Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 17, 2007

Saturday, November 17, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12288

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Digest Number 1511
From: Shelly

2a. my dog lost her front teeth
From: meralynn58
2b. Re: my dog lost her front teeth
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
From: delcaste

5a. where do I start?
From: dholloway26
5b. Re: where do I start?
From: Maggie Smith
5c. Re: where do I start?
From: dholloway26
5d. Re: where do I start?
From: katkellm

6a. Beef Shortribs? Did I buy the right thing?
From: cynthiashankman
6b. Re: Beef Shortribs? Did I buy the right thing?
From: costrowski75

7.1. Re: Gorge and fast
From: John

8. some meat ?s:
From: laurena_green

9a. Re: Is this Correct?
From: Diane
9b. Re: Is this Correct?
From: katkellm

10a. Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
From: Michelle Urbano
10b. Re: Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
From: GreysareGreyt
10c. Re: Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
From: nikkisevy@aol.com

11a. What about yogurt? probiotic
From: dholloway26
11b. Re: What about yogurt? probiotic
From: Sandee Lee

12a. Hypothyroidism and Joint Tablets
From: swayzepetsitting
12b. Re: Hypothyroidism and Joint Tablets
From: Casey Post
12c. Re: Hypothyroidism and Joint Tablets
From: Sandee Lee
12d. Hypothyroidism and Joint Tablets
From: Maiakitas@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Digest Number 1511
Posted by: "Shelly" StuartLittle@comcast.net stuartjeanlittle
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:52 am ((PST))

I experimented for a really long time too. Lady (7 yr. old (today), 110 lb
Ridgeback mix) has had TPLO on both knees. I FINALLY found what works for
her, it's "Run Free" by Wholistic. It does have flax seed in it which will
turn some folks off, but it's very little and it doesn't bother her, and
bottom line, it WORKS for her. On everything else I've tried she was still
limping. Now she runs around like a puppy. (she also gets cod liver oil and
salmon oil)

Her 1.5 tsp has:
2250 mg Chondroitin (from shark cartlage)
1125 mg Glucosamine sulfate
1125 mg MSM
225 mg Ester C

I mix it with egg and whatever oil she's getting that day and she laps it
right up, then hand her whatever she's getting for breakfast. This morning
it's a big roast with a nice big chewy cartlage in the middle (today's her
birthday).

Shelly

On Friday 16 November 2007 01:52, jennifer_hell wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angel z" <angelznest@...> wrote:
...i've started supplementing with etogesic and msm
daily (in addition to her regular vit. e, fish oil, and gluco/chondroitin)
and can report absolutely NO improvement so far.

Gluc/Chondr/MSM combined would take about four months IME to kick in.
I had to experiment for a few months until I got my girl painfree. The
arthritis info on dogaware.com was what helped me find the right
stuff. It's different for every dog. Mine is pain free with 1000mg
ester-c, 1400Gluc/1200Chondr.(forgot how much MSM), 500mg DLPA and
salmon oil daily (55lb pitbull girl).

Jennifer

--
"A house without either a cat or a dog is the house of a scoundrel."

Portuguese Proverb

Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. my dog lost her front teeth
Posted by: "meralynn58" merdavi@ufl.edu meralynn58
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:52 am ((PST))

Hi,

I'm considering switching to raw. Audrey is a wonderful beagle-mix,
about 40 lbs. She came to me about 6 months ago. She's about 8 years
old and been through hell, but she's the sweetest dog in the world.
One thing is that she has worn down her front four teeth to nothing
on both her upper and lower jaw and all of her canines are short and
absolutely flat. (From trying to get out of a cage?) Her back teeth
are pretty okay. She gnaws on bones, but I'm not sure how she'll do
with eating raw bones.

I know, just try and see what happens, but can you suggest where I
should start? Or after chicken bones, what will be easiest for her
next? I am considering grinding them and then giving her treat bones
to gnaw on separately for her to work on for her teeth. I've been
giving her a lot of bones as treats and the vet is amazed at how much
better her teeth have gotten.

Thanks!

Merrie Davidson

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: my dog lost her front teeth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:24 am ((PST))

"meralynn58" <merdavi@...> wrote:

> One thing is that she has worn down her front four teeth to nothing
> on both her upper and lower jaw and all of her canines are short and
> absolutely flat. (From trying to get out of a cage?) Her back teeth
> are pretty okay. She gnaws on bones, but I'm not sure how she'll do
> with eating raw bones.
*****
She'll do fine, although you may need to choose "easier" bones for her
untl she develops jaw strength.

