Feed Pets Raw Food

Sunday, June 24, 2007

Re: [rawfeeding] Raw feeding around small children!

This is nonsense! How is she going to protect the baby from bacteria when
feeding Eagle? Bacteria are everywhere regardless of what is fed.

Trainers oughta stick to training! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cynthia Ewing" <caewing1@yahoo.com>
>
> My daughter is pregnant and feeds her dog raw. I also feed raw to my 6
dogs. She was told by her dog trainer that the risk is too high for children
to get E. Coli or another deadly bacteria when feeding raw around young
kids. She was encouraged to quit feeding raw once the baby is born and she
told me that I will need to do the same in order for her to come to our home
with the baby. She was instructed to get back on a good holistic dog food
such as Eagle. What have any of you heard about raw feeding and risks to
young children. Kathryn stated that she is too afraid that her boxer,
Spencer, will lick the baby and make the baby deathly ill if she continues
with the raw feeding.

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[rawfeeding] My dog is obsessed with bread!

Hello!

I have been feeding my coonhounds raw for a couple of months now and it
is going well.

The only thing I have noticed is that one of them, Bo, is obsessed with
bread. He is constantly trying to steal bread off of the counters or
tables, but doesn't usually try to steal anything else.

Does this mean anything?

Thanks!
Jenn

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[rawfeeding] Raw feeding around small children!

Hi,

My daughter is pregnant and feeds her dog raw. I also feed raw to my 6 dogs. She was told by her dog trainer that the risk is too high for children to get E. Coli or another deadly bacteria when feeding raw around young kids. She was encouraged to quit feeding raw once the baby is born and she told me that I will need to do the same in order for her to come to our home with the baby. She was instructed to get back on a good holistic dog food such as Eagle. What have any of you heard about raw feeding and risks to young children. Kathryn stated that she is too afraid that her boxer, Spencer, will lick the baby and make the baby deathly ill if she continues with the raw feeding.

Cindy Ewing


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[rawfeeding] Re:OT

Carole~

Our hearts and prayers are with you. When we lost our last dog, we
had him cremated and I found a small sterling cannister pendant w/
hearts engraved on it. (much like a prayer box) I put some of
Bailey's ashes in it, and wear it from time to time. We planted a
beautiful spruce tree and put the rest of his ashes around the roots
to nourish it, then hung his ID tag on a branch. I felt it was a nice
way to remember him, and will do the same for each of our dogs as
they cross the Rainbow Bridge. I often think that the grief we feel
when we lose a pet is the price that we pay for having a such
wonderful companion. We never stop missing them, but time will lessen
the pain.

Godspeed~

Misty @ Rodeo Ranch USA
(aka Panzino's Ranch for Wayward Dogs)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cbdjmac@... wrote:
>
> Hi, I know this is off topic
> I just lost my 9 year old boy who had been very healthy.......


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[rawfeeding] Re: Bad Vomit/ Need help

Karole Kridelbaugh <karolek13@...> wrote:
>
> I agree. I feed only one protein, and it is the WILD CAUGHT Jack
Mackeral. It is $1.29 for 15 oz. in a can. My friend said only WILD
CAUGHT, otherwise the fish swim in their own waste. Yikes!
*****
I think all canned mackerel is wild caught. I don't think you have a
choice. Just as canned salmon is wild caught.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Safe place to feed

s lee <lululunge@...> wrote:
> I'd like to switch to raw for my 4.5 month old retriever. However,
I have only hardwood floors - not a surface for raw food. I'm thinking
I could feed her outdoors, but would that be okay in winter?
*****
Sheila, you can feed outside if it works for you and the dog. I do,
but I generally feed my youngsters inside. Many people feed inside and
most of them first lay down a towel or place mat or old blanket or
shower curtain or vinyl tablecloth or tarp as a protective surface. It
is not difficult to teach the dog to stay put and it would not be
unreasonable to expect a dog to stay put.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Carbs?

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Leslie Kopp" <les@> wrote:
> Though supportive, I got the feedback that though
> > dogs(wolves) are carniverous in nature that they are also
scavengers
> by
> > nature which means that they DO eat tubors & fruits, etc in the
wild
> > which means that they SHOULD include these in thier diets & a
pure
> raw
> > meaty bones diet is not balanced... I found it intersting that
she
> > explained it that when meat or a kill was not available they
would
> > scavenge... She explained that my pup would be unbalanced &
> recommened
> > some foods to try & to definately avoid pork.
> *****
>
Human Beings have to resist the notion that somehow feedings,and the
term "balanced" are supposed to go together..this is a human
trait...and does not translate into feeding dogs, no matter how
complicated people want to make it...even we as humans do not
eat "balanced" if we did, we would all be eating 3 squares a day..no
more..no less..exact measured portions...exact caloric intake..this
just isnt reality.

