Feed Pets Raw Food

Friday, July 20, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11829

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: Trish Chapman
1b. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: cypressbunny
1c. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: Nathalie Poulin

2a. Re: 1st meal for 7 week old puppy
From: Suzie G

3a. Question about rec/wreck bones
From: kaebruney
3b. Re: Question about rec/wreck bones
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Question about rec/wreck bones
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. dog sheading
From: maradethc
4b. Re: dog sheading
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: why is my dog not eating???
From: Nathalie Poulin

6a. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

7a. Fish Safety
From: millser25
7b. Re: Fish Safety
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: Fish Safety
From: millser25
7d. Re: Fish Safety
From: costrowski75

8. Re: Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca) need advice on next...
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

9a. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
From: Giselle

10.1. New Member
From: Ann Flynn

11a. Question...could be OT
From: Karen Swanay
11b. Re: Question...could be OT
From: carnesbill
11c. Re: Question...could be OT
From: costrowski75

12. An unexpected benefit!
From: kjdaughtridge

13a. Re: Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca) need advice on next step
From: Giselle

14a. Re: pork and chicken
From: costrowski75
14b. Re: pork and chicken
From: Giselle


Messages
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1a. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "Trish Chapman" twotheark@verizon.net twotheark
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:57 am ((PDT))

Thanks, Chris. You have gone above and beyond! I knew what she was saying
didn't sound right, but I'm "insecure" enough about feeding the dogs that a
statement like that get me wondering. I will ask her about which list she
is talking about, though, because I am kinda curious how pork got a such bad
rap on that list.

Trish


----- Original Message -----
From: "costrowski75" <Chriso75@AOL.COM>

> Here is what I know:
> 1. Fatty foods (meat or otherwise) are generally more difficult to
> digest than non-fatty foods.
>
> 2. Dogs with hepatic encephalopathy (a liver disease) may require a
> diet that restricts ammonia production. Red meat (any red meat not
> not pork) would be restricted when treating a dog with the disease in
> order to reduce heme (iron) and nitrogen compounds.
>
> So. A healthy raw fed dog should be able to digest fat, regardless
> of what protein it comes attached to. And a healthy raw fed dog
> should be able to process both heme and nitrogenous waste without
> harming either liver or kidneys.
>
> The extent to which a dog is not healthy (and how--specifically--the
> dog is not healthy) determines how much fat and ammongenic red meat
> may be fed. There is no indication at all that pork protein is any
> worse or better than other red meats. And there is no indication
> that any red meat should be restricted if HE is not present.
>
> Given that our dogs--and the wolves they rode in on--are constructed
> to dine on and thrive on ungulates (ruminants or otherwise), it would
> seem that such meals would not be harmful to a healthy dog, and would
> be beneficial in some fashion to all but a few specifically unhealthy
> dogs.
>
> I suspect pork was singled out of the entire red meat spectrum
> because pork has historically been a major fall guy. Given
> that "holistic" can mean whatever the practitioner wants it to mean,
> only her holistic vet can explain her holistic opinions.
>
> You might want to google "hepatic encephalopathy dogs" or "ammongenic
> foods" for more information.
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Trish Chapman" <twotheark@...>
wrote:
>
> I did ask and she said something like one source of her
information was from
> a raw feeding list of 4000 and another was her holistic
vet ......so,
> somewhat vague in the justification department.

*** Well MY raw feeding list of 9200 says pork is just as digestible
as any other meat! Pork, especially pastured pork, is a healthy meat
with healthy fats. Some dogs (and people) that have been eating
lowfat diets or bad fats will have gall bladders that are just not
up to the job of producing the bile necessary to digest long-chain
fatty acids, such as those in pork. That doesn't mean pork is bad,
that means the body has been screwed up by bad diet.

*** Another thing that affects the digestibility of meat is the age
of the animal at slaughter. A young piglet will be much easier to
digest than an aged stewing hen. Likewise, a young chicken fryer
will be easier to digest than an elderly porker. This is because
connective tissue builds and toughens as animals age.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (10)
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1c. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:35 pm ((PDT))

Well that's sort of funny, seeing as though i feed my
dog lots of pork and she loves it. In fact, after I
introduced pork she decided she would have nothing to
do with chicken anymore... and her stools are pretty
normal and her coat is lovely and her teeth sparkle..
I'm sure there are lots of people on this list who
will vouch for pork too.
If is works for your dog, great! If you find your dog
having problems after eating pork, well then maybe
pork isn't so good for your dog.
Trust your own (and dogs!) instincts.

Nathalie

--- Trish Chapman <twotheark@verizon.net> wrote:

> I did ask and she said something like one source of
> her information was from
> a raw feeding list of 4000 and another was her
> holistic vet ......so,
> somewhat vague in the justification department.
>
> Trish
>
>
> >> Someone on another list that I am on has said
> that pork is one of the
> > least
> >> digestible meats that are readily available for
> us to feed our dogs.
> > *****

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Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: 1st meal for 7 week old puppy
Posted by: "Suzie G" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

Hi ,Suzie G. here

Thanks Chris ! This is like waiting to give birth!!!

Suzie G.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Question about rec/wreck bones
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

In a recent post I mentioned giving rec bones to my dog and was
suprised to hear several people respond that they don't offer them.

It had me wondering if maybe my definition of 'rec' bones are skewed.

I consider rec bones to be the large bones left after the meat has
been stripped by the dog. Like beef ribs for example.. some have
little muscle meat left, but the work of stripping the bone and
getting to the marrow keps my dogs busy and happy for hours!

Should I not be offering it to the?

For those of you that feed large animals (i.e - deer legs, emu, etc)
do your dogs not gnaw on te big legs bones afterwards?

Apparently I need clarification on what "rec" bons truly are.

Thanks!

~Kae

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Question about rec/wreck bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:54 am ((PDT))

"kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>> For those of you that feed large animals (i.e - deer legs, emu, etc)
> do your dogs not gnaw on te big legs bones afterwards?
>
> Apparently I need clarification on what "rec" bons truly are.
*****
Feeding large animals or parts of large animals is my goal but
providing dense weight bearing bones is not. If the bone can be
consumed either entirely or to some degree, fine. If the bone has a
total "in your face" or "you and who else?" attitude, I prefer not to
let my dogs linger on it.

"Rec bones" generally are defined as skimpy on meat and inedible. I do
not dole out bare bones for amusement, and any bone (leg or otherwise)
that is de-constructed during the meal proper gets removed when it
becomes bare.

