[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12238

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

2a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

3a. Re: Deworming
From: Sandee Lee
3b. Re: Deworming
From: jennifer_hell
3c. Re: Deworming
From: carnesbill
3d. ADMIN/Re: Deworming
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Feeding Raw and Diabetes
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: Feeding Raw and Diabetes
From: carnesbill

5a. Mack
From: motyka_skathock
5b. Re: Mack
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
From: cleavlet

7.1. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: shefy gupta
7.2. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: Sandee Lee
7.3. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: connie

8a. Re: goat (was How large is a gorge meal?
From: shefy gupta

9a. Re: Beef neck
From: shefy gupta
9b. Re: Beef neck
From: carnesbill

10a. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: diannem200400
10b. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: costrowski75

11. challenges!
From: Linda Baldwin

12a. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: costrowski75

13. While I am thinking of it---major thanks
From: brutus_buckley

14a. First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: Laura Wimpey
14b. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: Casey Post

15. Starting a puppy on RAW
From: charlesmdodson

Messages
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1.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:34 pm ((PST))

This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com

Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (121)
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2a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:34 pm ((PST))

Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

List members who do not trim their posts will be placed on moderation.

**********PLEASE SIGN YOUR MAILS

This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

********NO MONSTER SIGNATURES PLEASE!
Several lines are ok but nothing over 4 lines please.
(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)

*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
and save money for those folks who must PAY for their Internet by the amount of time they are on line.

Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: Deworming
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:35 pm ((PST))

Tracy,

There is never a reason to routinely worm a dog...save the poisons for when
they are necessary! My Danes are 8 and 11 and have never been wormed.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@catt.com>

Do raw fed dogs need to be dewormed more than a dog on kibble?
How often do you deworm your dogs?

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Deworming
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 1:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> Do raw fed dogs need to be dewormed more than a dog on kibble?
> How often do you deworm your dogs?

I haven't dewormed my dog in four years. And she's been on k*bble
until a few weeks ago.

Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Deworming
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 3:23 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> Do raw fed dogs need to be dewormed more than a dog on kibble?

No. My 7 year old Great Dane and 3 year old Great dane have never
been wormed. I had two Golden Retrievers for 12 years. One was
wormed one time the other, never.

> How often do you deworm your dogs?

When they get worms. Being raw fed won't make them have worms more
often.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. ADMIN/Re: Deworming
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 6:27 pm ((PST))

Deworming is not necessarily a diet-driven process. Please take
further discussion to RawChat where there's more space available for
OT subjects.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Feeding Raw and Diabetes
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:46 pm ((PST))

Hi Donna,

This is Nonsense! Those articles do not have one ounce of truth or fact in
them. Ignore them and read through the rawfeeding myths.....
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://rawfed.com/

There is no better way to feed a dog (or person) with diabetes....protein
and fat allow for much better control of blood sugar, decrease the need for
insulin, etc. It is the high carbohydrate diets that cause fluctuations in
glucose and put further strain on the pancreas.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <DJagodzinski21@aol.com>

> Would it be ok for me to feed raw to a Diabetic dog? The Canine Diabetic
> groups seems to think there is more harm in feeding raw? They say that
there is
> alot of deaths because of the way we mass produce our foods? Also, because
the
> dogs don't get the right amount of nutrition, they have serious problems
> later on from lthat? What do you guys think? Here's some of the links they
told me
> to read:
>
> _http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm_
> (http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm)
>
> _http://www.consumersavvytips.org/what_is_the_barf_diet.html_
> (http://www.consumersavvytips.org/what_is_the_barf_diet.html)
>
> _http://www.canismajor.com/dog/barf.html_
> (http://www.canismajor.com/dog/barf.html)

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Feeding Raw and Diabetes
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 3:23 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, DJagodzinski21@... wrote:
>
> Would it be ok for me to feed raw to a Diabetic dog?

Yes, a prey model raw diet is the perfect diet for a diabetic dog.
No carbs.

> The Canine Diabetic
> groups seems to think there is more harm in feeding raw?

Thats not an uncommon way of thinking from people who have never fed
raw. There are a lot of misconceptions about raw feeding and only
raw feeders know these are misconceptions.

> They say that there is
> alot of deaths because of the way we mass produce our foods?

I supose you are talking about grocery store foods. I eat grocery
store foods every day and so do my dogs. There is question as to
whether they are as good as food were 100 years ago but hey,
hundreds of millions of people are eating this food every day. I
never give it a second thought either for myself or my dogs.

> Also, because the dogs don't get the right amount of nutrition,
> they have serious problems later on from lthat?

