[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11780

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: brown rice
From: Lyse Garant

2a. Re: runny eyes
From: Vicki Tobler

3a. Re: goose
From: Bearhair

4a. Re: Lethargic dogs
From: Bearhair

5a. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
From: streakinsixx
5b. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
From: carolyn arnold

6a. Re: labwork
From: mikkeny
6b. Re: labwork
From: carnesbill

7a. Loose stool problem-again!
From: chele519
7b. Re: Loose stool problem-again!
From: Casey Post
7c. Re: Loose stool problem-again!
From: chele519

8a. starting GSD pup on raw
From: Michael Moore
8b. Re: starting GSD pup on raw
From: kahonebay
8c. Re: starting GSD pup on raw
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: behaviour changes after eating certain foods ? & itching
From: Andrea
9b. Re: behaviour changes after eating certain foods ? & itching
From: leanne rose

10a. Work Wonders book
From: Lee Schlesinger
10b. Re: Work Wonders book
From: Andrea
10c. Re: Work Wonders book
From: carnesbill

11a. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
From: ptrsrgnt

12a. Re: Venison and goopy poo
From: Andrea

13a. Re: Agression
From: Debi C

14a. Cushings Disease
From: Mal Firth
14b. Re: Cushings Disease
From: lizwehrli

15a. Re: Old Lady!!
From: Andrea

Messages
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1a. Re: brown rice
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 6:28 am ((PDT))

rice bowl plants....hilarious! thanks again...
Lyse

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Lyse!
*No *Problem.
Well, *if he weren't full of elk, or rabbit, or deer, he might. But
who would cook it for him? Rice bowl plants are mighty thin on the
ground in the forest. ; )
Giselle

Giselle, Laurie, Chris O.... what does NP mean?
Also, if a wolf came across a bowl of brown rice, would he not eat it
readily???
I ask myself these questions while walking my precious terrier. Thank
you all so much for all advice!
Lyse

Hi, Eve!
You're very welcome.(YVW, for Lyse)

Well, dogs, like people, are creatures of habit. If he is used to
gulping his kibble, which doesn't require any effort, he might not
slow down any for any other food, either. UNLESS, it is Bigger than
his head. That's what I'd recommend you feed. Something that he *has
to tear smaller chunks off of.

Reserve a very tasty hunk of food, and when you think he should be
done, put it right in front of his nose, and lure his head away from
his meal while he tries to eat it. Take the leftover meal up with your
other hand while he is still engrossed in getting to the yummy treat.

Get whole chickens and cut them into halves. He will start chewing
where ever he can grab a tooth hold and the portion will be big enough
that he has to work hard at getting chunks off to swallow.

If you're feeding through whole chickens, some meals will have more
bone in it than others. Thats OK. Meatymeat meals, like beef roast or
heart, or beef ribs where he can't eat the bone, will be fine, too.
Breast of lamb has lots of soft bone. Pork shoulders or fresh hams
will be huge! You could cut big whacks of meatymeat off as meals, and
allow him to chew around the edges of the big jointed bone. : )
Giselle

> Giselle,
> Thanks so much for your detailed response. He seems to
> be doing ok.
> Just a couple of follow up questions:
>
> I am going to feed him again tomorrow night. Do you
> think there might be a chance he would still try and
> gulp up the big piece? And how do I take the piece
> away from him when I think he's had enough? I think he
> might get very territorial over it.
>
> So basically you're saying to give him a bigger than
> normal piece of meat and I just should judge visually
> when he's had the appropriate amount for his size and
> take it away?
>
> And at the end of the week I will try a quarter of a
> chicken with the bone as well, but with his track
> record this far, I am very nervous he may try and
> scarf the bone down whole. Anything to avoid this?
>
> And how many times a week should I give him bone? a
> couple?
>
> Thanks
> Eve, NY

Lyse

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: runny eyes
Posted by: "Vicki Tobler" weimgirl16@comcast.net weimgirl16
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 6:29 am ((PDT))

Laura :) Thanks I didn't know this...nor may I add did the vet tell me this,
when he diagnosed one of her siblings. They have round worms and have had
their first dose of meds and will get their second this Friday.

