[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11791

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: EPI
From: K9FindM@aol.com
1b. Re: EPI
From: carlarae3

2a. Re: freezer emptying
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

3. Re: EPI ~~blood testing cheaper. . . maybe ;)
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

4a. Re: Allergy
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker
4b. Re: Allergy
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: Allergy
From: Casey Post

5a. Re: Black Lab in serious need of help
From: Dijana

6a. Re: New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia
From: emil smolensky
6b. Re: New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia
From: Andrea

7a. Newbie Wanting To Take the Jump
From: Cherie Ferebee
7b. Re: Newbie Wanting To Take the Jump
From: Andrea

8.1. allergies
From: Joanne Bartling

9. Chicken Backs and Turkey Chunks
From: lils_danes

10a. Re: Pork Ribs
From: Evie
10b. Re: Pork Ribs
From: Evie

11a. Re: What is "Trim"
From: Jen

12. Keeping it all clean
From: Marion LoPrinzi

13a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: costrowski75
13b. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: costrowski75

14a. ADMIN/Re: What's wrong with cooked?
From: costrowski75

15. Fly Issues
From: bellazoemom

16a. Re: What's wrong with cooked?
From: carnesbill

17a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
From: rottinluvr

18a. Digestion (was:Getting ready to take the plunge!)
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: EPI
Posted by: "K9FindM@aol.com" K9FindM@aol.com bctwister03
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:52 am ((PDT))

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Bryan Hoss <andreabryanhoss@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 9:30 pm
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: EPI

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, K9FindM@... wrote:
Did you have your dogs blood
tested?? And if so, what does it show?
>
> Maria

Yes, I had my dog's blood tested, and it was bloody expensive. The
test measures the concentration of trypsin, produced by the
pancreas. Laika measured at 2.0 = EPI. At the time, I too had her on
a "high quality" kibble (believe me when I tell you that feeding raw
is actually cheaper than what I was feeding my dog). When I started
giving her the Pancrezyme (pancreatic supplement), there was an
improvement; she went from brown water poop to cow patties. My vet
didn't know much about tweaking her diet other than recommending
Hills Science Diet -- even when I was a kibble feeder I wouldn't
give my dogs that crap. So, I found a holistic vet that
specialized in nutrition. She told me about feeding raw b/c of the
enzymes that are so desperately needed, but are gone from cooked
food. She did recommend veggies, and normally she encouraged grains,
but not with an EPI dog; their pancreas cannot handle any grains.
She actually recommended using sweet potato instead of grains. I
said "hmm" to that, got online to do more research, found this list,
started feeding prey model raw, 80% muscle meat, 10%edible bone, 10%
organ, supplement with salmon oil, no veggies or grains, and I have
cut her Pancrezyme by
1/3. I have an extremely healthy, Firm Poop Dog. My "regular" vet
is amazed; so am I!

Here are a couple more articles to look at. They are actually
published vet research papers,one of them gets technical, but it is
a good read.
>
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23404.htm
>

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?
CID=WSAVA2003&PID=6553&O=Generic

Also, has your dog been tested for inflammatory bowel disease or
small intestinal bacterial overgrowth? The symptoms are simmilar to
EPI.

-Andrea, Laika & Squirt
>
>

> >
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>

> >
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>

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: EPI
Posted by: "carlarae3" carladc2b@charter.net carlarae3
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:34 am ((PDT))

Maria, I sent this message yesterday and it didn't make it through.
Here it is again.

> OK - anyone on this list familiar with EPI??

Maria, I don't have personal experience with EPI, but I studied it a
while back when I had a dog with pancreatitis. There are a couple
yahoo groups that I found helpful, K9-Epiglobal and K9Enzymes. EPI
dogs don't make the enzymes they need, so the enzyme group is a great
source to purchase a high quality enzyme.
HTH Carla

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: freezer emptying
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:15 am ((PDT))

Wonderful news! Thanks, Anne! :) Great to know. My mom knows a few
hunters where she lives and I am sure they would be glad to empty out their
freezers. My mom had a freezer full of venison awhile back that was 3-4 years old and
she finally dumped it. (My dad's stash after he passed). At the time we
didn't have a dog so it was of no use to me. I will make sure to tell her to
save anything she or anybody else doesn't want. ;)

Tamatha

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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3. Re: EPI ~~blood testing cheaper. . . maybe ;)
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:16 am ((PDT))

Andrea :) I am not sure what tests needed to be done (so I don't know if
this info below will help) but I do know that a few years ago when our 12 yr old
white german shepherd needed bloodwork (CBC and the works of additional
testing), I sent it off to Dr. Dodd in CA. I remember our vet even saying that her
testing was more extensvie than her own labs and the results she would trust
and was even cheaper too.