I have heard that statement from people who have never fed raw for
years. I always ask a person making such a statement exactly what
nutrients are missing from the diet. Either they don't know or they
answer incorrectly by stating some nutrient is missing which
certainly is not. Some say too much fat, some say too little fat,
some say too much protein, some say too much calcium, others say not
enough calcium.

Millions of years of evolution have proved that the nutrients in a
prey model raw diet is exactly the right amount of everything. If
not, wolves wouldn't have thrived for millions of years.

> What do you guys think? Here's some of
> the links they told me
> to read:

I read all the links. All three are full of the misconceptions that
people who have never fed raw have. For example, salmonella. Yes,
raw food sometimes contains salmonella. Yes our dogs eat salmonella
pretty regularly. They never get sick. The people who live with
them never get sick. Other animals that live with them never get
sick. Children don't get sick. Grandchildren don't get sick. THe
elderly living with the dogs don't get sick. The "nobody is getting
sick" is the part the non raw feeders have no clue about. There are
many many other misconceptions held by non raw feeders that are all
absolutely wrong.

Let me repeat that a prey model raw diet is perfect for feeding a
diabetic dog. It is nature's diabetic diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Mack
Posted by: "motyka_skathock" motyka_skathock@yahoo.com motyka_skathock
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 1:51 pm ((PST))

As I mentioned before I can't access the archives, my comp is weird. I
have three questions that are probably not a very big deal however two
of them seem like it to me.
1) Mack has started to not show interest in breakfast. Should I offer
him a "snack" at midday instead of a meal in the morning?
2) He seems to be a bit more gassy and noxious than before, is this
just his body detoxing off of kibble or should I be concerned? He is
still on chicken only.
3) I don't know how to tell his adult size. He already outweighs his
mom by 15lbs and stands 6 inches taller, he outweighs his dad by about
10lbs and is 4 inches taller.

Thanks guys,
Kris and Mack

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Mack
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 3:23 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "motyka_skathock"
<motyka_skathock@...> wrote:
>
> 1) Mack has started to not show interest in breakfast. Should
> I offer him a "snack" at midday instead of a meal in the morning?

I would just offer him one meal sometime during the day. The timing
doesn't matter.

> 2) He seems to be a bit more gassy and noxious than before, is this
> just his body detoxing off of kibble or should I be concerned?

I don't believe in the term "detoxing" but it could very well be his
bondy learning to digest real food. You might remove skin and excess
fat for a few weeks to make digestion a little easier.

> 3) I don't know how to tell his adult size.

As far as using his ideal adult weight to determine food volume, don't
be too concerned about it. Keep an eye on his build. If he starts
getting fat, feed less. If he gets too ribby, feed more. Remember a
skinny dog is healthy. You should be able to see or feel his last two
ribs and not be able to see his hip bone or spine.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
Posted by: "cleavlet" cleavlet@yahoo.com cleavlet
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beaulah_2001us"
<beaulah_2001us@...> wrote:
>
> My holistic vet said she would keep our puppy on at least half canned
> or kibble mixed with raw until she is 8 months old so that calcuim and
> phosphorus levels are maintained and good bones are made.
>

Sandy,

Just about a month ago I too had concerns about the calcium/phosphorus
balance for my puppy. I received the same encouragement that you are
now enjoying from fellow raw feeders.

Digging a bit further (online) I came across this first rate article
that totally supports their message and explains the complexities in a
way that I can understand and appreciate; enjoy:
http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/CalciumPhosphorous.php

Cleavon

Messages in this topic (6)
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7.1. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 2:58 pm ((PST))

i think testes is another word for penis. yeh they seem to love it. i order the big bravo ones and snowy does his happy dance for a good 5 minutes everytime he gets a new one...

shefy and snowy

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Ohhh...I give snowy pizzles/bullysticks. these are cow's testes i
think...

What is testes?? Bully stick is made from cows penus....yuck!! but dog likes it. My dog included:-P

yassy

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Messages in this topic (33)
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7.2. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 3:56 pm ((PST))

Ummmm...didn't you guys ever take sex education???? Testes are
testicles....a penis is a penis. Anything else you wanna know?????
ROTFL!!!!

