[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11795

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: eminemmmfan
1b. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Lyse Garant
1c. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Nathalie Poulin
1d. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Laurie Swanson
1e. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: mz_boomer2
1f. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1g. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
From: Trish Chapman

2a. Re: squid report
From: Bearhair

3a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
From: costrowski75

4a. newbie - when to start chicken necks
From: quiltingtuppy
4b. Re: newbie - when to start chicken necks
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
From: Bearhair

6a. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
From: Anna Labriola

7a. Re: vomitting as well...
From: Bearhair
7b. Re: vomitting as well...
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

8a. Re: And ONE more???
From: carnesbill
8b. Re: And ONE more???
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

9.1. Re: picky eater
From: carnesbill
9.2. Re: picky eater
From: Giselle

10a. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
From: s c
10b. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Some feeding questions
From: carnesbill

12. kidney proportion as organ meat?
From: emmiemileslouie

13a. Re: Keeping it all clean
From: woofwoofgrrl

14a. Re: Just fed a beef testicle...
From: cdhaik

Messages
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1a. Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "eminemmmfan" hd_sheena@hotmail.com eminemmmfan
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right now. I feel that I
have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others feel is best for
the dogs.
1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed them properly. No
guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do put it in writing etc.
2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
3. Feed eggs, turkey necks and liver almost exclusively for about 6
months. Try hard to stick with 10 10 80 theory.
Unless I can find some cheap CHEAP sources of meat, we may be
resorting to one of these options. As it stands now, they get ALOT of
eggs, and we're spending our last $100 on dog food today.. What would
YOU do?
Courtenay

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:03 pm ((PDT))

I think I'd feed them on the cheapest stuff you can gitcher hands on...[listen to moi grinding my dogs' food the other day..] I think they'll be fine, 6 months is long, but I think it would work, though I am BY FAR no expert!!! Man, I wish I could help you with the rest and I will send good thoughts your way.
Lyse & G & N

eminemmmfan <hd_sheena@hotmail.com> wrote:
We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right now. I feel that I
have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others feel is best for
the dogs.
1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed them properly. No
guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do put it in writing etc.
2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
3. Feed eggs, turkey necks and liver almost exclusively for about 6
months. Try hard to stick with 10 10 80 theory.
Unless I can find some cheap CHEAP sources of meat, we may be
resorting to one of these options. As it stands now, they get ALOT of
eggs, and we're spending our last $100 on dog food today.. What would
YOU do?
Courtenay

Lyse

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

I found a local butcher near my house and if I call
him in advance, he gives me free meat scraps/bones.
I can't always identify what it is, but my dog sure
loves it.
Try looking around for an ethnic butcher who hates
wasting.
At least that way your dogs will be fed some great
meat other than just eggs and turkey necks.
I get goat meat, beef, pork. And the bones are great
too because there's big chunks of meat on them.
I try to shop there too (their prices for beef heart
are awesome!) for the other stuff like liver and
heart. I give them my business, they give me their
scraps!

I couldn't imagine what it would be like to have to
re-home your dogs and I seriously hope you don't, but
please try this before you even THINK about going back
to kibble!

Nathalie

--- eminemmmfan <hd_sheena@hotmail.com> wrote:

> We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right
> now. I feel that I
> have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others
> feel is best for
> the dogs.
> 1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed
> them properly. No
> guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do
> put it in writing etc.
> 2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
> 3. Feed eggs, turkey necks and liver almost
> exclusively for about 6
> months. Try hard to stick with 10 10 80 theory.
> Unless I can find some cheap CHEAP sources of meat,
> we may be
> resorting to one of these options. As it stands now,
> they get ALOT of
> eggs, and we're spending our last $100 on dog food
> today.. What would
> YOU do?
> Courtenay
>
>

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:06 pm ((PDT))

Courtenay,

Where are you located? Perhaps someone local might be able to help you
out in a more specific way with sources, donations, etc. Have you ever
done the freecycle or craigs list thing asking for meat?

