[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11802

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: Yasuko herron
1b. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: metra_co
1c. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: chele519
1d. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
1e. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
From: kaebruney
1f. Getting the prize for liver, lol.........
From: tottime47

2a. Garbage Hounds...
From: Tammy Chamberlain
2b. Re: Garbage Hounds...
From: Carol Santangelo
2c. Re: Garbage Hounds...
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Emu neck, backs, legs - anyone fed them?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
From: creativevazquez
4c. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
From: creativevazquez

5. For Mothers with Toddlers
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Cow heads?
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
From: ginny wilken
7b. Re: Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
From: tottime47

8a. Re: filler food
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: Dehydrated Liver
From: chele519

10.1. new to raw feeding
From: Genevieve
10.2. Re: new to raw feeding
From: Lyse Garant
10.3. Re: new to raw feeding
From: merril Woolf
10.4. Re: new to raw feeding
From: Andrea

11a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
From: Yasuko herron

12. Fish Question....
From: kaebruney

Messages
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1a. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

>I've trtied baking it with garlic, frying it a little.. even mixing it with egg and rice and still no >go.

HI.My dog usually go for organ part or guizzard or whatever not real meat one first for meal but then,one day,she decided to protest not to eat beef liver she used to eat with no prob.

So,what I did was beaten egg lightely and pour 1teaspoon of raw honey with 1/2teaspoon of apple cidar vinegar and pour over whatever dog prostesting not to eat in the dog bowl.She ate with gusto.

So, those are when my dog protested,I do that.

I hear most dog likes apple cidar vinegar.

Hope it healps.

yassy

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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1b. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

The ONLY way Rusty will eat any kind of liver (besides dehydrated
treats) is chopped into small bits and mixed with ground tripe. Mmmm,
stinky tripe makes everything yummy!

Metra

> Oka, my boys hat eliver.
> I mean HATE it.
>
> I've trtied baking it with garlic, frying it a little.. even mixing it
> with egg and rice and still no go.
>
> When I feed it as is, they will eat all their other food first and
> leave me little liver strips on the food mats.
>

> HELP!...
>
> Kae
>

Messages in this topic (16)
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1c. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

Mine did not like it raw at first so I fed it frozen and they loved
it. Gradually I have given it so it is partially frozen and then
thawed and now they are fine. I think for them it was the texture. Try
it frozen and see if that makes a difference.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> Question - if a dog is on a raw diet, and doing well, but does not
> like liver, any kind --- even though its good for them, but they HATE
> IT, should we make them eat it? This must sound stupid... but ... do
> wild dogs always eat liver, do they hate it too?
> thanks,
> geraldine

Messages in this topic (16)
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1d. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:00 am ((PDT))

I gave my picky prissypants Toy Poodle some raw liver, mixed in with
that XKALIBER she received as a gift. She picked out the liver and lined
it up neatly on the edge of the plate. I left the plate on the floor,
and when she get home that night she ate up all the liver. I fell down
in a dead faint on the floor.

That is the first and only time she has EVER eaten liver that wasn't
freeze-dried. I can only conclude that it had taken on some of the scent
(quite strong) of the XKALIBER. Next I plan to try mixing raw liver in
with some tripe. I have this suspicion that Little Miss Prim is going to
adore tripe. I think that's what she loves most about the XKALIBER.

So: after four years of trying, Pookie finally ate some raw liver. I
think I deserve a prize for Particularly Persistent Liver-Pushing Pet
Parent.

Carolyn J. Garnaas

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Messages in this topic (16)
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1e. Re: WHat are sme other organ options besides liver?
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!!!

Last night after much struggle they ate the liver that was left from
their meal.

It seems they are better with beef liver than pork or chicken. They
NEVER eat the pork liver!!

I'm also going to try the ground meat / liver slop. Great idea!!

Thanks everybody!

Kae

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, my boys hate liver.
> I mean HATE it.

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Getting the prize for liver, lol.........
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:17 am ((PDT))

Your stories are so cute, lol.....I'd love to meet Miss Priss........

If you ever get your hands on some rabbit livers, bet she'll like
those.........

