Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 24, 2007

Wednesday, October 24, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12200

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Pup with worms
From: Fredo A.
1b. Re: Pup with worms
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
From: merril Woolf

3. Feeding Lamb
From: T Smith

4a. Hi everyone!
From: everfade79
4b. Re: Hi everyone!
From: katkellm
4c. Re: Hi everyone!
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Skin or not?
From: ri_bulldogs
6b. Re: Skin or not?
From: katkellm
6c. Re: Skin or not?
From: Sandee Lee
6d. Re: Skin or not?
From: Loraine Jesse

7a. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Butchering help
From: Mary Tinder

9a. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: Yasuko herron
9b. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: katkellm
9c. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: D. Rajska
9d. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

10a. Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you wer
From: Yasuko herron
10b. Re: Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you
From: Casey Post

11a. New with Questions
From: sherri_cappabianca

12a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
From: iumadness64

13. Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberman g
From: Josephine Morningstar

14a. Re: Packaged raw diets (slightly OT)
From: carnesbill

15a. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
From: Monica

Messages
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1a. Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "Fredo A." everfade79@yahoo.com everfade79
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

I have found from a dog owner who gives raw food to her dog that when you start giving a dog raw food it goes through a detox process and part of this process is worms being expelled during a bowel movement. Have you recently started the raw feeding? If so that is exactly what this might be!

Nope...not food related.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Annaliisa Readman" <amvilppu@hotmail.com>

Fall*Glimmer*Sparkle*n*Fade
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Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Fredo A." <everfade79@...> wrote:
>
> I have found from a dog owner who gives raw food to her dog
> that when you start giving a dog raw food it goes through a
> detox process and part of this process is worms being
> expelled during a bowel movement.

Thats just one of those myths. Doesn't happen.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:20 pm ((PDT))

Would that be like 'reduced for a quick sale' due to being past their 'sell by' date?

Merril

> And like all dedicated shoppers, packs look for the deals, the
> closeouts, the introductory offers, the limited time only's. Except
> that their deals are elk slowed by circumstance or separated form the
> herd, their closeouts are the old and infirm, their introductory offers
> are the newly born, and for wolf packs limited time offers are seasonal
> windfall.
>
> And--like humans--wolves do pay. Often with their lives.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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3. Feeding Lamb
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:20 pm ((PDT))

I asked a friend about lamb, goat or pig farmers on the island here & she
told me that lamb specifically carry diseases & worms that will infect
dogs. I am looking for outlets for bulk food for all my dogs!
I told her that I would freeze it for a time before I fed but she rebutted
that a lamb farmer told her this & stood her ground.
Anyone here feed lamb? Or know what she is referring to?
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Hi everyone!
Posted by: "everfade79" everfade79@yahoo.com everfade79
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi All,
My name is Fredo and Im in Phoneix AZ. I have recently taken home a
beautiful Min Pin pup and Im interested in what diet would be best for
her. This is how I stumbled across information on raw feeding and it
intrigued me. I had been feeding that garbage Science Diet to her that
the vet gave me but I noticed right away she started getting dandruff
and was having to go to the bathroom way more than usual. I simply
wasnt happy with the food or the reaction my puppy was having from it.
Well Im definitely going the raw route with her and my two cats and I
have found plentiful information on the subject and what to feed
however I havent really found anything that covers what to feed a
puppy who is now going to be introduced to this diet for the first
time.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should offer up to her
first to get her warmed up to this? I have wanted a Min Pin for a long
time and I really want whats best for her so I want to be sure I start
this out right.
Thanks!

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "everfade79" <everfade79@...> wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should offer up to her
> first to get her warmed up to this?

Hi Fredo,
Congratulations on getting the puppy that you always wanted and on
researching what is best for your new girl. I would think that you
might want to start with a chicken breast. They have lots of meat and
nice and easy bones to chew. I would serve it at room temperature.
Just put it down, step back, and see what she does. Give her a little
time and if she seems confused you could slice the chicken open for
her to give her a dig in place to start. Let us know how her first
"real" meal goes, KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Hi everyone!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:22 pm ((PDT))

A few past messages about weaning/feeding puppies.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/137170

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "everfade79" <everfade79@yahoo.com>
I
have found plentiful information on the subject and what to feed
however I havent really found anything that covers what to feed a
puppy who is now going to be introduced to this diet for the first
time.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should offer up to her
first to get her warmed up to this? I have wanted a Min Pin for a long
time and I really want whats best for her so I want to be sure I start
this out right.

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

> My dogs loved beef liver and brain, but will not touch pork liver. Anyone with this or any >suggestions.

I do. Hi. Mine does the same thing.I mean,my dog eats pork liver without anything added to it but pork kidney, she never touch,never come closer if it were just as is. Maybe smell???

when I bought pork products;pork tongue,pork liver,pork kidney etc...I had to buy 10lb bucket because it was the smallest size I can get so,I cannot ditch the 10lb without trying anything let my dog eat it.

I tested her with raw egg;you put pork liver,pork kidney and pour raw Egg over it andlightely beaten it with spoon and serve.

If fed that way,she eats entoustically and finish off without any prob in a second.

Why don't you try mixing something your dog likes;tripe,Egg etc? Something that hasstronger smell may cut the porky smell I think.

My human nose can tell pork kidney and liver has stronger smell than beef liver or kidney..
Something distinctive.Maybe that is why your dog is acting like that.

If you try and no improvement,then,you can ditch the pork organs because there is no rule that dog must have pork organs.As long as your dog gets organ from other animals,maybe fine....

good luck,

yassy

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Messages in this topic (12)
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6a. Skin or not?
Posted by: "ri_bulldogs" ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com ri_bulldogs
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

We bought some chicken leg 1/4's at the meat market. We are curious as
to whether or not we should remove the skin before feeding to the
bulldogs. We did remove it for tonights meal as a precautionary
measure. We assumed that they should be fed 3/4 of a pound each this
evening. When the skin and fat is removed the meat loses a lot of
weight. So we added more meat and bone to make up for this. It seems
that with 7 bulldogs in the house perhaps fat and skin removal is not
economical. However would the pups get the runs from the fat and skin
as this would be their first completely raw meal?