Do you WANT to re-home your dogs? Although you said "ick" to kibble,
you didn't give any indication of your emotions about the re-homing
option.

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? You mentioned 6 mos. Is
this a temporary situation?

I'm sure we will all try to help you with ideas and resources.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "eminemmmfan" <hd_sheena@...> wrote:
>
> We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right now. I feel that I
> have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others feel is best for
> the dogs.

Messages in this topic (7)
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1e. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "mz_boomer2" mz_boomer2@yahoo.com mz_boomer2
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi Courtenay,

I hear you. I have recently been put to trying times myself and
understand. But if you have obviously cared enough to get to feeding
your dogs on RMB, then you obviously must love them very much. Rehoming
them would not garantee that they could get that same love somewhere
else as you pointed out. Nor would your dogs understand. This very same
subject came up a few weeks ago, but check the archives and you will
see some amazing suggestions that I would have never thought of under
such stress myself.

***YOU DO NOT need to switch back to ki%%l#

Use Freecycle.org or Craiglist.org, ask friends and neighbors for
any older freezer bunrned meet that they may not want and such. When
times are trying you'll be surprised at how resourceful you can be.

Good Luck
Pam
Christine & Halo

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "eminemmmfan" <hd_sheena@...> wrote:
>
> > 1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed them properly.
No
> guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do put it in writing
etc.
> 2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
>

What would
> YOU do?
> Courtenay
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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1f. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Courtenay,
Sorry to hear about your financial troubles. It's hard out there.
I hope that there is a sunny horizon for you in the near future, if so, maybe you could put the word out that you need some temporary help.
Check some of the freecycles, all of the local ones, asking for freezer burnt meat, and any spare meat, that is raw, that anyone can spare due to your circumstances. We have food closets here that also give to the animals for homeless people too. Maybe some of those places could help. (but might have a problem giving meat, but they might have some that was bad, for people if you promised it was for the dogs)
Maybe someone can pitch in and pay for the food while you care for them? Kind of a helping hand situation. I used to help foster kitties, I would pay for the food, if someone else would keep the kitties at thier homes:) That kind of thing. Check around, with animal welfare groups, and with any groups that your dogs might be related too, like if your dogs are Rotts, then Rott rescue groups, and so on. Let them know you don't want to give them up, just need some help keeping them for a little while.
If you were in my area, I would certainly give to the cause, I would love to give you meat that I have in my freezer to help out. I always have meat to give to a needy animal. Freezer always full here. Check with any groups that you may belong too, they may be willing to do what I would do to help you keep your dogs until you can do better for them yourself. If everyone you could think of gave 5 pounds of meat, that might make a difference, you think? I know it is hard, to ask for help, but it's even harder to give up your fur babies. Ask your friends and family for your babies help, they will understand, I do.
I have food here, I just don't have money to offer, If you are in Sacto, CA come on over, I'll give you food.:)
What would I do? Whatever it took to make sure my dogs were comfortable, healthy and happy, and of course safe with a roof over their heads. Do what you have to do, no one will fault you for taking care of your animals, but don't forget to take care of yourself tooo, if you don't, you can't take care of your animals.
Hope you find your way to your deserved blessings
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (7)
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1g. Re: Cheap meat sources, and an egg question
Posted by: "Trish Chapman" twotheark@verizon.net twotheark
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Courtenay,
So sorry that you are in this situation. But I definitely would not rehome.
There is no guarantee that they would fair any better with someone else and
it would be traumatic for them to leave. Watch all the sales in the local
stores. I have gotten unenhanced chicken leg quarters for as low as .29/lb
and unenhanced turkey breast for .49/lb. Often times, the stores will lower
the price as the meat gets closer to the "for sale" date. You may not be
able to feed them "perfectly" but hang in there and just do the best you can
until things get better. There is a website that has links to local stores
and their sales flyers
http://dmoz.org/Business/Food_and_Related_Products/Retail/.

