Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 21, 2007

Friday, September 21, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12055

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
From: Tina Berry
1b. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
1c. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
From: Laura Atkinson
1d. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
From: john payne

2a. Re: NEW TO RAW
From: Yasuko herron
2b. Re: NEW TO RAW
From: Belinda van de Loo
2c. Re: NEW TO RAW
From: Belinda van de Loo

3a. Re: some tartar on his teeth
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
4b. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
From: rottinluvr

5. New-- with Puppy and diarrhea
From: Shelly Giuffre

6a. Frozen ??
From: Pam Staley
6b. Re: Frozen ??
From: Tracy P-C
6c. Re: Frozen ??
From: Andrea

7a. Re: New raw feeder
From: Andrea
7b. Re: New raw feeder
From: Yasuko herron
7c. Re: New raw feeder
From: Yasuko herron

8. Doxie coming home from knee surgery
From: Pam Staley

9a. Re: Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
From: ms1616emc

10. Re New rawfeeder (re-post)
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Re: All In...
From: carolejc2007

12a. Re: Species of tripe
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Re: milk-replacer in litter of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
From: Caren OConnor

14a. Re: Fasting a 7 mo old pup?
From: Tina Berry

15. Constipation??
From: Virginia Snider

Messages
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1a. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT))

One of mine only eats frozen liver - if it's thawed and squishy he spits it
out :) his sire did the same thing for awhile but now he eats it thawed.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (24)
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1b. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

I haven't actually tried this yet, but I have a new secret plan (after four years of failed attempts) to introduce my dog Molly to raw liver she can love. I have some fresh green tripe, and some fresh raw liver. I plan to puree the chicken livers and mix them quite energetically into the big bunch o' raw tripe.

I will feed this fragrant mix sparingly, as liver is rich and I don't want her to get the squirts. I am betting heavily that the fragrance of the raw tripe will be so irresistible to her that she either will not even detect the hated liver, or she will be so compelled to consume the delicious tripe that she will not let a little bit of obnoxious liver puree stand in her way.

If this plan works, then I will gradually adjust the balance of tripe to liver until she's eating just raw liver, undeterred by the öoky factor.

Now to actually try this. Stay tuned.

Carolyn J. Garnaas amd Molly Toy Poodle - She Who Detests the Dreaded Liver (All Kinds)

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Messages in this topic (24)
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1c. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:27 am ((PDT))

My advice: make a small batch first.

On 9/21/07, Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US) <carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com> wrote:
>
> I haven't actually tried this yet, but I have a new secret plan (after four years of failed attempts) to introduce my dog Molly to raw liver she can love. I have some fresh green tripe, and some fresh raw liver. I plan to puree the chicken livers and mix them quite energetically into the big bunch o' raw tripe.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

Messages in this topic (24)
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1d. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
Posted by: "john payne" brendajohn2823@yahoo.com brendajohn2823
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

our female hates liver, raw, frozen, no way!! so i tell her Brutius ( our male ) is going to get it and she will run back to the liver and gulp it down just so he wont get it. Shes a APBT/greyhound mix with big huge brown eyes and you can see the disgust in her eyes as she swallows it!! Then she starts the gagging thing, but she manages to keep it down. Then i get " the look" like i forced her to eat it!! Now the male will eat it with no problem..he loves it!
Brenda

"Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" <carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com> wrote:

I haven't actually tried this yet, but I have a new secret plan (after four years of failed attempts) to introduce my dog Molly to raw liver she can love. I have some fresh green tripe, and some fresh raw liver. I plan to puree the chicken livers and mix them quite energetically into the big bunch o' raw tripe.

I will feed this fragrant mix sparingly, as liver is rich and I don't want her to get the squirts. I am betting heavily that the fragrance of the raw tripe will be so irresistible to her that she either will not even detect the hated liver, or she will be so compelled to consume the delicious tripe that she will not let a little bit of obnoxious liver puree stand in her way.

If this plan works, then I will gradually adjust the balance of tripe to liver until she's eating just raw liver, undeterred by the öoky factor.

Now to actually try this. Stay tuned.

Carolyn J. Garnaas amd Molly Toy Poodle - She Who Detests the Dreaded Liver (All Kinds)

----------------------------------------------------------
This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions
and are intended only for the addressee(s).
The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or
otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing,
copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may
be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe
you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and
notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice@siemens.com

Thank you

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (24)
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2a. Re: NEW TO RAW
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:19 am ((PDT))

>In the morning I feed them a little fromage blanc (cross between
>yogart and cream cheese)

Hi. Why are you feeding fromage blanc? Sometimes,if you feed too much,dog cannot torelate diary very well and cause poo prob. If you feed as treats,then,not going to be a big prob though.

> 2 pm they get their chicken quarters, legs or halves and maybe a little pork rib. In the >evening they partake of the leftover noodles, potatoes, rice, buttered bread,
>or extra raw beef, etc.

your dog get to be fed 3 times a day? You have puppy?
The dog dinner ;noodle(carb),potato(carb),rice(carb),bread(carb),and I am wondering why do you feed carb to dogs?They cannot digest food propery and make dog puggy,andpotatoes(starchy veggie) aggrevate arthritis (I think) if your dog had it.

Dog get most from meat and I think switch the all carb food to meat would be better.

> For training I give them tiny pieces of Frolic.

What is folic?

>Can eggs constitute a potrion of the protein instead of meat?

Not instead of meat. In addition to meat,bone,organ meal plus Raw Egg is beneficial.
I feed raw Egg 1 per week but it depends on people.If dog can torelate well then,you can feed more. Raw Egg,too much Egg contribute to loose poo.

>Does one just crack them and give them raw in a bowl?

Yes. Some people feed with shell but I don't. My dog getting calcium from bone already and I am ok without calcium from shell.But it is your preference.

> We are not rich and their food is costing more than ours--maybe another reason to
>head back?

Mybe meat buying group or search internet for suppliers in France or France does not have rawfeeding group list? When you go to meat people,you get meat saying that is for you,and they would not make funny face then. Usually buying bulk is cheaper.

You can try looking for meat source on net or in phonebook,and see how you can get meat from people.

yassy

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: NEW TO RAW
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com belindavandeloo
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

Hello Michal,
I applaud you for doing this for your dogs - you must love them very
much to try as hard as you are to make good meals for their species.
We live in Holland and I really understand your post about the prices
and attitudes, etc. One suggestion I have for you that I think will
help - it has helped me! You most likely have immigrant communities
in France as we do in Holland. For us it is mostly the Turkish and
they are predominantly muslim. I found a Turkish butcher not too far
(25 km) from our house and they have a wonderful variety of sheep,
goat, beef and organs and bones! If you can find a place like this
and become not just a client but a familiar customer, then you will
have a great resource for your wonderful dogs. The prices with the
butcher I know (and I give tips at times, this helps me gain the same
prices as the Turkish customers) are really quite reasonable.
Hopefully this will work for you.
Otherwise you might also try to find a slaughterhouse and our local
one actually gives (yes, dear American friends) "GIVES" away beef/cow
bones with some bits of meat on them once each week or two. I was so
amazed! My dog, a small 8 kg Westie, LOVES these bones and will
guard them with his little body as if his life depended upon it.
It took me about a year or two to actually find these places, one by
one, but "seek and you will find".
Hope this helps.
By the way, there could be other raw feeders in France if you search
on internet, etc. Our raw feeders have one specific group
called "Carnibest". Surely in Europe, where we are more health and
natural conscious, there will be such a group in France.
Good luck and if I can be of any help, just send me an email.
Blessings,
Belinda and "Honey" in Holland

Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: NEW TO RAW
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com belindavandeloo
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

Michal, One more thing... if you live close to the sea or have access
to fish, you might want to go to the market and see if there are low-
priced left-overs of raw fish... even heads, tails. Fish is great
protein and mackerel (a fatty fish) is not too expensive here in
Holland.
If you are going really RAW, then the pasta,bread, rice, etc. will have
to go. It is even better to give them cooked vegetables than starches.
Eggs are also good, but just a couple meals per week is plenty. I give
my eggs whole to my dog... even just a little old eggs, meat, etc. are
fine for the dogs.
Blessings,
Belinda and "Honey" from Holland

Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Re: some tartar on his teeth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

"Kari Carlisle" <kari@...> wrote:
>
> In the book, "Raw Meaty Bones," the author talks about this. He says
> the canine teeth are only used in the process of bringing down prey
so
> even with raw fed carnivores, the canines may not be used while
> eating.
*****
Perhaps the author has not paid close enough attention. Wolves have to
get the flesh from the bones; they do not all hunker down and gnaw side
by side. What tools rip the flesh from the bones? The canines. In
order to naturally clean canines, you need to feed meat that's big
enough to require ripping apart. I've found that hair/fur on parts--or
even hide, with pork--are great abrasives for those dingy gumlines. If
the RMBs one feeds are invariably chintzy on the meat, meals will not
be adequate cleaner-uppers.

Often it's difficult to find meaty RMBs that sufficiently challenge the
dog's canines. You may discover that in the absence of thick meaty
parts you have to brush. Mix up the menu, see what you can add from
time to time that challenges the front teeth.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

"If chicken is out I don't know where I am going to
get my bones from".

My six-pound Toy Poodle eats only chicken bones, so I feel your pain
(she eats lots of variety in meat, but only eats the bones of the little
chickens).

You could try bunny. Those bones are quite soft and chewable. My dog
won't eat bunny - it's the one menu item I allow her to refuse (actually
she was refusing it anyway, so I decided to go along with it on this one
menu item). But those bunny bones are very nice little bones for a
little doggie.

Carolyn J. Garnaas

Thank you

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Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
Posted by: "rottinluvr" rottinluv@cox.net rottinluvr
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mgitaville" <mgitaville@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "one_sojourner_one"
> <onesojourner@> wrote:
> >
> > alright we tried beef tonight and the little guy inhaled it. We
gave
> > him a pretty decent steak I had frozen. Obviously I can't feed
him 4
> > bucks worth of meet every time so can any one suggest some
cheaper
> > options. I have read that pork should be frozen for at least a
month
> > before it is fed. If chicken is out I don't know where I am
going to
> > get my bones from.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -peter

**** If you've just started her on raw, I think you've given her too
much variety, too soon.

It's fine to start with a different meat... pork is a good one, and
it's relatively inexpensive. Pick up some pork shoulder roasts, and
some ribs. My 4 month old doesn't eat too much of the rib bones, but
just enough, and then I take them away.

After her tummy is settled on pork for however long it takes, then
add a little bit of another protein. It took my puppy about 2 and a
half weeks.

Good luck!
Leanne

Messages in this topic (9)
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5. New-- with Puppy and diarrhea
Posted by: "Shelly Giuffre" mymaddiegrl912@yahoo.com mymaddiegrl912
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:54 pm ((PDT))

I have a new 9 week old Shiba Inu puppy. He has been eating both Innova
EVO and raw (chicken) for about a week now. I started him on hearts and
gizards first and last night I gave him a chicken leg.
I woke up SEVERAL times, (not his norm) With SERIOUS diarrhea. It was
all over his crate. And he just was very unhappy! :(
He seems to be fine now, and has had a bowel movement since then. Which
was clear. (Wett stool, not very formed but not watery like the other
stuff)
I was going to talk to my vet about it, but because I am so new to Raw
feeding and want to make my OWN informed decision. (i.e. I don't want
whatever some kibble company paid him to say, be repeated to me)

I have been using both because I am hesitant. I just started
researching this and that is why I turn to you.

He is going tonight for his 2nd Distemper. And I'm supposed to take a
stool sample because he had been treated for Toxitiya. (sp)
Though I have heard some discussion about not vaccinating. But I wanted
to do a puppy class through petsmart and he needs his vacs.
Anyway, I just want some info and things to try on him. I'm not against
switching to Raw completely but I guess because I have been "programed"
Kibble. I'm afriad to just drop it and use raw food.
Any assistance in a good direction for me would be helpful!! Thank
You!!!
Shelly
w/ Leo my Shiba pup :)

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6a. Frozen ??
Posted by: "Pam Staley" pam@tlcnaturally.com mogalone2001
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:54 pm ((PDT))

Just wondering - any pitfalls of feeding raw FROZEN meat? Would the
bones be too 'hard' or splinter more easily?

Pam in MO

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Frozen ??
Posted by: "Tracy P-C" tpreston721@yahoo.com tpreston721
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:10 pm ((PDT))

I have been feeding raw for about 5 months and my girls will ONLY eat it frozen - I have tried and tried to feed fresh and they will skip a meal before eating one that isn't frozen - Now they are 60 and 80 pounds, so I don't think it matters much, but on the smaller ones, it might drop body temp - Hope that helps

Tracy & girls

Pam Staley <pam@tlcnaturally.com> wrote:
Just wondering - any pitfalls of feeding raw FROZEN meat? Would the
bones be too 'hard' or splinter more easily?

Pam in MO

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Frozen ??
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT))

No, no problem unless the dog doesn't want it/doesn't do well with it.
I feed frozen/semi frozen during the summer months when it is wicked
hot. Be aware that tiny dogs often don't do well with frozen food
since it drops their body temp pretty easily.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Staley" <pam@...> wrote:
>
> Just wondering - any pitfalls of feeding raw FROZEN meat? Would the
> bones be too 'hard' or splinter more easily?

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

Green tripe is unprocessed stomach tissue from cows or other
ruminants. It is generally beloved by dogs, probably because it smells
so funky to humans. I'm not sure that green tripe would help your
dilemma right now, though.

It sounds like you are doing well with the chicken parts and the dogs
are figuring it out too. You want to be a little careful when adding
things like eggs and cheese to the diet. It's best to do the initial
switch with just one protein source at a time. Let their guts get used
to the food before moving on. After their stools are solid and
digestion is good you can add another protein source and again wait
until everything is settled. Cheese will definitely cause loose
stools, so save treats like that for later down the road.

You have big dogs so the easiest thing to do is start with chicken
quarters. You'll shoot for feeding around 2-3% of their ideal adult
body weight every day. For Biscuit around 1.5lbs and Gravy 2-2.5lbs a
day (assuming current weights are adult ideals). No more dairy, and
hold off on more pork for a week or two. Also, don't be surprised if
Gravy has really sloppy stools after eating the pork, it's common with
new fattier foods.

Once all is said and done and Biscuit & Gravy are settled with their
new diet, green tripe is a good thing to add for variety. If one of
the dogs refuses to eat organ meats you can disguise the offending food
in ground tripe. If you don't have slaughterhouses around you will
proabably have to order it online. It isn't a miracle food, but it is
a good food. Any more questions, let us know.

Andrea

> cleone4100@... wrote:
>
> Sorry but what is green tripe?

Messages in this topic (8)
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7b. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

>I started with meaty beef bones (1 large each) about a week ago with
> their scraps, then added boneless chicken thighs cut up (2-3 each).

