Feed Pets Raw Food: Aug 22, 2007

Wednesday, August 22, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11944

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: leaving bones with pup
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1b. Re: leaving bones with pup
From: ginny wilken

2a. Re: first raw meal this evening....
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: first raw meal this evening....
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Linda Gower

4a. Infections and pancreatitis
From: ptmagi
4b. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: Giselle
4c. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: tottime47
4d. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: jmwise80
4e. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Hey y'all!
From: Dawn
5b. Re: Hey y'all!
From: Giselle

6a. Vet disagrees with raw
From: Ivette Casiano

7a. feeding heads/eating teeth
From: Laurie Swanson
7b. Re: feeding heads/eating teeth
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Albertson's ribs price correction
From: Maggie Smith

9a. Re: Turkey legs
From: Alan & Andrea Southern
9b. Re: Turkey legs
From: cdhaik

10. Took the plunge--a few more questions
From: JoAnn Ehlinger

11a. Words of caution
From: Joseph
11b. Re: Words of caution
From: Morledzep@aol.com
11c. Re: Words of caution
From: Giselle

12a. Re: Newbie reassurance & questions
From: Olga

13. [Raw Feeding] Thank you for the encouragement and advice!!!
From: Brandi Bryant

14. Mammoth size knuckle bones?
From: Brandi Bryant

Messages
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1a. Re: leaving bones with pup
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/22/2007 3:50:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
h.halo@yahoo.com writes:

I agree, I would not leave my dog alone with a recreational bone. Bones thaw
out and then can splinter depending on how strong the jaws are on the dog.

***edible RAW bones do NOT splinter and are not brittle. when the dogs
crunch them there may be some sharp edges, but they are not splinters.

COOKED bones are brittle and can splinter and can be dangerous.. these are
possibilities, not guarantees..

It is only common sense to be around and at least listen if not watch for
signs of distress when your dogs are eating something that can be stupidly eaten.
This list includes almost all bones, edible and otherwise.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: leaving bones with pup
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:28 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 22, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Michael Moore wrote:

>
> Okay, this statement has been bothering me, so I'll comment --
> IMO, puppies and adult dogs for that matter, should be supervised
> when eating bones.
> Although few of the listers have ever had a problem, I think it
> makes sense to be "around" when bones are consumed, lest something
> happen that we might assist with. I've been rawfeeding for 6 yrs.,
> and even with the adults who have been rawfed that length of time,
> I still hang around to make sure all is well when they're fed.
> Perhaps that's just me, but to do otherwise feels irresponsible to me.
>
> -- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly
> Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

Nope, it's not just you, Anne! No way would I leave any dog alone
with ANY food; too many things can go wrong.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: first raw meal this evening....
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi Cori.

If anything is irritating to their system and not able to be digested, it
will come out one way or another....but that's not necessarily a bad thing,
so don't worry about it. Feeding frequency depends on your dogs....age
and health will dictate what they are able to handle.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "coriowen" <COwen98@aol.com>

I feed my 4 girls their first chicken "only" raw meal this evening and
I will start tomorrow at lunchtime with this from now on, because as I
understand they eat once a day, correct, not twice? Should I worry
about any of them possibly getting sick tonight if they had kibble
early this morning? I didn't know if I should have waited 24 hours
before feeding them raw and not feeding them kibble. I was told it was
ok, but know I am wondering if I will have any vomit or diarrehea from
any of them???

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: first raw meal this evening....
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/22/2007 4:28:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
COwen98@aol.com writes:

didn't know if I should have waited 24 hours
before feeding them raw and not feeding them kibble. I was told it was
ok, but know I am wondering if I will have any vomit or diarrehea from
any of them???

Cori,

Loose stools for a day or three is common when there are major diet
changes... relax. Sometimes dogs vomit bile and bone bits when they are new to raw
also.. doesn't mean that your dogs will.. and it doesn't mean that it's a bad
thing if it does. It's just part of the adjusting process if these things
happen.

I personally would have fasted them for 24 hours before introducing raw, but
that's a personal choice.. it's not necessary, and there is no reason to
expect anything other than normal reactions to dietary changes.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Linda Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:33 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

There is also a canineliver group in Yahoo groups. There were a lot of raw feeders on that list when I was on it several years back with a dog with liver issues. Like someone else mentioned, this dog craved beef - wouldn't touch chicken. I think the multiple packs of stew meat he ate were what kept him going until we got him back on the right path (minus his gall bladder) and built him back up post insult.

There is also a great herbal pill - LiverCare by Himalaya. Has all the liver supportive stuff in it.

Linda Gower
----- Original Message -----
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Vet wants a low protein diet

For nutrition help go to K9KidneyDiet at Yahoo groups. They're a kidney
failure group but someone on there will know where to direct you for liver
problems as well. And, I agree with the person who posted that dietary changes
for certain illnesses might be different than the standard normal diet for a
healthy dog (just like people). You can use food as "medicine" or "poison" to
support or aggravate certain conditions. And no, it's not protein that's the
problem. Even with kidney failure, it's phosphorus in that case and fat for
pancreas and liver. I suggest you contact that group and ask for help.
They've got a TON of nutritional data.

Carol for Spencer

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Messages in this topic (41)
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4a. Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:12 pm ((PDT))

What a difference a day makes! :(

Yesterday, my only concern about switching our pup to raw was the
expense, and whether my daughter (who will be leaving home and taking
the dog with her when she graduates in the spring) will be able to
afford it. But, if need be, I will pay for the dog's food, so I
overcame that concern pretty easily.

Then my son calls me last night after talking at length to his
roommate's father who has been a vet tech at Colorado State
University's Vet Teaching hospital for the past 25 years and he threw
out allllll sorts of problems we could face.

His first warning was that pancreatitis is much more prevalent in
raw-fed dogs. I've been researching that today on the internet and
haven't found anything to back it up. The only consensus seems to be
that no one knows what causes it, but that high fat diets often
accompany it.

His second warning was that feeding raw meet subjects the dog to lots
of infections, and that because of this most vet clinics will only
treat raw-fed dogs off-site (and at much greater expense), so as not
to subject other patients to unnecessary risk. I find this really
hard to believe, but also can't imagine this man is just out-and-out
lying. Has anyone here run into this?

Another warning was that one has to be ULTRA careful that the meat you
feed is fresh and human-grade. And yet, I've read in other posts here
that some dogs actually prefer their meat a little "stinky" and
apparently don't suffer any distress from it. At this point in our
conversation I mentioned to my son that dogs' digestive systems are
much different from ours and that they can handle a lot of
crap/bacteria/yuckystuff that we can't and he said that Ken (the vet
tech) told him that is NOT true, that their digestive acids are no
different from ours. Well, I double-checked that today and the guy's
NUTS! A dog's stomach acidity is less than or equal to pH 1 with food
in the stomach and a human's is pH 4-5. That's a BIG difference!
Furthermore, with no carbs or sugars in their stomachs for bacteria to
thrive on, wouldn't infections be LESS likely to take hold in a raw
fed dog than a kibble fed one?

Honestly, this last assertion of his makes me wonder if the guy is
credible at all, and yet, with his background, SURELY he must have
some credibility?!?!? (I looked up his creds online and found that he
was even named Outstanding Vet Tech of the year by the CVMA a few
years ago.)

Geez, I'm confused! Hellllp!

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Deb!
IMO, some people are so irrationally opposed to raw feeding,
that they will use ANY argument, even outright untruths, to make
people feed cr*p-in-a-bag.

And others are so indoctrinated by "The Experts at the Big Dog Food
Company", they just can't admit that they can learn anything from
someone with common sense, and no letters after their name.