My boy is not into chicken liver.......but rabbit anything he'll
eat............

First time I offer him some rabbit offal, he took one sniff and dug
in........about
half way through, he looks up and I swear he had a tiny pair of lungs
hanging
from his mouth........I know.......gross........but he does love
those rabbits..........

Carol, Charkee & Maggie

> So: after four years of trying, Pookie finally ate some raw liver. I
> think I deserve a prize for Particularly Persistent Liver-Pushing
Pet
> Parent.
>
> Carolyn J. Garnaas

Messages in this topic (16)
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2a. Garbage Hounds...
Posted by: "Tammy Chamberlain" tamgarboxers@telus.net sugerray50
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

I'm sure that in my last post, I mentioned that we're building and
living (family of 4 with 2 dogs) in a 28' travel trailer.

Well - we've been rawfeeding for 6 years now - and are completely
comfortable with the whole process...and even planned our build around
it (have a freezer right outside our front door filled with dog food).

We've never had an issue with our Sugar Ray being a counter surfer or
garbage hound...but then we got Cara. This girl has tried my patience
on numerous occasions. She has been both a counter surfer and a
garbage hound. We thought we'd broken her of it...but found out
yesterday she's just been lying in wait.

We'd had a heat wave here for a few days..and on one, I decided to buy
one of those rotisserie chickens from the grocery store. Now,
normally I'm very good at putting the garbage can up on the stove
while we're gone (to discourage any foraging). But yesterday I forgot.

I came home to my garbage strewn across the trailer...coffee
grounds...lettuce....and yes, the container that had been full of
chicken bones left over from the rotisserie chicken. All that was
left of that carcass was a wishbone and a wing bone that she'd missed.

Has anyone else had their dogs eat a cooked chicken carcass? She's
not showing signs of distress or discomfort (she was just really
thirsty when we came home yesterday....gee....I wonder why after all
that salt and grease???). Guess I won't be forgetting to put the
garbage container up again!

Tammy Chamberlain
TamGar Boxers Reg'd
Shawnigan Lake, BC

http://www.tamgarboxers.com
HOLTER RENTAL AVAILABLE

Dedicated breeders - raising happy, healthy, loving Boxers of Quality

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Garbage Hounds...
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

I had a similar thing happen to me just before I switched to raw. I always
crate my Bullmastiff puppy (he was 5 months then, now he's almost 7 months)
when I leave the house...just in case. Well, this one time I thought I'm
only going to be gone for 10 minutes so I'll leave him out. Came home to
find out that he ate 7 drumstick bones off a plate that was left on the
counter by the sink. I freaked out right away. Anyway, I then did some
research and read that you can give the dog some bread to soften the stomach
in hopes that the bones don't tear anything. Also, keep an eye on how the
dog is behaving (lethargic, won't eat, in distress). If you notice unusual
behavior definitely go to the vet. And, keep a watch on the poops for a few
days and make sure there is no blood. I, luckily, had no problems. I did
see some of the bone come out in his poop undigested...but other than that
he was fine. Keep us posted. I hope you have a similar experience.

Carol (Bruno and Zoe's mom)

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Messages in this topic (3)
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2c. Re: Garbage Hounds...
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

<sigh> I remember a similar situation when I was visiting my
parents. I walked into their kitchen to see the trash can knocked
over and an empty fried chicken bucket on the floor. Geiger was the
only dog inside, so I knew it had been him. I watched him with bated
breath for the next several days, expecting him to keel over any
minute. I fed him liver and stool loosening foods, just in case it
helped. He passed the bones just fine, well, with some discomfort,
but no problems. Since then I make sure I take out the trash at my
parent's house when I get there. Keep an eye on Cara and watch for
anything that makes you think she's in distress. Geiger showed no
signs of indigestion at all, just went along with his day. Hope
everything turns out ok.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Chamberlain"
<tamgarboxers@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone else had their dogs eat a cooked chicken carcass? She's
> not showing signs of distress or discomfort (she was just really
> thirsty when we came home yesterday....gee....I wonder why after all
> that salt and grease

