[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11796

There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Some feeding questions
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Casey Post
2b. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
2c. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: eminemmmfan
2d. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: ginny wilken
2e. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Trish Chapman
2f. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: pelirojita

3a. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
From: delcaste
3c. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
From: delcaste

4a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
From: Carrie Kelly
4b. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
From: rottinluvr

5. admin: Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Jane Anderson

6. BAD GIRL WILL ONLY EAT PORK :(
From: alliecaracleo

7. Spoiled meat
From: nwohiopma

8a. Re: labwork
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
8b. Re: labwork
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Some feeding questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:48 pm ((PDT))

jeff wissler <wisslewj@...> wrote:
>> First off, beef spleen? Are there any precautions to
> giving these? Are there any hormones they can get too
> much of there or is it more like liver? Feed what
> they can handle every so often?
*****
Spleen is right there at the top of the squidgy ick list--sort of
like jellied blood wrapped in skin. Pork spleen is less bloody. The
spleen does not have the same caveats as liver, it's more like kidney
in that regard. Compare them if you need to using the USDA Nutrient
Database
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Yes, you can feed too much of a good thing. Feed kidney and spleen
to bowel tolerance but remember that experience and expose extends
bowel tolerance. I regularly feed liver, kidney and spleen to the
recommended amounts; and don't when they're not available.

> First, any precautions to wild deer or rabbit?
*****
Freeze first for parasites if you aren't sure. Ask your local fish
and game dudes if you dare. Here's a link from a couple years ago
for rabbit:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/84860

Deer will probably carry fleas and maybe worms that ought not be a
problem for healthy dogs but if you worry, freeze for a week or two.
Dogs are not susceptible to Chronic Wasting Disease so don't worry
about that; cats are though. My cat adores and does really well on
venison so I continue to feed it to her but I don't give her any of
the spinal cord body parts.

> Second, how do I regulate what they can get and what
> they cant?
*****
There's nothing they shouldn't get; how much they DO get can be based
on how much of it exists in any given prey animal--two heads might be
iffy but four legs should be fine. Two livers, I don't think so; one
heart, sure you bet.

If you are going to feed prey animals, feed them as they exist in
nature. That's where our oft recommended "80% meat, 10% organs, 10%
edible bone" comes from: prey animals. You truly don't have to make
this hard! Ma Nature has already sorted it out for you. Doesn't
matter if you feed bits--start at one end and feed through the
critter, however long it takes.

Are there any inedible parts?
*****
Offer them everything, let them decide. Two of my adult dogs eat
rabbit. One eats the intestines, the other doesn't. Oh well.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:01 pm ((PDT))

Courtenay,

Others have good suggestions! Also keep in mind that hunting season is
coming, so while it's all turkey necks and eggs right now, you may be able
to lay your hands on quantities of free venison later. Taxidermists have
been surprisingly helpful to me in that regard...

Best of luck to you!

Casey

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

Do you have a local freecycle group? Know any hunters? Fishermen? I would
ask for any meat from people who may be cleaning out their freezers. Inquire
at hunting lodges if any in your area. It may have been this group (not sure
I have so many) that we just had a topic on freezer emptying. Lots of hunters
do it before the new season to make room. Some have even said they feed them
meat that has been frozen for 4 years and is discolored--they also say it
won't hurt the dogs.

Freecycle (yahoo group) in your area may have people who would give you old
and freezer burned meat too. HTH! Tamatha ;)


In a message dated 7/11/2007 10:07:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca writes:

I found a local butcher near my house and if I call
him in advance, he gives me free meat scraps/bones.
I can't always identify what it is, but my dog sure
loves it.
Try looking around for an ethnic butcher who hates
wasting.
At least that way your dogs will be fed some great
meat other than just eggs and turkey necks.
I get goat meat, beef, pork. And the bones are great
too because there's big chunks of meat on them.
I try to shop there too (their prices for beef heart
are awesome!) for the other stuff like liver and
heart. I give them my business, they give me their
scraps!

I couldn't imagine what it would be like to have to
re-home your dogs and I seriously hope you don't, but
please try this before you even THINK about going back
to kibble!

Nathalie

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "eminemmmfan" hd_sheena@hotmail.com eminemmmfan
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

I'm in Canada, Southern BC. We're moving asap, but selling the place
may not be easy, and until then, things are super tight. I've never,
since beginning raw feeding, actually been OUT of meat. All I have
left is a few packs of liver, and thankfully, we have chickens, so
unlimited (well.. almost!) eggs. I've done freecycle before, and cause
it's such a small area, I don't usually get many replies, and alot of
them are a fair driving distance away. We shop below the border in
Oroville Washington. Craigslist closest to me is Kelowna, which is too
far to drive regularly. I will try to find butchers, but it's been
hard so far (I have tried. I will try harder!) Suggestions on where to
look?
How long can they go with eggs being the main "meat", plus scraps and
extras when/if I can get them? They've been on mostly eggs for about 2
weeks now with no ill effects. They got lots of eggs prior to this, so
their stools were used to the "richness".
Oh, and the LAST thing I want to do is rehome, but I figure it's gotta
be better than poisoning them. They are all 4 issues dogs, one is a
people aggressive idiot, one is a byb rescue who has NO idea what to
do when stressed (So he eats his tail.. hmm), one is a brain damaged
sweetheart who will randomly freak out and bite anyone nearby, and the
last is a recent rescue with NO house manners at all. Not likely I'd
find great homes for them.. but it's on my mind..
Thanks,
Courtenay