Also, did you
check in your area for wholesale distributors and meat packers? If you
look, you might find something that will work with your budget. But, no
matter what, I wouldn't rehome my dogs. Hope you are able to get through
this without too much distress.

Trish

----- Original Message -----
From: "eminemmmfan" <hd_sheena@hotmail.com>

> We've hit some VERY difficult financial times right now. I feel that I
> have 3 choices, and would love to hear what others feel is best for
> the dogs.
> 1. Rehome the dogs to someone who can afford to feed them properly. No
> guarantee they'd stick with it, even though we do put it in writing etc.
> 2. Switch dogs back to K*bble. Ick.
> 3. Feed eggs, turkey necks and liver almost exclusively for about 6
> months. Try hard to stick with 10 10 80 theory.
> Unless I can find some cheap CHEAP sources of meat, we may be
> resorting to one of these options. As it stands now, they get ALOT of
> eggs, and we're spending our last $100 on dog food today.. What would
> YOU do?
> Courtenay

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: squid report
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

tammy wrote:

>by the way, the guts look like orange oatmeal.

OMIGOD, IT WAS PREGNANT!

Just kidding.

Lora

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Can't get a solid poop! (was New puppy won't eat)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Brad and Pam Barnes
<miningcamp_labs@...> wrote:
Somewhere I read to give my dogs digestive
> enzymes and probiotics for two weeks before starting
> the raw diet and for six weeks into it. I ran out a
> couple of days ago, so I thought I'd see how they do.
> We haven't had any diarrhea problems so far. I have
> seven labs ranging from 9 mo to 6 years. Do any of
> you veterans recommend this?
*****
So without even knowing if your dogs needed digestive help, you
started using these supplements? Or did you run into difficulties
that could not be settled otherwise? Were all seven dogs having
initial digestive problems? Where they the same digestive problems?

What do you do now that you've run out and your dogs have digestive
issues? Stay on pro-b and DE for life?

I think these are two very useful supplements if the dog indicates a
need for them. I believe that using a probiotic with/after
antibiotics is sensible. I don't think either ought to be used
without cause. I think the human and the dog ought to ride the
learning curve together without benefit of supplements in order to
find "normal", to see what foods do what how and when.

To assume that a dog will have digestive issues is premature. To
assume that digestive issues are a result of the food is premature;
almost always beginning digestive upset is caused by operator error--
too much food, too much new food, too much fat. And it's also
premature to assume your dogs' success is a result of the
supplements! You really have no idea if you are feeding to your
dogs' maximal advantage or not.

I recommend probiotics and digestive enzymes--not necessarily
together and primarily the DE--if/when the dog after many changes and
tweaks and adjustments is not doing well. I recommend them if the
human really has tried to make things work; or if the dog was having
significant problems on kibble. Otherwise, I don't see their value.

OTOH, they're better than canned pumpkin.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. newbie - when to start chicken necks
Posted by: "quiltingtuppy" mamacass@iprimus.com.au quiltingtuppy
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi All

I have a puppy and two kittens, wanting to start them all raw together. When I start, is it meat
attached to bigger bones (I understand not beef bones because of their density) only?, or will
they manage poultry necks straight up? I know they're finer and softer, chewable bones but
hate the thought of them getting stuck!

I know, get past the scary start and it will be all good but feeling a bit overwhelmed!

Thanks in advance!, you're an amazing group

Stephanie
Australia

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: newbie - when to start chicken necks
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "quiltingtuppy" <mamacass@...>
wrote:
>
> or will
> they manage poultry necks straight up?

If we are talking about a very small puppy, chicken necks would be
ok now and probably chicken wings. Be ready very soon to graduate to
chicken legs and thighs the shortly again to chicken quarters. My
Great Dane puppy was too big for necks,wings,legs and thighs at 12
weeks. He was eating quarters by then. Since I don't know the size
of your pup I can't tell for sure what would be appropriate for him.

Kittens should be ok on necks for most of their lives. My two grown
cats eat wings and legs most of the time.