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Emu neck, backs, legs - anyone fed them?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:56 am ((PDT))

Lori C <labcope@...> wrote:
> Has anyone fed Emu necks, backs or legs? I am wondering how much
meat is on the meaty backs and necks. Also,
*****
All those parts are potentially brilliant but too often they are
heartbreakers (though fortunately they are not considered
toothbreakers). An untrimmed (or minimally trimmed), uncut,
unsliced neck is fabulous, but finding one like that is becoming more
unlikely. Legs--especially whole legs and not trimmed out drums--are
fine engrossing meals for retrievers and even the tidied up legs
aren't bad but as more meat eaters become familiar with emu, meaty
legs are also increasingly rare.

I've never had access to backs but I imagine them to be pretty darn
big (which is fine) and pretty darn meatless (which is not fine).

I suggest you talk to the supplier about the meat content of these
parts. Ask for specifics--if you ask if they're meaty most will say
sure you bet even if the bones are bare naked. Definitely edible
though, meat or no meat. If you can talk to previous purchasers,
that mioght help you get an accurate description.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

"creativevazquez" <creativevazquez@...> wrote:
>
> I would like anyone out there who is from New Jersey to share where
> they get there meats resonably priced. I live about an hour west of
ny
> and 30 minutes east of pennsylvania.
*****
People who live in New Jersey will be able to help more if you just
identify the town/area you live. Knowing that you are willing to shop
an hour or so in a given direction is good but specifics count.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
Posted by: "creativevazquez" creativevazquez@yahoo.com creativevazquez
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:47 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "creativevazquez" <creativevazquez@> wrote:
> >
> > I would like anyone out there who is from New Jersey to share where
> > they get there meats resonably priced. I live about an hour west
of
> ny
> > and 30 minutes east of pennsylvania.
> *****
> People who live in New Jersey will be able to help more if you just
> identify the town/area you live. Knowing that you are willing to
shop
> an hour or so in a given direction is good but specifics count.
> Chris O
>
Thanks for the tip. I live in Hackettstown, NJ will be willing to
travel an hour at tops.
Gloria

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: Where to go for cheap meat in NJ?
Posted by: "creativevazquez" creativevazquez@yahoo.com creativevazquez
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "creativevazquez"
<creativevazquez@...> wrote:
>
> I would like anyone out there who is from New Jersey to share where
> they get there meats resonably priced. I live about an hour west
of ny
> and 30 minutes east of pennsylvania. I would like to find good
sources
> of chicken,rabbit (which is very expensive at supermarket)beef,
venison
> or any other meats. Greentripe if I wanted to feed would probably
have
> to get it online. Any suggestions would help? I have two young
lab
> poodle mix that are 7 months and around 45lbs and always hungry.
They
> easilly eat a half chicken and look around for more so I need some
> money saving tips and sources. Here in the northeast everything is
> very expensive. We've been feeding raw mostly chicken for about a
> month. So far dogs ok one reallys needs to gain a little.
> Gloria
> Labradoodle babies
>P.s. I live in Hackettstown, nj

Messages in this topic (4)
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5. For Mothers with Toddlers
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:03 am ((PDT))

Hey!
For the mothers with toddlers what are worried about bacteria from raw
fed dogs. Check this out.

http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/c/a/carnes/thekiss.jpeg

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Cow heads?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,the cow head comes with brain inside too??
>
> I read somewhere that if you like to avoid madcow disease,avoid
feeding brain of cows.
>
> Are they safe enough?
*****
There is no indication that dogs are susceptible to mad cow diesease.
You might want to avoid eating a cow brain though. Or not. Hard to
know precisely what the situation is right now, in the US.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

On Jul 13, 2007, at 6:57 AM, tottime47 wrote:

> Sorry, last post just went through without signature.
>
> So........now we know what you're really feeding that boy, lol
>
> Carol & Charkee

Baby spinach, actually, liberally coated with olive oil and kefir,
along with Bleu cheese crumbles, almonds, smoked salmon, egg, and
whatever else of it he wants - handed to him on chopsticks:) He
doesn't want celery or cucumber. We do not eat lettuce much, except
for the baby stuff I grow, and no tomatoes, etc. He gets a handful of
supplements for arthritis and a heart murmur, plus thyroid, so I
always have to have something he perceives as a treat to put them in.
His "real" dinner was liver and chicken feet last night.

