Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 13, 2007

Friday, July 13, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11803

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Recommendations for cleaning tooth crevasses
From: kaebruney

2a. Re: Fish Question....
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Dehydrated Liver
From: tgberman
3b. ADMIN/Re: Dehydrated Liver
From: costrowski75

4.1. Re: new to raw feeding
From: Lyse Garant
4.2. Re: new to raw feeding
From: Sandee Lee
4.3. Re: new to raw feeding
From: sillypoodle2003
4.4. Re: new to raw feeding
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
From: kevinvictorbutton

6a. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: monell2000

7a. Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: Laurie Swanson
7b. Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Cow heads?
From: Maria

9. Food Suggestions - Antibiotics
From: meg_helmes

10a. Re: Medication Questions
From: Denise Strother

11.1. new to group
From: Jim Morgan
11.2. Re: new to group
From: kaseyfrankie

12.1. New to Raw Feeding
From: Cherie Ferebee
12.2. Re: New to Raw Feeding
From: carnesbill

13a. feeding raw while traveling
From: Lisa R
13b. Re: feeding raw while traveling
From: carnesbill
13c. Re: feeding raw while traveling
From: merril Woolf
13d. Re: feeding raw while traveling
From: Nathalie Poulin

14. skin and coat
From: rocketblasther

15. 3rd update and hopefully the last one!
From: tottime47

Messages
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1a. Re: Recommendations for cleaning tooth crevasses
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

I just want to know who his tailor is.

What a snazzy top coat, hat and scarf. That boy dresses better than me!

Kae

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cypressbunny" <cypressbunny@...>
wrote:

>
> *** Thank you. He is Saluki--guess it's hard to tell with all his
> clothes on, lol.
>
> --Carrie
>

Messages in this topic (24)
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2a. Re: Fish Question....
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:10 pm ((PDT))

No cleaning needed on fishes. I would cut the barbs off of catfish if
my pups or cats ate it, but they won't.

If you can find it for a reasonable amount, salmon is almost always
welcomed with open arms. Raw sardines are a pretty good starter fish
because they are generally cheap, tasty and small. When you start
feeding fish you should give small amounts at first, because the
unusual texture and whatnot often causes a return to sender reflex if
they eat too much.

Don't buy too much of any new fish until you know if they like it or
not. Usually the more oily fish are received better at my house, FWIW.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>
> Do they need to be cleaned? i.e scales removed?
>
> Also... what's a good fish to start with? When I tried to feed a small
> whole butterfish, my dog fasted for two days.

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Dehydrated Liver
Posted by: "tgberman" me@toddberman.com tgberman
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:52 pm ((PDT))

>
> I just got my dehydrator delivered yesterday. I'm going to try liver
> this weekend. About how long did you have to dry it for? I have one of
> those mandolin slicers so I was going to try slicing it while still
> frozen to make it really thin.
> Michele
>

I think it depends on the dehydrator, so you will have to experiment a
little. I did it at the highest temp setting on my machine (I think
it is either 155 or 165). The first time I did this, everything was
really thin and it was done in about 3 or 4 hours. The second time, I
was expecting the same results, but I cut some too thick... these were
not ready in the 4 hours, so I turned the heat down a little and let
them go all night... I am not sure how well that worked, because like
I set, some are still soft in the middle...

Still wondering if anyone has answers to me first questions!

Thanks,

Todd (and Phred)
http://www.phredthedog.com

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. ADMIN/Re: Dehydrated Liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:50 pm ((PDT))

Recipes, cooking instuctions, techniques, hints, etc. are not
appropriate for the rawfeeding list. Please take all "how to"
conversations to RawChat. Further postings here will be deleted.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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4.1. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:15 pm ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: this post trimmed for you ***

perfect answer, I appreciate it, thank you Merril, appropriately last named Woolf!
Lyse

merril Woolf <merril@kentfieldwhippets.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com,
> Lyse

Messages in this topic (41)
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4.2. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:27 pm ((PDT))

Genevieve,

I think you would derive much benefit from reading through the rawfeeding
myths. The dog's system has not changed, there is no benefit and great harm
from feeding inappropriate foods such as grains. The benefits of feeding a
raw diet far outweigh any possible risks.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Genevieve" <gene182000@yahoo.com>

Then I guess the question is: How much data do we have regarding dogs
being fed raw food?
I believe that all questions should be asked, then there it goes:
what are the risks of feeding exclusively raw food ?

Messages in this topic (41)
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4.3. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "sillypoodle2003" angels_mom73@hotmail.com sillypoodle2003
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

---welcome, genevieve and your furkid too. you are right to question-
question everything. the way i made the swithc was i asked myself this
question: if i were a dog, where would i hunt? in a field of grain,
which is the main part of kibble, or would i seek out rabbits and
other small mammals as prey? if i were a dog, and i was let loose in a
grocery store, where wuld i go? to the dog food aisle or the meat
couter? also, question all those poisons-vaccines, flea treatment ect.
there are lots of lists on yahoo to point you in the right direction.
start with au natural k9 and jstsayno2vaccs. if you're going to feed
your dog appropriately, might as well go all out and say goodbye to
all things nasty. good luck. the people on this list and others are
very helpful in our NR (natural rearing) journey.

kely and "look mom, i ate the whooooollle thing!" zeke

Messages in this topic (41)
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4.4. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:45 pm ((PDT))

"Genevieve" <gene182000@...> wrote:
But aren't we forgetting
> that dogs have lived with humans for so long that they may have
> adapted to home cooked food???
*****
But aren't you in turn forgetting that the time the two species have
spent together is but a zit on a gnat's ass in the bigger picture of
evolution? We may have bludgeoned the appearance of wolves but we
have done little else. And virtually nothing to their digestive
system.

> Well, if we want to be realistic, wild dogs do not get cooked food,
> but they do not get frozen food either... we may as well believe
that
> food that has been frozen may have changed some of its
> characteristics in a way that can affect the dog?
*****
It might. This is not a big issue however. Some people feed frozen
food, others do not. Since it is not inconceivable that wolves would
eat frozen stash, it's not all that far fetched to freeze food.
Really, to freeze or not to freeze is not the question.

> My question is, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, before the pet food
industry
> controlled so much of our doings regarding our pets, how where dogs
> doing, and what were they eating for the most?
*****
Actually it's more like 60+ years, and my guess is more dogs were
dying unhearlded than are today but there was less dogs, that dogs
were less likely to go to the vet and thus were less likely to be
diagnosed the way they are today. My guess is less were HBC because
there were fewer cars and there was more room. My guess is people
fed themselves better so the scraps the dogs got fed the dogs
better. My guess is dogs were not getting vaccinated to death. My
guess is they were better socialized than they are today. My guess
is the healthy dogs lived to ripe old ages and weak dogs died.

>But, were the dogs eating raw food then?
*****
They were more likely to not eat grains except as plate lickin's.
They were more likely to get carcasses and trim because there was no
fast food and there was little packaged food and most of whatever was
made in the kitchen came from scratch. Scratch means scraps. The
argument, I think, is less what they WERE eating and more what they
WERE NOT eating.

> Now, does that mean that my dog should only get raw food?
*****
It means that you dog certainly can do with only raw food. It means
you don't have to feed anything more than raw food.

> I know that whole grains are recommended for people with diabetis
and
> actually recommended for everybody.
*****
Whole grains, perhaps, are recommended instead of fractionated
grains; grains are not necessarily recommended for diabetics and
whether they're recommended for everyone would depend, don't you
think, on what government office financed by what lobby group is
doing the recommending.

And besides all that speculative stuff, carbohydrates have no
nutritional value for our dogs. Not peripherally, not directly, not
raw, not cooked, not whole, not parts. So regardless of how one
reconciles grains in one's personal life, there is no reconciling
them in a dog's life.

Could that mean that the same
> could be true for dogs? Could it be that cooked whole rice would be
a
> safe alternative of course together with some kind of proteins.
*****
Nope. Dogs require protein and fat. They require MEAT protein and
MEAT fat. No grain with any sort of protein will be more healthy
than a species appropriate diet of meat protein and fat. You can try
jamming that shoe onto that foot, but it just don't fit.

Dogs
> have been given pasta and rice for so long before the pet food
> industry.
*****
Again, you are comparing a blip on the screen to the whole
evolutionary sky. There is no comparison. How long have dogs been
eating rice and pasta? Do you know?

Is there
> any kind of comparison between dogs being fed raw food and dogs
with
> home cooked food?
*****
Don't know. And in a fit of infantile stubborness, don't care.

> Then I guess the question is: How much data do we have regarding
dogs
> being fed raw food?
*****
Let's see...how long have wolves be living, how long has the species
been thriving? That kind of data works for me.

> I believe that all questions should be asked, then there it goes:
> what are the risks of feeding exclusively raw food ?
*****
What are the risks of waking up in the morning, or going to bed at
night? Crossing the street? Driving you car to work? Taking an
elevator to the top floor of a skyscraper? Driving through the
Lincoln Tunnel? What are risks of anything? For every upside there
is a downside.