DOGS DO NOT EAT BALANCED this is a fact..throw out your notion of
fruits and veggies....go to the zoo, turn on the tv, watch how
dog/cats eat, they are carnivores...wolves in the wild do not eat
greens, in fact they empty the contents of their killed prys stomach
and eat the stomach its self..this is a proven fact beyond all doubt.
consider this: wild dogs, and wolves will feed on their own dead and
dying not to mention their own feces before resorting to fruits and
veggies the latter is a LAST RESORT.you too would vary from your
regular food and start eating shoe leather if you were hungry
enough..how is that for balance?

Fastwater

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: wondering if to add this?

Far better (and cheaper) to run down to your closest market and buy some
fish or salmon oil. The rest of the oils in those caps are not beneficial
and could prolong skin and coat issues.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Karole Kridelbaugh" <karolek13@yahoo.com>


> My newly-adopted Greyhound "Fields" came to us with "flakey" especially
when he became nervous. My Vet prescribed Skin Formula 3V Caps -- they are
gel caps. I pierce them with a small knife and skirted them on his kibble.
He loves the fish oil. But now he gets the canned, wild caught, Jack
Mackeral once a day. Hopefully, I can stop giving him the gel caps soon.
The gel caps made his coat shiny, and the flakes are not nearly as bad. You
can get the caps through 1-800-PETMEDS less expensively than through a Vet.

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[rawfeeding] Re: Cot liver oil

"rbmc1231937" <rbmc1231937@...> wrote:
>
> Can cot liver oil compere with salmon oil? in nutritional Value, ?
*****
No.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: wondering if to add this?

Karole Kridelbaugh <karolek13@...> wrote:
>
> My newly-adopted Greyhound "Fields" came to us with "flakey"
especially when he became nervous. My Vet prescribed Skin Formula 3V
Caps -- they are gel caps. I pierce them with a small knife and
skirted them on his kibble. He loves the fish oil.
*****
Here are ingredients in 3V oil (The dosage is 1-2 capsules daily for
pets up to 30 lbs, so a greyhound would likely need 4 caps daily):

Guaranteed Analysis (per capsule):
Crude Protein no less than 7%
Crude Fat no less than 90%
Crude Fiber not more than 1%
Moisture not more than 2%
Vitamin E75 IU
Vitamin A1250 IU
Vitamin D125 IU
Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA)103 mg
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)68 mg

Ingredients:
Fish Oil,
Safflower Oil,
Borage Seed Oil,
dl-alpha-Tocopheryl,
Cod Liver Oil,
Acetate (Vitamin E),
Gelatin,
Water,
Glycerin.

This product offers very little EPA and DHA per capsule (a good
reference is 300mg combined total per cap, this offers 171mg per) and
EPA/DHA are the major players in supplmental oil. The safflower oil
and the borage seed oil provide either omega 6 and a precursor to
Omega 3 oil, NEITHER of which efficiently benefits your dog. Your
dog needs zero plant-based dietary oils unless its diet is primarily
grassfed livestock, cold water marine fish and freerange poultry.
Your dog's diet does not need plant-based oils.

Additionally, the source of that ineffectual amount Omega 3 fatty
acid (EPA/DHA) is cod liver, which is generally fed for its vitamin A
and D, neither of which your dog needs. Cod liver oil in limited
quantity is arguably beneficial to dogs with little or no access to
direct sunlight or bood-juicy red meat, but it has to be dosed in
very high amounts in order to provide adequate Omega 3. That much cod
liver oil will deliver far more vitamin A (and possibly D) than your
dog needs.

If you are looking to supplement with Omega 3 fatty acids, then
select a product that delivers functional aounts of EPA and DHA. If
you are looking to supplement the diet with plant-based oils--for the
health of the dog--please reconsider.

If you are looking to add A and D to the diet, first assess need,
then decide if you really have any reason to add more A and D. My
guess is not.

I suggest you re-evaluate your dog's diet and find a good--and
uncomplicated--fish body oil for the Omega 3s your dog needs.
Chris O

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Re: [rawfeeding] Carbs?

Your trainer oughta stick with training and leave nutrition to someone else!
:)) Dogs do not have any requirement for carbs......