He's old enough that I can spoil him rotten and not worry, and he
treats me pretty well, too.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (10)
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7b. Re: Ah ha Tomo eats lettuce?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT))

Gosh that dinner sounds great.........I need to stop by at dinner
time, lol...

I haven't gotten mine to eat a single veggie since he started raw.
I've offered but he turns up his nose, even at
them as treats..............

I just knew underneath that exterior you were an old softy, lol...

Makes me feel better to admit I'm one myself when it comes to my
dogs........

Oh, did I mention that I just took in a reject. Poor little thing
been dumped twice and she's only a yr & half old!

Dumped for barking and potty training, etc...... What in the heck
do people think dogs do?

Started her right on raw and she's lovin' it too.....No problems so
far.........

Now if I can just get my guy over his tooth problem and back eating,
we'll be set!

Carol & Charkee & Maggie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:

> He's old enough that I can spoil him rotten and not worry, and he
> treats me pretty well, too.
>
>
> ginny and Tomo

Messages in this topic (10)
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8a. Re: filler food
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

"For example it's summer and very hot my dogs don't want to do for long
walks (me neither) so I am cutting back on their food"

Ditto here - I'll give them their meals frozen and just feed less. No
filler foods. I found out the same on the beef bones/fat - they all put on
a couple lbs - so I just feed less and feed frozen. We also go to the river
for a swim in the evening after I get home from work - I need to try to do
that every night.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Dehydrated Liver
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))

I just got my dehydrator delivered yesterday. I'm going to try liver
this weekend. About how long did you have to dry it for? I have one of
those mandolin slicers so I was going to try slicing it while still
frozen to make it really thin.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tgberman" <me@...> wrote:
>
> I recently bought a large amount of beef liver. I dehydrated it and
> feet it to my pooch as treats. I have three questions on this...
>
> Some of the liver i cut up was a little thicker cut, so it is not dry
> and leathery (it is a little soft in the middle)... will this go bad
> if it is kept in the refrigerator? I am pretty sure the fully dry
> ones will last a while.
>
> Second, does dehydrating take away a lot of the nutrients (like
> cooking). He gets a few of these treats a day and I am wondering if
> giving him the treats, plus adding some liver to his meals is too
> much? Should I count the dried liver as organ meat, or is it really
> just "bonus"?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Todd (and Phred)
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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10.1. new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Genevieve" gene182000@yahoo.com gene182000
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))

I have been a member of this group for 2/3 weeks now and I really
enjoy reading the posts. Thanks to all the people who make this group
so full of information.
We have a 15 months partly golden retriever and labrador beautiful
dog. this is my first dog and I wanted so much to do the best for her
that she went to the vet a few days after we got her. she received
all the vaccines, got treatment against flea, a collar against ticks,
etc...
As most of you in the group, I rapidly began asking myself questions.
mainly about the kibble issue. this sounded to me so unfair, so
strange and so unhealthy, but the vet stopped me by saying that ...
astronautes were eating dry food for months and they were OK. I
replied that Pana was not supposed to be an astronaute but a happy
healthy dog, but still, you know the authority of somebody supposed
to be an expert...
Yet, I kept looking for other solutions. a few weeks ago, after Pana
had a third attack of skin inflamation, an uriniry tract infection,
etc... we took the plunge and tried home cooked food. I switched
this two weeks ago to raw feeding.
This morning she threw her yesterday evening meal, there was a big
piece of bone there that scared me. This evening, she struggled with
1/4 of chicken and finally did some very good teeth work on the
chicken and suddenly she swallowed nearly the whole piece. I am
really concerned about it. So, I cannot help but asking myself
questions.