Thanks for your help.
Becky

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Skin or not?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ri_bulldogs" <ri_bulldogs@...> wrote:
>However would the pups get the runs from the fat and skin
> as this would be their first completely raw meal?

Hi Becky,
While i can't make my answer a promise, my answer is probably not.
Most dogs can eat the skin and fat just fine as part of a first
chicken meal. Some can't, but i think they are the exception. Now
that you fed a meal with no skin/fat you have an advantage because you
can see how it goes before your next meal and if all is going well, no
loose stools, l'd leave the chicken as is for the next meal.
Nice to meet you and your bulldog crew, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Skin or not?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:15 pm ((PDT))

Becky,

I wouldn't remove skin or fat unless they have problems. Don't anticipate
them! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ri_bulldogs" <ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: Skin or not?
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

Becky I started feeding my pups ground up quarters, did not remove anything. They are over 8 wks now and eating the quarters with skin and all, same with turkey wings, pork hocks etc.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

I have read that older dog tend to get inactive compare to younger years,so,lower the daily intake (about 20% gradually) and lower the fat intake and do more excercise to maintain the healthy weight.

If thyroid was not prob for a dog,then,you could try that.

yassy

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8a. Re: Butchering help
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Andrea! That was just what I needed to know.
Mary Tinder
>
> Unless you have little bitty dogs I would ask for the goat in about
> seven pieces. The head/neck, left front leg/shoulder, right front
> leg/shoulder, left ribcage, right ribcage, left rear leg/butt, right
> rear leg/butt.

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

>Should I only be giving organ meat once a week or is it ok to give a small fraction everyday?

I give liver 3 times a week rotating between Beef,pork,chicken. I feed liver 3 times per week just because I giving my dog gizzard and poultry heart as side dish on other days. I rotate them in a week.

Heart can be muscle meat and if your dog does well torelated on it,then,you can feed big.

You can feed liver daily too in small amount(5% daily) if you prefer.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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9b. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sonja" <ladyver@...> wrote:
>
> I have a question to add onto this one....the ducks I get are really
boney. Would it be OK to supplement the boney duck with duck hearts?

Hi Sonja,
This is a perfect plan. Heart is an always a welcome addition to a
bony meal. Heart is a wonderful meal all by itself-remembering bowel
tolerance. Heart is great food and you certainly won't hurt her by
feeding lots of it. KathyM

Messages in this topic (8)
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9c. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I just wanted to ask for clarification - you said heart is easier to digest?
In comparison to liver? Or other meatymeats?

Thanks....

Dee

On 10/24/07, katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> You can make a whole meal out of heart if your dogs like heart and
> their bowels can tolerate it-heart seems to be easier for a dog in
> that respect. Mine love lamb hearts, and i will often feed them solo.
> Like Laura, i find it easier to give a smidgen of liver everyday. KathyM
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZWNlaWI3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc0MjM1MjYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDIxMDgwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE5MzI3NTE3MA-->
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9d. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/24/2007 9:20:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, "nkayl"
writes:

is it ok to give a small fraction everyday?

Since Gizzard and heart are more considered as meaty meat is that then
ok to give in larger doses everyday than say a liver or spleen?

*****
Yes, and yes. :)

It's safer to feed a little bit of organ at a time, in the beginning, but
not a lot--you don't want total organ over 10% of the total, over time.

Gizzards are pretty little unless the dog is, too--it's even gulpable for my
cats (who will gulp it down, throw it back up, stare at it, and re-eat it
more thoroughly). When I was first starting, I fed a lot of gizzards which came
packaged with the chicken hearts I wanted, and I fed a little heart nearly
every day. Once I got hold of beef hearts, I have been skipping gizzards and
feeding the beef. Heart like that is a little rich for a newbie, so you might
take building up to full meals of that, but boy, do my cats love it!

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (8)
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10a. Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you wer
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi,everybody. I have a question for you all.

I been buying "Eggland's best Egg" the white cartoned white eggs.

Those Eggs are quite fresh(delivered within 24-48hours after Eggsare laied) and they test their Egg weekly etc and care for their quality of Egg and health of chicken,and it tastes real good and I been buying.

but I saw 3 types of egg carton at store;all natural(caged),caged free,organic (free range).

I once bought cage-free,but palette did not torelate on it very well,so,I backed to white Egg(caged).

I was thinking that even if the carton says cage free,you never know that chicken really went outside and moved around and it could be an Egg from chicken that did not go outside at all.

And, caged one... I was wondering if the chicken above one chiciken could give droppings to chicken that live under...

Which Egg do you pick if you were me?

Below is reply from company on my inquiry.

============
Thanks for your interest in Egglandfs Best eggs and the care of our hens. We have three different products with three different management systems. Each has advantages and disadvantages as far as bird health and welfare are concerned. Our regular Eggland's Best eggs in the white carton are from caged hens and the Eggland's Best Cage-Free and Eggland's Best Organic are cage free. Eggland's Best Organic are also allowed outdoor access (free range), as environmental conditions permit. The cage-free environment offers greater freedom for movement. Cages are still the most prevalent housing system, since they offer the best dietary control, sanitation, ventilation, and freedom from dust and ammonia, plus the lowest mortality rate. Cages now provide significantly more space than they did a few years ago. Eggland's Best is committed to making every effort to ensure that all of our hens are in optimum health.

The free range environment has visual appeal and certainly offers greater freedom to roam. It also permits exposure to adverse weather conditions, disease-carrying wild birds, soil-borne and insect-borne diseases and parasites, and predators (foxes, hawks, cats, dogs, etc.). For any housing system used, farmers will make every effort to keep their birds healthy and comfortable, and also to ensure that the product they market is safe and sanitary. The survival of their business is dependent on maintaining healthy and sanitary practices, so it will always be a high priority.

Please write back if you have any other questions or comments.

=====

yassy

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10b. Re: Egg questions;which type of Eggs would you choose to feed if you
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:34 pm ((PDT))

> but I saw 3 types of egg carton at store;all natural(caged),caged
> free,organic (free range).

> Which Egg do you pick if you were me?

Yassy,

Animal welfare aside (the caged birds have very little space and I avoid
those on general principle), you have to keep in mind that all of these
choices are for eggs from birds that were fed what is essentially "chicken
kibble".