So,your dog being on raw for about a week,and first wek,they got chicken and Beef and scraps??

I think too many in onesitting from right off the bat. You really better stay with one protin source at least till you see firm stool before adding anything else. You decide chicken or beef,what you like to feed now andget other back to freezzer and wait till your dog digest well and poo firmer.I recommend chicken because cheaper than beef and well torelated andless fattier than Beef,but it is your choice.

So,I have another question too.What are "Scraps"??? Are they seasoned leftover stuff from your dinner or..??? I think if it was,then,dog no need it.

> I cut out the scraps a few days ago,

that is good

>but sometimes I add some egg yolks,

Umm,wait. in one week,dog eating chicken/beef/raw egg??

That is recipe for loose stool. Feed raw Egg later ,at least you know your dog can torelate one meat source very well.Then add one new thing in old meat meal.Raw Egg usually soften poo. Don't feed Egg now. and why are you feeding York only not whole Egg?? Dog is ok to eat Raw Egg. Just you need to find timing to introduce it raw Egg though.

>sometimes some cheese to their meat.

Why cheese for meal? You could use bits for training maybe but not cheese meal.

> Yesterday I gave Gravy an extra chicken leg/thigh in the afternoon and he ate it right up.

In addition to beef,chicken,raw Egg and more chicken.. yea,I think too much food too soon.

>Today for the first time I fed a piece of pork shoulder (about 1 lb each) and some chicken >thighs (1 each).

So,now you gave pork.. before seeing dog digest any of the meat you gave well torelated..

Stop pork,beef,and stick to chicken till you see poo coming out firmer;meaning well digested.

Rawfeeding is not competition so,you need to see your dog and go slow with new meat.
you do not need to feed everything so fast.you do not need to feed Egg right away.
rawfeeding is balance over time so,you do not worry about balance each day as well.

Just stick to simple menu first and make it more varied asyourdog adjust to your new menu.

Too much food,too much fat,too much new thing too sonn cause loose poo/diarrhea.

>They also got about 1/2 cup cheese and a little buttermilk. Should I cut out the
> dairy?

I do not undeerstand why you give that much of cheese and butter milk.Why do you give them?

If you wanted to feed diary,maybe use as treats,tiny bits among diet.Not main menu.I now think that yourdog having poo prob because too much new thing too soon+too much diary and cannot torelate that much of diary products.

You need to evaluate your menu for yourdogs,and go slow,add new thing only one new stuff one at a time,that should help.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (8)
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7c. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

>Sorry but what is green tripe?

It is from cow stomach.It has some nutrition in it and some people feed it including myself but you do not need it yet because if you feed it as well,you have more prob.

Give tripe when dogs are ready. Not now.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (8)
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8. Doxie coming home from knee surgery
Posted by: "Pam Staley" pam@tlcnaturally.com mogalone2001
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

well, Benson did break a bone in his little leg .. have no idea how!!
And what a trooper - I can't even imagine letting a vet poke and prod
and pull and massage a broken leg without a whimper, a flinch ect...
he just LAYED THERE - she didn't think it was broke and after about
5mins of moving the leg, feeling it ... turning him over and over,
she said...uhhh I do think I 'hear' something - so we xrayed - and
clean break right below the knee .. one the long bone that is between
the knee and foot...sigh....what a bummer...just what we need - a
$1,000 vet bill - unbelievable....my husband's out of a job...this is
going to be one long bill. Anyway - I'm wondering if there is any
'meat' that would be better for him during his recovery or should I
just continue our raw diet once he gets home?

thanks...and sorry for the bummer note

Pam in MO

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
Posted by: "ms1616emc" auntie_bear@hotmail.com ms1616emc
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

Kae - I found a terrific local California supplier via another user
group, CarnivoreFeed-Supplier@yahoogroups.com... you might try joining
that group for info; it has members from all over the country.

Sandra

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
I was wondering if anyone in Houston or
> the SE Texas area had a reliable supplier they buy from?

Messages in this topic (4)
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10. Re New rawfeeder (re-post)
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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11a. Re: All In...
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:57 pm ((PDT))

What a great idea! I was wondering what I could fill the Kong's with
now that My dogs are on a raw diet. And the chicken "stuffing" is
pure genius, especially in this Texas heat. Thanks!

Carole

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Ground meats as kong filling works great, I also use it to stuff the
> cavity of chickens and freeze for good cool fun during the summer
> months.
>
> Andrea
>

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12a. Re: Species of tripe
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

Libby,

Does he go to the farm and do the slaughtering there? If so, he could just
leave behind the discards for the "coyotes"! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "great_dane_devotee" <libpowers@mac.com>

How does one get an offer of the butchering discards? I contacted my
butcher (He does my
steer) to ask for such items as heart, liver, tongue, and they told me that
it was illegal to offer
any parts that were uninspected to a consumer for liability reasons. I was
free to get those
from my own butchered animals, but not from others' animals.

Messages in this topic (6)
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13a. Re: milk-replacer in litter of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

Anne -
Today I pulled the milk replacer. I have used ground meat along with chicken necks because I was concerned my pups would not get adequate nutrition if I fed portions of meat with bone. I've purchased one last package of ground meat and, thereafter, I'll feed raw with bone.
For me, raw feeding is a journey, not a destination. I'm learning along the way and thanks to all who continually offer their support and expertise:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Michael Moore <m-tak@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>I have a litter of Cavaliers who will be 7 weeks old tomorrow. I have been weaning them from their mommy and supplementing with a milk-replacer. I decreased their nursing capability - removed mommy gradually - and began feeding raw at about 4.5 weeks.
My question is - May I now stop the milk replacer and just have them drink water with the raw food?
And, I'm not sure why I used milk replacer. Does everyone do this with their litters?<<

I did not use any milk replacer with my Pembroke puppies, and I had a litter of nine! Even before I "saw the light" and went to raw, I always discontinued milk replacer by 7 wks. of age. And, I also did not use any ground meats whatsoever, starting my pups at about 5 wks. with bone-in chicken breasts, ribboned so they could easily grab hold of the meat. Worked great for these guys. Just my .02 worth.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
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14a. Re: Fasting a 7 mo old pup?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

"I am no expert but I think with him being so young I would just feed less
or take the food up sooner."

I agree - I would not fast a young pup to lose weight, just cut back 1/4 lb
per day and take it off slowly.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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15. Constipation??
Posted by: "Virginia Snider" vsnider@cogeco.ca rawbglass
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

Rio, a 22 lb Pug, (not overweight but long legs and looks like a mini
wrinkled Boxer), is 11 mos and on raw for about 3 weeks now. Have to still
just sear the meat a bit to warm it up, but he is doing really well and is
still excited about eating.

He eats all his food and is on beef, chicken, duck gizzards and chicken
hearts. Problem is, all now he seems constipated. When I first got him
about a month ago he was on cheap crunchie and would go 4 x a day. Then
after raw started he went down to 2x and better formed. He hasn't done
anything in over 24 hours except a teenie dud that wasn't worth the effort.

I am getting worried, (first dog), but he is still full of energy and
hungry. Drinking lots of water. Any ideas?

Also, is there any reason he can't eat sweet potatoes?