How about you define your specific concerns so that we can sensibly
address them?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (41)
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5a. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
Posted by: "kevinvictorbutton" kevinvictorbutton@yahoo.co.uk kevinvictorbutton
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michael Moore <m-tak@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, Linda, I'll share my GSD experiences with you, but first,
relax and breathe deeply. It's much less complicated than you are
making it. Honest.
>
> >>1)how do i get going, cold turkey, or gradually, if so how?<<
>
> Cold turkey!! Or beef. Or chicken. Just stopping feeding
kibble and start feeding raw.
>
> >>2) does anyone have experience of EPI?<<
>
> Yes!! Lots of folks on the list feed EPI dogs. My rescue GSD,
Holly, included.
>
> >>3) can anyone recommend a good book to read, if i go down this
route i want to make sure she has all the right vitamins, trace
elements etc.<<
>
> Yes, Dr. Tom Lonsdale's "Work Wonders" which you can download
free on his website www.rawmeatybones.com for free.
> And here's where I believe you are overthinking this (as
many of us do initially). Think about this: for thousands of
years, dogs were fed what nature intended -- raw meat with bones,
and some organs (offal). The species thrived. It's only since the
advent of kibble (1930's) that many problems and diseases came into
being. If you feed a species appropriate raw diet (and yes, we know
that prey model *is* the most species appropriate), you will not
need to concern yourself with vitamins, trace elements, etc. --
it's all provided for you by Mother Nature.
>
> >>4)what is the best thing to get started on?<<
>
> The best thing is whatever you can find/have on hand/can
afford. Many folks start with chicken because it's inexpensive and
readily available most places. But some start with venison or pork
or beef. It does seem best to stick with one meat for a week or two
so the dog can adjust. I kept my GSD on chicken exclusively for a
month, as her digestive system was really out of whack, but now she
can eat almost anything without issue. She's been rawfed for 6
yrs., and is healthy and happy.
> Good luck with your journey, and please know that it is the
*best* thing you can do for your GSD!!
>
> -- Anne Moore, who's lived with GSDs for over 30 yrs.,
in NW Ohio
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks for your reply anne.
I've taken the plunge, and have started my gsd on chicken legs
tonight. she's eaten one, and is halfway through the other. lots of
crunching! i also gave her raw pancreas, as this is recommended for
the suspected EPI. I have to take her back to the vet for a check in
a couple of weeks time.
does the raw food help with EPI? do you have to give Holly anything
for it?
my vet told me he has 2 7month old dobermans who always had
diarrhoea, but when he took them to the wilds of Yorkshire (I'm in
the UK) they did lots of scavenging, and never had the runs. I'll
tell him about raw feeding!
Juno has now finished her chicken, lots of licking lips, she seemed
to enjoy it.
Will let you know how she gets on. Thanks again, Linda

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "monell2000" monell2000@yahoo.com monell2000
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

Neither one of mine will eat liver if it is thawed out. But little
pieces of frozen they love. Might give it a try.

monell

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the suggestions everyone!!!
>
> Last night after much struggle they ate the liver that was left
from
> their meal.
>
> It seems they are better with beef liver than pork or chicken. They
> NEVER eat the pork liver!!
>
> I'm also going to try the ground meat / liver slop. Great idea!!
>
>
> Thanks everybody!
>
> Kae
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@> wrote:
> >
> > Okay, my boys hate liver.
> > I mean HATE it.
>

Messages in this topic (17)
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7a. Re: Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

I don't know, maybe too much bone at once? Did you add meat to the
meal? Maybe she's not used to meals that boney?

Sounds like it could definitely also be that she was expecting to be
fed this morning and didn't get it "on time." You might want to try
randomizing your feeding schedule. That worked for me/my dog and
seems to work for lots of others.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> This morning, I woke up 1 hour later than usual weekdays and,I
came out from shower and heard wiered noise from my dog's crate area.
So,I looked inside and she made noise and vomited yellow bile and
followed by that,only 1 piece of neckbone I fed yesterday came out.
>
> It is probably combination of bit late to be fed and one piece of
bone was too dense maybe??
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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7b. Re: Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

>I don't know, maybe too much bone at once? Did you add meat to the meal?

Hi,Laurie. I gave her lamb tongue too and, the poo came out like firm poo about 1-2 inch and then yellowish brownish watery thing and she ended up needed to hop on to shower to get her butt washed that afternoon.

After trying to introducing the lamb meat,her poo was always having wet ends,not as good one as after other meals.For fattier meat like lamb,wet ends poo is normal if it had shape?

I was not worrying about it because it still had shape still.

But yesterday,it was different. Maybe lamb tongue was too fatty than lamb meat I have fed. So,today,I gave her basic chcken meal and poop got all firm up nice already.Definitely lamb seemed problem to her to handle like she does for chicken or beef etc.

Wiered thing was that,while poo was all nice and firm,the poo came out wrapped in thick and slimy mucous.

How do you interpret this poo?I have seen mucous in watery poo before when she had explosive,uncontrollable diarrhea before changing diet,but never seen poo wrapped in mucous like this before. I will keep her on chicken 2 more days and give her healing time.

>Maybe she's not used to meals that boney?

Well,she has had beef neck and all bone consumed before and her poo was fine and no vomiting and no diarrhea or no soft poo. overall,she did pretty good on beef though.

>Sounds like it could definitely also be that she was expecting to be fed this morning and >didn't get it "on time."

You think so? On weekends, I wake up one more hour laterthan today,and for 9 weeks,she was fine,no vomiting involved. I making rule that she eats after we human eats so,feeding time is bit random although because I wake up before my husband around same time on weekdays,those days,she ended up to be fed around same time though.

thank you

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Re: Cow heads?
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,the cow head comes with brain inside too??
> I read somewhere that if you like to avoid madcow disease,avoid
feeding brain of cows.
> yassy

I have my own beliefs about proin desieses in dogs, I don't think they
are at risk. I'm getting the heads from someone who hand raised the
steers, he is bucthering them himself and he knows why I'm getting
them. So the brains ARE included, proin desieses take many years to
develop and the steers will only be 2 years old when slaughtered.

Maria

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9. Food Suggestions - Antibiotics
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:38 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone-
My pup has a UTI, and is on antibiotics. She unfortunately has been on
them before,and has never had a problem with being nauseous, or
vomited due to antibiotics before. Well, not this time! She has thrown
up every days since starting them. She is also not eating as much -
she was getting fed twice a day, and has been refusing at least one of
those meals for the past week or so. I know she is also feeling
crappy, so that isn't helping. She didn't vomit last night after
eating a full dinner. I decided not to feed her breakfast this
morning, just a little meatball with her cranberry & fish oil and her
antibiotic (she takes it twice a day). Well, she threw up multiple
times. At least one of them was on the kitchen tile, which I
appreciated (the rest was on her bed, the couch, etc.)

I think that the nausea/vomiting may be linked to her just getting the
small meatball instead of a full meal - perhaps her stomach bile is
getting flowing, and there isn't enough food to make it happy? I know
that description is highly unscientific, but I think you guys know
what I mean.

To relate this to raw feeding - what would be good, mild meals to help
her stomach feel better? I don't really want to fast her, which is
what I would normally do for a day after the vomiting, because she
still needs to take the antibiotic twice a day, and I think it will
upset her stomach even more without food. I just gave her a boneless,
skinless chicken breast which she happily ate. Does that sound like a
good meal option for a day or two? How about ground turkey? I'm trying
to go with what is in the freezer, but if you all have other
suggestions, I would love to hear them!!

Thanks,

Meg (& Ruby)

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Medication Questions
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi Susan,
I have two Chihuahuas. Sweetie is 8yrs old and weighs 5 to 5 1/2 lbs.
DorkDog is about 1yr old and weighs 3 to 3 1/2 lbs. They eat the same
things my 42 lb Pitbull eats. My dogs eat usually once a day. I have
had Chi's for years and there isn't a problem with blood sugar on
raw, at least in my experience. The carbohydrates in commercial food
is resposible for the dramatic fluncuations. As far as the momma
Chi's weight gain, that may or may not be due to the spay. Sweetie is
not spayed and she is definately a chunky monkey, but I have less of
a problem with her weight on raw. I have not had allergy or ear
infection problems with my Chi's, but I run a dog daycare and the
owner of the daycare and clients have these types of issues and the
raw diet has helped several of these dogs. A Bichon at the daycare
had chronic ear infections. This dog was at the vet every couple of
months with one. The owner dealt with this for a couple of years. I
convinced her to try raw feeding and she's been doing it for a year
now and the dog has not had another ear infection. The owner of the
daycare has 2 Scotties with allergies. They were on hypo-allergenic
food and antigen shots. Now on raw, they are not taking the shots. If
I remember correctly she just stopped the shots at the same time she
started raw. The prednisolone can cause some weight gain also.
Hopefully someone with experience with these problems can give you
more detail with this. I'm sure you will be amazed at what a
difference the rawfeeding makes in your dogs. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brake4breyers832"
<pebbles_diehl@...> wrote:
Hello everyone, I just joined recently and am thoroughly enjoying
reading all the posts and info about this wonderful way of
feeding....
>Susan D.

Messages in this topic (3)
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11.1. new to group
Posted by: "Jim Morgan" kingbird@cableone.net fundador_four
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone, my name is Jim Morgan and I am new to the group as well as new to raw feeding.

My wife and I have four young house cats and one 16 year old small female spaniel.

The dog loves raw chicken, beef, and about any canned dog food. In othrerwords she eats like a little pig and is not over weight. Her dietary background has been high quality dry and canned dog food which she has done very well on and at 16+ she still likes to playfully chase our cats around the house. We think of it as good exercise for both her and the cats.

For about 2 weeks now I have been giving her raw chicken with a few short bones which she crunches up very well. And a little dry and caned dog food.

The two older cats eat raw chicken very well along with a little high quality dry food and an occasional treat of that stinky canned cat food which they love.

The other 2 cats just turned three years old and were raised by hand by my wife and me from the age of one week , eyes closed and nursing from a bottle. They also had two siblings that we successfully raised. A labor of love but what a job!

Any way the two we kept are addicted to dry and canned cat food and are a bit over weight. I am trying to get them to eat raw chicken. Skinless, boneless chicken breast work fairly well. Once I get them use to the chicken breasts I will work on some chicken with bones.

Any way just wanted to pass this along and say how much I am enjoying the comments from others in the group.

