Feed Pets Raw Food

Sunday, December 30, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12437

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Introducing organs
From: Giselle
1b. Re: Introducing organs
From: costrowski75

2. Many Thanks from a newbie!
From: Deb

3a. Re: vets and samonella
From: johnsonkp200
3b. Re: vets and samonella
From: GWB

4.1. My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
From: Betty
4.2. Re: My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
From: Heather
4.3. Re: My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
From: Belinda van de Loo

5a. Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: Kristina and Corey
5b. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: ginny wilken
5c. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

6.1. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Betty
6.2. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Betty
6.3. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Betty
6.4. Re: Hi everyone!/teeth cleaning meals
From: Laurie Swanson
6.5. Re: Hi everyone!
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: carnesbill
7b. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: noahsmom8497
7c. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: Laura Atkinson
7d. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: Sandee Lee
7e. Re: Another newbie with questions!
From: carnesbill

8.1. Re: liver
From: T Smith
8.2. Re: liver
From: Belinda van de Loo
8.3. Re: liver
From: Morledzep@aol.com

9a. Re: Pickey eating and Horking it back up, Silly story and questions
From: Casey Post


Messages
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1a. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:54 pm ((PST))

Hi, Wendy!
I usually only find beef and chicken liver in my local
stores, although occasionally I come up with a find of sweetbreads, too.
Then I stock up! I get kidney pretty regularly online. Spleen comes to
mind, although it is expensive in my area. And tripe, which I buy ground,
sigh, 'cause I can't find it affordably otherwise.

If you're feeding whole, ungutted fish, with the heads on, there's a full
complement of organs in each one. ; )
Whole prey, like rabbit, if you can find it, can be a great way of getting
variety in organs for your guys.

Other than what I've mentioned, lights (lungs) and brains come to mind.

BTW, heart and gizzards (the giblet 'package' that comes with whole chickens
usually has the heart, gizzard and liver in it) are organs, but fed as
meatymeat. So is tongue.

As for introduction, they don't need a lot; 3-5% liver and 5-7% 'other'
organs of their total intake, so a bit of this and a bit of that in with a
regular meal is fine. My girl is big, about 125 lbs, so when I get organs, I
often cut 'em up into chunks, mush 'em into those 2 oz Gladware
disposable/reusuable snack cups and stuff 'em into the freezer. Then I just
pop out a frozen glob of whatever onto dinner, whenever the mood strikes me.


TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


<snip>
>
> My question is, how do I go about introducing organs? I feel that
> Foxy is ready, and Sophie will be soon.
>


> <snip>
>


> Other than that, I have beef
> liver, of course, heart, kidney, and today's find, beef sweetbreads.
> Should I introduce these items one at a time, as I did with the
> meats? Also, is this a decent variety of organs at this point? Are
> there any things that are extra good that I should look for?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Wendy
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Introducing organs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:15 pm ((PST))

"mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
> My question is, how do I go about introducing organs?
*****
In small doses, gradually.


Other than that, I have beef
> liver, of course, heart, kidney, and today's find, beef sweetbreads.
> Should I introduce these items one at a time, as I did with the
> meats?
Yes. I start introducing organs almost from the get-go, but always in
small, token amounts. Whenever it's time to start organs, they should
be a gradual learning experience for you and your dogs.


Also, is this a decent variety of organs at this point?
*****
It's plenty. Heart is fed as a muscle meat, as are gizzards. Liver,
kidney and sweetbreads are fine. You would not be a bad DogMom if you
did not feed beyond these options. Try others (eyeballs?) when they
become available but don't beat yourself up over real or imagined
shortfalls. Remember, when you are able to feed whole prey--including
whole fish--you are feeding every last organ, every time.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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2. Many Thanks from a newbie!
Posted by: "Deb" wdlentz@hotmail.com sonbeam922
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:28 pm ((PST))

I wanted to take some time to give thanks to all who participate and
moderate this group!

I started feeding our 2 female boxer pups (17 weeks on Jan 2) and our
3 y.o. mini schnauzer/maltese raw four days ago.

I have been lurking and studying for about 2-3 weeks.

Would like to report that the gals have not missed the other food and
at the risk of sounding off my rocker, I would like to list some of
the changes I have noticed in four days! If I am crazy, you can let
me know! ;)

1. More peaceful...still loads of energy, just calmer but still
bouncy and fun!

2. They are resting better. The comment today lying around looking
pregnant is a great description!

3. Fur seems softer to me (and my boys).

4. Their bodies look fuller/sturdier...this may just be the age of
development they are in, but they just look healthier to me, not so
ribby.

Well, it seems like it would be too soon to really be able to tell
some of these things, but, I really did not know what I was looking
for. So, I can just report what we see!

Thanks again, and a million more times for all the participation and
moderation which has helped be me be a better fur mom and ultimately
a better mom to my sons!

Happy New Year!

Sincerely,

Deb

Basil, 3 y.o., Chicago, 16 weeks, Charlotte 16 weeks, Matthew and
Mark 10 and 6 years respectively!

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: vets and samonella
Posted by: "johnsonkp200" sunfiretervs@comcast.net johnsonkp200
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:08 pm ((PST))

Regarding the sammonella study, it wouldn't matter if they did a study
on 10,000 dogs (instead of 20), would it? I laughed out loud when it
hit me.

Think of it - they are finding samonella in the samples of chicken fed
to the dogs, then finding samonella in some of the dogs' poop that were
fed that chicken. Well, since the chicken we feed is the same chicken
we feed ourselves..... what does that tell you?

It tells me that samonella might be found on the kitchen counters of
people who eat chicken, regardless of if they even own pets! So then,
what are they worried about, that chicken-fed dogs' poop is likely to
end up on the kitchen counter as well? Ha ha ha ha what a silly study!

Karen

Messages in this topic (22)
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3b. Re: vets and samonella
Posted by: "GWB" chiksika@comcast.net kioqua
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:12 pm ((PST))

johnsonkp200 wrote:
> Think of it - they are finding samonella in the samples of chicken fed
> to the dogs, then finding samonella in some of the dogs' poop

Salmonella sp. are a normal gut resident so the idea that dogs present
with it in their stool samples is hardly a surprise and completely
misleading when shown in any "study".

Gerry Brierley
--
Are there no prisons?? Are there no workhouses??-Ebenezer Scrooge


Messages in this topic (22)
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4.1. My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:08 pm ((PST))

Hi Heather,

I've been feeding him a mixture or recipe type foods but contains more
than 50% meats in addition to it also some chicken bones but not often
enough. I bought beef rib bones (his first ones ever..I have a very
happy dog) and I started him on those with one per day after his usual
meal of now just meat, and some organ meat on occasion. He's on day 3
of that now, and already the tarter is falling away. I took a good
look at that back loose tooth on right side again tonight, and the
tarter or icky crud just came right out when I did a bit of cleaning
which surprised me. I took some before pics of his teeth, and I'll
take some after pics in a few weeks, etc. I can post a link in the
links section if anyone might be interested in looking at them. I also
put some Iodine mixed with water on that back tooth tonight with an
eye dropper. If say a tooth falls out, but not the root of the back
molar, do the regrow it or does it have to come out by dental work?
Also, do they ever tighten up on their own?

Prism


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Heather" <newbeginnings06@...> wrote:
>
> From what I gathered, you are only feeding boneless meats and organs
> currently and feeding a meaty rib once a week? If so, he needs to have
> bone everyday not just once a week.
>


Messages in this topic (39)
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4.2. Re: My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:00 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
If say a tooth falls out, but not the root of the back
> molar, do the regrow it or does it have to come out by dental work?
> Also, do they ever tighten up on their own?

Good to hear about your pup! That's awesome news about his teeth
starting to clean up. :) I don't think teeth ever grow back once the
fall out, regardless if the root is there or not. I'm thinking they
don't tighten back up either. I've never had a dog with tooth problems
(besides tartar) so hopefully someone else can give you answers.

Heather

Messages in this topic (39)
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4.3. Re: My dogs teeth on 3rd day of raw rib bones
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com belindavandeloo
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:21 pm ((PST))

Hi,
I switched my sister's 13 year old Bichon to raw this past summer.
Prior to this he had serious dragon mouth and gum disease whereby he
lost 2 incisors. Another incisor was loose but I just checked today
and it is clean and tight - he won't lose it after all!
Belinda

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@> wrote:
> If say a tooth falls out, but not the root of the back
> > molar, do the regrow it or does it have to come out by dental work?
> > Also, do they ever tighten up on their own?