If I were you, I'd thank my son for his input, and do what I know is
best. : )

Tc
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> What a difference a day makes! :(
>
> Yesterday, my only concern about switching our pup to raw was the
> expense, and whether my daughter (who will be leaving home and taking
> the dog with her when she graduates in the spring) will be able to
> afford it. But, if need be, I will pay for the dog's food, so I
> overcame that concern pretty easily.
>
> Then my son calls me last night after talking at length to his
> roommate's father who has been a vet tech at Colorado State
> University's Vet Teaching hospital for the past 25 years and he threw
> out allllll sorts of problems we could face.
>
> His first warning was that pancreatitis is much more prevalent in
> raw-fed dogs. I've been researching that today on the internet and
> haven't found anything to back it up. The only consensus seems to be
> that no one knows what causes it, but that high fat diets often
> accompany it.
>
> His second warning was that feeding raw meet subjects the dog to lots
> of infections, and that because of this most vet clinics will only
> treat raw-fed dogs off-site (and at much greater expense), so as not
> to subject other patients to unnecessary risk. I find this really
> hard to believe, but also can't imagine this man is just out-and-out
> lying. Has anyone here run into this?
>
> Another warning was that one has to be ULTRA careful that the meat you
> feed is fresh and human-grade. And yet, I've read in other posts here
> that some dogs actually prefer their meat a little "stinky" and
> apparently don't suffer any distress from it. At this point in our
> conversation I mentioned to my son that dogs' digestive systems are
> much different from ours and that they can handle a lot of
> crap/bacteria/yuckystuff that we can't and he said that Ken (the vet
> tech) told him that is NOT true, that their digestive acids are no
> different from ours. Well, I double-checked that today and the guy's
> NUTS! A dog's stomach acidity is less than or equal to pH 1 with food
> in the stomach and a human's is pH 4-5. That's a BIG difference!
> Furthermore, with no carbs or sugars in their stomachs for bacteria to
> thrive on, wouldn't infections be LESS likely to take hold in a raw
> fed dog than a kibble fed one?
>
> Honestly, this last assertion of his makes me wonder if the guy is
> credible at all, and yet, with his background, SURELY he must have
> some credibility?!?!? (I looked up his creds online and found that he
> was even named Outstanding Vet Tech of the year by the CVMA a few
> years ago.)
>
> Geez, I'm confused! Hellllp!
>
> Deb in CO
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi Deb,

How about you google

VET TECH DEGREE REQUIREMENTS

then you can decide if this guy the wisest guy on the
planet or not........

Sounds like he's been cooped up in academia for a little to
long with not enough contact with the real world, lol.

He isn't a vet and he's not in daily practice....
I personally think some of his ideals are way out there.....

I suggest you call around till you find a vet who at least agrees
with raw feeding,
heaven forbid you luck onto one who recommends it and take that new
puppy in for a checkup and a frank talk.....it'll do you both
good.......

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:

> Honestly, this last assertion of his makes me wonder if the guy is
> credible at all, and yet, with his background, SURELY he must have
> some credibility?!?!? (I looked up his creds online and found that
he
> was even named Outstanding Vet Tech of the year by the CVMA a few
> years ago.)
>
> Geez, I'm confused! Hellllp!
>
> Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (5)
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4d. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:58 pm ((PDT))

> Honestly, this last assertion of his makes me wonder if the guy is
> credible at all, and yet, with his background, SURELY he must have
> some credibility?!?!? (I looked up his creds online and found that he
> was even named Outstanding Vet Tech of the year by the CVMA a few
> years ago.)

It sounds to me like you took all his warnings into consideration,
researched them to the best of your ability, and debunked each one
thoroughly.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (5)
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4e. Re: Infections and pancreatitis
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:59 pm ((PDT))

Hey Deb!

Sounds like you already know this vet's assertions are nonsense....go with
your gut feeling. You are not the one who is confused! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Hey y'all!
Posted by: "Dawn" mpenny_007@yahoo.com mpenny_007
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi! Just wanted to say thanks a big bunch for all the information and
encouragement! I'm new, but, am encouraged by the comraderie(sp?)! My
name is Dawn and we have a one year old male Boxer, an almost one year
old male BT, a 5 m/o female BT, and a 17 y/o male Siamese cat. We just
started feeding raw about a month ago and I absolutely love it! My
babies all love it, too(the furry ones, the human kids are kinda
grossed out, but, not too bad! lol) My 5 m/o BT had a bit of health
problems, but since we started rawfeeding, she is putting on wt and
doing great! My boys are doing great also...so healthy and happy! My
kitty man is gaining and actually stays awake most of the day now!
Anyway, I won't keep you all, just wanted to say a big ole THANK YA!

Sincerely,
Dawn

PS....got pork chops at the grocer's today for $.99/lb....SCORE!

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Dawn!
YQW!
Its great to hear how people and their critters are doing.
btw, cut out the chop bones and toss them out.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi! Just wanted to say thanks a big bunch for all the information and
> encouragement! I'm new, but, am encouraged by the comraderie(sp?)! My
> name is Dawn and we have a one year old male Boxer, an almost one year
> old male BT, a 5 m/o female BT, and a 17 y/o male Siamese cat. We just
> started feeding raw about a month ago and I absolutely love it! My
> babies all love it, too(the furry ones, the human kids are kinda
> grossed out, but, not too bad! lol) My 5 m/o BT had a bit of health
> problems, but since we started rawfeeding, she is putting on wt and
> doing great! My boys are doing great also...so healthy and happy! My
> kitty man is gaining and actually stays awake most of the day now!
> Anyway, I won't keep you all, just wanted to say a big ole THANK YA!
>
> Sincerely,
> Dawn
>
> PS....got pork chops at the grocer's today for $.99/lb....SCORE!
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

<<...Well, I thought to myself, raw food, 1 ingredient, has
to be best, but I didn't say that to him.>>

LOL, LOL, LOL, You should've said that to him on the way out. LOL. I've heard they only get training in a few workshops on nutrition by commercial pet food companies. LOL,LOL, I'm still laughing.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. feeding heads/eating teeth
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

I posted this before but don't think I got any replies:

When you feed a head (like a lamb's head), does your dog eat the
teeth? Are there any safety concerns with a dog eating teeth? Mine is
a 20 lb. Boston, if that makes any difference.

I fed a lamb's head recently and my dog didn't seem to be too
interested in the mouth/tooth area (well, actually he did like the
tongue and the gum tissue--sorry if that's too graphic!), but he also
wasn't making much progress on the skull, so I removed it before he'd
eaten any teeth. He cleaned it off pretty well. I wasn't sure if he
could/would swallow any teeth, but I was slightly concerned...

Thanks,

Laurie

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: feeding heads/eating teeth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:53 pm ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I posted this before but don't think I got any replies:
*****
It may have gotten lost in the Yahoo Shuffle.

> When you feed a head (like a lamb's head), does your dog eat the
> teeth? Are there any safety concerns with a dog eating teeth?
*****
Sometimes the teeth are eaten, sometimes they're not. Once after a
calf head I found a scattering of teeth where one dog had eaten. OTOH,
I can recall many "tooth inclusive" meals with nothing left, not even a
tooth.

I don't see teeth as a health issue, but I've never fed adult heads,
just babies, or small game. They're either et or they ain't.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Albertson's ribs price correction
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

I hope that wasn't me - I thought I posted at 10 lbs for $10.

If it was me, I am so sorry !!!

Maggie, Rufus and Oliver

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry, all, the price of .10/lb. that was posted previously by
someone
> else is incorrect. It's $1/lb. I just went to Albertson's in
Seattle
> and didn't see any ribs at that price and couldn't find it in the
> flyer, so I came home and looked online. This is from their web site:
>
> Country Style Ribs Pork Shoulder or Beef Back Ribs
> Max Pak, Beef Back Ribs Previously Frozen
> 10 LBS. FOR $10 with your Preferred Savings Card
> thru Aug 28
>
> Laurie
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "Alan & Andrea Southern" wykham@sa.chariot.net.au seawyndriana
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

Our cats rip the meat off and some chew the end, the standard poodles eat it all, the 8 week old pups are like the cats.
We can buy turkey for .80 cents a kilo or .40 cents a lb

Alan & Andrea
KITNKABOODLE BURMESE
WYKHAM BRITISH SHORTHAIR
QUINIVA STANDARD POODLES
http://users.chariot.net.au/~wykham
Aldinga Beach
South Australia
Australia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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9b. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/22/2007 2:39:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> ricottaj@... writes:
>
> New to rawfeeding and wondering if it is okay to feed a turkey
drumstick to
> my dog. She is a
> 50 pound pitbull/boxer mix.

Dogs love em mine leave some shards the pup cant manage a full on
chomp down yet but no worries. We get really big drumsticks here in
Guatemala and i have cut around just out of curiosity to see how much
meat and how much bone and they are good and meaty for us, if you feel
its a bit skinny on meat give the next few days meaty meals only, all
balances out on this diet anyways.

Caren y Amber y Rain

Messages in this topic (18)
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10. Took the plunge--a few more questions
Posted by: "JoAnn Ehlinger" jo11931@yahoo.com jo11931
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

Thank you to those who responded to my questions about
starting our newly adopted 7mo lab/boxer mix on a raw
diet.

Linus had his first chicken quarter(leg)tonight. It
was funny watching him because at first all he did was
lick it and then he pulled on it and after about 5min
realized it was ok to eat it and he went to town.

So a few more questions.

Since he is a pup and is still growing should I feed
him twice a day?

If I feed him twice is a leg quarter for one meal and
then a boneless meal ok for the next?

Are organ meats a once a week thing or more often?

I think that is all for right now. I'm sure I will
have more questions later.

Living and learning in Indiana,

JoAnn

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Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Words of caution
Posted by: "Joseph" scarfinger68@yahoo.com scarfinger68
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

I have been feeding raw for 3 months to a miniature schnauzer and she
is doing great.