The Merck Veterinary Manual

"The carbohydrates added to pet foods are mainly in the form of
polysaccharides (starch and cellulose), disaccharides (sucrose and lactose),
and monosaccharides (glucose and fructose). Carbohydrates are a less
expensive source of energy than fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be
no dietary requirement for carbohydrate."

The Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Nutrition 2nd Edition (1988)

"There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the
dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it
is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the
diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for
glucose is derived."

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Leslie Kopp" <les@robnles.com>
Feeling quite proud that I had already found such a great answer for my
pup I was sure to get a positive response when I explained that my
Charly was raw fed. Though supportive, I got the feedback that though
dogs(wolves) are carniverous in nature that they are also scavengers by
nature which means that they DO eat tubors & fruits, etc in the wild
which means that they SHOULD include these in thier diets & a pure raw
meaty bones diet is not balanced... I found it intersting that she
explained it that when meat or a kill was not available they would
scavenge... She explained that my pup would be unbalanced & recommened
some foods to try & to definately avoid pork.

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Re: [rawfeeding] Now what?

On Jun 24, 2007, at 9:15 AM, Felicia M. Powers wrote:

> Bella and Katie have happily been 100% raw (save for the Cheerios
> they scarf
> up after baby tosses them from his high chair) for a week now.
> They LOVE
> their chicken. I have been feeding mostly chicken quarters, with
> some necks
> and livers added. As a vegetarian, it is REALLY disgusting for me
> to hear
> the crunching of bones as they eat, but they love it so much how
> can I deny
> them?

Beats the heck out of the crunching of the dead carcasses of pets,
sick cows, nackered horses, and garbage animal parts, steamed and
pulverized into unrecognizable slush and mixed with grains and
preservatives, no? You're wise to recognize their nature; that's the
best we can do while we're on the planet.
>
> From what I've read, I can add different sources of protein now -
> is there
> any particular order in which I should introduce meats? I know when
> introducing my son to solids, you are supposed to give certain
> foods first
> and delay certain foods due to concerns about food allergies. Is
> there a
> similar guideline for dogs?

There should be no concern about allergies when all the food is
appropriate. True for well-raised children with intact immune
systems, too.

> I've also heard about feeding raw eggs - how many eggs and how
> often? I
> assume I would feed them shell and all. I searched the message
> archives &
> found 1 member gives their dogs 1 egg a day - does this amount go
> by the
> weight of the dog?

No, it goes more by your pocketbook and the ability of the dog to get
them through the digestive tract without going loose on you. Purely
an owner convenience issue, as the dog doesn't care, and recognizes
eggs as good stuff.

>
> Also, it is well past the time of year that the girls should be
> blowing out
> their coats, but they are shedding LIKE MAD. Are there any foods
> that would
> help with this, or is there a supplement I should add? I'm
> wondering if I
> add fish next, if the omega-3's would help with the shedding. They
> do not
> have dry skin, just insane shedding. More than ever before. I
> read the
> archives and I saw some posts about fish oil supplements. If I
> feed fish,
> do I need fish oil too? If I do add the fish oil, how many mg per lb?
> Bella and Katie are 75 and 50 lbs., respectively.

Fish oil is never a bad idea, and it's a food, so dosage is not at
all critical. They may benefit, but I'm inclined to think the
shedding is the body's response to a diet that doesn't have a whole
lot of toxins which need storing in skin and hair. It should clear
up, and nice hair come in. A few capsules or a spoonful of bulk oil,
daily or a couple of times a week, as Chris said, can never be bad.
>
> Lastly, my lab Bella seems to be more prone to yeast than my
> golden. It
> seems I am forever battling yeast ear infections with her. Would
> adding
> probiotics to her raw diet help that at all? I guess I am thinking
> in the
> world of humans, when baby had thrush the probiotics helped him and
> when us
> ladies deal with the yeastie beastie, we're told to eat yogurt
> everyday for
> the same reason. (Sorry for the TMI, guys!) Can Bella have yogurt
> (I make
> my own from whole raw milk from our cow share) or probiotic
> supplements?
> I'm desperate to get her over these chronic ear infections!


Your lab Bella has her own particular challenges. You need to stop
battling the yeasty appearances; drugs, washes, and goops are mostly
quite suppressive and ultimately counterproductive to health. She
does not need probiotics; this is an internal problem resulting from
system impairment from drugs, vaccines, poor diet, etc., either in
her or her forbears. This is true of humans as well: yeast is a
native inhabitant of all of us, and it goes where it is not wanted
when we are unfit. It's not an adversary; it's the canary in the
mine, and killing it does nothing to address the problem within. She
CAN have raw milk yogurt, but she doesn't need it, and it should be
kept to treat status. I do recommend heartily against any pasteurized
milk products, as they are indigestible and highly inflammatory.