Messages in this topic (39)
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5a. Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "Kristina and Corey" skijor.kris@gmail.com skijorkris
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:13 pm ((PST))

I read somewhere that feeding raw food makes a dogs blood bitter to ticks, fleas and even
mosquitos. But I have not read it anywhere else. Does anyone know more about this, or
have an observation regarding it?

We just started feeding our dogs raw a few weeks ago. We don't have any fleas, but they
do get a few ticks and there are tons of mosqitos here in Minnesota in the warmer months.

Just curious...

Kris
skijor.kris@gmail.com

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:20 pm ((PST))


On Dec 30, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Kristina and Corey wrote:

> I read somewhere that feeding raw food makes a dogs blood bitter to
> ticks, fleas and even
> mosquitos. But I have not read it anywhere else. Does anyone know
> more about this, or
> have an observation regarding it?

We don't know the mechanism, but healthy dogs are naturally
unattractive to parasites, to a high degree. This is nature's way to
take out the unfit. Many of us have made this observation.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Does feeding raw repel fleas and ticks?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:59 pm ((PST))


In a message dated 12/30/2007 6:13:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
skijor.kris@gmail.com writes:

I read somewhere that feeding raw food makes a dogs blood bitter to ticks,
fleas and even
mosquitos. But I have not read it anywhere else. Does anyone know more about
this, or
have an observation regarding it?



Kris,

healthier dogs are less likely to be infested by any parasite.. BUT raw
feeding does NOT stop fleas or ticks or mosquitos from biting. and it doesn't make
the dogs less tasty.

it DOES make the dogs better able to deal with the assaults and therefore the
fleas and the ticks won't be as interested. But that level of health is a
long way down the road, it doesn't come in the first year or two of raw feeding.


you will still need to find ways to protect your dogs from the assaults of
the parasites. we dust their bedding and the baseboards of the entire house
with food grade DE. Vaccuum frequently and in the summer when they are very
active we spray the dogs with homemade lemon skin tonic.

Most of my dogs have finally reached a point where they are healthy enough to
deal with the parasites.. but we have an immune compromised akita and an old
golden guy that just can't fight em off anymore. so we continue to fight long
and hard.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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6.1. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:59 pm ((PST))

Yes, mine dog's teeth are bad. I took some before pics, do I request
to have the link added in the link base? I am giving him raw rib bones
now daily..he's on his 3rd day and his 3rd meaty raw rib bone, he gets
it after his usual feeding of raw meat and and on occasion organ
meats. Already the tarter is coming off..ewww...I just had to touch
the back tooth tonight with my fingernail..just looking really good at
that back loose tooth and the tarter and build up stuff came readily
out of the gum line. Tooth is loose, not really bleeding at all,
except maybe irritated in a good way perhaps from the raw rib bones.

I'm wondering if a loose tooth always has to get extracted, or if it
falls out is it ok, or will it ever tighten up on its own? He's 8 and
1/2 yrs. old and hasn't had health issues to date.

Prism


> When the dog has the dental problems this one does, he certainly
does need editable bone every day at least until the problem has
cleared itself up. He will always need bone more than once a week.
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

Messages in this topic (39)
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6.2. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:59 pm ((PST))

My 8 and 1/2 yr. old Maltese started on a BARF diet with additional
raw meat 2 x a day in small meals starting in 2002. And he got store
type rawhide bones and a special beefy flavored bone he likes from the
grocery store that is softer. He also got some raw chicken bones on
occasion, but not consistantly, because I thought that the commerical
raw food patties (first Barf then Natures Prarie) has ground raw bone
in it. Dumb me:(
Then a few months ago I started making my own dog food, with raw meat,
organ meats, and some other things (I don't do that now, I just give
him raw meat, some organ meat on occasion and now the raw rib bones)
and because I couldn't find ground bone I thought to give him the raw
chicken bones (thighs or wings) a few times a week. Then I noticed his
teeth were very bad (I knew he needed cleaning but not the extent of
how bad they were)and so with some research I am now giving him his
first ever raw beef rib bones and oh my..he's very attached to them
and cleans them to perfection. He's on day 3 with is 3rd rib bone. The
tarter is already coming off so I'm happy and he's happy. But I don't
know about loose teeth in adult dogs, etc..trying to avoid the dental
vet if possible. I will get him in if needed asap though. I'm just
trying to educate myself better to improve his overall raw feeding.

Prism

The post you were replying to was replying to a post about a dog
> with very heavy plaque who had been fed a homemade diet of meat and
> organs with no bone for a few years I think. The original poster
> had stated that she had JUST begun feeding a rib bone once a week.
> The post you were replying to was written in that context. The dog
has these problems because he wasn't fed bones in a long time.
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>


Messages in this topic (39)
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6.3. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:59 pm ((PST))

How does one go about feeding then? Do I buy a half rabbit with skin
and hair or what? I am wondering now what I'm supposed to do. There
are a lot of different options to be sure. What's a rip and tear meat
to sink teeth into?

My dog is over 8 yrs. old, in very good health outside of his teeth
problems and what that might actually cause. How does one buy a small
fresh dead prey animal for feeding a 9 lb. Maltese?

Prism


> A good, interactive bone several times a week will do a fine job of
> scraping the teeth clean, but even it may not clean the gumlines. A
> good, interactive bone several times a week plus some good old rip and
> tear meat and something for the dog to literally sink its teeth into
is what cleans ALL the teeth.
If one finds oneself feeding bone every day to clean teeth, one should
revaluate the procss. In other words, think again.
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (39)
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6.4. Re: Hi everyone!/teeth cleaning meals
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:01 pm ((PST))

You could try a beef or pork roast--with skin is better, but even w/o
skin it will do some good. Get one that's enough for a few days'
meals and let him eat some, put it back in the frig, and repeat until
gone. Whole pork hocks are also good for this--pretty fatty, and not
much of a meal, but good to work on in place of or in addition to a
meal sometimes. If you can get skin-on goat, that's a good choice.
I get big hunks (like a leg or a shoulder w/ribs) at Asian markets.
You could have them cut it into smaller pieces (not too small--like
enough for a few days meals for your dog).

I've never fed skin-on, fur-on rabbit, so can't answer that. If you
can get it, tho, it would probably be good for his teeth, but he may
take a bit to figure out how to tackle it. And rabbit is one of the
iffier items. My dogs love it but some hate it. Some dogs will
really refuse it.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
What's a rip and tear meat
> to sink teeth into?


Messages in this topic (39)
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6.5. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if a loose tooth always has to get extracted, or
> if it falls out is it ok, or will it ever tighten up on its own?

I wouldn't worry about it right now. It may tighten up on its own or
it may just come out on its own. Time will tell

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (39)
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7a. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:59 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "noahsmom8497" <noahsmom8497@...>
wrote:
>
> Okay, is it "safe" to get the meat from a grocery store
> or butcher?

Absolutely. I think most of us get a good portion of our meat from
a grocery store or butcher.

> Are there concerns that at some time the meat was at too low of a
> temperature since stores & butchers assume their meat will be
> thoroughly cooked?

Heck no, where in the world did you hear that. Many of us have
multiple freezers for our dog's food.

> Also where do you feed your dogs?

I feed mine in the kitchen. Others feed out side, others feed in
crates. Some feed in the bathroom.

> My puppy tends to drag stuff out of
> her bowl and take it somewhere else.

Most of us don't use bowls. Raw eating doesn't go well with bowls.
We just hand the dog an animal part. It's easy to teach your dog to
eat on a towel, or plastic table cloth layed on the floor, or a
shower curtain.

> Do you feed them outside?

I don't, a few people do.

> I read something about feeding the dog the same huge chuck of
> meat 3x a day. Where do you put it inbetween feedings?

In the fridge.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "noahsmom8497" noahsmom8497@yahoo.com noahsmom8497
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:29 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.


What about cross contamination? The dog eats a raw piece of meat
then goes and plays with it's toys and spreads "stuff" all over the
house. Is that a concern? Thanks again! Julie


Messages in this topic (6)
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7c. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:55 pm ((PST))

Only if you're going to chew on their toys and lick the floor yourself :-)

On Dec 30, 2007 8:15 PM, noahsmom8497 <noahsmom8497@yahoo.com> wrote:

> EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.
>
>
> What about cross contamination? The dog eats a raw piece of meat
> then goes and plays with it's toys and spreads "stuff" all over the
> house. Is that a concern? Thanks again! Julie
>
>
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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7d. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:18 pm ((PST))

What are you concerned about, Julie? Bacteria are everywhere and most not
harmful. Really has nothing to do with raw meat...in fact, I'd be more
worried about the mouth of a dog eating kibble than raw.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "noahsmom8497" <noahsmom8497@yahoo.com>

What about cross contamination? The dog eats a raw piece of meat
then goes and plays with it's toys and spreads "stuff" all over the
house. Is that a concern? Thanks again! Julie


Messages in this topic (6)
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7e. Re: Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "noahsmom8497" <noahsmom8497@...>
wrote:
>
> What about cross contamination?