Vicki T

_____

From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Laura Wilburn
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:11 AM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re:runny eyes

You may want to test for round worm as this can cause runny eyes. You
mentioned your dog is a puppy. Just a thought.......
Laura

Laura Wilburn

www.pathfindergoldens.com

---------------------------------
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when.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: goose
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

Sue wrote:

>Hi, been feeding raw for about 2 1/2 months, dogs love it, I love
>it. I have 2 dogs, one is one year old the other is 9 yrs old. The
>older dog has always had a sensitive stomach so he is eating chicken,
>small amounts of liver and occasional raw eggs and salmon oil caps.

What exactly happens when you slowly introduce a new meat to him? A
chicken-only diet is nutritionally limited.

> I saw a frozen free range goose
>for 79 cents a lb and thought that sounded pretty good. Then I
>thawed it out and there was a lot more bird than I expected. The
>bones are hard to get through and there's a lot of fat. I trimmed
>some of the fat, it just seemed very rich to me. Do I introduce this
>slowly as a new protein or do I just give him the whole bird for 20
>minutes or so and take it away.

Great price and accurate assessment. You know the answer to this one - as
with all new protein sources, introduce slowly for best results.

>And since this is fowl can I give a
>small portion to the older dog. I see that the goose meat is red as
>opposed to chicken and turkey, so that's my concern with the older
>dog. Just want to be sure I'm doing the right thing for the boys, so
>I would appreciate some guidance.

Yes, goose and duck have red meat . . . let's talk more about your 9 year
old.

>Oh one more question, I have a friend that is willing to keep the
>deer innards when he goes hunting, what shall I have him save for
>me?

Absolutely positively. Tell him to skip the intestines and the bladder.
Ideally, he would keep them chilled along with the meat after field dressing.
Then I recommend you freeze them rock solid for three weeks to kill any
internal parasites.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Lethargic dogs
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

Karen wrote:

>My daughter switched her dogs (German Shep and corgi) to raw serveral months ago. They are adjusting ok to the raw diet, however, she says that they have lost their energy. Neither dog is as energetic or as playful as they used to be.
>
> She feeds a variety of foods, stayed on chicken for a month to start out, but has added beef and pork. They eat ok, their stools are ok, but they are no longer active dogs. Seems she is balancing out the organs bone and meet part, as far as I can tell. Can anyone thing of something that she may be doing wrong or something that she needs to add?

Inquire about the amount she is feeding, as a percentage of their ideal adult
body weight.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
Posted by: "streakinsixx" streakinsixx@yahoo.com streakinsixx
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 6:44 am ((PDT))

-Just my two cents, but a reputable breeder should NEVER let a pup go
before 8 weeks.

Good luck.
Jenn

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Hllywoodcaper7@... wrote:
>
> > Now we are starting on the right path from the beginning with our
new puppy;
> also a GSD. So, since this is our first puppy on the RAW diet and,
of course,
> we have only limited exposure of this diet from our prior
experience, I am in
> need of some help. :)
>
> We will be picking our puppy up in a few days; he will be 6-7 weeks
old and
> may already be 18 lbs. Someone in another group suggested I should
wait to
> pick him up at 8 weeks to ensure proper "doggie language"
socialization to cut
> down on aggression. Any views?
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Hi guys! Some ?s about GSDs, puppies, and RAW diet :)
Posted by: "carolyn arnold" celebrationcookies@yahoo.com celebrationcookies
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

I agree, I will not let my GSD's go before 8 weeks. We got our first at 12 weeks and I did not regret that at all. have fun with your puppy!!! Just an opinion! Carolyn

streakinsixx <streakinsixx@yahoo.com> wrote: -Just my two cents, but a reputable breeder should NEVER let a pup go
before 8 weeks.