I gave my dog a pig tail about 4 inches big with the fat and skin
removed. She swallowed it whole after up-chucking it 3 times. I
said if this doesn't kill her nothing will.

Lesson: Give her a bigger tail so she can't swallow whole.

County style ribs: I cut the bone out because I thought they where
kind of an odd shape and I read in here that one reader said to stay
away from them. With the bone cut it it left approximately a 10 inch
piece of meat that I thought my dog would chew up and eat. She
didn't. She attempted to swallow it whole... I heard gasping noises
on her 4th try. She got it about 3/4 the way down and it got stuck.
She couldn't gag it back up and started running around in the yard in
a panic. I grabbed her and pulled it out.

Lesson learned: Feed bigger pieces of meat and or leave the bone in.
(She has ate those type of ribs without any problem with the bone
left in.)

I still am not 100% converted to RAW. I give 1/3 cup dog food in the
morning (which she doesn't eat until after her evening RAW meal)

The problem I am having is finding bone to go with the pork. I have
been using pig tails but they have a lot of fat. Otherwis I feed
chicken, kidney, heart and pork. One in a while beef but its more
expensive and I can't find meat/bone ratio that works for me.

Joe Stokes, Ohio

Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: Words of caution
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:29 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/22/2007 7:22:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
scarfinger68@yahoo.com writes:

Joe,

there does not have to be bone in every meal.. a nice hunky pork picnic has
just the right amount of bone for the amount of meat on it.. even if the dog
doesn't eat all of the bone.

and there is no reason to remove the fat or skin.. fat is GOOD for dogs and
the skin is chewy and good for their teeth..

Remember that only 10% of the diet needs to be edibly bone, you can certainly
go over that.. just don't get carried away.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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11c. Re: Words of caution
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:51 pm ((PDT))

Joe, Joe, How can you see the full benefits of feeding raw in your dog
if you don't FEED ALL RAW? hmmm? Give it a real trial.

Why not buy pork shoulders or fresh hams? I can get 'em for about .69
cents a pound. Cut off meal sized chunks, or let her eat off enough
for a meal, then put it in the fridge until next meal.

Not all meals have to have a bone. With only 10% edible bone needed in
the diet, you can feed plenty of boneless meals.

Pig tails are a bit bony and fatty, I think. Not for regular feeding,
anyway. The piece you fed must have been cut up, try for bigger parts.
Sometimes, if you can talk to the meat manager, you can get them to
sell you stuff before they whack them into little bits. Whole pork
neck bones are soft and edible, but need meat added to them.

What about turkey? Rabbit is good, if you can find a source at an
affordable price.

How's about some organs, especially liver? Liver is important, it
should be 5% of the total diet.

You get kudos for feeding raw, but give that kibble away!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have been feeding raw for 3 months to a miniature schnauzer and she
> is doing great.
>
> I gave my dog a pig tail about 4 inches big with the fat and skin
> removed. She swallowed it whole after up-chucking it 3 times. I
> said if this doesn't kill her nothing will.
>
> Lesson: Give her a bigger tail so she can't swallow whole.
>
> Country style ribs: I cut the bone out because I thought they where
> kind of an odd shape and I read in here that one reader said to stay
> away from them. With the bone cut it it left approximately a 10 inch
> piece of meat that I thought my dog would chew up and eat. She
> didn't. She attempted to swallow it whole... I heard gasping noises
> on her 4th try. She got it about 3/4 the way down and it got stuck.
> She couldn't gag it back up and started running around in the yard in
> a panic. I grabbed her and pulled it out.
>
> Lesson learned: Feed bigger pieces of meat and or leave the bone in.
> (She has ate those type of ribs without any problem with the bone
> left in.)
>
> I still am not 100% converted to RAW. I give 1/3 cup dog food in the
> morning (which she doesn't eat until after her evening RAW meal)
>
> The problem I am having is finding bone to go with the pork. I have
> been using pig tails but they have a lot of fat. Otherwise I feed
> chicken, kidney, heart and pork. One in a while beef but its more
> expensive and I can't find meat/bone ratio that works for me.
>
> Joe Stokes, Ohio
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: Newbie reassurance & questions
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Whetsel" <chickiboo@...> wrote:
> They are each getting one
> leg & thigh twice a day.
...
> One dog (she's a 100 lb St. Bernard
> mix) still has the diarrhea. The other dog (a 85lb rather nervous
> golden/newfie mix) seems just fine activity wise and all, but hasn't
> gone at all since Monday afternoon.

I'd be tempted to go with 3 chicken leg quarters for the Saint, and
stay with two for the Golden/Newfie. Stick to chicken till both have
solid stools. The lack of poop in the smaller dog may just be the
adjustment, or you may have missed him going. I'm betting you'll see
him poop soon.

The whole chicken plan sounds good to me, but don't feed the chicken
bone after you remove the meat. That would be too much bone and
constipate them. And depending on how much chicken breast you eat,
you can give the dogs some whole chickens also. For those two I'd cut
a whole chicken right down the middle to create two slightly unequal
halves. Give the bigger one to the bigger dog and smaller half to the
smaller dog (I'm assuming they're not overweight here).

Olga

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

13. [Raw Feeding] Thank you for the encouragement and advice!!!
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

Well, I went shopping. Didn't come home with what I had planned but I
think I did pretty good. Went to Wal-mart and I got 14 whole chicken
fryers for .82 a lb. I got 2 bags of leg quarters for $3.90 a bag -
the rest of their chicken wasn't price all that good I didn't think.
They had a family value pack of chicken thighs for like 1.18lb for
5lbs - priced at $5.87. They had Boneless Skinless Breasts with rib
meat at a $3.04 a lb and for 5lbs was 15.18. Thought that was high.
So I went to Homeland and got several packages of Half Chicken Breast
with ribs for $1.69 a lb. Come home gave the dogs their meals, and
then I did up tomorrow mornings and evening in gallon size zip lock
bags, and did the next days. I'm giving small amounts in the morning
and bigger portions in the evening. I did notice the Duke, Catori,
and Roxie are having loose stools so I'm trying to give them lots of
bone, right? I'm not giving any organs, just basically whole chickens
cut up, breats and leg quarters. Should the loose stools clear up on
their own? There was something else...OH I emailed on of the butcher
that we have in Nowata, they still have not answered my email...I did
talk to another local butcher here in Dewey (which is like 5 minutes
down the road - you blink and you've missed kinda towns LOL) and they
do have meat, mostly pork and beef. The lady that I talked to said
that she has been told that her prices are cheaper a lot of times then
Wal-Mart unless they put there meat on sale. So when I get to beef
and pork there's another avenue for me, I have sent out an email to
Bartlesville Freecycle letting everybody know that if they cleaning
out their freezers of expired meat to let me know, thank you for that
suggestion. I will go in the mornings to Walmart and see if they've
marked their meat down. I'm also going to be talking to some of the
meat market managers and see if they can't get me some chickens in
bulk.

I just want to thank you to all of those that gave me advice and
encouragement. I'm starting to feel more relaxed with feeding raw to
my dogs. I appreciate you all more then you know!!

You guys are the BEST!!!!
--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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14. Mammoth size knuckle bones?
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:58 pm ((PDT))

You know those big mammoth size knuckle bones, I bought 2 of them for
my GS adults before I start the RAW diet and I'm thinking that with
the meat or dried "flavoring" that's on it won't be good for them. Am
I correct in my thinking? That I should not give these to my dogs,
should I donate them to the SPCA or ARF?

Again thank you for all that you've done!

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11943

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: leaving bones with pup
From: Giselle
1b. Re: leaving bones with pup
From: Halo Harris

2a. Re: Turkey legs
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. Re: Turkey legs
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
2c. Re: Turkey legs
From: costrowski75
2d. Re: Turkey legs
From: jennifer_ricotta
2e. Re: Turkey legs
From: jennifer_ricotta
2f. Re: Turkey legs
From: delcaste

3a. Re: Newbie reassurance & questions
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

4. Bear meat/parts
From: erica

5a. Vacation
From: Linda Edgington
5b. Re: Vacation
From: Andrea

6a. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
From: Casey Post

7a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: tottime47

8a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Giselle
8b. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: tottime47
8c. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: delcaste

9a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: Sandee Lee
9b. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: delcaste

10a. Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
From: sarahfalkner
10b. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
From: Giselle
10c. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
From: Giselle

11. Albertson's ribs price correction
From: Laurie Swanson

12a. first raw meal this evening....
From: coriowen
12b. Re: first raw meal this evening....
From: Andrea

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: leaving bones with pup
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:02 pm ((PDT))

Thank you, Anne!
That was bothering me, too.