My best to all,

Jim Morgan
Prescott Arizona

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11.2. Re: new to group
Posted by: "kaseyfrankie" Julian1013@aol.com kaseyfrankie
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jim, I also have four house cats, the oldest being 2 years of age.
I will say that even being fed proper amounts of commercial food, she
is overweight and has digestive issues. I am in the transition to get
them eating raw, and she will be the hardest to turn. My goal is to
soon have them all on raw and raw only, as it is the best possible
thing I can do for them as their owner..and I absolutly dread buying
the canned catfood but they are a bit more stubborn than dogs and you
cannot starve them into eating raw. As far as your dog goes if she is
liking her chicken and bones now would be a great time to cut out the
other stuff, no point in eating a veggie salad if you have a big mac
right after it right?! LOL anyway, best of luck to you and welcome to
the group!
-Kasey S

Messages in this topic (48)
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12.1. New to Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Cherie Ferebee" oceanbaylabradors@yahoo.com oceanbaylabradors
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

Hello Everyone,
I am new to raw feeding and am trying to get as much info as possible. I guess my first couple of questions should come now. I have 5 labradors, 1 english fox hound, and 1 tiny shih tzu (A wonderful mini lab). I know it depends on the size, but how do I figure it out? My gang gets fed twice daily. We have not yet made the jump to raw yet. Do I switch like other foods and do so gradually or just get right into it? What are some good inexpensive meats? My father hunts in the fall, is it okay to give them raw water foul, deer, etc?

Thanks!
Cherie

Weights:
Sandi (10 yrs old)- 90 lbs (Lab)- needs to lose a little weight
Lilly (4-5 yrs old)- 61 lbs (E. Fox hound)
Katie (3 yrs old)- 72 lbs (lab)- needs to gain a little weight (Still gaining weight from her last litter)
Journey (3 yrs old)- 65 lbs (lab)- very very active and needs to put on weight
Sadie (2 yrs old)- 7 pounds (shih tzu)- very active and has maintained 6-7 pounds since she was 7 months old, but seems skinny to me (i can feel her spine, but she dosn't like dog food)
Clay (1 yr old)- 78 pounds (lab)
Lukas ( 6.5 months old)- 74 pounds (lab)- training as a service dog. Kept lean to protect his hips from too much weight.

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Messages in this topic (47)
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12.2. Re: New to Raw Feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cherie Ferebee
<oceanbaylabradors@...> wrote:
>
> I am new to raw feeding and am trying to get as much info
> as possible.

Cherie,
Check out my web page at http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

for my suggestions on how to begin raw feeding.

Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it
at http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF
format for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (47)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. feeding raw while traveling
Posted by: "Lisa R" mljnxr@yahoo.com mljnxr
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

Just a question,

We are getting our new russell terrier puppy Gertrude at the end of this month. We are considering feeding her raw for her health. However, we travel at least once or twice a year and are gone for a week or two and she will be going with. How do you feed raw while traveling? Has anyone else had to deal with this situation and how did it work out?

Thanks,

Lisa - NC

____________________________________________________________________________________
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that gives answers, not web links.

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: feeding raw while traveling
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lisa R <mljnxr@...> wrote:
>
> How do you feed raw while traveling?

Pack the dog's meals into zip lock bags. One meal to a bag. Keep
them iced down in a cooler. Assuming that you are going places that
have grocery stores, you can buy other stuff for the dog once you get
there.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

13c. Re: feeding raw while traveling
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lisa R <mljnxr@...> wrote:
>
> Just a question,
>
> We are getting our new russell terrier puppy Gertrude at the end of this month. We are
considering feeding her raw for her health. However, we travel at least once or twice a
year and are gone for a week or two and she will be going with. How do you feed raw
while traveling? Has anyone else had to deal with this situation and how did it work out?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lisa - NC

I travel almost every weekend with my whole pack. Usually from Friday to Monday.
We also travel out to national events every year with the entire pack and are gone for 2
weeks usually at a time.

We travel with two ice chests - one for the dogs and one for us.
The dog ice chest is filled with frozen food and then covered over with ice. We don't open
the ice chest except for once per day to feed the dogs.
Depending on how much food and how many dogs you are traveling with, a full ice chest
can last you about 5 days. For only one dog, it could last you much longer. It takes
about 4 or 5 days for the food to thaw out if covered with ice and kept closed.
Once the food thaws out, it can last several more days as long as you keep it topped up
with ice and don't open it.

In your case, with one dog, you can assume any food you keep in it will last a week if
placed in the ice chest frozen and topped with ice. Once thawed, it will keep a further few
days.
If you need to refill your ice chest with food, the supermarket is your friend. We usually
seek out super walmarts because we know they'll have meats we can use for our dog at a
fairly good price. We also look for bargins at regular supermarkets. We've never run out
of food yet and we do this every weekend just about. :-))

Merril

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

13d. Re: feeding raw while traveling
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

Do they have grocery stores where you will be
travelling? Can you find the local butcher shops?

Nathalie

--- Lisa R <mljnxr@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Just a question,
>
> We are getting our new russell terrier puppy
> Gertrude at the end of this month. We are
> considering feeding her raw for her health.
> However, we travel at least once or twice a year and
> are gone for a week or two and she will be going
> with. How do you feed raw while traveling? Has
> anyone else had to deal with this situation and how
> did it work out?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lisa - NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
> that gives answers, not web links.
>
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. skin and coat
Posted by: "rocketblasther" jforbes05@sbcglobal.net rocketblasther
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

Is there another food source for a healthier skin and coat other than
fish and fish oil. Is fat good for skin and coat, and if so, is it
like liver in terms of causing runny stool?

Thanks,
Jim & Sarah

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15. 3rd update and hopefully the last one!
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for your comments, Chris O!

Everybody Thanks!

I don't think I would have called the vet without them, just worried.

I have such a good Vet, so I hate bothering him
constantly......He's the most patient man I know.......
Good with animals too.....

Took Charkee in at 3pm today and we'd all forgot that I'd ask doc to
go ahead and
take off the last small cyst on his shoulder........turns out it was
tiny on the skin but
big underneath and burrowed deep......He said that was probably what
the crying was about as it may have started hurting him and said I
should have called........even late..........

What a vet! .Anyhow it's draining into his front chest area and he
got a lump about the size of a silver dollar, it doesn't seem to be
bothering him now, but I was worried it would swell up his throat.
Doc said it was just under the skin and wouldn't do that..........

Checked his tooth and it's fine, has a clot there.........looked
good............

Now hopefully a few more days of this and all will be good
again.......

I have a couple of questions and going to ask them later over on raw
chat......
so maybe you can all share some more of your wisdom there?

He's home, he's eating and fairly alert........so I'm going to go to
bed early lol, being up all
night with the baby has got me beat.........

Carol, Charkee & Maggie

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11802

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: Yasuko herron
1b. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: metra_co
1c. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: chele519
1d. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
1e. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: kaebruney
1f. Getting the prize for liver, lol.........
From: tottime47

2a. Garbage Hounds...
From: Tammy Chamberlain
2b. Re: Garbage Hounds...
From: Carol Santangelo
2c. Re: Garbage Hounds...
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Emu neck, backs, legs - anyone fed them?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
From: creativevazquez
4c. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
From: creativevazquez

5. For Mothers with Toddlers
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Cow heads?
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
From: ginny wilken
7b. Re: Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
From: tottime47

8a. Re: filler food
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: Dehydrated Liver
From: chele519

10.1. new to raw feeding
From: Genevieve
10.2. Re: new to raw feeding
From: Lyse Garant
10.3. Re: new to raw feeding
From: merril Woolf
10.4. Re: new to raw feeding
From: Andrea

11a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
From: Yasuko herron

12. Fish Question....
From: kaebruney

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

>I've trtied baking it with garlic, frying it a little.. even mixing it with egg and rice and still no >go.

HI.My dog usually go for organ part or guizzard or whatever not real meat one first for meal but then,one day,she decided to protest not to eat beef liver she used to eat with no prob.

So,what I did was beaten egg lightely and pour 1teaspoon of raw honey with 1/2teaspoon of apple cidar vinegar and pour over whatever dog prostesting not to eat in the dog bowl.She ate with gusto.

So, those are when my dog protested,I do that.

I hear most dog likes apple cidar vinegar.

Hope it healps.

yassy

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

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Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

The ONLY way Rusty will eat any kind of liver (besides dehydrated
treats) is chopped into small bits and mixed with ground tripe. Mmmm,
stinky tripe makes everything yummy!

Metra

> Oka, my boys hat eliver.
> I mean HATE it.
>
> I've trtied baking it with garlic, frying it a little.. even mixing it
> with egg and rice and still no go.
>
> When I feed it as is, they will eat all their other food first and
> leave me little liver strips on the food mats.
>

> HELP!...
>
> Kae
>

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

Mine did not like it raw at first so I fed it frozen and they loved
it. Gradually I have given it so it is partially frozen and then
thawed and now they are fine. I think for them it was the texture. Try
it frozen and see if that makes a difference.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> Question - if a dog is on a raw diet, and doing well, but does not
> like liver, any kind --- even though its good for them, but they HATE
> IT, should we make them eat it? This must sound stupid... but ... do
> wild dogs always eat liver, do they hate it too?
> thanks,
> geraldine

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:00 am ((PDT))

I gave my picky prissypants Toy Poodle some raw liver, mixed in with
that XKALIBER she received as a gift. She picked out the liver and lined
it up neatly on the edge of the plate. I left the plate on the floor,
and when she get home that night she ate up all the liver. I fell down
in a dead faint on the floor.

That is the first and only time she has EVER eaten liver that wasn't
freeze-dried. I can only conclude that it had taken on some of the scent
(quite strong) of the XKALIBER. Next I plan to try mixing raw liver in
with some tripe. I have this suspicion that Little Miss Prim is going to
adore tripe. I think that's what she loves most about the XKALIBER.