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:52 pm ((PDT))

On Jul 11, 2007, at 7:17 PM, eminemmmfan wrote:

> I'm in Canada, Southern BC. ....We shop below the border in
> Oroville Washington. Craigslist closest to me is Kelowna, which is too
> far to drive regularly. I will try to find butchers, but it's been
> hard so far (I have tried. I will try harder!) Suggestions on where to
> look?

Farmers! A lot of small farms will have extra animals, downed
animals, leftovers from butchering, unwanted young, extra chickens,
ducks, geese. Don't be afraid to tell anyone about your special needs
guys, and say that their meat diet is part of their treatment. And
find out who's doing their butchering, too. There may be field
butchers as well, who travel to the animals or hunt site. They'd be
glad to have you take away the garbage for them.

Freecyclers and Craigslisters will not necessarily live right in
Kelowna, but will be spread out all over, just as you are, so perhaps
you can find things nearer to you.

We have quite a few members in lower BC; perhaps they can take up a
collection for you and drive it out.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Trish Chapman" twotheark@verizon.net twotheark
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi Courtenay,
This is just my opinion.... but with dogs with issues, I would rather
"poison" them (if it comes to that), then rehome. So many people get rid of
their dogs when they become "inconvient" let alone have actual problems,
especially biting. To me, temporary "poisoning" is better than permanent
"put to sleep."

Trish

----- Original Message -----
From: "eminemmmfan" <hd_sheena@hotmail.com>

> Oh, and the LAST thing I want to do is rehome, but I figure it's gotta
> be better than poisoning them. They are all 4 issues dogs, one is a
> people aggressive idiot, one is a byb rescue who has NO idea what to
> do when stressed (So he eats his tail.. hmm), one is a brain damaged
> sweetheart who will randomly freak out and bite anyone nearby, and the
> last is a recent rescue with NO house manners at all. Not likely I'd
> find great homes for them.. but it's on my mind..
> Thanks,
> Courtenay

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

2f. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I'm so sorry you are in this situation. It must be very stressful.

I agree with the posters that there is no guarantee that your dogs
will be well taken care of if you rehome them and you might drive
yourself crazy thinking about them and wondering.

You may want to check if you have a local Community Supported
Agriculture group in your area (see http://www.localharvest.org/csa/).
Our local CSA group "pays" its volunteers in free food. This is
usually a vegetable share. But our group also sources organic
chicken, free-range turkey, and grass-fed beef and the "extras" on the
animals have been offered to me as a member for a very low price. You
could probably get some of these items (chicken feet, gizzards,
tongue, brain etc.) from a local CSA group in exchange for a few hours
of volunteer help (which can be anything from unloading the trucks to
editing the newsletter.) The organizer would probably be very
knowledgeable about other sources for "parts" either within the CSA
membership or its suppliers, as most CSA groups really hate waste and
like to see everything used or recycled.

Also check to see if there is a raw food buying coop in your area (I
found mine by joining the CarnivoreFeed-Supplier group affiliated with
this list and then searched the archives for my area.) They may also
be willing to trade you leftover or reduced-price product for
volunteer hours.

I do hope this situation is temporary and you are able to find a
workable solution for you and your dogs.

All the best,
Kerry
Tucson, AZ

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

"Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Not bitter, Silvina! Just cautious.
> After all, melamine was found in some farm fish food in this
country!
*****
That's because the fish food came from guess where.

Tilipia is farmed and yes, we have reason to be cautious about animal
feed made in China. It was clear from the reports that melamine in
animal chow made for use in China is not only present but common.

It has no special nutritional value and is not an Omega 3 fish.

However, in general freshwater fish (of which Tilipia is one) are
less polluted than cage-raised seawater fish, so it's got that going
for it.