Good luck.
Jenn

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Hllywoodcaper7@... wrote:
>
> > Now we are starting on the right path from the beginning with our
new puppy;
> also a GSD. So, since this is our first puppy on the RAW diet and,
of course,
> we have only limited exposure of this diet from our prior
experience, I am in
> need of some help. :)
>
> We will be picking our puppy up in a few days; he will be 6-7 weeks
old and
> may already be 18 lbs. Someone in another group suggested I should
wait to
> pick him up at 8 weeks to ensure proper "doggie language"
socialization to cut
> down on aggression. Any views?
>

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "mikkeny" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 6:47 am ((PDT))

> You're right about the wet weight versus dry weight. That is the main
> reason why you can't compare protein percents directly between raw
> meat and kibble. Differences in the amount of fat etc. also could be a
> factor in making a comparison. The difference in wet and dry weight
> was accounted for in the example I gave.

The comparison of percentages is not an unhelpful one, ime. Especially
in those all too frequent cases of people (even vet people) who think
that raw meat is "100% pure protein". I always surprised when a vet
tries to whip this out at me...

Sure, the number shake out will reveal that raw is, in fact, higher in
protein than crap food (no surprise), but that's only one side of the
die, as it were. The quality/bioavailability of protein, the moisture
content (which should NOT be written off, as it is a vital property
imo), the physical form, etc. all make contributions to the value of
raw as a whole.

I've gone round and round with this numbers thing both here and on
other lists and for me, it comes down to the percentage protein AS FED
is the most useful value in this kind of discussion.

I know that you're not bashing the plan as being too high in protein, I
get that. But others need to realize that raw is not "100% pure
protein", either.

Casey

Messages in this topic (12)
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6b. Re: labwork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:26 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@...>
wrote:

> You're right about the wet weight versus dry weight. That is
> the main
> reason why you can't compare protein percents directly between raw
> meat and kibble. Differences in the amount of fat etc. also
> could be a
> factor in making a comparison.

Marty,
The flaw in your original example is that you are comparing pounds
of raw to cups of kibble. To be an accurate example, you should
compare pounds of both. Also the use of 1 lb of raw (2% of body
weight) and 2 cups of kibble (recommended by mfgr) are just two
arbitrary numbers that have no relation to one another.

Also, the amount of fat is irrevelant because it is a seperate
measure totally unrelated to protein amount and only confuses the
issue. Both kibble nutrition information and USDA website for raw
foods present both percentage of protein AND percentage of fat ... 2
completely different independent measurements.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Loose stool problem-again!
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

2 weeks ago I got a whole turkey from someone. I thawed it out and cut
into pieces for my small dog. She's about 40 lbs and eats around 1 lb
a day but could stand to gain a little weight. I gave her the turkey
leg friday night. She did great with it and had no problems with the
bone. However, at 3:30 am she woke me up having to go out and had
almost liquid stool. I don't know why. She's had turkey before but it
was ground. The only other time she really gets like that is with lamb.

Then Sat morning, the other dog had the same thing. She only ate pork
earlier in the week but she had lamb shoulder Thurs & Fri. Her stool
was also liquid but had some mucus-like white stuff and small pieces
of bone. I thought at first it was worms but it wasn't. Last night she
was still going just liquid and gassy. She's also scooting a lot but
with the soft stools the anals probably aren't getting expressed.

Neither dog is going frequently just loose when they do go. I fasted
them both Sat night but fed them Sun night. They did not wake me up
last night. What did I do wrong with the turkey?
Michele

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Loose stool problem-again!
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

>They did not wake me up
> last night. What did I do wrong with the turkey?

Michele,

Was it enhanced at all? Some dogs just don't tolerate enhanced meats...

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Loose stool problem-again!
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

It might have been but the chicken she gets is enhanced too, I think.
Other than organic, that is the only thing I can seem to find and I
can't afford organic. The other dog has been having the same thing as
she always gets so hers is more strange.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Casey Post" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
> Michele,
>
> Was it enhanced at all? Some dogs just don't tolerate enhanced meats...
>
> Casey
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. starting GSD pup on raw
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:37 am ((PDT))

>>GSDs have sensitive digestive systems and such, so I would need some
probiotics again I am assuming. I also remember buying flax seed oil too but I have
read now salmon oil is better b/c of the Omega 3s?. . . Any "recipes" or
scheduled puppy diets you recommend or even sources for such info is appreciated as
well.<<

Well, Tamatha, I would have said this same thing at one point in time. I think the truth of the matter is that GSDs are pretty "basic" dogs underneath their GSD costumes, and the closer we feed to what nature intended, the less their supposed "sensitive digestive systems" come into play.
We 'came to' raw because of our rescue GSD who had diarrhea daily for an entire year, despite the best efforts of our veterinarian. Within days, the diarrhea ceased, she began to gain weight, her coat became plush and shiny; she's a bratty picture of health now at 7.5 yrs. Priobiotics are simply not necessary in a raw diet, properly done.
You are right about the flax seed, though -- salmon oil or fish body oil is much more species appropriate.