So if you need to ever have it done again, you might give Dr. Dodd a try.
The vet takes the blood and you wrap the vials accodring to the instructions
given in the kit from Dr. Dodd (or online info--I can't remember as it has been a
few years) and then just fed ex to CA. The results are back within a few
days. I couldn't believe how easy it was and how much cheaper--and MORE
extensive. :) Don't know if this will help anyone but thought I would share the info
in case.

Tamatha :)

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Allergy
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:17 am ((PDT))

> I rather want to stop giving the yoghurt with Viyo and see what
happens from there.
>
> Does anyone has good advise ?
>
> Thanks,
> Tinne
>
Tinne,
I think that is a very good idea! (And, by the way, allergies CAN show
up right away.) I would go back to feeding "one source" meals, ie.
just chicken. Add other meats after 3-4 wk periods, one at a time. If
it is allergy to a certain meat, you will be able to tell which one.
If it is an allergy to the "other stuff" it will go away with no
exposure to the source. Sometimes it takes a while to get the allergen
out of the system, so watch your dog carefully. I did this with my
youngest dog and had great results eliminating the offender.
Good luck,
Penny & The Menagerie

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Allergy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:03 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tinne" <marc.gemis@...> wrote:
>

> Does anyone has good advise ?
>

Tinne,
If you suspect your dog has a food allergy (not likely) then an
elimination diet is called for but horse meat is not necessary.
Here is what you do.

Pick out one protein source. It's not critical what it is but just
feed one. For our example, lets use chicken. Feed nothing but
chicken for 2 months. Nothing goes in the dogs mouth that does not
come from the body of a chicken. No treats, no nothing.

At the end of two months one of two things will happen. Either the
allergy is gone or its not. If its gone, gradually add back in one
new protein source every two weeks until the problem comes back
again. The last added source is probably the culprit.

If the allergy is still there, change the diet to anything EXCEPT
chicken for 2 months. Again, there will be one of two possible
results. Either the dog will still have symptoms or he won't. If
he doesn't have symptoms, he is allergic to chicken. If he still
has symptoms, he does not have a food allergy.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: Allergy
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:22 am ((PDT))

> The allergy started *I think* when I started to give him yoghurt with Viyo
> (a new drink for
> dogs on the market) some 2 weeks ago. I told it to the vet, but she said
> that 2 week period is
> too short to see an allergy.
>
> I rather want to stop giving the yoghurt with Viyo and see what happens
> from there.

Tinne,

I think that you need to trust yourself on this one!

Stop the yoghurt and Viyo (I looked it up, but couldn't find an ingredient
list) and see what happens.

Allergy symptoms can show immediately, of course. I have no idea where your
vet gets the idea that they cannot...

Casey

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: Black Lab in serious need of help
Posted by: "Dijana" dpopovic@gmail.com dpopovicmsc
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:19 am ((PDT))

There is a booklet out called "Stress in Dogs" by Martina Scholz and
Clarissa Von Reinhardt. I suggest that in addition to the diet
change, they get this book, read it and assess Clyde's daily
stressors (daily routine, the household dynamics, etc). Things like
itchy skin, hair falling out, loose stools and bad wind are all very
typical symptoms of a stressed dog. <Honestly, a diagnosis
like "allergy to dust mites" kind of sounds ridiculous to me, they
could test it by keeping Clyde outside for couple days without
changing anything else and see if his condition improves, which I
doubt.>