Oh, and Bully sticks are dehydrated penis.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "shefy gupta" <shefy7@yahoo.com>

> i think testes is another word for penis. yeh they seem to love it. i
order the big bravo ones and snowy does his happy dance for a good 5 minutes
everytime he gets a new one...
>
> shefy and snowy
>
> Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Ohhh...I give snowy pizzles/bullysticks. these are cow's testes i
> think...
>
> What is testes?? Bully stick is made from cows penus....yuck!! but dog
likes it. My dog included:-P

Messages in this topic (33)
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7.3. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 4:31 pm ((PST))

> > i think testes is another word for penis. yeh they seem to love it.
i
> order the big bravo ones and snowy does his happy dance for a good 5
minutes
> everytime he gets a new one...
> >
> > shefy and snowy

LMAO!!! This isn`t what I learned in my A&P (anatomy & physiology)
class from college....this was way to funny!! I was wondering if you
guys do any dog breeding??...LOL...
~connie~
and a bunch of bulldogs
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (33)
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8a. Re: goat (was How large is a gorge meal?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 2:58 pm ((PST))

hi yassy

could you send me the link to where you buy the goat from? is it literally from the state of colorado?

i might have to get a bigger freezer...

i'm in california..hehe...

shefy and snowy

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
> where did you ever find a goat leg two times the size of his
head?!!?!

I wish I knew Asian store that sells goat meat like that near here.I knowAsian store but for me,I do not see much.

Palette's goat except organs and Elk are from Colorado farm. Shipping fee is bit pricy if I order small amount so,I get it bigger and stock up.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. Re: Beef neck
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 2:58 pm ((PST))

OK I have a question about this. I know Snowy is a gulper, usually. Sometimes he does chew, like turkey necks. But if we give them a bone/meat thing that's bigger than their head, can't they still get off chunks of bone and swallow anyways?

they are smart little buggers...i'm going to the asian market to see what types of meat they have, safeway doesn't have any good skin/furry stuff :)

thanks!

shefy and snowy

Loraine Jesse <rothburg@hotmail.com> wrote:

The bone looks like it would be too small and I worry that she would swallow big chunks of it.Lynette

Lynnette,
It would depend if your dog is a chewer or, a gulper. Remember the rule of thumb here is feed pieces of anything that is bigger than their head. There are exceptions to the rule. I can give two of my large dogs smaller bones and they will chew away. I also have two who would swallow them whole.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (5)
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9b. Re: Beef neck
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 3:30 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, shefy gupta <shefy7@...> wrote:
>
> But if we give them a bone/meat thing that's bigger than
> their head, can't they still get off chunks of bone and
> swallow anyways?

Yes, but they will have to chew to get it. He will swallow chunks.
Dogs don't chew like humans. We chew our food into a mush before we
swallow. Dogs only crunch, rip, and tear off chunks small enough to
fit down their throat and they can swallow some amazingly large
chunks. Dogs also have the ability to swallow "backwards". In
other words if they swallow something they realize is too big, they
can just bring it back for more chewing even before it gets to their
stomach. That happens regularly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 3:23 pm ((PST))

Hi Cris and thanks for the response: She is 30 days into her
pregnancy. Pre-breeding, she would eat anything raw put in front of
her, with enormous relish. About 2 weeks ago, she began to refuse
things, first bone, then fat, then some meats. She has been offered
beef heart, beef sirloin, pork butt, goat, rabbit, spareribs and
venison. She will eat some beef heart if all the fat is trimmed off;
any organ, but especially kidney, and some venison. I could probably
keep her going on trimmed beef heart and venison, but does this give
her the array of vitamins and minerals she needs? I thought of the NB
rolls only because 1)they do have added vitamins, etc. and 2) she will
eat as much of it as I will feed her. I don't like it, but I'm getting
concerned.

Dianne M.

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> If she won't eat anything else, sure; but how much anything else have
> you tried?
>
> What have you been offering and how far along is she?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 6:41 pm ((PST))

"diannem200400" <diannem200400@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Cris and thanks for the response: She is 30 days into her
> pregnancy. Pre-breeding, she would eat anything raw put in front
of
> her, with enormous relish. About 2 weeks ago, she began to refuse
> things, first bone, then fat, then some meats. She has been
offered
> beef heart, beef sirloin, pork butt, goat, rabbit, spareribs and
> venison. She will eat some beef heart if all the fat is trimmed
off;
> any organ, but especially kidney, and some venison. I could
probably
> keep her going on trimmed beef heart and venison,
*****
Hard to knock kidney, heart and venison. You try liver? No go on
chicken?

It does seem odd to me (me with zipola experience with pregnant
bitches) that she would get so picky so early on. Is she "normal"
otherwise? Have you had her to the vet? Yeesh, I suppose it could
be nausea this early. In which case she might get through it and
back to a broader variety.

Can you figure out what's in the NB rolls that pleases her? And
then reconstruct it, minus the inappropriate stuff? Would she be
interested in eating other meats mixed into the NB product?