> I know they're finer and softer, chewable bones but
> hate the thought of them getting stuck!

The kittens should be ok but if your puppy has any size at all, it
might be best to start him on quarters. It just depends on his age
and size.

You'll get through it. Seems these animals survive in spite of what
we do to them. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: After vomiting,started shaking head frequently..what is wrong wi
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

yassy wrote:

> One of them was Mutton. . . . ,I got the meat off from bone,and bagged the meat and hold the bone to get meat off a bit for herself before I get toss it. . . .
> She wanted to get into marrow too.So, I grabbed a chopstick and slide it inside the bone and she had what she wanted as well as some meat off the bone. . . .
> A minutes or two later,she vomited white form. I did not get to see closer look if it had bits of meat in it or not but she re-ate it.
> Then,she started shaking head. She should not have problems with mite etc all the sudden so,I wondered if it is something to do with mutton meat.Or,nausea??
> Right now,she is under the desk and laying down no head shaking.
> Anybody has any ideas why she suddenly started shaking head after re-ate the vomiting?
> I am guessing why she vomit was probably too much marrow came out when I poke the bone and too much marrow for her to digest/to get it stay put.

I agree with you that the richness of the marrow is a good guess as to why it
came up. I have no idea what the head shaking might be about. Has she done it
anymore since this afternoon?

Lora

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: one more Q, am I wrong for chopping...
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...>
> Yeah, I know, but I do have a 4 year old daughter, no yard. Guess
I'll remove his sleeping pad and feed him in his crate.

That's what I Do! Much easier to clean. Also, my pup will now go in
his crate on his own at times.

Anna and Khan(14 week old dobe)

Messages in this topic (11)
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7a. Re: vomitting as well...
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:06 pm ((PDT))

Lyse wrote:

>My 16 week old has been at this for 5 days, beef and chicken only so far, no bones yet, and the stuff is cut up pretty well for him. He has vomitted twice on this diet, but never before. I want to stick to it. Is it over feeding? It really bothers me to see him puke, makes me feel like I'm making him sick on this diet!

>I have a welsh terrier, weighs about 12 pounds now, adult weight s/b 20 pounds. I started him on beef, actually, and intro'd the chicken last night. He did fine with the beef.
>So do you still think I should switch over to chicken for two weeks? I'm about to go to the store...haha...
>Oh, and vomitting as well... that was sequed after another's email about vomitting, so it meant my dog's doing that too.

There's no magic about chicken. Just stick with a single protein for awhile
to ensure his digestion of raw is stable, mostly assessed by poop patrol. he
should, however, get some bone, so in that case, going with chicken IS a good
choice, since beef bones are limited as to which you can use and will be too
challenging to a young guy. Quit cutting it up for him. If he can chew, he
should be expected to.

If he throws up, he may have eaten too much, eaten too fast, or tried to
swallow too big a piece. Give him the chance to eat it again - do not sweep
it away, he's behaving perfectly normal and you'll just train him to HIDE his
vomit (likely in your bedroom slipper) for later dining.

1. Amount: 2 - 4 % of your dog's ideal adult body weight, depending on his
activity and metabolism, per day. Watch for body changes (ribs, waist, etc.)
over the next few weeks to determine what the right amount is for him.
For those mathematically challenged, 2 - 4% of 20 pounds is about 6 to 13
ounces.

2. Throw away all kibble and canned dog food.

3. Purchase a whole chicken or leg quarters from the grocery store, ensuring
that they are NOT enhanced with a salt solution or broth (retained water is
okay). Cut up the whole chicken into quarters. (Note: chicken is chosen only
for availability and price - it has no special properties).

4. If the chicken quarter is approximately the appropriate weight for a meal,
hand it to the dog, then step back and occupy yourself with something else
instead of staring at the dog - it will lessen the likelihood that he'll try
to swallow the entire thing in one gulp, thinking that you're about to take
it away.