I think that if you need something to keep the pup occupied while
she's crated when you're working; she should have some exercise in the
am to tire her out, even if its just zoomies in the yard, toss the toy
or a little tug in the house while you're getting ready for work,
making breakfast, and so forth.

A stuffed frozen Kongsickle in the crate should provide enough
'busyness' alternated with sleeping, to while away the time while
you're gone.

Supervised mealtimes are important, even if you only have 1 dog, imo.

And, it may not need to be mentioned, again, but rec/wreck bones are
too hard; they are tooth breakers and wear teeth down over time. They
shouldn't be fed for physical, mental or dental exercise, because the
body parts you feed at meals should be large and engaging enough to
accomplish all that.
TC
Giselle
with Bes in New Jersey

> >>I often give my pup frozen bones if I am out for the day - they keep
> her occupied for ages.<<
>
> Okay, this statement has been bothering me, so I'll comment --
IMO, puppies and adult dogs for that matter, should be supervised when
eating bones.
> Although few of the listers have ever had a problem, I think it
makes sense to be "around" when bones are consumed, lest something
happen that we might assist with. I've been rawfeeding for 6 yrs.,
and even with the adults who have been rawfed that length of time, I
still hang around to make sure all is well when they're fed. Perhaps
that's just me, but to do otherwise feels irresponsible to me.
>
> -- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden
rescue) in NW Ohio

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: leaving bones with pup
Posted by: "Halo Harris" h.halo@yahoo.com h.halo
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:49 pm ((PDT))

I agree, I would not leave my dog alone with a recreational bone. Bones thaw out and then can splinter depending on how strong the jaws are on the dog.
Halo

Michael Moore <m-tak@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>I often give my pup frozen bones if I am out for the day - they keep
her occupied for ages.<<

Okay, this statement has been bothering me, so I'll comment -- IMO, puppies and adult dogs for that matter, should be supervised when eating bones.
Although few of the listers have ever had a problem, I think it makes sense to be "around" when bones are consumed, lest something happen that we might assist with. I've been rawfeeding for 6 yrs., and even with the adults who

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Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/22/2007 2:39:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ricottaj@mac.com writes:

New to rawfeeding and wondering if it is okay to feed a turkey drumstick to
my dog. She is a
50 pound pitbull/boxer mix.

Jen,

nothing wrong with turkey drumsticks.. they are favorite foods here.. except
most of my dogs eat the drumsticks with the thighs still attached, like a
chicken leg quarter only bigger..

Catherine R.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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2b. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

Jen,
You're not giving us very much info. For all intents it should be ok, but you should give more meat than just a leg. How long on the diet, what have you been feeding so far? What is your main source of meat I mean.? A leg is good for munching, but not enough meat. The bone to meat should be 10%bone and then meat. A leg is too much bone and not enough meat for a meal, but for a snack, just fine.:) If your dog is a gulper, the leg might go down too fast, so you might need bigger pieces, like the half of the bird, so it has to chew it's dinner. Get the picture? Hope that helps.
jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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2c. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:53 pm ((PDT))

"jennifer_ricotta" <ricottaj@...> wrote:
>
> New to rawfeeding and wondering if it is okay to feed a turkey
drumstick to my dog. She is a
> 50 pound pitbull/boxer mix.
*****
I feed turkey leg/thigh quarters to my adult retrievers and the leg to
my 10mo bc pup. Everybody does their job well, so I have no problem
recommending them.

The leg bone does scare some raw feeders, but I've found dogs
generally know how to deal. If you are concerned, you can let your
dog rip off the skin and flesh and chew on the knobby joints, then
collect up the long bone. It's possible you'll see uneaten shards
lying around. My feeling is the dog left them because that was the
sensible thing to do. Sometimes one of my dogs will leave shards,
sometimes not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
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2d. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

I have been making patties according to BARF ratios and am just introducing whole pieces.
My dog has eaten plenty of chicken parts and now we're moving to turkey this week. She's
been eating raw about three weeks now. I was going to feed the leg as one meal and the
patty as another but you are saying that a leg is not enough meat? What part(s) would be
enough to give to her as a meal?
Jen

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
> Jen,
> You're not giving us very much info. For all intents it should be ok, but you should give
more meat than just a leg. How long on the diet, what have you been feeding so far?
What is your main source of meat I mean.? A leg is good for munching, but not enough
meat. The bone to meat should be 10%bone and then meat. A leg is too much bone and
not enough meat for a meal, but for a snack, just fine.:) If your dog is a gulper, the leg
might go down too fast, so you might need bigger pieces, like the half of the bird, so it
has to chew it's dinner. Get the picture? Hope that helps.
> jeni
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (16)
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2e. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:20 pm ((PDT))

I don't think my response to this posted for some reason. I was wondering what makes a
good meal? I am feeding patties for one meal and parts for another.
Jennifer

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
> Jen,
> You're not giving us very much info. For all intents it should be ok, but you should give
more meat than just a leg. How long on the diet, what have you been feeding so far?
What is your main source of meat I mean.? A leg is good for munching, but not enough
meat. The bone to meat should be 10%bone and then meat. A leg is too much bone and
not enough meat for a meal, but for a snack, just fine.:) If your dog is a gulper, the leg
might go down too fast, so you might need bigger pieces, like the half of the bird, so it
has to chew it's dinner. Get the picture? Hope that helps.
> jeni
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

2f. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

> New to rawfeeding and wondering if it is okay to feed a turkey
drumstick to my dog. She is a
> 50 pound pitbull/boxer mix.
> Jen

Hi Jen, I have a 35 pound APBT and he loves his turkey drumsticks. I
feed it with a little turkey liver and turkey heart.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (16)
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3a. Re: Newbie reassurance & questions
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

Mary,
You have the right idea, but think bigger. Your dogs are big enough for larger meals and once a day if you want. Say half a small whole chicken each for a meal, with the organs saved for the meal once a week. And yeah, they don't really chew a whole lot, because they don't have to, that's why you give them bigger pieces, so they have to, to break it up. They would have to chew it up, the half of a chicken to eat it.
And bones are really only about 10% of the diet, so you can buy more meatier stuff, like boneless chicken, or pork shoulder, when you are ready to try other meats. Not ground, but the whole meat pieces, and watch for sales, like breasts/thighs that are boneless, because too much bones, could be the cause of the runny pooos. And no poos for several days is not unusual so don't worry about that either, it's normal. The dog takes from the diet all it needs and only pooos out what it doesn't, so that's the nice thing about the diet.
If you take off the wings and necks for the cats, leave the whole bird for each dog, and let them eat the whole thing, or stop when they are hungry and save what is left for the next meal. That is fine too. Some people let their animals have a nice big meal and then have a few small ones in the next couple of days following the big one. It teaches them that food will always be there, and not to be expecting it at certain times too. Their stomachs get accustomed to feedings and you can get them out of it just as easily.
If you do pork for instance, get some big shoulder pieces and they can eat all the meat off and then have a huge bone to chew on for a while. Pigs feet are quiet fun and meaty for big dogs too. Mine are great danes and feet have saved my house from being chewed down. And ribs of any kind beef or pork are great the whole rack, let them eat them apart, work for entertainment, not for meat, never enough on them. But mine love the bones too, and so far there isn't a bone my two can't take care of. Some people say certain bones are a nono, but you will have to make up your own mind on that one, only you know your dogs. The sharp ones can be removed if you like and tossed, but we toss nothing here.:)
So, don't be concerned, you're doing great, give more meaty meat, some chicken without bones, and the runny pooos should clear up, and keep it up, they will be fine.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4. Bear meat/parts
Posted by: "erica" ericagordon@sbcglobal.net ericagsweet
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

Hello! Sophie is doing awesome on week 2 of raw feeding btw! I just
received a phone call regarding bear parts. My Dad is on the list & a
bear was hit by a car. He is processing it & is saving me the head,
liver, lungs & heart. We will freeze it first & won't be introducing
it for a bit but just wanted to know if there were any other parts
that he should save for us. He is keeping the meat & will share some
of that with us also. Any info ASAP would be much appreciated as he
is doing it as we speak!
TIA!
Erica

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Vacation
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:15 pm ((PDT))

I went on vacation for 10 days ( I have a new granddaughter, :} ) In the mean time I had babysitters for my cat and dog, and they both got switched back to kibble. Now I have to start all over. How do I do this? Just start with chicken again, and go slow? I really had no diarreah or anything much to start with. Think I will now? I'm not a very happy camper right now, my poor furbabies!

Linda

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Vacation
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Bummer, but not all that bad. Maybe go with chicken for a couple of days and make sure
they are still digestively good. If no puddle poos, I'd say go back to where you left off. 10
days shouldn't be long enough to have to start from scratch IMO. My sister's chi was rawfed
when he lived with me, but eats crap in a bag now that they moved out. When I puppy sit
(every few moths) he eats the same variety as the big boys do and he doesn't have any
problems even though he's been eating ki**le in the meantime.