The ideal choice for eggs is from your local farmer who pastures his birds
where they can eat grass and bugs and what have you. Eggs from those birds
will be very different from your usual store-bought eggs.

http://www.localharvest.org/pastured-eggs.jsp

You can even see the difference - pastured eggs have a firm yolk that stands
up tall and is nearly a deep orange color. Not the pale yellow wimpy yolks
in commercially-raised eggs.

That said, if you cannot get locally-raised pastured eggs, I would go with
either the cage free or organic choices -

http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_07egglands

Just because of the whole caged bird versus uncaged issue.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. New with Questions
Posted by: "sherri_cappabianca" sherri_cappabianca@yahoo.com sherri_cappabianca
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I'm new to the group - trying to do some research before getting a
new golden retriever pup in December. I want to go raw, so I've been
reading a lot about raw diets on several websites, this and other
groups, and various books. In looking at raw diets, I'm having an
issue with the amount of antibiotics, hormones, and other junk
injected, fed, etc. to our human feed supply. Does this concern
anyone else? If so, how do you handle it? I did manage to find a
couple of local organic ranchers, but don't know yet how expensive
it will be to buy from them.

The other questions I have concern Pitcairn's book. He seems quite
knowledgeable, he's been doing it for a long time, and he advocates
feeding raw, but he makes some points about a prey diet that I would
like to have group members' opinions on.

- He states that "while a prey diet is closer to the natural diet,
it has the disadvantage of being too rich for inactive animals
(inactive compared with wolves who hunt for extended periods)".

- He also discusses the high chemical content in meat and bones due
to environmental contamination which he states is still present to
some degree in organic meat and bones.

- Then he goes on to talk about bones and the fact that lead is
deposited in bones and doesn't break down. He talks about the
excessive amount of lead in the bones of US cattle and therefore
human grade bone meal can't be derived from these cows.

His solution is (in addition to feeding organic wherever possible)
to add grains, veges and fruits, I think because he believes that by
reducing the amount of meat fed, it will reduce the risks stated
above.

I just want to do the right thing for my new pup, perhaps I'm over
thinking it. Any advice?

Thanks,

Sherri

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: Bone & raw meat meals?
Posted by: "iumadness64" iumadness64@yahoo.com iumadness64
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:11 pm ((PDT))

Trina,
I started about the same time as you did in switching my dog over to
the raw diet. At first, I was real nervous about the ratio of bone,
meat and organs. When I ran across the post that said to not make a
simple process difficult, it really made me realize that was exactly
what I was doing. Most people don't worry about what they put into
their own bodies. They don't follow the dietary recommendations
established for optimum human health...grains, dairy, meat, etc. I
don't have the vast experience behind me as these other posters, but I
will whole-heartily back what Bill Carnes and many others have stated.
Just keep it simple. Go slow if you want or need to. I only have one
dog so your household is definitely more complicated to feed than mine.
All the more reason to keep it as simple as possible IMO. Listen to
your heart. If you're like me, you know in your heart that feeding the
raw prey diet is the only path that really makes sense. Like I have
read...it isn't rocket science...just common sense. Best wishes for
you and your dogs.

Mark

Messages in this topic (6)
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13. Question: what is *appropriate prey diet* for hypothyroid doberman g
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

first off.. NOT my dog, but one that lives in this household.

first thought huge swelling was lymphoma, paperwork from rescue came LATE
(like 5 months after adoption was final) and it was hypothyroidism from the
start and not lymphoma

What foods? ratio? timetable would he need to get over the 2 wks of chemo
and help straighten this poor service dog doberman out?

owner still insists crap is better, BUT he isnt tolerating it. he LOVES
tripe and LOVES raw chicken.. but should he get other meats? and im
confused? not sure what to tell her

(chemo meds were cell specific, vincristine and L-Asparaginase and 50mg
prednisone)

due to my disability, im not able to read posts on the website. i have
enough trouble reading it here on gmail,
--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

By Believing, One Sees.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: Packaged raw diets (slightly OT)
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...>
wrote:
>
> Eh, I'm all about variety. There are some people who include
> a small bit of veggies with the raw diet and their dogs
> still thrive on it.

It's not the veggies they are thriving on, rather the meat, bones, and
organs.

> Regardless, even if wolves didn't eat veggies, some think
> the nutrients
> in veggies are still absorbed and beneficial to dogs.

Those are the same people who don't understand cellulose, dentation,
and digestive tracts.

You can find "some" who will think anything. There are "some" who
think the world is flat. There are "some" who think the moon landing
was staged. There are "some" who think we are being visited by aliens
from outer space. There are "some" who think dogs should eat veggies.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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15a. Re: Now what ? (repeating the question due to lack of response)
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

I don't know if my questions get lost in the usual drabble about the
consistency of poop or if veteran raw feeders are choosing not to
answer, as I have had SO MANY questions go completely unanswered in
the last six months while my dog and I suffer blindly.

So I am resending - purposefully - my entire original post looking
for direction with a sick dog (yet again, Keeshond, 4yrs old, 60lbs
no vaccinations since puppyhood).

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but every time I have asked a question
about this dog who is suddenly having problems with his raw diet I
only get silence. I am starting to feel - right or wrong - as if no
one wants to deal with or acknowledge this particular dog might
actually have a difficulty with a raw diet after 4yrs. Yes, he might
have died if he were a wolf and unable to eat what the pack was
eating. But he is NOT a wolf, he is my life companion and he is in
pain, vomitting and no one can or WILL guide me - not this list, not
my raw-feeding vet who just weakly says perhaps he should be on a
commercial kibble diet. What is someone who is wholeheartedly sold on
rawfeeding supposed to think when everyone just steps back and turns
their back???

I do not expect medical diagnosis, but I cannot believe that no one
will just flat out tell me if it is HEALTHY or not to keep a dog
strictly on poultry with no organ meat, fish, rabbit etc. For Gods
sake, if its not healthy then just say it. I'm sure other committed
rawfeeders will not turn away when their pets are thriving. And if
one or two who are on the fence walk away from the prospect, then so
be it.