Here's a recent link about the Chinese fishing industry.
<http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-
w/2007/feb/science/ee_chinesefish.html>
(be sure you copy the whole address)

Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:28 pm ((PDT))

> That's because the fish food came from guess where.
>
> Tilipia is farmed and yes, we have reason to be cautious about
animal
> feed made in China. It was clear from the reports that melamine in
> animal chow made for use in China is not only present but common.
>
> > >
> Here's a recent link about the Chinese fishing industry.
> <http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-
> w/2007/feb/science/ee_chinesefish.html>
> (be sure you copy the whole address)
>
> Chris O

Thanks for the links, Chris. Yes, I'm cautious when it says it's from
China. Melamine was used to help grow wheat, a practice that is legal
in China and illegal in the U.S. This poison ended up in wheat gluten
used as a protein source and thickening agent in pet food. Then there
was the rice gluten? It's cheap and they can then sell at a higher
cost at our pet's expense. Anyway, off the bully-pulpit, it got me on
raw and I'm loving it. I just can't get over the pugs white teeth!
People think I'm crazy when I just HAVE to show them Chunkie's
pearlies, lol.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Not bitter, Silvina! Just cautious.
> After all, melamine was found in some farm fish food in this country!
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey

Okay, actually mad :)

Silvina

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
Posted by: "Carrie Kelly" winencandy@yahoo.ca winencandy
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:03 pm ((PDT))

Ok, my new guy is eating chicken leg quarters great! I'm feeding him 3-
4 times a day. It's averaging about 1.5 to 2# a day.

I have a new puppy too - she only eats about 2 oz a day divided into 3-4 meals. (9 week Papillon)

He still has liquid poop! He's having to go anywhere from every one and
a half hours to maybe 3 hours tops. I know puppies go quite often, but
this seems excessive. He's had a total of two semi firm ones in the 6
days he's been here. He's acting normal... total puppy terror!

Same here, except that today (day 13) it was finally solid.

Do any of you, in all your wisdom, have any advice on firming his poop
up?

Wait it out - it will happen.

Carrie K

WinenCandy

---------------------------------
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
Posted by: "rottinluvr" rottinluv@cox.net rottinluvr
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:30 pm ((PDT))

OK, I think in the future, all I need to do is post here when I have a
problem, as they always seem to resolve as soon as I do!

Casino has been pooping firm all day. He's gone about 3 times... it has
had mucous, but at least it's firm!

Thank you all for your reassurance!

Leanne

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5. admin: Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Jane Anderson" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:11 am ((PDT))

Please take this discussion to raw chat of privately.

With thanks,

Jane
List Admin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6. BAD GIRL WILL ONLY EAT PORK :(
Posted by: "alliecaracleo" alliecaracleo@yahoo.com alliecaracleo
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:46 am ((PDT))

I love my ribs too but Allie will only eat country style ribs. I gave
for a few meals, then switch to chicken or turkey heart or gizzard and
she went on fast. I dont have any beef which she has never had and
wanted to use what is in freezer. I will buy some fish. Question is how
often is pork ok to eat? I understand variety concept for balance but
she loves her pork. Is it unhealthy for felines to consume pork
regularly?

Have a good one everyone
Denise

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. Spoiled meat
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:48 am ((PDT))

Hi,

I have a friend that started her dog on raw about 5 months ago. Her
dog is a 65 lb. hound. She doesn't use a computer, so I'm posting
this for her.

Her dog ate a large piece of green, slimy, smelly pork out of the
trash 3 weeks ago. She had thrown it out because it had started to
smell. Ever since, the dog has had loose stool, only clearing up with
chicken and bone. Whenever she feeds anything else, the loose stools
return.

She gets her meat from the same butcher that I do, so none of the meat
is enhanced. She still gives the dog two meals/day.

The dog can hold the stool, but it's like pudding with mucous.

One of my dogs ate a hamburger a couple months ago and it took a long
time for his stool to clear up.

Any advice for her on how to help her dog have normal stool again?
Thanks.

Candace and the 4 Collies for Heather and Minx

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:59 am ((PDT))

sorry I forgot to sign the long post on kidney disease etc.

Carol for spencer

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: labwork
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:59 am ((PDT))

For any questions about kidney failure and diet please contact the people at
K9KidneyDiet (yahoo groups). They've got all the info anyone needs on this
stuff. From my experience with a kidney failure dog and my involvement on
that list, BUN is typically higher for dogs on raw (the norms are based on
kibble dogs for the most part), but doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem.
If there IS a problem then protein isn't it (particularly highly digestible
protein). The challenge for raw only with a dog with kidney disease is that
it's hard to get enough calories into them while keeping the phosphorus low
(phosphorus being the culprit) with raw meat and especially bones. But that's
for dogs already diagnosed.

I thought I'd put my dog into renal failure by switching to raw just before
she was diagnosed. I'm trying to get over that one (not totally there yet).
I think I fed too many chicken backs and not enough meat and even may have
precipitated a pancreatic crisis (not ever diagnosed but after learning more
the symtpoms fit). But my new "old" guy seems to be doing fine on the raw
(2+ months at this point), so I'm giving it another try and maybe healing my
guilt as well.

p.s. That fasting thing.....oh my god....where do these vets get their
info???? Fasting (bloods before breakfast) is always the way to go. Especially
with BUN, there are so many levels that are affected by what the dogs eat and
drink that you'd never know what was going on if you drew any which way.
Same for us, btw, though the docs don't always tell us that.

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------