[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11789

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
From: alluponjanice
1b. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
From: succeed_2
2b. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
2c. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
From: carnesbill

3. How much bones?
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow

4. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy Chris O.
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

5a. Re: Small Dogs, Frozen Food
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

6a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Angela Brown
6b. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Angela Brown
6d. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: carnesbill
6e. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Laurie Swanson
6f. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Concerned about food getting all over fur on face and ears
From: delcaste

8a. Re: Pork Ribs
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

9.1. Re: Rabit Meat
From: delcaste

10a. Re: What's wrong with cooked?
From: carnesbill
10b. Re: What's wrong with cooked?
From: ginny wilken

11. Re: freezer emptying
From: Michael Moore

12. Digestion (was:Getting ready to take the plunge!)
From: Lori Poirier

13a. Allergy
From: tinne

14. New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia
From: grajnai

15. Black Lab in serious need of help
From: Gavin Gunn

Messages
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1a. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
Posted by: "alluponjanice" alluponjanice@yahoo.com alluponjanice
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
I have saints and the info i got has me doing 4lbs a day
per dog .the meat, organs and bone ratio is what your saying. I just
like to be sure. also their stool is firm so i guess Im ok!
Thanks Christian

Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:07 pm ((PDT))

Pork, beef, lamb, fish, emu, goat...anything with little to no bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ" <luvthisphysique@yahoo.com>

> what would you recommend as far as eating tons of
> meat? your response would be much appreciated. thank
> you

Messages in this topic (8)
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1c. Re: what is correct amount of food to feed
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alluponjanice"
<alluponjanice@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@> wrote:
> I have saints and the info i got has me doing 4lbs a day
> per dog .

Christian,
Feed whatever amount you want to. 4lbs seems a little high but feed
that if you wish. In a few weeks or a couple of months your dogs
will either gain or lose weight or stay the same. If they gain too
much, feed less ... if they loose weight, feed more ... if they stay
the same, feed the same. :) Its as simple as that.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
Posted by: "succeed_2" succeed_2@yahoo.com succeed_2
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Julian1013@... wrote:
>
> when I calculate out a months budget for the food, switching to raw
> would almost double the cost, and I've been told if done properly
> it's not supposed to be a whole lot more expensive. Am I shopping
> wrong?

Maybe this will help:

Finding Cheaper Sources of Meat -
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134053

Lis

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:47 am ((PDT))

Julian,
I know for me, I have 2 great danes, and a pomchi, she's our newest addition, and a cat.
So, for the longest time, I have been buying in bulk, and large amounts, anything that is on sale, or cheap, or freezer burnt, and so on. I also belong to raw feeder groups that do group buys, and to freecycle groups.
For me, it has been cheaper, because I have two GIANT breed dogs, that normally would eat upwards of 8 cups of dry kibble plus a day each, and that is expensive, if done right when you care about your dogs. And that isn't even including the pomchi and the cat.
I switched to raw so the danes could outlive thier normal life expectancy which in my book is NEVER long enough.
I have also had dogs from chi's to Rotty's. They have had problems from allergies to Cancer.
For my buck, the raw diet has alreay paid for itself.
I don't have vet visits except to confirm my dogs are healthy. And they get weighed. And a treat. (and Zeus pee's on the vets floor, and I think that's funny, since Zeus pee's on everything)
I don't have to pay for allergy shots, teeth cleanings, newfangled shampoos, special flea dips, special shampoos to make the coat healthy, things to suppliment for vitamins that the food isn't giving them, ( I used to give all kinds of vitamins and suppliments) my dogs don't have any health issues for now, and I'm doing my best to keep it that way. I'm not saying this is perfect, but for me and mine, it's pretty darn close to the cat's meow:) And the breath smells nice too:) And don't forget there is a lot less POOP, even in kitties, so maybe less litter too:)
So, there is where I don't spend my money.
Now, I do spend it on about $1 or less a pound on whatever looks like meat with or without bones. Look for sales, and watch for adds, tell your friends and family that you'll take all their freezer food that is burnt, and any leftover old kill from hunters and so on.... it becomes a mission, and it even gets fun.
As far as the cats, your fantastic four, I only have the one, and he is being my stuborn silly sassy, well you know, and he won't switch over completely for me, but whatever you feed the dog, you can feed the cat, I'm told. Chicken, and fish and so on. And since you buy for the dog, what's a few more pounds of chicken, on that scale, not too much, now if you were buying the dog lobster, this could get expensive. My dogs don't do fish, at all, and the cat only likes the tuna. So. It's up to you what you can find and get at a deal and what you choose to feed. It doesn't have to be elaborate or high on the hog so to speak. I even hear you can get mice online for the kitties, in some neighborhoods, you might be able to train your own kitties to hunt their own food:) Mine is very lazy, and won't hunt the remote, but nonetheless, we're working on him.:)
Anyway, it doesn't have to be expensive, it can be really cheap. Also, you might want to get a little freezer. It's fun for us, here in California and meat ain't cheap here, it's a challenge! I even look at roadkill a whole new way, but they tell me that's illegal here:( and my husband says with my luck I'd get caught, sooo, goodluck and happy hunting!
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Raw Feeding Without Breaking the Bank
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:48 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Julian1013@... wrote:
>
> Am I shopping wrong?