5. If the chicken quarter is not enough for one meal, feed more. If the
chicken quarter is too much for one meal, either cut it up further, feed it
as is until the dog is full (this works if your dog self-regulates its
intake), or feed it until the dog eats an appropriate portion and then trade
the dog for the remaining meat using his favorite treat. If you can.

6. Continue to feed chicken for a week or so, until you are comfortable with
the concept and your dog is comfortable digesting it (you may see some loose
stool initially, but it should clear up before you proceed to the next step.
You will feed the entire chicken - meat, skin, and bones together. I rip the
excess fat off, when present in chunks, but don't get crazed about it. Take
all of the giblets (the stuff inside of the chicken) and freeze them for
later.

7. Slowly introduce another meat into the dog's meals. Pork is another
available and inexpensive option. Replace a portion of the chicken meat with
an equal amount of pork meat, increasing it each day. Continue to monitor
your comfort and his digestion. You can feed any pork as long as it is raw
and not enhanced with a salt solution or broth and not smoked or cured. Pork
chops (omit the bone), hunks of pork cut from a pork roast or pork shoulder,
etc.

8. When your dog is ready to eat full meals of pork, start adding pork bones.
Any bone that has been sawn is potentially sharp, so we prefer to feed the
bones within pork shoulders and other bone-in roasts, or pork ribs. Pork feet
are also tasty but ride the fence between a meal and a treat because there's
not much meat to them.

9. Now pull out those frozen giblets from the first week or two. Common items
include chicken necks, hearts, gizzard and liver. Out of these, liver is the
only item that is considered an "organ" for the purposes of raw feeding. The
rest is considered meat. In general, heart from any animal is quite rich, so
it's best to feed as a portion of a meal until you know how your dog's
digestion will react.

10. Introducing organ to the meal is done as you've already learned - a
little at a time, with monitoring. Some dogs hate the texture of thawed
liver, but will eat it frozen. Over time, your dog should be fed liver as
about 5% of its total intake (per month, per year, per lifetime), with other
organs making up another 5%. Other organs are identified using the "squidgy
rule" - if you touch and it feels "squidgy," it's an organ. They include
(depending on the animal) kidney, spleen, pancreas, reproductive organs,
lung, and brain. Heart, tongue, testicles, tails, feet, and heads are
considered meat.

11. After pork, you're free to pick another meat, just introduce it as you've
learned, a little at a time, with monitoring. Common choices include beef,
bison/buffalo, goat, lamb, mutton, veal, turkey, duck, goose, elk, venison,
fish, and rabbit. There are some additional rules for feeding wild game and
fish - keep reading the messages on the list and you'll pick those up, or ask
when you're ready.

12. Weight-bearing bones of large livestock (beef, bison, buffalo, elk,
venison, and possibly mutton) are stronger than your dog's teeth and will
break them. Depending on your dog, you can either trim the meat off and toss
the bone away, or feed the meat and bone together and remove the bone when
the meat is gone.

Lora

Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: vomitting as well...
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

Lyse,
Yes, do the chicken, for a couple of weeks, that way they have to work at it, take their time eating, and digesting the food, and that is the whole chickens, with the innards too, that way you are covered on the organs, but not overdoing it. You can split the chicken up between the dogs, and the organs too, and then they both get what they need, and you don't have to always guess about meat/bones/organs, ratios and stuff, it all comes together eventually. It just doesn't have to happen at each individual meal. In a perfect world that would be great, but we aren't perfect and neither are our dogs.
Get some whole chickens, with everything, cut into halfs and then quarter those and start with that, and give the organs with the meal on the third or fourth day, after they have finished off the whole chicken. No need to cut it up anymore, or skin it. If you get small young chickens, at about 3 pounds each, a quarter of a chicken could be a good meal, for a day. Maybe less, maybe a little more, depending on how much energy they spend. They will let you know if they are still hungry. If a quarter seems like it wasn't enough, let them try a half, and see how much they eat, or if it seems too much, take it away and give the rest the next feeding. See how the guess work goes away, just like the chicken?! You could try game hens if that is easier than cutting up chickens, you wouldn't have to cut those up at all, give the whole bird:) It's all trial and error, and with the dogs, you really can't muck it up too much, because they get to eat either way:)
Happy shopping.
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: And ONE more???
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
>
> Isn't she getting raw chicken all over herself?