Let the good diet work its ways for a while, and if she is still out
of balance after a few months, we can discuss some further modalities
of treatment. Lay off any flea preventives, HW meds, vaccines, goops,
salves, and, if you like, use a little lavender oil, extract, or
tincture, in an ounce of other good oil, like olive or coconut, to
gently clean and soothe her ears.

ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


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Re: [rawfeeding] Cot liver oil

No, they are not the same at all. Cod liver oil is high in Vitamins A and
D...not vitamins you would want to supplement. Fish or salmon oil is useful
for Omega 3 supplementation.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "rbmc1231937" <rbmc1231937@yahoo.com>


Can cot liver oil compere with salmon oil? in nutritional Value, ?Barb
and Reilly

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Re: [rawfeeding] Safe place to feed

Great idea, Linzi! I like the idea of an old beach towel now that you mention it. My Greyhound won't stand on our laminate floors without rug runners. But a large beach towel would be great for him.

Thank you for the tip!

Big Dog Mom

Linzi Medaris <linzi_loo7@yahoo.com> wrote:
I also have hardwood floors.
Feed her on a shower liner or plastic tablecloth in the house.
I feed outside all year round, it rarely gets freezing cold here though. If it is bitterly cold I will feed on a towel in the kitchen, they learn very quickly to stay on the towel (or whatever) if you take the food away every time they stray away and give it back on the towel.
--Lindsey

s lee <lululunge@yahoo.ca> wrote: Hi, all,

I'd like to switch to raw for my 4.5 month old retriever. However, I have only hardwood floors - not a surface for raw food. I'm thinking I could feed her outdoors, but would that be okay in winter?

Regards,
Sheila

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Bad Vomit/ Need help

Ugh oh. I wonder if my friend knows that.

I'll do better. In Illinois where I was born, Dad use to catch Smelt, those tinie fishies.

My List Stuff <vcassel.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
You're right, wild caught is better than farmed. But canned is cooked,
not raw and not what your dog needs. It's better than k***le, but not
NEARLY as good as tossing your dog a whole, raw fish or other hunk of meat.

New, but embracing raw...
Virginia in Milwaukee

Karole Kridelbaugh wrote:
> I agree. I feed only one protein, and it is the WILD CAUGHT Jack Mackeral. It is $1.29 for 15 oz. in a can. My friend said only WILD CAUGHT, otherwise the fish swim in their own waste. Yikes!
>
> Big Dog Mom
>



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Re: [rawfeeding] Cot liver oil

Dear Barb & Reilly:

Don't know. I do know that fish/fish oils are a great source of omega and fatty acids which are necessary for a shiny coat, and flakeless skin for dogs.

Maybe you could compare the lables of cod and salmon and see what has the highest percentage.

rbmc1231937 <rbmc1231937@yahoo.com> wrote:
Can cot liver oil compere with salmon oil? in nutritional Value, ?Barb
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[rawfeeding] Re: Carbs?

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Kopp" <les@...> wrote:
>
> I found it intersting that she
> explained it that when meat or a kill was not available they would
> scavenge...

*** That is true. I choose to treat my dogs as if they are wolves in a
time of plenty. I suppose some people love their dogs less than I love
mine and prefer to treat them as starving wolves with no prey
available and force them to scavenge on vegetables and fruits and
tubers and such. I'll continue to feed whole prey to the carnivores,
and feed the fruits and veggies to the herbivores, who can both
appreciate and make use of such items.

--Carrie

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Bad Vomit/ Need help

You're right, wild caught is better than farmed. But canned is cooked,
not raw and not what your dog needs. It's better than k***le, but not
NEARLY as good as tossing your dog a whole, raw fish or other hunk of meat.

New, but embracing raw...
Virginia in Milwaukee


Karole Kridelbaugh wrote:
> I agree. I feed only one protein, and it is the WILD CAUGHT Jack Mackeral. It is $1.29 for 15 oz. in a can. My friend said only WILD CAUGHT, otherwise the fish swim in their own waste. Yikes!
>
> Big Dog Mom
>


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Re: [rawfeeding] Safe place to feed

I also have hardwood floors.
Feed her on a shower liner or plastic tablecloth in the house.
I feed outside all year round, it rarely gets freezing cold here though. If it is bitterly cold I will feed on a towel in the kitchen, they learn very quickly to stay on the towel (or whatever) if you take the food away every time they stray away and give it back on the towel.
--Lindsey


s lee <lululunge@yahoo.ca> wrote: Hi, all,

I'd like to switch to raw for my 4.5 month old retriever. However, I have only hardwood floors - not a surface for raw food. I'm thinking I could feed her outdoors, but would that be okay in winter?