Please, accept my following comments as true concerns and questions.
I have the feeling that all these issues are treated too emotionaly,
while, for the good of our pets, we should all try to relate to this
in the most curious and "scientific" manner. I do not have time to
look for myself to all the answers, and I am not sure they exit now,
I trust that some of you in this very knowledgable group have already
done thorough research about it.
I do believe, that I never again want to feed our Pana with kibble.
Now the question is what to feed:
raw feeding with no grains or home cook food....
I read carefuly the article about dogs being carnivores. Of course,
in the wild, dogs do not get cooked rice... But aren't we forgetting
that dogs have lived with humans for so long that they may have
adapted to home cooked food???
Well, if we want to be realistic, wild dogs do not get cooked food,
but they do not get frozen food either... we may as well believe that
food that has been frozen may have changed some of its
characteristics in a way that can affect the dog?
My question is, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, before the pet food industry
controlled so much of our doings regarding our pets, how where dogs
doing, and what were they eating for the most?
I never heard of dogs having diabetis when I was a child, or
epilepsis or skin inflamation.... today, these seem to be a high
percentage of our dogs life. But, were the dogs eating raw food then?

Please, believe me, I really want the best for my dog and I am ready
to "work" for getting it.
Now, does that mean that my dog should only get raw food?
I know that whole grains are recommended for people with diabetis and
actually recommended for everybody. Could that mean that the same
could be true for dogs? Could it be that cooked whole rice would be a
safe alternative of course together with some kind of proteins. Dogs
have been given pasta and rice for so long before the pet food
industry. How were they doing then? What was the longevity? Is there
any kind of comparison between dogs being fed raw food and dogs with
home cooked food?
Then I guess the question is: How much data do we have regarding dogs
being fed raw food?
I believe that all questions should be asked, then there it goes:
what are the risks of feeding exclusively raw food ?

I do hope that you will understand my concern and that my questions
will be related to.

thanks again,
Genevieve

Sorry my letter is so long. I am tremendously interested in hearing
your opinion about the above mentioned questions.

Messages in this topic (37)
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10.2. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:42 am ((PDT))

Genevieve, it's so funny that you asked the question about longevity. I was about to ask, has anyone raw fed a dog for its entire life, and if so, how long did it live? Past life expentancy?
Lyse

Genevieve <gene182000@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have been a member of this group for 2/3 weeks now and I really
enjoy reading the posts. Thanks to all the people who make this group
so full of information.
We have a 15 months partly golden retriever and labrador beautiful
dog. this is my first dog and I wanted so much to do the best for her
that she went to the vet a few days after we got her. she received
all the vaccines, got treatment against flea, a collar against ticks,
etc...
As most of you in the group, I rapidly began asking myself questions.
mainly about the kibble issue. this sounded to me so unfair, so
strange and so unhealthy, but the vet stopped me by saying that ...
astronautes were eating dry food for months and they were OK. I
replied that Pana was not supposed to be an astronaute but a happy
healthy dog, but still, you know the authority of somebody supposed
to be an expert...
Yet, I kept looking for other solutions. a few weeks ago, after Pana
had a third attack of skin inflamation, an uriniry tract infection,
etc... we took the plunge and tried home cooked food. I switched
this two weeks ago to raw feeding.
This morning she threw her yesterday evening meal, there was a big
piece of bone there that scared me. This evening, she struggled with
1/4 of chicken and finally did some very good teeth work on the
chicken and suddenly she swallowed nearly the whole piece. I am
really concerned about it. So, I cannot help but asking myself
questions.

Please, accept my following comments as true concerns and questions.
I have the feeling that all these issues are treated too emotionaly,
while, for the good of our pets, we should all try to relate to this
in the most curious and "scientific" manner. I do not have time to
look for myself to all the answers, and I am not sure they exit now,
I trust that some of you in this very knowledgable group have already
done thorough research about it.
I do believe, that I never again want to feed our Pana with kibble.
Now the question is what to feed:
raw feeding with no grains or home cook food....
I read carefuly the article about dogs being carnivores. Of course,
in the wild, dogs do not get cooked rice... But aren't we forgetting
that dogs have lived with humans for so long that they may have
adapted to home cooked food???
Well, if we want to be realistic, wild dogs do not get cooked food,
but they do not get frozen food either... we may as well believe that
food that has been frozen may have changed some of its
characteristics in a way that can affect the dog?
My question is, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, before the pet food industry
controlled so much of our doings regarding our pets, how where dogs
doing, and what were they eating for the most?
I never heard of dogs having diabetis when I was a child, or
epilepsis or skin inflamation.... today, these seem to be a high
percentage of our dogs life. But, were the dogs eating raw food then?