You are catching on fast. :) No your daughter won't be injured by
chicken slobber. :) I have never known a child or adult get sick from
a raw fed dog. Many feeders here have children and my grandchildren
come over here so I assume it is no problem.

> If I put the piece on the floor, kitchen has no door,
> he'd immediately take it into the living room, so I'm going to
> feed him in his pen, or shut him up in the bathroom.

You have a some choices here. Feeding in crate or bathroom or laundry
room is each a viable choice. Training is another. If you stay right
with the dog and the instant he leaves the kitchen you take the food
away from him and put it back in the kitchen, very quickly he will
learn where he is to eat. If you want him to eat on a table cloth,
the instant he steps off the table cloth with the food, put him back
on it. They learn very quickly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
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8b. Re: And ONE more???
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

My two great danes, eat chicken among other things all the time, and lick and kiss on me and my husband, all the time. My husband won't admitt to it, but they do. My husband has a terminal disese, and he has no immune system. We are always careful, but that is the extent of it. He is very clean. I keep the kitchen somewhat clean, not too clean. I feed the dogs, when he does it, he does it with the tongs, or with gloves, not because of his immune system, because it grosses him out:) Our dogs are made to handle the viral load and the germs that come with eating raw meat of all kinds. And when it comes to transmitting stuff back and forth to your daughter, I think, and have been told by doctors, that it doesn't work that way. Dogs don't give us what they have, and we don't give them what we have. Except fleas. And a very rare few things not worth mentioning here. Salmonilla not one of them. Slobbering is not going to be a problem for you, it hasn't been one in our
house, and I'm sure it won't be in yours. And remember, they lick their behinds too, so we aren't worried about getting poopy mouth from that now are we?! Keep the area your dogs eat in clean, crates are good, a towell is sufficiant, the floor is fine, Teaching the dogs a spot to eat in is a wonderful training tool for you and your daughter to share in with the dogs, and learn to do it together. Wash up after, and wash your daughters face once in a while and I'm sure you could even kiss her too! I remember my old room mates daughter who used to pick her nose, and scratch her you-know what, and then would put her hand in her mothers mouth, and I would just gag, now, I just laugh, I eat while I clean up all sorts of stuff, nothing fazes me anymore, germs are out there, and we just need to keep ourselves a little cleaner:)
Goodluck mommy, and enjoy the wonderful world of puppydom/motherhood
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (11)
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9.1. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Feed her in the kitchen as she's used to, on a big towel.

.... lots of other stuff cut out for brevity ....

I agree 100% with Giselle except I wouldn't do anything to the thing
you are feeding. After 10 or 15 minutes of no action, put it in the
fridge and bring it back out next meal time. Nothing else in the
way of food, snacks, or treats until next meal time and then start
all over with the exact same piece. Some dogs have been known to go
4 or 5 days but usually a day or two is all thats needed. Keep
telling yourself, "No dog will starve itself to death in the
presence of food." Be tough.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (27)
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9.2. Re: picky eater
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:54 pm ((PDT))

Kewl!
Next meal, don't do anything to the chicken. ; )
We may have soft hearts, but we also have the big brains!
Good job!
TC
Giselle

> Giselle,
> I am doing precisely what you advised, right at this minute, and
Ruby has just eaten one piece of chicken. You're right, she seems to
be the boss around here! (for now!) :0)
> Becky

Messages in this topic (27)
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10a. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
Posted by: "s c" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

One reason I finally took the plunge to feeding raw was that after trying all sorts of "very good" kibble my dogs were still not at their peak of health. Also, my sister's dogs, all five of them, went into acute kidney distress after I recommended a "very good" kibble diet to her. Two had to be put down. Forget China you don't want anything that comes from there. Sorry if I sound bitter.