So many of you take such a high-brow, sarcastic tone with newbies
trying to do right by their dog by EVEN seeking information on
rawfeeding while so many here are very good at making many of them
feel stupid. Where are the opinions when a long time (4yr poster)
needs help?

Frustrated and tired of the silence
Monica and Loki

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Monica" <mommyof2gals@...> wrote:
>
> Some of you might remember, my Loki started suffering from
> pancreatitis back in April after a nasty illness of unknown origin.
> It took until June to get it under control and was a nightmare
during
> those two months.
>
> We managed to keep it in check by carefully monitoring fat,
primarily
> by skinning his poultry.
>
> We finally tried adding back some liver yesterday, as I feel organ
> meat is essential to this diet. He had one *tiny* piece (less than
1"
> square - he is 60lbs) and he is back to having an upset tummy -
> tonight he refused dinner after acting sick all day, and just now
> vomitted - mostly water and bile. I have purposely only fed him
> skinned chicken quarters this week so I could gauge his reaction to
> the organ meat.
>
> If he continues to have an intolerance to organ meat and is limited
> on other meat he can eat, will he be nutrient deficient? I already
> cannot feed him lamb or veal anymore, he hates fish and rabbit and
> the only pork he can tolerate is heavily boned pieces like ribs or
> neck bones. His diet is basically chicken and turkey.
>
> I have complete faith in a well-rounded raw diet, but with
everything
> we've had to omit since April I am as worried as I was when he was
on
> premium kibble as a pup.
>
> And no, he hasn't had any vaccinations since he was a pup and
nothing
> else has changed but that little piece of liver.
>
> Thanks
> Monica and Loki
>

Messages in this topic (20)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12199

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: liebo1134
1b. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: chandler_baby
2b. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: Shannon Reed
2c. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

3.1. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3.2. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4b. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: (unknown)
From: Casey Post

6a. Another Organ Meat Question
From: nkayl
6b. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: Laura Atkinson
6c. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: katkellm
6d. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
From: Sonja

7a. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: moemahood@aol.com
7b. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Pup with worms
From: Annaliisa Readman
8b. Re: Pup with worms
From: brutus_buckley
8c. Re: Pup with worms
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Packaged raw diets (slightly OT)
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Blood in poo
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: A Meat Question
From: costrowski75

13. intro from nj
From: Maryellen

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "liebo1134" liebo1134@yahoo.com liebo1134
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

Hey Sandy,

Thanks for the response . . . a) where do i go about buying these whole chickens and b) what
does quarters exactly mean? Just cut them into 4 parts??? I'm kind of new to this and its
really scary . . .

Thanks,
Jeremy

Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jeremy,

You should be able to find whole chickens in any grocery store....and yes,
just cut them into 4 parts! You'll be a pro in no time! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "liebo1134" <liebo1134@yahoo.com>

Thanks for the response . . . a) where do i go about buying these whole
chickens and b) what
does quarters exactly mean? Just cut them into 4 parts??? I'm kind of new
to this and its
really scary . . .

Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:43 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "liebo1134" <liebo1134@...> wrote:
>
> a) where do i go about buying these whole chickens and b) what
> does quarters exactly mean? Just cut them into 4 parts???
> I'm kind of new to this and its really scary . . .
>
Jeremy,
You can do like I do and just buy chicken parts. I buy chicken leg
quarters at Walmart for about 47 cents/lb in 10 lb bags. A leg
quarter is a leg/thigh/partial back combo. It is all one piece and
is a good size to feed most dogs. I also buy chicken backs by the
case. They are a little more difficult to find. I get a small
independent grocery store to special order them for me.

I find buying pieces is a lot easier than cutting up whole
chickens. I have a whole chicken in the freezer that someone gave
me and I keep putting off feeding it cause I just don't want to go
to the trouble to cut it up. I also have a whole turkey that was
given to me and it is still just sitting there in the freezer.

Also quarters and backs are a good bit cheaper then whole chickens
and you don't have to cut them up.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

I feed 4 canines raw, 2 outside and 2 in their crates. The 2 outside
I will start feeding inside when the weather gets nasty. I will then
feed them on the vinyl table cloths. I hardly ever clean the vinyl or
the crates. The canines do a better job cleaning than I could. If I
do clean up after them, I use vinegar, safer for the dogs.

Good luck,

Roxane

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "Shannon Reed" clanreed@mac.com clanreed
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

I saw a photo once of 2 small dogs eating game hens in the bathtub. That would certainly
work for a Papillon and contain any mess you may be concerned about.

Doesn't work for me, as my Neapolitan Mastiffs just won't fit. Then again my clean up
consists of a good hand wash for myself and the dogs take care of the rest.

Shannon
www.basaltcanyonkennels.com

Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/24/2007 6:04:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, "serge
legault" writes:

I have a Papillon, so the bites would never be any bigger than a chicken
leg.

How messy will that meal be on the floors?

I remember giving a raw bone to another dog and having to wash the floor 20
minutes later and he was not finished yet.

****
Hi, Serge,

The first time my cats ate chicken legs, the fast one finished in 10 min.
and the slow one didn't quite get it all eaten but quit after about 20 min. Once
they got the hang of it, all 3 can down a chicken leg in 5 minutes. I'll bet
your dog will end up quicker than that--and soon.

I feed my cats on pieces of a linoleum table cloth, from which they
obligingly lick everything they can after they finish eating...I've never even
cleaned the table cloths with anything, and they've been in use for 6 months, now!

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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3.1. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:21 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/24/2007 8:26:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kaebruney@yahoo.com writes:

jut to clarify.. are we talking about green trips or the white tripe in
grocery stores?

Kae,

i NEVER feed or recommend grocery store tripe. Green Tripe is for dogs.. and
as Laura A said, there is no tripe in human food.. white or green.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (27)
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3.2. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:32 pm ((PDT))

Denise and David Spotila <brookside_casa@...> wrote:
>
> Is green tripe a significant source of Omega 3's or is it just a
trace amount?
*****
Not significant, probably more than trace but not enough to count on to
mediate a heavily O6 diet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (27)
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4a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:25 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/24/2007 7:06:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Marylibcke@hotmail.com writes:

My dogs loved beef liver and brain, but will not touch pork liver. Anyone
with this or any suggestions. They like chicken gizzards too.