Cheers,
Dijana

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Gavin Gunn" <meganhayleyfinn@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear All
>
> I have a friend who has a 3 year old black lab called Clyde. His vet
> has diognosed his condition as being allergic to house dust mites.
>
> Clyde has over the last 10 months developed very severe itchy skin
> which causes the dog to pull out its own fur from its legs and
feet.
> He has also been left with white rings around its eyes where hair
has
> fallen out naturally, which has obviously caused major stress to
both
> the dog and his owners.
>
> Clyde also has extremely loose stools and bad wind.
>
> The vet has put Clyde on steroids of which Clyde is now very bloated
> and listless. (may or may not have anything to do with the
steroids).
>
> He has also been to Newmarket specialists who treated him with
steroid
> drugs, eye drops, ear drops, medicated shampoos/sprays, and a Pro
Plan
> diet for itchy skin.
>
> This condition has so far been treated for approximately 10 months.
>
> The dogs diet originally consisted of Country Persuit (dry), which
> then changed to Pro Plan by the vet. The owner has recently changed
> to Walfcol (Vegetarian) because the other food was too expensive
(£60
> per bag approx). The vet recommended this Walfcol diet.
>
> The owners of the dog are seriously concerned, particularly as they
> have seen Clyde deteriorate slowly over time and think time might be
> running out for their pet who is still a young dog.
>
> Will a change to raw feeding help here? Obviously any advice here
is
> both urgent, essential, and above all appreciated.
>
> On behalf of Clydes owners
>
> Gavin Gunn
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia
Posted by: "emil smolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:20 am ((PDT))

Hi Gabriella,
I would love to help you out to translate almost anything you need into russian.
my wifes parents live in Nachabino, is that anywhere close to you.
I don't live there, i live in baltimore, md. Of course my wife has better russian speaking skills than me, but I'll try andf if i don't know something I can ask my wife.

----- Original Message ----
From: grajnai <grajnai@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:27:31 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia

Hi and thank you for reading my post.

My name is Gabriella and we brought home our puppy (3 month old )
bullmastiff about 3 weeks ago..

Since than everyday Im reading this forum (and the puppy raw
feeding forum) and I found lot s of advices which helps me a lot but
I still have lots of questions. Im new on raw feeding and getting a
little bit confused.

The first week I followed what the breeder gave him (grains,
yoghurt, meat).

The second and third week I followed what my vet recommended ( he is
supporting partially the Raw feeding âEUR" saying no beef bones, only
maybe ribs, chicken bones except the weight bearing drumstick ) 1/3
of beef meat, 1/3 of beef heart, 1/3 of pig ears. Also he suggested
to ad triple and liver (1/5 part of all day food of each)

Right now he gets 0,66 lb (300gr) beef meat, the same amount beef
heart and pig ears. This is not the usual 80% meat, 10% organs, 10%
bones ratio. This pig ears, probably does not count as meat part..?

Im going to start chicken back and quarters soon. Can I give him
chicken wings? They are so tiny compare with the mouth of my puppy,
He would swallow them in one gulp � ) Should I give him one week
chicken, then this meat-heart-ear- triple-liver mix? Then introduce
pork, lamb?

Also I give him one teaspoon of fish oil and olive oil, 1 teaspoon
of grinded eggshells, one Calci D tablet and a supplement called SA
37 Intervet.

Also he gets Calcii glycheroposhpatis (800mg=0.028 ounce) per day
and Calcii Gluconatis (3.0gr =0.105 ounce) Should I give him all of
those? Is it good? Bad? (One vet say yes, the other one no)

The dog is active, happy, good poop. But his fur is coming out. I
donâEURTMt know, its normal? Maybe all those supplements? I read
somewhere puppies cant handle extra calcium.. (or the calcium
nothing to do with the fur probably?) Sometimes I have a feeling, if
its continues, he will be bold. It started on his tail, When I
stroke the dogâEURTMs back, at the end some fur is collecting and coming
out. Should I brush the dog? The breeder told me to give him olive
oil. But it seems to me this is not the solution.

What should I give to make the fur ok? He also gets one whole egg
per week with shells, he cracks it by himself (very funny �. Can be
that this feeding meat-heart-pig ears cause trouble?

We live in the forest and he is munching a lot on everything. Tree
bush, small tree pieces, brunches (lol my daughter said, he eats
pretty much everything on his path �, eats grass sometimes like a
cow. Every one around me says he is hungry.

But the vet told me he has some extra weight (right now he is 24
kg=53lb) so he gets almost 900gr- 1kg of food (aprox 2.0 lb per day)
If the ideal weight of a growing up bullmastiff is 60kg (132 pound)
he is eating less than 2%.

Does bullmastiff count as a giant breed? Like an English mastiff?