Congrats on the new granddaughter!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...> wrote:
>
> I went on vacation for 10 days ( I have a new granddaughter, :} ) In the mean time I had
babysitters for my cat and dog, and they both got switched back to kibble. Now I have to
start all over. How do I do this? Just start with chicken again, and go slow?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:23 pm ((PDT))

>First he
> told me that he does not recommend raw feeding at all because the
> dogs could get samonella and they are not protected against it like
> most say.

Some dogs are susceptible to salmonella, yes. But as salmonella is
EVERYWHERE, it's hardly something you can avoid. Besides, I'd be much more
concerned about things like the recent treat recalls for salmonella than I
would be for raw chicken...

> Then he went on to tell me that freezing the meat for a
> period of time would not kill all of the parasites either.

That's true, there are some parasites that are resistant to freezing. Are
you likely to run into them? Not really...*maybe*, if you're feeding wild
boar, bear, etc...stuff from the grocery store? Nah...

>He said,
> dogs are not like wolves, they are domesticated and different.

I'm afraid that science disagrees with him on this one. Dogs ARE wolves and
wolves are dogs - they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring
generation after generation. The only real difference is their outer
appearance - their guts are not domesticated.

>And he said, besides, wolves don't live much longer than
> 3 or 4 in the wild because of their food intake, whereas domestic
> dogs and cats live into their teens.

Oh dear. I don't know whether I should laugh or cry at this one. Wolves
die young because of many things, but diet isn't one of them. Humans, loss
of habitat, loss of prey sources, living in the elements, having to protect
territory and young, having to deal with food that fights back and will kick
you in the head if it can...the list goes on. Life in the wild is tough,
but there are wolves who have managed to do it well into their teens,
despite the hardships. Fact is, dogs can live into their 20's and cats into
their 30's - ask your vet why ours aren't doing so regularly?

>>I told him that since I started
> on raw, the stools are much smaller and her muzzle cleared up. He
> then told me that she probably just had some acne and it cleared on
> its own, not because of the food, this was after telling me it was an
> allergy. He told me to buy a dog food with the smallest number of
> ingredientts. Well, I thought to myself, raw food, 1 ingredient, has
> to be best, but I didn't say that to him.

Good for you! You've got good common sense working for you, there! Keep up
the good work.

Casey

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:52 pm ((PDT))

Aaaah Deb,

How could ever give him another bite of k***ble after a show
like that, lol.

Do some good and donate it to a shelter!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:

BTW, he was just so cute to watch after he downed his first "raw meaty
bone" yesterday. He fairly pranced around the house and yard, head
held high, obviously thinking to himself "Aaaah, this is the life!"

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Katie!
The little guys sometimes need 'little' food; try him on
Game Hen. They're really chickens that are slaughtered at a younger
age, softer, smaller bones and parts.

You can also put chicken pieces in a plastic bag, wrap 'em in an old
dish towel, and whack the cr*p out of 'um with a heavy meat
tenderizing mallet. ; )

Ribboning strips of meat off the bone with kitchen shears works great
to help them learn how to 'attack' a meal.

You can also feed the heart and gizzards that come with the chickens,
good meatymeat. If you want to feed the liver, cut up eensy teensy
tiny bits and add one to a meal.

After working on Game Hens or beat up chicken parts for a week or two,
he should start developing some jaw strength, and when his adult teeth
come in; Look Out! : )
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Oops; I mean 16 weeks! But yes he's a baby baby...the ribboning idea
> is super (I searched it). I'll pick up some breasts tonight; he'll
> have that instead of his turkey tail. :)

Messages in this topic (14)
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8b. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi Katie,

Congrats on the new addition!

I'm owned by a 10 lb Peke, lol......He lets me live here and feed
him.......

Serously though other than chicken bones, cornish hens and some
really soft rabbit rib bones he can't do much damage to
bones..........

If I want him to have a variety of bones, ie, turkey, pork, I have
to crunch them up with a pair of hand held gardening shears or a
hammer. If that doesn't work, then I don't feed them....He will try
chewing on them sometimes, but after 30 minutes or so I pick them
up as he gets nowhere with them and gets frustrated....
He loves chewing on chicken feet, but one will last him a lifetime
as he's not able to bite through them, although he chews and chews,
lol.....

Mine does have a damaged disc in his neck, so not sure if that may be
part of the reason he's not a stronger chewer.......

Hope this helps, but just remember Pekes are known for having a mind
of their own, lol..........

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pelle567" <krjoyner@...> wrote:

my new addition to the family is a pekingese.
He loves his raw food, but he DOES not have the
ability to chew up his bones like my other big kids. Does anyone feed
dogs with flat faces that can give me some tips and hints.

Thanks, Katie

Messages in this topic (14)
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8c. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

> I have 2 APBT, a Golden/Beagle mix and my new addition to the
family
> is a pekingese. He loves his raw food, but he DOES not have the
> ability to chew up his bones like my other big kids. Does anyone
feed
> dogs with flat faces that can give me some tips and hints. >
> Thanks,
> Katie
>

Hi Katie, I have an APBT and 2 pugs. All three love their raw diet
but I have to admit that watching the APBT and the pugs eat leaves
much to be desired in the way of crunching and tearing lol. I feed
the pugs anything and everything and they do fine. But, when the
bone, of let's say goat, is too sharp I bang it with a hammer.
Chicken necks I have had to hold for them so that they eat piece by
piece. Rabbit is great for them, they have soft bones. Tomorrow they
get turkey drumstick with hearts and liver. The drumstick is cut up
but the bone is not hard so they will be fine. Sometimes I feed twice
a day and when it's an all meat day I have to cut it in small hunks
or they will choke (they tend to gulp). I'm a newbie and so are the
dogs therefore all the extra help on my part :) They are catching on
though, so will yours.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (14)
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9a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi Peg,

Duhhh.....I realized what you meant after I asked that stupid question! :))

Softer stool is normal when feeding a meat only meal so that was nothing to
be alarmed about!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Peggy" <peggy070605@sbcglobal.net>

Hey Sandee,

Oh, no, I meant no transition from Kibble to Raw. I am feeding them
chicken, so I'll do it for a week. I noticed their stool was more
healthy looking from the chicken w/bones. After the ground beef,
their stool seemed to be soft and runny, so I don't know what that's
all about. But either way, yes, I'm feeding them mostly chicken.

Messages in this topic (9)
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9b. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

Also, did anyone else feel as if they were going to
> vomit the first time they fed their dogs raw food? I felt so grossed
> out, eck. My hubby was just fine with it , but not me. Ew. Maybe
it'll
> be better tomorrow. =)

Hi there, well not vomit but certainly very anxious. I even took the
food away from them before they finished (they just took a few bites,
actually), lol. I was also sweating thinking that my dogs couldn't "do"
this diet. Too hard-core. But not vomit.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

**also posted on rawcat**

Hi, my cats--knock wood--seem great, but I'm suddenly paranoid about the
phosphorous (and other minerals) balance after reading some of the resources and
comments lately, especially after reading the recommended

http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

I'm worried about how the cat's bones can get demineralized if s/he hasn't eaten balanced,
and you don't know it until it's too late. Up til now I've been pretty relaxed, deliberately,
and I hope I haven't been too relaxed.

The background:
My two boys--Brooklyn street rescue domestic shorthair mutts approximately 3 and
5 years old--have now been on prey model diet for a month and a half, having switched
from a combo of wellness canned and raw according to b.a.r.f. model with veggies etc.
So far they seem to be doing great, silkier coats than ever, even more energy (which I
didn't think possible), and slimmer tummies. Oh, and more affectionate (which I also didn't
think was possible!).

Anything boneless, they'll happily nosh on, skin and all if applicable. Liver is their favorite
food. But the only bones they will really eat so far are fish bones. I tried the tough love
approach with chicken backs, wings, drumsticks, and small lamb bones, but each time
they held out an entire day and I didn't want to fast healthy very active cats in need of
nourishment. I also tried the application of bribes like water-packed sardine bits to bony
chicken, but they just licked those off. I've chopped wings and backs slightly, as size
evidently matters to my boys, and they do approach these at least, but then the most
they'll do is gnaw flesh off the bone and leave the bone, and that they'll only do if I make
the pieces roughly the size of mice.

Fish, however, they'll eat bones and all, although a whole mackerel is too much food--
usually I cut a whole (fresh, never frozen, degutted but head intact) mackerel into 4-6
pieces, which is 2-4 meals for the 2 cats. Also if I slice the mackerel's head in half
lengthwise (so each cat gets an eye and half the brain, etc) they'll eat the whole thing.