TIA,

Virginia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12054

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. I have a request
From: Brandi

2a. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker

3a. Re: Species of tripe
From: great_dane_devotee
3b. Re: Species of tripe
From: metra_co
3c. Re: Species of tripe
From: costrowski75

4a. All In...
From: wmt613
4b. Re: All In...
From: Andrea
4c. Re: All In...
From: wmt613
4d. Re: All In...
From: Andrea

5a. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
From: mgitaville
5b. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
From: one_sojourner_one

6a. Re: Flosing Zone
From: Andrea
6b. Re: Flosing Zone
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: Flosing Zone
From: kjdaughtridge

7a. Re: Feeding schedule
From: Andrea
7b. Re: Feeding schedule
From: costrowski75

8a. NEW TO RAW
From: Michal Cline

9a. Re: some tartar on his teeth
From: Kari Carlisle

10a. Re: Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
From: kaylsraven

11a. New raw feeder
From: cleone4100
11b. Re: New raw feeder
From: Yasuko herron
11c. Re: New raw feeder
From: Howard Salob
11d. Re: New raw feeder
From: cleone4100@aol.com
11e. Re: New raw feeder
From: cleone4100@aol.com

12a. Re: Fasting a 7 mo old pup?
From: one_sojourner_one

Messages
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1. I have a request
Posted by: "Brandi" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:08 am ((PDT))

Chris O can you email me privately, please?

Thank you,
Brandi
bbryant573@gmail.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:08 am ((PDT))

I have been trying for days to feed Lucy some beef liver, and she just
> can't stand it!

Just a thought........Have you tried drying it in the oven in small
pieces, and using it as training treats with lots of praise? They
don't need that much liver and that just might change it enough to make
it "OK". Also, they usually gulp down the treats without really
analizing them.
Also, perhaps, liver from another source might hit the spot.
Penny & The Menagerie

Messages in this topic (20)
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3a. Re: Species of tripe
Posted by: "great_dane_devotee" libpowers@mac.com great_dane_devotee
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:09 am ((PDT))

I have an offer for the butchering discards of two lambs (yay!)

How does one get an offer of the butchering discards? I contacted my butcher (He does my
steer) to ask for such items as heart, liver, tongue, and they told me that it was illegal to offer
any parts that were uninspected to a consumer for liability reasons. I was free to get those
from my own butchered animals, but not from others' animals.

Shall I just contact another butcher?

Libby

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Species of tripe
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))

When I've ordered goat chunks from Taylor Pond Farms, there has usually
been some tripe pieces included, and it's the first part Rusty inhales!

Metra

>
> Has anyone fed tripe/stomach from goat or lamb? I have an offer for
> the butchering discards of two lambs (yay!) and I can only assume it
> will include the stomachs. I can't think of how it would be any less
> good than cow stomach. Right? Anything I should know?
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Species of tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:41 am ((PDT))

"girlndocs" <girlndocs@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone fed tripe/stomach from goat or lamb?
*****
Yes. Goat guts (all of 'em) and lamb tripe.

I have an offer for
> the butchering discards of two lambs (yay!) and I can only assume it
> will include the stomachs.
*****
Take them! Worry about the details later.

I can't think of how it would be any less
> good than cow stomach. Right?
*****
Right. Arguably better.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. All In...
Posted by: "wmt613" wmt613@yahoo.com wmt613
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:06 am ((PDT))

Hello all,

Today is the day 'we' take the plunge: Molly - doberman, hound, ? mix
(2 years old, 55 lbs); Jaz - terrier, shepherd, ? mix (3 years old 50
lbs) ; Ruger - Decker Rat Terrier (2 years old, 38 lbs); and Chloe -
Jack Russel Terrier (9 years old, 16 lbs). Three girls and a boy.
All rescues.

I am on board with this 100%. My wife - not so much. She agrees that
we need to do this, she's just a little overwhelmed at the amount of
work that can be involved.

Any advice on the following would be greatly appreciated.

Where to feed? I found a lot of information about what to feed, but
not necessarily where. Obviously, with the bacterial implications,
we aren't going to be feeding them on the carpet in the living room.
Summer is fine for feeding them outside, but what about during the
winter?

What about combining meats in a meal? Is it okay to give them a
combination of ground beef and chicken wings? Chicken breasts and
beef ribs? Or is this just a bad idea?

Bones. These are my wife's biggest concern. I've tried to allay her
fears by pointing out that Molly 'The Mole Killer' has eaten baby
rabbits whole with no ill effects (we live in country). My wife
wonders if we're better off adding bone meal to ground meats and
giving them raw beef bones to chew under supervision that we can take
away when they get to the size of a choking hazzard. Bad idea?

Veggies/Fruits. Necessary? There seems to be a lack of consensus
from what I've read.

Again, any help is GREATLY appreciated.

WMT

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: All In...
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

Hooray for you taking the plunge! I think as you go along you'll
find that your concerns aren't a big deal.

> Where to feed?

While I do hold a healty respect for germs, I'm not all that afraid
of them. With both my dogs I began feeding them in their crates. It
is a great way to let them feel secure keep them in a contained
area. They learned that you eat in one spot and now they will keep
their food wherever I put it down. Geiger the GSP mix eats on his
big dog bed, Tycho the newf mix eats on his too small puppy bed (how
quickly they grow). When the beds get funky the covers get washed.

> What about combining meats in a meal?

Great, I do it all the time.

> Is it okay to give them a combination of ground beef and chicken
> wings? Chicken breasts and beef ribs? Or is this just a bad idea?

As far as mixing meats it is fine. Wings should be attached to the
rest of the bird, though. They are far too easy to swallow whole.
Ground meat doesn't provide any dental benefit so I only buy it when
it is on super duper sale. Breasts and ribs are a good meal.

> My wife wonders if we're better off adding bone meal to ground
> meats and giving them raw beef bones to chew under supervision that
> we can take away when they get to the size of a choking hazzard.

One of the great things about raw feeding is that it naturally keeps
your pets' mouths clean because they have to rip, tear, and crunch
their food into submission. Feeding ground food deprives them of a
natural toothbrush. Also, dogs who tend to bolt their food will do
so even faster with ground meals. Generally, beef bones are too hard
for dogs to safely chew without causing eventual damage to the
teeth. It is best and easiest to stick with whole foods. Once you
see them actually eating a chicken quarter you will realize that this
is the way they were meant to eat.

> Veggies/Fruits. Necessary?

Nope. Not at all. No lack of consensus as long as you realize that
scientifically dogs are carnivores. They have no need for fruits and
veggies, they get everything they need from prey animals.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: All In...
Posted by: "wmt613" wmt613@yahoo.com wmt613
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

Thanks for the insight, Andrea! Our dogs are used to eating one
large meal a day in the evening. Should we continue this cycle or
should we start splitting their meals to morning and evening? We
give them kongs in the morning with a treat since they are kenneled
during the day. I'm thinking of filling the kongs with ground beef
or turkey to keep them in their routine and then gradually shifting
it to a meal instead. Good idea, bad?

Thanks,

Will

Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: All In...
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

I prefer feeding once a day. It allows me to give big food and let the
dogs really expend some energy while eating. As you switch over you
might have loose stools at first, but if you do you can back off the
amount you are feeding and build up their bowel tolerance. Other than
puppies, senior dogs and dogs with health problems I would only feed
once a day.

Ground meats as kong filling works great, I also use it to stuff the
cavity of chickens and freeze for good cool fun during the summer
months.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "wmt613" <wmt613@...> wrote:

> Our dogs are used to eating one large meal a day in the evening.
> Should we continue this cycle or should we start splitting their
> meals to morning and evening?