Kasey,
I buy a lot of my food in bulk from a small independent grocery
store who special orders them for me. He makes a very small markup
because he doesn't have to handle the food at all. Just unload it
off the truck and ill be there shortly to pick it up. He just adds
my order to his regular meat order. I get chicken quarters from
Walmart for 43 cents/lb. I get old meat from hunter friends and
friends just cleaning out their freezer. Freezer burned meat is ok
to feed your dogs.

Don't worry, it takes a few months to learn how to shop for raw
meats.

I have cats and they get two chicken drumsticks most days. About 3
days a week they get beef or venison or pork or whatever I feed the
dogs. I can't help you with amounts as my cats catch a lot of food
outside. Tonight one of my cats drug in one of the biggest
squirrels I have ever seen. It was almost as big as he was. ;) I'm
not 100% sure it was a squirrel as it was raining and it was wet as
well as partially eaten. :) Oh well, I'll bet thats more
information than anyone wanted. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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3. How much bones?
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi, I'm new to the group and the whole raw feeding thing, but i was
wondering...

how much raw boney meats i should give my bichon frise (weighs about
17lbs)?

and avoid the bloody mouth syndrome? (keep all the blood of his white
fur)

i gave him a chicken leg in the morning and at night. would this be
enough?

where do you get your meats? i was thinking maybe i should go to costco,
albertson, nob hill kinda places. would this be efficient or would whole
foods be better? Would whole foods be more expensive than the other
stores? and do i have to ask for the meats like the neck and ribs or
would they have it on display? How much do you pay for the meats?

please help!!! comments and messages would be greatly appreciated.

-kate h.

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4. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy Chris O.
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:39 pm ((PDT))

Chris O, don't you have a website too? I thought I remembered it from
yesterday's emails and now I can't seem to find it. I am new. Forgive me if i am
mistaken or if it is in my face--lol!--I just can't see it

Thanks!


Tamatha


Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Small Dogs, Frozen Food
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:39 pm ((PDT))

Thanks so much, thats good to know for me, I'm so used to feeding the Giants around here (great danes and sibblings) but now we have Daisy, our little pomchi:)
And I'm happy to say, thanks to everyones suggestions here, and tinyingit down.. way down, she has been very taken with the raw diet. And she thinks she is somewhat of a Rotty when she eats really fast for a pomchi! So, I will make really sure her food is good and room temp before she eats it. Again, so sorry for your having to experience your education the way you did, but so glad you spred the knowledge, we all learn from it really fast and so good.
Thanks for telling us all about it.
Jeni