Regards,
Sheila



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[rawfeeding] Re: Carbs?

"Margaret" <margaret.abate@...> wrote:
>
> As this was explained to me, dogs do not need carbs, but do need, in
> small amounts, veg & fruit,
*****
It was explained to you wrong. Plain and simple. Can't even give
the advice credit for trying. It's wrong. It's interpreting a dog's
needs through the filter of human physiology. It doesn't work that
way.


give Kiera RMB's in the morning & minced
> meat (ground) in the evening mixed with any veg & fruit,cabbage,
peas,
> carrot, brocoli,basically any veg except onion, plus any fruit i
may
> have, banana, apple,orange, peach etc: done into a gloppy mess in a
> juicer or blender, she also gets garlic 2/3 times a week & 3 eggs a
> week too.
*****
Egad. It's no wonder she's a poor eater. You're barely feeding her
any appropriate food! Of what you list (and such a list it is) only
the mince and the egg are the least bit useful. Are you feeding any
bone at all?

She needs (NEEDS) animal protein and animal fats. Meat, edible bone,
organs. That's it. EVERYthing else is an astonishing
misinterpretation of nature. Dietary carbohydrates are not part of a
dog's nutrition pyramid.


> I am aware this may sound different to your raw feeding, but i live
in
> England & this is the diet as it was explained to me by a friend who
> has been feeding this way for many years, she also weans her pups
onto
> this diet.
*****
Dogs in England are the same (except for, perhaps, their accents) as
dogs in the US and Canada and South America and China and anywhere
else on this planet. They are domesticated carnivorous gray wolves.
If your friend has been feeding this way for years, for years she has
been shortchanging her dogs. Please reconsider allowing her to
shortchange yours.

http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net
http://rawlearning.com
Chris O

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re:OT

On Jun 24, 2007, at 3:31 AM, cbdjmac@aol.com wrote:

> Hi, I know this is off topic
> I just lost my 9 year old boy who had been very healthy.


Oh, God, Carole! You poor thing! You have all our love and sympathy,


ginny and Tomo, old, too.


All stunts performed without a net!


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[rawfeeding] Now what?

Bella and Katie have happily been 100% raw (save for the Cheerios they scarf
up after baby tosses them from his high chair) for a week now. They LOVE
their chicken. I have been feeding mostly chicken quarters, with some necks
and livers added. As a vegetarian, it is REALLY disgusting for me to hear
the crunching of bones as they eat, but they love it so much how can I deny
them?

From what I've read, I can add different sources of protein now - is there
any particular order in which I should introduce meats? I know when
introducing my son to solids, you are supposed to give certain foods first
and delay certain foods due to concerns about food allergies. Is there a
similar guideline for dogs?

I've also heard about feeding raw eggs - how many eggs and how often? I
assume I would feed them shell and all. I searched the message archives &
found 1 member gives their dogs 1 egg a day - does this amount go by the
weight of the dog?

Also, it is well past the time of year that the girls should be blowing out
their coats, but they are shedding LIKE MAD. Are there any foods that would
help with this, or is there a supplement I should add? I'm wondering if I
add fish next, if the omega-3's would help with the shedding. They do not
have dry skin, just insane shedding. More than ever before. I read the
archives and I saw some posts about fish oil supplements. If I feed fish,
do I need fish oil too? If I do add the fish oil, how many mg per lb?
Bella and Katie are 75 and 50 lbs., respectively.

Lastly, my lab Bella seems to be more prone to yeast than my golden. It
seems I am forever battling yeast ear infections with her. Would adding
probiotics to her raw diet help that at all? I guess I am thinking in the
world of humans, when baby had thrush the probiotics helped him and when us
ladies deal with the yeastie beastie, we're told to eat yogurt everyday for
the same reason. (Sorry for the TMI, guys!) Can Bella have yogurt (I make
my own from whole raw milk from our cow share) or probiotic supplements?
I'm desperate to get her over these chronic ear infections!

Thanks in advance for all your help and clarification! I'm really happy to
be giving my dogs the best diet I can!

Felicia

And Bella and Katie :-)

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[rawfeeding] Re:OT

cbdjmac@... wrote:
>
> My heart is broken and I can't seem to stop crying...I miss him so
much that
> I can hardly stand it...when I have had dogs that were old it is
expected it
> is hard but I think the shock of this has been even harder.
>
> Thanks for listening...
> Carole
*****
Oh Carole.
Cry, cry lots, cry as long as you need to. Cry tomorrow, next week.
Cry whenever you think of your sweet boy. It's okay. It's good.