So: after four years of trying, Pookie finally ate some raw liver. I
think I deserve a prize for Particularly Persistent Liver-Pushing Pet
Parent.

Carolyn J. Garnaas

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Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!!!

Last night after much struggle they ate the liver that was left from
their meal.

It seems they are better with beef liver than pork or chicken. They
NEVER eat the pork liver!!

I'm also going to try the ground meat / liver slop. Great idea!!

Thanks everybody!

Kae

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, my boys hate liver.
> I mean HATE it.

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Getting the prize for liver, lol.........
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:17 am ((PDT))

Your stories are so cute, lol.....I'd love to meet Miss Priss........

If you ever get your hands on some rabbit livers, bet she'll like
those.........

My boy is not into chicken liver.......but rabbit anything he'll
eat............

First time I offer him some rabbit offal, he took one sniff and dug
in........about
half way through, he looks up and I swear he had a tiny pair of lungs
hanging
from his mouth........I know.......gross........but he does love
those rabbits..........

Carol, Charkee & Maggie

> So: after four years of trying, Pookie finally ate some raw liver. I
> think I deserve a prize for Particularly Persistent Liver-Pushing
Pet
> Parent.
>
> Carolyn J. Garnaas

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Garbage Hounds...
Posted by: "Tammy Chamberlain" tamgarboxers@telus.net sugerray50
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

I'm sure that in my last post, I mentioned that we're building and
living (family of 4 with 2 dogs) in a 28' travel trailer.

Well - we've been rawfeeding for 6 years now - and are completely
comfortable with the whole process...and even planned our build around
it (have a freezer right outside our front door filled with dog food).

We've never had an issue with our Sugar Ray being a counter surfer or
garbage hound...but then we got Cara. This girl has tried my patience
on numerous occasions. She has been both a counter surfer and a
garbage hound. We thought we'd broken her of it...but found out
yesterday she's just been lying in wait.

We'd had a heat wave here for a few days..and on one, I decided to buy
one of those rotisserie chickens from the grocery store. Now,
normally I'm very good at putting the garbage can up on the stove
while we're gone (to discourage any foraging). But yesterday I forgot.

I came home to my garbage strewn across the trailer...coffee
grounds...lettuce....and yes, the container that had been full of
chicken bones left over from the rotisserie chicken. All that was
left of that carcass was a wishbone and a wing bone that she'd missed.

Has anyone else had their dogs eat a cooked chicken carcass? She's
not showing signs of distress or discomfort (she was just really
thirsty when we came home yesterday....gee....I wonder why after all
that salt and grease???). Guess I won't be forgetting to put the
garbage container up again!

Tammy Chamberlain
TamGar Boxers Reg'd
Shawnigan Lake, BC

http://www.tamgarboxers.com
HOLTER RENTAL AVAILABLE

Dedicated breeders - raising happy, healthy, loving Boxers of Quality

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Garbage Hounds...
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

I had a similar thing happen to me just before I switched to raw. I always
crate my Bullmastiff puppy (he was 5 months then, now he's almost 7 months)
when I leave the house...just in case. Well, this one time I thought I'm
only going to be gone for 10 minutes so I'll leave him out. Came home to
find out that he ate 7 drumstick bones off a plate that was left on the
counter by the sink. I freaked out right away. Anyway, I then did some
research and read that you can give the dog some bread to soften the stomach
in hopes that the bones don't tear anything. Also, keep an eye on how the
dog is behaving (lethargic, won't eat, in distress). If you notice unusual
behavior definitely go to the vet. And, keep a watch on the poops for a few
days and make sure there is no blood. I, luckily, had no problems. I did
see some of the bone come out in his poop undigested...but other than that
he was fine. Keep us posted. I hope you have a similar experience.

Carol (Bruno and Zoe's mom)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Garbage Hounds...
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

<sigh> I remember a similar situation when I was visiting my
parents. I walked into their kitchen to see the trash can knocked
over and an empty fried chicken bucket on the floor. Geiger was the
only dog inside, so I knew it had been him. I watched him with bated
breath for the next several days, expecting him to keel over any
minute. I fed him liver and stool loosening foods, just in case it
helped. He passed the bones just fine, well, with some discomfort,
but no problems. Since then I make sure I take out the trash at my
parent's house when I get there. Keep an eye on Cara and watch for
anything that makes you think she's in distress. Geiger showed no
signs of indigestion at all, just went along with his day. Hope
everything turns out ok.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Chamberlain"
<tamgarboxers@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone else had their dogs eat a cooked chicken carcass? She's
> not showing signs of distress or discomfort (she was just really
> thirsty when we came home yesterday....gee....I wonder why after all
> that salt and grease

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Emu neck, backs, legs - anyone fed them?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:56 am ((PDT))

Lori C <labcope@...> wrote:
> Has anyone fed Emu necks, backs or legs? I am wondering how much
meat is on the meaty backs and necks. Also,
*****
All those parts are potentially brilliant but too often they are
heartbreakers (though fortunately they are not considered
toothbreakers). An untrimmed (or minimally trimmed), uncut,
unsliced neck is fabulous, but finding one like that is becoming more
unlikely. Legs--especially whole legs and not trimmed out drums--are
fine engrossing meals for retrievers and even the tidied up legs
aren't bad but as more meat eaters become familiar with emu, meaty
legs are also increasingly rare.

I've never had access to backs but I imagine them to be pretty darn
big (which is fine) and pretty darn meatless (which is not fine).

I suggest you talk to the supplier about the meat content of these
parts. Ask for specifics--if you ask if they're meaty most will say
sure you bet even if the bones are bare naked. Definitely edible
though, meat or no meat. If you can talk to previous purchasers,
that mioght help you get an accurate description.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

"creativevazquez" <creativevazquez@...> wrote:
>
> I would like anyone out there who is from New Jersey to share where
> they get there meats resonably priced. I live about an hour west of
ny
> and 30 minutes east of pennsylvania.
*****
People who live in New Jersey will be able to help more if you just
identify the town/area you live. Knowing that you are willing to shop
an hour or so in a given direction is good but specifics count.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
Posted by: "creativevazquez" creativevazquez@yahoo.com creativevazquez
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:47 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "creativevazquez" <creativevazquez@> wrote:
> >
> > I would like anyone out there who is from New Jersey to share where
> > they get there meats resonably priced. I live about an hour west
of
> ny
> > and 30 minutes east of pennsylvania.
> *****
> People who live in New Jersey will be able to help more if you just
> identify the town/area you live. Knowing that you are willing to
shop
> an hour or so in a given direction is good but specifics count.
> Chris O
>
Thanks for the tip. I live in Hackettstown, NJ will be willing to
travel an hour at tops.
Gloria

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
Posted by: "creativevazquez" creativevazquez@yahoo.com creativevazquez
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "creativevazquez"
<creativevazquez@...> wrote:
>
> I would like anyone out there who is from New Jersey to share where
> they get there meats resonably priced. I live about an hour west
of ny
> and 30 minutes east of pennsylvania. I would like to find good
sources
> of chicken,rabbit (which is very expensive at supermarket)beef,
venison
> or any other meats. Greentripe if I wanted to feed would probably
have
> to get it online. Any suggestions would help? I have two young
lab
> poodle mix that are 7 months and around 45lbs and always hungry.
They
> easilly eat a half chicken and look around for more so I need some
> money saving tips and sources. Here in the northeast everything is
> very expensive. We've been feeding raw mostly chicken for about a
> month. So far dogs ok one reallys needs to gain a little.
> Gloria
> Labradoodle babies
>P.s. I live in Hackettstown, nj

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5. For Mothers with Toddlers
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:03 am ((PDT))

Hey!
For the mothers with toddlers what are worried about bacteria from raw
fed dogs. Check this out.

http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/c/a/carnes/thekiss.jpeg

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Cow heads?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,the cow head comes with brain inside too??
>
> I read somewhere that if you like to avoid madcow disease,avoid
feeding brain of cows.
>
> Are they safe enough?
*****
There is no indication that dogs are susceptible to mad cow diesease.
You might want to avoid eating a cow brain though. Or not. Hard to
know precisely what the situation is right now, in the US.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

On Jul 13, 2007, at 6:57 AM, tottime47 wrote:

> Sorry, last post just went through without signature.
>
> So........now we know what you're really feeding that boy, lol
>
> Carol & Charkee

Baby spinach, actually, liberally coated with olive oil and kefir,
along with Bleu cheese crumbles, almonds, smoked salmon, egg, and
whatever else of it he wants - handed to him on chopsticks:) He
doesn't want celery or cucumber. We do not eat lettuce much, except
for the baby stuff I grow, and no tomatoes, etc. He gets a handful of
supplements for arthritis and a heart murmur, plus thyroid, so I
always have to have something he perceives as a treat to put them in.
His "real" dinner was liver and chicken feet last night.

He's old enough that I can spoil him rotten and not worry, and he
treats me pretty well, too.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT))

Gosh that dinner sounds great.........I need to stop by at dinner
time, lol...

I haven't gotten mine to eat a single veggie since he started raw.
I've offered but he turns up his nose, even at
them as treats..............

I just knew underneath that exterior you were an old softy, lol...

Makes me feel better to admit I'm one myself when it comes to my
dogs........

Oh, did I mention that I just took in a reject. Poor little thing
been dumped twice and she's only a yr & half old!

Dumped for barking and potty training, etc...... What in the heck
do people think dogs do?

Started her right on raw and she's lovin' it too.....No problems so
far.........

Now if I can just get my guy over his tooth problem and back eating,
we'll be set!