For my money, grappling with the skin and tendons and sinew and
cartilage and meat is rec enough.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Question about rec/wreck bones
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kae,

It depends on your dog's size and eating style what bones are edible
and safe. But naked leg bones from big animals don't seem to be good
for any size dog. Before I knew better, I used to give my 20 lb.
Boston pretty naked beef and buffalo knuckle/marrow/rib bones and he
has 2 chipped teeth. Now, I will occasionally give beef ribs for the
workout of stripping the meat off, but the bones are too hard, so I
remove them when he's cleaned them off. Some others' dogs seem to be
able to eat these or nibble on the ends. I haven't fed deer or emu
legs, but I think I remember others talking about removing the deer
legs after they're stripped. You might want to search the archives
on that.

I think in general, if they're gnawing on a bare bone for awhile,
they are probably wearing down their teeth, and if they're trying and
trying to crunch it, they could chip or break a tooth. If they're
working awhile on getting the meat off because it's a complicated
body part, that's great, then remove the bare bone if it's not very
edible.

Hope that helps.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:


> For those of you that feed large animals (i.e - deer legs, emu, etc)
> do your dogs not gnaw on te big legs bones afterwards?
>
> Apparently I need clarification on what "rec" bons truly are.
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. dog sheading
Posted by: "maradethc" maradethc@yahoo.com maradethc
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi I am very new to raw diet. Almost a week. Is it ok that one of my
dog and i have 3 is sheading...He is a lab shar pei mix and its falling
out a ton is that normal... Thanks

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: dog sheading
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT))

"maradethc" <maradethc@...> wrote:
> Hi I am very new to raw diet. Almost a week. Is it ok that one of my
> dog and i have 3 is sheading...He is a lab shar pei mix and its
falling
> out a ton is that normal
*****
I doubt very much less than a week on raw food will produce such
immediate shedding. What else is going on in the dog's life?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: why is my dog not eating???
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

When we got back from going out this morning, I found
the wrapper from half a baguette on the floor and
crumbs all over the floor...
My GSD/husky was full of bread and wouldn't eat her
meal.
Now I know for next time not to leave the baguette on
the counter!

Her body might just be too full from all the kibble.
Give her another day or so to get it all out. Give her
lots of water. Then try again with the raw.

Nathalie

--- celebrationcookies <celebrationcookies@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> My GSD has been successfully eating raw for a month
> now. BUT, 2 days
> ago she quit eating. She got into some kibble and
> ate THAT!!! She has
> not had that in weeks! I don't understand. Help!!
> Thanks Carolyn
>
>

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:13 pm ((PDT))

what kind of diet is your dog on now? How much does the vet want to put your dog on, and for how long? Is this a short term fix, or an only fix? Prednisone, for IBD usually only treats the syptoms, not the problem, and the prey model raw diet, would certainly help with the ibd, maybe even make it go away, you'd have to give it a try, and I would hope your dog could handle the symptoms, depending on how bad, what they were, without having to do the steroids, until you could give the diet a good shot.
Sometimes, the prednisone is good for a short term, help, if that is what the vet wants, to get over the hump, then do that, ween on, do the diet change too, then ween off the prednisone, and stay on the new raw diet, and hope that did the trick. Usually, the short term length for that kind of thing is no longer than two weeks, what did your vet say?
I would start the raw diet today, and hold on the steroids if the dog can wait, if not, do both, the diet and the steroids, but in small, real small doses, and see how they work together, and they can work well if managed closely. Your dogs appetite will increase alot on the steroid, and it will be really thirsty too.
Good luck, and give us more info.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. Fish Safety
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:14 pm ((PDT))

I know Salmon has a bit of a risk of Salmon poisoning, and I've heard
that trout can also cause "salmon poisoning". What kind of fish do
your dogs and cats like?
Thanks,Erica

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Fish Safety
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:35 pm ((PDT))

"millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> I know Salmon has a bit of a risk of Salmon poisoning, and I've
heard
> that trout can also cause "salmon poisoning".
*****
"Salmon poisoning" can affect wild caught salmon, trout and steelhead
from the Pacific Northwest, from southern Alaska down the west coast
to about mid-California and east to the Cascades. It is caused by a
micro-organism on a parasite and freezing will kill both the parasite
and the micro-organism. If you don't feel safe with freezing, simply
do not feed wild caught salmonids from the Pacific Northwest.

Atlantic salmon and farmed salmon from anywhere (US, Canada, Norway,
Chile) are not affected by this parasite/micro-organism team and can
be fed without further freezing.


What kind of fish do
> your dogs and cats like?
*****
Salmon and sardines primarily. Also whiting, pollack and cod filets,
which happen only rarely.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Fish Safety
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:59 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...
> It is caused by a
> micro-organism on a parasite and freezing will kill both the parasite
> and the micro-organism.


How long, and to what temperature does the fish need to be frozen at?


Thanks!
Erica


Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: Fish Safety
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:04 pm ((PDT))

"millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>> How long, and to what temperature does the fish need to be frozen at?
*****
Two weeks after it's frozen at the coldest setting ya got. The less
efficient your freezer, the longer the freeze.

A slam bam freezer would likely do the job in a week, so a mediocre one
should be adequate for three weeks.

A really fabulous commercial freezer can do the job in 24 hours.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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8. Re: Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca) need advice on next...
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

Okay. :) Thanks about the gizzards. I was told that so I figured I
wouldn't feed that often or buy special packs, but good to know that it still is
considered muscle and maybe I can "beef" up a boney meal with it on occassion. I
have been slicing it small for treats but dh HATES getting his hands
dirty--please!. I freaked out last night when he gave him a whole pupperoni stick
(which he bought and I was taking back today). SIGH. .. he wants treats he
doesn't have to wash his hands every time after he gives them. I told him there was
probably just as much salmonella on the Pupperoni stick as there is on raw
gizzards. LOL! The look on his face was priceless. ;)

Thanks again! Tamatha



Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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9a. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:55 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carol!
Have you ever tasted SEBP? I have, and just dipped the tip
of my finger into the baggie to reconfirm my memory. Its really very
bland, sightly sweet. I add a 1/2 - 1 tsp of SEBP to an ounce of
ground meat, usually chicken or turkey to make 1-2 meatballs and feed
accordingly. I've never had a dog refuse it this way.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> On Jul 20, 2007, at 4:30 AM, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> > Someone asked why I add honey (sorry, I lost the e-mail as I was
> > responding
> > to it....love my AOL...NOT).
> >
> > But I think it's just for taste. The SEB is really bitter and my
> > dog takes
> > it better with the honey. If it has another function, I don't
> > know what it
> > is. The recipe was given to me by someone on my kidney list a few
> > years ago.
> >
> > Carol for Spencer
>
>
> Thank you; it was my post. This is why I suggest cream or broth. Just
> in general principle, I don't prefer to pervert a dog's taste by
> providing any form of concentrated sugars. As I said, just in
> principle, due to my long standing adherence to natural diet for both
> species....
>
> ginny and Tomo


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10.1. New Member
Posted by: "Ann Flynn" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Hello Janine,

I didn't know what Akitas were so I did a search. Very nice breed.