Please, believe me, I really want the best for my dog and I am ready
to "work" for getting it.
Now, does that mean that my dog should only get raw food?
I know that whole grains are recommended for people with diabetis and
actually recommended for everybody. Could that mean that the same
could be true for dogs? Could it be that cooked whole rice would be a
safe alternative of course together with some kind of proteins. Dogs
have been given pasta and rice for so long before the pet food
industry. How were they doing then? What was the longevity? Is there
any kind of comparison between dogs being fed raw food and dogs with
home cooked food?
Then I guess the question is: How much data do we have regarding dogs
being fed raw food?
I believe that all questions should be asked, then there it goes:
what are the risks of feeding exclusively raw food ?

I do hope that you will understand my concern and that my questions
will be related to.

thanks again,
Genevieve

Sorry my letter is so long. I am tremendously interested in hearing
your opinion about the above mentioned questions.

Lyse

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Messages in this topic (37)
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10.3. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:14 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
> Genevieve, it's so funny that you asked the question about longevity. I was about to ask,
has anyone raw fed a dog for its entire life, and if so, how long did it live? Past life
expentancy?
> Lyse

It's funny, but that question seems to be more a centred in North America than the rest of
the world because, believe it or not, many countries have never jumped on the processed
junk food band wagon quite so much as North America has.
Can you believe I never heard of kibble until I came to the US. It did and still does exist
outside of North America, but to many of us not raised here, kibble does not quite have
the strong hold on consumers that it does here.

If kibble and advertising from kibble companies is all you know, then it stands to reason
that one would think dogs only ever ate processed food. Look at the fast food industry in
north America. Can you believe there are people who don't eat that stuff? Hard to believe
I know, but when the public is saturated with junk food, it becomes the norm when in fact,
in other countries, it is not always that way. Sadly, many people outside the US copy what
is happening in the US. They switch to eating McDonalds and feeding processed junk food
to their dogs because that's what they do in the US. Sad, eh.

To answer your question, my dogs average 16 yrs with the oldest being 17 when she died
to the youngest to die from old age being 15. I fed raw before I came to the US and
other than a few years between the late 80's and early 90's, I have always fed a natural
diet. I got convinced to feed some junk food (along with raw which I just couldn't give
up) during that few years when premium junk food was thought to be the be-all and end-
all. The processed food companies did not convince me of this, other dog people who
were under the spell of processed food convinced me to try it. All their dogs died young-
ish and most of cancer along with the usual horrible rotting teeth and dull coats. I had
littermates to many of these dogs and mine all lived healthy to the end.

I have multiple dogs and none have ever tasted junk food. Table scraps, animals, dairy
goods and other odd stuff - yes, but nothing that ever came from a bag or can or box and
was processed first.

Dogs made it into the 20th century without Purina and if we look out for our own and our
pets health like we should, we and our pets can live to old age without all the junk food
related illnesses. I'm surprised processed food has made it this far into the 21st century.
With smarter consumers, maybe we can send them back to where they came from and
improve our and our pets health along with it.

Merril

Messages in this topic (37)
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10.4. Re: new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:18 am ((PDT))

Hi, Genevieve, I'm glad you are working your way towards raw food.
Let's answer some of your questions so you can go in whole hog.

> I read carefuly the article about dogs being carnivores. Of course,
> in the wild, dogs do not get cooked rice... But aren't we
> forgetting that dogs have lived with humans for so long that they
> may have adapted to home cooked food???

There's a misconseption here that being domesticated has changed dogs
into omnivores. Physiologically dogs are carnivores, period. They
are classified as a sub species of wolf, they are meant to eat meat.