>>I saw some beef patties and such on .... but I don't think our
budget could handle that all the time, especially as our little guy grows. He is
expected to be over 100 lbs at full maturity.<<

Wow, this is really huge for a GSD! The breed standard is 24-26" at the withers; a 100 lb. dog would be grossly fat at standard size. Perhaps you should evaluate whether the breeder's dogs were overweight or perhaps their estimate will prove to be a bit high.

>>I am only worried about what to feed him over the next few months and how.
This puppy deserves more than we unknowingly gave our last dog since now we
have discovered the facts. <<

Yes, guilt is a powerful emotion! I can still feel guilty if I think back on the horrible k***le products I fed to our dogs over the years. All you can do is your best, and back then, you didn't know better. Now you do. Now you can confidently feed your puppy as the "house wolf" that he is.
I just weaned a litter of Pembroke Welsh Corgi puppies to raw. At five weeks, they were able to pull all the meat off chicken bones; by six weeks, they were consuming the same bones. With great advice from Chris O., I gave them a variety of meats immediately. They're 11 weeks now, and those still here (on purpose!) have had venison, elk, pork, beef heart, chicken, turkey, fish, eggs. Nothing has created any digestive problems, although as expected, some meals cause looser stools than others. Your puppy will be easy to feed raw!
Congrats on the new puppy!! You'll have a blast, and with the help of folks on this list, your puppy will be a healthy, happy little carnivore!

-- Anne Moore . . . 33 yrs. of owning GSDs and counting. . . .
(M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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8b. Re: starting GSD pup on raw
Posted by: "kahonebay" kahonebay@yahoo.com kahonebay
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:29 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hello, new GSD owner!
I have two GSD siblings that are 2.5 years old and are 90 lbs (female) & 125 lbs (male)! Their parents were both purebred and papered (although one had certified hips/elbows and the other did not). Our dogs are not overweight by any means...very active and are the picture of good health on the outside (both have elbow dysplasia and we think hip dysplasia from the non-certified parent and thankfully we were eventually able to convince the owners of the parents, who were friends of ours, to no longer breed after we found this out AND we were able to contact most of the parents of the other siblings to let them know so they could get x-rays done on their pups), shiny coats, teeth are looking great since on raw and they haven't had sensitive stomachs at all (not even on raw) and we raised the litter of seven from birth. Our male does seem to have more injuries though and we wish that we would have fed them raw from birth as I have seen from this list suggestions on the
growth spurts in large breeds by feeding raw. We fed what we thought was good k**ble (was never on the recall list if that really means anything) and were told by our vet to feed the large breed formula and I'm pretty convinced that this hurt them more than it helped in regards to their hip and elbow problems. A UC Davis surgeon evaluated them twice and at 1 year wanted to do elbow surgery on both dogs ($4,000 for both dogs "for the procedure") so we scheduled them for surgery and when at 1 week prior they called to go over the "final bill" and details of what we would need to do as far as getting them there, pre-op and post-op procedures and told us how much it was really going to be we politely canceled. They are managing very well on pain meds in the winter (as needed and it isn't very much) and then kenneling here and there when any limping occurs (mostly the male since he is much bigger and plays much harder). We have only been raw feeding for 2 months and are
very anxious to see how they do this winter (and the rest of their lives on raw!). Not to scare you away from GSD's or any other large breed, they are very, very smart, very, very loving and a ton of fun. I just wanted to give my testimony on k**ble and THANK you for starting your new puppy on raw from the beginning to help eliminate all those unwanted vet bills and pain for your fur-baby!
Good luck on your new GSD puppy...spoil 'em rotten with good RMB's...your pup will thank you for it (your vet surely won't - ha ha)!!!
Kris