You could probably insist on a necropsy but to what end? If knowing
(assuming a cause would be knowable) will help you through this time,
then it might be useful. But certainly it won't change anything.
Seems like the choice should be yours though, not that of the ER.

When you think of him, think of good times--not just of him dying.
It's really hard to see past the end...but you owe it to him as well
as to yourself. I'm so sorry.
Chris O

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Bad Vomit/ Need help

I agree. I feed only one protein, and it is the WILD CAUGHT Jack Mackeral. It is $1.29 for 15 oz. in a can. My friend said only WILD CAUGHT, otherwise the fish swim in their own waste. Yikes!

Big Dog Mom

Greta Hill <GretaHill@aol.com> wrote:
Can someone please give me advice or encouragment? ... My Collie pup
has been eating raw for two weeks now >>>

Chicken, pork, mackerel, salmon, beef ... Maybe you should slow down
and stick with one protein for the next week.

All my dogs have been given ONE kind of meat the first week. I add a
new meat about every seven days. I had one dog that had some loose
stool and vomiting, so with her when I added a new meat I fed half
chicken and half new meat for several days before going to just the new
meat. No problems at all when I added new stuff that way.

Greta


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[rawfeeding] Cot liver oil

Can cot liver oil compere with salmon oil? in nutritional Value, ?Barb
and Reilly

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[rawfeeding] Re: Carbs?

"Leslie Kopp" <les@...> wrote:
Though supportive, I got the feedback that though
> dogs(wolves) are carniverous in nature that they are also scavengers
by
> nature which means that they DO eat tubors & fruits, etc in the wild
> which means that they SHOULD include these in thier diets & a pure
raw
> meaty bones diet is not balanced... I found it intersting that she
> explained it that when meat or a kill was not available they would
> scavenge... She explained that my pup would be unbalanced &
recommened
> some foods to try & to definately avoid pork.
*****
HOG wash.
They're more than carnivorous in nature. They're carnivorous in
captivity as well. They're carnivores. Not sort of, not almost, not
kind of.

That scavenging wolves/feral dogs can eat enough of whatever to keep
them alive doesn't mean we should or even have the right to feed them
what they are willing to scavenge. There is no logic to this at all.
Wolves have been eating meat and bones (and clearly thriving as a
species on the diet) a lot longer than man has been domesticating
fruits and vegetables. Wolves have been eating meat and bones longer
than man has been producing trash heaps.

This sort of revisionist dietary management falls under either C or D
in an excuse list I cobbled together recently (I rarely quote myself
but I think these work in your situation). Such people:

C. understand completely but believe Ma Nature is wrong (this is
> hubris and if you read Greek mythology, you'll see that hubris
NEVER
> goes unpunished), or
> D. understand completely and concede that Ma Nature is right BUT
feel
> compelled to add their own special footnote to natural history,
for
> whatever reason but probably ego gratification.

And domestic pork is a fine affordable, available and digestible red
meat. Any concerns about trich or other parasites can be put to rest
simply by reviewing posts from the last few days. Um, like yesterday
maybe.

When you get this sort of opposition, ask--nicely of course--for
references. If they are not forthcoming or if they're vague and
amorphous, that tells you something right there. If references are
available and you cannot almost immediately see the flaws, cart the
details to this list and we will find them.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re:OT

I am so very sorry for your loss....and crying is quite alright!
Cling to the wonderful memories you have of him.....our dogs are all
only gifts to us for a time and then they cross the Rainbow
Bridge....but, oh, the things they have given us. We are changed
people because of them.
Penny & The Menagerie

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Trichomonas and pork

Thanks Lora,
I tried a search on the archives first, but I was looking for Trichomonas, not trichonosis. Oops!
Shannon

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re:OT

Carole,

Oh, I'm so sorry. My first thought was bloat/torsion from your
description...but maybe an aneurysm, I don't know. My neighbor's Lab died
very similarly with no real answers, either. The only thing he had in
common with your boy was his age.

It can happen so fast, so very fast. Don't blame yourself at all for this.
There are times when you can do everything right and it doesn't change the
outcome at all.

Know that we're here for you.