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:07 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "one_sojourner_one"
<onesojourner@...> wrote:
>
> alright we tried beef tonight and the little guy inhaled it. We gave
> him a pretty decent steak I had frozen. Obviously I can't feed him 4
> bucks worth of meet every time so can any one suggest some cheaper
> options. I have read that pork should be frozen for at least a month
> before it is fed. If chicken is out I don't know where I am going to
> get my bones from.
>
>
>
>
> -peter
>

******Pork does not need to be frozen for a month in my opinion....I
feed straight from the store often and have never had a problem. With
2 bullmastiffs food rarely stays in the freezer for more than 2 weeks.
Second, I encourage you to re-read Andrea's post regarding your
suspected allergy....HIGHLY unlikely this is a chicken allergy. Many
dogs have upset stomachs when making the transition to raw. Feel free
to start with beef or pork, but I encourage you to go back to chicken
once you and your dog get the hang of things.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:09 am ((PDT))

One possibility is that he is eating his food too quickly. Geiger has
been known to bolt down small pieces of food whole only to bring it
back up half an hour later and eat it again, chewing this time. Give
the pup larger portions that he has to work to eat so that his stomach
juices can get going before the food gets there.

He ate the chicken painfully slow compared to the beef he has eaten so
this would be strange. -peter

The food might also be too cold. This has never been a problem with my
big dogs, but my sister's chi has problems holding down food straight
from the fridge. He's fine eating the same thing around room temp,
though.

One of the steaks he ate was partially frozen so I don't think he has
issues with cold food. The chicken he ate was room temperature. -peter

Lastly, you might check to make the chicken hasn't been enhanced with
juicifiers and broth.

This could be the case but there was no mention of it on the label.-peter

So, make sure your chicken is minimally processed, feed bigger more
akward pieces, and let food get to room temp before feeding. If that
doesn't work, let us know. Good luck.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: Flosing Zone
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:30 am ((PDT))

How long does it take to clean the teeth? It depends on how dirty
they were in the first place. My GSP, Geiger, has been raw fed since
he was 3mo old, so his teeth are in great shape. When he had tartar
on his canines it went away in about a week once I started feeding
more complicated meals. I can't speak for dogs who start out with
dirty teeth, though.

Wreck bones are never ok in my book. I probably wouldn't worry about
the antilope legs, and I'm on the fence about deer, but I wouldn't
feed elk legs at all. Shoulder of these animals should be great if
it isn't a bare nekkid bone. No meat = no feed in my house. Not
that I am lucky enough to be able to make those choices though )=

Glad Ishta enjoyed the head, I sure enjoyed looking at the pictures!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lauraanimal1" <lauraanimal1@...>
wrote:
>
> once given the proper diet that will provide what she needs to
> clean of the tarter, how long does it usualy take? Also on wreck
> bones, when is ok and not ok? right now along with the other I am
> geting I get elk, antilope and deer shoulder blades and front leg
> bones that are still attached and has a lot of meat and tendons
> left on them.

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Flosing Zone
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:06 am ((PDT))

"lauraanimal1" <lauraanimal1@...> wrote:
once given the proper diet that will
> provide what she needs to clean of the tarter, how long does it
> usualy take?
*****
Depends on how much tartar you start with and what is in the proper
diet you feed. Since tartar is removed by mechanical process
(abrasion), if you feed a variety of body parts that allow all the
teeth to be put to work you will see cleaner teeth sooner than if you
feed meals that do not require a full-dental assault. Some dogs lose
the buildup quickly, others no not. Most people see SOME cleaner
teeth fairly soon but find the inscisors and the "fangs" are last and
hardest to clean up.

Also on wreck bones, when is ok and not ok?
*****
They are not called "wreck" bones without reason. Don't feed bare
naked bones. Period. Then you don't have to worry about which is
the least offensive. Aim to feed bones with plenty of juicy,
scrumptuous meat on them. Dense, barenaked bones will not clean the
front teeth although they may indeed fracture them.

For the front teeth you need sinewy parts (a slab of beef ribs is
good) for flossing between the incisors and you need meat without or
without hide/hair thick enough to allow the dogs to truly sink their
teeth into the meal. If there is nothing in the meal to scrub the
fangs, they won't get cleaned unless you do the scrubbing yourself.

I am geting I get elk, antilope and deer
> shoulder blades and front leg bones that are still attached and has
> a lot of meat and tendons left on them. there is also a lot of
> cartlegde (sp?) on the shoulder blade, are these ok to feed as long
> as I take them up after she eats the meat and tentdons off them?
*****
These are perfect, lovely, wonderful! When the bones are offered
with meat and tendons and cartilage and sinew attached, they are an
integral part of the meal. Let your dogs get as much off of and out
of these as they can. These bones, as fed, are not wreck bones nor
even rec bones. They are the meal. This is a good thing.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Flosing Zone
Posted by: "kjdaughtridge" kjdaughtridge@yahoo.com kjdaughtridge
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

Thought I'd chime in on this one as a newbie. We've been feeding raw for about 3 months
now. One of my dogs is a greyhound and greys are notorious for having nasty teeth. His
teeth were so bad you couldn't even see the teeth in back under all the tartar and his gums
looked awful. After about 2 weeks I could see a big difference. After 2 months he was tartar
free and his gums look pink and healthy! In fact, I ran into his previous owner at a dog show
and she was amazed at how beautiful his teeth were. He is three years old and the dog she
was showing is about 18 months. Her dog was well on his way to tartar city.

Needless to say, I pounced on the opportunity to spread the word about raw. She seemed
interested so I sent her all the links and Giselle's "how to get started" message.

-Kathleen D.

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Feeding schedule
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "abeautiful3" <abeautiful3@...>
wrote:

> I do not think that I will have time in the morning to feed them
> seprately and keep an eye on them.
> Do you think this will throw there system off to much?

Probably, but that isn't really the worst thing in the world. Being
able to feed your dogs whenever you choose to is a wonderful
blessing. When Geiger was a baby puppy I fed him three times a day
at specific times. Before work, after work, and when humans ate
dinner. The problem arose when I would get stuck at work and be an
hour late or when bf and I had a late dinner. Geiger would go to his
feeding spot and vomit bile and scare the bejeezus out of me without
fail. I found out from the list that it was because his stomach was
expecting food at a certain time and if the food didn't show it had
to get rid of the digestive juices somehow. From then on I started
feeding Geiger at random times. The first week was really hard
because he was still puking bile at almost every "mealtime." As the
week went on, the bile vomit became more infrequent and now I haven't
seen it in over a year. The best thing about random feedings is that
the pups always act so pleasantly surprised when I come in the room
with food in my hands.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Feeding schedule
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:30 am ((PDT))

"abeautiful3" <abeautiful3@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> One thing that I am concerned about is their feeding schedule when I
> feed them kibble I would feed them early in the morning before I would
> have to leave for work.
*****
Strict feeding schedules are frequently more detrimental than
beneficial. You may need a feeding schedule to get your pre-job chores
done, but your dogs do not need to be feed by the clock. I recommend
you take the clock out of your feeding plans.

I recommend you feed them when you have time to do it properly and
don't beat yourself up about it. If that means at night, fine and
dandy. If that means feeding "easy" food M-F and saving the big,
complicated, engrossing meals for the weekend, fine and dandy.

It's okay to mix up meals, it's okay to feed erratically, it's okay to
have a thoroughly untidy meal plan. Once your dogs' brains get used to
more random meals, their digestive systems will acclimate as well.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. NEW TO RAW
Posted by: "Michal Cline" Mcline30@aol.com michalcline
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:52 am ((PDT))

I have been lurking for about a month and have been feeding raw for
over 2 weeks. I gave their 15 kilo bag of kibble to a friend. I
apologize in advance because this is a long post BUT I am sooooo
frustrated. I also ordered the Lonsdale book. Their vet supports me
as do many friends on the Parti Poodle Forum. I also joined Raw Chat.