Should I feed him more or less? I donâEURTMt have a clue. His front
fingers are not âEURoekept� together, but they are âEURoeshowing in four
directions�. The vet told me its because of his weight. His back
leg (paw) I think itâEURTMs in a little lower position than it suppose to
be. ( I donâEURTMt want him to be a show dog, all I want him to be
healthy)

Even if we live in the forest, he moves probably more than a dog who
is living in apartment but I would like to walk with him an hour a
day. But this legs.. can I walk with him? Is it not going to be so
hard on him? He needs to build muscles, but can I ruin his legs with
walking? Yesterday we walked first time about half an hour. He
enjoyed, he was tired but I think his back legs got even lower.

Here in Moscow most of the vets buy his dog out of the country. The
breeders not really responsible so the whole dog and puppy situation
is very tricky. Hard to find a totally healthy puppy. Our previous
dog, rescued mastiff, had very hard dysplaxia (we did two times
surgery) and he died of cancer). I want this puppy to raise as
healthy as possible.

Sorry about my English and the long message. But here no one to ask,
the kibble was introduced couple of years ago into this country and
pretty much everyone is exited about it :(. One more question âEUR" is
anyone on this forum from Russia? Russian is not my first language
and I have a hard time to explain to the butcher what I want �

Thank you again and hoping for your advices

Gabriella and Bridge (thatâEURTMs the dog �

____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367

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Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))

Hi, Gabriella, congrats on your new little one!

> The second and third week I followed what my vet recommended ( he
> is supporting partially the Raw feeding saying no beef bones, only
> maybe ribs, chicken bones except the weight bearing drumstick ) 1/3
> of beef meat, 1/3 of beef heart, 1/3 of pig ears. Also he suggested
> to ad triple and liver (1/5 part of all day food of each)

That's pretty complex, but at least you have a vet who does support
you, even if it is only partially. I agree with no beef bones except
for ribs. Chickens aren't heavy enought to really have dense bones
even on the drumstick. I feed chicken with all its bones. All other
mentioned items are good food items, too.

> Right now he gets 0,66 lb (300gr) beef meat, the same amount beef
> heart and pig ears. This is not the usual 80% meat, 10% organs,
> 10% bones ratio. This pig ears, probably does not count as meat
> part..?

That menu is pretty much all meat. Heart is considered a muscle meat
for raw feeding purposes, and the ears are cartilage and skin -
things that also fall into the "meat" category. Are his stools ok or
are they mushy? Eating meaty meals can cause dark soft stools, which
isn't a problem, just don't get worried about them. If his stools
are ok with this, you can go on and add in chicken, otherwise, you
might want to put the meats in the freezer for now and switch over to
the chicken quarters.

> Im going to start chicken back and quarters soon. Can I give him
> chicken wings? They are so tiny compare with the mouth of my puppy,
> He would swallow them in one gulp

Feed wings if they are still attached to the rest of the chicken
quarter. It would be far too tempting for a mastiff puppy to swallow
a lone wing whole.

> Should I give him one week chicken, then this meat-heart-ear-triple-
> liver mix? Then introduce pork, lamb?

Once you add in chicken, wait until his stools are ok before moving
on to another meat (usually a week or so). After he's ok with
chicken and beef, you can add whichever meat you want after. After
he has gotten used to a variety of meats, you don't have to follow
any set schedule, just keep in mind that over time you want to feed
mostly meat, some bone, and some organ.

> Also I give him one teaspoon of fish oil and olive oil, 1 teaspoon
> of grinded eggshells, one Calci D tablet and a supplement called SA
> 37 Intervet.

I'd say keep the fish oil, and the rest isn't really needed. He'll
be getting his calcium from raw bones, so he doen't need eggshells or
calcium supps. Unless he has a medical issue, he shouldn't need
anything except for maybe some fish oil.

> Also he gets Calcii glycheroposhpatis (800mg=0.028 ounce) per day
> and Calcii Gluconatis (3.0gr =0.105 ounce) Should I give him all
> of those? Is it good? Bad? (One vet say yes, the other one no)

I'm not sure about if it is bad, but I doubt they are doing any
good. Unless the vet as a real reason to keep using them ("Just to
supplement" isn't a good reason), don't use them.

> The dog is active, happy, good poop. But his fur is coming out. I
> don't know, its normal? Maybe all those supplements?

If it doesn't seem like a normal shed, I'd discontinue use of all
supplements right away. I'm not familiar with mastiffs, so I'm not
sure how much they shed as puppies, but my Newf mix sheds like crazy,
and I sometimes wonder if he'll go bald as well (=

> What should I give to make the fur ok? He also gets one whole egg
> per week with shells,

Eggs and fish oil are good for making coats and skin healthier, so if
he digests the egg well, it sounds like a good idea. If you brush
him every night, you might find that it is just normal shedding. Is
he itching himself at all? Does it seem like his skin is bothering
him?