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6a. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Angela Brown" irisbarbata@yahoo.com irisbarbata
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:47 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

There are plenty of raw feeders in the mastiff community as well as
raw mastiff breeders that would agree with me and I feel confident in
their knowledge and experience on this topic. I am not talking about
out of control growth but controlled growth. You can give "too much"
protein to a mastiff puppy, of this I am certain. If you don't believe
me then look into it. An example would be giving too much red meat
like beef.
Angie Brown
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> The studies show otherwise. It is *not* protein that causes out of
control
> growth....in fact, it is just the opposite. You will have issues by
> reducing protein! Species appropriate does not change depending
upon breed!
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (15)
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6b. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:18 pm ((PDT))

I have looked into it and base my assertions on facts rather than the
nonsense that has been passed down on the large breed lists. Believe me,
been there, done that! Studies show that reducing protein in large breed
(or any growing puppy) is harmful, in fact is detrimental to growth and
health.

If you don't feed meat, what is the replacement? Bone? Grains?
Carbohydrates? All of which will produce inappropriate growth...prey model
is perfect. You cannot do any better.

Controlled growth is a result of feeding appropriately which is prey model.
And that means lots of meat, a little bone and organs. You cannot feed too
much red meat, regardless of what they say!

I hesitate to take up list space to post this info again, but here it
is.....

www.pedigreebreeder.com.au
"Protein nutrition is obviously still not completely understood, however it
is an essential part of every dog's diet. You can't give too much protein in
your dog's diet; however quality not quantity makes the difference."

www.purina.com

"Dietary protein requirements are much higher for growing puppies than
for fully grown dogs. In addition to supplying the protein needed to support
protein turnover and normal cellular metabolism, protein is needed to build
growing muscles and other tissues."
"Research at the Purina Pet Care Center and at other facilities has
shown that puppies fed inadequate protein do not grow as well and are more
susceptible to health problems than those fed nutritionally complete diets.
At the Pet Care Center, English setter puppies that were fed a low-protein
diet showed stunted growth compared to puppies fed higher levels of protein.
However, when the protein level was increased in the puppies at the Pet Care
Center, the deficiency was corrected."
"Concern about protein causing developmental bone problems in
large-breed puppies has led some breeders to reduce the amount of protein
they fed. However, in research published in 1993 based on studies of Great
Dane puppies at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, it was shown that
dietary protein does not contribute to these problems."
"Herman A. Hazewinkel, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine
at Utrecht University, led the research that found no detrimental effects
from protein levels up to 32 percent of the diet. However, puppies fed a
diet of only 15 percent protein showed evidence of inadequate protein
intake."
"Too low protein decreases the growth rate of puppies and also their
immunological response," Hazewinkel says. "This is true for large- and
small-breed puppies. An adequate protein level should be higher than 15
percent."
"This study, conducted in young Great Danes during their first
half-year of life, concluded that dietary protein increased to 32 percent
does not negatively affect skeletal or cartilage development in these dogs.
The research also confirmed that dietary protein did not have detrimental
effects on liver and kidney functioning."
So the conclusion of the above referenced research stresses the need
for high quality protein to achieve the best growth and immune systems. No
proof was found that protein amounts affect skeletal growth in any adverse,
except when using too little or too poor quality.

www.eukanuba-eu.com

This article reiterates that high protein does not cause OCD or HD, in
either the hips or elbows:
Research into the growth of Great Danes (Nap RC, The Netherlands,) has
shown that the protein level of a diet has no significant influence on
skeletal development. High protein intake does not result in increased risk
for OCD or HD, and there is no effect on the development in the longitudinal
growth of the bone."
Additionally, while protein does not cause orthopedic problems, other
nutrients can.

www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu

"In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that
over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation
and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients
revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great
Danes (Ref. 2)."