What we need here are some voices of experience! Certainly you
aren't the only one for whom the bitch wouldn't eat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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11. challenges!
Posted by: "Linda Baldwin" ljbcandr@yahoo.com ljbcandr
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

Hi there!
I have a 14 mth lab retriever, fed raw from birth. He came to us at 5 months and was fine up to about 2 months ago. We are having problems with gas, diarhea, vomiting. I feed chicken carcass, raw ground beef, salmon - with occasional eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese. Any ideas what could be causing his problems. Our older dog switched to raw when we adopted the pup and hasn't looked back! It's frustrating - he turns his nose up at organ meats. Can dogs have ulcers or sensitive stomachs? I appreciate any advice!
Linda
ljbcandr@yahoo.com

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Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

Anntiga@... wrote:>
> http://bovine.unl.edu/bovine3D/eng/bonep.jsp
>
>
>
> What a great site!
*****
Weren't me what found it...this excellent website was found by our own
Internet Dominatrix Giselle.

Definitely a keeper, no? LOL, both her and the list.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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13. While I am thinking of it---major thanks
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 6:44 pm ((PST))

I know I will forget later, so I wanted to mention while it's fresh in
my mind that my one year anniversary feeding raw is coming up (11/19)
and (yes, I keep track. I am a dork) I realize how much I have learned
this past year. I can not thank you all enough!! What a great gruop of
people you all are. My dogs would say thanks too but they are busy
eating some emu right now. <g>

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "Laura Wimpey" laura.wimpey@yahoo.com laura.wimpey
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 6:45 pm ((PST))

I presented both my dogs (English Setter, 30 lbs, 1.5 yrs old & Mix, 55lbs, 3 yrs old) with their first chicken thighs today. The Setter approached hers daintily and took over an hour to eat 3/4 of it. She loved it and did not present any vomiting or other ill effects. My serious problem though is with the our mix dog, Elias.

It took him about 15-20 minutes to eat his thigh. He crushed up the bone well enough because I watched and heard him chewing it. About an hour passed and he did the "vomit and try again" with a small pile of bones. He left a small pile too, without re-eating it. Since then he's been vomiting every 30 minutes or so what started as a yellowish bile and moved to a foamy white viscous type bile. This has gone on for about four hours. He seems restless, uncomfortable and depressed. He's drunk about 8 oz of water. We've monitored him constantly. I've combed the archives and this seems to go beyond the typical "adjustment" to raw feeding. Perhaps I missed some posts addressing the issue....

Can this be possible symptoms of pancreatitis? Can it manifest quickly like that, just with one food? How should I approach this?

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14b. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 7:14 pm ((PST))

> It took him about 15-20 minutes to eat his thigh.

A 55 lb dog took 15 minutes to eat a chicken thigh? That's quite slow, so I
seriously doubt "not enough chewing" is the issue.

>>About an hour passed and he did the "vomit and try again" with a small
>>pile of bones.

No meat, just bones? Bile and bone bit vomit?

>>He left a small pile too, without re-eating it. Since then he's been
>>vomiting every 30 minutes or so what started as a yellowish bile and moved
>>to a foamy white viscous type bile.

I have to ask - were the chicken thighs these dogs' first raw meal? Because
it's unusual to see bile and bone bit vomit an hour after eating...it's
usually many hours (which is why this vomit is often seen in the wee hours
of the morning).

>>This has gone on for about four hours. He seems restless, uncomfortable
>>and depressed. He's drunk about 8 oz of water. We've monitored him
>>constantly. I've combed the archives and this seems to go beyond the
>>typical "adjustment" to raw feeding. Perhaps I missed some posts
>>addressing the issue....
>
> Can this be possible symptoms of pancreatitis? Can it manifest quickly
> like that, just with one food? How should I approach this?

Extremely unlikely to be pancreatitis from one chicken thigh an hour before.
The "restless and depressed" does concern me, however. Do you know the
symptoms of bloat? Wait, let me do a quickie search...here's one of the
first that comes up -

http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm

Bloat would be my primary concern as it can affect any dog of any breed of
any age.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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15. Starting a puppy on RAW
Posted by: "charlesmdodson" charlesmdodson@yahoo.com charlesmdodson
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 7:48 pm ((PST))

Hello,

First off, thanks for all the advice, both current and past. It
has been awesome for my wife and I to learn from you all.