> But the vet told me he has some extra weight (right now he is 24
> kg=53lb) so he gets almost 900gr- 1kg of food (aprox 2.0 lb per
> day) If the ideal weight of a growing up bullmastiff is 60kg (132
> pound)he is eating less than 2%.

2% is a starting point, he might need more or less. It is best to go
by the look of the dog. Can you see his last two ribs? If he has a
long coat, feel his ribcage, you should be able to feel the ribs
underneath without too much pressure. If there is a lot of padding
there, you can keep the amount you feed, if you can *really* feel or
see all of the ribs, add more food. You don't want a fat puppy with
all the growing he has to do.

> Does bullmastiff count as a giant breed? Like an English mastiff?

Yes, I'd consider them a giant breed, but dogs is dogs, and you don't
have to change anything for him. Just make sure you don't get him
too fat, and stop the calcium supplements and he'll grow just fine.

> I would like to walk with him an hour a day. But this legs.. can I
> walk with him? Is it not going to be so hard on him? He needs to
> build muscles, but can I ruin his legs with walking?

I've always heard that you don't want to over exercise large breed
puppies. I don't know if it's true, but I try not to overdo it with
my Newf pup. He still needs exercise, but you can take him on
several small walks a day so it isn't all at once.

It sounds like you are well on the way to raising a healthy pup! If
you have more questions, don't hesitate, ok? Good luck

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Newbie Wanting To Take the Jump
Posted by: "Cherie Ferebee" oceanbaylabradors@yahoo.com oceanbaylabradors
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:35 am ((PDT))

Hello To All!
I am a newbie with lots to learn! I currently have 5 labradors (Sandi, Kate, Journey, Clay, & Lukas) in my pack. I also have a rescued Fox Hound (Lillyann), and a Shih tzu (Sadie) who swears she is a Lab (Even swims and retrieves pheasants!). We live in Sussex County Delaware on the Eastern Shore. I was born and raised in Northhampton County Virginia and still go down there often. I have been raised feeding kibble to my dogs since I was a child. Now that I am almost grown up (20 years old) and have dogs that I own, I am doing much more research than my father ever did. When he raised dogs with his family, they fed kibble, scraps, and animal carcasses after they went hunting. Their dogs were working dogs, bred and raised for hunting, and a couple of companion dogs. Now, I raise labradors. We train in agility, rally, therapy work. My dogs are pretty much my life (The only thing that comes before them is my faith). I work to feed and take care of them. I have
been researching different diets, and while I have been feeding the same kibble (an all natural, high quality kibble) I have been doing a lot of thinking on switching to raw. I have many questions, and I am sorry in advance if they are topics that have already been covered.

Your NEW Raw Buddy,
Cherie
Oceanbay Labradors
www.labzofsussex.com

____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

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Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Newbie Wanting To Take the Jump
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))

Welcome to the group! Don't worry about asking redundant questions,
that's what we are here for! You can also read through the archives if
you have some spare time or need quick answers. Since there are soo
many posts in there, using the search is hit and miss unless you really
know what you are looking for. But for basic questions, I would say go
back 1 week in the archives and start reading. All the basics are
covered lots of times from week to week. If you have specific
questions, fire away!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cherie Ferebee
<oceanbaylabradors@...> wrote:
>
> I have been doing a lot of thinking on switching to raw. I have
> many questions, and I am sorry in advance if they are topics that
> have already been covered.

Messages in this topic (2)
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8.1. allergies
Posted by: "Joanne Bartling" hjbartling@comcast.net hjbartling
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:36 am ((PDT))

Does anyone know if there are separate allergy symptoms when it's
environmental vs. food?

We've been doing raw now for a couple of months. (when I say raw.....we've
been raw for a year now, but it wasn't until approx. 2 months ago that we
went to raw human food. Everything seems to be going great. We've been doing
chicken, pork, beef, some organs, one to two days a week we do, do the
pre-mix, as I work during meal time and my husband is more comfortable with
the mix. So....they've also had pheasant, duck, rabbit, and lamb/venison
meals.