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Angela Brown" <irisbarbata@yahoo.com>

There are plenty of raw feeders in the mastiff community as well as
raw mastiff breeders that would agree with me and I feel confident in
their knowledge and experience on this topic. I am not talking about
out of control growth but controlled growth. You can give "too much"
protein to a mastiff puppy, of this I am certain. If you don't believe
me then look into it. An example would be giving too much red meat
like beef.
Angie Brown
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> The studies show otherwise. It is *not* protein that causes out of
control
> growth....in fact, it is just the opposite. You will have issues by
> reducing protein! Species appropriate does not change depending
upon breed!

Messages in this topic (15)
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6c. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Angela Brown" irisbarbata@yahoo.com irisbarbata
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi Nath, Mastiff puppies really do best on a whole prey diet. Like
whole chickens with neck and liver, heart are great etc...I would love
to get more whole but it is very $ like rabbit, duck etc...nice RMBs
with some extra meat. Some give an only meat meal once a week. I give
green tripe. For organs I usually give liver, kidney etc..Sometimes
eggs but they can cause cannon butt if you give too many at once. Plus
in the wild eggs are seasonal. Whole fish is good, head and all is
best, I like under 6". A growing pup can eat up to 6 or 7 lbs a day at
the hight of it so if you get into a chicken back/neck rut for a
little while it's fine because it needs to get balanced out over time
but it's not good to get into a rut with something higher in protein
like beef for a long time. A good sign to pay better attention to
proteing ratio is when a pup really drastically shoots up in the read
and it's not common for that line. Variety really in the best. All
meats are good but say if you give only chicken legs that might be too
much meat to bone over a long period of time when feeding chicken. The
whole prey has a perfect ratio an we have to do our best to simulate
it correctly.
Angie Brown

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nathaliebiron" <nathaliebiron@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi everyone!!! Can you give me some advices. I'll have my mastiff
> puppy next year and I want to be ready !! Is somebody who have a giant
> breed, how did you start, what did you give your puppy (ex.: chicken
> neck, chicken leg... etc)
>
> Thank you so much
> Nath.
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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6d. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:47 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Brown" <irisbarbata@...>
wrote:

> You can give "too much"
> protein to a mastiff puppy, of this I am certain. If you
> don't believe
> me then look into it. An example would be giving too much red meat
> like beef.
> Angie Brown

Angie,
I have 2 Great Danes and I used to be in the same place you are
now. The Dane community is the same place as the Mastiff
community. A lot of folklore about too much protein for puppies.
Don't feed puppy food to puppies, etc.

However, I have raised a Great Dane puppy from 12 weeks to his
present 2 1/2 years and have done nothing special to his diet. From
the day he walked into my house, he ate the exact same diet as my
adult dogs (prey model raw of course). I now know several raw
feeding Dane breeders who ween thier puppies to raw. These puppies
don't have any growth related problems at all. The protein thing is
a myth. I have seen it myself. Of course you won't find a kibble
feeding breeder to agree with that but all raw feeding breeders
will. If you hang around this list long enough you will see giant
breed puppy after puppy on raw diets without growth problems.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (15)
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6e. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:48 am ((PDT))

Hi Angie,

Just want to clarify--if whole prey is best, then what do you mean
about being careful not to feed too much protein? Do you simply mean
people shouldn't feed meat only (no bone)? If that's all you're
saying, I'm sure no one here would disagree with that.

I don't see how chicken legs are too meaty, though.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Angela Brown" <irisbarbata@...>
wrote:
All
> meats are good but say if you give only chicken legs that might be
too
> much meat to bone over a long period of time when feeding chicken.
The
> whole prey has a perfect ratio an we have to do our best to simulate
> it correctly.
> Angie Brown
>
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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6f. Re: Feeding Giant breed puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:10 am ((PDT))

Yup, whole prey is perfect and in order to simulate it correctly, we need to
understand those ratios. Their normal prey is around 8-15% bone and all
bone is not necessarily consumable, so we are back to lots and lots of meat
(up to 80%), a little bone (approximately 10%) and the same amount of
organs.