I know nothing about blood test readings but sounds like you are concerned
about it so maybe someone else can help you with that, but glad to hear your
dogs seem ok anyway.

I didn't see any other replies to your post. You have mentioned that you are
using a commercial mix and have been home cooking meals for your dogs. This
group is all about raw feeding of whole meaty chunks with bone in, not
ground or commercial foods which are not the best food for dogs. The
suppliers of the food you are using recommends mixing vegetables with their
mix as well, but dogs are carnivores and cannot digest vegetables, they will
go through undigested and give no nutrition to the dog. It is a lot of
effort for you and not needed by the dogs.

It is great that you want to do the best thing for your dogs and if you
stick around and read more posts here you will learn a lot about raw
feeding.

The commercial dog food companies, whether selling canned, kibbled or raw
concoctions, are selling it just because it is a way for them to make a
financial profit, not because it is the best for your dog. But the politics
of it is covered in another group I think. Suffice to say they make nothing
when you just go to the butcher or wherever and buy a hunk of meat with the
bone in. A lot of people here recommend starting with whole chicken. It is
easy and offers a complete meal when fed with the organs.

I think it was in Tom Lonsdale's book, "Works Wonders" or maybe in this
group that I read that if you left your dog to find its own food, you would
not find him down in the carrot patch! That made a lot of sense to me. Our
modern dogs are just modified wolves, and wolves thrive on a diet of meat,
bones and organs of the prey they hunt.

They need the ripping tearing and chewing for both mental and physical
health. Feeding ground, prepared foods takes away these all important
aspects of raw feeding large pieces which need lots of work, chewing and
tearing to get through.

It is what I think is called the "whole prey model" diet. The folk here
recommend an 80/10/10 ratio, being 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organs ( eg.
liver, kidney). There is heaps of info in the archives to this site if you
look it up and lots of very knowledgeable people here if you have any
questions regarding feeding a whole raw meaty diet.

Cheers, Ann.

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11a. Question...could be OT
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:41 pm ((PDT))

OK I'm going to ask, but this may be off topic. I'm about to get a
cockatiel. I've had them before but I fed seed. The prevailing wisdom is
that birds should be fed a high quality processed pelleted food for optimal
health. (Sound familiar?) There doesn't seem to be much in the way of raw
feeding information for birds so I was wondering if anyone had any ideas
what a proper diet might be and if anyone here has been feeding their
parrots a biologically appropriate diet? If the moderators decide it's OT,
private replies are welcomed.

Thank you,
Karen

>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07


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11b. Re: Question...could be OT
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Swanay" <luvbullbreeds@...>
wrote:

As with any animal ... Do a little research to find out what they eat
in the wild. That is the proper food to feed them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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11c. Re: Question...could be OT
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:08 pm ((PDT))

"Karen Swanay" <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> OK I'm going to ask, but this may be off topic.
*****
You were right, it is.
We try to stick to dogs, cats and ferts here, with occasional walks in
the weeds to discuss human foibles. Birds is too far into the weeds.

Private replies are great; you might want to repost to rawchat where
life is more leisurely.

Further postings here will be loosed to the skies, cyber or otherwise.
Chris O
Mod Team

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12. An unexpected benefit!
Posted by: "kjdaughtridge" kjdaughtridge@yahoo.com kjdaughtridge
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

I've been raw feeding my two dogs for about 4 weeks now. My greyhound
has incontinence due to urethral sphincter mechanism incompetence (he
leaks when he's asleep). Well, after about 2 weeks or so on raw, he
has stopped leaking! I am overjoyed to say the least. But I am curious
as to a scientific explanation for how a raw diet could help this
condition.(I was never very good at biology.)I'd love to hear
everyone's thoughts. Is this cause & effect?

--Kathleen D.


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13a. Re: Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca) need advice on next step
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Ginny & Chris!
I too, was concerned about the 'no nutritional value' label being
placed on gizzards, so I looked up a couple sites with nutritional and
vitamin info;
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Ag.html
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/chicken.htm
They seem to be pretty fine in vitamin as well as the nutritional
value, also.
Like I said before, I feed them, and am satisfied they are as good for
my dog as any other boneless body part.
TC
Giselle

> ginny wilken <gwilken@> wrote:
> > I'm sorry to take up bandwidth with this, but I think maybe someone
> > should point out that gizzards are perfectly fine muscle meat. This
> > is far from "no nutritional value". They are not glands or organs,
> > really, so don't have any of those "special" features, but they are
> > still fine food, along with the rest of the darn chicken, from time
> > to time.
> *****
> I don't see this as using up bandwidth.
>
> Gizzards are not useless body parts, similarly they are not heroic body
> parts. But they are body parts and one hardly has to go out of one's
> way to acquire them. It would be silly not to feed them, under those
> circumstances.
>
> Chris O(
>


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14a. Re: pork and chicken
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:58 pm ((PDT))

"esmolensky" <esmolensky@...> wrote:

> If I can only get chicken and pork(budget issues)as my only protein
> > source, is that still ok along with other or same(chicken) organs?
*****
I recommend in lieu of whole prey that one should aim for both
protein and body part variety. Be my preference to see more than two
meats, but if you can manage to feed lots of chicken parts and lots
of pork parts--instead of restricting yourself to, say, leg quarters
and pork neck bones--you would be (IMO) offering your dog more. Some
meaty bones, some bony bones, some juicy meaty meals, some not so.
So think whole chicken and think "meat chart" when looking for pork.

I'd think it shouldn't be so hard to find affordable beef heart.
Beef heart would be a terrific addition to the menu. Beef heart
would assure you of more meat, of more red meat, and of another
protein source. Three in one blow!

For organs, if all you can get is chicken liver, at least feed that.
Try for pork liver if you can, and spleen. Beef liver of course
would be good.

When you are facing serious financial limitations, it is really worth
it to keep your eyes peeled for the occasional odd thing to add to a
meal. I suggest you browse the list archives for options others have
come across, and for ways to stetch your budget, and for sources you
may not have considered.

Here's how to join Yahoogroups so you can access the Rawfeeding
message archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

14b. Re: pork and chicken
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi, uh, esmolensky!
Look over this list of creative/cheap ways to source a variety of
meat/body parts;
"Where do you look for meat suppliers?"