My problem....one of my beagles has suddenly started with allergy
symptoms....constant sneezing, reverse sneezing (a beagle thing), and
scratching at her belly. Her belly is red and scratched. When I say
suddenly.....I do mean suddenly. We were down the shore and that night....it
was constant sneezing. All night long! We came home on Sunday and it has
persisted. I'm figuring it's something seasonal, but....I wonder if anyone
knows if there are any symptoms that differentiate between seasonal and
food?

Joanne

http://www.pbase.com/hjbartling

http://hjbartling.dotphoto.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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9. Chicken Backs and Turkey Chunks
Posted by: "lils_danes" nickandnoel@aol.com lils_danes
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:54 am ((PDT))

For those interested, Miami Valley Poultry in Dayton, OH have chicken
necks (frozen or fresh)and they prefer to deliver but it would depend
on if you are within their delivery area. Chicken backs are .35 per
pound and turkey (pet) chunks are .25 per pound. That amount is more
than at Harrison, OH but not only do you not have to drive to harrison,
but they will deliver it to you home for that price. Not a bad deal
especially if you want 1000 lbs of pet chunks at once.

Lillian Jones

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10a. Re: Pork Ribs
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

Thanks for the replies Guys,
It's been about a week since they've had any organ, so I guess as
Rennee suggests, I'll add some organ tonight with the ribs.

Evie

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10b. Re: Pork Ribs
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Means alot.
:oD

Evie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon
<jonjeni777@...> wrote:
Up to you, and sounds like they are eating high on the hog, and lovin
it! You're doing a wonderful job, keep it up:)
> Jeni

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11a. Re: What is "Trim"
Posted by: "Jen" jboydmorin@gmail.com choirgirl_21
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:12 am ((PDT))

> It's just plain old uncomplicated, unappreciated, generally inexpensive
> flesh, fat, connective tissue and simetimes even skin trimmed away from
> the stuff that's meant for "human" consumption.
> Venison trim from a busy or careless butcher can be a major socre in a
> raw feeder's life!
> Chris O
>

How else do people end up with trim (aside from what you trim off your
own meat at home)? Is this something people have had success getting
from local butchers? As a follow-up on my earlier question about my
dog's coats, I was thinking this might be a nice (free?) option to get
some extra fat into their diet.

On that note, I have noticed significant improvement with more regular
grooming so I think it's in large part due to the weather, but it also
dawned on me that I don't think I've been feeding quite enough organ
meat to my male so I'm going to increase that a bit in addition to
upping the fat a bit.

Jen

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12. Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "Marion LoPrinzi" mbldesigns@yahoo.com mbldesigns
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:22 am ((PDT))

Hi,

We've switched our indoor dogs, all 6 of them over to raw feeding and it's going great. I thought Bernie the 12.5 yo sheltie wouldn't be able to eat anything because we had to soak his dry food, but he is chewing his way right through the thighs and legs, though we do have to cut them into manageable pieces. Incredible the tartar is already starting to come off these aged teeth. We have 3 who are over 12yo and 3 between 6 and 8 yo.

I need help in how to keep everything clean. We have linoleum floors and I was mopping with vinegar and water, but wasn't sure if that was good enough so I have switched over to bleach and water. The bleach is quite harsh on me, I get migraines real easily. Is the vinegar water enough? Or not really? What do you use? I tried Lysol kitchen spray but that won't work with my head, yuck. I can't feed the dogs outside, that won't work, they have their self designated eating spots and don't want to move even a foot away.

Then since we're going through about 100 lbs of chicken a week, I need to figure out how to best keep everything clean. Should I dedicate a cutting board strictly to be used for the dogs' chicken? I'm trying to clean everything super well, but the cutting board still seems slimy and I don't know if I'm getting the dishes well enough. We don't have a dishwasher, other than my 2 hands. I use Ajax antibacterial soap and a copper scouring pad to get the crud off, then wash with the dishcloth. I use this same dishcloth for our dishes. Is that a nono?

OK, you're probably wondering why would I be so concerned. Well my husband is just getting better from 4 days home extremely sick in bed with food poisoning. He and I ate all the same things, but he cuts up the chicken because he has the strength to get through the bones (we have 2 dogs who swallow whole pieces, yikes). We wash our hands well, but something obviously didn't get washed properly, or maybe something got splashed. So I need help and recommendations.