Mary Anne,

Liver is liver.. if they don't like pork liver don't feed it.. beef liver,
sheep or lamb liver, chicken or turkey liver, goat liver.. my dogs have even
tried ostrich liver.

if they don't like one kind of liver.. it's no big deal.. liver doesn't even
need to be more than 5% of the overall diet.. so where and how many different
types of liver they eat just isn't an issue, just so long as they get liver.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:48 pm ((PDT))

Mary Anne Libcke <Marylibcke@...> wrote:
>
>
> My dogs loved beef liver and brain, but will not touch pork liver.
Anyone with this or any suggestions.
*****
So don't feed pork liver.
Who said you have to feed pork liver?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: (unknown)
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:31 pm ((PDT))

> My puppy and adults are eating a large variety, but mostly Primal premixed
> along with meaty bones.

Kathy,

Ah. That's most likely your problem - the Primal!

It contains parsley (along with other veggies) and parsley can act as a
diuretic. Not all animals are sensitive to this effect, but for those that
are, well, you're seeing what happens.

Skip the Primal, go with a proper whole food raw diet, and let's see if that
makes the difference for your little guy.

Casey

Messages in this topic (15)
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6a. Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

I guess I really just need some clarification. Should I only be giving
organ meat once a week or is it ok to give a small fraction everyday?

Since Gizzard and heart are more considered as meaty meat is that then
ok to give in larger doses everyday than say a liver or spleen?

Natalie, Patches, Bandit, and Jett

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

You give what works for your dog. I give a glop of organs most every day
(some days I forget...no big deal). If you give once a week, you'll be
giving in a larger quantity that could result in some messy clean up.
Again, no big deal (if you're not the one cleaning up).

I give entire meals of gizzards if that's what I thawed. Not often...but
when that's the bag I grab, that's what they get. Sucks to be the dog that
doesn't like gizzards that night :-)

On 10/24/07, nkayl <doglover72@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I guess I really just need some clarification. Should I only be giving
> organ meat once a week or is it ok to give a small fraction everyday?
>
> Since Gizzard and heart are more considered as meaty meat is that then
> ok to give in larger doses everyday than say a liver or spleen?
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote
> Since Gizzard and heart are more considered as meaty meat is that then
> ok to give in larger doses everyday than say a liver or spleen?

Hi Natalie,
You can make a whole meal out of heart if your dogs like heart and
their bowels can tolerate it-heart seems to be easier for a dog in
that respect. Mine love lamb hearts, and i will often feed them solo.
Like Laura, i find it easier to give a smidgen of liver everyday. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: Another Organ Meat Question
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

I have a question to add onto this one....the ducks I get are really boney. Would it be OK to supplement the boney duck with duck hearts? I know that hearts are considered meat, but I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate to feed a duck back and "pad" it with the hearts. This is for my sensitive lab and we're slowly working through one protein at a time. I've been feeding her like this for the past week with no ill effects, but wanted to make sure that frequent heart-heavy meals this month wouldn't affect her health.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

> I have a 12 year old beagle/GR mix that I adopted 1 year ago. When
> he was given to me he was on Iams weight management (heave) and
> weighed an extremely fluffy 50lbs. So he was switched immediately
> to raw. We went to his yearly check up and he has gained 13lbs!
> Now I swear he looks better than he did before, but my vet got on me
> about his weight gain.

Feed raw, check his thyroid. Your vet is remiss, to say the least, if
he has discounted this possibility.

Definitely have the thyroid checked, but from you description he has no other symptoms.? I have a beagle and we are constantly fighting the weight issue.? He is 6 1/2 and this year I did?a full blood panel and it showed everything was perfect.? I just need to be more careful measuring his food and getting him to exercise more.....

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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7b. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:14 pm ((PDT))

A full thyroid panel or just the one or two levels included in the normal
blood panel the vets run? In order to adequately diagnose and treat
hypothyroidism, you need to have the blood sent out to Dr. Dodds for the
full 6-panel thyroid test. Just one symptom is enough to warrant testing.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <moemahood@aol.com>
>
> Definitely have the thyroid checked, but from you description he has no
other symptoms.? I have a beagle and we are constantly fighting the weight
issue.? He is 6 1/2 and this year I did?a full blood panel and it showed
everything was perfect.? I just need to be more careful measuring his food
and getting him to exercise more.....

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. Pup with worms
Posted by: "Annaliisa Readman" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi all-

Well...we went out for a poo this morning in the raining ash (we are in san diego surrounded by fires but not in any danger) and out came what looked like a spaghetti bowl. Laila is 4 months and I know that puppies are prone to worms, especially ones like her that love to sneak in a munch of stray poo, but I just wanted to see what everyone's opinion was on whether or not it could be food related. She hasn't had any wild game only chicken, beef, eggs and fish (and the fish has all been frozen to kill parasites). We are treating the worms and didn't mention the raw food to the vet, but I just thought I would put the question out to this list. Thanks for all your wisdom and advice.

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila
_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:03 pm ((PDT))

Worms aren't contracted by a raw diet. Most worms common to puppies are
contracted via feces, ingesting fleas or passed on from the mother.
Here's a pretty good site explaining further.

http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/worms.html

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Pup with worms
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

Nope...not food related.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Annaliisa Readman" <amvilppu@hotmail.com>

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Raw vs. Kibble
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

"Mal Firth" <firth_malcolm@...> wrote:
> Carnivores go "shopping" every time they go out looking for something
> to catch and kill ;-)
*****
They really do.
They do not go after every critter that comes their way though they
will take advantage of opportunity (consider this the "unadvertised
special"). A pack may undertake a cursory chase but call it quits
before scoring (and this would be blowing off a store because parking
is really awful); an individual wolf may take off after an inattentive
bunny but mostly small prey is not a notable source of nutrition
(similar perhaps to a shopper deciding that a small steak really isn't
going to feed the family).

And like all dedicated shoppers, packs look for the deals, the
closeouts, the introductory offers, the limited time only's. Except
that their deals are elk slowed by circumstance or separated form the
herd, their closeouts are the old and infirm, their introductory offers
are the newly born, and for wolf packs limited time offers are seasonal
windfall.

