkle with Parmesan!
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "Becky Brooks (Marsh)" <kidcreations1@...>
>
>
> We are new to rawfeeding and have just given our 4 dogs their first
> chicken leg quarters today. One ate it right away, one ate it after
> about 1 hour of picking at it, burying it, and digging it up again,
> and two of the dogs (each 10 months old) just licked theirs and didn't
> know what to do. How do we encourage those two to eat? Any advice is
> appreciated!
>

Messages in this topic (20)
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9a. I wonder if I am doing the right thing........
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:03 pm ((PDT))

Since I have started raw feeding about 8 days ago, everything seemed to be doing ok, but my dog Gizzy is picking on my cat really bad. I am worried about her. So far I have been feeding chicken and pork, and I can't find any organs, anywhere in this town. So is she ok, just feeding what I am feeding her? And whats up with my dog?

Linda

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Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: I wonder if I am doing the right thing........
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Linda!
Is Sass still trying to steal his food? ; )

Raw food is perceived by dogs (rightly so) as of higher value than
kibble. So, he may be protecting his cherished food from the feline
predator. Maybe he never viewed her as a rival before.

I'd feed them separately, each in a crate or confined somehow, so that
neither has to feel in competition with the other for the good stuff.

In most supermarkets, you can get little tubs of chicken liver and
packs of mixed heart and gizzards. While not the epitome of organ
variety, they *are all organs and can satisfy the requirements. Ask
the meat 'man' in the back what days they are usually available. If
you buy whole chickens, usually the heart, gizzard and liver are
packed inside the cavity.
TC
Giselle

> Since I have started raw feeding about 8 days ago, everything seemed
to be doing ok, but my dog Gizzy is picking on my cat really bad. I am
worried about her. So far I have been feeding chicken and pork, and I
can't find any organs, anywhere in this town. So is she ok, just
feeding what I am feeding her? And whats up with my dog?
>
> Linda

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Non Poopers
Posted by: "mob1043" ynotbeastar@marykay.com mob1043
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Bearhair <bearhair@...> wrote:
>
> You wrote:
>
> >My 2 bullmastiff pups aren't pooping. I have seen some chalky and
I know that means to
> >much bone, but nothing like I am used to with kibble of course.
What can I give them to
> >loosen them up a bit? My one BM takes her time eating and her
sister gobbles it up
> >practically whole.
> >
> >Michele
>
> How long have you been on raw? What are you feeding them?
>
> Do you walk them and have the opportunity to SEE them have a bowel
movement
> or do they have the run of the yard and you look around every day
or two?
>
> Poop from raw-fed dogs are smaller, denser, and turn white and
disintegrate
> in about a day in the sun. Unless the only way they can poop is
with you
> present . . . they're doing it and you're seeing the benefits of
feeding food
> that is almost wholly digestible!
>
> Chalky poop is only a valid diagnostic tool for bone percentage
when it is
> observed immediately upon it seeing the light of day - a few hours
later and
> a normal poop will have already started turning white and chalky.
>
> Lora
> Evanston, IL
>
thank you for your response. My dogs have a yard that they go potty
in and I have noticed some white chalky, but nothing like what I was
used to.

I know it is not unusual they go less, they certainly don't seem
uncomfortable at all. It just seemed so odd that I needed to ask.

Thank you again,
Michele

Messages in this topic (4)
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11.1. Re: Fish
Posted by: "mob1043" ynotbeastar@marykay.com mob1043
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "mob1043" <ynotbeastar@> wrote:
> >
> > The fish thing did not go well by either dogs or cats any
suggestions
> on how I can slip it
> > in...just a little added with meat meal perhaps?
> *****
> Fish is not necessarily welcomed; don't take it personally. Neither
> species needs fish so if you're offering a good amount of protein
> variety you should not despair if your pets refuse fish.
>
> Yes, adding a little fish to a meal you know to be successful might
> help.
> Chris O
>
Thank you for all of your suggestions. what I meant by it didn't go
well meant simply they ignored it...I mean like the white elephant in
the room ignored it-lol.