Permission to repost from Lis

1) look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) you may be able to join a barter group.
4) google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) if you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8) if you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) see if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
10) try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) and I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
Freecycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) some Wal-Marts and some Costcos and some Sam's Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) definitely watch the the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) a great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. see if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. and sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill (like deer)
22) you can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room
23) post a message in CarnivoreFeed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) speak to local farmers
25) also look for heart, tongue, and gizzards which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats
26) find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

Thanks again, Lis

TC
Giselle



> If I can only get chicken and pork(budget issues)as my only protein
> > source, is that still ok along with other or same(chicken) organs?
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11828

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: Denise Strother
1b. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: Yasuko herron
1c. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: costrowski75

2a. getting discouraged
From: mensrea320@aol.com
2b. Re: getting discouraged
From: Andrea
2c. Re: getting discouraged
From: Yasuko herron
2d. Re: getting discouraged
From: carnesbill

3a. Heartworm positive?
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
3b. Re: Heartworm positive?
From: pet.wellness
3c. Re: Heartworm positive?
From: Tina Berry
3d. Re: Heartworm positive?
From: carnesbill
3e. ADMIN/Re: Heartworm positive?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: pooping matter
From: Yasuko herron
4b. Re: pooping matter
From: ginny wilken

5. pork and chicken
From: esmolensky

6a. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
From: ginny wilken

7a. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: dinafinkpa
7b. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: Rob Bardenett
7c. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: dinafinkpa
7d. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: dinafinkpa
7e. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: costrowski75

8a. 1st meal for 7 week old puppy
From: gusmyhairyboy
8b. Re: 1st meal for 7 week old puppy
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: 1st meal for 7 week old puppy
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Re: Sterilizing Crate
From: Diane Mulford


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

Well, my dogs think "someone on another list" does not know what they
are talking about. I would like to know what this sage individual bases
this on. Denise

Someone on another list that I am on has said that pork is one of the
least digestible meats that are readily available for us to feed our
dogs.


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:10 am ((PDT))

>pork is one of the least digestible meats that are readily available for us to feed our
>dogs.

Hi.I think it is not true.It just depend on individual dogs gutt ability to digest anything I think.
My dog do pretty well with pork. I know other dog do pretty good on lamb but my dog seem to have problem with that;sorely fed lamb cause loose/watery poo.

So, I am feeding just less/about 1oz of lamb with chicken or Turkey that she do well on for now and she is doing better.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:24 am ((PDT))

"Trish Chapman" <twotheark@...> wrote:
>
> I did ask and she said something like one source of her information
was from
> a raw feeding list of 4000 and another was her holistic vet
*****
Trish, I spent (wasted?) a few hours trying to track this down.
There are only a few Yahoo dog nutrition lists that reach 4000
members and this is one of them. This list certainly does not
suggest pork protein is difficult to digest. I browsed the other
4000+ list archives and found two possibly implicated references to
digestibility.

There are a few other nutrition lists with significant memberships
but neither are close to 4000, so I ignored them. And of course
there's no way I'm going to find and search the bazillion nonYahoo
groups, lists and forums. So if you can get from this person the name
of the list, that might help in understanding the perspective.

Here is what I know:
1. Fatty foods (meat or otherwise) are generally more difficult to
digest than non-fatty foods.

2. Dogs with hepatic encephalopathy (a liver disease) may require a
diet that restricts ammonia production. Red meat (any red meat not
not pork) would be restricted when treating a dog with the disease in
order to reduce heme (iron) and nitrogen compounds.

So. A healthy raw fed dog should be able to digest fat, regardless
of what protein it comes attached to. And a healthy raw fed dog
should be able to process both heme and nitrogenous waste without
harming either liver or kidneys.

The extent to which a dog is not healthy (and how--specifically--the
dog is not healthy) determines how much fat and ammongenic red meat
may be fed. There is no indication at all that pork protein is any
worse or better than other red meats. And there is no indication
that any red meat should be restricted if HE is not present.

Given that our dogs--and the wolves they rode in on--are constructed
to dine on and thrive on ungulates (ruminants or otherwise), it would
seem that such meals would not be harmful to a healthy dog, and would
be beneficial in some fashion to all but a few specifically unhealthy
dogs.

I suspect pork was singled out of the entire red meat spectrum
because pork has historically been a major fall guy. Given
that "holistic" can mean whatever the practitioner wants it to mean,
only her holistic vet can explain her holistic opinions.

You might want to google "hepatic encephalopathy dogs" or "ammongenic
foods" for more information.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. getting discouraged
Posted by: "mensrea320@aol.com" mensrea320@aol.com lespoulets2003
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

I need some encouragement. I have been feeding two dogs raw for about 5-6
months now. I obviously am not feeding enough. My one dog, who has always
been very skinny, is now sickly skinny. He is a sight hound mutt, so he is
supposed to be very skinny. His energy level is off the roof, even w/his sickly
skinny body. My other 12 year old beagle/lab mix has lost quite a bit of
weight. I can just barely see his ribs now. So I know I need to feed him more
too.

When I try to feed them other stuff beside chicken, or mix some liver in
w/their chicken they have very loose bowel movements. Sometimes they can't hold
it to go outside.

I switched my cat to raw about 2 months ago. She has only eaten chicken and
canned tuna. I know I need to mix it up more for her too. Her health (tear
stains and puking) have disappeared, but now she is not using her litter box
and my house smells like cat pee.

So I need some advice and encouragement please!

Holly

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: getting discouraged
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:09 am ((PDT))

Maybe you are trying to introduce the new stuff too quickly for
them? How much food are they eating right now, and how much do they
weigh? You might add a small breakfast or snack time for them if you
haven't done that already. I might also suggest feeding something
super boney, like a chicken back when you introduce new meaty meats.
What foods have you tried adding besides liver? Do the dogs do ok
with the organs that come with the chicken?

Cats can be really hard to switch over, mine took about a year before
they were eating a decent variety. Two foods they really loved from
the get-go were pork meat and turkey heart, you might try those
foods. Also, we have a sister list, rawcat, where lots of cat
specialists can probably help with the litterbox problem. I myself
have one cat who randomly decides that my planters/closet are special
litterboxes just for him. So far, I have succeeded in finding a
cleaner that eliminates the cat pee odor, but other than putting a
litterbox in the closet corner, I don't have any other ideas. Sorry.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, mensrea320@... wrote:
>
> I need some encouragement. I have been feeding two dogs raw for
> about 5-6 months now. I obviously am not feeding enough. My one
> dog, who has always been very skinny, is now sickly skinny. He is
> a sight hound mutt, so he is supposed to be very skinny. His
> energy level is off the roof, even w/his sickly skinny body. My
> other 12 year old beagle/lab mix has lost quite a bit of weight.
> I can just barely see his ribs now. So I know I need to feed him
> more too.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: getting discouraged
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:47 am ((PDT))

>When I try to feed them other stuff beside chicken, or mix some liver in w/their chicken >they have very loose bowel movements. Sometimes they can't hold it to go outside.