I have fed a pup (6 mos) on raw, so I have some experience doing
it, but now I have a new puppy that is just 10 weeks old. When can I
start him on raw and what should I do? I am sure the answer to when
is "now", but I dont know the in's and outs of what to do for such a
little guy. Like I said, he is 10 weeks old and he is 18 lbs. He is
a red doberman male and will probably weigh 85-90 lbs when grown. Do
I simply start him on chicken and slowly work him in just like I did
before? Thanks for any advice.. Charles

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12237

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: possible problem
From: LaDawn

2a. Re: Puppy growth too rapid?
From: Gayle

3a. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden
4b. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden
4c. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Josephine Morningstar

5.1. Turkey
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: Anntiga@aol.com

7a. IMO
From: Lynette
7b. Re: IMO
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: IMO
From: Jenny S

8a. Beef neck
From: Lynette
8b. Re: Beef neck
From: Yasuko herron
8c. Re: Beef neck
From: Loraine Jesse

9a. Horse okay?
From: GaelicHounds
9b. Re: Horse okay?
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: Horse okay?
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Strange Vomit occurances
From: J
10b. Re: Strange Vomit occurances
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Re: goat (was How large is a gorge meal?
From: Yasuko herron

12. Feeding Raw and Diabetes
From: DJagodzinski21@aol.com

13.1. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: Yasuko herron

14a. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
From: Loraine Jesse

15. Deworming
From: trayc2244

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: possible problem
Posted by: "LaDawn" cldalley@verizon.net ladawndalley4
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 6:17 am ((PST))

I did look down her throat and couldn't see anything. I was trying to
remember what I fed her. I know I gave her some leftover cooked
salmon, but not a lot, and she ate some vegetables that had been with
it. She doesn't usually eat vegetables. She may have also had a
chicken back that day. But that may have been the day before (I have
four kids, a husband, a cat, a bird, and the dog, and I homeschool, so
the days tend to run together!:-) ).

She does seem better this morning. At least, when I woke up, she was
raiding the trash can and later she was back to chasing the cat and
chewing on him, so hopefully whatever it has worked itself out.

I just wasn't looking forward to having to take her to an emergency
clinic vet who would give me a hard time about raw if it was a bone
stuck in there!

Thanks everyone,
LaDawn

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi LaDawn,
>
> Have you taken a look down her throat just to see if there's anything
> obvious? What did you feed before this?

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Puppy growth too rapid?
Posted by: "Gayle" gayle@gayleturner.net gayle28607
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>
> OK, I just looked back at my puppy records and good news... my current 18
> month olds, when they were 4 months they each weighed 50 lbs. So over half
> their adult weight because my female looks like she'll probably top out at
> 85-90 lbs and my male is around 90lbs now and may top out at 100 but he's
> shorter than his daddy so I don't think he will be 100.
>
> And both are lean, nice muscle tone, no health issues and neither had any
> bouts of pano (puppy arthritis) either and they are large boned.
> --
> Tina Berry - MT
> Kriegshund German Shepherds
> Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
> www.kriegshundgsds.com
>

For the sake of the archives and those who look up info in them, Chakotay's weight at 16
weeks is 22.5 pounds. It looks like he is on about the same growth curve as Tina's pups
were at this age. That is, it looks like he is likely to have slightly more than half his adult
weight at 16 weeks. He remains pleasantly lean and well muscled.

And, Chakotay is still loving his RMB. This week it has been a 7 lb pork butt that he works
on for about a half hour at each meal. He seems to be losing interest in the mid-day
meal, so I'm starting to phase that out.

Gayle and Chakotay

Messages in this topic (13)
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3a. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 8:04 am ((PST))

"diannem200400" <diannem200400@...> wrote:
Is there a limit to how much beef kidney
> I can feed a pregnant bitch;
*****
I think bowel tolerance would do it.

is there any problem with feeding
> Natural Balance lamb and rice roll for those times when she just
will
> not eat anything else?
*****
If she won't eat anything else, sure; but how much anything else have
you tried? Have you tried real lamb without the filler rice? Rice
offers no nutritional support for a pregnant bitch nor any other dog.
And of course the other ingredients NB uses are of little value.

Are you trying to put too much whole bone in her diet? Someone
recently wrote that offering a plate of mixed options had been a
successful approach to feeding a picky bitch.

What have you been offering and how far along is she?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 8:21 am ((PST))

Giselle--thanks for the suggestion. Where would I find raw pancreas--is there a place to order it on the Internet?
:-) Patty

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, Patty!
In addition to feeding leaner meats and small meals, feeding
raw pancreas can be helpful.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>

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Messages in this topic (18)
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4b. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 9:15 am ((PST))

Patricia--Thanks for the advice. I have tried chicken from several different batches over the past several weeks. He either tries to bury it (in the towel, on the floor)--or just walks away from it every time. Then, if I offer him some turkey instead, he usually eats it--so I am thinking he just might have some kind of allergy to chicken. I guess I will just have to stick with lean turkey breasts for at least a month or more, then gradually try another protein. I have been careful to get only free range chicken or turkey, without antibiotics, etc.--so don't think it could be an additive to the meat.
Thanks again--
:-) Patty

Patricia Purvis <purvisp@yahoo.com> wrote: My cat refused to eat chicken after several months of chicken and then I found out it was bad. It didn't smell bad, but my friend and I split large packages of chicken and I asked her about it and found out that her dog refused to eat it, too. So I tossed that chicken, got different chicken, and now he happily eats the chicken.