I will try as you say a little bit in their reg. meal or giving
without snacks for the next meal. It was my understanding it was an
important addition to their diet. If it is not, then I won't worry
about it. I do have to say my cats turned their nose at it as well.

Michele

Messages in this topic (138)
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11.2. Re: Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

"mob1043" <ynotbeastar@...> wrote:
It was my understanding it was an
> important addition to their diet. If it is not, then I won't worry
> about it. I do have to say my cats turned their nose at it as well.
*****
Look at it this way: if you have access to and are feeding if not
regularly at least sometimes, or at least are thinking seriously
about feeding chicken, beef, pork, lamb, goat, rabbit, turkey, and/or
duck, quail, emu, bison, ostrich, venison and any of the other
protein options not mentioned, fish is just one more of many choices
and your pets are NOT hurting for the lack if it if you choose to
pass it by.

If however you are feeding chicken and beyond that protein variety is
pretty darn hard to find, then yes, you should consider finding at
least one species of fish your dog and cats will eat.

My guess is your options are somewhere comfortably in the middle.

If you can get high quality fish into your animals, by all means feed
it. But don't lose sleep over it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (138)
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11.3. Re: Fish
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:37 pm ((PDT))

all good all good, but what in your message addresses the cooked aspect of the canned items, and what happens to kids who repent???

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: "mob1043" <ynotbeastar@...> wrote:
It was my understanding it was an
> important addition to their diet. If it is not, then I won't worry
> about it. I do have to say my cats turned their nose at it as well.
*****
Look at it this way: if you have access to and are feeding if not
regularly at least sometimes, or at least are thinking seriously
about feeding chicken, beef, pork, lamb, goat, rabbit, turkey, and/or
duck, quail, emu, bison, ostrich, venison and any of the other
protein options not mentioned, fish is just one more of many choices
and your pets are NOT hurting for the lack if it if you choose to
pass it by.

If however you are feeding chicken and beyond that protein variety is
pretty darn hard to find, then yes, you should consider finding at
least one species of fish your dog and cats will eat.

My guess is your options are somewhere comfortably in the middle.

If you can get high quality fish into your animals, by all means feed
it. But don't lose sleep over it.
Chris O

Lyse

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Messages in this topic (138)
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11.4. Re: Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:49 pm ((PDT))

Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
> all good all good, but what in your message addresses the cooked
aspect of the canned items,
*****
I don't know that canned items need to be discussed. If they're fish
and the dog likes them, feed them. If they're canned and the dog does
not, don't. Whether we should feed canned fish regularly, or
sometimes or not at all is a different discussion, don't you think?

and what happens to kids who repent???
*****
Well heck! Whatever they're repenting, they should have a second
chance.

What might they be repenting?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (138)
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12a. Re: Needing help on my second night of raw
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))

Eve wrote:

>So following last night's event where I started my 17
>lb pekingese on a slab of steak (realizing it was too
>small as he scarfed it down whole),

Then that would be a medallion, not a slab.

Okay, you've missed some basics, so we'll have to catch you up fast. here's
the recommended high points:

1. Amount: 2 - 4 % of your dog's ideal adult body weight, depending on his
activity and metabolism, per day. Watch for body changes (ribs, waist, etc.)
over the next few weeks to determine what the right amount is for him. For
those mathematically challenged, 2% of 17 pounds is about 5.5 ounces and 4%
is 11 ounces.

2. Throw away all kibble and canned dog food.

3. Purchase a whole chicken or leg quarters from the grocery store, ensuring
that they are NOT enhanced with a salt solution or broth (retained water is
okay). Cut up the whole chicken into quarters. (Note: chicken is chosen only
for availability and price - it has no special properties).

4. If the chicken quarter is approximately the appropriate weight for a meal,
hand it to the dog, then step back and occupy yourself with something else
instead of staring at the dog - it will lessen the likelihood that he'll try
to swallow the entire thing in one gulp, thinking that you're about to take
it away.