FWIW, two of my dogs were seven when I switched them to raw and both
were dedicated chewers and both had worn down their teeth so that the
molars, premolars and incisors were stubby things and the canines were,
well, abbreviated. Until they were twelve they were fully capable of
eating pork necks, turkey necks and legs and thighs, anything chicken
(except skin), deer necks, anything goat, anything rabbit. Bones that
could be crushed were not an issue. What did sometimes present
problems was skin, since neither dog could slice through it.

So what I would do with skin is preslice it, or perforate it so that
could break apart; otherwise they'd swallow lengths of it and gag. The
bones were easy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:30 am ((PST))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Is tripe a requirement? I thought it was optional.
*****
It is not a requirement and it is optional.

> I am still a bit lost on what is considered organ (other than the 5%
> liver).
*****
Kidney and spleen plus various glands that we call organs but aren't:
pancreas, thymus. The inside stuff that isn't heart. That's a good
enough definition for a raw feeder. If we were med students we'd need
to know for sure but we're not so we don't.

I thought heart was organ but read it wasn't...
*****
It's a muscle that is an organ. You should feed it as muscle meat;
when doctors transplant it, it's an organ.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:12 am ((PST))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
>What do they mean by minimally processed? I have dogs
> that are prone to itching and don't want to aggravate a condition
they
> have.
*****
First off, enhancements may not aggravate (or precipitate)
conditions. Not all dogs react to the injected substances. I prefer
not to go there at all, but for others who are less annoyed by this
stuff it may indeed be okay to feed enhanced birds.

Here is the best definition of "minimally processed" that I could
find without getting compulsive about it; please note that it also
addresses "natural" which isn't part of "minimally processed",
though "minimally processed is part of "natural:

http://www.electronicretailermag.com/info/0707_ccl.html

***Under the USDA rules, a product may only be labeled "natural" if:
(1) the product does not contain any artificial or synthetic
ingredients; and (2) the product and its ingredients are not more
than "minimally processed." Minimal processing includes certain
traditional processes used to make food edible, or to preserve it, or
to make it safe for human consumption (such as smoking, roasting,
freezing, drying and fermenting). It also includes any physical
process that does not fundamentally alter the raw product and/or that
only separates a whole, intact food into component parts (such as
meat grinding and pressing fruits to produce juices).

Severe processes such as solvent extraction, acid hydrolysis and
chemical bleaching go beyond these minimal processing standards. The
USDA, on a case-by-case basis, may allow products containing
ingredients that have been more than minimally processed to be
labeled "natural," if it can be shown that the use of such
ingredients would not significantly alter the character of the
product to the point that it could no longer be considered
natural.***

Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:10 pm ((PST))

>
> http://www.electronicretailermag.com/info/0707_ccl.html

Thanks for the explanation. Good link.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. where do I start?
Posted by: "dholloway26" dholloway26@cox.net dholloway26
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:35 am ((PST))

OK, really excited about going back to what is natural for dogs! My
husband fed our dogue de bordeaux (French mastiff) this morning and
gave him 2 leg quarters. Well, he looked at it and the first one took
him about 25 minutes to consume, he was not sure what to do with it..
the second one took about 8 minutes! Yes, he caught on quickly!

I also have 4 other dogs, a boxer, an american bulldog, queensland
heeler and an english mastiff. Since we are new, we are starting first
with our dogue who has allergies (suspect the grain in kibble) and
going to see cost. With 5 dogs and 3 kids in college we do the best we
can...

How do you decide how much to feed?

other words of wisdom?

newbie on the block :)
smiles
debi

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: where do I start?
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:06 am ((PST))

WOW - 5 dogs AND 3 kids in college? Who did you bribe in the
admissions office?

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

Maggie, Rufus, Oliver and Mickey
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dholloway26" <dholloway26@...>
wrote:

With 5 dogs and 3 kids in college we do the best we can...

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: where do I start?
Posted by: "dholloway26" dholloway26@cox.net dholloway26
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:22 pm ((PST))

OK!! hee hee, all kids unfortunately have their own student loans and
we help out with car insurance, cell phones, foods, books ... so much
easier when they were little!!! course it does help that i work for the
university and getting reduced tuition!

but now back to the matter at hand. Is there a calculation for
deciding how much raw food is given?

HELP!
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5d. Re: where do I start?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dholloway26" <dholloway26@...> wrote:
> How do you decide how much to feed?
>> other words of wisdom?