Carol & Charkee & Maggie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:

> He's old enough that I can spoil him rotten and not worry, and he
> treats me pretty well, too.
>
>
> ginny and Tomo

Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: filler food
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

"For example it's summer and very hot my dogs don't want to do for long
walks (me neither) so I am cutting back on their food"

Ditto here - I'll give them their meals frozen and just feed less. No
filler foods. I found out the same on the beef bones/fat - they all put on
a couple lbs - so I just feed less and feed frozen. We also go to the river
for a swim in the evening after I get home from work - I need to try to do
that every night.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Dehydrated Liver
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))

I just got my dehydrator delivered yesterday. I'm going to try liver
this weekend. About how long did you have to dry it for? I have one of
those mandolin slicers so I was going to try slicing it while still
frozen to make it really thin.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tgberman" <me@...> wrote:
>
> I recently bought a large amount of beef liver. I dehydrated it and
> feet it to my pooch as treats. I have three questions on this...
>
> Some of the liver i cut up was a little thicker cut, so it is not dry
> and leathery (it is a little soft in the middle)... will this go bad
> if it is kept in the refrigerator? I am pretty sure the fully dry
> ones will last a while.
>
> Second, does dehydrating take away a lot of the nutrients (like
> cooking). He gets a few of these treats a day and I am wondering if
> giving him the treats, plus adding some liver to his meals is too
> much? Should I count the dried liver as organ meat, or is it really
> just "bonus"?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Todd (and Phred)
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

10.1. new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Genevieve" gene182000@yahoo.com gene182000
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))

I have been a member of this group for 2/3 weeks now and I really
enjoy reading the posts. Thanks to all the people who make this group
so full of information.
We have a 15 months partly golden retriever and labrador beautiful
dog. this is my first dog and I wanted so much to do the best for her
that she went to the vet a few days after we got her. she received
all the vaccines, got treatment against flea, a collar against ticks,
etc...
As most of you in the group, I rapidly began asking myself questions.
mainly about the kibble issue. this sounded to me so unfair, so
strange and so unhealthy, but the vet stopped me by saying that ...
astronautes were eating dry food for months and they were OK. I
replied that Pana was not supposed to be an astronaute but a happy
healthy dog, but still, you know the authority of somebody supposed
to be an expert...
Yet, I kept looking for other solutions. a few weeks ago, after Pana
had a third attack of skin inflamation, an uriniry tract infection,
etc... we took the plunge and tried home cooked food. I switched
this two weeks ago to raw feeding.
This morning she threw her yesterday evening meal, there was a big
piece of bone there that scared me. This evening, she struggled with
1/4 of chicken and finally did some very good teeth work on the
chicken and suddenly she swallowed nearly the whole piece. I am
really concerned about it. So, I cannot help but asking myself
questions.

Please, accept my following comments as true concerns and questions.
I have the feeling that all these issues are treated too emotionaly,
while, for the good of our pets, we should all try to relate to this
in the most curious and "scientific" manner. I do not have time to
look for myself to all the answers, and I am not sure they exit now,
I trust that some of you in this very knowledgable group have already
done thorough research about it.
I do believe, that I never again want to feed our Pana with kibble.
Now the question is what to feed:
raw feeding with no grains or home cook food....
I read carefuly the article about dogs being carnivores. Of course,
in the wild, dogs do not get cooked rice... But aren't we forgetting
that dogs have lived with humans for so long that they may have
adapted to home cooked food???
Well, if we want to be realistic, wild dogs do not get cooked food,
but they do not get frozen food either... we may as well believe that
food that has been frozen may have changed some of its
characteristics in a way that can affect the dog?
My question is, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, before the pet food industry
controlled so much of our doings regarding our pets, how where dogs
doing, and what were they eating for the most?
I never heard of dogs having diabetis when I was a child, or
epilepsis or skin inflamation.... today, these seem to be a high
percentage of our dogs life. But, were the dogs eating raw food then?

Please, believe me, I really want the best for my dog and I am ready
to "work" for getting it.
Now, does that mean that my dog should only get raw food?
I know that whole grains are recommended for people with diabetis and
actually recommended for everybody. Could that mean that the same
could be true for dogs? Could it be that cooked whole rice would be a
safe alternative of course together with some kind of proteins. Dogs
have been given pasta and rice for so long before the pet food
industry. How were they doing then? What was the longevity? Is there
any kind of comparison between dogs being fed raw food and dogs with
home cooked food?
Then I guess the question is: How much data do we have regarding dogs
being fed raw food?
I believe that all questions should be asked, then there it goes:
what are the risks of feeding exclusively raw food ?

I do hope that you will understand my concern and that my questions
will be related to.

thanks again,
Genevieve

Sorry my letter is so long. I am tremendously interested in hearing
your opinion about the above mentioned questions.

Messages in this topic (37)
________________________________________________________________________

10.2. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:42 am ((PDT))

Genevieve, it's so funny that you asked the question about longevity. I was about to ask, has anyone raw fed a dog for its entire life, and if so, how long did it live? Past life expentancy?
Lyse

Genevieve <gene182000@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have been a member of this group for 2/3 weeks now and I really
enjoy reading the posts. Thanks to all the people who make this group
so full of information.
We have a 15 months partly golden retriever and labrador beautiful
dog. this is my first dog and I wanted so much to do the best for her
that she went to the vet a few days after we got her. she received
all the vaccines, got treatment against flea, a collar against ticks,
etc...
As most of you in the group, I rapidly began asking myself questions.
mainly about the kibble issue. this sounded to me so unfair, so
strange and so unhealthy, but the vet stopped me by saying that ...
astronautes were eating dry food for months and they were OK. I
replied that Pana was not supposed to be an astronaute but a happy
healthy dog, but still, you know the authority of somebody supposed
to be an expert...
Yet, I kept looking for other solutions. a few weeks ago, after Pana
had a third attack of skin inflamation, an uriniry tract infection,
etc... we took the plunge and tried home cooked food. I switched
this two weeks ago to raw feeding.
This morning she threw her yesterday evening meal, there was a big
piece of bone there that scared me. This evening, she struggled with
1/4 of chicken and finally did some very good teeth work on the
chicken and suddenly she swallowed nearly the whole piece. I am
really concerned about it. So, I cannot help but asking myself
questions.

I do hope that you will understand my concern and that my questions
will be related to.

thanks again,
Genevieve

Sorry my letter is so long. I am tremendously interested in hearing
your opinion about the above mentioned questions.

Lyse

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (37)
________________________________________________________________________

10.3. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:14 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
> Genevieve, it's so funny that you asked the question about longevity. I was about to ask,
has anyone raw fed a dog for its entire life, and if so, how long did it live? Past life
expentancy?
> Lyse

It's funny, but that question seems to be more a centred in North America than the rest of
the world because, believe it or not, many countries have never jumped on the processed
junk food band wagon quite so much as North America has.
Can you believe I never heard of kibble until I came to the US. It did and still does exist
outside of North America, but to many of us not raised here, kibble does not quite have
the strong hold on consumers that it does here.

If kibble and advertising from kibble companies is all you know, then it stands to reason
that one would think dogs only ever ate processed food. Look at the fast food industry in
north America. Can you believe there are people who don't eat that stuff? Hard to believe
I know, but when the public is saturated with junk food, it becomes the norm when in fact,
in other countries, it is not always that way. Sadly, many people outside the US copy what
is happening in the US. They switch to eating McDonalds and feeding processed junk food
to their dogs because that's what they do in the US. Sad, eh.

To answer your question, my dogs average 16 yrs with the oldest being 17 when she died
to the youngest to die from old age being 15. I fed raw before I came to the US and
other than a few years between the late 80's and early 90's, I have always fed a natural
diet. I got convinced to feed some junk food (along with raw which I just couldn't give
up) during that few years when premium junk food was thought to be the be-all and end-
all. The processed food companies did not convince me of this, other dog people who
were under the spell of processed food convinced me to try it. All their dogs died young-
ish and most of cancer along with the usual horrible rotting teeth and dull coats. I had
littermates to many of these dogs and mine all lived healthy to the end.

I have multiple dogs and none have ever tasted junk food. Table scraps, animals, dairy
goods and other odd stuff - yes, but nothing that ever came from a bag or can or box and
was processed first.

Dogs made it into the 20th century without Purina and if we look out for our own and our
pets health like we should, we and our pets can live to old age without all the junk food
related illnesses. I'm surprised processed food has made it this far into the 21st century.
With smarter consumers, maybe we can send them back to where they came from and
improve our and our pets health along with it.

Merril

Messages in this topic (37)
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10.4. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:18 am ((PDT))

Hi, Genevieve, I'm glad you are working your way towards raw food.
Let's answer some of your questions so you can go in whole hog.

> I read carefuly the article about dogs being carnivores. Of course,
> in the wild, dogs do not get cooked rice... But aren't we
> forgetting that dogs have lived with humans for so long that they
> may have adapted to home cooked food???

There's a misconseption here that being domesticated has changed dogs
into omnivores. Physiologically dogs are carnivores, period. They
are classified as a sub species of wolf, they are meant to eat meat.

*Can* dogs survive if they eat grains and veggies? I suppose so, but
that doesn't mean they should. We tend to humanize our dogs and cats
and think they should eat what we eat.

> food that has been frozen may have changed some of its
> characteristics in a way that can affect the dog?

Freezing food does not change food in the way cooking does. High
temperature denatures proteins and destroys enzymes. Frozen raw meat
can be defrosted and go back to normal. There is no way to "uncook"
meat.

> My question is, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, before the pet food
> industry controlled so much of our doings regarding our pets, how
> where dogs doing, and what were they eating for the most?
> I never heard of dogs having diabetis when I was a child, or
> epilepsis or skin inflamation.... today, these seem to be a high
> percentage of our dogs life. But, were the dogs eating raw food
> then?