I live in France near the Mediterrean and have two Standard parti
Poodle males: Victor is 3(17 kilos) and Aramis is 2 (23 kilos). Both
are from the States. As I read through the posts, I envy you in the
States for the variety and ease with which you are able to obtain
raw meat for your dogs.

Bacically I have fed chicken, pork ribs, sardines, and mackeral to my
boys with a little kidney. Aramis, the younger, will eat anything,
but Victor must have his food held for him to eat. But that is not
the problem for us really. The problem is the cost of buying meat
here in France. Unlike Anericans, the French eat almost every part
of an animal. When I asked a butcher for meaty ribs and
unfortunately mentioned they were for the dogs, he walked away and
turned me over to another buther. Stupid me! The French love their
dogs but most feed them kibble with table scraps. Forget rabbit! It
is over 12 euros a kilo!

I did manage to buy 2 lamb tongues which they loved. Like my English
counterparts, we also do not have a large freezer space. Also because
we live near the sea, this is not a hunting area so there is little
to obtain from hunters or chicken or duck farms. If we lived 2 hours
west we would not have the same dilemna. As of now it is costing us
about 5 euros a day to feed them. That is close to 8 dollars! And
their diet consists primarily of chicken.

In the morning I feed them a little fromage blanc (cross between
yogart and cream cheese) then around 2 pm they get their chicken
quarters, legs or halves and maybe a little pork rib. In the evening
they partake of the leftover noodles, potatoes, rice, buttered bread,
or extra raw beef, etc. For training I give them tiny pieces of
Frolic.

They also love boiled or scrambled eggs. Can eggs constitute a
potrion of the protein instead of meat? And if so, how many eggs?
Does one just crack them and give them raw in a bowl?

Clearly, I need help and appreciate your suggestions. We are not rich
and their food is costing more than ours--maybe another reason to
head back?

Michal Cline owned by 2 beautiful parti boys

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Re: some tartar on his teeth
Posted by: "Kari Carlisle" kari@houndgroup.com karicarlisle
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

In the book, "Raw Meaty Bones," the author talks about this. He says
the canine teeth are only used in the process of bringing down prey so
even with raw fed carnivores, the canines may not be used while
eating. After I read that, I checked my dogs teeth, and sure enough,
their teeth are sparkly white except for their canines. At least the
canines are easy to brush!

Kari, Jack and Sam's houndmom

Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. Re: Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
Posted by: "kaylsraven" kaylsraven@yahoo.com kaylsraven
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

> I was wondering if anyone in Houston or the SE Texas area had a
> reliable supplier they buy from?

If you find one, let me know ^_^

Okay, kinda kidding. You can come check out HoustonRawFeeders at Y!--I
haven't been on in a while, but finding out about bulk suppliers is
helpful when you have the cash flow, agonizing when you see a really
great deal and can't do it, so I mostly stay away at this point.
Bones2Go is good--on her price list, she lists several bulk items
(kangaroo and emu being two! Plus whole goat, I think she's got whole
lamb on there...) so maybe talk to her about that--I intend to at some
point in the hopefully not too distant future.

I'm north of Conroe, and we have a lot of deer hunters around here.
Once I find some, I intend to talk to them about the remains of their
deer hunting exploits, so that's an idea.

There are a couple Asian markets around that I found were excellent
sources of fish and funky organ meats (but mostly fish). They also
carry duck and rabbit at the one I go (went *sigh*) to, the Hong Kong
market (it's on Bellaire or Bissonet--one of those B streets in the SW
chunk of Houston).

Hope that helped at least a little.

Sabrina 'n the gang

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. New raw feeder
Posted by: "cleone4100" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I just started raw feeding my two bloodhounds. I used to feed mixed
commercial and scraps in the AM. That way they were done eliminating by
bed time and slept through the night. Now they are both waking me up in
the middle of the night and having very soft or runny stools. I still
feed in the AM, but then have been giving them another piece of meaty
beef bone in the afternoon. Is a soft or runny stool normal? If not how
long does it usually take to get back to a firm stool? Am I not giving
enough bones? Once they have eaten, how long does it usually take for
them to need to eliminate? Any and all help and suggestions would be
appreciated! So far my female Biscuit is fine with it, but Gravy the
male is confused, takes him a little while to figure out how to eat the
meat. Thanks!

Messages in this topic (5)
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11b. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:19 am ((PDT))

>I used to feed mixed commercial and scraps in the AM.

Hi,if you tell us what you are currently feeding,then,we could help you more. Amount you feeding and,what you are feeding are good to put in the post when you have questions and others can find what are causing problems.

Also,how long have you been on rawfeeding? How many times a day are you feeding? How big are your dog?That is important info too.

Are you feeding whole chicken cut up to your dogs portion??

Easiest to start with is get chicken whole and cut up to appropriate portion and feed,and that way,you would not feed too small portion that dog may want to swallow whole such as bunch of chicken wings,plus much cheaper that way than buying bunch of parts by parts.

>Now they are both waking me up in the middle of the night and having very soft or runny >stools.

I am wondering if too much food all at one sitting or you put too many different kinds of stuff like chicken with liver etc even though dog just started on rawfeeding.

What you are feeding and how much you feeding really helps to find answer to this poo prob.

My dog go poo once a day or two.

And you wrote one of your dog is confused by the food you offer. It is because smell different,texture is different and some dog needs to recognise it is a food. Be patient and try quick searing etc and entice thedog to eat.It should help.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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11c. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:19 am ((PDT))

Dear CLeone,

Try giving green tripe. It makes a big difference.

Sincerely,

Howard

cleone4100 <cleone4100@aol.com> wrote:
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Messages in this topic (5)
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11d. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "cleone4100@aol.com" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:16 am ((PDT))

Thanks,

I started with meaty beef bones (1 large each) about a week ago with their
scraps, then added boneless chicken thighs cut up (2-3 each). I cut out the
scraps a few days ago, but sometimes I add some egg yolks, sometimes some
cheese to their meat. Yesterday I gave Gravy an extra chicken leg/thigh in the
afternoon and he ate it right up. Today for the first time I fed a piece of pork
shoulder (about 1 lb each) and some chicken thighs (1 each). They also got
about 1/2 cup cheese and a little buttermilk. Should I cut out the dairy?

Biscuit weighs 75lbs, Gravy weighs 115.

I bought a big bag of chicken leg/thigh portions, pork shoulder that was on
sale, and also still have the boneless chicken thighs and beef bones. Should I
feed each separate rather than mix them?

Gravy finally figured out the pork shoulder and seems to enjoying it. Thanks
for you help, Carey

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Messages in this topic (5)
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11e. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "cleone4100@aol.com" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

Sorry but what is green tripe? Carey

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Messages in this topic (5)
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12a. Re: Fasting a 7 mo old pup?
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

I am no expert but I think with him being so young I would just feed
less or take the food up sooner.