I would imagine this does not happen that often. I'm a newby, so I don't know. Also, he did not get diahrea, he just would not eat.

.

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Messages in this topic (18)
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4c. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 9:15 am ((PST))

On 11/3/07, Patty Linden <pattykat3@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> with a supplement called GI Support mixed in. The supplement contains
> (among other things) Slippery Elm Bark, acidophilus, alfalfa, pepsin,
> papain, bromelain.

Wonder if Green Tripe would work?

I know of another pyr, that had not been able to switch back to raw after
Katrina. but with addition of feeding the green tripe.. made the switch back
and is very happy.

however one missed meal of some green tripe.. he goes back to the dia rear
.. testing comes up normal though. may or may not be the same thing. but a
suggestion.

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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5.1. Turkey
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 8:21 am ((PST))

Hi, I just wanted to let those who live in VA that now this week til thursday,Gian supermarket is selling Turkey 50cents per pound.

I wanted to get it but I guess I wait till after thanksgiving due lack of freezer space...but if you did have freezer space,it maybe good-buy.

But after the Thanksgiving andbefore the thanksgiving,which period of times stores sell Turkey cheaper??? I am curious.Do you thin it gets cheaper than 50 cents per pound after the thanksgiving day?

yassy

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Messages in this topic (70)
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6a. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 8:34 am ((PST))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> **** 'K, this is a nice website;
> http://bovine.unl.edu/bovine3D/eng/bonep.jsp
*****
Hey, this is more than a nice website: It's terrific! I think I got
it now.

The knuckle is the southern end of the femur, where it is bound with
connective tissue to the northern end of the tibia, which may or may
not also be considered "knuckle bone". But in either case--lower end
of the femur/upper end of the tibia--the entire composite assembly
along with the patella is considered the knee.

Yes?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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6b. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/4/2007 8:34:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Chriso75@AOL.COM writes:

http://bovine.unl.edu/bovine3D/eng/bonep.jsp

What a great site!

thanks,

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

"Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose."

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. IMO
Posted by: "Lynette" lraefried@sbcglobal.net cherrysmomma
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 9:54 am ((PST))

I see IMO in a lot of messages, can someone please tell me what it
stands for?

Lynette

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: IMO
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 10:00 am ((PST))

"Lynette" <lraefried@...> wrote:
>
> I see IMO in a lot of messages, can someone please tell me what it
> stands for?
*****
IMO (In My Opinion)
IMHO (In My Humble Opinion)
IMNHO (In My Notso Humble Opinion)

HTH. (Hope this helps.)
Chris O (Ostrowski)

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: IMO
Posted by: "Jenny S" jenken69@shaw.ca jenken69
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 10:19 am ((PST))

Hi IMO stands for ' In My Opinion'...
Jenny S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfMJXz3AvKI (doggy napkin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L34YjdBCu8I( Fun in the pool) way to funny..

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Beef neck
Posted by: "Lynette" lraefried@sbcglobal.net cherrysmomma
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 9:54 am ((PST))

I have a medium size 40 lb dog. Would it be OK to feed her chunks of
beef neck? Never see it whole, only in like 4 inch square size. The
bone looks like it would be too small and I worry that she would
swallow big chunks of it.

Lynette

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Beef neck
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

>I have a medium size 40 lb dog. Would it be OK to feed her chunks of
>beef neck?

My dog is 35lb dog and gets little bigger than your fist sized Beef Nedck that I get from shoppers.

She is not gulper and she eats fine,so,I have no problem giving it to my dog.You know your dog's eating habits so,use that to judge the size.

since it is bony categoried items,I usually give boneless meat added to that neck meal. and my dog eats it fine.