Thank you in advance for everything,
Marion

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:49 am ((PDT))

"Angela Brown" <irisbarbata@...> wrote:
>
> There are plenty of raw feeders in the mastiff community as well as
> raw mastiff breeders that would agree with me and I feel confident in
> their knowledge and experience on this topic. I am not talking about
> out of control growth but controlled growth. You can give "too much"
> protein to a mastiff puppy, of this I am certain. If you don't believe
> me then look into it. An example would be giving too much red meat
> like beef.
*****
Angela, I can only hope you are basing your convictions on faulty data
provided by kibble manufacturers who profit every single time you buy a
product that is less meat protein and more carbohydrate or--more
recently--vegetable protein. Otherwise, there's just no explanation
for your statements.

A wolf--our dogs whether they are chihuahuas or Mastiffs--rely on
nutrition from protein and fat. That's it. They have no nutritional
requirement for carbohydrates. If you reduce meat protein and replace
it with carbs you are not only cheating pups of essential nutrition,
you are loading them up with unhealthy substitutes. Toy breed pups and
large breed pups equally need meat protein.

You can abuse meat protein by feeding more food than the pup can
digest, which results in digestive distress like loose stools; you can
feed more food that the pup needs for optimal nutrition, which results
in fat puppies.

In both cases, reducing the amount of food fed is the correct
response. Reducing meat protein is not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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13b. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))

"Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>>
> I hesitate to take up list space to post this info again, but here it
> is.....
>
*****
Thank you for doing so.
Perhaps you might put this post in the RF files for future reference.
Chris O

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14a. ADMIN/Re: What's wrong with cooked?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:58 am ((PDT))

Please let us remember this list is about feeding raw food to dogs,
cats and ferrets. Other mammals, in this regard, must fend for
themselves. Take this topic to RawChat or private. Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

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15. Fly Issues
Posted by: "bellazoemom" bellazoemom@yahoo.com bellazoemom
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

We have only been feeding raw for 2 days and there is a new swarm of
black flies. Brinks sometimes leaves pieces in the yard and there are
flies EVERYWHERE. When I tried to feed him breakfast..they swarmed his
food and were on him. It's so gross. Have any of you dealt wth this and
how do I solve this problem?

Thanks
Jessica

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16a. Re: What's wrong with cooked?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>
> We live to a little more than five in some cases, before
> starting our
> gradual decline into a slow death from inappropriate diet.

Once reaching maturity EVERY species begins a gradual decline to end
in death regardless of diet. It's a process that can't be changed.
It is the way the world is.

> What in
> your background would justify saying that dogs are meant to
> eat raw,
> but humans, who have also been around for the same tens
> of thousands
> of years, are not?

Logic, reason, and common sense. Look at the digestive system. It
can be argued that man is not meant to eat meat at all. (I am not
among those that would argue that but I will argue that man is not
meant to eat raw meat and there is no indication that he ever has.)

> We've survived all right, but just long enough to
> reproduce on our crappy cooked foods, staggering along as a race
> through the centuries because of bad choices made by our
> big brains.

Species in the condition you describe go extinct pretty quickly.
Seems our population is thriving and expanding probably at too great
a rate to be sustainable.

> One can not only imagine, but even experience, the same
> changes in
> health from diet as we see in our animals. So, cut out the
> kibble and
> the drugs for yourself, too, and see where it gets you...

I strongly it would only get us to an early grave.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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17a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
Posted by: "rottinluvr" rottinluv@cox.net rottinluvr
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))

Ok, my new guy is eating chicken leg quarters great! I'm feeding him 3-
4 times a day. It's averaging about 1.5 to 2# a day.

He still has liquid poop! He's having to go anywhere from every one and
a half hours to maybe 3 hours tops. I know puppies go quite often, but
this seems excessive. He's had a total of two semi firm ones in the 6
days he's been here. He's acting normal... total puppy terror!

Do any of you, in all your wisdom, have any advice on firming his poop
up?

Thanks,
Leanne

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18a. Digestion (was:Getting ready to take the plunge!)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:06 am ((PDT))

Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:

> People presumed that I mix the two in the same meal. I don't. This
is not a Kibble v. Raw issue…just a pragmatic question that lots of
people making the switch seem to have (though perhaps for different
reasons).
*****
This is not as complicated as you make it. If you cannot do the best,
do what you have to do. I don't have to like it and your dogs do not
necessarily have to benefit from your decisions. But it's nobody's biz
but yours.

However, this list--again--is not here to justify or even excuse the
presence of kibble. The charter of the Rawfeeding list is to enable
people to feed species appropriate raw food to dogs, cats and ferrets.
Kibble is not raw.
Chris O

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