*Can* dogs survive if they eat grains and veggies? I suppose so, but
that doesn't mean they should. We tend to humanize our dogs and cats
and think they should eat what we eat.

> food that has been frozen may have changed some of its
> characteristics in a way that can affect the dog?

Freezing food does not change food in the way cooking does. High
temperature denatures proteins and destroys enzymes. Frozen raw meat
can be defrosted and go back to normal. There is no way to "uncook"
meat.

> My question is, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, before the pet food
> industry controlled so much of our doings regarding our pets, how
> where dogs doing, and what were they eating for the most?
> I never heard of dogs having diabetis when I was a child, or
> epilepsis or skin inflamation.... today, these seem to be a high
> percentage of our dogs life. But, were the dogs eating raw food
> then?

I think you answered your own question there. Diabetes, allergies,
rotten teeth and gingivitis, all are more prevelant now than they
were 50 years ago. Back then dogs may not have been eating all raw,
but they were likely eating table scraps along with meat and bones.
For more information on this, you should read "Raw Meaty Bones
Promote Health" by Tom Lonsdale.

> I know that whole grains are recommended for people with diabetis
> and actually recommended for everybody. Could that mean that the
> same could be true for dogs?

No, dogs are not humans. The biology of humans and canines are
different. By the same rationale, I can deduce that a pet rabbit
should eat steak because I do, or I should give it a bit of red wine
every day because they say it is good for me.

> Dogs have been given pasta and rice for so long before the pet food
> industry. How were they doing then? What was the longevity?

This is not about what dogs *can* be fed. It is about looking at
what is *best* for your dog on a biological level and doing it.
People were eating hamburgers a long time before McDonald's came out
too. Though we didn't have a greater lifespan before fast food, we
were certainly more healthy.

> Then I guess the question is: How much data do we have regarding
> dogs being fed raw food?

Scientific research requires funding, and since the livestock
lobbyists haven't realized how much money they could make if everyone
switched to raw feeding, there isn't anyone to fund the research.
There have been some books written on the subject, I suggested Tom
Lonsdale, his first book (Raw Meaty Bones) is very scientific and
detailed about how and why whole raw foods are best for our pet
carnivores. I suggest you read this book.

> what are the risks of feeding exclusively raw food ?

Percieved risks are added danger to humans from bacterial
contamination and intestinal perforation or impaction from the bone,
also the danger of choking. If all normal precautions are taken when
handling raw meat, there is no reason to worry about getting sick.
Dogs are designed to eat and digest raw bones, so when whole meaty
animal parts are fed, perforations and blockages are rare at best.
Sadly, an animal can choke on anything, even a single piece of
kibble, but by feeding large cumbersome pieces, the risk of choking
becomes almost negligible.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (37)
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11a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

>No, no allergy, and it wouldn't show up as just one local spot like that.

Hi,Lora. Today,she is not shaking head at all and ear was looking much less reddish and almost hard to miss where iot was..just tiny tiny dot bump you can find, my husband said.I did not find dot but he did he found the area.

Anyway,her ear seemed to be better. Possibly bug bite or some kind,I guess.

>Could it be that maybe she was bothered by it earlier, but you didn't noticeit until you were >REALLY paying attention to her after she vomited?

Yes,it is possible i did not notice it at all until then. At the same time,I was teaching her "scratch" on cue (just for fun trick),and I maybe missed it if she is doing thinking feeling bothered or trying to impress me.So far,she does scratch on cue just lightly around side twice paw scratch:-P My husband was laughing when he saw her do this on cue.

>as long as she's a happy dog, she sounds like she survived her introduction to marrow.

Well,yes,I would not do the same again...

thanks

yassy

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Messages in this topic (10)
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12. Fish Question....
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

Do they need to be cleaned? i.e scales removed?

Also... what's a good fish to start with? When I tried to feed a small
whole butterfish, my dog fasted for two days.

Since then I've been feeding *gasp!* tuna or canned salmon. Now that
I've found you guys *grins massively* I know better.

So do tell....

where should I start with fish feeding?

Kae

Messages in this topic (1)
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