Hi Debi,
You need to feed 2-3% of the dog's ideal adult weight per day. I
would start closer to 2% and then adjust the amount later on if you
see the dog needs a little more food. I would stick with chicken for
one week. Since you have largish dogs, you could buy whole chickens
and cut into serving size hunks for your crew. After a week if all is
going good, you can pick another protein to feed. I fed turkey
second. Feed for a week and if all is smooth, pick another
meat...There are a couple of opinions on when to introduce organ
meats. Me personally, at the end of the first week, i fed a little
chicken liver. I felt that way i could say i fed through the whole
critter. Some people recommend no organs for several weeks. I guess
i would gauge this by how my dog was doing. My dogs never had loose
stools, so it worked ok for me. If you have some any adjustment
difficulties, i would wait the couple of weeks. I think that you
should know that loose stools are not the same as diarrhea. Diarrhea
is brought on by bacteria...or sickness. Loose stools, though messy
or disruptive to sleep because they always seem to occur during the
middle of the night, do not mean your dog is sick. They often result
from a few newbie mistakes: too much food: too much new food too
fast: introducing organs too soon or too much: too much fat. Variety
of parts from a variety of critters is the real recipe for feeding.
It helps to remember that 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other
organs constitute the make up of the prey animal that wolves would
eat, so that should serve as a loose guide in judging what you feed.
Not every meal has to be prey animal perfect. Balance is achieved
over time. Don't stress, drink coffee while you watch your dogs eat
and celebrate the moments of your life. Raw feeding has been as much
fun for me as it has been for my dogs. Wow, i really rambled. HTH,
KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Beef Shortribs? Did I buy the right thing?
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:43 am ((PST))

Hi ~

I have read here that beef ribs are too hard to actually eat, but that
the meat can be eaten off the rib. Right?

On that premiss, I bought "beef shortribs". Beef shortribs is what it
says on the package. The ribs are about 2.5 inches wide by 9 inches
long.

Did I buy the right thing? Can I give this to my dog? My dog weighs
30 lbs. and is a very good chewer.

Thanks.

Cynthia

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Beef Shortribs? Did I buy the right thing?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:46 pm ((PST))

"cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
> I have read here that beef ribs are too hard to actually eat, but
that
> the meat can be eaten off the rib. Right?
*****
Genrally, yes. But not unequivocally. Some powercrunchers can muscle
right through beef ribs, both spare and short.

> On that premiss, I bought "beef shortribs". Beef shortribs is what
it
> says on the package. The ribs are about 2.5 inches wide by 9 inches
> long.
*****
Yup, them sound like short ribs all right. They are separated, right?
How much meat does the package offer, compared to bone?

>Can I give this to my dog? My dog weighs
> 30 lbs. and is a very good chewer.
*****
I don't know if a 30lb dog can polish off a short rib. I don't think
my border collie can but she's am ambitious eater so I think I'll pass
on them. I gave one (once) to my 55lb Lab (she with the worn down
teeth) and she chomped through at least half the bone before I rescued
it from her (or her from it). I do not feed them; I don't try to feed
edible beef bone. I'm perfectly content to feed boneless beef or to
offer a completely inedible bone that's slathered in meat (like a fully
fleshed out shank).

If you think your girl is a considerate eater, she may do fine on a
short rib: Either chomping through it without haste, or ripping off the
meat, worrying the ends and edges but leaving the greater part of the
bone unravaged. My guess is this is a "try it and see" situation.

Fat lotta help, hey?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7.1. Re: Gorge and fast
Posted by: "John" jcdambrosio@yahoo.com man_in_the_moon_guy
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:48 pm ((PST))

Hi Guys and Gals,

Thanks for your responses. I've actually been feeding raw for quite
some time. My first American Bulldog was fed raw until he passed
suddenly at 18 months from an undiagnosed heart problem, and my girl
now has been fed raw since she was 6 weeks old when we got her -
she'll be 6 years old on December 1.

I have fed whole before, whole rabbits, whole turkeys, whole chicken,
although not for some time so I can't honestly remember her response
to them. I can definitely see how the necks and backs could have too
much bone, something I didn't consider before.

I wouldn't define 2 turkey necks as a gorge either, but she won't eat
more than 3 at a sitting, even if I have 5 in there, and at the 3
she'll have the gas and probably vomiting, so that was my dilemma on
even allowing a gorge to take place with what I was feeding.

I'll pick up a whole chicken this weekend as I'm down to my last 2
necks. I'll feed those necks with some extra boneless breasts that I
have to be done with them and look for whole from now on and see what
happens.

Any suggestions on whole in Northern New Jersey - Bergen County?

Thanks again!