Hi. I am still newbie(being feeding raw for 2 months and some weeks) but I too experienced bad poo days from my dog.

Once Ginny has told me that if you see the loose/watery poo,add more bone and that would firm up some and do not need to get alarm for that,but have to be careful how much bone you give so that the dog not going to have oposit problems;constipation.

Also, Gisell and some others suggested using Slippery Elm barks to sooth the intestine.
You maybe can get help from it?

Maybe the mix of meat with chicken has more meat than they can handle so they may need more bone in it to match it up with maybe? Or liver amount was more than they can handle? Too much liver cause loose poo so,I feed 1 oz tops to my 30lb+ dog.That is her 10% number.If I feed kidney with liver,I feed,5% each. My dog handle pretty well with that amount.

Or just like my lamb problem dog,you maybe need more chicken than other mixed meat say beef or pork or whatever.That could control their poo better.

My dog seem not being able to be good on one single lamb meal and it produce loose poo (she can control though),and it seems if I feed less than 1oz or very small amount of lamb with chicken,she seems better.

I hope this helps you bit

yassy


---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: getting discouraged
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, mensrea320@... wrote:
>
> He is a sight hound mutt, so he is
> supposed to be very skinny. His energy level is off the
> roof, even w/his sickly
> skinny body.

If by "off the roof" you mean he has a lot of energy, I wouldn't
worry about him. He may very well be at his perfect weight. I know
anytime I see a sight hound I always wonder how they can survive
with such little meat on their bones.

> My other 12 year old beagle/lab mix has lost quite a bit of
> weight. I can just barely see his ribs now. So I know I need
> to feed him more too.

"Barely see his ribs" is not too big a deal either. Thin elderly
dogs are better than fat elderly dogs. If you want him to gain
weight, you might add a small meal to his diet. I question whether
he really needs the extra weight particularly at his age.

> When I try to feed them other stuff beside chicken, or mix
> some liver in
> w/their chicken they have very loose bowel movements.

Try adding a little other stuff in very small amounts with chicken.
Gradually add more and more with less and less chicken. They really
don't need much liver or organs at all. One small tiny little glob
a week for each should be plenty.

> I switched my cat to raw about 2 months ago. She has only
> eaten chicken and
> canned tuna. I know I need to mix it up more for her too.

My cats are indoor/outdoor cats and often catch wild prey outside so
I don't worry if 90% of thier indoor diet is chicken. You might
offer her a little ground beef or ground venison if you have it
available. I'm talking like a meal a week.

> now she is not using her litter box
> and my house smells like cat pee.

Thats a behavior problem and not a diet problem.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Heartworm positive?
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

Anyone on this list have experience with heartworm positive dogs? Please
refer me. I don't think this is the place to actually discuss it.
Thanks.
Carol for Spencer (who btw seems to be doing quite well o his raw diet so
far...going into third month...but still scratching and biting himself to
bits...sigh).

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Heartworm positive?
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:09 am ((PDT))

No experience with heart worm positive dogs. Sorry. I can recommend a
pet shampoo called Theraneem for the scratch and itch. More frequent
bathing with this helps to break the cycle. Also taking my dog off
chicken seems to make a difference. All the best. Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Anyone on this list have experience with heartworm positive dogs?
Please
> refer me. I don't think this is the place to actually discuss it.


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Heartworm positive?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:48 am ((PDT))

"Anyone on this list have experience with heartworm positive dogs?"

Hop on over to these two lists - one of them has in the files or posts
natural cures for HW dogs.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TruthAboutVaccines/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/jstsayno2vaccs/
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Heartworm positive?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:03 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Anyone on this list have experience with heartworm positive dogs?
Please
> refer me.

If the infestation is not real heavy, put him on heartguard every 30
days. This will kill the newborn heartworms so the infestation
doesn't increase. The adults that are there now will die of old age
in a couple of years.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. ADMIN/Re: Heartworm positive?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:27 am ((PDT))

The rawfeeding list is not the place to discuss HW remedies. The OP
very properly asked to be referred to appropriate sites (for which I
thank the OP!) so please, other than to offer links to other more
suitable locations, let's not get into HW treatment.

At all.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: pooping matter
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:04 am ((PDT))

>tonight is a slab of pork ribs and some grassfed beef liver.

Hi,Ginny.I fed Buffalo Ribs last night and her poop got back to normal thanks to your advise.Thank you so much.

She took about 60 min for that dinner and she stripped off meat pretty good and was having hard time getting good bite of bones and I was starting wondering if she cannot eat bone due too dense even though it is a rib.

After 30 minutes or so,she finally cracked the bone and play bow posture with paws on ribs and stripped silver skin?? and then she ate half of rib bones.

Beef rib in the past took her to finish all off about 90 min so,Buffalo Ribs were next challenging meal I think.The piece was meaty enough;about 2 inch meat on it and she enjoyed it a lot with some herding play in the end.

She walked off the curtain area with some fragments still on the curtain so I picked it up and tossed it.

With ball fetching play and some walks and training and loong tedious meal,she got knocked out at night and she was sleeping in the crate still whe I woke up and came out from the shower.I literally woke her up by opening the crate..

I hope she does ok today too.

Thank you again for your advise and,it is nice to know that you care your dog very much and he is so lucky to have a knowledgeble caring owner around him all time.

Having a dog really add spice to my life. I am glad to have palette with me and have joined in list and feed best diet and get her be healthy and learn more about overall best care possible .

I am very satisfied with all those.

Thank you all too and I hope to learn even a single thing a day and become more knowledgeble than yesterday:-P

yassy


---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: pooping matter
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))


On Jul 20, 2007, at 9:01 AM, Yasuko herron wrote:
> Hi,Ginny.I fed Buffalo Ribs last night and her poop got back to
> normal thanks to your advise.Thank you so much.
>
> She took about 60 min for that dinner and she stripped off meat
> pretty good and was having hard time getting good bite of bones and
> I was starting wondering if she cannot eat bone due too dense even
> though it is a rib.
>
> After 30 minutes or so,she finally cracked the bone and play bow
> posture with paws on ribs and stripped silver skin?? and then she
> ate half of rib bones.


I think this is a pretty remarkable performance for a Corgi,
especially one fairly new to raw. Good work, Palette!

ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5. pork and chicken
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***


If I can only get chicken and pork(budget issues)as my only protein
> source, is that still ok along with other or same(chicken) organs?


Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))


On Jul 20, 2007, at 4:30 AM, Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:

> Someone asked why I add honey (sorry, I lost the e-mail as I was
> responding
> to it....love my AOL...NOT).
>
> But I think it's just for taste. The SEB is really bitter and my
> dog takes
> it better with the honey. If it has another function, I don't
> know what it
> is. The recipe was given to me by someone on my kidney list a few
> years ago.
>
> Carol for Spencer


Thank you; it was my post. This is why I suggest cream or broth. Just
in general principle, I don't prefer to pervert a dog's taste by
providing any form of concentrated sugars. As I said, just in
principle, due to my long standing adherence to natural diet for both
species....

ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "dinafinkpa" dinafinkpa@yahoo.com dinafinkpa
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:02 am ((PDT))

Thank you for your advice. I will keep you posted and I appreciate all the help.
Dina


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Casey Post" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
>
> >>can I go cold turkey on the Pred?
>
> No, absolutely not! That would be disasterous, to say the least.
>
> >Or
> > should I ween her off it gradually?
>
> Gradually - as in *VERY* gradually. If this dog has been on Pred for six
> years (!), you will want to take this extremely, extremely slowly. And
> remember, diet is the foundation of good health, but it is by no means a
> cure-all.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Casey
>

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "Rob Bardenett" rbee29@gmail.com salinastarroute
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:12 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

My cattledog was just diagnosed with IBD and the vet wants to start her on
prednisone. Any advice on foregoing the prednisone and just treating this by
going with a raw diet for the rest of her life?
Thanks,
Rob Bardenett


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "dinafinkpa" dinafinkpa@yahoo.com dinafinkpa
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:12 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


Jeni,
Thank you so much for your sound advice. I myself have been on Pred and it's not fun to
come off it. I will wait a few months for the diet to kick in (Candie's very happy getting her
chicken!) before I wean her off the Pred. I'm a total newbie to a message board but am
thrilled with the great advice and kindness of the members. I will keep you posted on her
progress. My 3 year old Labradoodle Dixie (who has no health issues) is going raw, too,
so it will be interesting to note differences, if any, in the two dogs.

Thanks again,
Dina


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

7d. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "dinafinkpa" dinafinkpa@yahoo.com dinafinkpa
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Bardenett" <rbee29@...> wrote:
>
Any advice on foregoing the prednisone and just treating this by
> going with a raw diet for the rest of her life?

Rob,
Once our dog was on the Pred I couldn't get her off it. It's been 6 years; Pred has lots of side
effects and will shorten the lifespan of your dog. I don't know what IDB is, but my dog had
allergies and I tried shots, acupuncture and every allergy medicine available. Pred was the
only thing that stopped her scratching her self raw - she hardly has any fur because she
would scratch it all away. I just started yesterday with the raw and I know it doesn't always
work but I am willing to try it for the sake of my dog - she is only 7!

So I would suggest only starting the Pred if you must; and use the very least amount that will
help. If your dog can handle not going on the Pred right away, and you can wait for the diet
to kick in, I would think that would be your best route. This is just from my own experience;
I'm not an expert. You don't want your dog to be uncomfortable.

Dina

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

7e. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

"Rob Bardenett" <rbee29@...> wrote:
>
> My cattledog was just diagnosed with IBD and the vet wants to start
her on
> prednisone. Any advice on foregoing the prednisone and just
treating this by
> going with a raw diet for the rest of her life?
*****
No pred, at least not now. Now--until you find out otherwise--there
are lifestyle management options that you should try. Pred just
turns off the immune system, and once it's off it's hard to turn back
on.

You will have to work on finding the most appropriate raw diet for
your girl and most likely you will be adjusting it for some time.
OTOH, that's what every responsible raw feeder does, so don't feel
like the Lone Ranger.

You will also need to investigate digestive enzymes and various other
dietary supplements. The combination of optimal menu, appropriate
supplements and cleaning up the girl's environment plus time,
patience and fortitude should bring her to stable ground.

It's entirely possible though that just getting her onto a
personalized raw diet will resolve the symptoms. Sometimes life
really is that simple.

Stick with us. We can help.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. 1st meal for 7 week old puppy
Posted by: "gusmyhairyboy" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

Hi,Suzie G. here

Our Golden puppy comes home today. We won't be getting to our house
till after midnight. The breeder has been feeding twice a day Iams
Large puppy. When she gets home I'll be introducing her to 1 Newf,1
Golden,and 4 cats. Not to mention a new yard to poop in(in the dark)
and a gated off kitchen.She will sleep in the crate she arrives in.
(if we get any sleep!! :) ) All of this after midnight.(and after
a 90 min plane ride and a 3 hr. car ride in the dark)

What do you recomend I feed her for her first meal. She will
probably be starving.(maybe was given 1 meal in the morning) I was
thinking of putting down a chicken breast with ribs and skin.
Possibly ribbon cutting some of the meat. Does this sound O.K.? I
was going to let her eat as much as she wanted. (before or after
intros?, she won't have much time to explore, I was going to intro
to the dogs through baby gates ) Should I take the skinall off for
the first meal? leave some on?


This is all very exciting. I've fed adult dogs raw for 9yrs but
never a puppy.

Thankyou!!

Suzie G.,Gus My Hairy Boy (Newf-8 yrs),Beautiful ,Red Delilah and 4
cats ( none of them can even imagine what is about to HIT them!!)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: 1st meal for 7 week old puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

"gusmyhairyboy" <gusmyhairyboy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,Suzie G. here
>
> Our Golden puppy comes home today. We won't be getting to our house
> till after midnight. The breeder has been feeding twice a day Iams
> Large puppy. When she gets home I'll be introducing her to 1 Newf,1
> Golden,and 4 cats. Not to mention a new yard to poop in(in the
dark)
> and a gated off kitchen.She will sleep in the crate she arrives in.
> (if we get any sleep!! :) ) All of this after midnight.(and after
> a 90 min plane ride and a 3 hr. car ride in the dark)
>
> What do you recomend I feed her for her first meal.
*****
Given the amount of turmoil involved in getting from first home to
forever home, it would be my choice to feed a token amount of
uncomplicated food (like skinless, boneless chicken) as the first
meal. I would choose to wait til morning for a "real" meal, just so
I could coherently monitor progress.

No question the first real meal can be rib in chicken breast; pull
the skin if you want to play it safe.

Have fun, be patient--Rome wasn't built in a day.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: 1st meal for 7 week old puppy
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:30 am ((PDT))

I think that sounds like a perfect plan for her first meal. I would
cut through the skin for her, just to give her something to grip while
she figures things out...you may have to do that for all of a day or
two :-)

I would, however, not worry about feeding dinner, or give her some
easy boneless snack when you get home and start on the real stuff the
next morning.