Casey


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[rawfeeding] Re: Bad Vomit/ Need help

Well, 'twere me, I'd be laying off the beef until things quiet down.
>
> > Maybe I should have started with boneless chicken? Another forum >
> If she continues to vomit bile and partially digested food (even
> boring stuff like white meat or white fish), you may have to consider
> a vet visit, if you haven't already.
>
> And really try to keep her off the counter.
> Chris O
>
Thanks Chris, this is what I plan to do.

She jumps on the counter when I'm out of the room. Only when she is
very hungry does she try this. We do not allow this......

Funny girl............

Pauline

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: wondering if to add this?

My newly-adopted Greyhound "Fields" came to us with "flakey" especially when he became nervous. My Vet prescribed Skin Formula 3V Caps -- they are gel caps. I pierce them with a small knife and skirted them on his kibble. He loves the fish oil. But now he gets the canned, wild caught, Jack Mackeral once a day. Hopefully, I can stop giving him the gel caps soon. The gel caps made his coat shiny, and the flakes are not nearly as bad. You can get the caps through 1-800-PETMEDS less expensively than through a Vet.

Big Dog Mom

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"addicted 2 my pc" <mmoy1191@...> wrote:
>
> Oh thank you for that, wonder if fish oil cap would be ok too ?
> Jen
*****
Tee hee.
Hard to come up with an occasion occasion on which a fish oil cap would
not be okay.
Chris O


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[rawfeeding] Safe place to feed

Hi, all,

I'd like to switch to raw for my 4.5 month old retriever. However, I have only hardwood floors - not a surface for raw food. I'm thinking I could feed her outdoors, but would that be okay in winter?

Regards,
Sheila


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[rawfeeding] Re: wondering if to add this?

"addicted 2 my pc" <mmoy1191@...> wrote:
>
> Oh thank you for that, wonder if fish oil cap would be ok too ?
> Jen
*****
Tee hee.
Hard to come up with an occasion occasion on which a fish oil cap would
not be okay.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: rest after feeding

"jmwise80" <jmwise80@...> wrote:
>
> Do ya'll keep your dogs inactive for any amount of time after
feeding?
*****
The bigger the meal, the longer I let my dogs sleep it off. I
usually feed my adult dogs every other day, and the amount of food
generally encourages them to rest without intervention on my part. I
would not expect them to be available for serious enforced activity
for several hours though.

When I fed twice a day (as I am still sort of doing for my 9mo pup) I
would not initiate rollicking adventure for at least an hour after
meals.

Depends on the dogs and the meals, I think. Also may be a deeply
rooted holdover from the "wait an hour before swimming" rule imposed
by our mothers (well, some of our mothers).

In the great tradition of shoulder-shrugging disclaimers--this works
for me.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re:OT

Hi:

I am so sorry for the loss of your boy. I had to tell you that I
lost an old dog a few years ago to a tumor on the lung which
happened suddenly and this sounded rather like it. She had had a
few seizures, but the last was the worst and her tongue turned
blue. It was definitely a tumor, but it came up suddenly. Your
vets were not correct in not helping you to find the cause. I hope
you change to better ones.

The homeopathic remedy Ignatia is wonderful for grief when you can't
stop crying. If you can find it in 30c strength and take just one
little pill away from food and drink, it can help get you back on
your feet.

Philippa Jordan
New York City


> His tongue was blue and they said that it looked like he bleed out
or
> something...maybe a cyst, tumor, or aneurysm...

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[rawfeeding] Re: Bad Vomit/ Need help

"Pauline" <pblondeau46@...> wrote:
> I fasted her today and tonight I she was jumping on counters again,
so I
> tried her with boneless beef. She gobbled it down and about a half
hour
> later rushed out to vomit it up.
*****
Well, 'twere me, I'd be laying off the beef until things quiet down.


My husband is freaking out on me. We
> lost our last collie at 6 months old to an unknown illness after 5
> specialists looked at him.
*****
Hard to relate this situation to a dog dying from unknown causes, but
I can understand why your husband--not seeing any positive results
here--is eager to find something, anything to hang his concerns on.


> Hubby is now resorting to blaming me with this new diet.
*****
Gotta find SOMETHING to blame. I'm sorry he's taking his fears out
on you.


> Maybe I should have started with boneless chicken? Another forum I
> belong to is saying chicken broth and rice, canned pumpkin.
*****
Even though you didn't start with boneless chicken, it seems like a
good enough place to go to now. Try some skinless, boneless,
defatted breast meat. Cut it up if you have to. Broth is neither
good nor bad, but if you make it yourself from real food it can't
hurt. However, since she's drinking nicely, I don't see the point to
broth. There's no point to pumpkin. Or rice. Use Slippery Elm to
soothe her innards, feed boring food, skip the carbohydrates.