I think you answered your own question there. Diabetes, allergies,
rotten teeth and gingivitis, all are more prevelant now than they
were 50 years ago. Back then dogs may not have been eating all raw,
but they were likely eating table scraps along with meat and bones.
For more information on this, you should read "Raw Meaty Bones
Promote Health" by Tom Lonsdale.

> I know that whole grains are recommended for people with diabetis
> and actually recommended for everybody. Could that mean that the
> same could be true for dogs?

No, dogs are not humans. The biology of humans and canines are
different. By the same rationale, I can deduce that a pet rabbit
should eat steak because I do, or I should give it a bit of red wine
every day because they say it is good for me.

> Dogs have been given pasta and rice for so long before the pet food
> industry. How were they doing then? What was the longevity?

This is not about what dogs *can* be fed. It is about looking at
what is *best* for your dog on a biological level and doing it.
People were eating hamburgers a long time before McDonald's came out
too. Though we didn't have a greater lifespan before fast food, we
were certainly more healthy.

> Then I guess the question is: How much data do we have regarding
> dogs being fed raw food?

Scientific research requires funding, and since the livestock
lobbyists haven't realized how much money they could make if everyone
switched to raw feeding, there isn't anyone to fund the research.
There have been some books written on the subject, I suggested Tom
Lonsdale, his first book (Raw Meaty Bones) is very scientific and
detailed about how and why whole raw foods are best for our pet
carnivores. I suggest you read this book.

> what are the risks of feeding exclusively raw food ?

Percieved risks are added danger to humans from bacterial
contamination and intestinal perforation or impaction from the bone,
also the danger of choking. If all normal precautions are taken when
handling raw meat, there is no reason to worry about getting sick.
Dogs are designed to eat and digest raw bones, so when whole meaty
animal parts are fed, perforations and blockages are rare at best.
Sadly, an animal can choke on anything, even a single piece of
kibble, but by feeding large cumbersome pieces, the risk of choking
becomes almost negligible.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (37)
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________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

>No, no allergy, and it wouldn't show up as just one local spot like that.

Hi,Lora. Today,she is not shaking head at all and ear was looking much less reddish and almost hard to miss where iot was..just tiny tiny dot bump you can find, my husband said.I did not find dot but he did he found the area.

Anyway,her ear seemed to be better. Possibly bug bite or some kind,I guess.

>Could it be that maybe she was bothered by it earlier, but you didn't noticeit until you were >REALLY paying attention to her after she vomited?

Yes,it is possible i did not notice it at all until then. At the same time,I was teaching her "scratch" on cue (just for fun trick),and I maybe missed it if she is doing thinking feeling bothered or trying to impress me.So far,she does scratch on cue just lightly around side twice paw scratch:-P My husband was laughing when he saw her do this on cue.

>as long as she's a happy dog, she sounds like she survived her introduction to marrow.

Well,yes,I would not do the same again...

thanks

yassy

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

12. Fish Question....
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

Do they need to be cleaned? i.e scales removed?

Also... what's a good fish to start with? When I tried to feed a small
whole butterfish, my dog fasted for two days.

Since then I've been feeding *gasp!* tuna or canned salmon. Now that
I've found you guys *grins massively* I know better.

So do tell....

where should I start with fish feeding?

Kae

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11801

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
From: kaseyfrankie
1b. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
From: kevinvictorbutton
1d. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
From: Michael Moore

2a. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
From: Ash
2b. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
From: Andrea
2c. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
From: pet.wellness
2d. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: first time to Asian market now with questions
From: Andrea

4a. Re: Charkee had a tooth pulled yesterday........Update
From: tottime47
4b. Re: Charkee had a tooth pulled yesterday........Update
From: costrowski75

5. Dehydrated Liver
From: tgberman

6a. Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
From: tottime47

7. Re: Emu neck, backs, legs - anyone fed them?
From: Lori C

8a. Medication Questions
From: brake4breyers832
8b. Re: Medication Questions
From: pet.wellness

9a. Re: Charkee had a tooth pulled today..........need advice........
From: pet.wellness

10a. Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
From: Yasuko herron

12a. Re: Glucosamine for Arthritis due to Dysplasia
From: miningcamp_labs

13. Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
From: creativevazquez

14. filler food
From: verrelli

15a. Re: Cow heads?
From: Yasuko herron
15b. Re: Cow heads?
From: Yasuko herron

16. Cheap chicken parts in North East PA!!
From: Kendra

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
Posted by: "kaseyfrankie" Julian1013@aol.com kaseyfrankie
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

Hi Linda,
I also have a female GSD, 11 months old and she is pretty lean as
well. I began her on Raw when she was about 8 1/2 months and have seen
nothing but imporovements since. The changes in her poop alone will
amaze you. With Raw it is suggested to begin cold turkey because
feeding kibble after a raw meal and vise versa can cause intestinal
upset, seeing as how the raw is digested much faster. With Sophie I
started her out on chicken leg quarters. Chicken is bland and is a
great starter, a lot of dogs aren't ready to tackle beef and such
right away. Give her a large chicken leg quarter once a day and I just
bought 2 packs of gizzards and hearts and divide them up with the leg
quarters so she has a little organ meat as well. Once she gets used to
that and seems to digest it fine you could throw in some chicken
livers also, but liver is rich so I wouldn't give it right away. My
GSD will absolutly not touch fish and doesn't prefer turkey.. so you
will find her personal preferences as you go along. Good luck and
welcome!
Kasey S.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kevinvictorbutton"
<kevinvictorbutton@...> wrote:
>
> i've read that you shouldn't feed
> kibble and raw at the same meal. so my questions are:
> 1)how do i get going, cold turkey, or gradually, if so how?
> 2) does anyone have experience of EPI?
> 3) can anyone recommend a good book to read, if i go down
> this route
> i want to make sure she has all the right vitamins, trace elements
> etc.
> 4)what is the best thing to get started on?

Linda,
Check out my web page at http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

for the answers to most of your questions. Read the book "Work
Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at

http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF format
for free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
Posted by: "kevinvictorbutton" kevinvictorbutton@yahoo.co.uk kevinvictorbutton
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kevinvictorbutton"
> <kevinvictorbutton@> wrote:
> >
> > i've read that you shouldn't feed
> > kibble and raw at the same meal. so my questions are:
> > 1)how do i get going, cold turkey, or gradually, if so how?
> > 2) does anyone have experience of EPI?
> > 3) can anyone recommend a good book to read, if i go down
> > this route
> > i want to make sure she has all the right vitamins, trace
elements
> > etc.
> > 4)what is the best thing to get started on?
>
> Linda,
> Check out my web page at http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

> for the answers to most of your questions. Read the book "Work
> Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at
> http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF format
> for free at the same location.
>
> A few informative web sites are:
> http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
> http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
> http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Thank you both very much for your prompt replies, and Bill your site
was very informative. i've decided to go for it, starting tonight.
i'll keep you posted on progress.
Linda

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: changing over to raw for the first time
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

Okay, Linda, I'll share my GSD experiences with you, but first, relax and breathe deeply. It's much less complicated than you are making it. Honest.

>>1)how do i get going, cold turkey, or gradually, if so how?<<

Cold turkey!! Or beef. Or chicken. Just stopping feeding kibble and start feeding raw.

>>2) does anyone have experience of EPI?<<

Yes!! Lots of folks on the list feed EPI dogs. My rescue GSD, Holly, included.

>>3) can anyone recommend a good book to read, if i go down this route i want to make sure she has all the right vitamins, trace elements etc.<<

Yes, Dr. Tom Lonsdale's "Work Wonders" which you can download free on his website www.rawmeatybones.com for free.
And here's where I believe you are overthinking this (as many of us do initially). Think about this: for thousands of years, dogs were fed what nature intended -- raw meat with bones, and some organs (offal). The species thrived. It's only since the advent of kibble (1930's) that many problems and diseases came into being. If you feed a species appropriate raw diet (and yes, we know that prey model *is* the most species appropriate), you will not need to concern yourself with vitamins, trace elements, etc. -- it's all provided for you by Mother Nature.

>>4)what is the best thing to get started on?<<

The best thing is whatever you can find/have on hand/can afford. Many folks start with chicken because it's inexpensive and readily available most places. But some start with venison or pork or beef. It does seem best to stick with one meat for a week or two so the dog can adjust. I kept my GSD on chicken exclusively for a month, as her digestive system was really out of whack, but now she can eat almost anything without issue. She's been rawfed for 6 yrs., and is healthy and happy.
Good luck with your journey, and please know that it is the *best* thing you can do for your GSD!!

-- Anne Moore, who's lived with GSDs for over 30 yrs., in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
Posted by: "Ash" want4rain@yahoo.com want4rain
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

to update and answer some questions- a tortie is a domestic short hair
cat with tortoiseshell markings.

and i dont mean to be rude here but when i said she should weigh 8lbs
at her smallest that was slightly malnutritioned and currently she
weighs THREE POUNDS. if anyone had the weight of cats bones in
adulthood id be interested in what that is because i betcha she is
pretty close to that mark. there is no meat on her at all. im thankful
that she is simply moving. my vet was plainly shocked at the feel of
her. i dont feel she is capable of going through the first steps of
raw. i can not afford to have her barfing up her food for a few days.
her body can not handle the physical stress of it, let alone going
without that nutrition. thats aside from the physical changes she
would have to adjust from being fed.... god knows what before.

also, when raw feeding you feed on a weekly basis. you make sure that
in a weeks time they get what they need. eat a little meat and bones
today. a little offal the next day... a different animal, a whole
fish... right now she needs as much nutrition as she can get in a day.

bottom line while raw is ideal for a healthy cat, thats beside the
point. she is *quite* unhealthy. a home made diet is better than what
my vets sponsored with.

i also have adoptablilty to think of. while the raw movement is
catching on, far more people feed kibble and in all honesty, id settle
for someone who was willing to feed Wellness, as long as it wasnt
grocery store cat food.

update-
we will finish up the foster papers today or tomorrow at the latest.
we had her wormed last night and put a dose of Sentinel on her. i
think i picked off 11 ticks?? YUCK! hopefully in the next few days she
will be flea free. no ear mites, no upper respiratory issues so far.
she has had 2 good poops. im down to feeding her 3 full servings of
what i feed my adults cats daily lol!! she is wolfing all of it down.

if there is anyone who has rehabilitated a starved cat, id greatly
appreciate some advice.

thank you!!