Somehow you have the vision of raw meat covered in all kinds of
deadly stuff. Get that image out of your mind. It's not
realistic. Hundreds of millions of people handle raw meat every day
and nothing happens. I don't wash my hands everytime I touch some
raw meat.

Did you never handle raw meat before you started feeding your dog
raw?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (6)
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8.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:01 pm ((PST))

2 of my Danes despise liver!
Drwoned in garlic... parm cheese...
No idea yet how to get them to eat it or the kidneys for that matter...
May have to nuke it next if i don't puke from the smell first *blech*
Trina

On Dec 30, 2007 11:00 AM, Sai Simonson <saiczarina@comcast.net> wrote:

> Tracy,
> My Borzois hate chicken liver but adore beef liver. Thus, I give them
> beef liver.
> Tasha spits the chicken liver out on the floor. If i bribe her with a
> pork steak she will give in.
> Dogs much like humans have food likes and dislikes.
>
> Sai
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (49)
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8.2. Re: liver
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com belindavandeloo
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:20 pm ((PST))

Dehydrated liver is irresistable for the dogs! I bought a dehydrator
pretty cheaply on eBay and have been using it for making all sorts of
raw treats and food for when we're on the go. If you do try to
dehydrate liver, I suggest you put your dehydrator in the garage for
the 24-36 hours it'll take. It's very smelly and the smell lingers for
days afterwards - not recommended for indoors!
Belinda

Messages in this topic (49)
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8.3. Re: liver
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:21 pm ((PST))


In a message dated 12/30/2007 9:01:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
coldbeach@gmail.com writes:

No idea yet how to get them to eat it or the kidneys for that matter...
May have to nuke it next if i don't puke from the smell first *blech*



Trina,

they are picking up on your revulsion.. you need to get a handle on your
emotions. as long as you have strong reactions to the organ meats your dogs won't
eat them no matter what you do to them.

put them in food bowls, do whatever you need to to keep yourself in check.
And when the dogs are eating go somewhere else, another room or something so
you won't upset them further. Give them about half an hour to eat and if they
don't pick it up, cover it and put in the fridge until their next meal.

or chunk it and mix it with green tripe.. again, with you in another room to
keep your emotions from upsetting the dogs..

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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Messages in this topic (49)
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9a. Re: Pickey eating and Horking it back up, Silly story and questions
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:54 pm ((PST))

> I've been feeding my dogs Pork Kidney now for about a month and they
> are doing fine with digesting and all, but a few odd behaviors have
> happened with 3 out of the 7

Erika,

Pork kidney is NOT a favorite among my crew - so much so that I won't be
buying it again. But beef kidney is much better received and lamb kidney
better still - everyone likes lamb kidneys at my house!

So don't give up on kidney all together, just try a different kind of kidney
in the future.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12436

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: quail
From: Ania Tysarczyk
1b. Re: quail
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Pickey eating and Horking it back up, Silly story and questions
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: pro-raw vets
From: costrowski75

4. Suppliers for BARF diet in Colorado
From: ashleighstevenson30

5a. Re: vets
From: steph.sorensen

6a. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations?
From: Susan Fortune

7. New Member Saying Hi--Freezer Space
From: Susan Fortune

8a. Re: meat from china
From: delcaste
8b. Re: meat from china
From: ginny wilken
8c. Re: meat from china
From: Caren OConnor
8d. Re: meat from china
From: zcdz@aol.com
8e. Re: meat from china
From: Heather

9. Chicken leg quarters...
From: tinypaws.rm

10.1. Re: liver
From: Sai Simonson

11. Re: meat from china/Seafood preservative??
From: Suzanne Maxine Uzoff

12.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

13a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

14a. is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
From: jordan_spiva
14b. Re: is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
From: Karen Swanay
14c. Re: is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski
14d. Re: is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
From: Renate
14e. Re: is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
From: Susanne MacLeod

15. Introducing organs
From: mozookpr

16. Another newbie with questions!
From: noahsmom8497


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: quail
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:22 am ((PST))

Yep, quail is wonderful meat. My dad raises quail and I feed it whole
(feathers and all) pretty regularly to one of my jack russells. The
other jack russell just won't eat it, unfortunately.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "killarneykateau" <catherin@...>
wrote:
>
> I came across a butcher that sells packages of frozen quail for
human consumption. Would
> they be okay for my 15 kilo shih-tzu X maltese?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: quail
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:03 am ((PST))

"killarneykateau" <catherin@...> wrote:>
> I came across a butcher that sells packages of frozen quail for human
consumption. Would
> they be okay for my 15 kilo shih-tzu X maltese?
*****
My goodness yes!
The only downside I can see is the size relative to your dogs; 15 kilos
is not a small dog and processed quail rarely can satisfy that much
dog. Similarly, the size may encourage stupid eating. If so, you
might consider butterflying the birds to make them less streamlined.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Pickey eating and Horking it back up, Silly story and questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:50 am ((PST))

"redangelbordeaux" <Erika@...> wrote:
> How important is kidney for them to eat?
*****
I think it, liver and spleen work together nicely but when push comes
to shove, liver wins. If all you can get into them is liver, then
liver it is.


I really don't want to get
> into the whole "sear it/hide it" game with 7 of them that's way to
> much food doctering, lol.
*****
If you want to get kidney into the two holdouts, try kidney from
different critters. Also consider cutting it small and feeding it
with ground or chopped meat. Or perhaps even buying a blend that
includes kidney. This would be about as far as I would be willing to
go.


> Has anyone else experienced the selective horking up of foods?
*****
The way you described it, sounds more like selective re-eating since
the girl horked up her entire meal and only ate selectively the
second time around.

But beyond that, dogs absolutely have the ability to regurgitate
their food. At the very least it's how wee pups are fed. Over the
course of seven plus years I've either seen my dogs (and cats)
regurgitate or seen the results of said regurgitation. It is a
different process than vomiting.


This will be my first RAW litter and I want to be sure
> that the "parents" are getting all the good stuff that they need :)
*****
I understand your concern. You'll need to feed liver along with lots
of meatymeat and whatever bones the bitch will accept...with luck
she'll buy into heart and who knows? Maybe in the throes of raging
hormonal she'll want all the organs you can provide. But all things
being equal, she's not going to suffer for lack of kidney.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: pro-raw vets
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:27 am ((PST))

Cdandp2@... wrote:
> Can we PLEASE stick to information about feeding and, unless
specific
> sources are referenced, not be promoting factory farmed meat? AND,
please, there
> ARE issues merit consideration...after all...would we want OUR
animals treated
> the way food-destined animals are treated for the "cheap?"
*****
What specific sources would you like for promoting factory meat?
What promotes factory meat is need. I am not a fan of it and were my
resources otherwise I would not be buying any but until then raw
factory meat continues to be a damn sight better than the best
organic freerange kibble.

I think I understand why you are upset but surely you cannot think
you're the first person to be distressed by not only the existence of
factory meat but also the sheer reality of having to live within a
budget. Feed the best food you can, help others feed the best food
they can, and get on with it.

If there are posts to which you object, you can either post rational
counter arguments or delete the offending post.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

4. Suppliers for BARF diet in Colorado
Posted by: "ashleighstevenson30" ashleighstevenson30@yahoo.com ashleighstevenson30
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

Hi,
I am new to raw feeding , my two malamutes are loving it!
I have been seeing alot of people posting BARF Co-op's to get the best
selection of food. Does anyone know of such a group in Colorado (near
Boulder/Longmont).

Thanks
Ashleigh

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: vets
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:18 am ((PST))

Case in point: you can draw a lot of biased conclusions from a study
like this, depending on which stance you take (kibble vs. raw). But
without a significant number of subjects, the study is completely
irrelevant, and any "evidence" or "conclusions" or, doG forbid, "proof"
(very dirty word in the scientific community) that they state based on
that particular study is complete crap, IMO.