5. If the chicken quarter is not enough for one meal, feed more. If the
chicken quarter is too much for one meal, either cut it up further, feed it
as is until the dog is full (this works if your dog self-regulates its
intake), or feed it until the dog eats an appropriate portion and then trade
the dog for the remaining meat using his favorite treat. If you can.

6. Continue to feed chicken for a week or so, until you are comfortable with
the concept and your dog is comfortable digesting it (you may see some loose
stool initially, but it should clear up before you proceed to the next step.
You will feed the entire chicken - meat, skin, and bones together. I rip the
excess fat off, when present in chunks, but don't get crazed about it. Take
all of the giblets (the stuff inside of the chicken) and freeze them for
later.

7. Slowly introduce another meat into the dog's meals. Pork is another
available and inexpensive option. Replace a portion of the chicken meat with
an equal amount of pork meat, increasing it each day. Continue to monitor
your comfort and his digestion. You can feed any pork as long as it is raw
and not enhanced with a salt solution or broth and not smoked or cured. Pork
chops (omit the bone), hunks of pork cut from a pork roast or pork shoulder,
etc.

8. When your dog is ready to eat full meals of pork, start adding pork bones.
Any bone that has been sawn is potentially sharp, so we prefer to feed the
bones within pork shoulders and other bone-in roasts, or pork ribs. Pork feet
are also tasty but ride the fence between a meal and a treat because there's
not much meat to them.

9. Now pull out those frozen giblets from the first week or two. Common items
include chicken necks, hearts, gizzard and liver. Out of these, liver is the
only item that is considered an "organ" for the purposes of raw feeding. The
rest is considered meat. In general, heart from any animal is quite rich, so
it's best to feed as a portion of a meal until you know how your dog's
digestion will react.

10. Introducing organ to the meal is done as you've already learned - a
little at a time, with monitoring. Some dogs hate the texture of thawed
liver, but will eat it frozen. Over time, your dog should be fed liver as
about 5% of its total intake (per month, per year, per lifetime), with other
organs making up another 5%. Other organs are identified using the "squidgy
rule" - if you touch and it feels "squidgy," it's an organ. They include
(depending on the animal) kidney, spleen, pancreas, reproductive organs,
lung, and brain. Heart, tongue, testicles, tails, feet, and heads are
considered meat.

11. After pork, you're free to pick another meat, just introduce it as you've
learned, a little at a time, with monitoring. Common choices include beef,
bison/buffalo, goat, lamb, mutton, veal, turkey, duck, goose, elk, venison,
fish, and rabbit. There are some additional rules for feeding wild game and
fish - keep reading the messages on the list and you'll pick those up, or ask
when you're ready.

12. Weight-bearing bones of large livestock (beef, bison, buffalo, elk,
venison, and possibly mutton) are stronger than your dog's teeth and will
break them. Depending on your dog, you can either trim the meat off and toss
the bone away, or feed the meat and bone together and remove the bone when
the meat is gone.

Returning to your post:

>he is giving half a chicken a try as we speak.

Okay, you've already fed steak, but stick with chicken now for awhile so it
will be easy to identify a problem if he has any digestive issues.

>I'm not sure what the deal is but he has been licking
>the chicken for the past 25 minutes, not really
>chewing into it. The only he thing he is chewing on is
>the skin, but not ingesting it. I feel like he has no
>idea what to do with it. He definitely is more
>interested in the skin than the meat.
>He he supposed to eat the skin?

He will, as soon as he learns how to do it. Give him time, and perhaps a
smaller portion of chicken. I recommend a thigh - good amount of meat and an
approachable bone.

>How do I get him to actually chew and ingest the meat?

Leave him alone, he'll figure it out.

>How long should every night's feeding take? I'm used
>to him eating within 5 minutes so I'm not sure what to
>do. Should I take the food up within a certain period
>of time?

Only if he's not really interested in it. Right now, he has to learn how to
eat real food.

>Also, should I keep the wings in tact? I thought I
>read that they could be a choking hazard.

Fed alone, to some dogs, they can be. Keep them attached and your dog will
chew off portions that he can swallow.