John

Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. some meat ?s:
Posted by: "laurena_green" laurensa@earthlink.net laurena_green
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

Hi all,

I haven't posted for some time but have a few meat questions to raise now.
I just scored some bison tails, and a huge beef heart, through my co-op and want to know

1) Is the beef blood/juice that drains copiously from the thawed heart worth saving if I
have cramped freezer space? i.e. Is it as nutritious as the flesh? It *is* grassfed & organic if
that matters...?

2) Would bison tails be considered bone or is it more like cartilage? and turkey tails?

3) Should the bison be frozen a few weeks for parasites if it came from a local coop?

Gemma has been dining on raw for almost 4 months now and has loved everything I have
offered her! I'm also thrilled to be past my initial learning/adjustment phase which I
stressed over way too much. It's so nice when it begins to feel as simple as it really is.

Thanks newbies, oldsters, & mods!
Lauren and Gemma (poodle-schnauzer)

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Is this Correct?
Posted by: "Diane" springmother@msn.com springmother99
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

> If you go to the store and get a 2.5lb
> chicken, each quarter will be about a day's worth of food. Hope that
> helps.
>
> Andrea

When feeding a small dog one quarter of a 2.5lb chicken, would that be
fed once per day? Or cut into even smaller amt. to feed twice per day?

I'm new to this and trying to extrapolate this info for my two 25-30lb
Beagles. Thanks from another newbie.

Diane

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Is this Correct?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:52 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Diane" <springmother@...> wrote:

> When feeding a small dog one quarter of a 2.5lb chicken, would that be
> fed once per day? Or cut into even smaller amt. to feed twice per day?

Hi Diane,
If you were to feed a quarter of a chicken that is that size to a 30lb
dog, you would only feed once a day. If you want to feed twice a day,
you'll have to cut the quarter in half. Basically, you are looking to
feed about a half a pound a day. If your dogs have been having loose
stools, i would go for the twice a day feeding for a while. KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
Posted by: "Michelle Urbano" chelleu@bellsouth.net houndlover
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:10 pm ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

I have two rescued greyhounds that I would like to start feeding raw.
Was just wondering if there are any other owners that have gone to
this diet and how their dogs have done.
Thanks

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
Posted by: "GreysareGreyt" greyzz@sbcglobal.net morganmybud
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle Urbano" <chelleu@...>
wrote:
>> I have two rescued greyhounds that I would like to start feeding raw.
> Was just wondering if there are any other owners that have gone to
> this diet and how their dogs have done.
> >
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have three greys that eat RAW. No problems at all. I started
feeding RAW two years ago because one of my greys was getting picky on
K*(**ble and she has seisures. Then a year ago my boy grey has
cancer. Feeding RAW has been good for them. I feed mostly chicken,
pork, organs, and some beef when cheap. Turkey is good for this time
of year to find since it is cheap.

Debbie
Ford, Morgan and Edie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10c. Re: Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
Posted by: "nikkisevy@aol.com" nikkisevy@aol.com mavreenhering
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:52 pm ((PST))

Hi,

I have a 17 yr old grey that I started feeding raw about 3 years
ago. She has done great and holds her weight great. She used to be a picky eater
with kibble but now she eats everything. The switch has been the best thing
for her.

Nicole

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. What about yogurt? probiotic
Posted by: "dholloway26" dholloway26@cox.net dholloway26
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:11 pm ((PST))

How often is that fed? Is it daily basis?
thanks again, newbie for now but hope to "get it soon"

thanks!
debi

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: What about yogurt? probiotic
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:32 pm ((PST))

Never! :) Seriously many dogs are lactose intolerant plus the tiny bit of
beneficial bacteria found in yogurt are going to be killed by those strong
stomach acids that are designed to kill bacteria! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "dholloway26" <dholloway26@cox.net>

How often is that fed? Is it daily basis?
thanks again, newbie for now but hope to "get it soon"

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Hypothyroidism and Joint Tablets
Posted by: "swayzepetsitting" skittles888@aol.com swayzepetsitting
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:04 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone. My nine year old border collie along with my three
cats have been on raw for the past 3 days. My dog loved it from the
beginning and two of my cats were reluctant for only the first few
meals. Anyway, a quick back story on my doggie:

My BC had hip dysplacia when she was younger and had a hip replacement
as a result. She has since been on glucosamine tablets for joint
pain. She only shows signs of pain when she wakes up and before bed.
She has also been on thyroxine for hypothyroidism for the past 5-6
months. Neither her weight nor her blood work has shown signs of the
medicine working (she is about 10 lbs over weight).