On 7/20/07, gusmyhairyboy <gusmyhairyboy@charter.net> wrote:
> What do you recomend I feed her for her first meal. She will
> probably be starving.(maybe was given 1 meal in the morning) I was
> thinking of putting down a chicken breast with ribs and skin.
> Possibly ribbon cutting some of the meat. Does this sound O.K.? I
> was going to let her eat as much as she wanted. (before or after
> intros?, she won't have much time to explore, I was going to intro
> to the dogs through baby gates ) Should I take the skinall off for
> the first meal? leave some on?
>
>
> This is all very exciting. I've fed adult dogs raw for 9yrs but
> never a puppy.
>
> Thankyou!!
>
> Suzie G.,Gus My Hairy Boy (Newf-8 yrs),Beautiful ,Red Delilah and 4
> cats ( none of them can even imagine what is about to HIT them!!)
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Sterilizing Crate
Posted by: "Diane Mulford" windtalker0955@yahoo.com feedthesparrows
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

I'm new to group and rawfeeding, have a cocker & 2 mini-doxies. The cocker kept getting sick on raw, so my vet (homeo) said to go VERY slow, begin with bones. I'm giving chicken necks/backs and heard the neighbor's cat catch a mouse/rat this week--I'm wondering if the bones left outside are attracting rats. The dogs will not eat bones in the crate if I close the door on the crate. If out of the crate they drag the bones all over. I have arthritis and can't clean my kitchen floor daily, am also unable to close off the kitchen. Any suggestions?
Diane


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Messages in this topic (9)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11827

There are 13 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Dogs normally gain weight after being on raw diet a while and lo
From: costrowski75

2a. Prednisone and raw feeding
From: dinafinkpa
2b. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: Casey Post
2c. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
2d. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Sterilizing Crate
From: Tracy

4a. Digestibility of Pork
From: Trish Chapman
4b. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: Trish Chapman
4d. Re: Digestibility of Pork
From: Lisa Hope

5. Checking in Re Raw Diet
From: elkilpat

6a. Re: Newie to raw feeding needs advice
From: carnesbill

7. Slipper Elm Bark
From: Cdandp2@aol.com


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Dogs normally gain weight after being on raw diet a while and lo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> I would go more by how she looks than what the scale says,
> personally. And, your scale at home may not be the same as the
> vet's, so you may or may not necessarily be able to compare those 2
> numbers.
*****
I've found I invariably guess my dogs weigh more than then really do;
that they look heavier than they are. I feel as if I am feeding them
vast quantities of food but find--when visiting the vet--that they
are easily five pounds less...not that five pounds means much on an
adult Lab or golden.

So I agree: go by how the dog looks. If you think it looks chubby,
and you base your conclusion on its shape, activity level and how it
actually feels to your touch, then for your purposes the dog needs to
lose a few.

Or vice versa.

Recently I was talking the owner of a young Chowchow and suggested as
gently as I know how (which you should all know by now ain't so
gently) her dog lose some weight. She was of course insulted and
said her vet said its weight was right at the breed standard. Except
that on that particular example of breed standard, the breed standard
was just too much. So there it was, bad hips at like 18 months and
already fat. Because the scale said it was just right.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "dinafinkpa" dinafinkpa@yahoo.com dinafinkpa
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:57 pm ((PDT))

Hello - I started feeding my 7 year old choc lab raw food today and she wolfed everything
down. Here's my question: my dog has been on 10 mg of Prednisone since she was 1 in
order to prevent her from scratching herself raw due to her many, many allergies. It's the
only thing that has worked and I have tried everything (shots, acupuncture,etc.) I'm hoping
that the raw food diet will get her off Prednisone; can I go cold turkey on the Pred? Or
should I ween her off it gradually? I'm new to the group and it's been very informative so far.

Thanks in advance,
Dina
Philadelphia

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))


>>can I go cold turkey on the Pred?

No, absolutely not! That would be disasterous, to say the least.

>Or
> should I ween her off it gradually?

Gradually - as in *VERY* gradually. If this dog has been on Pred for six
years (!), you will want to take this extremely, extremely slowly. And
remember, diet is the foundation of good health, but it is by no means a
cure-all.

Good luck.

Casey


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:58 pm ((PDT))

Dina,
Prednisone is a steroid, and can cause rage in anyone, including animals, if not weened off properly, or withdrawals, depending on the animal. It usually comes in tablet form, can be broken in half, and weened off that way, my husband is on it, and has to regulate up and down, and our dogs have been off and on for different reasons, over the years, also, regulate off and on. Yours has been on for so long, I would taper off over a long period rather than a short one, say maybe a month or so, depending on how well he is doing with the raw diet.
Wait and see how the diet goes for a few weeks, keep the prednisone on it's usual dosage, since the diet is new, you don't want to upset the cart with anything else.
After say a month on the diet, and all your kinks are worked out, and the dog is ok, no stomach problems, poops are good, and you've tried a new protein source, then taper off the steroid, only taper off half, for however long that seems to take.
See how the allergies do on the half dose of 5 mg, and if the dog reacts or not to the dosage change, any itch, no itch, an rash, hair loss difference, or hot spots, you know the drill and what to look for in your dogs allergies and how the out breaks occur. If they flair up, go back up on the prednisone, the diet hasn't taken hold just yet. Sometimes, years of kibble, takes a while to undue. And that's ok, you've done it for this long, what's a little longer on the steroid, just to insure that the dog is ok. And when you do go down on the prednisone, you'll know within a couple of days, if the dose is good or not.
If it is ok, and the dog is alright, don't just drop it, no matter what anyone says, it MUST BE TAPERED OFF, you can put a body into shock going off cold turkey. You could kill your dog. Some do just fine, others don't do at all. Don't risk it. Take it slow and easy, just to be safe, and your dog will be fine.
Once it does good on 5mg for about a month, then half that, for another month, and then take 2.5 to once every other day, for about a month. Then you should be able to go down to once a week, for a month, and off completely after that. So it should take about 4 to 6 months to ween off the steroids. That is how we tapered our big dogs, and our large to big dogs off of it when we needed to.
The whole time you are doing the raw diet, changing new meats, adding different bone and stuff, this will be your learning curve. And that is good for you and the dog. Taking your time on the diet and the steroids is always the best plan, for you and your dog.:) And if you have to go back up a little on the steroid, go up the same way you would go down, a little at a time, that way it's not such a shock, and they don't get the really big appetite, all at once, like they usually do when the prednisone goes up too fast, and that does explain, if you didn't know already, the large hungry, I can't get enough, I'll eat whatever isn't nailed down, syndromes! Oh, and the too fast weight gain/loss also, when you change the dosage too. Appetite changes also, when the dose goes up or down, depending on the dog, some will get hungrier when you go up on the dose, others not so, it just depends, yours has been on it for so long, it might have a depression kind of affect, so watch
for that. But I think it will be ok, if you are around, and on top of it, and let your vet know what you are doing, so they will know just in case you have a problem.
They won't agree with the diet, but you can say for your own reasons, you are trying a homeopathic allergy treatment, and are going to ween your dog off the steroid, (so you can test the effectiveness of the treatment) and just wanted them to know, in case there were difficulties, they were aware and could treat them accordingly. That should be all they need to know. And they may give different specific instructions for weening your dog off the steroids that you might prefer to follow, which is great too:)
I know if you are like me, you want your dog off the drugs now, but you can wait, and should wait, it's better for the dog, honest, we've been there. Take your time, trust in the diet, it will work, it did for mine in just two days after I brought the danes home, as puppies, Zena's tummy rash cleared right up, and no more scratching or redness! I knew it would work, just didn't think it would be that quick, for you, it could take time, your dog has been on kibble for years, my puppies were only on it for weeks. So keep us posted, and good luck in Philly.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Prednisone and raw feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:59 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dinafinkpa" <dinafinkpa@...>
wrote:
>
> can I go cold turkey on the Pred? Or
> should I ween her off it gradually?