I would think at least 100 subjects would be needed to even start to be
statistically significant. It is pointless to run a statistical
analysis for 20 dogs.

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jhusselstein" <jhusselstein@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Now, I know nothing about how the Math is done in these studies, but
it
> seems to me that if 80% of the raw food had S. but only 30% of the
raw
> fed stool samples had S.there you could derive a conclusion
supporting
> the efficiency of a dog's digestion!
> Jessica
>


Messages in this topic (20)
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6a. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations?
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:20 am ((PST))

Rudy, the 13 year-old, 9# min-pin is one of the "toothless wonders."

Had 8 front teeth extracted due to kibble-plaque 3 years ago.

Now a happy raw dog with clean teeth & SWEET breath!

He agrees with Bill on the chicken necks & wings, & is partial to turkey necks.

He will also steal chicken leg quarters from the other big dogs.

He & the Aussie cattle dog were the only two of 5 dogs to chew on natural cow legs from the meat vendor!

Susan
Southern California

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7. New Member Saying Hi--Freezer Space
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:26 am ((PST))

I solved the problem of freezer space by going on Craig's List. I found an 3 year-old, upright, industrial freezer (Imperial) for $150 (new is about $1,750.)

I like the uprights because things are more accessible. You have to excavate for stuff in chest-type freezers--although my son has one for his raw-fed AmStaff, and likes it...but he is more patient (& stronger) than I am!

When I get leg quarters, I freeze them on a Pam-coated cookie sheet, then slip them into giant zip-loc bags. I also do this with beef kidney that I slice into portions.

Susan
Southern California

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."


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It has removed 1397 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:26 am ((PST))

Both packages said that the meat was "made in China." I'm wondering
if there is any meat from any country that we should avoid purchasing?
I was just thinking that perhaps China wouldn't have the same
standards,


I bought inexpensive rabbit that was a "product of China." My dogs are
ok but I won't risk giving them anything from China again. I agree with
the posters that say buy american. We need to support our own economy
especially when we know we are getting a safe product. My sister's
dogs, all five, were in acute kidney distress and two had to be put
down while eating "good" kibble that contained a Chinese product.
Sometimes it's better to pay a little more. She had to pay over $20,000
and still two died....

Silvina

Messages in this topic (10)
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8b. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:00 am ((PST))


On Dec 30, 2007, at 4:20 AM, Caren OConnor wrote:

> I suppose we can't rest assured that our meat is any safer than
> the imported meats.


Oh, I think we can! It's not hard, first of all, to find reputable
meat sources in this country; there are more alternatives all the
time, at various levels. And we DO have governmental controls which
are at least observed by many. China, OTOH, is egregiously in
violation of even the most basic and moral standards in treatment and
concern for its inhabitants, let alone the crop animals. The whole
country is rapidly becoming so polluted it may not survive the
assault, and the effects of that pollution will be felt world-wide,
in terms of the products as well as the air we breathe. I would not
choose Chinese meat at this point.


ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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8c. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

Ginny -
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for one minute saying that meat from China is as safe as meat from within our own continent. And, I haven't purchased rabbit from this supplier since I saw this packaging.
I'm just relaying, from someone who knows what is going on within the meat packing industry, that meats within this country are routinely being placed in chemical cocktailes designed to extend the shelf life of the meat, at the expense of the health of an unknowing public.
I, for one, am searching out alternative sources of meat for my furbabies along with protein sources for my husband and me.
And, if you want to trust governmental controls, simply look at the health care industry and the push for vaccines:) 'Nuf said.
Caren

ginny wilken <gwilken@alamedanet.net> wrote:

On Dec 30, 2007, at 4:20 AM, Caren OConnor wrote:

> I suppose we can't rest assured that our meat is any safer than
> the imported meats.

Oh, I think we can! It's not hard, first of all, to find reputable
meat sources in this country; there are more alternatives all the
time, at various levels. And we DO have governmental controls which
are at least observed by many. China, OTOH, is egregiously in
violation of even the most basic and moral standards in treatment and
concern for its inhabitants, let alone the crop animals. The whole
country is rapidly becoming so polluted it may not survive the
assault, and the effects of that pollution will be felt world-wide,
in terms of the products as well as the air we breathe. I would not
choose Chinese meat at this point.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "zcdz@aol.com" zcdz@aol.com zziska
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

I can get twice as much free range chicken and dehydrate it myself as
dehydrated chicken from China at the same price. I know, we're not talking dehydrated
here- but there seems to be a new craze for dehydrated buckets of chicken at
various stores (Farmers Coop and Pet stores).

For anyone who doubts the possible trouble with meat processing I recommend
"Fast Food Nation" - the potential for less than healthy meat distribution is
really astounding. Who knows what the feed is? Who knows what the butchering
process is? Who knows the cleanliness of the processing plants? That doesn't
even get into the trade issues... we're just talking quality of product. There is
some control over quality of product in the US and the European/UK markets-
outside that there is very little.

If the whole idea is to feed our furry family with the same care as we feed
ourselves then no, no meat from China or any other unregulated meat source. I
want to know that the meat hasn't been fed lead laced grain products.

JM2¢

Ziska
www.ziskac.blogspot.com


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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

8e. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:29 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello-I noticed inexpensive rabbit and lamb today at my neighborhood
independent grocery store (Chicago, USA). I live in an area with a big
immigrant population. Both packages said that the meat was "made in
China." I'm wondering if there is any meat from any country that we
should avoid purchasing? I was just thinking that perhaps China
wouldn't have the same standards, ie .. human grade, given their
recent issues. Thanks a bunch ... I'm learning so much from you all!
Amy (and Rosie)
>

My grocery store (Schnuck's, pretty common in MO and maybe even IL)
sold rabbit from China for 2.99/lb. The package said "Chinese Rabbit"
BUT when the pet food recall happened and then started leaking over to
human foods from China, the store pulled the rabbit FIRST and
immediately and will not reorder it ever. I asked about it one day (I
didn't buy them out.. should have but I figured they'd have it always)
and when the guy went back to ask the manager if they could order me
some more he came back and told me they will not reorder it as it's
from China and that they were worried it could make people sick. My
dog was fine on it.

Heather


Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

9. Chicken leg quarters...
Posted by: "tinypaws.rm" tigerladytx@tx.rr.com tinypaws.rm
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

On sale @ Kroger (at least in the Dallas area it is) for $3.90 for
10/lb bag with your plus card thru 1/2/08. I bought 120lbs yesterday.
3rd day of raw feeding. 2 APBT females ages 4 & 5, 1 mini Border
Collie male age 11 - all neutered. Eating like champs.

~Tiger

Messages in this topic (1)
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10.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

Tracy,
My Borzois hate chicken liver but adore beef liver. Thus, I give them
beef liver.
Tasha spits the chicken liver out on the floor. If i bribe her with a
pork steak she will give in.
Dogs much like humans have food likes and dislikes.

Sai
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*


Messages in this topic (46)
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11. Re: meat from china/Seafood preservative??
Posted by: "Suzanne Maxine Uzoff" muzoff@sbcglobal.net maxineuzoff
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: please take this discussion private or to raw chat. No more messages of this type will make it through moderation. with thanks. ++++++++++++++++


Since you mentioned this, I will have to add that on four different occasions spanning three years, my partner and I have gotten either hives, or diahrea and or vomiting after eating farm raised & wild caught salmon we bought from several national chain groceries. After reflecting on the incidence we recalled that had a shiney look to it, something oily looking to enhance the appearance so it seemed. None of the butchers at the store admitted to knowing anything about it but Ive heard of this practice and cant seem to find out much about what the product is they are putting on the seafood. Ive even seen shrimp with that glazed look on it. It keeps the fishy smell down too we noticed. We the people are all being poisoned for the sake of commercial profit. ONe of these days this practice will come to light and it will become public knowledge after enough people have reactions to it. If anyone knows what it is theyre using I for one would certainly like to hear what you know.
New list member,
Maxine Uzoff
Oui Bostons

Just as an aside, a friend of ours is a waterman. He shared of the chemicals into which certain seafood is dipped in order to extend shelf life. He also said this is regularly being done by food retailers to foods we buy. I suppose we can't rest assured that our meat is any safer than the imported meats.
Caren O'Connor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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12.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:29 pm ((PST))


This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com


Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (125)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:29 pm ((PST))


Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

List members who do not trim their posts will be placed on moderation.


**********PLEASE SIGN YOUR MAILS

This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

********NO MONSTER SIGNATURES PLEASE!
Several lines are ok but nothing over 4 lines please.
(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)


*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
and save money for those folks who must PAY for their Internet by the amount of time they are on line.

Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
Posted by: "jordan_spiva" jordan_spiva@yahoo.com jordan_spiva
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:50 pm ((PST))

I just ordered a pack of whole rabbit carcasses from hare-today
website. They all range from 2-3 pounds. Will my 28 pound dog be able to handle that?
from
Jordan Spiva

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

14b. Re: is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:59 pm ((PST))

On Dec 30, 2007 3:42 PM, jordan_spiva <jordan_spiva@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just ordered a pack of whole rabbit carcasses from hare-today
> website. They all range from 2-3 pounds. Will my 28 pound dog be able to
handle that?
> from
> Jordan Spiva

The short answer is "He'll tell you." Personally, I think the most natural
way to feed is throw some huge animal at your dog and let them go at it. If
he wants to gorge, let him. When he's full and tired he'll stop eating.
He'll lay around looking pregnant and digesting happily for days. This is
of course if your dog is digestively normal and strong. If he's weak and
prone to vomiting and diarrhea he may need more careful introduction of
foods.

Karen
--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
LID 8/23/07
LOA 11/9/07
TA 12/6/07
CA 01/14/08 @ 10:30am
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

14c. Re: is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:31 pm ((PST))

haha, i subscribe to a house rabbit yahoo group too(i have house rabbits), and i thought this was from that group, and almost freaked.
i thought someone was trying to feed their dog their pet rabbits......
ok, your dog should have no problem eating those rabbits, they likely won't finish, btu they can tackle it. If you want to chop it in half just to be sure, that's fine too.
mallory


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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

14d. Re: is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:31 pm ((PST))

I gave my shih tzus a 3kg turkey over Christmas. They were thrilled to
bits. I let them at it one at a time. After 3 days, no more turkeyLOL
Renate

On 12/30/07, jordan_spiva <jordan_spiva@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I just ordered a pack of whole rabbit carcasses from hare-today
> website. They all range from 2-3 pounds. Will my 28 pound dog be able to
> handle that?
> from
> Jordan Spiva
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

14e. Re: is this rabbit too big for my dog to eat?
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:30 pm ((PST))

I just brought back 8 wild rabbits from the east coast for my French Bulldogs. I cut them in
four...which means I get 4 meals out of every wabbit!
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15. Introducing organs
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:32 pm ((PST))

Week five on raw begins tomorrow, and all is well. Foxy has had
chicken, turkey, pork, sardines, beef, and beef heart (this last in
limited quantities, never as a whole day's ration.) Sophie has had
chicken, turkey, pork, a sardine or two, and is beginning to get
beef. Her stools have normalized, but I still don't want to rush
her, since it took so long to get her past the initial cannon butt.

My question is, how do I go about introducing organs? I feel that
Foxy is ready, and Sophie will be soon. I have a few things already,
some that I bought and froze a couple of weeks ago, and some that I
found today. (Organs, other than giblets and liver, are not always
readily available here, so I get them when I can, even if not for
immediate use.) I will probably use the giblets mostly for my cats,
or for treats, since they are so small. Other than that, I have beef
liver, of course, heart, kidney, and today's find, beef sweetbreads.
Should I introduce these items one at a time, as I did with the
meats? Also, is this a decent variety of organs at this point? Are
there any things that are extra good that I should look for?

Thanks!

Wendy

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

16. Another newbie with questions!
Posted by: "noahsmom8497" noahsmom8497@yahoo.com noahsmom8497
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:30 pm ((PST))

Okay, is it "safe" to get the meat from a grocery store or butcher?
Are there concerns that at some time the meat was at too low of a
temperature since stores & butchers assume their meat will be
thoroughly cooked?
Also where do you feed your dogs? My puppy tends to drag stuff out of
her bowl and take it somewhere else. I don't want raw meat on the
floor of my house! Do you feed them outside?
I read something about feeding the dog the same huge chuck of meat 3x a
day. Where do you put it inbetween feedings? Sorry if some of this
sounds dumb. This is all VERY new to me. I'll continue to search and
read but any help is appreciated! Julie (Mom to Sadie, 13 week old
labradoodle)

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12435

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: meat from china
From: Laurie Swanson
1b. Re: meat from china
From: Caren OConnor
1c. Re: meat from china
From: homesforallpets
1d. Re: meat from china
From: Debi C

2. re e coli
From: tantelin22@aol.com

3. our new Great Dane puppy
From: Becky Brooks (Marsh)

4. quail
From: killarneykateau

5a. Re: pro-raw vets
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

6a. Re: Chew Toys etc
From: homesforallpets


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:13 am ((PST))

I would love to hear if anyone knows anything about this, too. I was
recently looking at meat from a goat ranch here in the US and they make
a point on their web site about it being domestic and allude to bad
things being done elsewhere. I haven't looked into it any further yet.

Thanks,

Laurie

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:24 am ((PST))

Laurie -
I sometimes order rabbit in bulk and saw on the box that the origination was China. I don't have conclusive evidence that this is bad for my dogs, but, erring on the side of caution, I've not bought rabbit like that since. I would also appreciate if anyone has evidence that this meat is safe for our dogs. Where would one find this information, anyway?
Just as an aside, a friend of ours is a waterman. He shared of the chemicals into which certain seafood is dipped in order to extend shelf life. He also said this is regularly being done by food retailers to foods we buy. I suppose we can't rest assured that our meat is any safer than the imported meats.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com> wrote:
I would love to hear if anyone knows anything about this, too. I was
recently looking at meat from a goat ranch here in the US and they make
a point on their web site about it being domestic and allude to bad
things being done elsewhere. I haven't looked into it any further yet.

Thanks,

Laurie


---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:21 am ((PST))


> Hello-I noticed inexpensive rabbit and lamb today at my neighborhood
independent grocery store (Chicago, USA). I live in an area with a big
immigrant population. Both packages said that the meat was "made in
China."

Remember the pet food recall not that long ago? Most the ingredients
came from China and other overseas places. Support USA raised
Rabbit. Got to www.arba.net and look up breeders in your area. Many
ARBA members are willing to sell to raw feeders. I also know there
are several Meat breeders in Illinois.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: meat from china
Posted by: "Debi C" dcole6@satx.rr.com scarlet_debi
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:25 am ((PST))

This may sound like a predjudiced answer, but right now I wouldn't buy
a battery that was made in china much less food for my loved ones.

Two years ago several hundred American horses died from contaminated
food. Then we got the same thing in our Dog and Cat food. I recently
read that their own people were haveing problems with these issues in
their homeland.

They have a very poor inspection system for exporting food. There's a
big thing right now on the Chicken tenders dog chewies.

I know we don't feed these things, but it has certainly made me very
leary of any food product from China or anywhere else.

We have lots of American and Canadian Farmers who are trying to make a
go of it. I'm just going to buy American. We have 2 sayings down here
in Texas. One is that you get what you pay for and the other is If it
seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Debi, 2 Jacks and an App.


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...> wrote:
>
> Hello-I noticed inexpensive rabbit and lamb today at my neighborhood
independent grocery store (Chicago, USA). I live in an area with a big
immigrant population. Both packages said that the meat was "made in
China." I'm wondering if there is any meat from any country that we
should avoid purchasing? I was just thinking that perhaps China
wouldn't have the same standards, ie .. human grade, given their
recent issues. Thanks a bunch ... I'm learning so much from you all!
Amy (and Rosie)
>


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2. re e coli
Posted by: "tantelin22@aol.com" tantelin22@aol.com tantelindar
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:14 am ((PST))




She said there are a study that came out about 2 years ago proving that raw
fed dogs shed salmonella in their pooh, but kibble fed dogs don't.


=-=============
I haven't seen any studies, but E.coli is an intestinal bacteria; shedding
it in feces is biologically normal. And I imagine most of us are bright
enough to wash our hands after cleaning up after our dogs. And most of our dogs
aren't allowed to walk around the house after having rolled in their own
waste, so the risk of exposure seems vanishingly rare as long as one comes from a
planet that has soap and water.

There are something like 10,000 different species of E.coli but only five
can make humans sick and only one, 0157:H7, regularly kills.