OK, the questions:

Question 1:
I'm worried about variety of bone sources, do people think it would it be a lesser evil to
grind chicken bones sometimes to get them to eat that, or would it be ok to just have fish
bones (which they will eat whole) for the entire 10% of the working ratio of muscle 80%,
organ 10% and bone 10%?

Question 2: Am I correct in thinking the fish head is pretty bony, or is that
in fact cartilage??? Fish bones are so soft, I can't tell the difference. (And, is cartilage also a
good source of calcium???) And, should I be counting the fish head as primarily bone
or organ, if it has eyes and brain in it??

Question 3: With the 80% /10% / 10% ratio, when we say 10% bones, do we mean 10% of
total weight of all food offered is pure bone, or just 10% of food fed overall is super bony
food, like chicken wings or, hopefully, fish heads?

Incidentally so far, for muscle meats they are getting a mix of chicken (both
dark and light, with skin on), well-marbled pork, lamb and fish (usually mackerel or what
they call brown trout here, which is a salmonid). Not much beef at the moment. Organs,
they are getting chicken and lamb livers. I'm working on getting some rabbit and in the
future maybe will raise some myself.

Question 4: Does the above sound like a good variety of muscles and organs for cats?

Question 5: My cats eat 2x/day. The way my brain works, it would be best for me
to try to achieve a good balance of nutrients over the course of each week. Usually I just
give a different meat each meal, and try to give fish only once or twice a week, as
I've heard too much can interfere with thiamine absorption (I think), so the rest of the
meals are spread out kind of equally among the other meats. If the fish are the only bones,
is 1-2x/week sufficent, or better to put a little at each meal? And, can anyone suggest a
good balance of how many times per week of each of these different meats to ensure good
phosphorous (and magnesium, taurine etc) balance? Do I need to vary organs more? Is
beef necessary for cats? I'm living in ireland and it's been hard to get chickens with all the
organs, I buy the livers separately.

Question 6: livers, some weeks I give a little thumbnail piece with each meal, other times, I
just give one or two meals per week that are mostly organ (they LOVE chicken livers and
happily eat a meal solely of liver without gastrointestinal distress). Is one or the other
method of proportioning organ to muscle and bone better for any reason?

I know in the wild, felidae do not have a scale and calculator, nor a consistently well-
stocked supermarket, and I want to break out of the whole medical precision model when
it comes to living and eating, but, like so many of us I'm sure, I have these fears from
having grown up in a culture that worships the (alleged) Expert; and, we all know what it's
like to love these little furry beings so much we can't stand the thought of having done the
wrong thing...

Sorry if this is long, I couldn't find any of this info in archived messages, and I tried to
organize my questions...

thanks everybody, I love this list!!!

Sarah, with feline assistance from Henry and Ivan

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sarah!
OK, now, Take a breath! ; )

> OK, the questions:

**** 10% edible bone in the diet isn't much, over time it will balance
out. I bet you're close now. NO, don't grind. Can you get younger
chickens, we call 'em Game Hens in the states? Smaller parts, smaller,
softer bones. What about quail, or other small game birds? ****

> Question 1:
> I'm worried about variety of bone sources, do people think it would
it be a lesser evil to
> grind chicken bones sometimes to get them to eat that, or would it
be OK to just have fish
> bones (which they will eat whole) for the entire 10% of the working
ratio of muscle 80%,
> organ 10% and bone 10%?
>
**** Fish heads are bony. IMO, bone and cartilage are just a matter of
degree, both are good for the critter, and I count both together in my
"edible bone count". I'd count a fish head as 60-30 - 60% bone, 30%
organ (fish brains are pretty small ; ) ) and 10% meatymeat. ****

> Question 2: Am I correct in thinking the fish head is pretty bony,
or is that
> in fact cartilage??? Fish bones are so soft, I can't tell the
difference. (And, is cartilage also a
> good source of calcium???) And, should I be counting the fish head
as primarily bone
> or organ, if it has eyes and brain in it??
>
***** 10% EDIBLE bone from all body parts, irregardless - I don't
count bone that is fed, but not consumed. ****

> Question 3: With the 80% /10% / 10% ratio, when we say 10% bones,
do we mean 10% of
> total weight of all food offered is pure bone, or just 10% of food
fed overall is super bony
> food, like chicken wings or, hopefully, fish heads?
>
**** Sounds OK to me. Smaller critters for smaller carnivores are
appropriate, I wouldn't worry about the beef. How about beef or veal
heart? Or lamb or goat heart? Good source of taurine. If you could
stand to, you might consider feeding mice. That way, they'd get all
the organs. And, if you raise your own rabbits, or can get them from
the source, undressed, they'll be getting the organs from those, also.
****

> Question 4: Does the above sound like a good variety of muscles and
organs for cats? - Incidentally so far, for muscle meats they are
getting a mix of chicken (both
> dark and light, with skin on), well-marbled pork, lamb and fish
(usually mackerel or what
> they call brown trout here, which is a salmonid). Not much beef at
the moment. Organs,
> they are getting chicken and lamb livers. I'm working on getting
some rabbit and in the
> future maybe will raise some myself.
>
**** You can be a *little* more relaxed about this, you know; they're
getting a pretty good variety, of protein and body part and organ.
Remember the axiom; "Balance Over Time", not days, not a week - but
WEEKS and months. You'll have the rest of their long lives to achieve
balance. It's all in there. Feed whatever comes out of the freezer and
fridge when you stick your hand in, it'll be OK. : ) ****

> Question 5: My cats eat 2x/day. The way my brain works, it would be
best for me
> to try to achieve a good balance of nutrients over the course of
each week. Usually I just
> give a different meat each meal, and try to give fish only once or
twice a week, as
> I've heard too much can interfere with thiamine absorption (I
think), so the rest of the
> meals are spread out kind of equally among the other meats. If the
fish are the only bones,
> is 1-2x/week sufficient, or better to put a little at each meal?
And, can anyone suggest a
> good balance of how many times per week of each of these different
meats to ensure good
> phosphorous (and magnesium, taurine etc) balance? Do I need to vary
organs more? Is
> beef necessary for cats? I'm living in Ireland and it's been hard to
get chickens with all the
> organs, I buy the livers separately.
>
**** Over time, liver should be about 5% of the total diet. A little
too much now, you cut back later, NPs. As long as they tolerate it,
or you don't mind cleaning up the litter box, it don't matter how you
feed it. Really. ****

> Question 6: livers, some weeks I give a little thumbnail piece with
each meal, other times, I
> just give one or two meals per week that are mostly organ (they LOVE
chicken livers and
> happily eat a meal solely of liver without gastrointestinal
distress). Is one or the other
> method of proportioning organ to muscle and bone better for any reason?
>
> I know in the wild, felidae do not have a scale and calculator, nor
a consistently well-
> stocked supermarket, and I want to break out of the whole medical
precision model when
> it comes to living and eating, but, like so many of us I'm sure, I
have these fears from
> having grown up in a culture that worships the (alleged) Expert;
and, we all know what it's
> like to love these little furry beings so much we can't stand the
thought of having done the
> wrong thing...
>
> Sorry if this is long, I couldn't find any of this info in archived
messages, and I tried to
> organize my questions...

**** YQW. Just give yourself a break, and ENJOY the process -
planning, searching, buying, FEEDING, etc., - enjoying them enjoying
their meals!!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
>
> thanks everybody, I love this list!!!
>
> Sarah, with feline assistance from Henry and Ivan
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sarah!
Source for whole prey for small carnivores;
http://www.livefoods.co.uk/index.php?cPath=24
TC
Giselle
with Bea in new Jersey

Messages in this topic (3)
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11. Albertson's ribs price correction
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:57 pm ((PDT))

Sorry, all, the price of .10/lb. that was posted previously by someone
else is incorrect. It's $1/lb. I just went to Albertson's in Seattle
and didn't see any ribs at that price and couldn't find it in the
flyer, so I came home and looked online. This is from their web site:

Country Style Ribs Pork Shoulder or Beef Back Ribs
Max Pak, Beef Back Ribs Previously Frozen
10 LBS. FOR $10 with your Preferred Savings Card
thru Aug 28

Laurie

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. first raw meal this evening....
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:27 pm ((PDT))

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: first raw meal this evening....
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

They should be fine. There might be some loose stool, but if they had their last taste of
ki**le this morning, it won't bother them. Congrats on switching!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "coriowen" <COwen98@...> wrote:

> Should I worry
> about any of them possibly getting sick tonight if they had kibble
> early this morning? I didn't know if I should have waited 24 hours
> before feeding them raw and not feeding them kibble.