-peter

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12053

There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. First Day on Raw
From: Renate
1b. Re: First Day on Raw
From: Giselle

2a. Re: milk-replacer in litter of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
From: Tina Berry
2b. Re: milk-replacer in litter of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
From: Caren OConnor
2c. milk-replacer in litter of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
From: Michael Moore

3a. Re: some tartar on his teeth
From: vickies_28
3b. Re: some tartar on his teeth
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
From: Giselle
4b. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

5a. Re: Why don't vets recommend raw food?
From: fairefli

6. Lefty's possible blockage
From: rosielefty

7a. First day
From: abeautiful3

8. Feeding schedule
From: abeautiful3

9a. Species of tripe
From: girlndocs
9b. Re: Species of tripe
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
From: kaebruney
10b. Re: Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
From: marblekallie

11a. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
From: one_sojourner_one

12. Fasting a 7 mo old pup?
From: Kendra

13. Flosing Zone
From: lauraanimal1

14. Pet Food Recall (BRAVO)
From: doguenanny

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. First Day on Raw
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

You guys are probably sick of this first day stuff. But I am so chuffed.
Jake gobbled both chicken quarter meals no problem. Loved it all. Bella
(shih tzu) took a while to figure out how to get hold of it but knew she
wanted it, so she ate about half of hers, figured out how to crunch up the
leg bone, which actually is about right for her weight. She was not happy
that I took it away, but I don't want any of those loose cannons in my bed
tonight LOL. Frodo (also shih tzu, but a rescue) is having a tougher time.
He's nibbling at the meaty bits and dragging it through the mud, but he has
a definite interest, so by tomorrow, he may be all in. I am so happy I am
able to do this for my guys. My next foster is going on it too, though the
2 I have at the moment have just had major diet adjustments, so I think I'll
just let them go to their adoptive homes on kibble. I am so grateful for
you guys and all the knowledge and Giselle for you're push. I needed it.
Jake is 10yo and I have never seen him actually enjoy a meal until today.
He ate, but didn't really care about it. This was so different for him,
it's wonderful. Thank you all.

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: First Day on Raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Renate!
Kewl!
I'm going at being pushy..... ^_^

Keep us posted!
TC
Giselle

> You guys are probably sick of this first day stuff. But I am so
chuffed.
> Jake gobbled both chicken quarter meals no problem. Loved it all.
<snip>
I am so grateful for
> you guys and all the knowledge and Giselle for you're push. I
needed it.
> Jake is 10yo and I have never seen him actually enjoy a meal until
today.
> He ate, but didn't really care about it. This was so different for him,
> it's wonderful. Thank you all.
>
> --
> Renate
> 'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: milk-replacer in litter of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

"Maybe I just want to keep them babies longer:)"

They are definitely not babies for long. Enjoy!
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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2b. Re: milk-replacer in litter of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:36 pm ((PDT))

I know. They are babies far too short a period of time! I wanted them to grow, grow, grow and now I want them to stay suspended in this time! Silly, isn't it! Didn't think I could/would go there but I did. Human nature is a funny thing:)
It's no more milk after tonight and I'm sad about that! My little babies are growin' up:)
Thanks, Tina, for responding:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Tina Berry <k9baron@gmail.com> wrote:
"Maybe I just want to keep them babies longer:)"

They are definitely not babies for long. Enjoy!
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (22)
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2c. milk-replacer in litter of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:31 pm ((PDT))

>>I have a litter of Cavaliers who will be 7 weeks old tomorrow. I have been weaning them from their mommy and supplementing with a milk-replacer. I decreased their nursing capability - removed mommy gradually - and began feeding raw at about 4.5 weeks.
My question is - May I now stop the milk replacer and just have them drink water with the raw food?
And, I'm not sure why I used milk replacer. Does everyone do this with their litters?<<

I did not use any milk replacer with my Pembroke puppies, and I had a litter of nine! Even before I "saw the light" and went to raw, I always discontinued milk replacer by 7 wks. of age. And, I also did not use any ground meats whatsoever, starting my pups at about 5 wks. with bone-in chicken breasts, ribboned so they could easily grab hold of the meat. Worked great for these guys. Just my .02 worth.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (22)
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3a. Re: some tartar on his teeth
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

What exactly do you mean by that? sink into? Can you give some
examples? The more - the better. I am trying to avoid this problem to
begin with, I have a pup, but I had an older dog before and I know what
this yellow thing on their teeth is all about. So give some more
examples please if you can.
Also, you say give bigger parts. Well, my dog is not small by any
means, but when I give him a huge turkey part (wing and whatever is
attached to it, looked huge), he wouldn't finish it. I wasn't sure was
it because he got full or because he just got tired of eating this big
enormous piece that he couldn't completely crush.
Would a dog that weighs 50 lbs normally be able to eat turkey parts?

Thank you
Vickie and basset hound Grisha

And for cleaner
> canine teeth, the dogs need to be fed meals they literally can sink
> their teeth into.
>
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: some tartar on his teeth
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:30 pm ((PDT))

>Would a dog that weighs 50 lbs normally be able to eat turkey parts?

Hi.I have 35lb Corgi but she has no prob with Turkey and,crunch bone good and eat it.

"Teeth sink into" the phrase Chris meant by is,what I interprete as something dog needs to hold meat with both paws and bit into and rip using canine teeth not like eating just with side molar teeth.

If you feed Roast meat or Pork butt meat,something big or rib slabs are the things that dog probably needs to hold meat on to to get tasty bits out from the hunk.

Pork feet,Cow hooves are good work out as well.

The cow hooves that I got from hare today in PA has still fur around andthose,what Chris might have meant by fur hide etc etc (fross like role) but it really like she needs to hold onto and rip through fur around .She worked on it 2 hours but ate it 6oz only. Thatday,shewas so tired andit was so quiet day:-P

Next day,her poo was like some had bunch of pricked fur-like and it was real wiered poo,but shedefinitely enjoyed that.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Steph!
Well, there's liver, and then there's liver - have you tried
chicken livers? Or turkey? Or pork? Or feeding whole rabbits or other
small critters intact?
http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp
http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23

You could go the teensy bits route, and just drop a couple dribs on a
regular portion when you feed her.

It doesn't matter how much or how often or what type of liver it is,
just as long as it gets inside her.

You could drop some bits into very warm water, and let it 'cook' a
little before giving it to her. Or, use the bits as treats!

Um, mixing small pieces of liver in with leftover spaghetti sauce
often works, or mashed up with canned sardines, mackerel or salmon. Or
cheez whiz. Or leftover gravy. Just see what's in the fridge or
cupboard that she'll do a happy dance for. You can mix pieces of liver
with anything she likes, really. Its OK. ^_^

Just put whatever liver luvvin' mixture you've prepared down before a
meal, let her eat it up, then get the rest of the meal out of the
fridge for her. Where do you usually give her snacks or maybe sneak
bites of yummy stuff to her? The living room couch, the kitchen/dining
room table, sitting at the computer? Is she used to getting scraps
when you scrape the dinner plates after a meal? Take advantage of the
yummy associations that getting food in those places might have for
her - offer her a liver snack while you're having a meal or a snack
yourself.
TC
Giselle

> Well, I had read that they need 10% organs per week, and that 5% of
> that should be liver
<snip>
> -Steph
> Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

Messages in this topic (19)
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4b. Re: Suggestions for a dog who HATES beef liver!
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

Try her with liver from other animals. Nobody said she has to eat BEEF
liver. :)

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (19)
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5a. Re: Why don't vets recommend raw food?
Posted by: "fairefli" mommyrn@mac.com fairefli
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