And--like humans--wolves do pay. Often with their lives.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: Packaged raw diets (slightly OT)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:40 pm ((PDT))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:
>There are some people who include a small
> bit of veggies with the raw diet and their dogs still thrive on it.
*****
That a dog may thrive on "a small bit of veggies" is not an issue and
never has been. "A small bit of veggies" is no different,
substantively, than a small bit of table scraps or a small bit of
cheese or a small bit of cookie. A small bit is not worth discussing
much less debating. The people who feed one quarter of the diet as
veggies are the ones who need to reconsider what precisely their
intentions are. The people who include significant vegetation in
their dog's diet are misguided, one way or the other. And no, 25%
vegetation is not what dogs thrive on.

> Many people have written books about raw diets incorporating
veggies
> (or even grains) and claim their dogs live very long, healthy
lives.
*****
Claim. Good you included claim. I'd say the dogs survive despite
the diet, not because of it. You might as well use the same thinking
to defend kibble. Hey, dogs survive. I guess that means kibble is
healthy nutrition. Grains is grains, regardless of how they become
part of the diet. Inappropriate food is inappropriate food.

> No one really knows the best diet for a dog,
*****
But yes, I think we do. A diet appropriate to a species will always
be the best diet for that species. Dogs are wolves and we know from
the success of the species what is best for wolves; if what they ate
didn't sustain the species, the species would become extinct. It's
not that the best diet isn't known, it's that people have their own
agenda and for better or worse that's what determines the menu.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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11a. Re: Blood in poo
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

"Jennifer" <kali_moonwolf@...> wrote:
Do you think if I cut the bone up it
> would help, or give more meat so it slips out faster?
*****
Getting out "faster" generally results in food not being optimally
digested. Diarrhea is food getting out faster. You want food to take
precisely the amount of time it needs for optimal processing.

I suggest you don't fiddle. Don't cut the bones smaller--you want your
pup to chomp and wrassle with his meals. Generally you can never go
wrong with more meat, but at this moment in your rawfeeding history,
more meat might only produce loose stools which would spook you in the
other direction.

Since it sounds like the issue is already abating, I'd say continue on
as you are and watch for signs that the kid is adjusting. If you want
to add more meat, do it in increments, gently.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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12a. Re: A Meat Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

"totaly_his" <totaly_his@...> wrote:
>
> When I give a meat meal do I cut the meat off the bone or do I let her
> (30-lbs) rip the meat off the bone and them remove the bone?
*****
Yes.
Or no.

If the bone is for all intents and purposes inedible and the meat is
generous, let the dog do the work. There is hardly a better way for a
dog to get meat than by having to rip it from the bone.

If the bone is edible, then of course let the dog manage the whole
project.

If the bone is one of those personally iffy ones like pork chops or
bone-in chuck roasts or country style pork ribs, or if the bone is
pretty small or for whatever reason you just aren't comfortable with
its role in the meal, then cut the meat off and feed the meal as
meatymeat and be done with it. I give such trimmed bones to my cat for
further tidying up.

> thought I needed to give her JUST a meat meal
*****
No you do not.
You should always consider in some semi-conscious, subliminal way how
much meat you've been feeding and if the tally seems low, feed more
meat. You can add meat to a meal, you can make meat the meal. You can
do it one way one day and other way the next.

The point is: the diet should include a LOT of meat. How you get that
lovely stuff into your dog is completely open to interpretation. If
you can provide both protein and body part variety by feeding nothing
but meaty bones, do it. I mean, you'll probably not be able to
(especially with the liver and heart), but you can try and you never
know.

What's nice IMO about using prey as a guideline is that sometimes the
part is meaty and sometimes it's bony but when the whole dang thing has
been eaten, the result is quite a lot of meat has gone into the dog.

Also, does
> anybody worry about whether or not the organ meat that the dog eats
> could possibly be "diseased" ie heart,brains,lungs?
*****
If you buy organs from a source devoted to selling high quality
comestibles for human consumption, you can pretty much not worry about
disease, period. If you buy direct from ranchers and farmers and
fisherman and hunters you might want to educate yourself about
potential diseases. OTOH, wolves regularly remove from the herd the
weak and old and infirm, so it would seem that disease is not an issue
with the species.

Would I be able to
> tell if the organ was?
*****'
This summer a bunch of us with too much time on our hands (or not
enough money) got together to pluck chickens (consensus is it wasn't
worth it); one of the birds I butchered was a. bloated and b. the owner
of a really nasty looking liver. The bird was returned to the seller
who said from the looks of it the bird had hepatitis. I did not add
the bird to my hoard. My point is, a sick organ does not look
healthy. It looks diseased.

I think that unless you plan to get your meats from unreliable sources,
you are worrying too much.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. intro from nj
Posted by: "Maryellen" mprinces@ptd.net maryellen212
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

hi all, i am from northern nj, and have been feeding raw for a little over 6 months. i fed it a few years ago, but wasnt sure about it, and just started it again after doing more research. my 3 dogs eat half chickens, venison, turkey, beef, mackarel, sardines, elk, bison, tripe,rabbit, organ meats, any meats i can get that they like. .
Maryellen
Rufus CGC,TT,BBTD
www.collarmania.com
www.imageevent.com/princess21
www.ellaslead.com
http://wallacethepitbull.blip.tv/file/147911/
http://www.onetruemedia.com/otm_site/view_shared?p=a6931c2d4b6e86d97342c&skin_id=0&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url
http://www.theoasisofmysoul.com/

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12198

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: ginny wilken
1b. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Andrea
1c. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: Denise and David Spotila
1d. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
From: ginny wilken

2a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: ginny wilken
3b. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: Howard Salob
3c. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: carnesbill
3d. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: Sandee Lee
3e. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
From: pelle567

4a. Re: Hi - New Here!
From: temy1102

5a. Re: A Meat Question
From: katkellm
5b. Re: A Meat Question
From: Andrea

6a. Re: Blood in poo
From: Andrea

7. (no subject)
From: Kathy Roop

8a. Re: (unknown)
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Raw feeding clean up
From: serge legault
9b. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: Andrea
9c. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: marlena_adema
9d. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: carnesbill
9e. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: nkayl
9f. Re: Raw feeding clean up
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: liebo1134
10b. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: Sandee Lee
10c. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
From: Margaret Martell