Dina,
I had a Golden once that was on 5mg of Pred every other day for 6 or
7 years for the same reason as your lab. Yes, I was finally able to
get her off after raw feeding.

If your dog were mine, I would wait 3 or 4 months before making any
change with the Pred. This will get all the kibble residue out of
her system. At that time, if you are giving 10mg every day now, I
would go to 10mg 2 out of 3 days for a couple of weeks. Next I
would go to 10mg every other day for another couple of weeks. Then
try 5mg every other day for another few weeks. Then 5mg one out of
3 days for a few weeks then gone all together. It is really
difficult to get a dog off Pred after being on it for so long.
Anytime she needed it, I would back up a step then continue on. Good
luck.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Sterilizing Crate
Posted by: "Tracy" tracy.ramey@sbcglobal.net veganmomma1
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ash" <want4rain@...> wrote:
>
"id really like to feed him in his
> kennel inside (generous size *rolls eyes* we call it Misters
Palace).any of you ahve kids and feed like this? >
> ashley"


I feed both my dogs in their kennels. The food starts out in a bowl,
but the lab ends up dragging it all over the kennel anyway. She does a
good job cleaning up after herself. She also cleans my schnauzer's
kennel when he's done! I have a two year old who is very into the dogs -
hugging and kissing all over them all the time. I haven't had any kind
of problems so far. I hose the kennel trays down every once in a while,
but I really don't even think that's necessary. So go for it! Just give
it a good rinse now and then if it makes you feel better.

Tracy

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "Trish Chapman" twotheark@verizon.net twotheark
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:02 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
Someone on another list that I am on has said that pork is one of the least
digestible meats that are readily available for us to feed our dogs. I
would like some clarification on this..... I thought it was generally
considered a "good" red meat for the dogs and could even be "preferred" over
something like chicken as far as being a little closer to a "natural prey"
choice. Is there some place where information like this exists?

Trish

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:03 pm ((PDT))

"Trish Chapman" <twotheark@...> wrote:
> Someone on another list that I am on has said that pork is one of the
least
> digestible meats that are readily available for us to feed our dogs.
*****
Did you ask for any support for this statement? While I'm sure someone
smarter than I will provide an answer for you here, it seems to me that
such a statement ought to come complete with justification. You might
ask for substantiation. Be interesting to see what your correspondent
provides.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "Trish Chapman" twotheark@verizon.net twotheark
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:58 pm ((PDT))

I did ask and she said something like one source of her information was from
a raw feeding list of 4000 and another was her holistic vet ......so,
somewhat vague in the justification department.

Trish

----- Original Message -----
From: "costrowski75" <Chriso75@AOL.COM>


>> Someone on another list that I am on has said that pork is one of the
> least
>> digestible meats that are readily available for us to feed our dogs.
> *****
> Did you ask for any support for this statement? While I'm sure someone
> smarter than I will provide an answer for you here, it seems to me that
> such a statement ought to come complete with justification. You might
> ask for substantiation. Be interesting to see what your correspondent
> provides.
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: Digestibility of Pork
Posted by: "Lisa Hope" GreyhopeWeis@hotmail.com greyhope_weimaraners
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:59 pm ((PDT))

>Someone on another list that I am on has said that pork is one of the least
>digestible meats that are readily available for us to feed our dogs. I
>would like some clarification on this..... I thought it was generally
>considered a "good" red meat for the dogs and could even be "preferred"
>over
>something like chicken as far as being a little closer to a "natural prey"
>choice. Is there some place where information like this exists?

I totally agree with Chris - justification !!!

I feed young puppies pork and they at times have handled pork much better
than some other meats, I would think that very fatty pork may not be the
best thing to feed, however now days the way that table meat producing pigs
are raised is very different to feeding swill and other rubbish that was
once the way that pigs were fed.

My dogs love it too :)


Lisa
Greyhope Weis - Aust
http://www.users.bigpond.com/greyhopeweis
GreyhopeWeis@bigpond.com

_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5. Checking in Re Raw Diet
Posted by: "elkilpat" elkilpat@yahoo.ca elkilpat
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:08 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding raw for about 4 months now. Bailey is 75 lbs, golden
dude, 17 months. I just wanted to check in with others in this group re
what I'm feeding, to ensure all bases are being covered. I feed 2
meals a day altho breakfast is really quite small - this works for us
both. He gets about 1/2 lb approx of meat in the morning, sometimes a
chicken foot or piece of liver or heart as well. Then dinners are
about 1-1.5 lb (give or take) - a variety of (1) straight meat/offal
mix, (2) chicken 1/3's, (3)chicken legs with liver or heart, (4)chicken
carcass with some added meat,(5)bison,(6)lamb necks (good sized
chunks. I throw in an egg several times a week. He seems to be doing
extremely well, very active, happy, balanced, no problems with stools,
etc. So, I'm assuming all is well. For those who have fed raw for much
longer are we missing anything?

Ellen & Bailey

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Newie to raw feeding needs advice
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lmustoe" <lmustoe@...> wrote:
>
> i was wondering how much and which meat would be best for her.
>
Hi Lee,
Welcome to whe world of raw feeding. For my suggestions on
beginning raw feeding, check out my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm - Read the book "Work
Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at

http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF format
for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

If you have more questions (and you will) ask them here. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. Slipper Elm Bark
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:55 am ((PDT))

Someone asked why I add honey (sorry, I lost the e-mail as I was responding
to it....love my AOL...NOT).

But I think it's just for taste. The SEB is really bitter and my dog takes
it better with the honey. If it has another function, I don't know what it
is. The recipe was given to me by someone on my kidney list a few years ago.

Carol for Spencer

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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