I have tried everything and I finally learned about raw a few months
ago. Now that she is on it, should I keep her on the thyroxine? I
know that raw food will not cure everything, but the medicine has done
nothing so far. And what about the joint tablets? She actually
stopped limping when I increased the amount of exercise she got (about
4 years ago), but my vet recommended the tablets. Thanks in advance!

Swayze and Bean Dip, Sniff, McGuirk, and Finnigan

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Hypothyroidism and Joint Tablets
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

> I have tried everything and I finally learned about raw a few months
> ago. Now that she is on it, should I keep her on the thyroxine?

Yes, BUT - you must speak to your vet about getting something more effective
for her! If the blood work shows no improvement, she either needs a dosage
change or a new med (there are a couple of choices in thyroid meds
available). Why your vet has allowed this to go on for more than five
months is beyond me, but it's high time that something changes for her.

Muscle and joint pain can be part of hypothyroidism, so you may not really
know how much of her pain is the hip replacement and how much is the
hypothyroidism (if any) until you get her levels up to where they need to
be.

Feeding raw, unfortunately, will NOT cure hypothryoidism.

> And what about the joint tablets?

Up to you. If you want to continue with them for now, that's fine.

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: Hypothyroidism and Joint Tablets
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

Hi Swayze,

You absolutely do need to keep her on thyroid replacement, however I am
concerned that she may not be on the appropriate dose or that you need to
change the supplement she is on. Did you have her bloodwork sent to Dr.
Dodds for a full 6 panel test? That really is necessary to properly
diagnose and treat thyroid disease.

All glucosamine products do not work the same on all animals. You may also
need to change to another product for that problem. However, you also may
see some improvement just by switching to raw. Carbohydrates are
inflammatory so getting rid of grains, etc, could make a difference in her
comfort. Also the addition of fish or salmon oil would help immensely.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "swayzepetsitting" <skittles888@aol.com>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12d. Hypothyroidism and Joint Tablets
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:46 pm ((PST))

Hi,

Let me comment about your dog's thyroid problem. The first thing is you need
to be sure that you have had a correct thyroid assessment done, and there are
only two places in this country that I trust to have complete thyroid panels
run and one is Hemopet run by Dr. Jean Dodds, my personal favorite and Michigan
State. If they were not done there and just run by a regular lab, you may not
know your dog's true thyroid levels. I like sending them to Dr. Dodd, because
she also considers the dog's age, etc., when looking at the levels.

Once that is done, the dog will have to be put on a levothyroxine or Soloxine
(name brand) and there is some debate about the efficacy of the generic
versus the name brand. The dosage will have to be adjusted and the dog's thyroid
levels retested until the right dosage is found for your dog. It can take some
time. There are also some dogs that may also need to be on an additional
medication to not only adjust the T4 levels, but some my need additional meds to
adjust the T3 as well, but that is not the norm.

Most dogs do need to remain on thyroid meds the rest of their lives, assuming
your dog does have a true thyroid disorder, but it is important to get her on
the right dosage. A raw diet will not correct a true endocrine imbalance, but
it will most certainly make her a much healthier dog in the long run and help
her endocrine system work as well as it possibly can.

Good luck with her.

Regards,
Carla

**************************************
See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12287

There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Gorge and fast
From: John
1.2. Re: Gorge and fast
From: Denise Strother
1.3. Re: Gorge and fast
From: costrowski75
1.4. Re: Gorge and fast
From: katkellm

2.1. Re: Chicken Backs
From: windmilldairy
2.2. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski
2.3. Re: Chicken Backs
From: carnesbill

3a. newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
From: ben
3b. Re: newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
From: carnesbill
3c. Re: newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
From: ben

4a. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: junmollmom
4b. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: T Smith
4d. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Is the raw honeymoon over??? LOL
From: linoleum5017

6a. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
From: delcaste

7a. pigs heads
From: dody liberato
7b. Re: pigs heads
From: carnesbill

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Gorge and fast
Posted by: "John" jcdambrosio@yahoo.com man_in_the_moon_guy
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone,

I've read that it could be best to gorge and fast a dog, so instead of
the usual 2-3% of desired body weight in food, go with 4-6% one day,
and then fast the next. Sounds like a great idea, but whenever my
girl, an American Bulldog, has more than 2 turkey necks in one sitting
(or a large back, etc), she has the absolute worst gas. She weighs 61
pounds but could probably go up to 72 or so. Occasionally this will
also be followed up with some gagging during the night and a nice pile
of vomit in the middle of the night, and having to let her out for
grass eating. This is almost always the case if she eats a back that
is too big, but 3 necks will do that to her 60-70% of the time as
well. It's the same if I feed her chicken, so I don't think it's a
turkey allergy or anything. The pieces are big enough where I don't
think she's wolfing (pun intended) them down without tearing them up,
plus they are always frozen solid so she has to really work on them.