Michael Moore <m-tak@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>GSDs have sensitive digestive systems and such, so I would need some
probiotics again I am assuming. I also remember buying flax seed oil too but I have
read now salmon oil is better b/c of the Omega 3s?. . . Any "recipes" or
scheduled puppy diets you recommend or even sources for such info is appreciated as
well.<<

>>I saw some beef patties and such on .... but I don't think our
budget could handle that all the time, especially as our little guy grows. He is
expected to be over 100 lbs at full maturity.<<

Wow, this is really huge for a GSD! The breed standard is 24-26" at the withers; a 100 lb. dog would be grossly fat at standard size. Perhaps you should evaluate whether the breeder's dogs were overweight or perhaps their estimate will prove to be a bit high.

-- Anne Moore . . . 33 yrs. of owning GSDs and counting. . . .
(M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

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8c. Re: starting GSD pup on raw
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:52 am ((PDT))

"I am only worried about what to feed him over the next few months and how.
This puppy deserves more than we unknowingly gave our last dog since now we
have discovered the facts"

Congrats on your new pup and on choosing to research what is best. 100%
raw, 10% bone, 90% meat and an organ meal once in awhile (weekly a single
meal or small amount daily) is the most basic easy thing you will ever feed.

I started my pups out on raw at 3.5 weeks on ground beef heart and quickly
moved on to chicken thigh/leg or turkey and bone in breasts. Your pup will
eat approx 5-10% of his current weight; feed 3 times a day until around 6
months; then 2x a day until a year or so. Then once a day is fine. Some
feed until their dogs are full; some feed approx amounts each time - you
will be able to judge by feeling your pups sides - they should feel liek
wash boards but not too skinny. He should have waist line and you should
be able to see his last rib. It is not good to keep pups fat and roly poly
as once thought. Keep us posted - ask as many questions as you need to.
Oh, supplements - I feed an egg daily and fish oil for the shedding.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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9a. Re: behaviour changes after eating certain foods ? & itching
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))

The closest thing I can think of is that my boys are extra
affectionate to me after they get their favorite meal. But that
really just means extra kisses and a dogpile on mom's lap as they
crash out. I've never noticed any negative temperment changes that
could be attributed to food, and I try to give a big variety.

If it were me, I might make a food journal detailing what I fed every
day and any odd reactions that I noticed. You might find a pattern
in there, or you might find that it is random. I don't know how long
you've been feeding raw, but a lot of us are extra observant of our
furry companions after we make the switch, so that might be it.

I wouldn't think that he's missing anything in his diet that makes
him randomly moody or that it is an allergy. Maybe it is just dog
being dog. If you can pinpoint a certain food that seems to cause
the moodiness, I wouldn't see any problem with taking that one food
out.

Oh, and with the itching, if you tried an elimination diet and
nothing changed I would say the allergies are probably
environmental. Have you tried adding some (or more) fish oil to the
diet?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa S." <acbrio@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone noticed behaviour changes in their dogs after they eat
> certain foods ? After eating certain foods, my dog becomes more
> cranky with other dogs (he loves them normally), he is more easily
> spooked and more playful. That is after eating things like beef
> liver.

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9b. Re: behaviour changes after eating certain foods ? & itching
Posted by: "leanne rose" mail4leanne@yahoo.com mail4leanne
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:25 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR POSTS.***

I'm not overly knowledgeable but my gsd/akita cross was demonstrating very similar problems to yours and I found out he's allergic to the colourings in his commercial diet, he hasn't shown any signs of the itching etc since switching to raw 2 months ago so at a guess it sounds like he might be allergic to something.
Not much I know but I hope it helps.
Leanne

"Lisa S." <acbrio@shaw.ca> wrote:
Has anyone noticed behaviour changes in their dogs after they eat
certain foods ?