Silvina

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (8)
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10b. Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:59 pm ((PDT))

Not bitter, Silvina! Just cautious.
After all, melamine was found in some farm fish food in this country!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> One reason I finally took the plunge to feeding raw was that after
trying all sorts of "very good" kibble my dogs were still not at their
peak of health. Also, my sister's dogs, all five of them, went into
acute kidney distress after I recommended a "very good" kibble diet to
her. Two had to be put down. Forget China you don't want anything that
comes from there. Sorry if I sound bitter.
>
> Silvina

Messages in this topic (8)
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11a. Re: Some feeding questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:13 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, jeff wissler <wisslewj@...> wrote:
>
> First off, beef spleen?

I have Great Danes but what I aay about them will apply to your
little ones as well. Feed the spleen.

> Are there any precautions to
> giving these?

No

> Are there any hormones they can get too
> much of there or is it more like liver?

I don't think so but remember, organs should be fed in very small
amounts.

> Feed what
> they can handle every so often?

Exactly

> And the same question goes for beef kidneys. Just
> feed with no worries?

Remembering to feed in small amounts, yes. Don't make a meal out of
organs.

> Brains, guts, skin, noses, eyes (eeew) etc.
> and the glands.

Feed them.

> First, any precautions to wild deer or rabbit?

There is some disagreement. Some say freeze for a few weeks to a
month, others like myself don't worry about it. My dogs catch wild
prey pretty regularly and eat it on the spot.

> Second, how do I regulate what they can get and what
> they cant?

You will learn with experience. Your dogs will tell you what they
can't handle. Remember to feed organs in moderation and I doubt
there will be any problems.

> How much thyroid gland or adrenal for
> example?

A little bit. Assume your dogs could eat the whole animal in one
sitting ... what percentage of the diet would those glands be? Feed
them in the same porportion and you will be safe.

> Are there any inedible parts?

Probably intestines and bladder.

> I know these things are healthy and wild dogs self
> regulate but honestly mine would eat plastic if it was
> covered in blood!

So would wild dogs. :)

> Also chi's would never down a deer
> and hence the glands are probably too large for any
> one sitting. (not to mention toxic in excess.)

Absolutely ... again, imagine them eating the whole carcass and try
to judge how much of the diet would be each of those organs and
porportion accordingly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
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12. kidney proportion as organ meat?
Posted by: "emmiemileslouie" lklora@sbcglobal.net emmiemileslouie
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Finally, after a long hunt, I found some kidney as the only other organ
meat aside from liver available in my area. My question is do I have
to limit the kidney ratio to 5% or less as with liver? Also, I had a
choice of both lamb and pork kidney. Is one better than the other?

Thanks,
Linda

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Keeping it all clean
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

Marion,
If you are not already, I would use a clean dish cloth each time you
wash dishes - or switch to a dish brush that is easy to rinse in hot
water and *dries out completely* between dish washing sessions. Dish
cloths are notorious bacteria farms.

http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Dishcloth.html
http://web.extension.uiuc.edu/mclean/kitchen/020828.html
http://www.agriculture.technomuses.ca/english/FoodForHealth/WhoKeepsYourFoodSafe/Wash_Away_the_Bacteria.html

Christine

Messages in this topic (17)
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14a. Re: Just fed a beef testicle...
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rach9876" <rach9876@...> wrote:
i just fed a raw beef testicle. I found
> these at an Asian Market. It was about 10 oz. Is this an organ that
is
> very rich, like liver? What have your experiences been with feeding
> testicles. I'm hoping it doesnt give him an upset tummy or anything.
> Thanks.

I feed these too. They seem to be a bit fatty and the first time i fed
them the dogs had the squirts once or twice so now i feed the whole
er ... hmmm what to call it ... thing ... haha... divided between my
three dogs with rest of a meaty meal. Can't stand the smell of them
myself but the dogs enjoy them and they are easily available and
considered a huge delicacy in soup here.

Caren y Amber y Rain

Messages in this topic (4)
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