Any suggestions? Do I need to switch to another meat altogether? If
so, what is recommended and affordable?

Thanks!

John and Bella

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________

1.2. Re: Gorge and fast
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:29 pm ((PST))

Hi John,
I have foster dogs, my dog, and do in home daycare and boarding, so I
feed quite a few dogs on any given day. Right now, I have 3
Chihuahuas, an APBT, a wire-haired mixed breed momma dog and her 2 9wk
old pups and a lab at my house. Of those dogs the two female
Chihuahuas are the only two that eat gorge and fast. They are both
older, 6 & 9, and one is spayed. The other dogs are either self-
regulators or they had issues with eating two or three days worth of
food at a time. If it doesn't work for her, there is no benefit to
doing it. I don't think anyone on this list thinks of gorge and fast
as a "better" way to feed than daily feeding. It is just another way
to feed raw. I try different things with each dog and we stick with
what works for that dog. One of the great things about raw is it's
adaptability to each individual dog and their owner. It's not a cookie
cutter kinda thing. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jcdambrosio@...> wrote:
I've read that it could be best to gorge and fast a dog, so instead of
the usual 2-3% of desired body weight in food, go with 4-6% one day,
and then fast the next.

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________

1.3. Re: Gorge and fast
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

"John" <jcdambrosio@...> wrote:
>
> I've read that it could be best to gorge and fast a dog, so instead
of
> the usual 2-3% of desired body weight in food, go with 4-6% one day,
> and then fast the next.
*****
Yup, it could indeed be best. It's certainly a natural way to
provide fully engaging meals. And certainly the dog's physiology is
built to process food exactly in that manner. But if the human can't
get behind it, or if the dog is too new to raw food, or if the dog
has digestive issues than are well beyond the realm of "just starting
out", then "gorge and fast" may not be practical. I suggest it might
well be a goal for a rawfeeder, but it ain't a requirement.

whenever my
> girl, an American Bulldog, has more than 2 turkey necks in one
sitting
> (or a large back, etc), she has the absolute worst gas.
*****
More than two turkey necks is not necessarily how "gorge" is defined;
and given the amount of bone in more than two turkey necks it's not
surprising that such a meal would produce gas. If your girls's just
started eating raw food (or has no little or no experience with big
meals), there's even more reason for her to respond with digestive
distress. Personally, I would not use mega turkey necks meals as a
measure of your dog's ability (current or potential) to eat large
meals.

Occasionally this will
> also be followed up with some gagging during the night and a nice
pile
> of vomit in the middle of the night, and having to let her out for
> grass eating. This is almost always the case if she eats a back
that
> is too big, but 3 necks will do that to her 60-70% of the time
*****
I think her response is more a reaction to too much bone than it is a
rejection of Big Food. There's little need to feed three turkey
necks in one meal and what you are seeing I believe is a pretty
normal response to that sort of excess. Probably you shouldn't do
that again.

It's the same if I feed her chicken, so I don't think it's a
> turkey allergy or anything. The pieces are big enough where I don't
> think she's wolfing (pun intended) them down without tearing them
up,
> plus they are always frozen solid so she has to really work on them.
*****
The chicken you feed as Big Food should be a whole bird, not several
parts, frozen or not. Big Food is not just for the purpose of
feeding lots of pieces. Big Food's primary job (at least imo) is to
make the meal engrossing, engaging; one that offers a full body
workout. Big Food removes the need for feeding frozen meals.

So you should be thinking whole chicken instead of parts; whole or
half turkeys instead of necks; a whole fish instead of a fillet; a
whole rabbit instead of a jumble of parts; a leg of lamb rather than
a neck; a pork shoulder roast instead of a pork neck bone.

I don't know how long you've been feeding raw, but my guess is not
long. And it also sounds like you've not had much experience with
whole anythings. I think for now you should not be considering gorge
and fast. There's no rush. Take time to learn to feed meals of
varying sizes; take the time to feed beyond turkey necks and backs.
You may find neither of you can be comfortable with Big Food/small
food variations, but with more OJT you'll have a better basis on
which to evaluate your options.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________

1.4. Re: Gorge and fast
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jcdambrosio@...> wrote:
>Sounds like a great idea, but whenever my
> girl, an American Bulldog, has more than 2 turkey necks in one sittif
> (or a large back, etc), she has the absolute worst gas... followed
up with some gagging during the night and a nice pile
> of vomit in the middle of the night, and having to let her out for
> grass eating.