If you were uncomfortable to give the Neck,try asking the meat guy behind the counter.He may have bigger chunk of Neck.

yassy

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8c. Re: Beef neck
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

The bone looks like it would be too small and I worry that she would swallow big chunks of it.Lynette

Lynnette,
It would depend if your dog is a chewer or, a gulper. Remember the rule of thumb here is feed pieces of anything that is bigger than their head. There are exceptions to the rule. I can give two of my large dogs smaller bones and they will chew away. I also have two who would swallow them whole.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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9a. Horse okay?
Posted by: "GaelicHounds" GaelicHounds@embarqmail.com vistadeliw
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 9:55 am ((PST))

>>>>>>> But, does
anyone else know much about feeding horse? Is that being their main
staple in their diet not a good idea? They have mostly been eating
chicken and beef and pork. ~Deb~ <<<<<<<<<<<

Years ago, my mom got a Manx kitten, he was fed only horsemeat
as that's what you could get those days, he lived 19+ years and
other than getting neutered, never saw a vet. Due to the
economy/depression, we even ate horsemeat sometimes.

marian, Creena, Gareth-gone on ahead, Solitaire & SamThePoodle
"Unanswered questions are not as dangerous as Unquestioned answers"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: Horse okay?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 10:06 am ((PST))

"Deb" <thegrittons@...> wrote:
But, does
> anyone else know much about feeding horse? Is that being their main
> staple in their diet not a good idea? They have mostly been eating
> chicken and beef and pork. Horse is going to be totally new to
them.
*****
Horse is an appropriate meat for dogs, yes. I think the bigger issue
(aside from the emotional content) is how healthy the horse was when
alive. Horses are medicated as much as if not more than dogs, if you
can imagine. Even if the horse was nominally "healthy" how truly
healthy can any animal be when jabbed for something or other every six
months or so its entire life?

I would want to know the circumstances of the horse's death as well as
its life, to whatever extent possible.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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9c. Re: Horse okay?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 10:20 am ((PST))

If you visit Nagano prefecture in Japan,you are more likely have chance to eat thinly sliced horse meat(raw;we call this,ba sa shi). When I was a kid,one of the inn's dinner had it in menu and my dad ate it but not me.

Like chris said,if the horse was healthy,then, good for dog I think too.

yassy

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10a. Strange Vomit occurances
Posted by: "J" jocelyn7777@hotmail.com croint7777
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 9:56 am ((PST))

Hi everyone,

I've been rawfeeding for almost a year (longer if you count pre-made
raw), and this week has been a little interesting. My boy (smooth
collie mix) vomited early on Fri morning (about 4am) after eating a
turkey leg on Thurs. night. I didn't think anything of it... figured
too much bone. Well, he seemed to hock up most if not the whole
turkey leg- meat and bone (by the amount of the chunks in the
vomit...) So I cleaned it up and gave him a tiny bit of beef brisket
(which is his favorite) so I wouldn't have a bile vomit later in the
morning. No problems. He acted normal all day (playing, etc.) So,
that night he got his normal portion of food (again the last of the
brisket). No issues. Well, last night he got some Emu, and he again
woke me up vomiting all of it up around 6 am. This was really foul
(dark brown in color, and the smell- ughhhh... not what you want to
wake up and clean up.) I didn't give him any thing to eat, and he is
behaving normally now. Playing, etc.

Should I just fast him and give him a chance to clear out his system,
or should I worry and get him to a vet?

Thanks,

Jocelyn

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Strange Vomit occurances
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

>dark brown in color, and the smell- ughhhh... not what you want to
wake up and clean up.) I didn't give him any thing to eat, and he is
behaving normally now.

Hi,Jocelyn. I been feeding raw for 5 months now and,I got one vomit color like you describe.

Little greish with heaps of meat and bone in it.and that stinks a lot.

For me,it happened with Beef Ribs.

When I was asking this to list,my dog may have had virus thing in tum andI fasted one meal and I went back to normal feeding andshe been fine all time since then.

With curiousity,I tried Beef rib again other days but my dog digested it fine so,it is clear it was not Beef rib or anything she ate but something on that particular day.

After the heap amount of vomit with chunks, my dog refused water and no interests or whatsoever for cool down treat that she usually drool over...she was definitely down on that day.

Next day,she was normal her and was fine.

Since your dog is acting normal,maybe food was something??

Fat amount or food temp(too cold etc) or food amount??

yassy

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11a. Re: goat (was How large is a gorge meal?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

> where did you ever find a goat leg two times the size of his
head?!!?!

I wish I knew Asian store that sells goat meat like that near here.I knowAsian store but for me,I do not see much.

Palette's goat except organs and Elk are from Colorado farm. Shipping fee is bit pricy if I order small amount so,I get it bigger and stock up.

yassy

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12. Feeding Raw and Diabetes
Posted by: "DJagodzinski21@aol.com" DJagodzinski21@aol.com djagodzinski21
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

Would it be ok for me to feed raw to a Diabetic dog? The Canine Diabetic
groups seems to think there is more harm in feeding raw? They say that there is
alot of deaths because of the way we mass produce our foods? Also, because the
dogs don't get the right amount of nutrition, they have serious problems
later on from lthat? What do you guys think? Here's some of the links they told me
to read:

_http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm_

(http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm)

_http://www.consumersavvytips.org/what_is_the_barf_diet.html_

(http://www.consumersavvytips.org/what_is_the_barf_diet.html)

_http://www.canismajor.com/dog/barf.html_

(http://www.canismajor.com/dog/barf.html)

~Donna~

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (1)
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13.1. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

>Ohhh...I give snowy pizzles/bullysticks. these are cow's testes i
think...