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11942

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
From: cypressbunny
1b. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

2a. Re: Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
From: Sandee Lee

3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cypressbunny

4a. Re: Country style pork ribs at Kroger store.......
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

5a. Re: leaving bones with pup
From: Olga

6a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Sandee Lee
6b. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: pelle567
6c. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: cypressbunny
6d. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Sandee Lee
6e. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Laurie Swanson
6f. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Sandee Lee
6g. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: pelle567

7a. Re: pork country style ribs (was: shopping the ads)
From: blechatlb@aol.com

8a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: tottime47
8b. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: Peggy
8d. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: Peggy

9a. Re: Need reassurance
From: eyed_blue

10. Re: PUPPY FEEDING/Was Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Sandee Lee

11. Newbie reassurance & questions
From: Mary Whetsel

12a. Re: Does it matter?
From: carnesbill
12b. Re: Does it matter?
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

13a. Re: Probiotics, again
From: tottime47

14a. Turkey legs
From: jennifer_ricotta

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvthegsd" <kdnhs@...> wrote:
>
> He told me to buy a dog food with the smallest number of
> ingredientts. Well, I thought to myself, raw food, 1 ingredient, has
> to be best, but I didn't say that to him.

*** Too bad, it would probably have produced an interesting look on
his face. That gave me a chuckle.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

Kris,
You got it, 1 ingredient, and then add some luvin!
The vets all over say the same and we hear it all the time. And they don't get salmonilla, they can handle the bacteria, so no worries, so can we.:) And the reasons wolfs don't live long in the wild, (I have a friend that does wolf rescue here in Ca) is that man kills them! Not the animals they eat! All the wolfs I have seen on the rescue ranch, are healthy and out living all of us:)
Keep up the faith, you're doing a great job, and the problem cleared up, it was probably bad kibble, and you know the vet couldn't answer that one for you either:) But all kibble is bad in my book. Yep, my dogs are domesticated, and they are carnivores, like they are supposed to be, and my vet thinks they are omnivores, but we agree to disagree, because otherwise, he's a good vet. And he see's that my dogs are in great shape and health.
Don't usually have to worry about freezing meat, except to keep it for long periods of time, because the parasites, don't bother the dogs, or us, and the meat you do freeze like fish and fresh kill, venison, elk, stuff you get from other than the butcher, dogs can handle too. The fish is one I'm not good at, but others can tell you about, there are some concerns with mercury and things, but geeze he didn't say anything about that? Nope. But most fish is ok, because the stuff we normally get our dogs is people grade from grocery stores or butchers. Already fda approved, so if it's good enough for people, why wouldn't we feed it to our dogs? And for them, raw is better, so we want them to have the best, so we give it to them! You're doing great, keep it up. We love you!
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:27 pm ((PDT))

Great decision to get this pup on an appropriate diet. Getting started is
easy....buy a few chickens, cut into quarters, hand to pup. Feed him 2-3%
of his expected adult weight per day. Once he has adjusted to digesting the
chicken, you will slowly begin adding in other protein sources and some
organs.

The key to a healthy diet is providing a variety of animal parts and protein
sources, but for now don't worry about that. Just get him started and read
the list messages and archives. You might want to look at some of these
sites.....
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net - check out the recipe section :)
http://www.rawmeatybones.com

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "karimlizette" <karimlizette@gmail.com>

I have a 10 mo dane, Bronco and want to start him on raw. He has been
on Nutro & Eagle Pack and just developed folliculitis. Previously, when
about 6 mos he had puppy mange. With everything that has been going on
with the dog food industry I feel like I have made a wise choice. Is
there someone with Dane experience that can help me get started. I am
worried about his health and want to do the right thing.

Messages in this topic (2)
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3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cooniefish@... wrote:
>
>
> He told me that the hills diet has branched chain amino acids
which the liver
> can handle better than aromatic amino acids and on and on. He
really does have
> his own reasoning.

*** He is right about the BCAAs being better than AAAs for the
liver. Funny how vets can be so educated and so clueless at the same
time. Next time he mentions it, you could mention that as a rule,
meat has more BCAAs than non-meat sources, and fewer AAAs. So, stick
to raw meats for the sake of your dog's liver, lol. Of course, AAAs
are essential amino acids for the dog, so we wouldn't really want to
completely exclude them from the diet.

*** If it wasn't so harmful to the poor animals that eat their
products, I would be constantly amused at the breakthroughs that
Hill's continues to make--things that nature already knew and
provided.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (40)
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4a. Re: Country style pork ribs at Kroger store.......
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:29 pm ((PDT))

Whoooohoooooooo for the hubby, he's a keeper!
Jeni

----- Original Message ----
From: tottime47 <tottime@aol.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 8:34:11 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Country style pork ribs at Kroger store.......

Hi All,

Just had to post this!

Hubby's turning into a hunter too! Yea!

He just brought home a hugh package of country style pork ribs.
Now, I know some say don't buy them as they have small / cut bones,
but these are really something... .....
10 ribs in the package, 6 have NO BONE at all, the average weight of
one rib was over 7 oz and to top it all off, they were on sale/marked
down and he got the whole package for $5!(normal price was $14.69)
I'm sending him out hunting more often, lol...

So shop early, check those meat markdowns and look for meaty ribs!

Carol, Charkee & Moli (bring um on!)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: leaving bones with pup
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michael Moore <m-tak@...> wrote:
>
> >>I often give my pup frozen bones if I am out for the day - they keep
> her occupied for ages.<<
>
> Okay, this statement has been bothering me, so I'll comment -- IMO,
> puppies and adult dogs for that matter, should be supervised when
> eating bones.

I completely agree with this. I don't watch my dogs eat anymore
(unless they get something really cool, like a pig's head *grin*) but
I keep an ear out and usually wander in and out during their dinner.
You never know what could happen, and I would feel terrible if I
wasn't there.

Olga

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))

Hi Katie,

You might want to do an archive search....I know there are several pug
feeders on the list. I would think he should be able to eat chicken bones
with no problem and since edible bone is such a small portion of the diet,
that may be enough bone content.

Just don't fall into the temptation to grind his food! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "pelle567" <krjoyner@firstam.com>

I have 2 APBT, a Golden/Beagle mix and my new addition to the family
is a pekingese. He loves his raw food, but he DOES not have the
ability to chew up his bones like my other big kids. Does anyone feed
dogs with flat faces that can give me some tips and hints.

Messages in this topic (11)
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6b. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "pelle567" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:07 pm ((PDT))

Thanks so much everyone!!! I'm hitting up Albertsons if I can get
away from work.

Barley (peke; 14wks 11lbs) chews his little heart out, but he
doesn't have any of his adult teeth yet so he's not accomplishing
much. If I give him a chicken foot or a wing (pulled apart) he does
some damage, but only to the flesh. I usually take it from him
after about 20 minutes to check if he's getting anywhere and it'll
just look like someone poked it a whole bunch of times with a dull
pencil; and at that point I cut it up with poultry scissors. He then
precedes to gulps it down...

I've thought of cutting it up to begin but he LOVES trying to do it
himself, so I feel kind of bad if I don't at least give him the
opportunity to try.

I guess basically I'm trying to figure out if there are others out
there feeding raw to there smooshed faced dogs with success.

Katie

Messages in this topic (11)
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6c. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:27 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "basilbourque" <wildbasil@...>
wrote:
>
> Costs between $3 to $4 per pound, including delivery.

*** Wow, that's a lot to spend on dog food, I think.

> For occasional treats, I have been getting beef back ribs for
$2.50/lb from Whole Foods
> Market, also known as Whole Paycheck. ;-)

*** Wouldn't other types of whole meats make more sense than Darwin's?
Would be cheaper, and would leave out the unnecessary veggies, plus
offer more challenge at meal time, more dental benefits, and be
healthier overall. Why pay more for less?

*** And, by the way, there are members in my buying group that do
Darwin orders monthly at a 15% discount. Better than kibble I suppose,
although I still don't get it.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (11)
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6d. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

Oh, he's only 14 weeks???? In that case you might want to try smashing the
bone a bit. Chicken breasts have nice soft bones and lots of meat....that
might be a good option. You also can "ribbon" the meat to make it easier
for those little teeth!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "pelle567" <krjoyner@firstam.com>

Messages in this topic (11)
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6e. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

Oh, the peke is just a baby! :-) That explains it! I don't think
that's so much a brachycephalic issue, but just his age and size. I
haven't fed a puppy prey model (mine was on pre-packaged raw). I would
suggest bone-in chicken breast, though--those are the smallest/softest
bones other than fish or maybe some parts of rabbit. Again, though, to
me, it doesn't really sound like it has much, if anything, to do with
him having a smashed face. I think he will do fine as he grows and
learns how to eat. You might need to make it a bit easier for him for
now, though. Maybe some more experienced puppy feeders will chime in.