<======================================== >
Blessed Be with An Honorable Peace!
Tante Lin

Maxine is my Hero! She says:
My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice.
Don't let aging get you down: it's too hard to get back up!
If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You have another chance!
<===>


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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. our new Great Dane puppy
Posted by: "Becky Brooks (Marsh)" kidcreations1@yahoo.com kidcreations1
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:32 am ((PST))

HI everyone! Wanted to let you know that the puppy we bought on
Christmas eve and brought home 2 days ago has taken to raw feeding
immediately. I was worried that I would have to transition her over
from kibble slowly since she's already 7 months old, but she knew
exactly what to do with the chicken leg quarters and absolutley loves
them! She even eats very neatly in the kitchen, unlike my other dogs!
Thanks for all who responded - your advice was much appreciated.
Becky Brooks PS: Her distended tummy was due to worms and being
overweight, so that's being taken care of!

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4. quail
Posted by: "killarneykateau" catherin@vicnet.net.au killarneykateau
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:32 am ((PST))

I came across a butcher that sells packages of frozen quail for human consumption. Would
they be okay for my 15 kilo shih-tzu X maltese? She usually eats chicken carcasses, rabbit,
lamb shanks. Thanks for the help recently in getting her settled with rabbits, by the way.
Catherine


Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: pro-raw vets
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:10 am ((PST))

+++MOd note: please take this discussion off list. +++++++


Re: Antibiotics are rarely given. (to chickens)....

WHAT!!!!????

Can we PLEASE stick to information about feeding and, unless specific
sources are referenced, not be promoting factory farmed meat? AND, please, there
ARE issues merit consideration...after all...would we want OUR animals treated
the way food-destined animals are treated for the "cheap?"

I do my best to balance my dog's needs against my ethical values and it's
tough at best, especially on a very limited budget. But I don't make excuses
for my decisions and try to talk myself out of what I know about where the
food-animals come from.

And finally, just because something's "illegal" doesn't mean it's not
happening. Sorry. And companies that work to promote responsible animal husbandry
and encourage buyers to support that deserve to say so.

errgggghhhh

Carol

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Chew Toys etc
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:37 am ((PST))


> And what are some healthy appropriate toys for her especially for
> chewing while teething? What have you had positive experiences with
> in the toy department? Nylabones, Kongs etc.
>
> TIA
> Callista
>

My dogs are 4 and 5 months old. They get squeeky toys (rubber),
nylabones (the smaller dog) and rope toys. Do not give rawhide, VERY
risky. Avoid smoked bones (they splinter). And nothing that is
cloth based unless you take it away when you are not wtching them.
Be sure to check toys for damage everyday and throw away ones tht
make you think the pup might swallow them. I also give tennis ball
just a bit bigger than the dog's mouths. They can't swallow them
that way. Of course with puppies you have to watch for time to get
bigger ones as they grow.

Have fun with your new addition!

Kathy in MO
Angel & Holly - dogs Oreo & Turquoise - cats

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12434

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: New Member intro with question
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: New Member intro with question
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: New Member intro with question
From: Nanette
1d. Re: New Member intro with question
From: carnesbill
1e. Re: New Member intro with question
From: Sandee Lee

2.1. Re: bone
From: Sandee Lee
2.2. Re: bone
From: Laura Atkinson
2.3. Re: bone
From: Heather
2.4. Re: bone
From: T Smith
2.5. Re: bone
From: Ania Tysarczyk
2.6. Re: bone
From: Sandee Lee
2.7. Re: bone
From: Ania Tysarczyk

3a. Re: Chew Toys etc
From: Laura Atkinson

4a. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
From: Giselle

5.1. Re: Hi everyone!/teeth cleaning from bone, skin, etc.
From: Laurie Swanson

6a. Re: pro-raw vets
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: pro-raw vets
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: vets
From: Giselle
7b. Re: vets
From: jhusselstein
7c. Re: vets
From: Monica Hughes

8a. Re: Little poo question
From: costrowski75

9.1. Re: Hi everyone!
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: skin/fat on pork shoulder plus question.
From: costrowski75

11. meat from china
From: Amy T

12. Pickey eating and Horking it back up, Silly story and questions :)
From: redangelbordeaux


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:46 pm ((PST))

"nanettechols" <nanettechols@...> wrote:
We started our two dogs this week on
> chicken backs and trying to get vegies down. One loves everything, one
> is very picky.
*****
Chicken backs aren't very much food for big dogs. Consider adding meat
to the meals, or including a meaty meal along the way. And don't sweat
the veggies, they're neither necessary nor recommended. You are
feeding wolves walkin' around in St. Bernard clothes--no veggies
required.

Picky is typically made not born, so you and the dog may have to
unlearn some bad habits.


> My meat connection is going to be slaughtering a ewe - mutton. Is this
> okay for the dogs?
*****
This is lovely dog food. However, it's kind of early to be thinking
mjutton, especially since you've already indicated some upset. Can you
lay claim to this great stuff, then stash it for later? It would be a
shame to pass it up, but feeding it right now may be counterproductive.

Welcome.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:53 pm ((PST))

Nanette,

Backs are too bony...you need to add meat...and forget the veggies! Dogs
eat meat, very little bone, a bit of organs...and no veggies! :) Mutton is
great!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "nanettechols" <nanettechols@gmail.com>

I have two St. Bernards and one St. Something along with two cats. One
of the Saints is a foster. We started our two dogs this week on
chicken backs and trying to get vegies down. One loves everything, one
is very picky.


Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "Nanette" nanettechols@gmail.com nanettechols
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

> Chicken backs aren't very much food for big dogs. Consider adding meat
> to the meals, or including a meaty meal along the way.
I just landed some turkey backs - they look very meaty along with lots
of necks. Would this be considered more meaty?


> And don't sweat the veggies, they're neither necessary nor recommended.
Yippee - they are a pain.

> Picky is typically made not born, so you and the dog may have to unlearn some bad habits.

I laughed out loud! He has always been picky - he's very skinny - but
I do know he works it to his advantage sometimes. (;-)

> This is lovely dog food. However, it's kind of early to be thinking
> mjutton, especially since you've already indicated some upset. Can you
> lay claim to this great stuff, then stash it for later?

I think I can ask him to wait for a bit. How long do you think I need
to go with the the poultry before I slip in something else. I was
thinking hamburger or?

None of them are having upset - no diarrhea, no vomiting - just
refusing the veggies!

Thank you very much!
Nanette


Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nanettechols" <nanettechols@...>
wrote:
>
> We started our two dogs this week on
> chicken backs and trying to get vegies down. One loves
> everything, one is very picky.

Mo need for veggies. Dogs are carnivores and as such only need
meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. All the
nutrients they need are contained in those 3 items. If you have had
a week of raw feeding without digestive upset, it is time to start
adding new protein sources. I suggest adding one every week or so.
You could add turkey or pork next. After those two have been
successfully added to the diet, try fish, then beef. If all is OK,
THEN maybe try a bit of mutton in small amounts at first.

In a few months you can feed as much mutton as you want but for now,
I doubt your dog's digestive system's have been built up enough to
handle them.

> So far not too much upset.

My guess is that if you eliminate the veggies, the upset will
completely go away. For the first few months I fed raw, my dogs
would get diarrhea after every veggie meal. I stopped veggies after
about 5 or 6 months and not one case of diarrhea since.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:13 pm ((PST))

Nanette,

You will never find a meaty poultry neck or back. Think 80% meat and then
look at those backs and necks. Not even close, eh??? :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Nanette" <nanettechols@gmail.com>


> I just landed some turkey backs - they look very meaty along with lots
> of necks. Would this be considered more meaty?

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:51 pm ((PST))

Ania,

I think the bigger question is if too much bone is being fed what is it
replacing? Generally meat and fat, which is the majority of a carnivore's
diet.

Small animals and birds, fed in their entirety, still fit into the same
%'s...
http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/nutrition/tissue_percentage_of_common_prey.htm

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net>

I try to mimic the amount you would find in a wild small animal or
bird, but I probably feed more than that feeding a very boney meal 2-
3 times a week. Though too much bone has not be a concern to me. But
I keep hearing about too much bone in the diet, so I thought you'd
be a good person to ask.


Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________

2.2. Re: bone
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:04 pm ((PST))

If you're a breeder, one of the consequences of too much bone is that the
parathyroid gland and the serum (blood) calcium levels can be all out of
whack causing uterine inertia during labor and eclampsia after whelping.

In the rest of the dog population, if you're feeding too much bone, you're
shorting the diet meat and organs (probably). While bone has nutrition
(minerals, etc), meat should be the primary ingredient in the meal
planning.


--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________

2.3. Re: bone
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> I would say most likely you are feeding too much bone. What
exactly are you
> feeding, Heather?