You will not find any part of the chicken that is too much meat! Chicken
legs are too bony to be fed regularly. Red meat is by far the best and beef
is not high protein. Here are some numbers Chris posted a while back.....

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Some examples:
100g beef chuck
19% protein/62% water

100g pork shoulder
17% protein/62% water

100g chicken
18% protein/66% water

100g domestic rabbit
20% protein/73% water

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Angela Brown" <irisbarbata@yahoo.com>

it's not good to get into a rut with something higher in protein
like beef for a long time. A good sign to pay better attention to
proteing ratio is when a pup really drastically shoots up in the read
and it's not common for that line. Variety really in the best. All
meats are good but say if you give only chicken legs that might be too
much meat to bone over a long period of time when feeding chicken. The
whole prey has a perfect ratio an we have to do our best to simulate
it correctly.
Angie Brown

Messages in this topic (15)
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7a. Re: Concerned about food getting all over fur on face and ears
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:49 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGS.***

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "creativevazquez" <cWhat do others
do after
> mealtime?
> Gloria
>
I sometimes have to use a waterless shampoo because Pugs don't have a
nose and so their entire face gets into whatever they are eating, lol.

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8a. Re: Pork Ribs
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:49 pm ((PDT))

Evie,
My two danes, get the racks without me cutting them up and they are what I call, a leave "mommy alone treat", there really isn't enough meat on them for a meal, but that is for my guys, because they need about 2 pounds of meat a day. For yours, that would be different. Up to you, and sounds like they are eating high on the hog, and lovin it! You're doing a wonderful job, keep it up:)
Jeni

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9.1. Re: Rabit Meat
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:49 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eric Stehle <stehle_2@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Stephen. I am not sure where you live but I found Rabbit at my
local grocery store in Florida.(Publix Supermarket)

Oh, wow, where in Florida do you live? I'm in Miami.

Silvina and the pugs
>

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10a. Re: What's wrong with cooked?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:18 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>
> This is from another list, and I can't get to the "bibliography"
> because it's on some site somewhere to which I did not get
> the link.
> But even so, it agrees with how I think, and is well-supported,
> to my
> knowledge, so I thought I would share it:

If all that was true, we wouldn't live to be 5 years old! :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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10b. Re: What's wrong with cooked?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:18 am ((PDT))

On Jul 10, 2007, at 10:33 PM, carnesbill wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>>
>> This is from another list, and I can't get to the "bibliography"
>> because it's on some site somewhere to which I did not get
>> the link.
>> But even so, it agrees with how I think, and is well-supported,
>> to my
>> knowledge, so I thought I would share it:
>
> If all that was true, we wouldn't live to be 5 years old! :) :) :)

We live to a little more than five in some cases, before starting our
gradual decline into a slow death from inappropriate diet. What in
your background would justify saying that dogs are meant to eat raw,
but humans, who have also been around for the same tens of thousands
of years, are not? We've survived all right, but just long enough to
reproduce on our crappy cooked foods, staggering along as a race
through the centuries because of bad choices made by our big brains.

One can not only imagine, but even experience, the same changes in
health from diet as we see in our animals. So, cut out the kibble and
the drugs for yourself, too, and see where it gets you...

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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11. Re: freezer emptying
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:19 pm ((PDT))

>>Question about "freezer emptying":

How old is too old to feed to a puppy or a dog? What is the rule of thumb?
Venison different from other types of meats--or is there a general overall
rule?<<

Tamatha -- I don't think there even *is* a rule of thumb about "too old" to feed! Example: we found some wayward salmon fillets some time ago that my husband had caught (Michigan, guys, so no problems) at least six years previously. They were an odd color when thawed, but the dogs loved them, and had no issues from those lovely salmon meals. The issue with "old meat" is that, for humans, it loses its taste, and the texture seems to change sometimes, too; but the nutrition is still there.
I was given some venison from four years ago, and same story as the salmon -- it was fed, enjoyed, and recycled with no problems whatsoever.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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12. Digestion (was:Getting ready to take the plunge!)
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:10 am ((PDT))

RE: Also, raw and kibble digest at different rates, potentially causing digestive upset.