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:39 am ((PDT))

On Oct 24, 2007, at 3:18 AM, Giselle wrote:

> Don't know nuthin' 'bout no amino acids, but this is what wiki has
> to say;
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid
> and about tripe;
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripe
> So, it says that the first three stomachs are used in people food,
> so I'm
> assuming that commercially processed tripe for dogs, either raw or
> cooked,
> is, at least in part, from the fourth stomach.
>
> TC
> Giselle

As Wiki says, most human-targeted tripe is the rumen or the
reticulum. My tripe supplier makes a point of using all four
stomachs. I've seen the cases of whole tripes as they are delivered,
and they are segregated and labeled: Rumen, Omasum, Reticulum, and
Abomasum.

Surely this has to put it incrementally closer to appropriate whole
prey.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

You are right about the white stuff, nutritionally it isn't worth
feeding. Green tripe isn't nutritious because it has stomach contents,
it has all the nutitious stuff that gets bleached out of the white
stuff. Bits of stomach contents just come along for the ride.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@ wrote:
>
> jut to clarify.. are we talking about green trips or the white
> tripe in grocery stores? i thought the white tripe in grocery
> stores was nutritionally void and the green trip contained some
> stomach contents thereby making it more nutritous?

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

Is green tripe a significant source of Omega 3's or is it just a trace amount?

David and Denise Spotila

Brookside Casa
Standard Poodles
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
E Roosevelt

----- Original Message ----
From: Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:11:50 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogro ups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@. ..> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogro ups.com, Morledzep@ wrote:
>
> jut to clarify.. are we talking about green trips or the white
> tripe in grocery stores? i thought the white tripe in grocery
> stores was nutritionally void and the green trip contained some
> stomach contents thereby making it more nutritous?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: while we're on the subject of tripe... what's the deal?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

On Oct 24, 2007, at 10:18 AM, Denise and David Spotila wrote:

> Is green tripe a significant source of Omega 3's or is it just a
> trace amount?
>
> David and Denise Spotila

If the cow was grassfed, then it's a normally appropriate source. If
not, then you need some other super source to offset it. We wouldn't
need supersources if all the prey ate right.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: When feeding organ meat question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:06 am ((PDT))

Mary Anne,

I have one dog that will not touch pork liver or heart....so he gets beef,
chicken, turkey organs. No big deal!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mary Anne Libcke" <Marylibcke@hotmail.com>

My dogs loved beef liver and brain, but will not touch pork liver. Anyone
with this or any suggestions. They like chicken gizzards too.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:08 am ((PDT))

On Oct 24, 2007, at 9:09 AM, pelle567 wrote:

Feed raw, check his thyroid. Your vet is remiss, to say the least, if
he has discounted this possibility.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

Dear Over weight Beagle/Gr owner,

What is his ideal weight suppose to be? Feed him that instead of 50 lb weight that he is. I agree get blood work with thyroid panel. Are you exercising him?

Sincerely,

Howard

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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:12 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pelle567" <krjoyner@...> wrote:
>
> We went to his yearly check up and he has gained 13lbs!

This raw feeder would feed less. It won't take long for the dog's
stomach to adjust to the new amounts and he will be fine. Right now,
he is training you.

Something to consider. He is replacing fat with muscle. Muscle is
heavier so eventhough he looks smaller, he still weighs more because
he has more muscle. He still needs to loose weight so feed less.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

Katie,

Most definitely get the thyroid checked on this guy. You'll need the full
6-panel test.....
Forms, instructions, prices, etc....
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/DrDoddsInstructions.htm

Trying to starve a dog into losing weight if it is caused by a medical
condition won't ever work!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. Re: Elderly dog gaining weight... (long post)
Posted by: "pelle567" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!

I had his old man blood work done when I first got him last November
and his levels were slightly raised; I wasn't planning oh having it
done for a couple more weeks because I'm a little tight, but I'll
get him in there Friday.

His exercise is slightly lacking right now because of the weather,
but only slightly...he still gets walks a few times a week. He
doesn't move very fast so a walk is fine for him.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Katie,
>
> Most definitely get the thyroid checked on this guy. You'll need
the full
> 6-panel test.....
> Forms, instructions, prices, etc....
> http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-
angels.com/DrDoddsInstructions.htm
>
> Trying to starve a dog into losing weight if it is caused by a
medical
> condition won't ever work!! :)
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Hi - New Here!
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

When I fed my Dobergirl kibble and rawhides, she had horrible breath
too, exactly like you described. She'd lick us and the spot would
smell like death until we'd wash it off. I'm pretty positive she
didn't have any dental problems, and it all cleared up with raw. Her
breath is fresh now although a little bloody smelling after meals.
She still gets bully sticks and will have bad breath after one of those.

-Tammy & Grover

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: A Meat Question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:12 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...> wrote:

>... thought I needed to give her JUST a meat meal sometimes.

Hi Jackie,
When i think of a meat only meal i think of heart, or tripe, or a
boneless roast. If it comes with a bone, by all means feed the bone.
If the roast is too big for one serving, even if it has a bone in it,
you can turn it into a boneless meal by letting your dog eat off the
roast until she has had her portion for the day, taking it away and
putting it in the fridge until the next meal. If you keep repeating
these boneless meals, depending on the size of the roast, you'll
eventually end up with a meaty/bone meal. No reason to waste the
bone. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: A Meat Question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))

> When I give a meat meal do I cut the meat off the bone or do I let her
> (30-lbs) rip the meat off the bone and them remove the bone?

I wouldn't take the time to remove the bone. For me, meaty meals are
hunks of meat that I get without bones in them to start with like
heart, tongue, or boneless roasts. When the dogs eat pork shoulder the
first time they eat of it they usually eat only meat, the second
feeding is when they get to the bone.

> thought I needed to give her JUST a meat meal sometimes.