The low bone/boneless meals are pork (cut off from a picnic roast)
and buffalo fish fillets. I did have some boneless venison scraps
but they are gone now (he ate on that "batch" for a year and we got
fresh deer ribs a month ago). He eats deer ribs, ox tails on
occasion, chicken, turkey, eggs, whole trout, duck, beef heart,
chicken gizzards/hearts/liver, game hens. I'm hoping to get him on
rabbit again that's fresh and not from the grocery store. He used to
eat rabbit with gusto and then he stopped. Won't eat frog legs
either. He eats lamb too but I haven't bought any for a long time as
it's expensive. I am hoping to split a goat carcass with someone as
well.. just trying to figure when they need it because it cannot all
fit in my freezer!

Heather

Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________

2.4. Re: bone
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:38 pm ((PST))

The reason we were told to adjust our dog's diets with more bone was because
their daily watery poop was taking away alot more than a little extra bone
would. The extra bone (like a turkey neck) was making their poop normal
again.
I guess we have to make choices based on our individual pet's needs.
I was worried about it, but this was what was the overall consensus for my 3
dogs' diet.
Hope that makes sense.
Trina
Not a breeder :-)

On Dec 29, 2007 7:04 PM, Laura Atkinson <llatkinson@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you're a breeder, one of the consequences of too much bone is that
> the
> parathyroid gland and the serum (blood) calcium levels can be all out of
> whack causing uterine inertia during labor and eclampsia after whelping.
>
> In the rest of the dog population, if you're feeding too much bone, you're
> shorting the diet meat and organs (probably). While bone has nutrition
> (minerals, etc), meat should be the primary ingredient in the meal
> planning.
>
> --
> Laura A
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________

2.5. Re: bone
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:38 pm ((PST))

I see your point. I recall seeing a chart similar to that but also
comparing our domestic food animals like chickens and it actually
showed that chickens and such had much more % bone (due to being
bred like that) than the wild rodents/birds. It was quite
interesting. I saw it when I was a newby to raw and afraid not to
feed enough bone and it was an eye opener. It made me relax more
about their diets.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Ania,
>
> I think the bigger question is if too much bone is being fed what
is it
> replacing? Generally meat and fat, which is the majority of a
carnivore's
> diet.
>
> Small animals and birds, fed in their entirety, still fit into the
same
> %'s...
>

http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/nutrition/tissue_percentage_of_common
_prey.htm
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang


Messages in this topic (31)
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2.6. Re: bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:01 pm ((PST))

I've heard just the opposite...that they are bred with more meat.
However, those %'s depend upon whole vs. dressed birds...makes a huge
difference.

Regardless, poultry is about nonexistent in a carnivore's diet. We need to
concentrate on their normal prey which are the large
ungulates....approximately 80% meat and 10% edible bone.

Meat protein is the most important part of the diet and responsible for
proper muscle and other tissue development.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net>


I see your point. I recall seeing a chart similar to that but also
comparing our domestic food animals like chickens and it actually
showed that chickens and such had much more % bone (due to being
bred like that) than the wild rodents/birds. It was quite
interesting. I saw it when I was a newby to raw and afraid not to
feed enough bone and it was an eye opener. It made me relax more
about their diets.


Messages in this topic (31)
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2.7. Re: bone
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:38 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Hi Laura,

So they can actually absorb too much calcium from bone. Being a
person who is always convincing people around me to feed raw, I like
to have my information straight..LOL, so that is good to know.

My own dogs diets, I'm pretty lax about how I feed. I defrost a
baggie of whatever and feed till it's gone figuring the percentages
will work themselves out. For example, the last 2 days, they got
duck hearts, today pork brisket meaty bones, tomorrow boneless
fish....then a boneless meal, then a meal or two of chicken necks
etc...They will get the liver from the chicken I cooked today.

Their bloodwork is good after 4 1/2 years of eating like that, but I
still can't help but feel that it is still more bone than they would
get in the wild.

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> If you're a breeder, one of the consequences of too much bone is
that the
> parathyroid gland and the serum (blood) calcium levels can be all
out of
> whack causing uterine inertia during labor and eclampsia after
whelping.
>
> In the rest of the dog population, if you're feeding too much
bone, you're
> shorting the diet meat and organs (probably). While bone has
nutrition
> (minerals, etc), meat should be the primary ingredient in the meal
> planning.
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (31)
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3a. Re: Chew Toys etc
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:00 pm ((PST))

Feeding a puppy is FUN! You'll be feeding him 2%-3% of his anticipated
adult weight (it's a guesstimate) and adjusting up or down based on how the
puppy looks. I let my puppies get a little pudgy, because they seem to do
overnight growth spurts and the pudge disappears. Not fat though!

Divide the daily amount into 2-3 meals. If she has consistently loose
stools, cut back the amount fed each meal and add a snack to make up the
difference.

I'm one of those who lets their dogs have nylabones to chew on/play with.
My dogs love 'em, so there are always some laying around. Once they start
biting off pieces, I toss 'em and replace.

Teething is so easy with raw-fed puppies it's practically a non-issue. I
learn that someone is loosing teeth when there's blood on the hair of hte
dog they're wrestling with. And when the rear molars are breaking, they
tend to avoid eating bone for a few days. You've not seen anything until
you've seen a puppy completely strip a turkey neck to the bone...it's
something to watch!


On Dec 29, 2007 4:53 PM, pgmgolfcoach <pgmgolfcoach@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have 2 questions,
>
> With a raw diet what difference is their between feeding a puppy and
> an adult? Its so easy to find info regarding the awful kibble diet,
> but not so much with raw feeding to puppies.
>
> And what are some healthy appropriate toys for her especially for
> chewing while teething? What have you had positive experiences with
> in the toy department? Nylabones, Kongs etc.
>
> TIA
> Callista


--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: New Member Saying Hi!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:06 pm ((PST))

Hi, Heather!
Try your local FreeCycle or craigslist for a cheap or free
freezer (or two!)
http://www.freecycle.org/
http://www.craigslist.org/about/sites.html

http://www.freesharing.org

http://www.sharingisgiving.org

http://www.reuseitnetwork.org/
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


On Dec 29, 2007 5:25 PM, Heather <sansdawn@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
> My name is Heather and I live in NH with my Darling Husband, Son and 2
> Great Danes. Emmee we have had the longest, she is currently my
> Service Dog, Shelly is our rescue girl and newest family member. After
> being a SAHM for 3 years, I finally got back to the working field, and
> I'm finding some difficulties with keeping up with the raw diets :( We
> currently have only the kitchen freezer for storage, I keep trying to
> talk hubby into a chest freezer, but so far no luck.. I would love any
> and all suggestions!!
>
> Dane Hugs,
> Heather
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5.1. Re: Hi everyone!/teeth cleaning from bone, skin, etc.
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

Hi Heather,

Tougher skin (other than chicken/turkey) like from goats or pigs or
other animals does a great job of cleaning teeth. If you watch a dog
chew this, you will see how it gets up and around the teeth and gums--
it is difficult for them to rip apart and dismantle and as they work at
it, it cleans and massages. Even a big hunk of boneless, skinless
roast does some of this as they rip and tear and gnaw at it. Also
larger, more complicated parts like a goat leg where they have to
really sink their teeth in and tackle it from different angles. It's
quite amazing to watch and is really different from feeding smaller,
easier-to-eat items.

Bones are good for making the meal more challenging, and interesting,
and providing essential nutrients, and I think some abrasion is good--
especially when they're not completely bare bones. But if you're
talking about lots of gnawing and grinding on bare bones being good for
teeth, I don't think so. Is that what you meant? That means the bone
is probably too dense for the dog's teeth and could cause wear or
breakage. Just my opinion, but sadly, my dog does have 2 chipped teeth
from when I used to give him cow and buffalo marrow bones that he'd
work on for hours or days. Forgive me if that's not the kind of
abrasion you're referring to--I just wanted to clarify and add some
thoughts.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Heather" <newbeginnings06@...>
wrote:
I have also read the thing that cleans teeth is abrasion, such as from
> bones. I don't believe meats or skin provide that.

Messages in this topic (31)
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6a. Re: pro-raw vets
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Monica Hughes <monicabeth10@...>
wrote:
>
> I found a website listing "pro-raw" and "OK with raw" vets
> nationwide. Where I live in Colorado, there are no vets
> listed as "pro-raw."

That website, while very good and getting better all the time, is a
very incomplete list. The only way the list knows about the vets is
for someone to write in and tell them. When you find a "pro-raw"
vet, if you don't let that list know, the vet won't be on the list.