What is testes?? Bully stick is made from cows penus....yuck!! but dog likes it. My dog included:-P

yassy

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14a. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

My holistic vet said she would keep our puppy on at least half canned or kibble mixed with raw until she is 8 months old so that calcuim and phosphorus levels are maintained and good bones are made.
Sandy

Sandy,
I have played the little ki**le and B**f game for way too many years now. This group has been a light bulb for me and in a sense a life saver for my dogs. We have been so programmed into believing that we do not have the smarts or, scientific know how to feed our dogs. Yes I know it is very hard when so called Educated people who have choosen paths to heal animals give you advise that appears to be right on the mark. The thing is MOTHER NATURE has been bouncing up and down telling us that everything we have ever needed for our carnivores has been provided by her. Granted you will have worries and thoughts about things, but before you know it, the total confidence will seep in. So hang in, try to read through as many archives as possible, then one of these days, it all all click for you. Then you will know and be totally confident that Prey model feeding is the only correct way to feed our dogs, who are carnivores. I have two puppies who will be fed totally this way and of course a whole bunch of people who are going to be watching for sure.
Thank-heavens for this group

Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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15. Deworming
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

Do raw fed dogs need to be dewormed more than a dog on kibble?
How often do you deworm your dogs?

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12236

There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: possible problem
From: Laurie Swanson
1b. Re: possible problem
From: mmc2315

2a. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: Giselle

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: possible problem
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 11:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi LaDawn,

Have you taken a look down her throat just to see if there's anything
obvious? What did you feed before this? It could be just as you
suspect--something irritated her throat going down and it just needs to
heal. Hope she's doing better tomorrow.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "LaDawn" <cldalley@...> wrote:
>> Today, however, she is acting like something is stuck in her throat.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: possible problem
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 5:40 am ((PST))

"LaDawn" wrote:

> Every once in awhile she kind of retches or coughs, and she is
> swallowing more often than normal, too.

> Now she is acting like she doesn't feel well. She doesn't want to
> play or chase the cat, just lay around.
>

Hi LaDawn, shortly after we brought our little guy home from the shelter, he developed
what we think was kennel cough. He was having retching attacks, and the first time he did
it, I thought he was choking. His energy and playfulness went way, way down. A day later,
he woke up with lots of mucous coming out of his nose.

We ended up taking him into the vet, as part of our contract with the shelter to see a vet
within 7 days of bringing him home. She said he was running a slight fever, and it sure
sounded like kennel cough.

I hope your dog feels better soon!

Michelle

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:04 am ((PDT))

**** 'K, this is a nice website;
http://bovine.unl.edu/bovine3D/eng/bonep.jsp
You can click on each bone and a window pops up and tells you what it is.
****

<snip>>> http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/products/images/KnuckleBones.jpg
> The knuckles are the ends when cut, marrow bones are the middle
with the
> knuckles cut off and the femurs are the whole bone.
*****
<snip>
So-- The knuckle is a joint between what and what? The joint
between some bone and the femur, then the femur and some bone. What
bones are these that the femur is attached to at top and bottom that
produces two (count 'em two) similar joints?

**** The knuckles are part of the femur, which is above the knee and
connects with the hip. Altho', from the looks of some of the links I posted
before of the raw and cooked bones, sometimes the tibia is sold, too. That
would be the bone below the knee and above the hock, seemingly with only one
knuckle and a tapering other end. ****

<snip>
Are you saying the
knuckle bone is the hock? If the hock is one of the joints (the
lower one perhaps) what is the upper joint? Or is the hock the
upper point and the pastern is the lower joint?

I still don't get it.
This might be a good example of why knowing the name for everything
is more effort than it's worth.
Chris O

**** Nope, the tibia is above the hock, and the femur is above the tibia -
when they meet, that forms the knee joint. The hock is below the tapered
part of the tibia - and is not a simple joint, like the knee - there are
several bones which join together to make this joint. What they are called,
I don't know, as this site doesn't show them.

Hmm, there's one for pigs, too;
http://porcine.unl.edu/porcine2005/pages/index.jsp?what=skeleton

TC
Giselle

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Messages in this topic (10)
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All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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