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10a. Work Wonders book
Posted by: "Lee Schlesinger" ienjoybeingagirl@cox.net kokapellis
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:18 am ((PDT))

On page 100 in the book regarding what to feed your dog it says "Feed table scraps/ pureed fruits and vegetable peelings as available"

Also regarding taking the bones away from her I am new to feeding raw bones, and once she ate too much fat and meat,and got diarehha. The vet said continue giving her bones but don't let her have too much at once. so I let her eat part of it one day and take it away and give her the rest the next day. I should just give her the bone that she can eat in one sitting I guess, and try to cut out what I don't want her to have I guess. Thanks for telling me she is NOT being bad though. She is very gentle dog.

Lee

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10b. Re: Work Wonders book
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:32 am ((PDT))

When you say bones, do you mean bare bones or raw meaty (emphasis on
the meaty) bones? For the first stages of feeding, you can either
feed meal sized portions (like chicken quarters) so there is nothing
to take up, or continue monitoring her food so she doesn't eat too
much at once. After getting the digestive system up to speed you can
slowly increase the amount of food she eats so that eventually you
can just let her eat as much as she wants and then pick it up when
she walks away from it.

When I read table scraps/pureed fruits and veggies should be fed "as
available" it means whenever it is convenient to me. Table scraps
get fed rarely at my place. I refuse to feed them off of my plate
since it gives them a reason to beg at the table, so I have to
remember to put aside the leftovers for feeding at a later time. I
never find it convenient to puree veggies and fruits, and since a
good varied raw diet isn't lacking in anything veggies can supply I
don't worry about it. I seem to remember reading that he believes
the extra bits are required since *whole* prey isn't usually being
fed (i.e. eyeballs, hair, brain etc might be lacking). I'd rather
spend my time finding suppliers of whole prey than blending veggies.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Schlesinger"
<ienjoybeingagirl@...> wrote:
>
> On page 100 in the book regarding what to feed your dog it
says "Feed table scraps/ pureed fruits and vegetable peelings as
available"
>
> Also regarding taking the bones away from her I am new to feeding
raw bones, and once she ate too much fat and meat,and got diarehha.
The vet said continue giving her bones but don't let her have too
much at once.

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Work Wonders book
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Schlesinger"
<ienjoybeingagirl@...> wrote:
>
> On page 100 in the book regarding what to feed your dog
> it says "Feed table scraps/ pureed fruits and vegetable
> peelings as available"

In the past I have asked Tom sepcifically about feeding plant
meterial to dogs. His answer was "some vegetable matter does no
harm and may do some good" That is a lot different than
recommending feeding thim. On page 23 of "Work Wonders", regarding
feeding fruits and veggies he says "... but in general what is good
for you is OK and may be beneficial for your pet." That is hardly a
ringing endorcement of feeding fruits and veggies. "OK" doesn't
mean "good" and "may" doesn't mean "is".

> Also regarding taking the bones away from her I am new to
> feeding raw bones, and once she ate too much fat and meat,and
> got diarehha. The vet said continue giving her bones but don't
> let her have too much at once.

Don't think so much about feeding meat and and feeding bones.
Instead, think more about feeding animal parts. Bones just happen
to be a part of animal parts. Don't worry too much about the volume
of either or ratio between the two. If you feed a variety of animal
parts from a variety of animals, you will get everything pretty much
right.

In general you don't want to feed bones alone. Always as part of an
amimal part or whole animal carcass. That way you don't have to
worry so much about too much bone or having to take away bones.

I hope I have explained that clearly enough. For example, feed
chicken quarters ... they already have bone in them. Feed whole
chickens or half chickens ... bone is already in them. Feed pork
ribs or turkey necks or turkey drumsticks. All those already have
bone in them. It's ok to feed meat only meals a few times a week
but its not ok to feed bone only meals.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Runny Poops ----- HELP
Posted by: "ptrsrgnt" ptrsrgnt@yahoo.ca ptrsrgnt
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

Thanks for the replies and the information. I have already changed
them to 2 meals a day and more meat (less bone) and up to now it has
worked. I intend to follow your advise and keep a close eye on them.
Thanks again to everyone who took the time to reply. It is most
appreciated.
Peter

Messages in this topic (5)
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12a. Re: Venison and goopy poo
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:24 am ((PDT))

Hi, Nadia, it sounds to me like you are doing things right and you
are just going through the learning curve that we humans all go
through when learning to feed our little carnivores.