If she continues to vomit bile and partially digested food (even
boring stuff like white meat or white fish), you may have to consider
a vet visit, if you haven't already.

And really try to keep her off the counter.
Chris O

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: high BUN but normal Creatinine levels.....??

When i take a urine sample in on Monday im going to get her ACTUAL numbers from the vet. (what they were back in Sept, and what they are now).

No she was not fasted all prior to the tests, on both blood tests, she ate around 5-6 hours PRIOR to the blood being drawn. the vet never told me to fast her, should i have done so?? fast food and water or just food?

I will type BUN into the search files and read some previous emails as well........

thank you~

Jamie

cypressbunny <cypressbunny@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jamie N <rawfurkids@...> wrote:
>
*** How high is high? Are we talking a little above the normal
reference range, or are we talking several times higher than normal?
Was the dog fasted for 12 hours or more before both blood tests?

*** High protein diets do not damage kidneys, and low protein diets do
not spare damaged kidneys. These are myths based on faulty and old
research. I'm tired of debunking these myths, and disgusted with vets
who still buy into it and still sell low protein kibbles, which are
the worst possible thing to feed kidney patients anyway. This is not
new news, either--the first article I read debunking the low protein
theory of kidney treatment was in 1999, maybe earlier. There is no
excuse for vets not to be aware of these facts.

I and others have discussed this numerous times on the list, so check
the archives for more details and links to studies.

--Carrie




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Re: [rawfeeding] Puppy has diahrea

Holly

I would wait it out a day or 2. My ShihTzu Poodle mix also started off like
that but is over it now. If the vet said her stool is normal then it may be
worth your while to just leave it for a few days. My little girl is 2 years
old and she now weighs 5.6 lbs, and does not eat much at all. There are
days that she even skips a meal. In the beginning it really worried me that
she was not eating, but before I started her on raw over a month and a half
ago she has picked up 1.2lbs and is looking really healthy. What I do for
Noodle is take a chicken 1/4 and using kitchen scissors I cut most of the
meat into really small little pieces. Then I hit the bones with a hammer
until the bone is crushed (not completely but just so that it's easier to
start chewing). She loves that and will eat and chew on the leg until she
is full and then I put it away for her next meal.

Veronica


On 6/24/07, zhangjiesmom <zhangjiesmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello I am new to the list and new to raw feeding - my name is Holly
> and I live in Beijing China. I just brought my puppy home on
> thursday and she has been on raw since - she was kibble fed before
> that. She's a mini poodle and weights about 850 grams (1 1/2 lbs)
> and is 6 weeks. I have been feeding her ground chicken breasts. I
> tried to give her unground but she couldn't chew it and then tried
> to swallow it whole and almost choked - so I am grinding for now. I
> am also occasionally adding a little bit of ground eggshell - maybe
> an 1/8 tsp. per feeding (and will feed her about 1/2 to 3/4 oz of
> meat per feeding 3x a day.
>
> Her first meal she ate so much - 2 oz. she seemed famished and like
> there was no tomorrow. The 2nd day she started having diahrea and
> then little drops of blood at the end of the diahrea. Today is
> Sunday and her poop is still runny with intermittant blood at the
> end of it - the blood is clear and watery - maybe a drop at the
> most - and is very faint in color. Should I be doing something else
> different? i started her on slippery elm - just a small sprinkle
> added to only 1 of her meals per day. She always has to pee or poo
> when she's awake. Otherwise is acting normal and very playful when
> not napping. I took her to the vet and she said she seems healthy
> and I had her stool checked and it is normal - the vet also said
> that if she still has blood in her stool I shoud have it checked
> for parvo and giardhia (sp?). But since she is acting normally and
> not vomiting I haven't taken that step yet...I didn't mention to the
> vet she was on raw.
>
> Thanks for any and all help.
>
> Holly Z.
>
> .
>
>
>


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RE: [rawfeeding] Re:OT

My heart is broken and I can't seem to stop crying...I miss him so much that
I can hardly stand it...when I have had dogs that were old it is expected it
is hard but I think the shock of this has been even harder.

### There is nothing I can say but I am SO sorry. My heart is broken for
you. Get a favourite photo...put it in beautiful frame and put it right
where you can always see it. When my last dog passed, this helped me
tremendously.

Time will help, but for now, feel your grief and know it will become less
painful with time.

Chia & Ricco

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[rawfeeding] Re:OT

Carole, I'm crying for you as well. You did everything you could for
him. He'll be waiting for you.

Daisy

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