-ashley

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

Ok, it makes a little more sense now. I have been under the
impression that this little one was a dog, not a cat. It's a whole
lot different trying to switch a cat to raw in the first place, much
less if they are sick, but I still think you should feed as much raw
as she will take.

Last year one of my cats went missing for two or three months. When
he came back he was severely malnourished. We had to dice up heart,
pork, raw tuna, anything that would entice him to eat and soak it in
canned tuna water. We also blended liver and chicken meat to force
feed him later, but he hated it. Unfortunately, he came home with HL
and his liver was so damaged that we couldn't save him.

Sadly, last month Juggernaut's brother, Xavier, was bitten by a black
widow or something and got really sick. He stopped eating enough and
just hid under the bed. After knowing what happened with his
brother, we started doing anything we could to get him to eat. My bf
started by just feeding canned ki**le, because he was sure Xavier
would eat it. After a week of stuffing himself with the canned, he
was still hiding under the bed and losing a litte weight. I started
chopping up hearts and pork for him but at first he refused. I mixed
the raw with the canned and he ate it happily. Every day he would
get more raw and less canned. His recovery was very quick once he
starte eating raw again. Now he is back to refusing canned food and
trying to steal the dogs' food.

For now, don't worry so much about "balanced" meals. If you can't
get over the idea of balanced, take the time to chop up a tiny bit of
organ for every meal. Use bribe foods if you have to, but you'll
never know how she does with it until you try. She might take right
to it, and if she doesn't you can always add good raw food to
something she will eat.

She may or may not get adopted by someone who will continue raw
feeding, but that is no reason to deprive her of good food now. I'm
glad that she is eating, though, it's a great sign. The best food I
can recommend is pork for putting on some healthy weight.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ash" <want4rain@...> wrote:
>
> to update and answer some questions- a tortie is a domestic short
> hair cat with tortoiseshell markings.

Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))

Good for you, rescuing this stray and helping to restore her health.
Personally, I think you are underestimating the survival skills of
cats. It's very likely she's survived this long by scavenging and
hunting, eating anything and everything. Why would her adaptability
change when she enters a human home? Clearly, you want to do the best
by her that you can. If she has a voracious appetite and keeps it
down, feed her raw. It really is a better choice. If you rehome her
and her new humans won't feed raw, she'll adapt. Cats are survivors.
Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ash" <want4rain@...> wrote:
>
> to update and answer some questions- a tortie is a domestic short hair
> cat with tortoiseshell markings.
>
>
> bottom line while raw is ideal for a healthy cat, thats beside the
> point. she is *quite* unhealthy. a home made diet is better than what
> my vets sponsored with.
>
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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2d. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

"Ash" <want4rain@...> wrote:
> i dont feel she is capable of going through the first steps of
> raw. i can not afford to have her barfing up her food for a few
days.
> her body can not handle the physical stress of it, let alone going
> without that nutrition.
*****
Do you know she is unwilling to eat raw food? Or are you assuming
she will not/cannot? If you haven't offered her any succulent bits
you should at least it a try. Just because you are more comfortable
with kibble doesn't mean she is. And there is no question at all the
nutrition raw food delivers will be less stressful than anything
kibble can offer.

hats aside from the physical changes she
> would have to adjust from being fed.... god knows what before.
*****
Right, who the heck knows what she ate before! Precisely. Why
assume it was kibble? Given the hiatus between meals, perhaps this
would be an appropriate time to try raw. While it's abundantly clear
you cannot allow her to starve, I think you should give her a stab at
raw before you feed kibble. This may be a case in which your comfort
level and hers are in conflict.

> also, when raw feeding you feed on a weekly basis. you make sure
that
> in a weeks time they get what they need. eat a little meat and bones
> today. a little offal the next day... a different animal, a whole
> fish... right now she needs as much nutrition as she can get in a
day.
*****
Great excuse, doesn't work. If you have to get a bit of "everything"
in her day by day, you do it. There is not likely a person here who
will tell you feed "big picture" if "little picture" is what you need
to do.

The fact is, if you do feed "big picture" she will indeed get all the
nutrition she needs, but there is no reason not to feed "complete and
balanced" each day if you see such an approach being useful. I think
it is your lack of confidence, experience and knowledge that leads
you to these conclusions.

> bottom line while raw is ideal for a healthy cat, thats beside the
> point. she is *quite* unhealthy. a home made diet is better than
what
> my vets sponsored with.
*****
Again, close but no cigar. Raw is not the bailiwick of the the
healthy, nor is it the realm of the wealthy. How you can expect to
get maximum bio-available nutritional via kibble is no sense to me.
A species appropriate diet works for big, small, young, old, healthy,
sick, weak, strong. It will not work though if you don't feed it.

> i also have adoptablilty to think of. while the raw movement is
> catching on, far more people feed kibble and in all honesty, id
settle
> for someone who was willing to feed Wellness, as long as it wasnt
> grocery store cat food.
*****
Hey, you get full marks for nailing all the prevailing arguments
proposed by rescue operations. Still, this one is as much without
support as your others.

What happens to the cat down the road will be determined down the
road. What you can do NOW is what you should be addressing. What
difference YOU can make now matters now, not what SOMEONE else will
or won't do later. You have no more reason to expect her forever
home to feed Wellness over Friskies than feed Wellness instead of
raw. Why even try to envision how dumbed down her diet will get?
People can do that without your help. Feed top notch now, let the
future invent itself.

You get the highest quality, most appropriate food into the girl and
perhaps just perhaps the adopter will a. also be a raw feeder or b.
be inclined to switch to raw based on your recommendation. And who's
to prevent you from choosing to place the cat with a raw household?

I recommend you allow her to try bits of raw meat, including bits of
liver, before you retreat to the known comfort of kibble; if she eats
raw excellent but if she doesn't and you feed kibble, consider adding
bits of raw meat to her processed food. You just never know.

You might want to join rawcat.
Post message: rawcat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawcat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: rawcat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: first time to Asian market now with questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

I live in California, and when I find it at a market (which is rare) it
is usually $2.50-3/lb. And usually it is a leg or some other
beautifully trimmed piece. Luckily we can buy it through our buying
group for Southern Ca for $1.37/lb. This is a whole goat cut into 6
pieces, and some are less meaty than others, but the boys really love
it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:

>
> What is a good price for goat? I'm going to try my asian market.

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: Charkee had a tooth pulled yesterday........Update
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:49 am ((PDT))

Ok,He threw up a little last night about 11:30

Odd thing was none of the chicken I'd fed earlier was in it.

It was slimy and clear to light brown....just one glob...

This morning I woke up to runny stools everywhere and he was laying
with his head in the empty water bowl.......He just barely raised it
to look at me....it was pitiful and put me into a tizzy, lol...

I put a little water in the bowl......not wanting to give to fast
and he drank it.......

about an hour later offered some ground chicken,he seemed interested
and took a few bites,then backed off...did drink more water
and trying to potty again......

He is peeing......but still seems very out of it.......Is this ok
or is it time to call the vet?

I've never had a dog have a tooth pulled before and he just seems
not right......

Other problems he's had, he's bounced right back, not a whinny type
of dog......

He has quit crying, so that helps,cause I wasn't sure if it was pain
or hunger....

Chris O, Jeni & Ginny, Thanks for your common sense advice, it helped
me make
it through the night without calling doc's cell phone number, lol.
I'm sure he appreciates it too.

Carol & Charkee (so, am I sick or not?)

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Charkee had a tooth pulled yesterday........Update
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:38 am ((PDT))

"tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
>> I've never had a dog have a tooth pulled before and he just seems
> not right......
>
> Other problems he's had, he's bounced right back, not a whinny type
> of dog......
>
> He has quit crying, so that helps,cause I wasn't sure if it was pain
> or hunger....
*****
This does not sound like a comfortable extraction to me. I would be
talking the vet I would, 'twere me. This strikes me more as pain than
hunger. If you were not sent home with pain meds, you should talk to
your vet about them. Whether they're allopathic or homeopathic or
holistic, there's nothing wrong with pain relief.

Please let us know what's up.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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5. Dehydrated Liver
Posted by: "tgberman" me@toddberman.com tgberman
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:53 am ((PDT))

I recently bought a large amount of beef liver. I dehydrated it and
feet it to my pooch as treats. I have three questions on this...

Some of the liver i cut up was a little thicker cut, so it is not dry
and leathery (it is a little soft in the middle)... will this go bad
if it is kept in the refrigerator? I am pretty sure the fully dry
ones will last a while.

Second, does dehydrating take away a lot of the nutrients (like
cooking). He gets a few of these treats a day and I am wondering if
giving him the treats, plus adding some liver to his meals is too
much? Should I count the dried liver as organ meat, or is it really
just "bonus"?

Thanks!

Todd (and Phred)

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

Sorry, last post just went through without signature.