Unless your pup is constantly scooting and chewing at her backside
all day long, I would chalk it up to the goopy poo. Her butt is
probably just irritated from before and it might take a couple of
days to calm down. Just think of how your hind end feels after you
have a similar digestive upset. (=

In the unlikely event that the new vet determines that your pup has
worms I wouldn't change mealtime much. Maybe you would want to avoid
adding any new proteins, but that is about it. Though this is OT for
this list, you should investigate using food grade diatamaceous earth
(DE) to take care of a worm infestation.

I hope your little one's hind end is feeling better.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Alfonso and Nadia De La Cruz
<chickendido@...> wrote:

> If it turns out to be worms though, would I have to stay away from
feeding certain proteins while being treated? Should I feed a
probiotic while on dewormers?
> Thanks and yes I tend to overreact because after realizing that I'm
pretty much causing my pets ailments by feeding kibble and canned
meats for 11 years, any reaction at all is given much attention
because I feel so guilty and also my puppy is and will stay a super
tiny dog, so I get worried fast as I constantly hear that the smaller
the dog, the faster illnesses can turn into death. Yes, goopy poop
and death, not the same, but butt scooting has to have a more serious
cause!?

Messages in this topic (10)
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13a. Re: Agression
Posted by: "Debi C" dcole6@satx.rr.com scarlet_debi
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:24 am ((PDT))

If you tried to take my meat away from me, you'd might pull back a
nub. Leave the dogs eat in peace. You will teach them to be
agressive if you tease them when they're eating.

Debi and the JRT Marines.
>
> From: "Lee" <ienjoybeingagirl@...>
>
>
> I have trained my dog to always let me take her food away from a pup
> on. BUT, giving her raw bones, it is very difficult for her to
leave it
> when I say OFF. I have to put her on a leash and she tries her best
to
> show me she does not want to leave the bones. I then if necessary
pull
> her up by the collar until she has to drop the bones. Sometimes she
> will come and then I give her a very good raw piece of meat or
another
> great treat. I can hold the bone and she is fine pulling the meat
off,
> but once I give it to her that is another story.
>
> How to I cure her from this agression with raw bones? After she is
bad
> I have her stay in her crate for a bit, and remove the bone.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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14a. Cushings Disease
Posted by: "Mal Firth" firth_malcolm@yahoo.co.uk firth_malcolm
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:52 am ((PDT))

A friend of mine has a Border Collie (I think it's 8yr old) that has
Cushings Disease (see

http://www.kateconnick.com/library/cushingsdisease.html). Does anybody
have any experience of whether or not a raw fed diet would help
alleviate this condition?

Mal Firth

Messages in this topic (6)
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14b. Re: Cushings Disease
Posted by: "lizwehrli" lizwehrli@yahoo.com lizwehrli
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mal Firth" <firth_malcolm@...> wrote:
>
> A friend of mine has a Border Collie (I think it's 8yr old) that has
> Cushings Disease (see
> http://www.kateconnick.com/library/cushingsdisease.html). Does anybody
> have any experience of whether or not a raw fed diet would help
> alleviate this condition?
>
> Mal Firth

Hi Mal,

My Standard Poodle has Addisons Disease which is the opposite of
Cushings disease. My understanding of the two diseases, is that in
Cushings, the adrenals supply too much mineralocorticoids and
glucocorticoids, in Addisons disease, the adrenal glands don't work.
The appropriate medicine in either case makes the disease manageable.
I feed Gus a species appropriate raw diet and he does terrific. But
diet alone will not manage either of these diseases.

Liz
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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15a. Re: Old Lady!!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

IMO it is never too late to switch a dog to a species appropriate
diet. It sounds like she is already trying to lead you towards a
switch. I suggest you go ahead and do it. FYI, lots of older dogs do
better with less bone than their younger counterparts, so go easy on
the bone until you know where she is most comforable. Good luck.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Leanne" <mail4leanne@...> wrote:

> has hardly ever been to the vet in her life. I've been feeding my
> young male on raw for the last few months and my old lady loves to
> pinch his dinner, she even nicked some liver off him yesterday. I
> give her about 50/50 raw v's tin at the moment

Messages in this topic (2)
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