Does raw food harm a dog that also eats other foods in his diet? Is there a medical/factual reason, or does it depend on the individual dog's digestive system? If my dog eats a raw meal in the morning…then cooked in the evening (or grain-free kibble if we are backpacking), does the mixture of raw and cooked harm him? These were the questions on my mind when I asked the question.

People presumed that I mix the two in the same meal. I don't. This is not a Kibble v. Raw issue…just a pragmatic question that lots of people making the switch seem to have (though perhaps for different reasons).

RE: One feeding a 'mix' may incorrectly beleive that the effects of feeding kibble are negated by 'supplementing' with raw meat. I know a few people who feed/think this way. It's like saying it's OK to eat Big-Macs everyday as long as you throw in a salad. It's a slippery slope.

Those people you know feel/think very differently than I do.

Lori

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13a. Allergy
Posted by: "tinne" marc.gemis@pandora.be xianbowie
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:10 am ((PDT))

Yesterday I went to a dermatologist with my 11 month old whippet because he has acne on
some spots (not itchy) and 1 itchy ear. The vet said it is a bacterial infection and wants to
exclude a food allergy. Since I feed raw see advised me to give him horse meat and white
rice for 6 weeks. (that's the only meat he hasn't been fed yet)
I don't feel well with it because first of all, horse meat is difficult to find and expensive. But
also because I can't give any bone parts. All the meat comes from abroad (I think Argentina)
cut in pieces and boneless.

The allergy started *I think* when I started to give him yoghurt with Viyo (a new drink for
dogs on the market) some 2 weeks ago. I told it to the vet, but she said that 2 week period is
too short to see an allergy.

I rather want to stop giving the yoghurt with Viyo and see what happens from there.

Does anyone has good advise ?

Thanks,
Tinne

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14. New member with a 4 month old bullmastiff from Russia
Posted by: "grajnai" grajnai@yahoo.com grajnai
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:10 am ((PDT))

Hi and thank you for reading my post.

My name is Gabriella and we brought home our puppy (3 month old )
bullmastiff about 3 weeks ago..

Since than everyday Im reading this forum (and the puppy raw
feeding forum) and I found lot s of advices which helps me a lot but
I still have lots of questions. Im new on raw feeding and getting a
little bit confused.

The first week I followed what the breeder gave him (grains,
yoghurt, meat).

The second and third week I followed what my vet recommended ( he is
supporting partially the Raw feeding â€" saying no beef bones, only
maybe ribs, chicken bones except the weight bearing drumstick ) 1/3
of beef meat, 1/3 of beef heart, 1/3 of pig ears. Also he suggested
to ad triple and liver (1/5 part of all day food of each)

Right now he gets 0,66 lb (300gr) beef meat, the same amount beef
heart and pig ears. This is not the usual 80% meat, 10% organs, 10%
bones ratio. This pig ears, probably does not count as meat part..?

Im going to start chicken back and quarters soon. Can I give him
chicken wings? They are so tiny compare with the mouth of my puppy,
He would swallow them in one gulp  ) Should I give him one week
chicken, then this meat-heart-ear-triple-liver mix? Then introduce
pork, lamb?

Also I give him one teaspoon of fish oil and olive oil, 1 teaspoon
of grinded eggshells, one Calci D tablet and a supplement called SA
37 Intervet.