Not really, if you have been feeding more bone heavy meals you could
either feed a boneless meal or add in some meals that are heavier on
meat than usual. When you are just starting out you shouldn't worry
much about adding meaty meals until you have introduced things like
beef, pork and heart. IMO it is too expensive and confusing for
newbies to add boneless breast or boneless thigh meat to "balance" out
the meat to bone ratio. Feed through a whole chicken and you'll be
fine. In the long run just keep in mind that chicken is a little heavy
on bone.

> does anybody worry about whether or not the organ meat that the dog
> eats could possibly be "diseased" ie heart,brains,lungs?

Nope. If an organ looks off you could toss it, but I've never come
across anything that worried me.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Blood in poo
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

You might feed meatier foods, but it will proabably go away pretty
quickly on it's own.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" <kali_moonwolf@...> wrote:

> Do you think if I cut the bone up it would help, or give more meat
> so it slips out faster?

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. (no subject)
Posted by: "Kathy Roop" naps2003@yahoo.com naps2003
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

Hi,
My puppy and adults are eating a large variety, but mostly Primal premixed along with meaty bones. I work at a Veterinary Hospital and the UA came back normal-no medical condition. I realize that raw food contains alot of moisture, however I am uneasy about withholding drinking water. He seems to have to urinate large volumes. What do you think?

Kathy

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: (unknown)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

Kathy,

My first recommendation would be to get rid of the Primal with it's array of
inappropriate ingredients. Could be something in the food causing
this....veggies, supplements?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Kathy Roop" <naps2003@yahoo.com>
> My puppy and adults are eating a large variety, but mostly Primal premixed
along with meaty bones. I work at a Veterinary Hospital and the UA came
back normal-no medical condition. I realize that raw food contains alot of
moisture, however I am uneasy about withholding drinking water. He seems
to have to urinate large volumes. What do you think?

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "serge legault" sergelegault126@yahoo.com sergelegault126
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT))

I am new and have not started raw feeding yet.

I have a Papillon, so the bites would never be any bigger than a chicken leg.

How messy will that meal be on the floors?

I remember giving a raw bone to another dog and having to wash the floor 20 minutes later and he was not finished yet.

Serge
Winnipeg, Manitoba

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Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

Feed on a towel or vinyl tablecloth so you don't have to fuss with
cleaning the floors. FWIW, I feed two ~60lb dogs on their dog beds and
only wash the beds when they get funky. Dogs are actually really clean
when they eat raw food.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, serge legault <sergelegault126@...>
wrote:

> I have a Papillon, so the bites would never be any bigger than a
> chicken leg. How messy will that meal be on the floors?

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:46 pm ((PDT))

I too am new to the raw diet and started my 6 mos. old Shepard mix on
chicken about 4 days ago. Like Serge, I am concerned about the clean
up demands. I've been reading that salmonella can be handled by our
canine companions, but what about us? I put a mat down for pooch to
eat her chicken on, but sometimes she drags in onto the floor. Just
how easy does salmonella grow and spread? Of course I practice
hygiene when handling raw chicken, but am I obliged to keep
disenfecting my kitchen, washing floors, everything I touch each time
she eats (2x/day)???

Marlena Mishriky
Venice, Florida

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

9d. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, serge legault <sergelegault126@...>
wrote:

> How messy will that meal be on the floors?

My two Great Danes eat on a carpeted floor and I never clean it. They
do a great job of cleaning up afther themselves. Then each goes to
the other's place and cleans some more. Probably the dog's eating
places are the cleanest floor I have. :) :) :)

It's common to worry about the mess before you begin raw feeding.
After a couple of weeks into it, you will see it's a non-issue.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

9e. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:51 pm ((PDT))

Love the vinyl tablecloth tip. I should have thought of that. I'm
very new to feeding raw also and have the floor issue too. I live in a
small apartment and feed my 3 dogs in the kitchen. My floor is a mess
afterwards. A large vinyl tablecloth would probably cover my whole
kitchen floor. Thank you!!!!!!

Natalie

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

9f. Re: Raw feeding clean up
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

Marlena,

Practicing normal hygiene, just as you are doing, is all that is necessary.
Salmonella is present everywhere regardless of what is being fed. Forget
the disinfectants...they are more harmful to you and your pets than
bacteria! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "marlena_adema" <marlena_adema@yahoo.ca>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "liebo1134" liebo1134@yahoo.com liebo1134
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:50 pm ((PDT))

Hey Denise thanks for the response . . . my boy is 75 lbs. so I guess the chicken drumsticks
were too small? Where would I go about getting chicken quarters and necks and stuff like
that? He chewed up the bone pretty well but i guess it was dangerous . . . how concerned do
i have to be about Achilles licking me while or after eating the raw chicken?

Thanks,
Jeremy

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

Jeremy,

The best way to do this is just buy a whole chicken and cut it into
quarters. Forget the necks...too small and bony! Sounds like he did fine
with the drumstick but bigger is better.

No worries about kisses...a raw dog's mouth is far healthier than kibble
fed.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "liebo1134" <liebo1134@yahoo.com>

Hey Denise thanks for the response . . . my boy is 75 lbs. so I guess the
chicken drumsticks
were too small? Where would I go about getting chicken quarters and necks
and stuff like
that? He chewed up the bone pretty well but i guess it was dangerous . . .
how concerned do
i have to be about Achilles licking me while or after eating the raw
chicken?

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

10c. Re: First time feeding raw and . . .
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

liebo1134 <liebo1134@yahoo.com> wrote: Hey Denise thanks for the response . . . my boy is 75 lbs. so I guess the chicken drumsticks
were too small? Where would I go about getting chicken quarters and necks and stuff like
that? He chewed up the bone pretty well but i guess it was dangerous . . . how concerned do
i have to be about Achilles licking me while or after eating the raw chicken?

Thanks,
Jeremy
********
Hi, Jeremy
I'm not Denise, but thought I'd respond.
You can just buy whole chickens and cut them in half or in to quarters. Necks by themselves tend to be too small and too boney for a meal...I'd feed a neck only if it was still attached to the bird.
Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about the licking factor after/while they eat. I've been feeding raw for over 2 years now and nothing has ever happened regarding "germs" or anything of the like and my dog is a huge licker.
Margaret & Zahra

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Messages in this topic (8)
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