>And I think I'm looking at the chicken's ribs--they
>are pretty small and skinny--is this a choking hazard?

Only if you feed them to him one at a time.

>Is he supposed to chew and ingest the chicken ribs?

He will. Think about your dog as a mini-wolf. He would catch and kill the
chicken, then eat it. Period.

>I pulled the insides out of the chicken--You'll have
>to forgive me--I don't know what parts each is. They
>all kind of look the same. It just looks like kidney
>shaped pieces. There are a ton of them. How do I feed
>him the insides?

See Step 9 above.

>I've noticed after he chews on a beef bone (and he is
>now doing it again with the chicken)--he goes into his
>crate and lies on his side and scratches at it, growls
>and mushes his face on it. Is this normal behavior?
>What is it?

He's happy, is enjoying his food, and is delighted that he has such a smart
mom that's also a great hunter for the pack!

>One more thing...What is the best raw meaty bone for a
>pekingese? A few options would be great.

See Step 12. Over time, feed as many parts of as many animals as you can
comfortably and affordably obtain. There is no "best" part.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
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13a. Re: (Giselle) Needing help on my second night of raw
Posted by: "Eve" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

Giselle,
Thanks so much for all the advice. This has been a
bit stressful, but it seems to be getting better.
It's hard to find detailed info. about feeding, but it
really seems we have to figure it out as we go along.
Cutting ribbon strips into the chicken seems like a
great idea. Thanks for the help.
-Eve

--- Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Eve!
> Slowed him down a bit, did we? ; )
>
> He's new to raw, and its not shaped the way he's
> used to, nor is it of
> an easy size to scarf!
>
> We just need to give him a bit of help to figure out
> where to start
> chewing. Its good that he's working on the skin, it
> means he's not
> into giving up.
>
> As far as his antics with the chicken, who knows? It
> may just be his
> way of showing happiness, or frustration.
>
> Take the half chicken. I know, how to get it from
> him?! You know those
> squidgy things in the paper package you took out of
> the chicken? Offer
> him a chunk of heart or the gizzards, not the really
> squidgy red
> thing, thats liver and you should give him only a
> tiny bit at each
> meal. When you offer this special treat to him, lure
> him out of the
> crate and close the door. Put him outside if you
> need to, to get the
> chicken out of the crate.
>
> Take a pair of kitchen shears or a knife and cut
> into the meat, making
> ribbon like strips that are still attached to the
> bone. This will give
> him plenty of pieces to grab onto and chew. You
> could remove part of
> the skin, since he had a bit of trouble with it, but
> he'll learn how
> to deal with that soon, too. You can do this with
> each portion you
> give him, gradually ribboning less until he can
> figure out where to
> begin on his own.
>
> This should make it easier for him to figure the
> whole chewing thing
> out. Generally, you would want to take up the meal
> after 10-15 minutes
> or when you think he's had enough for a meal or when
> he walks away
> from it after eating all he wants. It really
> depends.
>
> As long as the wings are on the bird, they're OK to
> feed. Same with
> necks. If it isn't attached to a bigger portion, it
> encourages
> scarfing, and they could choke or have to hork up a
> whole uncrunched
> piece. The chicken ribs are OK, too. Same thing, if
> its attached to
> the bird, its good.
>
> The best raw meaty bone to feed any dog is one that
> is edible, or
> mostly so. This will vary with the size of the dog.
> Beef bones are
> referred to as tooth breakers, not good to feed.
> They are very dense,
> after all, they hold up a pretty huge critter! It is
> safe, however, to
> let your dog strip the meat from any bone that is
> too dense to
> consume, and then take it away.
> Its not that hard, really!
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > So following last night's event where I started my
> 17
> > lb pekingese on a slab of steak (realizing it was
> too
> > small as he scarfed it down whole), he is giving
> half
> > a chicken a try as we speak.
> <snip>
> I know it's only the first night,
> > but It doesn't seem as easy as everyone makes it
> out
> > to be;)
> >
> > Eve, NY
>
>

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