Hi John,
I think that maybe the problem is the cut of meats that you are
offering for a big meal and not the meats themselves . Backs and
necks tend to be bony pieces, and even though we are talking about
balance over time not every meal, there is a possibility that backs
and necks are just too much bone at one time for your dog. When i
think of big meals, i think more about a big size with lots of meat,
not just more food. So, i would say you might want to try a hunk of
pork roast or add a hunk of boneless chicken to tag along with the
chicken back. Instead of multiple necks think a bigger cut of turkey.
Another thing to consider, which i'm sorry i don't remember, is how
long you have been raw feeding. I think that some new to big meal
dogs have an adjustment period to processing more food in the same
lines that a new to raw dog might have when they start raw food
initially. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "windmilldairy" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

Here is my situation, I have an unlimited supply of deer and cows. It just seems like there
isn't enough bone that the dogs will/can eat. That is why I was wondering about the chicken
backs just supplement them for the bone they need their diets.

Pat

Messages in this topic (56)
________________________________________________________________________

2.2. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:55 pm ((PST))

can i have some of your unlimited supple?????:)
mallory

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (56)
________________________________________________________________________

2.3. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:55 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...>
wrote:
>
> That is why I was wondering about the chicken
> backs just supplement them for the bone they need their diets.

Sure, feed them, no problem. I feed them all the time.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (56)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
Posted by: "ben" ben1721@yahoo.com ben1721
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:11 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone! My 9 week old Newfy pup has been doing a great job with
the chicken breast and leg quarters we've been giving him this week.
The thing that is concerning me is that I've read that giant breed
puppies can develop skeletal abnormalities from having too much
calcium in their diet. Should I try to reduce the amount of bone he
eats? On the USDA site it says that chicken legs (is this the same as
a leg quarter?) are 27% bone. I know we won't be feeding him mostly
chicken leg quarters forever, but should I be adding in more boneless
chicken now (even though he's only 3 days into eating raw)? Is this
something that will also balance out over time? or does the blood
calcium level need to be maintained more consistently? Am I being
overly concerned? I'm just worried because he's going to be growing
rapidly over the next 1-2 years and I want to do what I can to prevent
orthopedic problems.

I'm also looking into other meaty bones to introduce after we're sure
he's done adjusting to the chicken. Are beef and pork neck bones meaty
enough for a meal and are the bones edible for a puppy?

OK, that's probably enough questions for one day! Thanks for your help!

Rachel, Ben, & Moose

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:56 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <ben1721@...> wrote:
>
> The thing that is concerning me is that I've read that giant breed
> puppies can develop skeletal abnormalities from having too much
> calcium in their diet.

I got my Thor(now 3yo Dane) when he was 12 weeks old. I fed him
chicken backs only the first week he was here. I added chicken
quarters the next week and turkey necks the next. Then I added some
meaty meats. I go to all this to explain that I paid no attention
to how much bone he was getting and he had no problems. I think if
you watch overall volume of what he is fed he will be ok. You don't
want to give him too much nutrition to grow too fast.

> Should I try to reduce the amount of bone he eats?

I would watch the total amount of food fed.

> On the USDA site it says that chicken legs (is this the same as
> a leg quarter?) are 27% bone.

No, chicken leg quarters are leg, thigh, and part of the back all
still attached together in one piece. Quarters are 35% bone.

> I know we won't be feeding him mostly
> chicken leg quarters forever, but should I be adding in
> more boneless chicken now (even though he's only 3 days
> into eating raw)?

I would wait a couple of weeks until you are sure he is adjusting to
real food first. Too little bone can cause digestive problems in
newly switched dogs.

> Is this something that will also balance out over time?

Don't worry about balance. Balance is a human measurement and means
little if anything at all. Feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a
variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. Exact
percentages or ratios don't matter. Do you worry about percentages
in your diet? Why worry about them in your dog's diet?

> or does the blood
> calcium level need to be maintained more consistently?

The dog does that automatically.

> Am I being overly concerned?

yep

> I'm just worried because he's going to be growing
> rapidly over the next 1-2 years and I want to do what I can
> to prevent orthopedic problems.

Don't feed him too much and you'll be ok. Keep him on the thin side.

> I'm also looking into other meaty bones to introduce after
> we're sure he's done adjusting to the chicken.

Don't think of them as meaty bones. Feed animal parts. Some will
have bone, some won't.

> Are beef and pork neck bones meaty
> enough for a meal and are the bones edible for a puppy?