Btw, I haven't verified the Albertson's sale, but the original poster
thought it started yesterday or today, so you probably have almost a
week to get there!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (11)
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6f. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

That's a pretty penny to pay for a ground up mixture over which you have no
control of ingredients (30% of which is inappropriate for a carnivore) or
ratios of meat/bone/organs (most often high in bone, lacking meat). You have
a big dog...feed big food.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "basilbourque" <wildbasil@pobox.com>

I have been quite happy for over a year feeding my big dog prepared frozen
raw meals
delivered in styrofoam boxes by the local Seattle company Darwin's Natural
Pet Products.
http://www.darwinspet.com/

Messages in this topic (11)
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6g. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "pelle567" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:14 pm ((PDT))

++++MOd note: please ensure all emails are signed ++++++++++

Oops; I mean 16 weeks! But yes he's a baby baby...the ribboning idea
is super (I searched it). I'll pick up some breasts tonight; he'll
have that instead of his turkey tail. :)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, he's only 14 weeks???? In that case you might want to try
smashing the
> bone a bit. Chicken breasts have nice soft bones and lots of
meat....that
> might be a good option. You also can "ribbon" the meat to make it
easier
> for those little teeth!

Messages in this topic (11)
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7a. Re: pork country style ribs (was: shopping the ads)
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:18 pm ((PDT))

**Those are good if you de-bone them. The bones are too small for most dogs, and cut into sharp, pointy pieces--could be a choking/poking hazard. :-) **
--------------------------------

I feed country pork ribs all the time to my three (145 lbs, 100 lbs and 70 lbs) and have never had an issue at all. They love them.

TracyB?

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

So did you throw out the Pedigree and feed the maggots?
They're full of protein, lol.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> You know what grossed me out? Seeing a seething pile of very healthy
> maggots atop an opened can of Pedigree dogfood grossed me out.
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

"tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> So did you throw out the Pedigree and feed the maggots?
> They're full of protein, lol.
*****
Um, I mentioned that to the PetSmart associate after showing him
Exhibit A. I don't believe the kid was amused. I don't think he knew
what I was talking about.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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8c. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "Peggy" peggy070605@sbcglobal.net speakingforfurry
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:31 pm ((PDT))

EEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww. None of the cans were open, and I'm
trying to give all of the stuff away for free on Craigslist.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> So did you throw out the Pedigree and feed the maggots?
> They're full of protein, lol.
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@> wrote:
>
> > You know what grossed me out? Seeing a seething pile of very
healthy
> > maggots atop an opened can of Pedigree dogfood grossed me out.
> > Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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8d. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "Peggy" peggy070605@sbcglobal.net speakingforfurry
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hey Sandee,

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Peg,
>
> What do you mean there was no transition?
>
> You may run into problems by feeding too much variety too quickly.
Best to
> feed one protein source for a week or so until they adjust.

Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Re: Need reassurance
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi there, Iv just recently started on raw as well and dont have a
large amount of freezer space so cant buy in large (or expensive)
amounts of meat but here are a few tips I have learned over the last
couple of weeks.

Get together with a few people who are pretty much in your area and
buy the meats that are minced with ground bone in them (or other),
sold as a pet food. This way you dont need to buy the whole minimum
order yourself, you can all chip in for the amount you will be
taking home and meet at delivery point to pick up your own parts of
the order and pay back the person who is willing to be invoiced by
the company in cash, I dont know suppliers in your area but if you
check www.landywoods.co.uk you will see the type of supplier Im
talking about. This way you get really good value.

If you go to ASDA (which is Walmart over here)they mark the chicken
etc down if they are out of date the next day (think after 10pm).
They are only £2.00 to start with so pretty cheap. Also in the
freezer dept. you can buy bags of frozen chicken quarters and lamb
mince for about £2.00 a bag. In the fridge isle you can get a 1.5kg
box of chicken wings for under £2.00. I would assume you Walmarts
operate in a similar way.

Also if you are a regular customer of a take-away, restraunt or
other food place they might have a bag of fresh meat trimmings that
will only be getting thrown out anyway, they might give them to you
if you explain they are for the dogs.

My butcher will keep all the bones from a lamb for me that I ask for
if I buy the neck, so even if you are feeding the cheap frozen mince
from supermarket you can make up the bone content by feeding these.
Remember you can freeze bones.

I really hope these tips are of some use to you but please dont let
the pup go for longer than 12 hours without a meal as I dont think
this is healthy when they are growing. The adult dogs can go for 24
hours though.

Hope Iv been of some help,

Natalie

Messages in this topic (12)
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10. Re: PUPPY FEEDING/Was Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:55 pm ((PDT))

BTW Katie...here are a few good puppy feeding messages......
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/137170

Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "pelle567" <krjoyner@firstam.com>
>
> Barley (peke; 14wks 11lbs) chews his little heart out, but he
> doesn't have any of his adult teeth yet so he's not accomplishing
> much. If I give him a chicken foot or a wing (pulled apart) he does
> some damage, but only to the flesh. I usually take it from him
> after about 20 minutes to check if he's getting anywhere and it'll
> just look like someone poked it a whole bunch of times with a dull
> pencil; and at that point I cut it up with poultry scissors. He then
> precedes to gulps it down...

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Newbie reassurance & questions
Posted by: "Mary Whetsel" chickiboo@gmail.com cooljavachic
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

I just joined the group and have just started raw feeding my 2 dogs
chicken leg quarters - cheap & seemed like a good place to start.
They have been on this since Sunday night. They are each getting one
leg & thigh twice a day. I started this because my last 2 bags of dog
food gave them both the runs. So, not trusting that anymore here I am
with raw feeding.

So keeping in mind they had issues before starting the new diet, I
haven't been too concerned by the fact that they have diarrhea. The
amounts are smaller though which is nice. Still, I'm wondering how
long I should stay unconcerned. One dog (she's a 100 lb St. Bernard
mix) still has the diarrhea. The other dog (a 85lb rather nervous
golden/newfie mix) seems just fine activity wise and all, but hasn't
gone at all since Monday afternoon. I have read there is less waste,
but is that acceptable?

Also, they do chew the bones, but they do not do a lot of tearing of
the meat. The legs tend to go first are eaten bottom up. But then
they seem to spend a lot of time chewing the thigh up (lots of bone
crunching) and then swallowing it as one big chewed up piece. They
are big enough that this isn't a problem for them to do, but should I
be somehow encouraging smaller pieces?

Lastly, should I move to whole chickens for the dogs? I'm confused by
the whole bone/meat ratio and how much is in what. Is it OK to stick
to leg/thighs for a main diet and start tossing in other things on
occasion for variety? I'd like to go whole chicken, but take the
wings & necks for the cats, breasts for us, and leg & thighs for the
dogs. Since we'd just buy the breasts anyway, that's like getting the
other stuff for free. :-)

-Mary

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Does it matter?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:13 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:
>
> Or is a whole chicken preferred? Just curious.
>

I prefer to buy chicken leg quarters and backs only. Its much cheaper
that way and you don't have to chop them up. They come ready to
feed. :) I get backs for $.25/lb and quarters for $.43/lb. I can't
get whole chickens for anywhere near that. With 2 giant breed dogs,
it saves me a lot of money.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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12b. Re: Does it matter?
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:30 pm ((PDT))

Brandi,
You're getting good at this, the shopping thing, the whole is great, but fryers are good too, get what is cheap, do what is easy and it works.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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13a. Re: Probiotics, again
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi Deb,

If that were true, I have a dog that would never quit, lol......
I have a Pekinese and they have no snout......

As for the probotics, I'd go to the health food store and buy a good
human grade probotic mix and put him on that....yogurt can cause
loose stools and tummy upset all by itself as it's a dairy product.
So can transitioning to raw instead of changing over
completely at one time. Different digestion rates can play havoc
with a dogs tummy.......

I do agree that the farting may be caused by a lack of good bacteria
in his stomach.

The reason I think this is I recently had to put my dog on antibotics
for an infection.
One of the side affects of the antibotics was, he starting passing
lots of gas. After I asked here and mentioned it to my vet ,he gave
him a probotic to help, it did immediately. I have since learned that
anytime a dog is on antibotics they usually need a probotic too as
antibotics destroy not only the infection but all the good bacteria
right along with it...

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:

we ran across a suggestion to add a tablespoon of fat-free, plain
yogurt to the dog's meals to cut down on the farting.
I suspect that once we complete the transition to raw he may not
need the probiotics, however.

Our vet explained that the reason Boxers
pass so much gas is due to their short snouts and taking in a lot of
air with their food.

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Turkey legs
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

New to rawfeeding and wondering if it is okay to feed a turkey drumstick to my dog. She is a
50 pound pitbull/boxer mix.
Jen

Messages in this topic (10)
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