All I can tell you is my expierence. I had a doxie. My sister next
door has 2. They play together and have about the same
schedule/activity level. I feed mine raw, she feeds kible. I never
told my vet I feed my dog raw, at least not for the longest time.
My sister kept telling me my dog was to skinny and why wasn't I
feeding her better dog food? Then came the real shocker. We went
to the vet together. (We go to the same one but not usually at the
same appointment) The vet made it very clear who's dog was healthy
and who's was not. My appoinment took 5 mins. My sister's? Well
after the 20 minute lecture about how her 15lbs dog is suppose to be
closer to 12 lbs and didn't she know that kind of weight gain was
not good for a dog, the vet started in on the lecture about the
littler dog. Seems my sister was keeping their coat healthy looking
by putting oil on the outside of it. My dog's coat looked like that
from the food that went in her. I walked out with a "nice job", she
walked out with hair oil, dental cavity prevention, some supplement
to try to make their fur better from the inside, more expensive
kibble and a huge bill! Somewhere in the middle of all this the vet
asked me what I was feeding and instead of my typical "dog food"
reply I told him "I feed her raw and she loves it". After the
shocked look faded from his face he asked me if I had always done
this and I said yes. That was that. He didn't say another word. I
don't think he knew what to say. Raw feeding isn't very popular
here in Nebraska. I don't know that he has ever see a raw feed
dog. Now he has seen 2 (I have 2 dogs now) and he seems to be ok
with that.

Chy

Just remember, there is a certain amount of gut instict that comes
with raising our babies (2 and 4 legged). Don't let someone make
your mind up for you. Read what's out there and then follow what
your gut tells you. If your vet doesn't like your choice (whether
it be type of kibble or raw) change vets.

Messages in this topic (22)
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6. Lefty's possible blockage
Posted by: "rosielefty" rosielefty@yahoo.com rosielefty
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi Everyone,
I am sorry I didn't get back sooner. Started a new job and it is
fairly tiring. Anyway, both dogs doing much better. I still have
trouble with some diarrhea now and then but I think I am getting the
hang of it. I wanted to thank all of you who responded. It really
really makes a difference. I almost gave up out of fear. Thank you so
much you are all wounderful! Beth

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. First day
Posted by: "abeautiful3" abeautiful3@yahoo.com abeautiful3
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

I also started my AB on raw chicken today it is something to see them
enjoy their food.

My girl which is 2yrs only wanted to eat one meal do you think she was
full or just getting use to the raw meat?

My cocker poo on the other hand looked at the meat for a while and
would not eat so I remembered someone in the group saying to cut slits
in the meat to bring out the aroma, I also tried the parmeson cheese
and between the to he ate quite a bit.

Arlene

Messages in this topic (6)
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8. Feeding schedule
Posted by: "abeautiful3" abeautiful3@yahoo.com abeautiful3
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

One thing that I am concerned about is their feeding schedule when I
feed them kibble I would feed them early in the morning before I would
have to leave for work. I do not think that I will have time in the
morning to feed them seprately and keep an eye on them.

Do you think this will throw there system off to much?

Arlene

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Species of tripe
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

Has anyone fed tripe/stomach from goat or lamb? I have an offer for
the butchering discards of two lambs (yay!) and I can only assume it
will include the stomachs. I can't think of how it would be any less
good than cow stomach. Right? Anything I should know?

Thanks,

Kristin

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Species of tripe
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:43 pm ((PDT))

Kristin,

It's all good...get whatever you can! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "girlndocs" <girlndocs@hotmail.com>

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

Hey everyone,

After reading so much on this board about buying more whole meats and
if possible whole carcasses, I was wondering if anyone in Houston or
the SE Texas area had a reliable supplier they buy from?

I would love to be able to offer my dogs goat, lamb or duck but can''t
find bulk suppliers. Currently I just pick up whole chickens, pork
ribs, shoulders, hearts, livers, etc from the local store (Fiesta,
HEB, Food Town and sometimes Bones2Go, but buying from the grocery
store isn't economical. Plus I miss all the good stuff like trachea,
deer meat and all the other cool bits. Now that n I have a freezer
just waiting to be filled, I want to fill it up!

Does anyone in Houston get their orders in bulk? Cases of hearts, etc?
Where do you order from or go to pick up?

Also, I would LOVE to get an animal head or two for my dogs to have at
it. Where does one find such things in the big city???

Thanks for all the help.

Kae

p.s - I tried searching through the history first but didn't find what
I'm looking for.

p.s.s.- I've been to Bones2Go

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:38 am ((PDT))

Hi:

Have you tried the Carnivorefeedsupplier list? If you join it, you
can post your needs and you will get answers and even perhaps some
offers.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

I was wondering if anyone in Houston or
> the SE Texas area had a reliable supplier they buy from?

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

alright we tried beef tonight and the little guy inhaled it. We gave
him a pretty decent steak I had frozen. Obviously I can't feed him 4
bucks worth of meet every time so can any one suggest some cheaper
options. I have read that pork should be frozen for at least a month
before it is fed. If chicken is out I don't know where I am going to
get my bones from.

-peter

Messages in this topic (5)
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12. Fasting a 7 mo old pup?
Posted by: "Kendra" kborland@ptd.net knkbor
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:38 am ((PDT))

Montana is gaining weight a little too fast maybe. I chalk it up to
him being a "growing boy". But recently it has been pointed out to me
that he may have a bit too much fat on his ribs.
Today he ate far too much. (stole some of Sasha's food.) He'd eat 24/7
if I let him. YOu know how it is... "Mom, isn't there anything I can
eat? Look at me! I'm starving here!"

I'm wondering if it would be ok to fast him for a day every once in
awhile? (like tomorrow) or is he still to young?
He's about 65 lbs. A fairly large Airedale at 7 months.
Thanks,
Kendra

Messages in this topic (1)
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13. Flosing Zone
Posted by: "lauraanimal1" lauraanimal1@yahoo.com lauraanimal1
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:39 am ((PDT))

Have a few questions and soemthing to share.
In some of the othere recient posts there was mention of tarter on
the canines,my question is once given the proper diet that will
provide what she needs to clean of the tarter, how long does it
usualy take? Also on wreck bones, when is ok and not ok? right now
along with the other I am geting I get elk, antilope and deer
shoulder blades and front leg bones that are still attached and has
a lot of meat and tendons left on them. there is also a lot of
cartlegde (sp?) on the shoulder blade, are these ok to feed as long
as I take them up after she eats the meat and tentdons off them?

Here is 3 links to video of her eating the antilope head she got and
it shows great flossing action!!! Also to those who responded to my
other posts, thanks you for you coments and advice, it has
helped@!!!!

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc44/lauraanimal1/?
action=view&current=head017.flv

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc44/lauraanimal1/?
action=view&current=head016.flv

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc44/lauraanimal1/?
action=view&current=head015.flv

Happy raw feeding everyone!!!!

Laura and a very happy Ishta

Messages in this topic (1)
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14. Pet Food Recall (BRAVO)
Posted by: "doguenanny" Dixie4911@aol.com doguenanny
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:21 am ((PDT))

Let me start off by saying I don't use Bravo. I've had several of
my "non" raw feeding friends email me the story about the Bravo
recall. Some tubes of the Bravo Chicken and Turkey stuff was recalled
because it contained salmonella and listeria. Why are they recalling
it because of salmonella? I feed raw chicken, doesn't that contain
salmonella? How do I respond to my "good intentioned" friends when
they ask about this recall? I've already been through the "raw chicken
and salmonella" speech with them. Why would salmonella in a frozen
prepackaged dog food be any different from the salmonella in the fresh
chicken I feed?. Just wondering what I can say to people when they ask
about this. Won't make me change the way I feed my dogs.

Frankie

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