I don't feed them. I prefer to feed pork and beef roasts with
little or no bone. I don't feed any beef bone at all. Sometimes I
feed pork bones.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
Posted by: "ben" ben1721@yahoo.com ben1721
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:00 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign your emails ++++++++++

Thanks, Bill! I had a feeling I was trying to make it more complicated
than it really is. :-)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "junmollmom" junmollmom@yahoo.com junmollmom
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST))

I have one more question.
Is it a good idea to give Molly some tripe already? Or Shall I stick
with Chicken breat for a while?
Thanks for your help.

Keiko
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date:
> 11/15/2007
> > 9:34 AM
> >
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:00 pm ((PST))

"junmollmom" <junmollmom@...> wrote:
>
> I have one more question.
> Is it a good idea to give Molly some tripe already? Or Shall I stick
> with Chicken breat for a while?
*****
I don't see any reason to wait; but I recommend you add SOME tripe to
her chicken breast meals and build up gently to large doses of the
stuff. When you're both more comfortable again, you can start
experimenting with larger quantities.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:19 pm ((PST))

Is tripe a requirement? I thought it was optional.
I am still a bit lost on what is considered organ (other than the 5%
liver). I thought heart was organ but read it wasn't...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:00 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Is tripe a requirement?

No, I have never fed any in my entire 5 years of feeding raw. There
are many if not most that have never fed it.

> I thought heart was organ but read it wasn't...

Techinically, heart is an organ but it is made up almost entirely of
muscle meat and fat so as far as diet goes, it is meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Is the raw honeymoon over??? LOL
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:59 pm ((PST))

Glad to hear you got to the bottom of it, Nancy.

Way to go!
Lynne

Riley was simply trying to hold out for
> something "better". We're just a few weeks into raw and started
with
> chicken-only meals. We had just started adding variety, but this
day
> we went back to the usual chicken and he was expecting something
> else. We pretty much let him know that what we give is what he
> gets...lol...so there hasn't been a repeat of this behavior from
> him. He now eats the chicken and everything else with gusto!
>
> Nancy
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:00 pm ((PST))

> I think it's odd that "minimally processed " can co-exist with added
> anything, but obviously there was a loophole somewhere.
> Chris O

Hi, Chris. I went to buy turkeys and all of them had minimally
processed on them. They didn't mention anything about a broth or
anything else. What do they mean by minimally processed? I have dogs
that are prone to itching and don't want to aggravate a condition they
have. Thanks for your help.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. pigs heads
Posted by: "dody liberato" halelehua001@yahoo.com halelehua001
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:06 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign your emails ++++++++++

aloha,
i am on my 2nd day of feeding raw to my 11yr old toy poodle & 3 yr old basenji female. 2 questions:
#1 i found frozen pigs head at the market today. would that be alright to feed, also, could they have squid and if so, how often?
#2 i have 1 basenji due to whelp dec. 3 and another due dec 25. should i wait to start them on raw or would it be ok to start right away?
just 1 more thing - my poodle won't eat the chicken wings i got to start them off on. he loves the ground turkeyburger w/small amt. raw pureed veggies i give them at night. would it be ok to give him raw lamb flap instead of the chicken wings?
halelehua

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better pen pal.
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: pigs heads
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:59 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, dody liberato <halelehua001@...>
wrote:
>
> #1 i found frozen pigs head at the market today. would that
> be alright to feed, also, could they have squid and if so,
> how often?

I would feed pigs head only if it had brains, eyeballs and tongue
still intact. I wouldn't feed it to newly switched dogs as it would
be too big a challenge that early in the feeding. Wait a few months
on the heads. I woudln't feed squid at all anytime.

> #2 i have 1 basenji due to whelp dec. 3 and another due
> dec 25. should i wait to start them on raw or would it be ok
> to start right away?

I've never bred dogs so I can't answer that.

> just 1 more thing - my poodle won't eat the chicken wings i got
> to start them off on. he loves the ground turkeyburger
> w/small amt. raw pureed veggies i give them at night. would it
> be ok to give him raw lamb flap instead of the chicken wings?

He needs to eat bones. Don't cater to his wishes. YOu are
resposible for deciding the menu, not the dog. If he doesn't eat
it, take it up until next meal and offer the same thing again. No
between meal snacks or treats. Repeat until he eats them. The
wings are too small for the other dog. I suggest feeding him
chicken quarters and backs for the first couple of weeks.

Forget the veggies. Dogs are carnivores. No need for plant
material in their diet at all. Meat, bones, and organs is all they
need. My dogs haven't had veggies in over 5 years.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------