Also he gets Calcii glycheroposhpatis (800mg=0.028 ounce) per day
and Calcii Gluconatis (3.0gr =0.105 ounce) Should I give him all of
those? Is it good? Bad? (One vet say yes, the other one no)

The dog is active, happy, good poop. But his fur is coming out. I
don’t know, its normal? Maybe all those supplements? I read
somewhere puppies cant handle extra calcium.. (or the calcium
nothing to do with the fur probably?) Sometimes I have a feeling, if
its continues, he will be bold. It started on his tail, When I
stroke the dog’s back, at the end some fur is collecting and coming
out. Should I brush the dog? The breeder told me to give him olive
oil. But it seems to me this is not the solution.

What should I give to make the fur ok? He also gets one whole egg
per week with shells, he cracks it by himself (very funny . Can be
that this feeding meat-heart-pig ears cause trouble?

We live in the forest and he is munching a lot on everything. Tree
bush, small tree pieces, brunches (lol my daughter said, he eats
pretty much everything on his path , eats grass sometimes like a
cow. Every one around me says he is hungry.

But the vet told me he has some extra weight (right now he is 24
kg=53lb) so he gets almost 900gr- 1kg of food (aprox 2.0 lb per day)
If the ideal weight of a growing up bullmastiff is 60kg (132 pound)
he is eating less than 2%.

Does bullmastiff count as a giant breed? Like an English mastiff?

Should I feed him more or less? I don’t have a clue. His front
fingers are not “kept” together, but they are “showing in four
directions”. The vet told me its because of his weight. His back
leg (paw) I think it’s in a little lower position than it suppose to
be. ( I don’t want him to be a show dog, all I want him to be
healthy)

Even if we live in the forest, he moves probably more than a dog who
is living in apartment but I would like to walk with him an hour a
day. But this legs.. can I walk with him? Is it not going to be so
hard on him? He needs to build muscles, but can I ruin his legs with
walking? Yesterday we walked first time about half an hour. He
enjoyed, he was tired but I think his back legs got even lower.

Here in Moscow most of the vets buy his dog out of the country. The
breeders not really responsible so the whole dog and puppy situation
is very tricky. Hard to find a totally healthy puppy. Our previous
dog, rescued mastiff, had very hard dysplaxia (we did two times
surgery) and he died of cancer). I want this puppy to raise as
healthy as possible.

Sorry about my English and the long message. But here no one to ask,
the kibble was introduced couple of years ago into this country and
pretty much everyone is exited about it :(. One more question â€" is
anyone on this forum from Russia? Russian is not my first language
and I have a hard time to explain to the butcher what I want 

Thank you again and hoping for your advices

Gabriella and Bridge (that’s the dog 

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15. Black Lab in serious need of help
Posted by: "Gavin Gunn" meganhayleyfinn@yahoo.co.uk meganhayleyfinn
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:11 am ((PDT))

Dear All

I have a friend who has a 3 year old black lab called Clyde. His vet
has diognosed his condition as being allergic to house dust mites.

Clyde has over the last 10 months developed very severe itchy skin
which causes the dog to pull out its own fur from its legs and feet.
He has also been left with white rings around its eyes where hair has
fallen out naturally, which has obviously caused major stress to both
the dog and his owners.

Clyde also has extremely loose stools and bad wind.

The vet has put Clyde on steroids of which Clyde is now very bloated
and listless. (may or may not have anything to do with the steroids).

He has also been to Newmarket specialists who treated him with steroid
drugs, eye drops, ear drops, medicated shampoos/sprays, and a Pro Plan
diet for itchy skin.

This condition has so far been treated for approximately 10 months.

The dogs diet originally consisted of Country Persuit (dry), which
then changed to Pro Plan by the vet. The owner has recently changed
to Walfcol (Vegetarian) because the other food was too expensive (£60
per bag approx). The vet recommended this Walfcol diet.

The owners of the dog are seriously concerned, particularly as they
have seen Clyde deteriorate slowly over time and think time might be
running out for their pet who is still a young dog.

Will a change to raw feeding help here? Obviously any advice here is
both urgent, essential, and above all appreciated.

On behalf of Clydes owners

Gavin Gunn

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