So........now we know what you're really feeding that boy, lol

Carol & Charkee

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>

> Don't tell Tomo! We eat with chopsticks every day. Tonight it was
> salad and beef liver (yes, raw...).
>
> ginny and Tomo, "Stickman"
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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7. Re: Emu neck, backs, legs - anyone fed them?
Posted by: "Lori C" labcope@yahoo.com labcope
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

Hi,
Has anyone fed Emu necks, backs or legs? I am wondering how much meat is on the meaty backs and necks. Also, are the leg bones too big and hard (for retrievers) or are they edible? I'm getting ready to place an order and want to know what the best parts are....
Thanks!
Lori C

---------------------------------
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8a. Medication Questions
Posted by: "brake4breyers832" pebbles_diehl@hotmail.com brake4breyers832
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone, I just joined recently and am thoroughly enjoying
reading all the posts and info about this wonderful way of feeding.
I have two chihuahua's (5 and 3 yrs.) and a dachshund (9 mo.) who I
want to put on this diet. It just makes sense! The chihuahua's are
mother and daughter, daughter was the runt and is only about 2-2 1/2
lbs., but I think she will be able to take the natural food just
fine. Should I worry about her blood sugar levels? I plan on
feeding twice a day (small meat meal in the morn. and the rest of
the meal w/bones-starting w/chicken first-in the evening).
They usually have free access to the food and it hasn't been a
problem until recently. The mother chihuahua, after being fixed a
few months ago has gained a lot of weight. The vet said it was only
about a pound, pound 1/2, but she looks and acts miserable. We have
been fighting skin "allergies" (prescribed by vet) and she is on
Temaril-P (trimeprazine tartrate, prednisolone), 1/2 tablet a day
for basically the rest of her life. She also has frequent yeast
infections in her ears and both the chihuahua's breath reeks! I
know raw diet is not a miracle cure, but if it can help in any way,
plus it is natural, it would help her out tons. My question is,
should I continue the Temaril, then wean her off and see how it goes
on the diet, stop completely, or not? When should I try to wean
her? Thank you so much and I will continue to do my research for
anything else. I think I am going to start them next week!
Susan D.
Chloe, Pip and Frankie

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Medication Questions
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

> Should I worry about her blood sugar levels?

Blood sugar should not be an issue when you are feeding raw. High or
low blood sugar is more often caused by grain-based kibble.

We have
> been fighting skin "allergies" (prescribed by vet) and she is on
> Temaril-P (trimeprazine tartrate, prednisolone), 1/2 tablet a day
> for basically the rest of her life. She also has frequent yeast
> infections in her ears and both the chihuahua's breath reeks!

Skin allergies and yeast infections are the symptoms of a severely
compromised immune system. This often occurs as a side effect of
over-vaccinating our pets. I highly recommend that you contact a
homeopathic vet to help with these conditions as well as guide you
while you withdraw the vet meds. Suppressive treatments manage
symptoms but do not cure the disease. They are also known to have side
effects that can damage your dog's liver and set her up for chronic
disease or worse as you get down the road.

No more vaccinations. A good raw diet. Homeopathic treatment to
eliminate the effects of previous vaccinations. Your babies should be
all set for a long and healthy life.

Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brake4breyers832"
<pebbles_diehl@...> wrote:
>
> When should I try to wean
> her? Thank you so much and I will continue to do my research for
> anything else. I think I am going to start them next week!
> Susan D.
> Chloe, Pip and Frankie
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Charkee had a tooth pulled today..........need advice........
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:43 am ((PDT))

I'm no expert but I think the vet may have wanted you to withhold food
for 24 hours to be sure that the blood clotted in the empty tooth
socket. "Dry socket" can be extremely painful in humans. I can't image
that dogs are an exception. Beyond that, he was also being careful not
to upset you, the client, if the dog reacted to the anesthesia by
vomiting. Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> Ok had to have a tooth pulled today, molar in the back...
>
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

>My 20 lb. Boston does well with the bone density of these

Hi,Laurie. I have fed second time the porkneck bone and my corgi that weigh around 30lb consume all bone and meat. It is not as soft as chicken bones but she is ok with that.

This morning, I woke up 1 hour later than usual weekdays and,I came out from shower and heard wiered noise from my dog's crate area. So,I looked inside and she made noise and vomited yellow bile and followed by that,only 1 piece of neckbone I fed yesterday came out.

It is probably combination of bit late to be fed and one piece of bone was too dense maybe??

I wake up at same time today to usual weekends but,have had no problems of empty stomack before on weekends.

Do you think the vomiting was due for bone only? or combination of bit late to be fed for weekdays and bone density?

I did not see bits and pieces of bones coming out,just 1 pice, foot tumb nail sized length and 2nd hand finger width,and not too big but,maybe could not pass through the intestine due density..

I thought about fasting her a bit but since I doid not see many piece of bones,I fed her chicken;the basic meal. It is not coming out yet so,it be in her tum ok I think.

yassy

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11a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

>> Just another reason why dogs should NOT use chopsticks!
Hi,Lora. Well,I used chopstick to get the marrow inside the bone because stick is easy to slide in and can fish thing out.Well,it did too well so,she ended up vomiting for too rich snack though:-P No more big marrow snack meal for palette..

> Tonight it was salad and beef liver (yes, raw...).
Hi,Ginny. Your dog eat lettace too? My dog eat lettace too.She likes crunchy part only so,if you give lettace to my dog,she will leave leaf for you to pick up.I do not give her lots of lettace but,She like that.

yassy

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12a. Re: Glucosamine for Arthritis due to Dysplasia
Posted by: "miningcamp_labs" miningcamp_labs@yahoo.com miningcamp_labs
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:47 am ((PDT))

+++++Mod note: please sign and trim your messages. This one trimmed for you. *****
>My big boy is doing well on raw diet alone so far, but it's only been
seven days since we started. I still give him "Dog Gone Pain", just in
case. On our recent pre RAW camping trip I forgot his supplements.
With all the running and exercise he got really lame so we made a trip
to town to get them for him and they helped tremendously. I just don't
want him to go through that again. I'm hoping RAW will make all the
difference, but at home he doesn't get all that exercise, just
swimming, so it's hard to tell. Thanks for all the info, Chris O.
>

Messages in this topic (16)
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13. Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
Posted by: "creativevazquez" creativevazquez@yahoo.com creativevazquez
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

I would like anyone out there who is from New Jersey to share where
they get there meats resonably priced. I live about an hour west of ny
and 30 minutes east of pennsylvania. I would like to find good sources
of chicken,rabbit (which is very expensive at supermarket)beef, venison
or any other meats. Greentripe if I wanted to feed would probably have
to get it online. Any suggestions would help? I have two young lab
poodle mix that are 7 months and around 45lbs and always hungry. They
easilly eat a half chicken and look around for more so I need some
money saving tips and sources. Here in the northeast everything is
very expensive. We've been feeding raw mostly chicken for about a
month. So far dogs ok one reallys needs to gain a little.
Gloria
Labradoodle babies

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14. filler food
Posted by: "verrelli" ktverrelli@bellsouth.net verrelli
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

What does one feed when activity level decreases

For example it's summer and very hot my dogs don't want to do for long
walks (me neither) so I am cutting back on their food

I would like to give them something to satisfy them when they dont'
get much (just giving extra bones doesn't seem to help - it either
binds them up or if there is marrow makes them fatter)

Kellie Verrelli

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15a. Re: Cow heads?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

Hi,the cow head comes with brain inside too??

I read somewhere that if you like to avoid madcow disease,avoid feeding brain of cows.

Are they safe enough?

yassy

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15b. Re: Cow heads?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

>For my dogs, there is really not alot of meat on the head

Hi,Jeni. I read that cow head is about 40-50 lbs on prey4pets.com. Cow is a big animal and I can imagine why so heavy but,not much meat for your dog?I read still cheek meat is around.Still not much meat?How big is your dog?

My dog is corgi and last time months ago was 30lb.She probably lost some weight I feel,but even for her,not much meat?

Her BD coming up on 29th August,and,I just had a slight idea that maybe it will be a nice BD surprise present for her.

My questions doing that is that,of course,the dogs would not eat head bones and teeth,I imagine so,you toss into garbage bin correct? Trash guy say nothing about it?

Our garbage guy,when contracted with them,they sent us what you can toss and cannot toss and one of the item was dead animal body. I know that bone is not dead body but, bone part of animals,do they take without any problems?

And, for 30 lb dog,daily take about 10oz(less than 1 lb) for 2% intake to be exact,is it going to be too much and give goo poop afterwords?

If the meat on it was more than good enough for my dog (corgi is well known for they do not know when to stop eating I heard from breeder),and one dog ate much much much more than usual take,then, how many days do you fast dogs?

just curious.

thank you

yassy

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16. Cheap chicken parts in North East PA!!
Posted by: "Kendra" kbbooks@ptd.net knkbor
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

I just got back from the grocery store, having HAD to go on a hunt for
meat since I've been out of it for the last 24 hrs.
I hit the jackpot this morning on chicken!
Shoprite in Brodheadsville (Stroudsburg area of Pennsylvania) had
Tyson Natural (no hormones, no antibiotic, no additives) chicken:
gizzards and hearts $.53/lb; backs $.53/lb; leg quarters $.59 lb!
These are NOT products I've EVER seen there! I've been looking,
believe me and this is the market I usually shop at. I've been
desperate to find inexpensive meat for these dogs and getting very
discouraged about not finding it, so this is so rewarding for me.

I got 4 pkgs of the hearts/gizzards and 4 of the leg quarters (great
price on those; can't get that anywhere around here i've seen) and 2
of the backs. I hope they keep carrying them. The livers were on
sale too.... can't remember how much but I got a box of those. I'm
planning to go back at the beginning of next week for more and hope
they have it. I figure when the meat dept sees how much they sold in
just one day, of something they don't usually carry, maybe they'll be
sure and keep ordering it!

I rushed home and tore open the pkgs.. so excited to feed my dogs;
LOL, you'd think I had just found GOLD!

Kendra, mom to two beautiful Airedales

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