> Incidentally, I picked up chicken leg quarters for 60 cents#
> today at Target!

You should be able to get them at Walmart for around 47 cents#
everyday.

Hormone and antibiotic free.

All chicken is hormone and antibiotic free. It is against the law
to give hormones and steriods to chickens in the USA. Antibiotics
are rarely given. It's also against the law to advertise them that
way because it would make people think there is something special
about that particular chicken, just as it did you.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: pro-raw vets
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:23 pm ((PST))

Monica Hughes <monicabeth10@...> wrote:
> Incidentally, I picked up chicken leg quarters for 60 cents# today at
Target! Hormone and antibiotic free. (It was the last package,
though!) Who woulda thunk it? :)
*****
All chicken sold in the US must be antibiotic and hormone free. Tis
the law. So even Target would have to sell the stuff. The question is
whether the quarters were enhanced or unenhanced. Probably enchanced.
Almost certainly.

That may or may not matter to you, it matters variously to others.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: vets
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:21 pm ((PST))

Hi, Deb!
Not to go OT on the OP topic, but your vet doesn't need to know
about the barfy style diet in order to understand how you feed - you don't
feed veggies, grains, fruits and supps, do you?

On this list, we call it raw feeding - 'cause we just feed lots of meat, a
little edible bone and a little organ - thats what a species appropriate
whole prey model diet is.

Why not educate her about REAL raw feeding? ^_^

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301

The Merck Veterinary Manual: "The carbohydrates added to pet foods are
mainly in the form of polysaccharides (starch and cellulose),
disaccharides (sucrose and lactose), and monosaccharides (glucose and
fructose). Carbohydrates are a less expensive source of energy than
fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be **no dietary requirement
for carbohydrate**."

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


<snip>
>
> My new vet said she does not know a lot about the BARF diet, but that she
> is trying to learn more about it and anything I can give her would be
> appreciated. She also said she does have a few clients who have there dogs
> on BARF as well as ones that have recently changed to, and that those are
> some of the dogs that are in the best of health. She said, she would rather
> not have someone need to bring there dog to the vet because it was sick. So
> I am lucky. I have given her some info that I have and she was really
> appreciative of that.
>


> <snip>
> Blessed Be
> Deb
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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7b. Re: vets
Posted by: "jhusselstein" jhusselstein@yahoo.com jhusselstein
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:39 pm ((PST))


Now, I know nothing about how the Math is done in these studies, but it
seems to me that if 80% of the raw food had S. but only 30% of the raw
fed stool samples had S.there you could derive a conclusion supporting
the efficiency of a dog's digestion!
Jessica

Messages in this topic (19)
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7c. Re: vets
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:13 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: all emails MUST be signed+++++++++++++


"Since no one in the raw (non-commercial)
community makes money when they educate others about proper nutrition,
there is none to be put up for a study on raw. Just alone, the Rabies
Challenge Fund needs 1.25 million for it's 5 and 7 year study on the
DOI for the rabies vaccine. I cannot imagine the amount of money
needed to study numerous dogs for their lifetime on a raw diet."

Actually, there are people who are making money on raw diets. The people who are selling the meat. I would think farmers, meat distributors, etc. would have a huge interest in promoting raw diets. Just look at how commercialized the whole organic food movement has become. Sure, the people on the ground who sell meat are legion compared to the very few corporate dog food execs. and they're not going to make millions. Still, if I was in the meat business, I'd be doing all I could to promote raw. What a great way to make money. Indeed, meat suppliers are now catering to raw feeders. And my guess is that once the raw feeding movement reaches critical mass, you'll see a whole lot more advertising about it.

Furthermore, while doing controlled experimental studies to compare raw and kibble fed dogs would be immoral, it wouldn't really take a whole lot of money to do an observational study over time based on past experiences. All kinds of studies are published in medical journals in this fashion, where they survey the patient's medical records and current condition and tie that to variables such as diet, exercise, etc. Imagine a survey in which people are simply polled about their dogs' health and feeding habits, and those are matched against the vet records. This type of research would be a suitable thesis or dissertation project for a grad student, if they could gain access to the data.



---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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8a. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:56 pm ((PST))

Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@...> wrote:
>
> LOL Chris that is what I actually meant. OK I quess I did not say it
well.
*****
Well, sometimes it's hard to know. Some people really do mean grease!
Thanks for setting the record straight.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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9.1. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:12 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> When the dog has the dental problems this one does, he certainly does
> need editable bone every day at least until the problem has cleared
> itself up. He will always need bone more than once a week.
*****
Poppycock.
Cleaning teeth is not just about bone. It's about sinking teeth into
meat all the way up to the gumline, it's about plunging the canines
through skin (pig skin is great), it's about any number of abrasive
actions. A bone that is demolished with two chomps and some saliva is
doing not much to clean teeth. A bone such as this in every meal
simply provides the dog with a lot of bone. Feeding ineffectual bones
to clean teeth is like sucking on a toothbrush. Fat lot of good it
does.

A good, interactive bone several times a week will do a fine job of
scraping the teeth clean, but even it may not clean the gumlines. A
good, interactive bone several times a week plus some good old rip and
tear meat and something for the dog to literally sink its teeth into is
what cleans ALL the teeth.

If one finds oneself feeding bone every day to clean teeth, one should
revaluate the procss. In other words, think again.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (31)
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10a. Re: skin/fat on pork shoulder plus question.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:18 pm ((PST))

"Lynda McLellan" <lyndam950@...> wrote:
>
> My Dane guy will also swallow a whole chicken quarters or a narrow
rack of ribs. So I feed him semi-frozen and he chews it up well.
*****
My Lab and my two goldens also swallow whole chicken quarters and
narrow racks of ribs. So I feed whole chickens and full racks. It's
never been my preference to feed frozen food. Bigger has always served
us well.

Chris O

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11. meat from china
Posted by: "Amy T" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:39 pm ((PST))

Hello-I noticed inexpensive rabbit and lamb today at my neighborhood independent grocery store (Chicago, USA). I live in an area with a big immigrant population. Both packages said that the meat was "made in China." I'm wondering if there is any meat from any country that we should avoid purchasing? I was just thinking that perhaps China wouldn't have the same standards, ie .. human grade, given their recent issues. Thanks a bunch ... I'm learning so much from you all! Amy (and Rosie)

Messages in this topic (1)
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12. Pickey eating and Horking it back up, Silly story and questions :)
Posted by: "redangelbordeaux" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:15 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone!

I've pretty much got the hang of this now but something new will
always come up I'm sure, lol.

I've been feeding my dogs Pork Kidney now for about a month and they
are doing fine with digesting and all, but a few odd behaviors have
happened with 3 out of the 7 :)

4 of them love there kidney, 1-2 chomps if that and it's gone haha.
One girl will take it from me walk away with it shake it a bit then
spit it out and will only eat it when her puppy tries to steal it
for herself. Not to worried about her she does the same thing with
chicken and turkey livers and always eats them eventually, fairly
certain that with her it's just a texture thing
The two that I have some concern about are a male who really HATES
the kidney frozen, partley frozen or thawed he always does the same
thing...take it immedieatly spit it out and then wrinkle his nose
and make the "yuckie face" as if he just got a whiff of a sharpie
pen. If I keep picking it up and hold on to it he will chomp chomp
spit but eventually will get it down but only if I play the game of -
eat this and you get the good stuff- If I just put all the food
outside for him he will eat around the kidney or take it out of his
other food and just leave it there.
Then there is my girl who did the strangest thing tonight. She did
the same behavior as my male - take and drop etc.- eventually gave
up and ate it because she wanted the rest of her dinner. This was
strange for her because she typically will eat her kidney with no
problem and did not observe my males behavior either. So after she
ate I went to put her in the bathroom while I fed another group.
When I returned to her she had horked up her entire dinner and re-
eaten all of it with the exception of the kidney! It was just laying
there in the bathroom floor, a bit shreaded but still staring up at
me in defiance, and I swear my dog was laughing at me!

So I guess this story leads to 2 questions for you all.
How important is kidney for them to eat? I really don't want to get
into the whole "sear it/hide it" game with 7 of them that's way to
much food doctering, lol.
Has anyone else experienced the selective horking up of foods?

The female is in heat and I plan to breed her this time to the male
I mentioned. This will be my first RAW litter and I want to be sure
that the "parents" are getting all the good stuff that they need :)

Thanks in advance for all the input!

Erika


Messages in this topic (1)
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